The Hidden Pain of Rejection: Understanding Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria and Its Link to ADHD

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What happens when criticism feels like a physical blow? For some of you, rejection and criticism trigger an emotional response so intense it has its own name: Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (RSD).

In this episode, we deep into the painful world of RSD – that overwhelming feeling of shame and worthlessness that can follow even minor criticism for or rejection. Jacqueline shares a raw, personal story about crying in a supervisor's office following critical feedback, highlighting how even successful people can feel ambushed by the pain of rejection.

What's surprising is that the research shows that RSD is common with neurodivergent people with symptoms of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). We question whether RSD is truly unique to ADHD or if it's simply an intense manifestation of shame that's been given a clinical name. The neurobiological explanation involves differences in how the ADHD brain processes rejection, but we wonder if the real difference lies in how frequently people with ADHD face criticism throughout their lives for behaviors that are difficult to control.

We also cover practical coping strategies, exploring cognitive behavioral therapy techniques, leaning into and even celebrating the traits that often invite criticism. Perhaps most valuable is reframing ADHD traits as having both strengths and challenges, recognizing that spontaneity, creativity, and hyperfocus can be tremendous assets in the right context.

**We're excited to announce that our KulaMind community is finally open!! You'll get step-by-step tactics for how to overcome rejection sensitivity or other emotionally challenging relationships.

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Episode Transcript

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers, today wehave an episode that was
requested by one of you and itwas a great suggestion.
The episode was rejection,sensitivity, dysphoria and its

(00:21):
connection to ADHD, and I thinkthis is a very timely episode,
because I happened to cry in mysupervisor's office earlier
today because of ADHD.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:33):
Oh my God, okay, let's get into it.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:37):
But kicking it over to you for
KulaMind.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:43):
You always kick it over to me when you,
after you, drop a bomb.
So um yeah, really exciting newswe the officially launched the
KulaMind community.
Um, it's been a long timecoming, but it's.
I mean it's.
It's.
The origins are from when wetaught this at duke to loved
ones of people with intenseemotions.
So it's this community that webuilt for you guys.

(01:07):
It's a place where you canlearn all the different skills
that we talk about, like how toset boundaries with toxic family
members or partners or otherpeople in your life, how to
understand emotions and how tomake them work for you, how to
stay calm and how to deal withemotional crises.
So it's really for anybody whohas someone in their life

(01:28):
struggling with emotions or justkind of like to learn about
relationship and mental healthskills in general.
So, yeah, so I'll.
I'll put the link in our shownotes.
So if you just want to learn alittle bit more, or curious and
want to talk to me about it, ourwebsite is coolamindcom
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.
com and the link will be in theshow notes, where you can learn

(01:49):
more about the community, andnext week we start the actual
course.
So it'll be like a weekly livecourse where we'll do in-depth
learning about how to actuallyapply these skills, how to
validate, set those boundaries,speak up for yourself and all
these different ways that wesupport each other and actually
practicing them in our dailylife.
So you get like one-on-one,step-by-step help through

(02:13):
actually how to do these skills,how to set boundaries and stuff
.
So it's really exciting Veryrelevant to our topic today.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:20):
I have a lot of thoughts about this,
but first of all, Kibby, do youthink that I have rejection?
Sensitive dysphoria.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:28):
Yeah, I do, I do so.
Back in my social psychologydays at Columbia there was this
amazing researcher namedGeraldine Downey who does
everything about rejectionsensitivity.
So I've always heard aboutrejection sensitivity in terms
of like, as just like a traitthat we have someone who is more

(02:49):
sensitive or scared or reactstrongly to being socially
rejected.
But the dysphoria part, I feellike it's kind of new.
I feel like now people aretalking about it all over the
place.
I feel like it just happened inthe past, like year, maybe like
since COVID, not surprisingly,but I, I want to know why you

(03:11):
have suddenly heard more aboutthis too.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (03:12):
Um, I've been hearing about it for a
few years and always in thecontext of ADHD, and I'm I'm
pretty.
I mean we're going to talkabout why it's specific to ADHD,
but I'm still a little bit nottotally convinced, I guess.
Um, I mean I'm convinced thatit's specific to ADHD, but I'm
still a little bit not totallyconvinced, I guess.
I mean, I'm convinced that it'sa thing because there's lots of
evidence that it's a thing.
It seems to be very, veryconnected to ADHD, but I don't

(03:37):
understand why the specificityis there Like.
It seems to me like somethingthat I can see being a common
occurrence in people with ADHD,but I don't understand why it's
not seen just as often in many,many other disorders.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:52):
We'll figure out, we'll break apart what RSD
actually is and why it'sconnected to ADHD.
But should we give a generaldefinition?
Should we?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (04:01):
Yeah, definition should we?
Yeah, um, I mean I'd say likerejection, sensitive sensitivity
to psoriasis is kind ofreferring to this intense social
pain experienced, um, sort ofin anticipation of, during or
after criticism or rejection.
It can feel literally likephysical People can get stomach

(04:24):
aches, headaches, feel, you knowlike, get really flushed, cry
and it can take a while to comedown from.
But I think what I've seen itdescribed as is like really
intense in the moment andoftentimes a story can get
attached to it.
So you know, if my bosscriticizes me for something then

(04:46):
it means I'm I'll never succeed, I'll get fired, yada yada.
People with RSD can kind of livein anticipation of criticism or
rejection and adjust theirbehavior around it, meaning they
might avoid situations wherethey could be criticized.
So that could mean eitherextreme people pleasing or it

(05:09):
could mean not trying new thingswhere they might fail.
It could mean not meeting newpeople, like all sorts of
avoidance behaviors.
I think what supposedlydifferentiate, differentiates
RSD from just rejection,sensitivity or not liking
rejection, is the intensity ofthe pain in that moment.

(05:33):
What would you add?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:36):
I would just think that that is the
definition of shame.
Yeah, I know, isn't this shame?
Isn't this intense shame?
Yeah, I know, isn't this shame?
This is intense shame.
Like isn't this?
I mean, we went from likesadness to depression, fear, to
like anxiety, and now we'regoing from like shame to
rejection, sensitive activity orsensitive dysphoria.

(05:57):
And to be clear for everyonelike I, I had to look into this
this is not an officialdiagnosis.
It just seems to be like maybea trans diagnostic, if you will
syndrome like almost a symptomof like this really intense
despair in response to rejectionor criticism.
I just feel like it's shame.

