The Fight You Didn’t Mean to Start: Why Conflict Escalates and How to Defuse It

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers.
Today we are going to talkabout explosions, those big
messy fights that many of ushave, but some people have a lot

(00:23):
more often.
And, um, I know we all know howunpleasant they are and how
sometimes scary and overwhelmingthey can be.
So we want to talk about how tohelp you get out of that cycle,
whether you're the exploder oryour loved one is.
Um could be going to kick itover to you because I know
you've got some really bigupdates on this topic, yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:44):
So I got some stuff for you guys, all you
little helpers dealing withemotional explosions.
Two things One is our freeguide to de-escalating emotional
explosions.
That's like an e-book that youcan download.
We'll link that in the shownotes.
And also we're launching theKulaMind Community on July 14th
and that is a place that wecould all connect and you can

(01:09):
learn from us directly how toset boundaries, manage intense
emotions, deal with crises.
So in the community there's alot of cool things.
There's a lot of resources, alot of just courses for you to
learn a little bit more anddelve a little bit more into the
topics that we talk about here,and there's a group course that

(01:31):
starts July 22nd.
So we're going to togetherlearning all the skills that we
talk about here.
So you get a lot of support, alot of guidance from us and a
lot of other great things.
So if you sign up before July14th, you get a 50% discount off
first month.
Uh, just go to coolamindcom KUL, a, m I N Dcom to check out a

(01:55):
little bit more, or?
Um, there's a link in the shownotes where you can talk to me a
little bit more about yourquestions, or just sign up.

Amazing .
How would you define anemotional explosion?
I feel like different peoplemight have really different
descriptions of this.

Yeah, I mean we've talked about all different
kinds of emotion dysregulation.
We talked about, you know,anxiety, or shutting down or
freezing.
I think we're talking right nowwith emotional explosions in
terms of anger, like conflictwithin a relationship.
You know you could talk aboutlike high conflicts, high

(02:43):
conflict couples and things likethat, but basically what we're
talking about it's like peoplewho go from zero to 60 all at
once, right, who maybe somethingsmall happens, like I know.
I've heard a lot.
I've heard a lot of peoplerecently talk about women,
talking about their husbands whoare struggling and who are like

(03:06):
normally are like steady, cooldudes, but lately you know, for
example, if they correct theirhusband about something they
were doing with the kids, likehow they're bathing them or
feeding them dinner, and thenthe husband will just snap and
we'll just it seems like youknow, coming from nothing, will
just like explode at the partner.

(03:28):
I'm just I'm saying this, youknow, making this gendered
because that's just who havetalked to me.
But there's also situationswhere, yeah, like some men have
seen their partners with BPD orsome other kind of emotion,
dysregulation just all of asudden shut down and, you know
out of nowhere, just be likecold and irritable and want

(03:51):
space, or maybe they're likeflying off the handle, running
away, yelling at the kids ormaybe sometimes getting violent.
So I think this what we'retalking about is like this you
know, these conflicts that justexplode out of nowhere and go
from you know nothing to likeextreme height of it, really
quickly.

I'm on episode 15 of the USA, love
Island, which was boring for 12straight episodes where nothing
happened, and then suddenly, inepisodes 13 and 14, there were
some explosions.

Oh my God, I mean don't go too much in this,
because one I want to see it andtwo we got to do an episode on
love island, so save, save the,save your gold nuggets for next
episode.
Okay, but okay it was oneexploding.

So we just just to be fair to the boys
, the women, the women explodeis it good, is it worth watching
?
No, it's incredibly boring for12 episodes and then it was
really good for 2 episodes andnow I don't know what's going to
happen, but I've never seen theother seasons.

Oh, like you don't know what's going to
happen, like it could go back tobeing boring.
Wait, you've seen Love Islandbefore.

No, I have not.

This is the first Love Island you've seen.
Yeah, oh, jacqueline.
Okay, all right.
Well then we're going to haveto do a whole education for you.
This is deep in the show.
This is like watching Pete's,like watching pete's season of
the bachelor, and that beingyour introduction to the, to the
bachelor.
Right, you gotta, you gotta seesome of the classics.

(05:32):
So, yeah, I do, because thisseason is not a good first, yeah
, first impression no, and itcame from the uk where, oh my
god, like they seem to have no,no awareness of social media.
They were just like unfiltered,like there was no rules or
regulations.
People just did all sorts ofstuff.

(05:52):
So we're, we're, we're, we'reall right.
I'm getting really pulled intothis topic, so we're definitely
going to have to do court aboutthis after.
But emotional explosions Okay,what?

at least what did you see in love
island that looked like anexplosion um, a woman being
upset that her man did not, uh,show that he was like valuing
her, like other guys were takingtheir girls on date I mean,
they were like making littlesurprises and hers wasn't, and

(06:29):
she exploded on him.
I feel like for that.
But then there was this overtime they started off really
strong and she clearly likereally bought into the
relationship and I think thoughtit was going to solve all of
her woes, you know, Um, and thenover time he started getting

(06:50):
annoyed with her and then, um,then there was this very
dramatic scene where, likeAmerica votes and they kind of
got like separated and shealmost got sent home and then he
didn't go comfort her, whichwas fucked up, in fairness, and
they kind of got like separatedand she almost got sent home and

(07:11):
then he didn't go comfort her,which was fucked up, in fairness
, Like he didn't check in on herat all after she almost got
sent home and like you know, andlike they got like separated.
So she, but what made itexplode?
I mean it was extremelyineffective communication, you
know what I mean.
She's like first of allexploding behind his back, but
he can hear it calling him abitch, like calling him names

(07:31):
and everything.
And then the next day they gotreally into it and she was, like
you know, like kind of likestalking him up and down the
villa and like screaming likefuck you, you're a bitch, You're
a fucking bitch at him, andstuff like that.
It was really enjoyable towatch.
I can't wait After 12 boringepisodes.

What is it with us?
Who like is it what's wrongwith us?
I feel like when I hear thatI'm like ooh, give me more of
that.
And like I really, I reallylike, oh, give me more of that.
And like I really, I reallylike drama.
You like drama too, but not asI don't know if as much as I do,
but like I just love emotionalexplosions.
Why is that like?

I'm gonna like we're gonna teach
people in cool of mine how tolike regulate them, but I also
kind of like love it, you knowyeah, well, I mean, for one
thing, I would say like I enjoythem less, maybe on shows like
the bachelor, where it's moreabout actually getting to know
the people and having, likewatching them have deeper
conversations and like actuallyhaving integrity is kind of

(08:37):
important to the show, becauseyou're watching a love story.
Love island is like a lot ofextremely shallow people and
you're not like listening toanything, you're not really
buying into it.
For the same reasons, like Ithink you're just wanting to see
drama.
But in terms of why we likedrama, I mean I think a, um, I

(08:59):
don't know, let me, let me tryto think of some things.
I mean one it can be kind ofcathartic to see somebody else
do the thing you're not allowedto do.
Um, I'm not going to explode onsomebody, I know that's going
to backfire, you know.
So, um, watching somebody elsedo it is kind of interesting.
But I think that we're, you know, we're a social species and we
are always looking to learnsocial lessons and emotional

(09:20):
lessons, and watching somebodyelse's catastrophic mistakes can
be um, a, it can reassure usthat we are doing a good job.
And B, I don't know.
I think there's somethingorganizing for us about seeing
like cause and effect ofpeople's like fucked up behavior
, um and.

