June 11, 2025 • 60 mins
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Ever wonder why holding your partner's hand during a stressful moment instantly calms you down? The answer lies in the fascinating neurobiological dance of co-regulation – when two nervous systems attune to and influence each other, creating safety, connection, and resilience that neither person could achieve alone.
In this episode, we explore the multidimensional nature of co-regulation in romantic relationships, moving beyond the simplistic idea that partners merely "calm each other down." Through personal stories – including TWO exciting life updates for Jacqueline! – we unpack how healthy relationships support each other across three different levels of connection.
The science is compelling. Research shows that a loving partner's touch literally reduces brain activity in regions associated with threat response. But we also tackle the shadow side: when does the need for co-regulation cross into dependency, control, or emotional manipulation? How do we balance healthy interdependence with personal responsibility for our emotional lives?
Whether you're currently partnered or not, understanding co-regulation reveals profound truths about human connection. We're biologically wired to share emotional burdens, amplify each other's joy, and create meaning together. By developing awareness of our emotional patterns and protective mechanisms, we can transform relationships from battlegrounds into sanctuaries where both people feel safe enough to be fully themselves.
***If you're like "wow that sounds good, but I have NO idea how to co-regulate with my partner," then you've come to the right place- that's what we teach at KulaMind. We're launching our exclusive KulaMind community July 14th, which we're not technically supposed to tell you yet...oh well.
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers, today isa fun one.
We are going to continue ourconversation from last week
about couples and the.
You know, the last time wetalked about, like the
(00:22):
withdrawal or sewer dynamic, butthis time we're going to talk
about how to come together, howto co-regulate each other, this
kind of ideal state for forcouples.
But we're going to start theconversation with life updates,
particularly my life updates,and talk about how my wonderful
(00:43):
fiance co-regulates with me.
Um, so yeah, Kibby, do you haveanything to say about KulaMind?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:54):
You just like dropped the bomb and then pass
it on to me.
Uh sure, yeah, KulaMind, um.
KulaMind, we got some excitingstuff.
So KulaMind, if you don't know,is our platform where we teach
you all the skills that we'retalking about, which is how to
manage a relationship withsomeone who has mental illness
(01:15):
or addiction or emotiondysregulation so how to take
care of yourself but alsostrategies for how to
communicate effectively andsupport them.
We are launching a group in acouple of couple weeks, in July
22nd I think and so we want youto join.
It's going to be awesome, it'sgoing to be a bunch of us, it's
going to teach all the skillsthat we talk about.
(01:37):
We're going to be reallyfriendly and really supportive
and just have a lot of fun.
So if you're interested, checkout coolmind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
And if you're not sure what thefuck I'm talking about, there's
a way to just book a call withme.
Even if you just want to chatand have like free 30-minute
therapy, like there I am, Ishouldn't have advertised that.
(01:59):
That's not official therapy,it's just, you know, assessment
and consultation.
Yeah, okay, over to you and theactual exciting updates.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:12):
What happened this weekend?
The first exciting update isthat we can remove the
disclaimer at the end of ourepisodes pretty soon because I
passed my dissertation defense,so I will no longer be directly
affiliated with Duke University,which I'm sure is a relief for
them.
Um, no, but defending thedissertation was a great
experience.
Um, everything went off withouta hitch, which was a relief.
(02:35):
Um, you know, my advisor wasreally great and like took us
all out to dinner, um, and Idon't know, it was just it's.
I feel like I was waiting forthe defense to pass before it
felt like the rest of my lifecould start and it passed.
And then the day after that,jason proposed to me.
So we're now, we're really.
(02:56):
It started life.
You're really adulting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:02):
Yay, oh, you really did.
Oh sorry, everyone, I've lostmy voice.
So this is a great time topodcast.
I'm gonna hack up every once ina while to just just regulate
you all.
You did a super, super good job.
I know that you were.
You were so anxious before andit was so funny.
(03:22):
We like couldn't find the roomthat you were presenting in.
We couldn't figure out how toconnect the computer to the
projector.
I mean, it was just like acomedy of errors coming into it.
And I remember you were textingme all sorts of questions about
stats.
You were like, oh my god, okay,why did I choose this
(03:43):
statistical?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (03:44):
plan.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:45):
And I was like, oh my God, you know this
and also you could just read itLike what's going on and you
were just.
But it was such a goodpresentation.
You were able to dive into thedetails and really show that you
knew so much aboutmentalization and empathy and
shame and borderline personalitydisorder, but also could make
it relatable and borderlinepersonality disorder and but
(04:07):
also can make it relatable likeyou, really like we're talking
about.
You know being able to read theroom, so to speak, and you did
a really hard study.
I mean, for someone who doesn'tlike research, you did like a
really hard dissertation, likeyou developed, you basically did
like a behavioral study ofshame online which needed to
(04:27):
validate, like a measure thatyou made up, a task that you
made up, which is hard, Iobjected, say why all these
things were not hard.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (04:36):
But, um , yeah, I'll take it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:37):
Yeah, you could do that Sure.
No but it I mean it's just itwas such a beautiful moment
because, like you really havegrown so much.
It was like so cool to watchyou from like the moment you
came into interview, to likethat moment, because you were
probably as equally terrifiedand insecure from start to
(05:00):
finish.
But just like your mastery ofthis stuff is just really really
amazing and you should bereally proud.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:07):
Well, thank you, that's very kind I
should do an episode on.
Is it actually possible to beproud of yourself, because I
find this difficult to dosometimes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:23):
I mean yes maybe not for you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:31):
I'm fine.
I'm feeling the urge to likeimmediately discredit myself,
which I don't know why I do, andI am examining that as this
examination of this week is.
Why do I keep discreditingmyself in all sorts of ways that
then leads people to think thatI'm fully immature?
Um, so yeah, thank you.
I am proud of myself.
(05:54):
I am waiting for the momentwhen it hits like I don't know,
I keep waiting for something tolike click into place, but, um,
but yeah, you're Dr Trumbull,you know that right, you could.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:08):
You could put on your everything.
Can I or do I have?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:11):
to wait three months until I graduate.
I don't know what the rules arewith that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:15):
When you defend your dissertation that's
like you get, you get it.
I mean, you finished theprogram, but you, you got your,
you.
You know you passed yourdefense for your dissertation
your new instagram handle drtrombolina.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:31):
Dr trombolina, that's really
professional um yeah, I mean I,I feel I'm just not dreading
anything in my life now.
Um, in any you know major way.
Everything that I have to donow feels conquerable.
(06:52):
I mean I, I know that's nottechnically true for literally
the rest of my life, but like inthe near future, I mean I want
to do a separate grad schoolepisode, but, um, grad school is
just, it's not even that.
I think it's necessarily thatmuch harder than other people's
jobs.
It really might not be at all.
Um, I don't know if people havetheir opinions, but it just
(07:13):
feels like it's a constantgauntlet.
It's like, and you're evaluatedall the time.
Um, it's like these bigmilestones all the time and, um,
they were just like okay, likeonce I pass that gauntlet, then
I'll like be legit or like thatgauntlet, and then I'll finally
understand this stuff and tojust like not have that be
(07:34):
hovering over my head, exceptfor the E triple P, which feels
stupider, I don't know.
Um, it's just really nice andit was also nice to end, duke,
on a high note.
Um, you know, I always kind ofhate the school I'm in until I
end and then suddenly I'm like,ah, what a lovely, amazing place
(07:55):
.
You know, like UVA is, is justenshrined in my mind as this
like wonderful place, eventhough I didn't have that great
of a time there, um.
So you know that's kind ofhappening to Duke now, but yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:09):
I mean, I think the irony is that I mean
research is me search, right.
So it's like your shame reallymesses up your experience of
most things and it's also liketaking away.
I mean, like I I'm glad thatyou feel relieved and like that
you don't have this like swordis hanging over your head, but
(08:31):
you know, like you're so shameprone that it's just like you
can't even be like I did areally hard thing, like I can do
research now.
You know, but yeah, you, yeah,you know it's not an
intervention, we'll just leaveit and you feel like, though,
that grad school like makes thischronic humility problem for
(08:53):
women.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (08:54):
I feel like I was constantly told to be
like humble, like be, you know,like don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:59):
I don't know, I think.
I think that's unfortunately alot of industries.
I think that a lot ofcompetitive industries.
I think that's unfortunately alot of industries, I think that
a lot of competitive industries.
I find that in industry, I findthat in academia, grad school,
where it's like men are told totalk openly and not even told,
but given messages and goodfeedback If you talk openly
(09:20):
about who you are and the thingsyou are and what you believe in
right.
But for us it's like checkyourself, make sure that you're
behaving appropriately, smile,don't wear this, don't wear that
, like there's a lot of emphasison us managing ourselves to
please other people.
Yeah, that's sexism, you know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (09:39):
Yeah, I just think it was like
unbelievably present in my gradschool experience the amount of
times I was told to like, yeah,behave, check yourself, like be
more humble, be modest, tonedown.
And so then you know you havethese big milestone achievements
and it's kind of hard to thenpivot and be like yes, I'm the
best Sure.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:58):
I think you had a particularly hard time
because you came in with a bangLike everyone's like oh my God,
this is the girl from thebachelor, right?
So like there's a lot of likeimage of you out there and image
to shape and learn to controlin some legit ways.
Like you know, like pivotingfrom being seen on the bachelor
to pivoting to a professionaltherapist is different and it
(10:21):
takes like kind of intentionalimage management.
Yeah, however it's, it was likekind of intentional image
management.
Yeah, however it's, it was likeintense because there was a lot
of assumptions poured on youbecause of that.
So yeah.
Yeah, you had it harder in thatway.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:35):
Well, anyway, I don't want to blow our
load for the grad schoolepisode, but we can talk about
the other exciting thing wherethe little next day, literally
the next day, yes, jasonproposed to you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:46):
Tell us about , tell us a story well.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:48):
So I mean, I obviously had an inkling
that he would propose, becauseI'd already booked the wedding
venue, so, and he had rsvp'd um,so I was pretty sure that at
some point he would propose.
Also, I designed my, designedmy own ring, um, and I knew that
he had purchased it, but Ididn't know when he was going to
(11:10):
do it, and you and him colludedto make me think that it would
be in New York.
So, uh, I was like kind of 50,50 on whether it would happen.
I was more like I was like 40,60, but anyways, dissertation
was great.
He was originally not going tocome because his son's driver's
test was that day and then, Iwould say, lightly whined about
(11:32):
that and he chose mydissertation, which you know I
hate like his son gettingscrewed over and like I think
that Kai is okay with this andlike didn't even remember that
that was when his driver testwas originally scheduled for.
But it was really nice to haveJason Cause I originally, like
(11:53):
before you changed your patient,I like thought that I was going
to have to Uber over therealone and oh my God, what a
catastrophe that would have been, given that the location did
not show up in Google maps.
Um, so you know, jason likedrove me to the dissertation and
was there for me and wecelebrated that day.
And he told me like the nextday he had some things planned
to help me relax after thedissertation.
(12:15):
It turned out he had bookedlike a spa treatment at like the
nice, really nice spa there,and then they canceled on him
two days before, which which, um, would make me ballistic if I
were him.