(06:17):
So do you know why this isdifferent from feeling?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbu (06:20):
attention .
Reading this research it feelsanemic to me'm like it I this
isn't a very convincingconstruct to me, I mean, I think
for one thing because it'sliterally talking about just a
degree of something like.
It's kind of like saying whensome everybody when they touch a

(06:40):
stove it hurts, but some peopleit really hurts and they have
dysphoria, I don't know.
There's just something kind oflacking for me in that.
And I agree it is hard to seeany difference between this and
shame, which is also just a painat perceived rejection.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:01):
Yeah, I mean, when I was reading about it I
was like wait a minute.
This also describes avoidantpersonality disorder.
This also describes extremesocial anxiety and it also
describes like BPD I you know wecould talk about is you know a
lot of it is around avoidance ofabandonment and shame and

(07:28):
rejection.
There seems to be a little bitmore of like an impulsivity up
and down response with BPD, likethe pain might be there but it
might be like so dysregulatingthat they do all sorts of stuff.
Like the highs and the lows theidealist right, there's it gets
.
It feels like a little bit morerollercoastery versus like the
R and the lows the idealistsright.
It feels like a little bit morerollercoastery versus like the
RSD sounds like I have this likeintense period of sadness, but

(07:55):
not necessarily the explosion ofBPD.
But can you pick?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:59):
apart what this is.
No, this is my problem.
I'm reading this and I cannotfigure out why it's specific to
ADHD.
I can see why people with ADHDhave it, but I can't figure out
why people with ADHD have it andany other disorder wouldn't.
I mean, even looking at thereasons given, it's like, oh
well, people with ADHD havedifferent connectivity between

(08:21):
the amygdala and the prefrontalcortex, where the prefrontal
cortex isn't able to regulatethe overactive amygdala.
And I'm like, yeah, that's thecase in so many other disorders
too, I mean, and maybe there's alittle bit of a different
circuitry with it.
But that explanation alone isnot specific at all to ADHD.
And then you know, I mean Ithink it's also making the claim

(08:48):
that, like it is interestingwhen you read ADHD, there's no
emotion dysregulation symptomcriteria.
And yet I think it could easilybe considered an emotion
regulation issue, right, like ifyou skip from project to
project, if you can't organize,if, um, let's just start with

(09:13):
those two, like that mightindicate an intolerance of
boredom or frustration, forinstance, like intolerance of
certain emotional experiences.
Um, so it's not surprising thatthere's like an emotion
regulation aspect there.
But I think, I think what'sbothering me a little bit is

(09:36):
that, like ADHD, is called aneurodivergent disorder, in part
because it's not just emotiondysregulation.
There's something aboutattention and focus and the
supposedly like attentionalsystems work differently.
Is that in any way related toshame or rejection?
The only the only connection Ican see, which has been made in

(09:59):
the literature over and over, isthat if you are, if you have
attentional issues, focus issues, impulsivity issues, you are
likely to get repeatedlycriticized and that might make
you more prone to fearing thatcriticism and more sensitive to
it.
That's like how I feel, but Ialso think that's true of any

(10:21):
other disorders.
I don't get it, but it isspecifically linked to the
research.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:29):
I mean, yeah, if you are not, if you have
trouble in school because you'redisorganized, if you can't hold
down a job, can't you have yourADHD symptoms make you smart
and creative but yet prevent youfrom the, you know,
traditionally prestigious jobsof being a lawyer, doctor,
anything that requires likereally focused concentration,

(10:51):
then, yeah, in this society andmany other societies, people
with ADHD will feel a lot ofshame, feel a lot of rejection
and and almost like maybethere's just a lot more room to
criticize someone with ADHDversus anything else.
Right, like, if you'redepressed, you're probably

(11:11):
hopefully not going to get asmuch criticism of your
depressive symptoms as if youwere bad at school.
So there's like an evaluation,there's like a socially
acceptable like I can criticizeyou for being messy and not
doing your homework.
It's harder to criticize youfor having like trauma symptoms
still happens, but you know whatI mean.
Like there's like only aboutyou being, you know your, your

(11:36):
supervising moment.
Like what, what happened there?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (11:40):
I mean it's funny because I'm going on
this rant but like this is agreat example of RSD inaction
and ADHD.
But I basically I had aprofessor sorry, I had a
supervisor who wanted to watchone of my sessions with a
patient and he did and he gaveme really really good feedback

(12:02):
and I was kind of on a high fromthat.
And then I come back to my deskand earlier in the day a
supervisor had said can we meetat 3 PM tomorrow?
But I thought her message hadcome in the day before or no
sorry, sorry, I thought hermessage had come in that morning
but it had actually come in theday before.
So I thought we were meeting at3 PM tomorrow, not 3 PM today.

(12:26):
And so she was like hey, areyou still free?
So I came down and admittedlyI've had some scheduling snafus
with the supervisor before.
Um, I think in part she'sreally young, she's like just
out of stock.
I think I'm not like she, she'sonly supervising me on, like
some groups that don't likerequire a lot of collaboration

(12:49):
or like depth or whatever.
So I think I've been kind ofnot taking that as seriously as
some others.
And I kind of came in.
She was like, hey, how are youdoing?
And I'm like fine, it's likehow are you doing with the
workload?
I'm like good, it's, you know,more intense than it has been
all year.
But cause I just got an influxof patients and basically she

(13:11):
was tiptoeing around the ideathat like something's up with me
because I keep beingdisorganized and kind of talking
about it and I can just feelthe tears coming.
And then they did and it wasembarrassing.
She was extremely nice, youknow.
I mean it wasn't anything Ididn't.

(13:32):
I didn't feel reject.
I think that's the other thingabout.
I don't.
I, I don't.
I'm sensitive to criticism.
I don't know if that's the samething as rejection to me
necessarily.
I think there could be anargument for it, but I don't
necessarily I'm sensitive tocriticism.
I don't know if that's the samething as rejection to me
necessarily.
I think there could be anargument for it, but I don't
necessarily feel like she wasrejecting me so much as, um,

(13:53):
maybe indicating though, thatthere is a behavior of mine that
could get me rejected.
I don't know, um, it just itseems like it's a mediator more
than like the actual thing.
Whatever, the point is, I crieda little bit and it was hard.
It was kind of hard to calmdown and it was frustrating
because I'm like I am not thatemotionally attached to my

(14:21):
organizational abilities Likethe.
The supervisor telling me I dida good job in my session was
far, far more important to methan somebody saying like you're
not organized, like beingorganized is not something that
I need to be part of my selfconcept, but I will say that I
do cry very easily if ADHDspecific behaviors are what are

(14:41):
being called out and I feel likeI'm more regulated in other,
like if it's, I actually mightbe more regulated if you called
out my clinical skills than myorganizational skills, even
though I care more about myclinical skills.
Why do you think that?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (14:56):
is I?
I?
I have seen you get equallyupset when other parts of you
are criticized, so I don't I'mlike wondering if that's true,
but what about?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (15:09):
The.
Adhd stuff makes me feelhelpless and it's like something
you hear so repeatedly and itseems to never get better even
though.
I think it has.
But yeah, I'm just like oh,here we go again.
Like yet again I've been foundout and I don't, and you know
there'll be.
Like, what kind of systems doyou have in place?
I'm like, I don't know Googlecalendar, like the whole part of

(15:33):
my whole fucking problem isthat I don't like to be
organized.
I don't like organizationalsystems.
They make me crazy.
I keep falling back on them.
It's just another thing addedto my plate.
It doesn't help me actually getorganized.
It's just one more thing tofail at.
So I never have a good answerfor it.
I can't handle the medication,so I'm not.
I don't have that to help me.
I'm just kind of like trying toskate by.