(09:40):
But it's also just drama, right, like we like there's no
reality TV.
We might think is like a.
There's something shamefulabout liking that drama, but we,
if it were, you know, an Oscarnominated movie, it would also
have all the elements of comingtogether and conflict and
breaking apart and, you know,defeating obstacles and all of

(10:02):
that.

So I think there's part of it that's just
conflict's interesting I thinkyou're right, making a really
good point, that about thesocial norms, um, and what's
taboo.
And it's interesting, as youjust said, that I remember my
boyfriend um years and years ago, um, who I remember we were

(10:23):
watching a lot of British,british shows and I just was so
surprised by how all of them Imean if you even watch, like the
British, the office it reallyis like someone doing something
awkward or saying the wrongthing or upsetting people.

(10:45):
And I was like, was like why?
And they didn't resolve it,they didn't go.
Oh, he's actually a nice guy.
It's just like here's someawkward socially like mind blind
man and I was like why, why areall British shows like this?
And he said, well, we spend somuch time trying not to be like,
trying to be socially adept orrestrained that when, when it's

(11:10):
cathartic to see someone messingup, yeah, and that it's a
really interesting point aboutanger and explosions and
dysregulation in America,because a lot of people are
really angry Right, likepolitically, socially, just I
don't know, like just in theface of a lot of uncertainty and

(11:30):
a lot of change.
A lot of people feel angry andleft out and unseen, right, they
feel like forgotten, so theyfeel angry about it.
And then, but the expression ofanger is pretty taboo in the U?
S.
I mean, we're probably like alot spicier than other cultures,
definitely like compared tolike British or Japanese or

(11:52):
whatever.
But we I was trying to think oflike different ways that we
could express anger in likehealthier ways, and there really
is a very small, narrowtolerance for it.
Right, we quickly go to that'stoxic, that's abusive, that's
wrong, that makes you a badperson, and so there's a lot of

(12:15):
suppression of anger and then,maybe just that tension of
holding that in for so longmakes explosions a lot more like
, much more common right Likewhen you suppress emotion.
You get a lot more of likeoutburst when they build up.
And then it reinforces thatcycle right when someone bursts
out suddenly and in dramaticways.

(12:36):
Everyone's upset about it.
So maybe the whole likeemphasis on suppression and
control of anger is really likewhy we're all like exploding all
over the place.

Yeah, I mean, I think when you like, I
feel like I have gotten prettypunished every time I've
expressed anger, even more thanjust like a 3% level, like if

(13:08):
I'm a toad, if I'm frustrated,right Like I know I'm going to
lose ground, I know it's goingto backfire, it's going to it's.
It's you know and I do, and I'msensitive to it, right Like I,
you know, um, I don't likehaving anger directed at me
either, and I don't know if Iwould feel differently about it
if I felt like I could expressanger sometimes and not be left
or, you know, have to do so muchcleanup afterwards.

(13:31):
But I do think, like in asociety where you're not really
supposed to express anger, itcan also feel especially
threatening and scary if youreceive it Because it's like we
don't you know we don't do thishere.
What did I do to have you knowwe don't do this here.
Like, what did I do to have, youknow, engendered this response
from you?
And yeah, I mean reality TV islike one place we go to to see
it, but it's not like it goesdown well there.

Yeah, I mean that's the place that we could
do public shaming, right.
She exploded like oh, out ofcontrol, right, they're wrong
automatically.
Um, yeah, I, I, I mean I'vetalked about my anger, my
relationship with anger and howI'm a more like aggressive or
angry person.

(14:20):
Um, I even like like, oh, Iclassify myself right, identify
with the anger.
But when I was in high schooland younger, when I was dealing
with a lot of like childhoodchaos, um, I was, I mean I was
emotionally explosive.
I I definitely met criteria forBPD.

(14:40):
When I was in high school, Imean I had a boyfriend who we
were so explosive and highconflict that it was just like
every day was a drama.
It really we would havescreaming fights on the street.
I would like collapse intotears in the middle of, like New
York City.

(15:00):
We'd be in cabs and get into anargument and one person would
like run out at it, at it stops.
I mean like, really, like Iremember we had a fight once and
he was so mad at me that he wegot to a stoplight and he was
like you and literally left thecab like ran out of the cab,

(15:28):
fuck you.
And literally left the cab likeran out of the cab and just,
you know, just like completelyexplosive um and and like anger
feels good sometimes, like whenyou, when you have like it,
that's like the, the expressionof anger is reinforcing because
it feels good to get real, toscream, to yell, to like, you
know, to.
There's a feeling of like ooh,that was energizing, like I got

(15:53):
something off my chest.
It has like this relieving andenergizing feeling to it, so
that's why I like trauma.

I guess that's why I like trauma, I
guess.
Yeah, I mean, I'm kind ofthankful that this episode is
not going to be about me foronce, because I feel like it's
been a lot of me talkingrecently.
But that relationship did sounda little bit like my
relationship from 10 years ago,where he would explode on me in
the middle of the street and I'dbe sobbing and he'd like

(16:22):
pretend to stalk away at threein the morning and I'd be like I
was like 22 years old, had nomoney, and so I was just sort of
like smiling at that becauseit's in the past.

uh, it just occurred to me how similar those
ex-boyfriends were.
I mean, we've always talkedabout them, but they're similar,
they're like.
They're both like runningcompanies, like start my
founders.
They, you know.
They're both like handsome,wealthy, you know, maybe

(16:55):
narcissistic men.

Yours was 18 and mine was 38.
At the time, yours had a littlebit of a better excuse.

Yeah, totally that's true.
You're also a legit psycho.

I mean in terms of throwing gophers off
mountains and stuff.
Usually I shy away from usingthe term psycho in a mental
health podcast, but if you aregoing to throw gophers off of a
mountaintop, I think I'm goingto bring back that term.

Oh my.

God.

Did I ever tell you, did I ever talk about
the worst blow up we had On this?

podcast .

I almost like don't want to talk about it
Because it's so shameful for me.

No, I mean, I just know about the one.

Oh my god.

That you punched him or whatever and
everyone wanted you to leave,and then they drove you to the
airport and then he was likejust kidding, that was all fake.

Oh yeah, that was that fight.
Yeah, I'll talk about both ofthose.
So the one in italy oh yeah,that fight was when we were in
like another screaming fight,you know screaming fight and, um
, he called his family and spokein a different language and was

(18:03):
like basically I didn't knowthis at the time, but saying
like she broke my nose, um, andthe family it's actually unclear
if he was actually on the phone, because he was like, oh, they,
they.
He got off the phone and waslike okay, they're booking you
on a flight tomorrow back homeand they never want to see you
again and I was like I saw likewhat I was.

(18:25):
I so confused.
I was like crying and stuff.
And yeah, the next day wepacked up my suitcase and, you
know, started to hail a taxi toget to the airport.
And then he turned around andwas like that didn't really
happen, they don't know anything.