But anyway, so that morning,like, we went to brunch and knew
a spot, and then he was like Ididn't get you anything for
passing your defense, so I justthought I'd take you shopping,
(12:38):
which is just really funnybecause, like, if you think
about things that jacquelinewould like to do at any given
moment, shopping with somebodyelse's money is probably top of
the list.
So he took me shopping.
I didn't really find that muchI liked.
I bought a bunch of books and ajumper or a romper, that's it.
And then we were, we just hadsome time to kill before dinner.
(13:04):
We were, we just had some timeto kill before dinner, and so he
suggested going to take a walkin Duke Gardens, which, again,
like should have cued me.
Like why would we drive to adifferent town to walk around in
gardens that I've been to manytimes and then drive back to the
first town for dinner.
But we went to Duke Gardens andwe're walking around and I guess
(13:26):
at this point I should mentionto any new listeners here that I
have really bad body imageproblems and, um, normally I
kind of speak irreverently aboutthis, but I don't know if that
would go over well.
So I'll just say I gained like15 pounds in the last couple of
years, probably because I turned30 and went on Lexapro and it's
(13:47):
made me really insecure, like I.
You know I obsess about it.
I'm like compulsively makingcomments about it, um, and I
don't know how to stop.
And, um, I think I have prettystrong mental health overall,
but that is not my best area.
(14:08):
So the point is we were walkingaround and he saw a like cute
bridge and he asked to take apicture of me and I hated the
picture.
I thought I looked fat in itand so I started compulsively
like making these comments andhe sits me down on a bench and
starts saying incredibly sweetthings to me, and I thought he
(14:28):
was just trying to comfort mebecause I was saying that you
know I was ugly, et cetera.
And then, of course, he's likesaying these really sweet things
.
So I start kind of tearing upand crying a little bit.
He's like no, no, no, no, don'tstart crying, it's OK.
I'm like why You're sayingreally sweet things?
But he thought it was because Iwas upset about you know, not
(14:50):
being skinny, um, and anyways,then he started, he kind of like
launched into even more of aspeech and he used this tone of
voice that he had used tojokingly proposed to me in the
past.
So at first I was like shut thefuck up, like okay.
Then I like saw he like kind ofpaused and then I saw the like
(15:10):
imprint of the box in his pocket.
I was like, oh shit.
And then I started likesilently crying and I wish I
could bottle up his speechbecause that was my.
That was the best part of thewhole thing.
He just like said incrediblysweet things, um, I think the
gist of it was like the bestthing that ever happened to him.
(15:31):
So it's his son, obviously, um,and I've just changed his life
and I make every moment anadventure and his life has
expanded so much because of me,um, and he has just gotten to
have so many new experiences and, um, you know he's grateful for
(15:51):
that and you know he wants tocontinue that forever and you
know I love you so much, etcetera, um, so yeah.
So he proposed he did not getdown on one knee because it, uh,
because he's, first of all,he's a thousand years old, um,
and it was leg day two days agoor two days prior.
So he's like I can't, I won'tbe able to get up.
(16:11):
I'm just kidding.
He's 41 years old, um, but helikes to talk about how he's a
thousand years old because hefeels like his body is always
breaking in various ways, andmainly from workout injuries.
So, yeah, so then we just likeFaceTimed my parents and then
his mom, and it was really weirdbecause his mom was like the
(16:33):
most loving person on planetearth, um, but I think because
it was so hot and his face waslike really red, she kept being
like are you, are you okay?
I'm like Carol, of course he'sokay.
He just proposed to me, likeare you okay?
I'm like Carol, of course he'sokay.
He just proposed to me, like,why are you acting like he
should not be okay?
Right after proposing to me, um,but anyway, then we went home,
(16:57):
we got changed and then he toldme he had dinner reservations
for us and then like a hotelroom so that we didn't have to
worry about like getting home orwhatever.
We could just stick arounddowntown and like, have fun as
much as we wanted.
So then we show up at thedinner and the host is like oh,
fisher, table for 12.
I was like oh shit.
(17:18):
So then all of you guys werethere and you'd all look like
coordinated and like a friend ofmine from out of town came.
Well, you're a friend from outof town, so you came, and also
Sarah, another friend from outof town, came.
So, um, it was super lovely andwe just had dinner and stayed at
the restaurant as long as wewanted and then went to a
rooftop and then passed out inour hotel room, which was
(17:41):
probably not the purpose of thehotel room as he initially
envisioned it.
But, um, yeah, and then youknow, just continue to have fun
the next day.
That's so cute.
But I want to hear how he wasbehind the scenes, because he
told me that he ruminated at youand Rachel scenes because he
(18:07):
told me that he ruminated at youand Rachel a little bit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:08):
It's so funny because you're one of my best
friends and I barely know himand it was like a nice time to
get to know him a little bitmore.
Like we talked around yourdissertation and um got to play
a little bit with him.
He got had anything, everythingunder control and he was just
like kind of a little anxiousabout the change of plans with
the, with the massage, and alsothe rain was going to happen I
(18:29):
probably threw a a bomb in hisanxiety where I was just like so
you're going to go to raleigh,have brunch and shopping and
then you're going to drive 30minutes to durham to take a walk
in the sweltering heat and thendrive back to Raleigh and you
don't think she's going to findout?
but thankfully, but no, I mean,he, he seemed like confident and
(18:55):
in love and he just it, liketalking to him, I talked a
little bit a lot to him abouthis relationship with you and
his past relationship historyLike well, we're waiting for
your dissertation.
And he just, I think that'sthat's.
I mean I wanted to bring thisup for this topic of
co-regulation as a couple,because there's some the thing
that stands out between you guysis like how calm you feel
(19:19):
around each other, like you areclearly each other's safe haven.
Right, there's there isn't.
Like I hate to bring up yourlast engagement, but I I think
we should actually look likelisten to our podcast from, like
from after that.
But you, you always seemed morelike anxious and tense and like
(19:41):
I got to make this work and hereyou just have this ease with
him.
And there was an ease in theway he described your
relationship and like hisgreatest concerns was like in
the future, will he have moretime with you and how can he
make that happen?
Um, yeah, and I was like areyou nervous?
He was like, no, I'm not, Ijust want to get this done, I
(20:05):
want to do this, I want to start, you know.
So it just like, it's justlovely to watch you watch, like
this weekend, of all these lifeevents, and watching you two
navigated together just likecomfortable within each other,
it was really nice.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (20:18):
Yeah, it's.
You know, my, my ex gave afabulous proposal.
It was outstanding andgrandiose and everything I
should have.
I mean, I was grateful, right.
But I think there was so muchchaos in that relationship that
last night I was like going tobed and I was just like Jason's
proposal was very simple and butI was like crying a little bit,
(20:40):
thinking about like how sweethe was and how much I know he is
kind of like fretted about notdisappointing me and, um, you
know, cause that last one waslike a hard proposal to follow
and I did not need a repeat ofthat by any means, but it was
just like really sweet, justimagining him like texting
everybody and trying to make meproud and happy, and how anxious
(21:02):
he was about that aspect ofthings that he reported to me.
So it was just like I don'tknow, it was just really sweet.
He's just like such a good.
He's such a good boy and, yeah,he's definitely my safe haven.
Um, I mean, I used to feel, youknow, I would only see him on
the weekends for like the firstyear of our relationship and I
(21:23):
used to get kind of anxious assoon as I had to leave because
it was like I'm not the most, Idon't think I'm the most anxious
person ever, but, um, you know,when you know that, like the
person who makes you feel safestin your world is going to be
absent for five days, and it'sjust like oh, um, and I would
feel that I would feel thatdifference.
(21:43):
So, yeah, um, but yeah, I mean,I hope I'm not for him as well.
Sometimes he feels like somature and so adult that I'm
like can I even be that personfor him?
But um, well, actually it'sinteresting thinking of like
sorry say that again.
(22:04):
And that probably has more to dowith my beliefs about myself
than anything.
Yeah, the shame.
There we go.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:09):
Yeah, that's, that's the next topic.
No, I mean it's.
It's really interesting tolearn more about co-regulation.
Trying to bring it back to theacademic stuff um, from
emotional emotion, emotionallyfocused therapy or emotional
focused, emotion focused therapy, eft right when I think I
(22:31):
thought of co-regulation or justregulation in general in
relationships.
I thought it was just calmingdown, right, like most of the
research is talking about howmoms and their stress levels
help calm babies down.
So if I'm calm and I'm holdingmy baby, it helps them calm down
.
So it's it's two nervoussystems regulating each other
(22:54):
and I just assume it was allabout calm down.
So it's it's two nervoussystems regulating each other
and I just assume it was allabout calming down.
Um, but actually when we learnan EFT, there's three different
roads to connection.
There's the high road, which isthe honeymoon, fun, sex, play,
right, high energy.
Then there's the middle road,like the practical things you
know, getting the day-to-daystuff done.
(23:16):
And then the low road, which isbeing vulnerable with each
other and talking about hardthings and keeping each other
safe and you know, yeah, feelingsafe and comforted during some
like unpleasant or vulnerablefeelings.
So it's really about regulatingeach other where you need to be
on each of those roads Right,like so if you're regulating up
(23:39):
right, you're like able to havefun and able to engage each
other and play and make fun andjoke and you know, like enjoy
each other, but if you need tobe in that vulnerable place,
then you regulate.
Regulate there by just likeproviding that kind of safe
haven.
So I see that in both and like,maybe for you, like I just saw
(24:00):
it all this weekend, where Iactually took a video of it so
I'm gonna show you.
But when you were waiting foryour dissertation, he was like
you were, you were so cute, youwere like hugging and kissing
him and I've never seen you thatlike openly affectionate with
someone like you just like can'tkeep your hands off.
You're like hugging and kissinghim and teasing like you're.
You like look like your body isdrawn to him.
(24:21):
And so you were like grabbinghim and getting you know.
And then he was like rubbingyour shoulders or like you know,
just like rubbing your back orsomething.
And I remember thinking, oh, Igoing to remember that for the
co-regulation episode, becauseit just he was there to like you
know, like just be with you inthat anxiety, not like trying to
.
He wasn't saying, oh, don'tworry, it's fine, he was just
(24:44):
like there with you and thenalso trying to regulate your
weight concerns yeah, weightconcerns, yeah, and you probably
regularly you know.
So those were like the low roadmoments, but then also the high
road moments.
He has been so like such theresponsible one, like taking
(25:06):
care of a kid working so hard ashe is and he doesn't have as
much like that play and therelaxing and fun that you bring
to him.
Clearly, like he said, yeah,she, she makes me do adventurous
things.
And like I would never.
She took me out like our firstdate was on horseback riding and
I was like, oh my god, why do Ido something that high risk?
(25:27):
But there we were and then myhorse got kicked in the face,
like it's just like.
I was like that's so classic,jacqueline, and she's just
bringing, like the, the joy oflife to him.
So you were regulating eachother in these, all these
different roads.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (25:40):
It's beautiful yeah, I mean, I do.
I feel like, um, the our play,the play aspect of our
relationship is amazing.
Amazing, because I do think heneeds that desperately.
He just has never given himselfpermission fully to let go and
(26:01):
play and be selfish and take amoment for himself and I'm
thinking about the vows thatI'll write, and that's a huge
part of it.