(15:54):
I mean, I think a lot of thetimes when you've seen me get
criticized, it's around thingslike being self-focused or
inconsiderate, which I alsothink can relate back to ADHD.
But yeah, like bachelorrejection, shit hit me very,
very hard and that's not relatedto ADHD.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (16:21):
So if it's a helpless thing, like you feel
helpless, you feel like youcan't do anything about the
organizational stuff, but it'snot something that it's part of
your self-concept, why do youthink it hurts you so much?
Why do you think it hurts youso much?
I could be like oh, I'm goingto criticize you for not having

(16:43):
blonde hair.
Oh, look at dark.
Look how dark your hair is.
Right, I mean, actually youcould probably change that
easily, more easily than ADHD.
But like, tell me why feelingrejected and criticized for ADHD
is something that hits so hardif that's not something that you
care about as much?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (17:03):
I mean, I think, if I think, if 50
different people told me that itwas gross that I have brown
hair, then I would probably feelsimilarly.
Um, the ADHD stuff is somethingthat's noticed by a lot of
different people and it justkeeps.
It feels like my Achilles heelthat keeps being like oh there,
it is what, what's going onthere?
Like my Achilles heel thatkeeps being like oh there, it is

(17:25):
what, what's going on therewith your Achilles heel?
Have you, you know?
Have you done anything?
to to heal it, have you?
You know how can I heal it whenI'm like I don't fucking know
how you can help me be moreorganized.
That's not your job.
Like I don't know what to tellyou.
So yeah, and it's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (17:58):
I think the reason I started off with the
story of my first supervisortelling me that I did a good job
is there's something about ADHDwhich makes me feel like, no
matter how well I do or how farI climb, this is always going to
tear me back down again.
I see, I see.
So it's like the it's, it's thealbatross is the thing that
holds you back, no matter howmuch you like, excel into these
other areas, then being knockeddown for this is a bummer, yeah.
So when you feel this dysphoriafrom feeling rejected for ADHD,

(18:23):
do you like?
What does it feel like?
Do you have any of thesesymptoms of RSD, or does it feel
different, as we're talkingabout, physically, or change
your behavior differently thanany other kind of rejection?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (18:37):
I find this difficult to answer.
It's it feels to me like sayingwhat does it feel like when you
touch a stove, like when I'mcriticized?
I feel bad, my cheeks get hot,I feel exposed and vulnerable.
I think that's also part of ittoo is like oh yeah, like you
found it, you found my perennialweakness.
Like I don't have a good answerfor this, I don't know what to

(18:59):
say about it.
It's, it's just my like.
It's an exposed kind of feeling.
Um, but yeah, it's this grosskind of like oh no, no, no, no
feeling and I blush and tearsimmediately.
It's always tears, I guess,probably hit in my chest stomach

(19:26):
, but I guess I just feel likethat's what shame feels like.
So it feels weird, that's whatRSD feels like and everybody has
shame.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (19:34):
Everyone listening.
Do us a favor, and if you haveexperienced RSD, rejection,
sensitivity disorder, thisintense pain, can you send us a
message?
There's in the show notes.
If you look back on the shownotes, there's a thing that on
the top says send us a text.
Can you send us a messagetelling us what this feels like
and if it feels any differentfrom any other kind of rejection

(19:56):
, emotional pain or I'm just?
I just really want to hear morepeople talking about this, just
because, yeah, I mean, likeshame is so painful.
It's so painful that that Iremember in one of our emotion
classes that taking grad schoolit's interesting the teacher was
saying shame is the emotionthat regulates us, even before

(20:20):
we feel it.
Like we are so sociallyconscious, like it is so
important for us to be connectedto a group and not alone, that
we are doing it.
We're listening to shamewithout even feeling it.
We are not running around nakedin the middle of the streets

(20:41):
singing our favorite songs, likepooping on the streets because
of shame, right, and like wedon't even think, right that we
there's so many things that wedo in order to be like to abide
by social norms, yeah, and so Iget that shame is just such an
intense emotion.
I I do feel like we do so muchto not feel it because it's so

(21:05):
painful, right Like, we getangry, we blame, we figure out
who else is toxic, we, you knowlike go to the people pleasing,
which is more like that fearresponse.
Yeah, so I don't know if I'mjust wondering if, like, the
feeling of shame is gettingoverwhelming, maybe because even
COVID, we're so, we've been soisolated that so much of social

(21:31):
stuff has gotten messed up.
Right Like, we're not taking asmuch risks, like people aren't
like people are on their phonesall day.
They're not like dealing withthe world as much, so there's a
lot of social withdrawal acrossthe board.
I mean, oh my God, the Gen Z isscrewed that.
They're just like sitting intheir rooms all day looking at

(21:51):
Instagram.
Right, like, talk about, likebeing locked in shame and not
doing approach to it, and so I'mjust I don't know, I think I'm
just puzzling over like I wouldjust love to do a research study
on this.
I was wondering that before wetalked and it was funny because
you know thinking about it as aconnection to ADHD.
So I don't know if I feel thesame um same rejection or

(22:18):
criticism, like I don't feel asbad about my adhd.
I feel like I I've gotten a lotof people have made fun of me
over the years.
They've called me space cadet,they I think I'm I've maybe
because I've lived in anxiety.
I've been, I've regulated myadhd with a lot of anxiety and a

(22:40):
lot of hyper focus, so I've gota lot lot of like.
People have made so much fun ofme for my hyper focus, like
when I play a video game, when Ido one thing, when I'm walking
down the street, I'll focus tothe point where everything else
disappears.
I feel like people have madefun of me for that.
But I don't know.
But I think I've made it workenough that I don't know if it's