I was just kidding.

Yeah, so there was that.
And then, and then, um in highschool and this is really one of
my most like embarrassingstories, Uh, so it's actually
like rough to talk about it, butwe had been so high conflict
like, so dramatic, so explosiveum publicly that all of our

(19:08):
friends, you know, seen it.
And we were all like our wholesenior class was um on this like
major spring break trip, and sowe were all together, all
partying, and he and I had adinner at some point.
And he was like you know, Ithink you have mental health
issues.
And I was like, yeah, I think Ido.

(19:29):
I've been very depressed.
I, you know, like feel kind ofout of control, Like I feel
horrible all the time, I don'tknow what to do.
And he was really likesupportive.
He was like I love you, I wantto help you through this.
I understand that you've beenstruggling and we've been
fighting as a result.
Blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, yeah, and so wetalked about like how I'll get
more like talk to a psychiatrist, I don't know.

(19:51):
Like we just talked about it,Right, Like he was like you need
help, and so um, uh, I you know.
And then we were in the middleof the lobby with all of our
friends and we were planning onyou know whatever bar we're
going to go to, and we got intoan argument and then he stepped

(20:14):
back and screamed you'rementally ill and bipolar and
ruined my life because of it.
And everyone turned around andlooked at me and I was frozen.
I was like I mean, think oftalk about like shame.
I was like what the you know?

(20:34):
Like I just opened up to youlike and, but first and then I'm
like bipolar disorder.
That's not.
I don't have that, um, but noshame to people who do.
But I was just, you know, like.
It just was like he just likescreamed at me and was like, and
then kept going.
He kept like you're, you'reinsane, you admitted it.
Um, this is why everyone thinksyou're crazy.

(20:56):
Like just like public shaming,yeah, really fucked up.
And then I was frozen and theneveryone left and then I I
really like I blanked out.
I like I went into this likelike fugue state, where I was
like I need to talk to you, andI pulled him to the side and I
slapped him as hard as I could.

(21:17):
I really like popped him oneacross the face, um, which was
terrible, like terrible,terrible.
I regret that did this very day.
It was like my worst moment ofmy life.
Like I just slapped, slappedhim so hard that it even left a
mark on his face, like it.
It like made like side of hisface red, um, and then everyone

(21:40):
saw that and rumors abound andto this day, this is one of the
reasons why I like don't go tolike high school reunions.
I don't like to be in touchwith people from high school,
because people, like you know,saw my craziest, lowest moment,
where I just lost control of myemotions.

(22:02):
So there we go.
That's my explosive moment.

I'm sorry you feel so much shame
about that, obviously like wecan't condone physical violence
or anything.
It's also interesting, though.
I feel like if that were ascene in a movie, everyone would
be like rooting for you, likewe have different expectations
on screen versus in reality.
But I mean he emotionallyslapped the shit out of you.
I mean, no, I don't blame youfor being that angry.

Yeah, I mean I definitely blame myself for
how I handled it.
I spent so much time learningskills to manage that and manage
anger.
And then I also recognize,looking back, that there were
many things that he was doing tolike set me off.
And this is hard to say becauseit's like I don't want to say,

(22:56):
well, it's his fault or he'sresponsible for the way I acted.
But looking back, he, he, hedid.
I don't know if he sometimesintentionally looked like he was
trying to get a rise out of me,like that.
That night seemed weird, likelike I'm, I'm saying like a
dinner two minutes before wherewe're talking, and he was like
being so comforting andempathetic and then like

(23:20):
launching into everything wetalked about very publicly and
shaming.
And then he would also sayother things other times like
that he had like he prayed thatmy plane would crash and then
like when I would cry at that,he would laugh at me.
So just stuff like that where,like I, I think that I was
emotionally volatile and thenthere was dynamics that they're

(23:47):
trying to be as professional andbalanced as possible, but like
it was, it was pretty bananas,like that's not normal no, no,
it wasn't no, no, actually.
Like when he, when I startedcrying when he told me he wished
that I would die into playingbrash, he was like why are you
so sensitive, god?
This is why you have like, whyare you so sensitive, god?
This is why you have all theseproblems.
You're so sensitive.

(24:08):
I was just kidding.

I mean I'm so sorry you got that shame
and like fuck that guy.
I mean that's just not normalbehavior.
I'm not allowed to say hedeserved it.
But it's hard for me not tothink it.

I mean, this person is now becoming a wildly
successful startup CEO, so justkeep that in mind guys, when you
look on LinkedIn.
Yeah, anyway, sorry gettingdeep, all right, let's you know
like get professional.

What causes blowups?
Okay, yeah, so what causesblowups?
So I think it's a difficultquestion to answer.
I mean, I think there are likethings that one person can do
that can make it blow up morelikely in the other person, but
it's it's hard to put that allon them.
I mean, I think a lot of timespeople have blows because you

(25:12):
know they don't have skills, ormaybe they are from a culture
where it's more acceptable, umor um, it's what was modeled for
them, right, or it's.
You know, like I I saw a couplewhere you know I work at the VA
and like there were a lot ofexplosions in part just because,
like after you are in themilitary, especially in combat,

(25:35):
your baseline nervous system islike I mean your blood pressure,
you know, high, right.
So if you are like in PTSD,right, there are a lot of blow
ups because your nervous systemis already so frayed and like
you're ready for, you know, like, attack at any time that it
just takes a millisecond to like, it just takes a little
something to like put you overthe edge.

(25:56):
So I mean I think there aretons of tons of different
reasons for it and some are moreacceptable than others.
I mean, I have to say likewe're talking about how it
doesn't feel socially acceptablein America to explode or to
express anger.
But it's hard to argue with alittle bit because a lot of
times anger is expressed morevociferously, it involves name

(26:21):
calling or aggressive posturingright or like shouting, shouting
over another person.
So it's kind of hard to likethink of.
You know, are we suppressing ittoo much?
Or is it because thosebehaviors are pretty not OK?

(26:41):
I don't know.

Yeah, and I'm wondering why it's so hard for
us to get angry and not get tolow blows Like.
Why is it so hard?
Like?
What we're really talking abouthere is a lot of people will
get angry with each other forbehavior.
Right Like I was upset at thethings that he said in public in

(27:07):
front of our friends, and whenyou get that explosive, it could
feel like this person's bad andI'm fighting against a bad
person.
I'm fighting against a bad guy,right and like.
Instead of being like I'm angryat what you did, it really can

(27:29):
become like you're a bad, you'retoxic, you're a bad person.
Right, Like, so it gets.
It gets into these biggerlevels where you're just.
It's just like almost like itfeels like defending your honor
or values or personhood againstsomeone else's who is like a
threat to that.

Yeah, I mean, well, when you're angry,
I mean there is a dehumanizingelement to it.
I think there is a dehumanizingelement to it.
I think, like, if you feelentitled to explode at another
person, then it seems as thoughyou feel entitled to aggress
against them in some way to makethem small, to assert your

(28:12):
dominance over them, their powerand I don't know how.
Yeah, I mean, I think that, youknow, making character attacks
is a natural consequence of, youknow, feeling like you're
justified in behaving that way.
You know, and there also mightbe some catharsis in saying the

(28:48):
little thoughts that you alwayshave to push down because
they're not quite justifiable orthey're not quite effective
enough, and so just being ableto unleash them all is like that
is what feels good, I mean.