I promise to give youeverything you sacrificed in the
first 35 years of your life,because he sacrificed so much,
and I just want to.
I want to make sure, when heleaves this earth, that he
(26:22):
hasn't missed out on anything.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:27):
You cry Serious.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (26:30):
So cute , serious, so cute.
He.
I haven't met many the vastmajority of men that I hear
about or meet who, for instance,you know, got their girlfriend
pregnant when they were reallyyoung do not wind up being the
primary caretaker and he woundup being the only caretaker, um,
(26:51):
because she happened to die.
But he like wasn't pushing for,you know, abortion, he wasn't
pushing to break up, he wasn'tsaying like, okay, you have to
do everything.
Then, um, it was like hestepped up, and stepping up
comes with a lot of sacrificeand I love him and I don't want
(27:13):
his life to be one of sacrifice.
He's still got a lot left, um,but I also really he, it's not
just been one of sacrifice, it'salso been one of suppression.
He's had to suppress a lot offeelings and I'm I'm kind of
trying to help him draw thoseout a little bit more.
I, you know, sometimes I Idon't want to feel intrusive,
(27:35):
but I'm hoping that I can helpregulate him there too and be
like look like you know, your,your emotions don't have to be
so scary and we don't alwayshave to be having fun.
You know, I'm I'm most honored,I'm most happy in the
relationship when he opens up tome and talks about these things
and feels like he can do that,so, um, so yeah, and he I think
(27:58):
you know I do I like the idea ofupregulating and have that and
then and then having this likesecurity and safety with the
practicality stuff.
I think co-regulation is reallyabout, you know, attunement and
kind of like understanding theneeds of the other person in
that moment and figuring out howto meet them and validate them.
And our needs aren't alwaysabout pain.
(28:20):
Sometimes they're aboutyearning and aliveness and and
wanting more and being ready tomeet that.
But he is certainly anincredibly calming influence and
I and I also think like he'sdone a lot to just make me feel
(28:42):
like a good person.
I mean, the reason I thought Ihad to make my last relationship
work under at all costs right,was because I had like a low
belief in myself to be a goodpartner, and that was um, fueled
by how my ex talked to me, um,and and some other things.
But you know it's it's a loteasier to show up in a
(29:06):
relationship where you you feellike the other person
fundamentally thinks you're agood partner.
So I'm like, oh, okay, like I'ma, I'm a good partner.
Okay, that means that I havethe self-esteem capable of, like
, taking care of him and, um youknow, showing up for him.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great.
Like that, the natural part ofyou of being able to dive into
adventure is something that hereally needs.
He just missed out on that.
Really needs you just missedout on that.
And I mean, I I do love thatidea in EFT of what we're going
(29:40):
for, what we're actually workingtowards in a couple, which is I
like they call it co-co,co-regulation and co-creating
meaning.
So it's not this you're onlyhappy and having fun and in love
I think we've talked about inthis podcast, like what is love,
what?
is romantic love.
Is it that infatuated over themoon?
(30:03):
Oh my God, I'm chasing them,I'm wanting them and desiring
them.
That's part of it.
That's one part of it, but theother part is being I like what
you said like attunement andtuning to each other's needs,
even if it's not, quote happyand then, co-creating meaning
like we're just like comingtogether on it and and coming up
with our own shared story ofwhat that meant.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:25):
Yeah, I was going to say I think
attunement is is is attuning toeach other's needs, but also
each other's stories and, likeyou know, coming together to
co-write a story and basicallysay, like what is this future
that we're designing together?
Are we aligned there and can wemake sure that we remain
aligned?
And there's a lot of excitementin that, when there's two
(30:46):
people with enough compromiseand enough admiration for each
other, that bringing eachother's stories in is actually
an exciting prospect instead ofa combative or threatening one.
You know, like stories abouthow you want to raise your kids,
or stories about how you wantto grow old, or family
traditions, um, how you wantyour house to look.
(31:09):
I think jason and I aresometimes at odds about mostly
the superficial ones, like howdo we want the house to look
right, but ultimately it's likewhat I want my story to look
like is to have him in it and tobe loved like this forever and
to give everything I can to him,and so, like the rest being a
(31:30):
bit of a compromise is whateverI mean.
We want to raise our kids invery similar ways, and so it
seems like the important thingsare kind of ticked off, but the
rest of it is like okay, likehow am I going to change my
vision to make room for him?
Um, and that's a creativeendeavor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:50):
I'm trying to think it's so interesting that
both of us got into our currentMm hmm with them.
Like even from day one of youmeeting I remember you telling
me about him and you're like Idon't know, it just felt safe,
(32:15):
like I just felt good, it feltright to kind of you know like
go on these dates and see himmore than I probably would open
up more, have sex with him.
You know just, you felt like itfelt right and safe and it's
just interesting because I don'tknow, like I think that,
because I don't know, I thinkthat that's such an interesting.
(32:36):
And then I got in my head aboutwell, we can't really get rigid
with that, because noteverything feels safe, right.
There is parts of ourrelationships that don't feel
quote safe, like there'sincompatibilities, there's
arguments, there's points ofdifferences, where it's heated
(32:58):
topics or something like that.
So not everything feels like ohI you know, I don't have to
think about anything.
But maybe it's just like I feelsafe, being myself, being
accepted by them and knowingthat they, they, want me in that
story of their future.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (33:16):
I'm guessing, I'm just like
brainstorming out loud here.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, uh,the way I felt in past
relationships was that if I hada need that was out of sync with
my partners, that that would bethreatening to one or both of
(33:39):
us, that it would be usedagainst me, like if I, if I
couldn't express myself properly, or if I, if I, um, were angry
or something that that would be.
Just, there wouldn't be anyacceptance around that, there
wouldn't be any like desire tohelp me through that um, or to
change behavior, because it waslike we were in combat or in
(34:03):
competition or something likewho can get whose needs met more
?
who can win whose story can win.
And here I just don't.
You know if I'm, if I'm upsetwith him, I almost have to fight
the urge Sometimes.
I have to fight the urge tolike tell him, because I know if
(34:25):
I tell him he's probably goingto make happy and I don't want
him to sacrifice too much ofhimself in that.
I don't know that he'll make mehappy right away, but he has so
clearly taken my desires intoaccount.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:47):
Yeah, it's much more a feeling of making a
unit than adding one and oneright.
It's just like a reallyemerging of two, um, and instead
of like me versus you andwhether you know, and yeah,
there you go, no, I'm justthinking about like it's.
It's cool to kind of see howthe science plays out in our
(35:11):
relationships, like what we'retalking about here, of like that
unit and that shared life, um,I was reading about the social
baseline theory by jim cone, soit's.
It's.
The idea of co-regulation isinteresting because it's like it
really gives a lot of like credto we need people, we need
relationships and love, not justbecause it's nice or whatever,
(35:33):
because, like, it's a likesurvival mechanism where the
idea is like, if you have twopeople doing something together,
you're sharing the load, you'resharing the resources, you're
protecting each other.
One.
One person can sleep in thecave and the other person can
watch out.
Right, there's two people togather the food, hunt the food
and cook the resources.
You're protecting each other.
One person can sleep in thecave and the other person can
watch out.
Right, there's two people togather the food, hunt the food
and cook the food.
(35:53):
Right, you can literally sharethe load with each other.
And there's this beautiful study, I think Jim Cohn 2006.
I'll try to link it to the shownotes, but where I mean this is
a crazy study, it's like, it'sso cool.
But he had married couples layin like with the wife lie down
(36:16):
in an fmri machine and she wasjust strapped to something that
would give her an electric shock.
That's painful, and so they'relike scanning her brain while
she's waiting for the shock.
And the three differentconditions are she's alone,
she's holding a stranger's hand,or she's holding her husband's
(36:38):
hand and and it's cool, like ifyou're holding your husband, if
they're holding their husband'shand, their anticipate
anticipation of the stress andthe shock was a lot lower and
even their stress responses werea lot lower attenuated compared
to a stranger or alone was likethe worst, I think, and it was
(37:00):
and it was moderated by theirrelationship quality.
So the more they had a trusting, loving relationship, the more
they felt like, the more itactually like reduce that stress
response.
So it like like literally takespain away.
So it's just like such abeautiful example of like
sharing, sharing the burden andsharing the stress of life to
(37:21):
make life easier.
Yeah, Sorry not to shame peoplewho are single.
I mean like it's also awesometo be alone and all of this
applies to like best friends orother people who are single.
I mean like it's also awesometo be alone and all of this
applies to like best friends orother people who are close.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:33):
So just just as a shout out for all the
single ladies out there, Well,I also don't want to suggest
that if you're not in one ofthese relationships, you're
doomed.
Like you know, the purpose ofEFT is to get to this place, and
what often happens is thatpeople might have the capacity
to co-regulate, but they haven'tlearned that shared language
yet, and so they're you know,they're you know.
(37:57):
What happens is that people,people learn certain
communication moves.
They learn to run away, to hide, to come to be combative, um to
um, to criticize, right Todefend.
But underneath that is adifferent story, one of longing
for connection and shame, andsometimes hopelessness or other
really vulnerable emotions, andlearning to share those.
(38:18):
Learning to, you know, to bevulnerable.
That allows your partner torespond to what's actually
happening, and so then they havea chance of co-regulating you.
Problem is, until there's thatsafety, it's hard to feel safe
enough to open that up, and sothat's what the EFT therapist
helps you with.
So I, you know, I wouldrecommend, just if you don't
(38:43):
feel like this is yourrelationship, to just get some
help with it, because you canlearn different moves.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:53):
I like that.
I like that.
Sometimes people think thatcouples therapy is only for when
you're on the rocks and you'reabout to break up and you need
help.
But you know, even if you'rejust noticing that you're not
really there for each otherduring the stressful moments,
you might be good at like themiddle road stuff where you know
you might be good at like themiddle road stuff where you know
you might be good at.
I would say that this is a lotof my last marriage where on
(39:16):
day-to-day levels was okay, youknow, like talking about the,
you know taking out the trash orwhatever.
You know we were day-to-daypractical stuff okay.
But like when you get to thosemore vulnerable emotions, when
you start to see that the wayyou protect yourself in those
moments actually clash and makeit worse, Right, Like if you're
(39:38):
feeling sad or hurt or shame,and then you withdraw or yell
and that risk, that protectionresponse, is actually like
rubbing up against their youknow your partner's feelings
then then there's that thatquick clash, and there are ways
to just learn how to slow downand notice what you're doing to
(39:59):
literal shields and swords.
Then what's the likelihood thatthis conversation is going to
turn into a safe andco-regulatory?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:05):
space, right?
I mean, you have to put thesethings down and come to each
other bare-chested, and that'swhat EFT helps you with.
I also really like that.
(40:25):
You just tried to tell me thatin your last relationship the
middle road stuff was okay, liketaking out the trash and doing
chores.
Yes, I did those things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:33):
So it was totally fine.
We all agreed that I should doall the day-to-day tasks and we
co-created a meeting where Kibbewas just good at taking care of
things and I was like, yeah, noproblem, I'll just stuff down
my other feelings until itbursts out in a yell.
Yeah, that worked.