(23:01):
, I don't know.
I just don't feel the same likesting.
However, even especially whenon my Vyvanse, when I'm on my
medication, I feel RSD like Ifeel the sense of worthlessness
more.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (23:18):
On Vyvanse yeah, fascinating yeah,
I mean maybe because, okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:23):
So if, like, if we're talking about it, it's
just like an emotion regulationproblem linked to ADHD, right,
if regulating emotions takes alot of the thinking skills,
right, to be able to go.
Oh my gosh, I'm feeling so sad.
But let me direct my attentionto things that are not about the
sad thing.
Let me actually like shiftgears and go, take a walk, and

(23:46):
you know, being able to regulateyourself and take control over
your actions is a, like anintentional prefrontal cortex
thing.
So if you have less of it, your, your emotions are like
exploding all over the place.
Um, and I don't know, like Ithink maybe it's because my

(24:07):
hyper-focus, but when I'mactually on Vyvanse and I start
to have a thought, my likenormal automatic thoughts I'm
getting so much more aware ofbecause of this podcast, where
I'm like I'm worthless.
Oh, if I don't do this, I'mterrible, like I.
I mean I.
Why did I even think I could dothis?
Why did I even think that Icould run a business?
Why could I think of doing this?
Like, why do I even try?

(24:28):
I'm like people can see thatI'm broken inside and then
they're going to hate me and soI just have those.
I have those thoughts all thetime and then, when on on
Vyvanse, it's like persistentand impairing.
Like I will sit there for hourstrying to battle these thoughts
of like I'm worthless, I'malways going to be a failure,

(24:49):
I'll never do anythingsuccessful, I'll never make any,
I'll never do anythingsuccessfully that I reach.
I don't even I'm trying to.
I'm now I'm trying to like saythem out loud and I don't.
I don't know how they feel.
Like it just feels like theself-hate of like you'll never
be good enough, you'll never,you're never, you're never, that
you don't have what it takes,you don't have what it takes,

(25:10):
you don't have it takes.
That's, that's my.
And then I think, like theVyvanse makes me lock into that
thought.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (25:15):
So, yeah, I was gonna because, well,
one of the reasons I felt likemaybe I cried today also was
that I'm switching over toProzac and Prozac has a slight
stimulant quality and when I'mon stimulants which I am
extremely sensitive to that'swhy I don't take them I feel
more emotionally dysregulatedand it's just a pin drop could

(25:36):
get me to kind of unravel mynerves.
I'm afraid you know, and so Icould see that you know, having
something to do with the byvance thing.
I also wonder if it's you.
When you are on by vance, yeah,you're so locked into your
sphere of like productivity anddoing this and you can't find
your way out of it as easily,and so all of that work is

(25:58):
associated with those thoughts.
It would be interesting to see.
We should look into the studiesand see if these people were
medicated or not.
Oh, interesting, yeah, becauselet's see how stimulant
medication could increase.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:14):
Make it worse .

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (26:15):
Yeah.
That's a bummer, that would beinteresting, right, because it
would be the cure for ADHD isactually causing the RSD in some
sense, or exacerbating the RSD.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:27):
Yeah, and we also do know that stimulant
medication helps for some traits, some symptoms of ADHD, not
others.
Right, like it helps with thefocus but it doesn't help with
organization, so it's and otherkinds of behaviors like that.
So it is different.
I think yeah.

(26:47):
Ooh tricky, tricky stuff.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (26:50):
Yeah Well, ADHD is also kind of two
different disorders.
You've got the inattentivesubtype and the hyperactive
subtype and of course there's acombined.
But those two presentations arepretty different so and I could
see how they would lead torejection sensitivity in two
very different ways.
I mean the hyperactive kid isgoing to get rejected a lot
growing up and that's going tobe very painful, and they're

(27:11):
going to be rejected by peers.
I don't think the inattentivetype is going to be rejected by
peers nearly as much.
That seems more like a workissue, Like they might get
negative feedback from teachers.
But I don't know why aneight-year-old kid with
inattentive ADHD would face aton of rejection from peers.
I mean, it's like I could comeup with theories, but it just

(27:35):
doesn't seem like nearly thesame extent as the hyperactive
kid would, who is like bouncingoff the walls and very obviously
different.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (27:43):
Yeah, just really trying to think about
that feeling after you'recriticized, like okay, okay, all
right, even just talkingthrough all the different

(28:06):
symptoms, right, it's like, asyou're saying, avoiding
situations like avoiding dating,avoiding projects as soon as
they, as soon as you feelcriticized, and then also that's
that how the RSD kind of bringsup this, that shame spiral of

(28:28):
like I'm always messing up, I'ma failure, right, and then the
it's interesting to howrejection says I think we've
talked about more about this buthow rejection sensitivity can
actually lead to more rejectionand problems in their
relationships.
Right, like you're constantlyworried about relationships, you

(28:51):
want to get reassurance, youare really anxious about you
know your connections andwhether you're going to get
rejected or not.
Oh, and the other thing aboutRSD is that you, if you have RSD
, people with rejectedsensitivity tend to read neutral
, um, they tend to read neutralsocial information as negative,

(29:14):
right?
So if someone texts you okay,period, then people with
rejected sensitivity would tendto read that as like negative,
like that person's mad at methen, Um, and which now we're
ripe for that, because it's allabout texting and emailing and
really neutral, likecommunication which you could

(29:35):
layer on a ton of rejectionsensitivity too.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (29:38):
So well , it's funny, funny.
I don't know if this isactually true, but, um, in
texting my 17 year old stepson,he will text like happy birthday
or thanks, like no emojis orlike exclamation points or
whatever.
And somebody told me that's howgen z, that's just how gen z
texts.

(29:59):
Now and I'm like, what the fuck?
Like how is anybody supposed tounderstand what tone is being
conveyed without some help?
But anyway, hey, kibbe, what isit called when somebody reads
more into something than there'sevidence for?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:15):
Oh, it's called a negative bias.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:17):
Or a hypermentalization.

Dr. Kibby Mc (30:19):
Hypermentalization .
Yeah Well, hypermentalization I.
I thought it was like you'rereading more things, but then
plus a negative, then there'sanother negative bias where
you're like reading morenegative things, right like yeah
, I mean, I think.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:33):
but I mean if you say okay, dot, and I
actually, if you said okay,period, I think I would
correctly mentalize that youwere pissed about something,
because millennials don't textlike that.
But if you said okay, period, Ithink I would correctly
mentalize that you were pissedabout something, because
millennials don't text like that.
But if you said K and I waslike she's mad at me, that would
be hypermentalizing and anegative bias, hypermentalizing
with a negative bias.
Anyways, this isn't interestingto our audience.