I think you can certainly effectively
express anger, but I don't knowthat you can effectively explode
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it, it, it,the whole, like I mean.
Emotions love themselves, and assoon as you feel something, it
like your mind will just attachto all the different things that
will confirm that feeling.
So when you're angry at I'mangry at this behavior, it

(29:20):
quickly becomes.
You always do this and yourmind will figure out and fixate
on all the things that are inline with that behavior to show
that it's a pattern, and then itshows a character trait.
You are always doing this, youare crazy, you are whatever, and
then it just like amplifies theanger so you feel like more
justified.
It's being like what you saidreally hurt my feelings to this

(29:44):
degree um yeah.
So the power thing isinteresting too.
I feel like like maybe this isamericans, maybe this is
everyone in the world, but likethe idea of what we have power
over or control over is reallyreally tough.
Like it's do you have controlover your job?

(30:07):
Do you have control overwhether people are racist
against you or not?
Do you have control over yourrelationships and your children?
Like, do I have control over myfuture and whether we could
afford a house or get into worldwar three?
Like there's a lot of thingsthat we're like uh, like there
are.
We get the sense that there'slike powers that be, aka the

(30:28):
government or you know whateverthat feel out of our control and
it's really hard to understand.
What is is our in control.
What is in our control issometimes like the people who
are attached to right likesometimes it feels like some
people mistake it for intimacywhere, like I, can be my true

(30:49):
self around this person, likethis, this partner, my wife, my
kids or whatever like I have to.
I have to perform and keep itall in in the world but I can
really let loose and be my true,like unfiltered self around my
family which means that I'm like, sometimes the worst self

(31:10):
around them, so the explosionsometimes are confused as like I
could be my authentic selfaround, around these people.

Yes, I think Linehan did a good job
flipping the script on that,where she made wise mind your
true self.
She made, like you know yourwisdom, right.
Your your best self.
Your true self and is like youknow these other parts of you.
That's maybe like emotionrunning a show or, but that's
not actually the values led Like, um, you know, like I I

(31:43):
wouldn't say that me explodingin rage is my true self.
I would say that, like me beingthe person that makes me proud
of myself is my true selfbecause it's who I want to be,
it's who I strive to be, it'swho I believe in, right, but I
do think that, yeah, a lot ofpeople feel like the ultimate
would just just be able to likenot have to think about how you

(32:06):
present or are in relation toothers.
Um, and you know, I meanthere's something to that like
that's more maybe who I am with,like my mom, maybe like I can
be more annoying to her thanother people, but I don't really
know that that feels like mytrue self.
That just feels like I havepermission to be kind of a dick

(32:28):
sometimes because she'll love meanyway.

I mean, but that's interesting.
That's interesting like howpeople feel like their base
emotions or the unfilteredemotion, unregulated emotions,
that feels like who theyauthentically are.
I think that there's researchthat talks about authenticity
and a lot of people, um, whenthey're asked what's my
authentic self, they will say myauthentic self is the way I act

(32:56):
and who I am when I don't haveto think about it, when I don't
have to like, control or manageor exert effort to be.
It's just like a spontaneous,almost like automatic behavior
and for a lot of people that isjust the way they are.
When they're like emotional,when they feel like a kid, where
they feel like you know and thewhole like how can I express my

(33:18):
anger in ways that is effectiveand balances, like compassion
for the other person, that couldfeel like not their true self
because it's like effortfulright.

Right.

But I think you're right that, like these,
long term goals and values arealso who we are authentically.

But anyway, you know, I kind of have
these questions about.
When people say masking, like Ihave to mask a lot, I'm like,
well, duh, I mean, is that a badthing though?
Like, what are we, you know?
And like I, you know, Iappreciate internal family
systems too for saying like, no,we're a series of parts and and
the the true self.

(33:56):
There's a sense of the trueself there too, but it is also
the self that is more connectedwith maturity values.
You know, like, if we thinkabout right, like are we more
our true selves when we areinhabiting our prefrontal cortex
or our lizard brain, like ouramygdala, like what people say,

(34:16):
and I think most people wouldsay the pfc, but yet, yeah, and
of course it is great to feelnatural and be natural with
another person, but, um, thatfeels, that feels different than
the, than the, you know beingentitled to just unleash yeah,

(34:36):
yeah, I I am.

Maybe I'm just affected by conversations
I've had with our clients whohave said, who struggle with a
partner with emotiondysregulation, who have anger
outbursts, and they're they'llbe like you know, the way you
exploded on me, uh was awful, Iyou know, like can you, you do
something different?
And then the partner who's moreexplosive will be like, well,

(35:01):
now I can't be my true self.
Now you're saying that I can'tbe express my feelings right and
like my feelings are, and now Ihave to hold myself in.
Um, so this it's justinteresting to think about, like
how some explosive and highconflict couples or just like
explosive relationships areabout.

(35:21):
Like, oh, I feel like I could.
Just I'm here and, like a fan,I have a fantasy and wish that
you would love me so much that Ican act however I wanted to,
and you still love me and behere, right, yeah.

I mean that sounds great, but I mean
really think about, like, whatan explosion is.
I mean, you know, working withcouples like high conflict
couples if I have, you know, acouple where, like the man
explodes a lot, then there arenervous system consequences at
the very least for the otherpartner.

(35:54):
I'm choosing man here becausemen, um, men are like physically
bigger, um, and have the likeability to aggress more, and so
I think this is just like abetter illustration of my point.
But obviously it can work bothways.
But if you've got a six, threegiant dude yelling at you right,
like even if they're not sayinganything insulting, then that's

(36:15):
going to really just regulatethe other person's nervous
system.
It's going to throw them intofight or flight or freeze,
really probably more likely, youknow it's.
It's gonna make it really hardto feel safe and it's like is
that what it means to beyourself, like, is that who?
Is that what you want yourpartner accepting and like
loving about you?

(36:35):
Right, is your ability to makeher feel scared and threatened
yeah, I mean it's.

I mean doing what you did before.
To be fair to the, to the menum, I have a previous study that
shows that men and women areequally likely to um perpetrate
intimate partner violence.
But we might not.
They might have a different likeimpact on the partner.
If, like a small woman is likeslapping their husband versus

(37:04):
like a six three girl, you know,man, but yeah, I think I just
imagine that if you're in aclose relate, like that
attachment bond, not just like afriend or someone you're dating
, but like attachment bond, notjust like a friend or someone
you're dating, but like I'mmarried to them.
This is my family.
Now you might have this fantasyof of what you would get from a
parent which, oh my god, now.

(37:26):
Now my son is like in TantrumCity, like he is now pushing the
boundaries and he was likethrash and kick and scream when
he doesn't get what he wants.
And I'm going to, I'm not goingto.
You know, I'm not scared, I'mnot like I'm kind of overwhelmed
, but like I got to love him,I'm loving him and I'm staying

(37:47):
steady and I'm staying there forhim, like through the ups and
downs, right, and so you're kindof like, oh, that's what love
should be, or that's what I wantto get.
Is this unconditional?