Yeah, it totally worked.
Yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:54):
The middle road stuff is quite
literally just like deciding onwho takes on the menial, like
it's just making sure thatsurvival stuff is in order.
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:05):
I think it's just like who hunts and who
gathers and like who, who?
it just is the, the, the dailystuff, um, and you could see
that there's some couples whodon't connect on that, where
watching, watching some peopleco-parent, you know like
co-parenting is really where.
Or when you live together too,when you share responsibilities,
(41:26):
that's really when you becomepartners in like the job of life
and you could see people whojust snap at each other like
they might have fun with eachother, they might actually like
love each other and becomforting in those like really
tough moments.
But the day-to-day stuff, Imean one person just can't
figure out how to get the kidsto school on time and get
(41:49):
everyone dressed, and then theother one is like really upset
and you know, like flustered atthe schedule, right, like
sometimes like the that isactually my biggest concern for
my relationship.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:00):
It's not the other two, because maybe
the middle road is gonna be.
Jason is, like you know, the,the commander in chief of the
middle road and I'm a, you know,peon.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:14):
Maybe he's the captain?
Yeah, and you're going to bethe second in command.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:19):
I do not want to be the captain, that
is for sure.
Maybe with the kids, I don'tknow, but not with keeping them
alive, more like raising themand making them smart and loved
and oh, the fun stuff.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:33):
Yeah, the hard part about what do I
actually need to pack to go onthis like two hour trip part.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:42):
I'm not like there's so much stuff you
know, I think, I think I'd bewilling to take on the
disciplinarian role because Iwould get super psyche about it,
super child development.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:58):
I know you.
I'd like to say I reallyactually can't tell which one of
you are going to be thedisciplinarian.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:03):
Yeah, I think he's probably good at it.
I think once it comes topunishment, I don't want that
role, but I'm hoping that, likeco-regulating before it gets to
the need for punishment is whatI'll be good at.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, that bodes well.
I think that that is such agreat part of your relationship,
the fact that you canco-regulate and comfort each
other in times of stress, justbecause, like that was such a
key part, I should tell Alex.
It's like sometimes we we talkabout like what we need to do
better, blah, blah, blah.
(43:39):
But I think like we we gottogether and had a baby really
quickly and so sometimes ourcouple like relationship
learning is like we were bestfriends for 18 years and then
suddenly we became partners andwe we sometimes like want to
defer to the friendship, like wewant to be just like kibby and
(44:02):
greer instead of like co-parentsor like lovers.
Yeah, and I think that it'sjust I, I, I, what is?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:11):
the difference.
What is what is different tothe friendship?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:14):
Like well that's what I ask myself all the
time in couple therapy.
I'm just like, but like, how isthat different from being, like
, compatible friends?
So I don't know yet, but like,but I go yes.
So whenever they say, wow, wow,you two are great friends, but
new to the relationship, I'mlike, yeah, what?
Um, I think, because there's somany different layers of a
(44:36):
romantic relationship.
Right, like, Alex and I canlaugh together.
We have the high road, we'relaughing together, oh yeah, so
our high road and middle roadare good.
We are practically really goodtogether and have fun together.
But then and then also, what'sreally nice that I only
discovered while we had a kidwas how much that helping each
(45:00):
other through the low road ofI'm stressed out about this
parenting, like he's tantrumingand I'm tapped out, his calmness
can help calm me, which thencalms the kid.
Right, Like it's just such abiological thing that happens so
quickly where, like I've talkedabout this before like you
could escalate each other soquickly with the stress as a
(45:21):
family that if you just have oneperson who's like, all right,
let's take a breather, guys,let's all chill, then it really
can interrupt the tantrum cycle.
But when it comes to talkingabout hard things or conflict
between us, like repairing fromfights.
That's the place where we shyaway from because we don't want
it to interfere with everythingelse.
(45:42):
So we get a little like youknow, little controlling about
that, like, oh, I don't want tosay the bad thing because it
whoops up them.
We're working on it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:53):
If you think about it, friends are much
more avoidant of conflicttypically than romantic partners
and different needs anddifferent conflicts right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:02):
Him asking if it's okay to go away for a
weekend as friends is not anissue, it is an issue with us.
Because it's okay to go awayfor a weekend as friends is like
not an issue, it is an issuewith us because it's like, you
know, like yeah, so, um, yeah,it's just like can you?
It's not about whether you havefights or whether you're happy
(46:24):
or sad all the time, but it'slike can you repair, can you be
like, hey, the thing that yousaid was really hurtful, or you
know, okay, so question.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:33):
So I've heard the term co-regulation be
weaponized before, where it'slike I was really upset and I
needed my partner to co-reg,like I needed him to regulate me
, basically.
So when do we know if it'stipped into territory where you
actually need to takeresponsibility for your own
feelings and not expect yourpartner to be there for you in
(46:56):
every hard moment?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:01):
I remember that, that someone asked this in
the workshop, and now I can'tremember exactly, but I remember
coming in as an individualtherapist into emotion
regulation.
We should learn to use skillsto regulate our own emotions.
What do you mean?
I need another person to helpme regulate, like?
Isn't that dependency?
(47:21):
Yeah, and I think the name ofthe game that we always talk
about is flexibility.
And I think the name of thegame that we always talk about
is flexibility, adaptability,right, like if you are with your
partner and you just you know,go in like you're a little old
couple and you just like holdhands everywhere and calm each
(47:41):
other down, then great.
But there are situations wherethey might not always be're not,
might not always be available.
They might not always beavailable to regulate you Like.
Maybe they're stressed out too.
So you know, if you're alwayslooking for one source of
regulation, that's going to betricky.
If I only drink to calm down,if I only have Alex to calm down
(48:05):
, that's going to be a problem,because life is not always going
to be available to you.
You're going to have to findother ways to tolerate that
distress, or work with youremotions in other ways.
So I mean no.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (48:18):
I think that's definitely one piece.
If you are incapable ofregulating on your own, then
there's no amount ofco-regulation that's truly going
to be a substitute for that.
It's it's that is sort of bydefinition, putting a burden on
the other partner, um, becausethen they can't leave.
And that's actually how I feltin the past.
In that past relationship.
It's like I can't even leavethe house.
If I leave the house, he'sanxious, and then I have to
(48:40):
think about that and feel guiltyabout that and um.
But you know, I think also likethinking about how your needs
for regulation impact the otherperson.
Like if you scream and cry atyour partner and then expect him
or her to then help youregulate, is that really
appropriate?
Um, because sometimes your bestco-regulation is to be separate
(49:04):
and that's not greatco-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:07):
That's probably like couples therapy
time maybe, um, I mean, takingtimeouts is fine, but if your
truest, best form ofco-regulation is to not be in
the same room together, um, okay, so, like attachment theory and
probably social baseline theory, will also say that they talk a
lot about proximity, aboutbeing next to someone, touching
(49:31):
like the study with the women inthe shock room, like you know
it's it's about touch.
So there's a lot that isregulated through touch, maybe
because we're just such, youknow, empathetic, sensitive,
like beings that that is justlike a quick way to feel someone
else's autonomic system.
It's like does this person'shand feel calm?
(49:52):
Um, but I wonder if it's alsoco-regulation, if it's like hey,
I know that we need space rightnow and that's the thing that
calms us down.
Let's, let's go do it.
I imagine that's a type ofproximity like, not a physical
one, but like an emotional one,where it's like I know that
we're still together, eventhough that we're taking a step
(50:15):
away from each other.
What do you think?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:18):
I mean I yeah, I'm sure there's there.
There's the exception to therule that I'm thinking of, like
um Jason told me before we gottogether that sometimes he needs
to like not cool down but likerecharge his battery by being
alone and that like the bestthing I could do for him in
those moments but just to be tolet him be alone.
(50:39):
Interestingly, that's actuallynot something we've confronted,
but I think if you if both ofyou, you know have like those
sorts of batteries where you'relike okay, you know the way for
me to feel okay again is to takespace, and we both know that
and so great.
But I I guess I'm talking aboutfundamentally like if you, if,
if, when you are in conflict orsomething, or when you have
(51:00):
needs that are that are needed,you have to go away from
yourself every time in order toregulate that.
That feels like something thatneeds to be tooled with um, but
I don't know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:17):
I think there's a way to do that while
being attuned and like to becoco in that moment.
Right, like we could take spacebut still be like with each
other, like attuned, like youwould be, attuned to his needs
of taking space, and still belike loving and connected and
available and engagedemotionally, right versus like
fine, I'm leaving, I'm gettingout of here, screw you, you know
.
Like there's a way to takespace in a way that's like with
(51:40):
somebody, right versus likeshutting them out.
Yeah, and and I wonder whatit's like when co-regulation or
the need for co-regulation couldfeel like control, like I, I'm,
I could only feel calm if youdon't go out with your friends,
(52:03):
or something right like yeah, uh, when is it co-regulation?
versus like I feel calm inresponse to what you do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:10):
Yeah, when you make your feelings the
other person's responsibility,then there's a problem.
I mean ideally, like yourpartner is there to help with
your feelings, but to have totake on the full responsibility
for them by modifying their ownbehavior every time, or in
(52:31):
response or in like itimmediately.
Right, like in my formerrelationship, if he was upset,
he'd get into the fetal positionand shut his eyes and tell me
that he was imagining me havingsex with somebody else, which
wasn't happening.
And then I would have to saylike, okay, like I'm going to
sit here, rub your back.
Like, please, open your eyes,please, please.
Closing your eyes is nothelpful, right?
(52:53):
Imagining me fucking somebodyelse?
Is that helping you feel better?
No, okay, so let's open youreyes.
Okay, I won't go out, you knowit's okay.
Like we get to sit here.
I won't have friends that aremale, you know?
I mean like, that's not, that'slike pretty coercive
co-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:11):
Um, yeah, I mean this, this is real stuff.
I mean, I remember I rememberbeing there many times and one
of the first nights like it wasoutside of a bar, like you were
talking about your time at thebachelor, he was outside the bar
like, yeah, that's pretty bad.
A lot of coaxing to make himfeel better about it, yeah, yeah
yeah, I mean I.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:31):
But I, you know, originally, when I
asked the question, I wasn'teven thinking about him.
I was thinking about a femalefriend of mine who was like, see
if he had, just if my ex hadjust done this, right, like if
he had just, like, helped me.
Every single time I had anemotional response, then we
would be okay.
But the but the ex wasoverwhelmed.
And every time she had anemotional response he had an
(53:52):
equal and opposite emotionalresponse.
And as much and this is thepursuer withdrawal cycle right,
like we're back.
The pursuers like regulate me,regulate me, tell me it's going
to be okay, tell me that youwon't leave me, that's how you
can regulate me.
And the withdrawers like ah,this is putting too much on me,
I can't, I don't know what to do, I'm afraid of making a wrong
move.
I've just the best thing that'sco-regulating for me is to give
(54:14):
me space, and so it'sinterrupting that to find
balance.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's.
I think we're at it's a bothhands situation, right.
We are responsible for ourfeelings and our partners really
affect them.
It's the same thing as likemaking a decision together.
Alex and I chose to live in NewYork.
That's a hot topic.
We both had the agency to makethat choice.
(54:40):
Yeah, our choice affected eachother's.