(30:54):
This is just me nerding out myown dissertation.
But the other point is is, likemy dissertation was on this in
BPD, right?
Like not ADHD, not hershame-based disorder?
So this doesn't feel specificat all to ADHD, but yet somehow
somehow is, and part of me islike is RSD being defined in a

(31:16):
way where it's just not beingstudied in other disorders?
Or something Like we know shameis specific to BPD, we know
shame is a huge deal in socialanxiety disorder.
It makes no sense that itwouldn't, that that it wouldn't
be stronger in those disordersthan ADHD, or at least just as

(31:38):
strong ADHD, or at least just asstrong.
So I know we've kind of beatthat.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:45):
I mean, I guess, I guess the.
I think, just from reading whatwe read, I think it's the
quality and what people did Like.
I think the quality seems to bea period of time like the
actual experience of RSD versusany other you know, reaction to

(32:11):
reject, sensitivity.
It's this period of intensephysical pain, right, Like this
kind of like when you heardysphoria.
It's this very defined periodof time where you feel crappy,
right versus borderlinepersonality disorder.
Um, that has a lot more likelike.
They're not like sitting therefeeling sad.
They're exploding.

(32:32):
They're like begging.
They're they're doing drugs.
They're like having sex.
They're like like frantically.
So I think maybe it's just likethe like, how that pain
manifests and what you do withit is different in these
different disorders to me.
Okay, let's just let's call itspades, but let's just say like

(32:53):
this is just intense, intense,dysregulated, um painful, shame
that leads to a lot of avoidance.
How about?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (33:07):
that I don't think it has to
necessarily lead to avoidance.
It just might lead to avoidance.
Like, for instance, I don'tfeel like I avoid getting
rejected socially very much.
I do avoid conflict, but Idon't avoid getting rejected
Like I.
I would put myself out there indating situations all the time I

(33:29):
put myself on national TV, Likeif I wanted to not get rejected
, I probably shouldn't have madesome of the decisions that I
did.
So it didn't.
It never felt like I wasanticipating, like I had a
fearful anticipation ofrejection.
Yeah, I mean yeah.
So it's hard, but of coursesometimes I do, but I feel like

(33:50):
sometimes everyone does, so Ijust don't, I don't, I wouldn't
say I have severe.
Adhd.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (33:59):
Right and I'd like you respond to to life
with more approach than otherpeople.
So maybe avoidance is just lessof the thing.
And I'm just looking at now I'mreally looking over the common
experiences of RSD connected toADHD A lot of rumination and
self-blame, like they couldn'tstop brooding over it.

(34:21):
Physical and emotionaloverwhelm like, as you said, the
stomach aches and headaches Outof proportion.
Reactions like it feels likethe end of the world when you
get criticized.
And avoidance and withdrawalright, avoiding social
situations.
So it might be that like youjust have some of them and not
all of them, right, you justdon't have the avoidance part as

(34:42):
much.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (34:46):
Yeah, and this isn't about me, I'm
just saying that as an example.
I think I do have the avoidanceand in some ways and other ways
I don't, but that descriptionfeels like the exact same
description you would givesomebody with social anxiety
disorder.
I still am just not seeing howit's specific to.

(35:08):
Adhd.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:17):
You know what ?
Maybe people with social well,first of all, they could overlap
, and people with social anxietytend to.
It's a focus of the fear beforethe social events.
Right, it's like social anxietyis diagnosed not because of how
they feel when they getrejected.
It's because they're soterrified and they might not

(35:37):
even get rejected at all, right,they're just so scared of it
before.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:46):
So if social anxiety is the problem of
before, rsd is the problem ofafter.
Yeah, I think that's the bestargument we're going to give for
it.
I mean, I still think it's justriddled with bullet holes,
because we talk about RSD ashaving an anticipatory component
also, and I think when peoplewith social anxiety disorder do
get rejected, they are going tofeel that very intensely.

(36:07):
Anxiety disorder do getrejected.
They are going to feel thatvery intensely.
But I think we should go withyour idea there, cause I can't.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:15):
I just can't think of anything better.
Let's play around withpotential interventions like
therapeutic interventions.
So I was wondering as we weretalking, I was wondering the
different ways that we couldregulate that shame.
And I was wondering as we weretalking, I was wondering the
different ways that we couldregulate that shame.
And I was thinking of likeopposite action, where you know,
the opposite action to shame iskind of what AA teaches its

(36:41):
people Stand up, say I am Kibbeand I am alcoholic.
Right To like be instead oflike, like hiding, but be
forthcoming.
So there's that one.
And there's also cognitivestrategies of thinking about
maybe different alternativehypotheses for the rejection,
like if you're reading like oh,that person hates me because

(37:03):
they texted me okay, period.
Um, maybe there's other thingsthat they're thinking, or maybe
they're not rejecting me.
So there's that cognitiveflexibility.
Which one do you like better?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:15):
uh, I think this is a package deal.
I I think that there are eachtwo second interventions and you
can do both.
I mean all right.
All right, jacqueline, what doit?
Hey, yes, you're reallydisorganized.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:26):
You're really bad at All.
Right, jacqueline, what Do it?
Hey, yes, you're reallydisorganized.
You're really bad at schedulingand you, whenever we schedule
something, you know like it is acrapshoot whether you're going
to make it and you just can't doit.
You're not very good at it.

(37:46):
Very disorganized person, notvery nice.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:53):
Do you feel it?
Do you feel it at all, Do you?
No, not really, because I knowwhat you're doing, but I mean A
tiny, maybe a tiny twinge,whether it's the crapshoot that
I'll make it, but okay, whatever.
Um, so a good reframe that Iread was that if somebody, like

(38:16):
at work, criticizes you, itmight not be that they think
you're stupid and um,unforgivably you know, I have
unforgivable deficits but thatthey actually trust that you are
capable of improving andotherwise they wouldn't give the
feedback if it didn't seem likethere was something you could

(38:37):
do with it.
So, just in receiving feedback,it means that the other person
has some faith in you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:43):
Oh no, I don't have no faith in you.
I feel like you're going to bedisorganized forever.
It's going to really hold youback in life.
It's going to hold you back inyour future practice.
It's going to affect the waypeople see you.
I have no hope that you canimprove on this.
How am I doing as a behavioraltherapist?
You're so, you just you're so.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (39:05):
Kitty's a bitch.
Blame Okay, coolibbe's a bitch.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:09):
Blame.
Okay cool, Turn it into anger.
Yeah, that's worked.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (39:16):
Oh, kibbe's having a bad day today.
You know she's taking it out onme for some reason, but man, am
I feeling some shame in thismoment.
I think I know what thisfeeling is.
That's familiar to me.
I mean, look like in earliertoday I basically said to her
it's ADHD and then I startedlike tearing up and I just tried