I can act out and explode and you'll
still love me and be there yeah,I mean and this brings me we've
had this conversation so manytimes right where I don't but
like I think people are lookingfor is parental love, and I
think a lot of people whohaven't had good parental love
it fucking sucks because theyare missing out on something.
They are missing out on youknow what it's like to know that
you could explode.

(38:18):
And I mean I asked, I asked, Ilike, I did this Instagram poll
and I asked Jason this all thetime it's like if your kid
murdered someone, would you turnthem in or help them hide the
body?
Like parents, you know, likethey the.
The idea that you could do theworst, the worst of human
behavior and still be loved Likethat is special.

(38:40):
I just don't think it'sappropriate for our partners or
friends.

Yeah, I mean you're right.
So what are the differentthings that can escalate
conflict Like?
What are the?
What are the missteps besidesfor screaming about my mental
health status in front of my?

entire senior class.

What else could possibly lead to an
explosion?

Yeah, I mean so many things.
I think ticket item ischaracter attacks.
I mean that's going to be thefastest one to get there.
But you know, I also think,like explaining people's
behavior to them can be reallyunpleasant.
Like what?
Because that's what we tellpeople.
No, I mean like you came homelate because you don't care

(39:37):
about me.

I mean like.
I mean like you, like you camehome late because you don't care
about me.
Oh, like making like uminferences, and like making like
like accusatory, um makingaccusations, and and um, uh,
what do you call it?
Like interpretations based ontheir behavior.

Yeah, but that's not necessarily.
I mean, that's kind of acharacter attack, but it's not
necessarily a character attack,but it's not necessarily a
character attack.
It could be like you, you know,like you talk to that girl at
the bar because you know, likeyou're not, you're losing
interest in me or something Likethat's not a character attack,
but it would still kind of pissthe other person off.

(40:13):
If it's not true, it's not true.
So I just think like explainingpeople's behavior to them using
your own interpretation is justopens the door for that person
to then say no, that's not true,and like how dare you tell me
who I am?
Or like why I do the thingsthat I do.

Mm, hmm, it's , it's I'm trying to think about
.
I'm trying to think about thison the spot it's.
It's like the shift, thismindset shift, of going from I'm
we're working towards asolution to a problem together,

(40:50):
like a collaborative problemsolving mindset, to one of like
war, of like this is my enemy.
And this enemy is here as athreat to what I believe in,
what I, who I am, what I standfor.
Right, it's like you don't careabout me, right, it's.

(41:11):
That's different than like whenyou do this, I feel this.
It makes me feel this like whatI want is that right, that's
like a problem solving, let'swork through it.
Versus like I've slammed thedoor, I've I.
I am characterizing you as aperson who is on the outs and
I'm gonna I'm gonna treat you assuch, right?

I'm trying to think about, like,
what happens when people explodethat deeply and dehumanizes the
other person yeah, well, I mean, this is why shame is such an
easy trigger for for explosions,because shame feels.
When you feel shame, you feelas though you are dehumanized
and so in order to write thescales again, right, then you
have to like tear down the otherperson.
Um, so you know, anythingthat's going to elicit shame you

(41:56):
should be careful about,basically about how you, how you
go about that.
Um, I think traditionally wetell people to make I statements
, but I statements even can lookreally different depending on
what they are right, like the Istatement you know, I feel like
you don't care about me isbetter than you don't care about

(42:18):
me.
But it also kind of just putsan I feel in front of a
statement about the other person.
You know, I think a more obviousone would be like I feel like
you're inconsiderate, or I feellike you were being
inconsiderate.
You know it's better thansaying you were definitely
objectively inconsiderate, butit still is going to like bring

(42:39):
up shame in the other person.
Um, chat gpt gave a good uhexample where, instead of being
like I feel disrespected whenyou cut me off, saying I feel
disrespected when I'm cut off orsomething like that, it keeps

(43:00):
the focus on the I instead ofbringing into the Now.
Obviously, you can't never callout another person for their
behavior.
You can't be that perfect allthe time, but as much as you can
, I think keeping it to yourside of the street is going to
be helpful.

Mm-hmm, can I think keeping it to your side
of the street is going to behelpful?
Yeah, the side of the street isso subtle because it there's
different ways to do it.
It's not just the words, it'salso like tone and intention
where this I statement, which isyou know, a solution to the
conflict is um, uh, it's like isI'm going to own my side of it,
right?

And I'm going to.

I'm going to acknowledge that I have a side
of it, but also acknowledge thatyou also have a side of it.
So if I say I feel like youdon't care about me versus like
you know, when you do this, itmay, it brings up all the stuff
in me, it makes me feel likelike you don't care about me and
no.

I know.
I know, I know and I'm tryingto.

I'm trying to like shift the way I'm thinking
about it, where I'm justcompletely owning it, versus
like saying let's say, you don'thear back from somebody for a
while, right, so instead of Ifeel like you didn't respond to
me because you don't care aboutme, or like I feel like you
don't care about me when youdon't respond.

It could be when people don't
respond to me, I can feelinsecure that they don't like me
or they don't want me orsomething like that.
Right, like it's about.
It's about me.
The other person can't arguewith that.
It's about me.

The other person can't argue with that.
I mean, we could also make itmore precise in the relationship
where it's like when you don'tcall me, I wonder if you even
care.
And where my mind goes to youknow, thoughts about, like you,
not caring about me, right,because it might be we don't
want to.
You wouldn't want to take ittoo far and be like I'm an

(45:00):
insecure person and when youknow for everyone who does this,
not just you, don't worry aboutit, right?
It's like I don't know, likethis is, this is the pattern and
this is how I'm reacting to it.

I mean, yeah, it's just like it's not
wrong to say when you do this, Ifeel like you don't care about
me, like that might need to besaid.
It's just that if your aim isto not bring up explosiveness or
defensiveness in the otherperson, keeping it on your side
of the street as much aspossible is going to benefit
that.
But sometimes making anotherperson mad is okay, right, like

(45:37):
it's worth it.
Basically.

They need to know how their behavior affects
you.
You know another thing that Iwas thinking about that leads to
explosions and leads to, likethis, really intense anger.
I'm trying to work it out outloud right now, but the feeling
that you could do somethingabout it, like the helplessness,
and the feeling you don't haveagency and this is just the way

(46:02):
it is and it's bad, yeah, for me, leads to so much more intense
emotion.
I'm thinking about, like aconflict that I have with my
mother and I've said severaltimes, like the way you say
things or the way you like curseme out when blah, blah, blah,
like that, that really upset meand made me like not want to see

(46:22):
you um and I try to do all myclinical skills of, like you
know, um validating, blah, blah,pointing out to the direct
behavior.
But my hypothesis is that shedoesn't.
She doesn't have enoughawareness or control over her
behavior, so she goes so to seethat this is something that she

(46:42):
can change and do somethingabout, because she'll be like
well then, you just hate me, youjust hate who I am, and I will
say no, I hate what you did or Ihate what you said, but if you
don't feel like that, you canreally have control over
something.
Like if you don't feel like theway you say things is a skill or
something you could work on.