Yeah, however, we both haveownership over that choice.
We both have ownership overthat choice, right?
So to be like that person mademe do this.
I can't feel good unless theymake me feel better.
Yeah, I mean, that's just like.
That's just really ignoring theyou of it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:00):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like,
what makes Jason and mesuccessful at this, and I, I
mean, I think one of the thingsis like I don't actually require
him to co-regulate me most ofthe time.
I've got friends, I've got thebathtub, I've got a cat, I've
got like healthy mental patternsfor the most part, except for
all the ones I've shared in thispodcast episode.
People are going to be like, oh, so I don't think I put an
(55:23):
oversized burden on him and thensame with him.
You know, he has his family,he's a compartmentalizer which I
, you know, I would actually behappy to regulate him more than
I do currently.
Um, so, yeah, so I think part ofthat is like, you know,
learning, learning your ownbasic regulation, and then your
partner is kind of the cherry ontop, um, cause you don't want
(55:44):
to become too codependent therebecause you don't, simply you
just don't want to lose your,your own ability to do it.
Um, but you know, really kindof like really taking
responsibility for your emotionsand realizing that your partner
is there to help you with it totheir, to the extent that they
can, but they are not there tobe coerced by it and ultimately,
(56:09):
this is your, you know yourresponsibility.
You're the you know, livetogether, die alone, but with
emotions, like, at the end ofthe day, your emotions is the
one is, it's what's lives in you, it lives in there and like
they can help you as much asthey can, but they're not the
one that is feeling it directly.
I don't know what tips wouldyou have.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:30):
Tips.
I mean, I think from EFT what welearned is we talked about in
the last episode.
You talked about a tempo where,if you're noticing you're not
co-regulating, you're noticingthat you are stuck in a pattern
of the pursue-withdraw or you'reconstantly feeling anxious or
trapped in your relationship orfeel like, hey, whenever
(56:50):
emotions get high it's bad.
I think the tips are slow downand notice what's going on in
moments of conflict, like reallyslow it down and use a
microscope to be like, okay,when he said this, I felt this
and then I protected myself fromthat feeling like this, right,
(57:11):
and then that protectionmechanism did this to them,
right.
Like kind of noticing youremotions and how it affected
them, yeah, and so just liketaking ownership of your piece,
but then also like I think,remembering, with co-regulation,
your energy affects someoneelse.
I mean, I really actuallylearned this in Thai massage.
(57:32):
This was the place where Ireally learned this first, and
then I learned it again as atherapist, where your stress,
your emotional state andeverything like transmits to
that person.
So sometimes it's not even whatyou say or what you do, it's
just grounding yourself andfeeling, I won't say relaxed,
(57:54):
but feeling like grounded andpresent.
And it helps that other personfeel that way too, even if
they're not aware of it.
So if the other person'sescalating and exploding, not,
you know, just like kind of gowith them, attuned to their
emotions, but also know thatyour presence and your emotional
state is going to affect them.
(58:14):
So you know like, take a momentto regulate yourself and it
will help the whole situationthen locate the interpretation
you made about what's going onand then locate the protective
action.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:30):
Then you have so much right there to
communicate to your partner andalso understanding that your
protective pieces like aren'tyour full self.
So if you behaved in a way thatyou're not proud of, like, that
doesn't have to be somethingthat has to be to take up the
whole of your character and thenfill you with shame and make
you, you know, um, react evenmore poorly in response to that.
We can I like I'm like obsessedwith internal family systems
(58:52):
right now but we can startunderstanding ourselves in terms
of different parts and be ableto say to our partner, like hey,
this, you just encountered apart of me and I'm really sorry,
and let's figure out how towork with that, but I know for
now we've got to uh call time.
So thank you all so much forlistening to me gush about my
relationship and we talk aboutromance, interpersonal stuff all
(59:14):
the time on this podcast.
So if you are interested inmore, stay tuned and please give
us a five-star rating on applepodcast or spotify if you like
us and we'll see you next week.
Provided in this podcast is doneat your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
(59:50):
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
(01:00:13):
.
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this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, the podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hello, little helpers, today isa fun one.
We are going to continue ourconversation from last week
about couples and the.
You know, the last time wetalked about, like the
(00:22):
withdrawal or sewer dynamic, butthis time we're going to talk
about how to come together, howto co-regulate each other, this
kind of ideal state for forcouples.
But we're going to start theconversation with life updates,
particularly my life updates,and talk about how my wonderful
(00:43):
fiance co-regulates with me.
Um, so yeah, Kibby, do you haveanything to say about KulaMind?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (00:54):
You just like dropped the bomb and then pass
it on to me.
Uh sure, yeah, KulaMind, um.
KulaMind, we got some excitingstuff.
So KulaMind, if you don't know,is our platform where we teach
you all the skills that we'retalking about, which is how to
manage a relationship withsomeone who has mental illness
(01:15):
or addiction or emotiondysregulation so how to take
care of yourself but alsostrategies for how to
communicate effectively andsupport them.
We are launching a group in acouple of couple weeks, in July
22nd I think and so we want youto join.
It's going to be awesome, it'sgoing to be a bunch of us, it's
going to teach all the skillsthat we talk about.
(01:37):
We're going to be reallyfriendly and really supportive
and just have a lot of fun.
So if you're interested, checkout coolmind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
And if you're not sure what thefuck I'm talking about, there's
a way to just book a call withme.
Even if you just want to chatand have like free 30-minute
therapy, like there I am, Ishouldn't have advertised that.
(01:59):
That's not official therapy,it's just, you know, assessment
and consultation.
Yeah, okay, over to you and theactual exciting updates.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:12):
What happened this weekend?
The first exciting update isthat we can remove the
disclaimer at the end of ourepisodes pretty soon because I
passed my dissertation defense,so I will no longer be directly
affiliated with Duke University,which I'm sure is a relief for
them.
Um, no, but defending thedissertation was a great
experience.
Um, everything went off withouta hitch, which was a relief.
(02:35):
Um, you know, my advisor wasreally great and like took us
all out to dinner, um, and Idon't know, it was just it's.
I feel like I was waiting forthe defense to pass before it
felt like the rest of my lifecould start and it passed.
And then the day after that,jason proposed to me.
So we're now, we're really.
(02:56):
It started life.
You're really adulting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:02):
Yay, oh, you really did.
Oh sorry, everyone, I've lostmy voice.
So this is a great time topodcast.
I'm gonna hack up every once ina while to just just regulate
you all.
You did a super, super good job.
I know that you were.
You were so anxious before andit was so funny.
(03:22):
We like couldn't find the roomthat you were presenting in.
We couldn't figure out how toconnect the computer to the
projector.
I mean, it was just like acomedy of errors coming into it.
And I remember you were textingme all sorts of questions about
stats.
You were like, oh my god, okay,why did I choose this
(03:43):
statistical?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (03:44):
plan.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (03:45):
And I was like, oh my God, you know this
and also you could just read itLike what's going on and you
were just.
But it was such a goodpresentation.
You were able to dive into thedetails and really show that you
knew so much aboutmentalization and empathy and
shame and borderline personalitydisorder, but also could make
it relatable and borderlinepersonality disorder and but
(04:07):
also can make it relatable likeyou, really like we're talking
about.
You know being able to read theroom, so to speak, and you did
a really hard study.
I mean, for someone who doesn'tlike research, you did like a
really hard dissertation, likeyou developed, you basically did
like a behavioral study ofshame online which needed to
(04:27):
validate, like a measure thatyou made up, a task that you
made up, which is hard, Iobjected, say why all these
things were not hard.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (04:36):
But, um , yeah, I'll take it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:37):
Yeah, you could do that Sure.
No but it I mean it's just itwas such a beautiful moment
because, like you really havegrown so much.
It was like so cool to watchyou from like the moment you
came into interview, to likethat moment, because you were
probably as equally terrifiedand insecure from start to
(05:00):
finish.
But just like your mastery ofthis stuff is just really really
amazing and you should bereally proud.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:07):
Well, thank you, that's very kind I
should do an episode on.
Is it actually possible to beproud of yourself, because I
find this difficult to dosometimes.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:23):
I mean yes maybe not for you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:31):
I'm fine.
I'm feeling the urge to likeimmediately discredit myself,
which I don't know why I do, andI am examining that as this
examination of this week is.
Why do I keep discreditingmyself in all sorts of ways that
then leads people to think thatI'm fully immature?
Um, so yeah, thank you.
I am proud of myself.
(05:54):
I am waiting for the momentwhen it hits like I don't know,
I keep waiting for something tolike click into place, but, um,
but yeah, you're Dr Trumbull,you know that right, you could.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:08):
You could put on your everything.
Can I or do I have?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:11):
to wait three months until I graduate.
I don't know what the rules arewith that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (06:15):
When you defend your dissertation that's
like you get, you get it.
I mean, you finished theprogram, but you, you got your,
you.
You know you passed yourdefense for your dissertation
your new instagram handle drtrombolina.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (06:31):
Dr trombolina, that's really
professional um yeah, I mean I,I feel I'm just not dreading
anything in my life now.
Um, in any you know major way.
Everything that I have to donow feels conquerable.
(06:52):
I mean I, I know that's nottechnically true for literally
the rest of my life, but like inthe near future, I mean I want
to do a separate grad schoolepisode, but, um, grad school is
just, it's not even that.
I think it's necessarily thatmuch harder than other people's
jobs.
It really might not be at all.
Um, I don't know if people havetheir opinions, but it just
(07:13):
feels like it's a constantgauntlet.
It's like, and you're evaluatedall the time.
Um, it's like these bigmilestones all the time and, um,
they were just like okay, likeonce I pass that gauntlet, then
I'll like be legit or like thatgauntlet, and then I'll finally
understand this stuff and tojust like not have that be
(07:34):
hovering over my head, exceptfor the E triple P, which feels
stupider, I don't know.
Um, it's just really nice andit was also nice to end, duke,
on a high note.
Um, you know, I always kind ofhate the school I'm in until I
end and then suddenly I'm like,ah, what a lovely, amazing place
(07:55):
.
You know, like UVA is, is justenshrined in my mind as this
like wonderful place, eventhough I didn't have that great
of a time there, um.
So you know that's kind ofhappening to Duke now, but yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:09):
I mean, I think the irony is that I mean
research is me search, right.
So it's like your shame reallymesses up your experience of
most things and it's also liketaking away.
I mean, like I I'm glad thatyou feel relieved and like that
you don't have this like swordis hanging over your head, but
(08:31):
you know, like you're so shameprone that it's just like you
can't even be like I did areally hard thing, like I can do
research now.
You know, but yeah, you, yeah,you know it's not an
intervention, we'll just leaveit and you feel like, though,
that grad school like makes thischronic humility problem for
(08:53):
women.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (08:54):
I feel like I was constantly told to be
like humble, like be, you know,like don't.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (08:59):
I don't know, I think.
I think that's unfortunately alot of industries.
I think that a lot ofcompetitive industries.
I think that's unfortunately alot of industries, I think that
a lot of competitive industries.
I find that in industry, I findthat in academia, grad school,
where it's like men are told totalk openly and not even told,
but given messages and goodfeedback If you talk openly
(09:20):
about who you are and the thingsyou are and what you believe in
right.