(39:41):
to acknowledge my side of thestreet.
In a sense, even in the emotionlike even in just in the
emotional reaction, I was likeyou're super nice, you're
totally fine.
I wish I weren't having thisreaction, um, but it'll pass, or
something like that.
And then afterwards, you know Idid, I really didn't dwell on

(40:03):
it very long, I think it wasmore.
I've gotten pretty good atdiffusion, in a sense of just
being like look like me,ruminating about this isn't
going to do anything.
I mean, I've cried in front ofsupervisors before.
It's never led to anythingterrible.
Everyone I know has cried infront of supervisors.
Um, what is me worrying aboutthis going to accomplish Nothing

(40:26):
?
Um, so just kind of being likewhatever, I just let it go.
I don't know that I needed to.
I mean, I guess the re, the,it's not really a reframe, but
it's at least just bringing downcatastrophic thinking to say
like, yeah, I already know thisabout myself, I already know a.
One more person noticed thething.
That is very noticeable andalways has been cool, Like

(40:49):
that's not news.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:54):
So what you're doing is, I would say,
like partway opposite action.
It's me, it's a little bit moreof emotional acceptance, right,
you're accepting that thisfeels painful when you got
criticized.
I'm wondering, if you, whathappens if you go all the way
opposite action and say itopenly and proudly?

(41:16):
Do you remember the Friendsepisode where Phoebe, like the
girls, phoebe and the girls werecriticizing each other and you
know like Phoebe was like, oh,rachel, you're a pushover and
monica, you're high maintenance.
And they were like they wentinto a tizzy and they came back

(41:36):
and they were so mad and theywere like, well, phoebe, you are
flaky.
And she was like, yeah, I am,huh, I'm flaky.
I think he's the best yeah, whatif you phoebe'd it and just
went like, yeah, I'mdisorganized, I have, I have
wild ADHD uh, I mean, I don'tknow, that confident don't not

(42:07):
not like.
I'm apologizing and Iunderstand that I'm sorry that
I'm crying, but it's okay, justbe like.
Yeah, man, I have adhd yeah, I,I, I think that I say I.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:19):
I have adhd, I'm disorganized.
It's hard for me to stick toschedules, unless you are my
patient, even occasionally, thenno harder, brag, Brag to me
about your ADHD.
Oh, I can brag to you about myADHD.
I mean, I think that itprobably makes me a more fun and
creative person.
It makes me more forgiving ofothers.

(42:40):
I think that being a sticklerabout times and being organized,
it makes some sense.
But you know there are lots ofcultures in this world that
think that it's perfectly okayto arrive two hours late to
something, so it's notobjectively a bad trait.
Why are you making that face atme?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:05):
I'm sorry, it's not objectively.
A bad trait is your way ofbragging, honey.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:10):
I've heard you brag more than that I
mean, I don't think that beinglate for shit is something to
brag about try it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:18):
Try it just for me, try it just for the fun
of opposite action.
I want to see what happens.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:22):
Humor me uh, I just don't feel like
you're to feel this way once I'mlate for something with you
that you really needed me to beon time for.
You're man, you're a toughtherapy patient.
I think it's hard for well.
Yeah, I am a tough therapypatient.
I dodge everything.
Um, I'll do it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:45):
I have wild amounts of ADHD.
I can walk on the street inlost in thought and literally
not visibly not see anything.
I've had friends wave in frontof me and I do not see them.
I've played video games or donewhere I like literally go into
another world and the rest ofthe world I've like most movies

(44:08):
that I watched.
I don't remember that's whythat's you know what.
I love it because I could watcha movie over and over again and
it's still surprising, like I'mlike what's gonna happen and
alex will be like we watchedthis like two weeks ago so yeah,
that's what I mean by optionaction.
What if we leaned into the yes,I have made fun of it, made fun

(44:32):
of for it?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:33):
I am disorganized and that's okay,
because super organized peopleare often kind of boring and
anal and they care too muchabout stupid things.
And I feel like I care aboutthe things that have more
substance and matter and Iapologize to anybody who's
really organized that have moresubstance and matter and I
apologize to anybody who'sreally organized.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:55):
Don't slam other people for it.
It's been interesting.
I've never actually triedopposite action with you but it
is Just so.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbul (45:03):
Everyone knows my fiance is super
organized and I love him morethan anyone, so you know it's
really.
But I do think that sometimesmy brain works by filtering out
the shit that doesn't isn't asimportant to me.
But other people disagree withthose assessments that I make.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:22):
How does that feel?
I mean like solid B plus.
I would say in terms of optionaction.
I didn't hear much bragging.
I heard much, like you know,stoic defensiveness, but sure
you know.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:40):
I don't really know how being
disorganized benefits me.
I think that's hard to.
I'm finding it hard to find.
How do you think beingdisorganized benefits me?
I can't think of some ideas.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:57):
Not the point .
Anyway, everyone is stillconfused on what we're doing.
There could be all thesedifferent applications of all
the cognitive behavioral therapyskills that we know when you're
feeling dysphoric rejection,dysphoric, right so, all these
different emotion regulationskills that we've talked about,

(46:19):
one is I think this is the onethat you're leaning towards
which is the cognitive ones oflike, talking your way through
it and really being like okay,is this the worst thing?
Am I, do people?
Am I, you know, hateable andrejectable and terrible, and is
the world gonna end because ofthis criticism?

(46:39):
Um, is it possible that they'renot even criticizing me?
They mean something else, right?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:44):
these are all, like, different ways of
thinking what I just want tomake an asterisk about that one.
So a lot of the times peopleare like, yeah, well, arguing
with myself doesn't work, butone thing that it can do.
I actually worked with apatient earlier today who used a
thought record to bring hisemotion down and I was actually

(47:05):
kind of surprised that it workedno-transcript emotion.

(47:29):
So even just like labeling youremotions and, you know, getting
more into your control centercan be helpful.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:37):
That is what I saw in the research, that even
just I mean this is the, thename it to tame it principle
with emotion regulation, like ifyou're feeling dysphoria, so
sad from being rejected, you cansay in that moment to yourself
I'm feeling RSD, like right nowI'm in a dysphoric state, I'm
really, really sad, I'm in painbecause rejection is so painful

(48:01):
for me.
And that's what's going on andI know it will pass.
It's not the end of the world,it's not like you know.
It might not the end of theworld, it's not like you know.
It might not be true, all thedifferent thoughts that are
floating through my head rightnow, but here, here it is,
here's my cloud of shame.
So they're just labeling.
It's just sometimes peopleknowing that it's called

(48:24):
rejection, sensitivity,dysphoria, and maybe that has
more power than just calling itshame, right, just having like a
psychological word for it,right, like come on gaslighting
is like a bunch of differentstuff, but now that we have a
term for it, we feel a littlebit more empowered.
So maybe, just like having theterm RSD makes it sound more

(48:45):
like yeah, it's a thing.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (48:48):
Yeah, I can kind of see that there's
also diffusion techniques thatcan work.
Literally singing to yourselfRSD, you know, just like.
Or like rejection, rejection,rejection, rejection, rejection,
rejection, rejection, rejectionI'm a failure, I'm a failure,
I'm a failure, I'm a failure,I'm a failure, I'm a failure.
Like so fast that the wordsstart to lose meaning is a
common technique as well.