(47:02):
You might take that as a like alittle bit more of an attack of
my personhood, because it feelslike something that I,
something I just am and I can'tcontrol.

Right, I think, yeah for sure.
I think, yeah for sure.

Um, I would feel I probably feel that way
about like ADHD type stuff,where I was thinking if I, if I
said like like you come late tothings versus like you have ADHD
, right, those are the twodifferent like I'm, I imagine
that it would lead to twodifferent reactions in you of
like you know eitherhelplessness.
Of like I'm being attacked.
I don't know you.
You, you tell me you come lateto things.

I do think that I think that, like,
emotional immaturity really canleave some people helpless to
change their behavior, and so,when that behavior is called out
, it can feel really threatening, um, and it can feel like a
character attack, because maybeit kind of is, maybe that

(48:09):
behavior is kind of part of yourcurrent character.
Like, if you don't have theability to change it, then, uh,
I don't know, maybe that's whoyou are and you know.
For I personally believe if youwork hard with a therapist, yes
, you can change it, but I cansee how it would feel like
that's as you know, that's asgood as it's going to get, and I
think ADHD can kind of feellike that sometimes.
Right, like, um, if people aregetting mad at me for being

(48:33):
disorganized all the time, thenI can start feeling helpless
about that and feeling like,yeah, there's not that much I
can do about it.
Of course there is, but it canfeel as though there's not that
much I can do about it, and thenI might be more sensitive to it
or something that's interesting, but I don't think.

(48:55):
I don't think that shame is theonly reason people get mad at
other people, right?
I think unfairness is a big one.
If I blame you for something Ido all the time, that's not
necessarily going to standards,yeah definitely.

And also, like we talk a lot about this,
but invalidation, right, it'slike when you are at such a high
level of emotion, does thishappen any other place?
I think anger is one of thosethings, like fights are one of

(49:43):
those things that it really canbounce off someone else's anger.
Like you really escalate eachother's anger quickly, cause I'm
thinking about any otheremotion, like if I'm feeling
really ashamed, it's notnecessarily going to trigger
shame in you, right?
If I'm like, oh, I feel soembarrassed, you're not going to
trigger shame in you, right?
If I'm like, oh, I feel soembarrassed, you're not going to
be like me too.
Now, like it's like, but like I, I think anchor is one of those

(50:04):
things that it's just likebecause it's like this fight,
you know.
Response um you could reallylike bounce off each other
really quickly and explode, andwhen that happens, then you're
both at max dysregulation, like,like intense levels of emotion,
the same emotion, and when wewe know when we're in intense

(50:24):
emotion, we turn our attentioninwards, so we are more thinking
about survival.
And how do I feel better thanlike, oh, it's two of us and
we're in like, let me thinkflexibly about your perspective.
My perspective it's like no, no, no, my mind is narrowing on
what's going to make me feelbetter.
So you have two people justlike focusing on themselves,
like at each other yeah, I mean.

That's why the reframe of like it's us
against the problem is so muchhealthier than like it's us, you
, it's me against you, if youcan figure out even the reframe
into and I saw this in yournotes but like the reframe into
it's us against the problem ofour communication, which is

(51:11):
different than like it's usagainst our housing crisis.
It's like this is about us,like it is about how we're bad,
you know how we're, we're noteffective, um, in communication
with each other.
But still it can be reframed tooh gosh, we love each other.
But this thing comes up betweenus.
It's so hard to figure out andhere it is again and like let's

(51:33):
you know, let's like work onthat yeah, that a like a little
nugget of wisdom fromemotionally focused therapy and
family systems therapy likecouples and family therapy is
framing it like you're dealingwith a common enemy which is one
of the strategies for gettingpeople to bond is get another

(51:54):
common enemy.

So the idea of like instead of you're the
problem, but this cycle is theproblem.
This dynamic is the problem.
How do we break this together,right?
Oh, the cycle's here again.
Let's battle against thatinstead of each other.
Yeah, it's nice.

What are other reasons?
So I think unfairness is a bigone.
I think that we as a species,even though life is inherently
unfair, there is something in usthat's important to keep trying
to write the scales of justice,to make sure that, because if
we can, I think, have as fair ofa society as possible, then you
know that's probably a goodthing.

(52:35):
You know that's probably a goodthing, and so I think we can
balk at that.
I also think sometimes we canjust get mad that something
isn't changing, like I thinkXenopil from Love Island was
this, this guy who did not getexplosive but he did clearly
like stop liking her and getlike pissed was.

(52:59):
She was just always like kindof nagging him about a certain
thing or like always treatinghim she's like good boy, like
good job, as if he was like alittle kid, and I don't think
that actually brought up shamein him.
I think that that was juststraight up pissing him off like
you're not gonna treat me thatway, you're not stopping.

(53:21):
I feel I feel dogged and likepursued in a way, like I can't,
this thing won't go away.
It's like you know, if amosquito keeps biting you you're
gonna get pissed.

So sometimes, then, it's just that problem
yeah, I mean we could talk aboutthe we about this before, but
bringing up the Gottman, johnGottman, the couples researcher,
in this Four Horsemen FourHorsemen are the things that
like ruin a relationship andit's criticism, defensiveness,

(53:52):
contempt and stonewalling.
So these are all different waysof not letting the other person
in, like shutting the personout, but also especially
contempt and criticism, alsodefensiveness, but these are all
things of that are alldifferent ways that people might
put the bad stuff in the otherperson, like blame the other

(54:17):
person for all the bad and thenbecause of that, you become like
superior.
So it's like these powerdynamics that we talk about,
where, if you're saying likegood boy, that really that's
like it's a little contempt,right, that might be like nice,
but it really does communicateLike I think I'm better than you

(54:38):
.
I'm above you and you're notequal to me, you all, you have
all the bad stuff that I have tocorrect, and I'm the voice of
reason.
So that that's, that's a really, you know, quick way to ignite
some fires.

Yeah, it's like I never want to tell
my friends that I'm proud ofthem, because that feels like
you know what I mean.
So I'll usually say like I'mimpressed or something.
Like they just like change itto more of a relationship of
equals.
That's interesting.
But yeah, kind of the same,like I don't want to suggest
that.
I was like waiting around foryou to like prove yourself or

(55:12):
something, and now I'm like likeit's just a parental kind of.

Yeah, superior.
Or, even worse, like a bossright, like I I'm in charge of
telling you how to behave, right?
So, um, and that could reallythat.
I see, I see that dynamic a lotwith with, uh, families like
these married couples with kids,where the mother or even like
other you know father, but likesomeone who, who was more in the
parent role and the one likemanaging the family activities

(55:43):
and then, because of that,there's this power dynamic.
There's a head of the householdwhere someone's like organizing
the activities and figuring outthe right way to discipline, and
then the other parent kind ofgets lumped into like a
hierarchy where they all have tolisten to the boss, and that
might be the case, becausethat's just like the emotional

(56:07):
labor of women.
But then what does that leavethe men?
It makes them like second incommand which feels shitty Like,
even if it's a for a good thing, like getting dinner done, you
know.