But for us it's like checkyourself, make sure that you're
behaving appropriately, smile,don't wear this, don't wear that
, like there's a lot of emphasison us managing ourselves to
please other people.
Yeah, that's sexism, you know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (09:39):
Yeah, I just think it was like
unbelievably present in my gradschool experience the amount of
times I was told to like, yeah,behave, check yourself, like be
more humble, be modest, tonedown.
And so then you know you havethese big milestone achievements
and it's kind of hard to thenpivot and be like yes, I'm the
best Sure.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (09:58):
I think you had a particularly hard time
because you came in with a bangLike everyone's like oh my God,
this is the girl from thebachelor, right?
So like there's a lot of likeimage of you out there and image
to shape and learn to controlin some legit ways.
Like you know, like pivotingfrom being seen on the bachelor
to pivoting to a professionaltherapist is different and it
(10:21):
takes like kind of intentionalimage management.
Yeah, however it's, it was likekind of intentional image
management.
Yeah, however it's, it was likeintense because there was a lot
of assumptions poured on youbecause of that.
So yeah.
Yeah, you had it harder in thatway.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:35):
Well, anyway, I don't want to blow our
load for the grad schoolepisode, but we can talk about
the other exciting thing wherethe little next day, literally
the next day, yes, jasonproposed to you.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:46):
Tell us about , tell us a story well.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:48):
So I mean, I obviously had an inkling
that he would propose, becauseI'd already booked the wedding
venue, so, and he had rsvp'd um,so I was pretty sure that at
some point he would propose.
Also, I designed my, designedmy own ring, um, and I knew that
he had purchased it, but Ididn't know when he was going to
(11:10):
do it, and you and him colludedto make me think that it would
be in New York.
So, uh, I was like kind of 50,50 on whether it would happen.
I was more like I was like 40,60, but anyways, dissertation
was great.
He was originally not going tocome because his son's driver's
test was that day and then, Iwould say, lightly whined about
(11:32):
that and he chose mydissertation, which you know I
hate like his son gettingscrewed over and like I think
that Kai is okay with this andlike didn't even remember that
that was when his driver testwas originally scheduled for.
But it was really nice to haveJason Cause I originally, like
(11:53):
before you changed your patient,I like thought that I was going
to have to Uber over therealone and oh my God, what a
catastrophe that would have been, given that the location did
not show up in Google maps.
Um, so you know, jason likedrove me to the dissertation and
was there for me and wecelebrated that day.
And he told me like the nextday he had some things planned
to help me relax after thedissertation.
(12:15):
It turned out he had bookedlike a spa treatment at like the
nice, really nice spa there,and then they canceled on him
two days before, which which, um, would make me ballistic if I
were him.
But anyway, so that morning,like, we went to brunch and knew
a spot, and then he was like Ididn't get you anything for
passing your defense, so I justthought I'd take you shopping,
(12:38):
which is just really funnybecause, like, if you think
about things that jacquelinewould like to do at any given
moment, shopping with somebodyelse's money is probably top of
the list.
So he took me shopping.
I didn't really find that muchI liked.
I bought a bunch of books and ajumper or a romper, that's it.
And then we were, we just hadsome time to kill before dinner.
(13:04):
We were, we just had some timeto kill before dinner, and so he
suggested going to take a walkin Duke Gardens, which, again,
like should have cued me.
Like why would we drive to adifferent town to walk around in
gardens that I've been to manytimes and then drive back to the
first town for dinner.
But we went to Duke Gardens andwe're walking around and I guess
(13:26):
at this point I should mentionto any new listeners here that I
have really bad body imageproblems and, um, normally I
kind of speak irreverently aboutthis, but I don't know if that
would go over well.
So I'll just say I gained like15 pounds in the last couple of
years, probably because I turned30 and went on Lexapro and it's
(13:47):
made me really insecure, like I.
You know I obsess about it.
I'm like compulsively makingcomments about it, um, and I
don't know how to stop.
And, um, I think I have prettystrong mental health overall,
but that is not my best area.
(14:08):
So the point is we were walkingaround and he saw a like cute
bridge and he asked to take apicture of me and I hated the
picture.
I thought I looked fat in itand so I started compulsively
like making these comments andhe sits me down on a bench and
starts saying incredibly sweetthings to me, and I thought he
(14:28):
was just trying to comfort mebecause I was saying that you
know I was ugly, et cetera.
And then, of course, he's likesaying these really sweet things
.
So I start kind of tearing upand crying a little bit.
He's like no, no, no, no, don'tstart crying, it's OK.
I'm like why You're sayingreally sweet things?
But he thought it was because Iwas upset about you know, not
(14:50):
being skinny, um, and anyways,then he started, he kind of like
launched into even more of aspeech and he used this tone of
voice that he had used tojokingly proposed to me in the
past.
So at first I was like shut thefuck up, like okay.
Then I like saw he like kind ofpaused and then I saw the like
(15:10):
imprint of the box in his pocket.
I was like, oh shit.
And then I started likesilently crying and I wish I
could bottle up his speechbecause that was my.
That was the best part of thewhole thing.
He just like said incrediblysweet things, um, I think the
gist of it was like the bestthing that ever happened to him.
(15:31):
So it's his son, obviously, um,and I've just changed his life
and I make every moment anadventure and his life has
expanded so much because of me,um, and he has just gotten to
have so many new experiences and, um, you know he's grateful for
(15:51):
that and you know he wants tocontinue that forever and you
know I love you so much, etcetera, um, so yeah.
So he proposed he did not getdown on one knee because it, uh,
because he's, first of all,he's a thousand years old, um,
and it was leg day two days agoor two days prior.
So he's like I can't, I won'tbe able to get up.
(16:11):
I'm just kidding.
He's 41 years old, um, but helikes to talk about how he's a
thousand years old because hefeels like his body is always
breaking in various ways, andmainly from workout injuries.
So, yeah, so then we just likeFaceTimed my parents and then
his mom, and it was really weirdbecause his mom was like the
(16:33):
most loving person on planetearth, um, but I think because
it was so hot and his face waslike really red, she kept being
like are you, are you okay?
I'm like Carol, of course he'sokay.
He just proposed to me, likeare you okay?
I'm like Carol, of course he'sokay.
He just proposed to me, like,why are you acting like he
should not be okay?
Right after proposing to me, um,but anyway, then we went home,
(16:57):
we got changed and then he toldme he had dinner reservations
for us and then like a hotelroom so that we didn't have to
worry about like getting home orwhatever.
We could just stick arounddowntown and like, have fun as
much as we wanted.
So then we show up at thedinner and the host is like oh,
fisher, table for 12.
I was like oh shit.
(17:18):
So then all of you guys werethere and you'd all look like
coordinated and like a friend ofmine from out of town came.
Well, you're a friend from outof town, so you came, and also
Sarah, another friend from outof town, came.
So, um, it was super lovely andwe just had dinner and stayed at
the restaurant as long as wewanted and then went to a
rooftop and then passed out inour hotel room, which was
(17:41):
probably not the purpose of thehotel room as he initially
envisioned it.
But, um, yeah, and then youknow, just continue to have fun
the next day.
That's so cute.
But I want to hear how he wasbehind the scenes, because he
told me that he ruminated at youand Rachel scenes because he
(18:07):
told me that he ruminated at youand Rachel a little bit.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:08):
It's so funny because you're one of my best
friends and I barely know himand it was like a nice time to
get to know him a little bitmore.
Like we talked around yourdissertation and um got to play
a little bit with him.
He got had anything, everythingunder control and he was just
like kind of a little anxiousabout the change of plans with
the, with the massage, and alsothe rain was going to happen I
(18:29):
probably threw a a bomb in hisanxiety where I was just like so
you're going to go to raleigh,have brunch and shopping and
then you're going to drive 30minutes to durham to take a walk
in the sweltering heat and thendrive back to Raleigh and you
don't think she's going to findout?
but thankfully, but no, I mean,he, he seemed like confident and
(18:55):
in love and he just it, liketalking to him, I talked a
little bit a lot to him abouthis relationship with you and
his past relationship historyLike well, we're waiting for
your dissertation.
And he just, I think that'sthat's.
I mean I wanted to bring thisup for this topic of
co-regulation as a couple,because there's some the thing
that stands out between you guysis like how calm you feel
(19:19):
around each other, like you areclearly each other's safe haven.
Right, there's there isn't.
Like I hate to bring up yourlast engagement, but I I think
we should actually look likelisten to our podcast from, like
from after that.
But you, you always seemed morelike anxious and tense and like
(19:41):
I got to make this work and hereyou just have this ease with
him.
And there was an ease in theway he described your
relationship and like hisgreatest concerns was like in
the future, will he have moretime with you and how can he
make that happen?
Um, yeah, and I was like areyou nervous?
He was like, no, I'm not, Ijust want to get this done, I
(20:05):
want to do this, I want to start, you know.
So it just like, it's justlovely to watch you watch, like
this weekend, of all these lifeevents, and watching you two
navigated together just likecomfortable within each other,
it was really nice.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (20:18):
Yeah, it's.
You know, my, my ex gave afabulous proposal.
It was outstanding andgrandiose and everything I
should have.
I mean, I was grateful, right.
But I think there was so muchchaos in that relationship that
last night I was like going tobed and I was just like Jason's
proposal was very simple and butI was like crying a little bit,
(20:40):
thinking about like how sweethe was and how much I know he is
kind of like fretted about notdisappointing me and, um, you
know, cause that last one waslike a hard proposal to follow
and I did not need a repeat ofthat by any means, but it was
just like really sweet, justimagining him like texting
everybody and trying to make meproud and happy, and how anxious
(21:02):
he was about that aspect ofthings that he reported to me.
So it was just like I don'tknow, it was just really sweet.
He's just like such a good.
He's such a good boy and, yeah,he's definitely my safe haven.
Um, I mean, I used to feel, youknow, I would only see him on
the weekends for like the firstyear of our relationship and I
(21:23):
used to get kind of anxious assoon as I had to leave because
it was like I'm not the most, Idon't think I'm the most anxious
person ever, but, um, you know,when you know that, like the
person who makes you feel safestin your world is going to be
absent for five days, and it'sjust like oh, um, and I would
feel that I would feel thatdifference.
(21:43):
So, yeah, um, but yeah, I mean,I hope I'm not for him as well.
Sometimes he feels like somature and so adult that I'm
like can I even be that personfor him?
But um, well, actually it'sinteresting thinking of like
sorry say that again.
(22:04):
And that probably has more to dowith my beliefs about myself
than anything.
Yeah, the shame.
There we go.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:09):
Yeah, that's, that's the next topic.
No, I mean it's.
It's really interesting tolearn more about co-regulation.
Trying to bring it back to theacademic stuff um, from
emotional emotion, emotionallyfocused therapy or emotional
focused, emotion focused therapy, eft right when I think I
(22:31):
thought of co-regulation or justregulation in general in
relationships.
I thought it was just calmingdown, right, like most of the
research is talking about howmoms and their stress levels
help calm babies down.
So if I'm calm and I'm holdingmy baby, it helps them calm down
.
So it's it's two nervoussystems regulating each other
(22:54):
and I just assume it was allabout calm down.