(49:08):
That the words start to losemeaning is a common technique as
well.
Talking to yourself in the voiceof your least favorite
politician Now, donald Trump isnot everybody's least favorite
politician, but he does make areally, really good one for this
exercise because he has such adistinctive kind of voice and
cartoonish way of talking.
So imagining Trump saying toyou like you're fired or you

(49:28):
know, that was terrible,whatever the fuck he says, you
know, whatever, just like usinghis voice, can kind of give a
humorous bent and also make itseem somewhat ridiculous.
The things you say to yourself,like Kibbe just gave us a bunch
about how she's worthless andis going to fail at everything,
that's actually shit.
That Trump says like overTwitter, right, and a lot of us

(49:51):
look at that and we're like, wow, like that's ridiculous.
When you can give your ownvoice, that Trump's voice.
It can illustrate to you.
You know what?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (50:02):
you're doing to yourself?
Basically, you're giving theinner critic inside you a
different voice than your ownand being like oh there, it.
There is the trump voice again,or whatever you want to call it.
I, I'm, I'm, I'm realizing thatI'm, I wouldn't.
I think it's called.
I think I would call itopposite action.
I think that when I was goinginto college, I had been so

(50:25):
rejected, made fun of.
I was just really, I reallyfelt like an outcast coming from
high school to college, that Iwas had a lot of social anxiety,
um.
But then I think I walkedaround being like yeah, I'm, I'm
awkward, I'm an awkward person,I'm weird, I'm a weird kid,
right, and I just like reallyleaned into it to the point
where I feel like that just mademe more comfortable with myself

(50:48):
.
And then with social rejection,it's interesting as soon as you
flip the inside and it's weird,it's a paradox You're constantly
looking for acceptance fromother people, but when you have
that goal, when you're actuallylike so externally focused for
that validation, you're lesslikely to get it right.

(51:09):
Like when you're desperate, soexternally focused for that
validation, you're less likelyto get it right.
Like when you're desperate,people don't like that.
People smell it, yeah.
So as soon as you say like I'mweird, I'm awkward, I have adhd,
like yeah, I mean, it might notbe like a great quality, but
like I feel like the times I'veowned up to the qualities I've
had as like and even just like,see it as a strength.

(51:33):
That usually changes, like myvibe, and then I get that social
acceptance from other people.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:41):
So I mean I think in general, like I
do not hate having ADHD, I thinkit comes with a ton of benefits
.
Me needing a constant dopaminefix has meant that I've lived an
interesting life, so I maybehave ADHD to thank for it.
I think that helps with thatshame around it to not just see

(52:02):
myself as a broken person.
There is something about beingcalled out for it or my behavior
being misinterpreted.
That's actually more maybe dueto adhd is very painful to me,
um, but I think probably that isat least modulated by me, not

(52:23):
inherently like hating myselffor it.
So finding pride in your ADHD,I think can be really protective
and I mean, like you know, youcan do some research about all
the good that can come with ADHD.
People with ADHD can tend to bemore adventurous, more creative
, more sociable, extroverted.

(52:43):
In some people they're notright because they're avoiding
social situations because ofthis component no-transcript

(53:15):
every single day up until theday they do it.
Then doing it at the lastminute, turning it in and being
like well, if only I had done itearlier, then it would have
been way better.
And it's like maybe, but maybenot Like maybe somebody who
would do it earlier actuallywouldn't have that big
motivational push and like flowstate that you get into when

(53:38):
there is a lot of pressure, andso maybe it's not a problem to
save everything to the lastminute If you reliably do get it
done.
Our society also punishes nightowls.
It says that they're, you know,young, immature, whatever it's
like why?
That's just a circadian rhythm.
If you're a night owl, be anight owl until there's a really
compelling reason not to be,like having a kid who wakes up

(53:59):
screaming at six in the morning.
So you know, really think aboutlike Are my symptoms actually a
problem or have I just beentaught by society that it's a
problem?
Are my symptoms actually anissue broadly, or is it just
this one environment that we'rein?

(54:19):
We know that our schools are runin a very particular way that
is not best for everybody'slearning style.
That doesn't mean anybody isstupid.
Anybody's stupid.
That means that maybe they're.
They just don't learn bysitting, being bored for eight
hours a day, starting way earlyin the morning and being droned
out for forever.
There might be other ways tomake your brain have superpowers

(54:41):
, so discovering that as well.
I like working with people withADHD and trying to restructure
some of these beliefs that theyhave about themselves, because I
think a lot of actually ADHDsymptoms can go down, because I
think there's a big interactioneffect with anxiety and
self-hatred.
If you have low self-esteem youwill do poorer at things

(55:03):
generally because you don'tbelieve in yourself to improve.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:09):
Yeah, I mean, I think that this extends
beyond ADHD.
I think we're talking abouthere is the antidote to RSD.
The antidote to rejection,sensitivity, dysphoria, is to
try to lean hard into theself-love and self-acceptance.
And as we were talking, I wasjust thinking about my past few
weeks and I was like, oh no, Ireally had some.

(55:30):
I was just thinking about mypast few weeks and I was like,
oh no, I really had some.
I had.
I would feel like it'sdepression or I feel like it's
my rumination over, like how I'mnot good enough.
And I, it was like last weekyeah, it was last week I had
this spell where I was just, youknow, we're trying to be more
public, public facing, get oninstagram and do this and, you

(55:51):
know, start a business.
And I was beating myself upbecause I saw other people
online be more braggy aboutthemselves, be just more like
this is why I'm amazing.
You should follow me, becauseI'm, I know, more than you and I
like I.
I was laying in bed and I andAlex was asking if I was okay

(56:13):
and I didn't even.
I couldn't even talk, like Iwas so upset I said I don't, I'm
not able to do that.
I have been horrible aboutself-promotion.
I I don't even know what mystrengths are beyond being able
to read and bolster up otherpeople Like I've just been so

(56:34):
steeped in thinking about.
You know the community and howpainful it can be to be like the
carer, or like someone or thepeople pleaser, the someone
who's defined their identitythrough being able to read other
people and focus on their needsand just ignore their own.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:53):
Right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:53):
And I'm just like I don't know how to stand
up and say I'm amazing, I've hadthis, I'm a dude, I have this
quality right, like even justthe, the, the bravado and and um
ego that actually works.
Right, the self-promotion.
And then I went into like aspiral for a while and then I

(57:14):
and then and you know this causeI've also texted you being like
why, like?
Why do people like me?
But I think I tried tointentionally lean in and decide
like I'm not really gonna getthis blessing from the universe
that I'm worthy or that peoplelike me, but I'm just going to
be like, that is my strength,I'm able to read other people

(57:37):
really well, and I'm going tolean into accepting and being
proud of that and not being like, oh, I'm going to be rejected,
not be successful because thatI'm other oriented and not be
successful because that I'mother oriented.
So I think that's just that.
I guess that's my personal storylately of how I'm trying to
overcome my RSD by saying thisis who I am Like.
I have ADHD.