Yeah, I mean, you know there are
interesting consequences togender equality, right, Like in
the past, the man being the headof the household, I think maybe
, like, companies typically workbetter if there's one leader,
but too bad, like that's not howit works anymore, so we got to
figure out how to have a twoleader household, um, but but

(56:43):
yeah, so those kind of powerplays or, um, positioning
yourself above another person isgoing to probably piss your
partner or friend off prettyquickly to probably piss your
partner or friend off prettyquickly.

That's really interesting, yeah.
And so, like, if you're in anexplosive relationship, like
think about, like do you reallyare you the one that is in
charge of teaching?
Like, do you believe thatyou're in the role of teaching
the other person how to do itthe right way?
like even that belief.
Sometimes I've heard like, oh,you know, they get upset that

(57:23):
when they make dinner.
Um, you know, like they feellike they can never do it right
but like they don't do it right.
Am I right?
I'm like, yeah, but that'sgonna feel bad, right, that's
gonna feel like then the otherperson's gonna get angry and and
defensive.
If you think that you housedthe right way.

Yeah, I mean an explosion is a
reassertion of power.
I mean, because you areinteresting, I like that.
I mean I think so.
I don't think I can poke a holein it.
You are aggressing towards theother person.
In a sense, you are makingyourself big and intimidating.
That to me feels like anassertion of power and that

(58:05):
could come if you feel like youneed to like punish your
inferior, or it can feel likeyou are the inferior and so you
need to like reassert yourselfand, like you know, write the
scales never works, but I likethis, I like this works.

But I like this like reframe of explosion,
of reassertion of power, becauseit really does fit in with how
powerless a lot of people feelright now.
Why?
They're getting like explosivekind of it's kind of like how I
felt that, like that littlenugget that we landed on with
entitlement about.
Like that, all socialinteractions are a transaction

(58:38):
and an agreement between twopeople and entitlement is like I
want to get what I want.

I want to get the things out of you,
but I don't want to do thethings that I agree to you so
great, love it.

Um, well, I mean, we've we've already went
through a bunch of tips abouthow to you know, kind of like
soften emotional explosion.
One is like the true Istatement, not just like I'm
sorry you feel?
That way or like, but a reallike, owning your side.

I feel like you're an asshole, Like
that's not an I statement yeah.

I feel like you're a bad, you're a toxic
person.
I said an I statement Good forme, yeah, good boy statement.
Good for me, yeah, good boy.
Um, but the Gottman method willtalk about the um, the
different ways, the antidotes tothe war horseman.
So, instead of criticism likecoming at someone with criticism

(59:28):
and blame for why they didsomething wrong but use a gentle
startup, which is kind of whatI statement, so we talked about
before instead of being likeyou're, it's all your fault.
It's like it was a gentlestartup, which is kind of what I
statement, so we talked aboutbefore.
Instead of being like it's allyour fault, it's like when you
did this thing, I felt reallyhurt Instead of defensiveness,
taking responsibility, owningyour part, even if it's like a

(59:50):
kernel of truth, like even asmall kernel of truth, but like
I get that the way I said thingsreally hurt your feelings, even
though I didn't mean to, yeah,or like I didn't make a mistake,
I didn't mean to do this thingto hurt your feelings.
Right, contempt, the antidoteis appreciation I had expressing

(01:00:12):
, thinking about and expressingwhy you appreciate and respect
your partner.
I mean, when someone's reallypissed off and really resentful,
like that might be hard toaccess because you might be
thinking of all the things, butit really is.
It really is a good exercise tobe like why do I appreciate
this person, what are they goodat, what do they do for me, what

(01:00:33):
do they do for the family?
And really expressing it.
One of my patients said whatI'm supposed to just like thank
my husband for doing the disheslike I do every night.
Like, yeah, yeah, I mean what?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:51):
does it cost?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:00:51):
you to say thank you.

What Husbands are puppies, so are are
wives.
Everyone's just a puppy.
It needs to be trained.
Positive reinforcement works.

Oh, yeah, yeah I thought you were dipping
into the love island strategy oflike good boy, good job.
Oh no, which is?

which is not what you want to do it's
just like, if you know, I woulddo it more with gratitude rather
than good job, good boy, um,but yeah, I mean, I think, like
with, with criticism, I you know, it just depends on how far
down the line you are.
Like, I think Jason willsometimes maybe like criticize
my organization or cleanlinessthrough like humor which does

(01:01:31):
not rankle me Right, like, like,but that also might not be
completely effective for gettingme to change, cause I'm like he
thinks I'm cute, I'm funny,cause I'm so bad at things.
But anyway, if you want to justdraw somebody's attention to
something and be like, yeah, sothis is actually how you do it,

(01:01:52):
then I think humor can be a good, a good way.

Yeah, that is a good, a good way.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Using humor yeah, yeah, gentle,startup and like humor in a
really nice collaborative way.
That's not like mean, but likethis is inside joke um sometimes
I'll be like baby.

Can I just say something?
So I really love you.
You're just, you know, just thebest ever, just like light of
my life, you know.
And I'm like starting to giggleat this point, like all right,
what's the criticism?
Like it's obviously like reallytrying to compliment, sandwich
it, yeah.

So yeah, I don't know yeah, I don't know if
that works anymore, thecompliment sandwich, but just
because, like when you hear that, I'm just like, all right, it's
it's a tone that you're leadinginto something right.
I really love you.
You're great at so many things,however, and you're like oh,
just get to, you know.

Just fine, just tell me because in a
way that's aiming to get me tolaugh.
You know, it's like kind ofabsurdist.
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeahno, I know that is.
The problem with the complimentsandwich is that you're just
like, all right, I get it.
That was the bread.
What's the actual criticismmeat?

yeah, yeah so use that with caution.
Um, the last, the last tip fromthe gotman method is that
instead of stonewalling, whichis like a shutdown, like if
someone is so dysregulated andupset that they kind of shut out
the other person, stop talkingand or like, even give them the
like, more of like a coldshoulder, the antidote to that

(01:03:25):
is self-soothing and then,re-engaging in a genuine way.
So John Gottman said that hethinks that he could solve most
couples fights by insisting on a20 minute break.
So taking a 20 minute breatherphysiologically is a good amount

(01:03:45):
of time that, on average,people can calm down to a level
where they can reengage and talkin a more productive way.
So I mean even just even if youwant to do like a hey, we are
in this together against thisexplosive pattern of fighting,
let's do the 20 minutes and likelet's just cue each other when

(01:04:07):
we need to do it.
So just like literally set atimer, look at the clock and
like go take a walk or take abreak for 20 minutes and then
see what happens.
Just like notice how the walkor take a break for 20 minutes
and then see what happens.

just like notice how the conversation
changes after that break Iguess I get a little bit
skeptical of like his suggestionsometimes because it's like
okay, the antidote todefensiveness is taking
accountability.
It's like, yeah, but if youhave a strong, if you have
struggles with defensiveness,it's going to be really hard to
just like.
Like it's something that is youneed to like really learn over