So it's it's two nervoussystems regulating each other
and I just assume it was allabout calming down.
Um, but actually when we learnan EFT, there's three different
roads to connection.
There's the high road, which isthe honeymoon, fun, sex, play,
right, high energy.
Then there's the middle road,like the practical things you
know, getting the day-to-daystuff done.
(23:16):
And then the low road, which isbeing vulnerable with each
other and talking about hardthings and keeping each other
safe and you know, yeah, feelingsafe and comforted during some
like unpleasant or vulnerablefeelings.
So it's really about regulatingeach other where you need to be
on each of those roads Right,like so if you're regulating up
(23:39):
right, you're like able to havefun and able to engage each
other and play and make fun andjoke and you know, like enjoy
each other, but if you need tobe in that vulnerable place,
then you regulate.
Regulate there by just likeproviding that kind of safe
haven.
So I see that in both and like,maybe for you, like I just saw
(24:00):
it all this weekend, where Iactually took a video of it so
I'm gonna show you.
But when you were waiting foryour dissertation, he was like
you were, you were so cute, youwere like hugging and kissing
him and I've never seen you thatlike openly affectionate with
someone like you just like can'tkeep your hands off.
You're like hugging and kissinghim and teasing like you're.
You like look like your body isdrawn to him.
(24:21):
And so you were like grabbinghim and getting you know.
And then he was like rubbingyour shoulders or like you know,
just like rubbing your back orsomething.
And I remember thinking, oh, Igoing to remember that for the
co-regulation episode, becauseit just he was there to like you
know, like just be with you inthat anxiety, not like trying to
.
He wasn't saying, oh, don'tworry, it's fine, he was just
(24:44):
like there with you and thenalso trying to regulate your
weight concerns yeah, weightconcerns, yeah, and you probably
regularly you know.
So those were like the low roadmoments, but then also the high
road moments.
He has been so like such theresponsible one, like taking
(25:06):
care of a kid working so hard ashe is and he doesn't have as
much like that play and therelaxing and fun that you bring
to him.
Clearly, like he said, yeah,she, she makes me do adventurous
things.
And like I would never.
She took me out like our firstdate was on horseback riding and
I was like, oh my god, why do Ido something that high risk?
(25:27):
But there we were and then myhorse got kicked in the face,
like it's just like.
I was like that's so classic,jacqueline, and she's just
bringing, like the, the joy oflife to him.
So you were regulating eachother in these, all these
different roads.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (25:40):
It's beautiful yeah, I mean, I do.
I feel like, um, the our play,the play aspect of our
relationship is amazing.
Amazing, because I do think heneeds that desperately.
He just has never given himselfpermission fully to let go and
(26:01):
play and be selfish and take amoment for himself and I'm
thinking about the vows thatI'll write, and that's a huge
part of it.
I promise to give youeverything you sacrificed in the
first 35 years of your life,because he sacrificed so much,
and I just want to.
I want to make sure, when heleaves this earth, that he
(26:22):
hasn't missed out on anything.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (26:27):
You cry Serious.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (26:30):
So cute , serious, so cute.
He.
I haven't met many the vastmajority of men that I hear
about or meet who, for instance,you know, got their girlfriend
pregnant when they were reallyyoung do not wind up being the
primary caretaker and he woundup being the only caretaker, um,
(26:51):
because she happened to die.
But he like wasn't pushing for,you know, abortion, he wasn't
pushing to break up, he wasn'tsaying like, okay, you have to
do everything.
Then, um, it was like hestepped up, and stepping up
comes with a lot of sacrificeand I love him and I don't want
(27:13):
his life to be one of sacrifice.
He's still got a lot left, um,but I also really he, it's not
just been one of sacrifice, it'salso been one of suppression.
He's had to suppress a lot offeelings and I'm I'm kind of
trying to help him draw thoseout a little bit more.
I, you know, sometimes I Idon't want to feel intrusive,
(27:35):
but I'm hoping that I can helpregulate him there too and be
like look like you know, your,your emotions don't have to be
so scary and we don't alwayshave to be having fun.
You know, I'm I'm most honored,I'm most happy in the
relationship when he opens up tome and talks about these things
and feels like he can do that,so, um, so yeah, and he I think
(27:58):
you know I do I like the idea ofupregulating and have that and
then and then having this likesecurity and safety with the
practicality stuff.
I think co-regulation is reallyabout, you know, attunement and
kind of like understanding theneeds of the other person in
that moment and figuring out howto meet them and validate them.
And our needs aren't alwaysabout pain.
(28:20):
Sometimes they're aboutyearning and aliveness and and
wanting more and being ready tomeet that.
But he is certainly anincredibly calming influence and
I and I also think like he'sdone a lot to just make me feel
(28:42):
like a good person.
I mean, the reason I thought Ihad to make my last relationship
work under at all costs right,was because I had like a low
belief in myself to be a goodpartner, and that was um, fueled
by how my ex talked to me, um,and and some other things.
But you know it's it's a loteasier to show up in a
(29:06):
relationship where you you feellike the other person
fundamentally thinks you're agood partner.
So I'm like, oh, okay, like I'ma, I'm a good partner.
Okay, that means that I havethe self-esteem capable of, like
, taking care of him and, um youknow, showing up for him.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (29:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great.
Like that, the natural part ofyou of being able to dive into
adventure is something that hereally needs.
He just missed out on that.
Really needs you just missedout on that.
And I mean, I I do love thatidea in EFT of what we're going
(29:40):
for, what we're actually workingtowards in a couple, which is I
like they call it co-co,co-regulation and co-creating
meaning.
So it's not this you're onlyhappy and having fun and in love
I think we've talked about inthis podcast, like what is love,
what?
is romantic love.
Is it that infatuated over themoon?
(30:03):
Oh my God, I'm chasing them,I'm wanting them and desiring
them.
That's part of it.
That's one part of it, but theother part is being I like what
you said like attunement andtuning to each other's needs,
even if it's not, quote happyand then, co-creating meaning
like we're just like comingtogether on it and and coming up
with our own shared story ofwhat that meant.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (30:25):
Yeah, I was going to say I think
attunement is is is attuning toeach other's needs, but also
each other's stories and, likeyou know, coming together to
co-write a story and basicallysay, like what is this future
that we're designing together?
Are we aligned there and can wemake sure that we remain
aligned?
And there's a lot of excitementin that, when there's two
(30:46):
people with enough compromiseand enough admiration for each
other, that bringing eachother's stories in is actually
an exciting prospect instead ofa combative or threatening one.
You know, like stories abouthow you want to raise your kids,
or stories about how you wantto grow old, or family
traditions, um, how you wantyour house to look.
(31:09):
I think jason and I aresometimes at odds about mostly
the superficial ones, like howdo we want the house to look
right, but ultimately it's likewhat I want my story to look
like is to have him in it and tobe loved like this forever and
to give everything I can to him,and so, like the rest being a
(31:30):
bit of a compromise is whateverI mean.
We want to raise our kids invery similar ways, and so it
seems like the important thingsare kind of ticked off, but the
rest of it is like okay, likehow am I going to change my
vision to make room for him?
Um, and that's a creativeendeavor.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (31:50):
I'm trying to think it's so interesting that
both of us got into our currentMm hmm with them.
Like even from day one of youmeeting I remember you telling
me about him and you're like Idon't know, it just felt safe,
(32:15):
like I just felt good, it feltright to kind of you know like
go on these dates and see himmore than I probably would open
up more, have sex with him.
You know just, you felt like itfelt right and safe and it's
just interesting because I don'tknow, like I think that,
because I don't know, I thinkthat that's such an interesting.
(32:36):
And then I got in my head aboutwell, we can't really get rigid
with that, because noteverything feels safe, right.
There is parts of ourrelationships that don't feel
quote safe, like there'sincompatibilities, there's
arguments, there's points ofdifferences, where it's heated
(32:58):
topics or something like that.
So not everything feels like ohI you know, I don't have to
think about anything.
But maybe it's just like I feelsafe, being myself, being
accepted by them and knowingthat they, they, want me in that
story of their future.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (33:16):
I'm guessing, I'm just like
brainstorming out loud here.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, uh,the way I felt in past
relationships was that if I hada need that was out of sync with
my partners, that that would bethreatening to one or both of
(33:39):
us, that it would be usedagainst me, like if I, if I
couldn't express myself properly, or if I, if I, um, were angry
or something that that would be.
Just, there wouldn't be anyacceptance around that, there
wouldn't be any like desire tohelp me through that um, or to
change behavior, because it waslike we were in combat or in
(34:03):
competition or something likewho can get whose needs met more
?
who can win whose story can win.
And here I just don't.
You know if I'm, if I'm upsetwith him, I almost have to fight
the urge Sometimes.
I have to fight the urge tolike tell him, because I know if
(34:25):
I tell him he's probably goingto make happy and I don't want
him to sacrifice too much ofhimself in that.
I don't know that he'll make mehappy right away, but he has so
clearly taken my desires intoaccount.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (34:47):
Yeah, it's much more a feeling of making a
unit than adding one and oneright.
It's just like a reallyemerging of two, um, and instead
of like me versus you andwhether you know, and yeah,
there you go, no, I'm justthinking about like it's.
It's cool to kind of see howthe science plays out in our
(35:11):
relationships, like what we'retalking about here, of like that
unit and that shared life, um,I was reading about the social
baseline theory by jim cone, soit's.
It's.
The idea of co-regulation isinteresting because it's like it
really gives a lot of like credto we need people, we need
relationships and love, not justbecause it's nice or whatever,
(35:33):
because, like, it's a likesurvival mechanism where the
idea is like, if you have twopeople doing something together,
you're sharing the load, you'resharing the resources, you're
protecting each other.
One.
One person can sleep in thecave and the other person can
watch out.
Right, there's two people togather the food, hunt the food
and cook the resources.
You're protecting each other.
One person can sleep in thecave and the other person can
watch out.
Right, there's two people togather the food, hunt the food
and cook the food.
(35:53):
Right, you can literally sharethe load with each other.
And there's this beautiful study, I think Jim Cohn 2006.
I'll try to link it to the shownotes, but where I mean this is
a crazy study, it's like, it'sso cool.
But he had married couples layin like with the wife lie down
(36:16):
in an fmri machine and she wasjust strapped to something that
would give her an electric shock.
That's painful, and so they'relike scanning her brain while
she's waiting for the shock.
And the three differentconditions are she's alone,
she's holding a stranger's hand,or she's holding her husband's
(36:38):
hand and and it's cool, like ifyou're holding your husband, if
they're holding their husband'shand, their anticipate
anticipation of the stress andthe shock was a lot lower and
even their stress responses werea lot lower attenuated compared
to a stranger or alone was likethe worst, I think, and it was
(37:00):
and it was moderated by theirrelationship quality.
So the more they had a trusting, loving relationship, the more
they felt like, the more itactually like reduce that stress
response.
So it like like literally takespain away.
So it's just like such abeautiful example of like
sharing, sharing the burden andsharing the stress of life to
(37:21):
make life easier.
Yeah, Sorry not to shame peoplewho are single.
I mean like it's also awesometo be alone and all of this
applies to like best friends orother people who are single.