(57:58):
I don't notice things around me.
I don't remember any moviesthat we're watching.
I tend to focus on other peopleand I'm way more.
I'm way better when I'mbouncing off someone than when
I'm alone in a room tellingpeople why they should trust me.
That's just who I am, and somedays I'm crushed with, like I'm,

(58:19):
you know, not worthy for it,and and other days I just have
to be like no, this is who I am,right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:28):
Yeah, I think I do find I do feel that
way most of the time, and thenwhen a supervisor is like above
me on the hierarchy, pointsomething out and then I feel
like something's at stake and sothere's that element too.
I just it's really hard not totake the bait of you saying that
there's something wrong withyou for not being able to

(58:49):
basically have zero humility andlike pitch yourself as if
you're the messiah, like wewould get so punished for that
in grad school.
It would be unreal right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:02):
that's why I felt very comfortable in, in, in
, like the, the, in the therapysetting.
That's why I'm comfortable heretalking to you, because I feel
like I could disappear into you.
I'm looking at myself right now.
It's making my stomach turnright.
So it's really reinforced.
And if you're a caregiver, ifyou're a mom, if you are the

(59:25):
parentified kid, yeah, being apeople pleaser is really
reinforced.
But then if you have to, let'ssay, make a reel on Instagram
telling people why they shouldtrust you over anyone else, yeah
, you know.
So I'm running up against myown like areas of I like don't

(59:45):
have what it takes, but then Ijust have to keep leaning in and
being like all right, you know,I, I know we've known in our
clients, we've see it.
When people are obsessed withreading rejection and others, it
creates the rejection, right,you either don't show yourself.
You either act in ways that doget the rejection.
You're reading that you'd likeif you I hate that this is such

(01:00:10):
a manifestation mindset thing,but like if you have the mindset
I'm rejectable.
Yeah, you tend to get morerejected and the moment where
you're like I'm the shit, likepeople start treating you like
the shit.
That's my self esteem, antirejection.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:00:27):
Tip.
Oh, we should do an episode onmanifestation rejection tip.
Oh, we should do an episode onmanifestation oh boy, okay, okay
, let's see if there's actualresearch on it.
Yeah, well, it works in a lotof.
I'm not saying I'm gonna likemanifest, you know having a pet
pink dolphin, but and then it'sgonna magically show up.
But anyway, we'll save it forthat episode.

(01:00:48):
I think that a lot of times whenwe feel really rejected, what
we're often being criticized foris the dark side of one of our
assets.
So you gave an example whereyou have an asset of humility.
The dark side of it is thatit's difficult to self-promote.
I think people with ADHD have,you know, a light side of being

(01:01:14):
fun and spontaneous and a darkside of being disorganized.
Or, you know, less methodical,a lot of the times, like the
very things we love ourselvesfor they don't work in every
single context, and then we getrejected and then we feel like

(01:01:34):
shit, but we're not really meantto work in every single context
, yeah, yeah.
So I think maybe just beingable to tune into like, okay,
this is an example maybe of myasset not working in this exact
context, but it doesn't meanthat I'm missing an asset.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:01:47):
Yep, I would agree.
Anything else, no.
I think that's good.
I think we've figured out thatRSD is intense shame.
That's our working hypothesis,and maybe we have weird
reactions to shame in ways thatsociety is recognizing or

(01:02:08):
grappling with compared to othertimes.
But it'll be interesting.
Yeah, this is a really populartopic.
It's just interesting to pieceapart like how, like from a
diagnosis standpoint, like whatis this?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:02:25):
Yeah, it doesn't feel like a well
defined construct.
It doesn't feel paired apartfrom shame enough.
It'd be interesting to lookmore into the neurobiological
research to see are thereactually like activated brain
structures that are unique toADHD?
Truly like.
I remember actually growing upmy mom said I think you have

(01:02:45):
like a larger anterior cingulateor something which is like a
part of the brain that can besensitive to shame and rejection
.
Cause I would get like verylike I was like a really good
kid cause I was terrified ofgetting called out.
I still have a memory of infirst grade, the student teacher
I was talking to.
The student teacher goes Jack,and I was like you know so
clearly.

(01:03:05):
I had this going on a long timeago.
But yeah, I don't know thejury's out for me on whether
this is truly specific to ADHD,even though there's evidence for
it.
I just wonder if that is anoperational Wow, if RSD, maybe,

(01:03:26):
is being studied more in thingslike ADHD and shame is being
studied more in BPD.
If it's an operationalization,I can't say that word.
Say it, say it.
Operationalization,operationalization, no, okay,
yeah, I think so Is she?

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:03:46):
Who hates rejection?
Some people hate it a lot.
Yeah, it hurts.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:03:52):
And people who have been like
criticized and picked on theirwhole lives probably hate it a
little bit more.
And people who have behaviorsthat are going to get them
criticized and picked on, likepeople with ADHD, are, you know,
good candidates for that?
So I don't know.
That seems to be the mostrunning hypothesis, but

(01:04:12):
hypothesis.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:12):
But well, I mean, this is stuff that we do
in the community and in the coolof my community we're going to
do, um, uh, different kinds ofskills and exercises to actually
work through this rejectionsensitivity.
So, because I know that a lotof people who are caring for
others, a lot are like peoplepleasers, so well, if you're
interested coolamindcom coolfans, I think this is pretty

(01:04:35):
easy tie-in to.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:04:36):
You don't want to make me feel
rejection sensitive, so give usfive star reading on podcast and
spotify.

Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:04:44):
Please somebody tell kibbe what she's
good at just follow me on cool amind at on instagram.
That's all I care about.
All I care about I'm working sohard folks, this is like a real
growth edge okay sign up forthe community.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:05:02):
We'll be doing workshops and we'll see
you next week.
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