(01:04:38):
time.
There's some.
I mean that is the antidote,right?
It's like, okay, but first youhave to notice it like okay, I'm
, I'm at risk of gettingdefensive and that is at risk of
meaning that I'm just gonnahave to spend all day tomorrow
apologizing or, like you know,it's a risk of breaking down

(01:05:00):
this relationship.
So I need a really compellingreason to want to not do this.
Okay, Like, I'm going to fakeit till I make it.
You know, like, try to validatewhatever I can validate.
Um, I, I guess I just like.
A lot of times, people, you knowthey have good reasons for
being defensive or forstonewalling or for you know any
of these things.
And it feels like when Isuggest timeouts to my clients,

(01:05:24):
A, they don't take them.
Or B, and I teach them all therules.
Right, you got to come back,you got to set a time.
Like you got to set a time forcoming back and just tell the
person where you're going to be,like all of these things and I
don't know, it just eitherdoesn't happen or it's not
enough.
Um, because in the moment right, Like in the moment when you're

(01:05:50):
angry, you just want toannihilate, and it's really hard
to get into your, into yourhead and say this isn't going to
go where I want it to go.
Like I think low levelexploders, yet like I don't know
Absolutely, If you arestonewalling, it probably means
you're in a kind of a freezeresponse and so you need to be
able to soothe your nervoussystem to be able to re-engage.

Um, yeah, yeah, I think that like thinking
about the goal is helpful,right, like you don't want to go
from defending yourself to liketaking all the blame for no
reason.
You want to be like, all right,it is not going to go anywhere
If I spend all this time denyingeverything that person's saying

(01:06:33):
.
That hurts their feelings andblaming them.
I didn't do that.
I didn't mean that you were theone right.
Like that's not going to help.
Yeah, like there might be afear of like if I admit to
anything, I'm a losing battle.
But if you're thinking the goalis to make them feel better,
figure out a better way, beright.

(01:06:54):
You know even to say like yeah,you're right, I did say that
and that that wasn't nice.
However, I have all these otherfeelings right Like to, to be
fair with the, with the goal oflike okay, if I'm going to take
this break, if I'm going to takeaccountability, my goal is to
soften this explosion and notget into a screaming throwing.

Hitting match right right, yeah, with
breaks, I I think that, yeah,you have to tell them when
you're going to come back, or atleast check in.
You have to tell them whereyou're going.
But also, like, for the love ofgod, do something distracting
during that break, because Ijust I think a thing that
happens is people just sit therestewing, yeah, and then they
come back and they think of 20more reasons why they should be

(01:07:38):
mad.
But that's like so hard to do.
So sometimes with breaks I'mlike, do I even want to suggest
that?

I mean I take , I take like a day break, which
is terrible for Alex.

But I really.

But I do it because I'm like, whatever.
If I'm just going to snap athim and say all the things that,
like, my anger wants me to sayin this moment, then I'm just
going to be blamed and this isgoing to be entirely about how
I'm.
I'm going to have to apologizeand I'm going to be the bad guy.
So I'm going to go and spend aday in bed watching horror

(01:08:16):
movies that's like my thing andtexting you and texting caitlin
and all her friends about howawful and all the, all, the
naughty thing, all the angerthoughts and tricks to my
friends and then get somevalidation.
And then, and just I, I waituntil I get from a place of

(01:08:36):
anger to like my fear andsadness and hurt and shame,
which is really what's drivingmy anger.
And then when I'm about to cryor when I do start crying.
That's when I decide to askAlex to talk again, because then
I know that I can, I could talkto.
I mean, it doesn't always gowell, but at least is way better
than if I were to react to thatmoment when I come to him and

(01:08:59):
say like I'm really hurt and I'mcrying and not like angry.
I think that goes differently,at least.

So yeah , no, I like that.
Um.
I think the problem is somepeople won't.
Their emotion won't go down.
Um, like it won, it won'tswitch.
They'll keep the anger alivebecause it's too hard to be
vulnerable, it's too threateningto be vulnerable, and so
they'll refuse to go intosoftness, which I do think is
going to be more likely, withmen allowed to be soft and

(01:09:36):
they're definitely not allowedto cry.
So but I, but I do really likethat rule in general of saying
when I'm in this emotional state, it's not going to be effective
, so I'm not going to engageuntil I'm, until I'm up, until
I've met the real emotion thatunderlies it.
Problem is that the anger isreally justified.

That's a pretty tough rule to follow
because then, then take, thenreally think about what is the
goal here?
What do I?

want out of this.

Like do I want to defend myself?
Do I want to um point out anunfairness?
Well you're not going to do thatas effectively in the heat of
the moment than if you have a 20minute break.
Chill out, really craft yourwords, maybe talk to a friend,
talk to a coach or therapist,work out all the feelings and
really figure out what you wantto say.
Right, think about it as likenot just like how do I become a

(01:10:24):
vulnerable puddle again, butlike what do I want to, what do
I really need and what do I, howdo I want this to turn out and
what's the best way to get there?

Yeah, yeah, if you are somebody who
goes to contempt, so, yes, theantidote is appreciation and
gratitude, but I would try tothink about what feels so good
about contempt and understandthat that is the horseman that
has the worst outcomes.

(01:10:53):
So, if you are stuck in thatplace, know that your
relationship is threatened.
If that's where you are andsometimes it's not terrible to
have contempt, but it might meanthat you're in a wrong
relationship.
Like you should not, becausebeing at the other end of
contempt is terrible, feelingcontempt for your partner is
terrible.
So, right, it's like what isthe function of this, right?
Is this?
Is this keeping me safe in someway?

(01:11:14):
Is this keeping me from beinghurt by my partner in some way?
Am I genuinely disgusted by mypartner?
In which case, like you knowthat that is, that's a sign that
something needs to change.
Um, yeah, your relationshipconfiguration, or how much
access you should be having tothat person.

(01:11:36):
Um, so, if it's, if it's reallyreally a struggle to come up
with things that you appreciateabout your partner or your
friend, then really have youknow, just really think about
that yeah, yeah, that led to mydivorce yeah, yeah, yeah, um,

(01:11:59):
and then yeah and then still.
I mean so that that is maybe anindication that you're in a bit
of a freeze response, going toself-soothe can be really
helpful.
Figuring out what kind ofcommunication from your partner
would would help you not go intothat.
Like you know, um shut downfrozen state is really important
, so yeah, so I think if, if wewrap here tips um kivy, do you

(01:12:25):
have a resource for us?

yeah, in fact I do um.
So again, I'll link the guideto de-escalatingions.
It kind of lists out a lot ofthings that we talk about here,
but in a PDF file that you cansave and refer to it when you
guys are exploding.

Amazing .
Well, kibbe, I don't want toexplode to you if we don't get
any five-star ratings on ApplePodcasts or Spotify.
To you if we don't get anyfive-star ratings on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify.
So I'm going to ask, for I feelI feel like our listeners are
dickheads if they don't do that.

(01:13:04):
And so, in order, I don't know,I'm losing the thread of this.
We'll see you guys next week.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of

(01:13:30):
this podcast make no warranty.
Thank you, your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or

(01:13:51):
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call.
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