I mean like it's also awesometo be alone and all of this
applies to like best friends orother people who are close.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:33):
So just just as a shout out for all the
single ladies out there, Well,I also don't want to suggest
that if you're not in one ofthese relationships, you're
doomed.
Like you know, the purpose ofEFT is to get to this place, and
what often happens is thatpeople might have the capacity
to co-regulate, but they haven'tlearned that shared language
yet, and so they're you know,they're you know.
(37:57):
What happens is that people,people learn certain
communication moves.
They learn to run away, to hide, to come to be combative, um to
um, to criticize, right Todefend.
But underneath that is adifferent story, one of longing
for connection and shame, andsometimes hopelessness or other
really vulnerable emotions, andlearning to share those.
(38:18):
Learning to, you know, to bevulnerable.
That allows your partner torespond to what's actually
happening, and so then they havea chance of co-regulating you.
Problem is, until there's thatsafety, it's hard to feel safe
enough to open that up, and sothat's what the EFT therapist
helps you with.
So I, you know, I wouldrecommend, just if you don't
(38:43):
feel like this is yourrelationship, to just get some
help with it, because you canlearn different moves.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:53):
I like that.
I like that.
Sometimes people think thatcouples therapy is only for when
you're on the rocks and you'reabout to break up and you need
help.
But you know, even if you'rejust noticing that you're not
really there for each otherduring the stressful moments,
you might be good at like themiddle road stuff where you know
you might be good at like themiddle road stuff where you know
you might be good at.
I would say that this is a lotof my last marriage where on
(39:16):
day-to-day levels was okay, youknow, like talking about the,
you know taking out the trash orwhatever.
You know we were day-to-daypractical stuff okay.
But like when you get to thosemore vulnerable emotions, when
you start to see that the wayyou protect yourself in those
moments actually clash and makeit worse, Right, Like if you're
(39:38):
feeling sad or hurt or shame,and then you withdraw or yell
and that risk, that protectionresponse, is actually like
rubbing up against their youknow your partner's feelings
then then there's that thatquick clash, and there are ways
to just learn how to slow downand notice what you're doing to
(39:59):
literal shields and swords.
Then what's the likelihood thatthis conversation is going to
turn into a safe andco-regulatory?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:05):
space, right?
I mean, you have to put thesethings down and come to each
other bare-chested, and that'swhat EFT helps you with.
I also really like that.
(40:25):
You just tried to tell me thatin your last relationship the
middle road stuff was okay, liketaking out the trash and doing
chores.
Yes, I did those things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:33):
So it was totally fine.
We all agreed that I should doall the day-to-day tasks and we
co-created a meeting where Kibbewas just good at taking care of
things and I was like, yeah, noproblem, I'll just stuff down
my other feelings until itbursts out in a yell.
Yeah, that worked.
Yeah, it totally worked.
Yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (40:54):
The middle road stuff is quite
literally just like deciding onwho takes on the menial, like
it's just making sure thatsurvival stuff is in order.
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (41:05):
I think it's just like who hunts and who
gathers and like who, who?
it just is the, the, the dailystuff, um, and you could see
that there's some couples whodon't connect on that, where
watching, watching some peopleco-parent, you know like
co-parenting is really where.
Or when you live together too,when you share responsibilities,
(41:26):
that's really when you becomepartners in like the job of life
and you could see people whojust snap at each other like
they might have fun with eachother, they might actually like
love each other and becomforting in those like really
tough moments.
But the day-to-day stuff, Imean one person just can't
figure out how to get the kidsto school on time and get
(41:49):
everyone dressed, and then theother one is like really upset
and you know, like flustered atthe schedule, right, like
sometimes like the that isactually my biggest concern for
my relationship.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:00):
It's not the other two, because maybe
the middle road is gonna be.
Jason is, like you know, the,the commander in chief of the
middle road and I'm a, you know,peon.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:14):
Maybe he's the captain?
Yeah, and you're going to bethe second in command.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:19):
I do not want to be the captain, that
is for sure.
Maybe with the kids, I don'tknow, but not with keeping them
alive, more like raising themand making them smart and loved
and oh, the fun stuff.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:33):
Yeah, the hard part about what do I
actually need to pack to go onthis like two hour trip part.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:42):
I'm not like there's so much stuff you
know, I think, I think I'd bewilling to take on the
disciplinarian role because Iwould get super psyche about it,
super child development.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (42:58):
I know you.
I'd like to say I reallyactually can't tell which one of
you are going to be thedisciplinarian.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (43:03):
Yeah, I think he's probably good at it.
I think once it comes topunishment, I don't want that
role, but I'm hoping that, likeco-regulating before it gets to
the need for punishment is whatI'll be good at.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, that bodes well.
I think that that is such agreat part of your relationship,
the fact that you canco-regulate and comfort each
other in times of stress, justbecause, like that was such a
key part, I should tell Alex.
It's like sometimes we we talkabout like what we need to do
better, blah, blah, blah.
(43:39):
But I think like we we gottogether and had a baby really
quickly and so sometimes ourcouple like relationship
learning is like we were bestfriends for 18 years and then
suddenly we became partners andwe we sometimes like want to
defer to the friendship, like wewant to be just like kibby and
(44:02):
greer instead of like co-parentsor like lovers.
Yeah, and I think that it'sjust I, I, I, what is?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:11):
the difference.
What is what is different tothe friendship?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (44:14):
Like well that's what I ask myself all the
time in couple therapy.
I'm just like, but like, how isthat different from being, like
, compatible friends?
So I don't know yet, but like,but I go yes.
So whenever they say, wow, wow,you two are great friends, but
new to the relationship, I'mlike, yeah, what?
Um, I think, because there's somany different layers of a
(44:36):
romantic relationship.
Right, like, Alex and I canlaugh together.
We have the high road, we'relaughing together, oh yeah, so
our high road and middle roadare good.
We are practically really goodtogether and have fun together.
But then and then also, what'sreally nice that I only
discovered while we had a kidwas how much that helping each
(45:00):
other through the low road ofI'm stressed out about this
parenting, like he's tantrumingand I'm tapped out, his calmness
can help calm me, which thencalms the kid.
Right, Like it's just such abiological thing that happens so
quickly where, like I've talkedabout this before like you
could escalate each other soquickly with the stress as a
(45:21):
family that if you just have oneperson who's like, all right,
let's take a breather, guys,let's all chill, then it really
can interrupt the tantrum cycle.
But when it comes to talkingabout hard things or conflict
between us, like repairing fromfights.
That's the place where we shyaway from because we don't want
it to interfere with everythingelse.
(45:42):
So we get a little like youknow, little controlling about
that, like, oh, I don't want tosay the bad thing because it
whoops up them.
We're working on it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:53):
If you think about it, friends are much
more avoidant of conflicttypically than romantic partners
and different needs anddifferent conflicts right.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:02):
Him asking if it's okay to go away for a
weekend as friends is not anissue, it is an issue with us.
Because it's okay to go awayfor a weekend as friends is like
not an issue, it is an issuewith us because it's like, you
know, like yeah, so, um, yeah,it's just like can you?
It's not about whether you havefights or whether you're happy
(46:24):
or sad all the time, but it'slike can you repair, can you be
like, hey, the thing that yousaid was really hurtful, or you
know, okay, so question.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:33):
So I've heard the term co-regulation be
weaponized before, where it'slike I was really upset and I
needed my partner to co-reg,like I needed him to regulate me
, basically.
So when do we know if it'stipped into territory where you
actually need to takeresponsibility for your own
feelings and not expect yourpartner to be there for you in
(46:56):
every hard moment?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:01):
I remember that, that someone asked this in
the workshop, and now I can'tremember exactly, but I remember
coming in as an individualtherapist into emotion
regulation.
We should learn to use skillsto regulate our own emotions.
What do you mean?
I need another person to helpme regulate, like?
Isn't that dependency?
(47:21):
Yeah, and I think the name ofthe game that we always talk
about is flexibility.
And I think the name of thegame that we always talk about
is flexibility, adaptability,right, like if you are with your
partner and you just you know,go in like you're a little old
couple and you just like holdhands everywhere and calm each
(47:41):
other down, then great.
But there are situations wherethey might not always be're not,
might not always be available.
They might not always beavailable to regulate you Like.
Maybe they're stressed out too.
So you know, if you're alwayslooking for one source of
regulation, that's going to betricky.
If I only drink to calm down,if I only have Alex to calm down
(48:05):
, that's going to be a problem,because life is not always going
to be available to you.
You're going to have to findother ways to tolerate that
distress, or work with youremotions in other ways.
So I mean no.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (48:18):
I think that's definitely one piece.
If you are incapable ofregulating on your own, then
there's no amount ofco-regulation that's truly going
to be a substitute for that.
It's it's that is sort of bydefinition, putting a burden on
the other partner, um, becausethen they can't leave.
And that's actually how I feltin the past.
In that past relationship.
It's like I can't even leavethe house.
If I leave the house, he'sanxious, and then I have to
(48:40):
think about that and feel guiltyabout that and um.
But you know, I think also likethinking about how your needs
for regulation impact the otherperson.
Like if you scream and cry atyour partner and then expect him
or her to then help youregulate, is that really
appropriate?
Um, because sometimes your bestco-regulation is to be separate
(49:04):
and that's not greatco-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (49:07):
That's probably like couples therapy
time maybe, um, I mean, takingtimeouts is fine, but if your
truest, best form ofco-regulation is to not be in
the same room together, um, okay, so, like attachment theory and
probably social baseline theory, will also say that they talk a
lot about proximity, aboutbeing next to someone, touching
(49:31):
like the study with the women inthe shock room, like you know
it's it's about touch.
So there's a lot that isregulated through touch, maybe
because we're just such, youknow, empathetic, sensitive,
like beings that that is justlike a quick way to feel someone
else's autonomic system.
It's like does this person'shand feel calm?
(49:52):
Um, but I wonder if it's alsoco-regulation, if it's like hey,
I know that we need space rightnow and that's the thing that
calms us down.
Let's, let's go do it.
I imagine that's a type ofproximity like, not a physical
one, but like an emotional one,where it's like I know that
we're still together, eventhough that we're taking a step
(50:15):
away from each other.
What do you think?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:18):
I mean I yeah, I'm sure there's there.
There's the exception to therule that I'm thinking of, like
um Jason told me before we gottogether that sometimes he needs
to like not cool down but likerecharge his battery by being
alone and that like the bestthing I could do for him in
those moments but just to be tolet him be alone.
(50:39):
Interestingly, that's actuallynot something we've confronted,
but I think if you if both ofyou, you know have like those
sorts of batteries where you'relike okay, you know the way for
me to feel okay again is to takespace, and we both know that
and so great.
But I I guess I'm talking aboutfundamentally like if you, if,
if, when you are in conflict orsomething, or when you have
(51:00):
needs that are that are needed,you have to go away from
yourself every time in order toregulate that.
That feels like something thatneeds to be tooled with um, but
I don't know.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:17):
I think there's a way to do that while
being attuned and like to becoco in that moment.
Right, like we could take spacebut still be like with each
other, like attuned, like youwould be, attuned to his needs
of taking space, and still belike loving and connected and
available and engagedemotionally, right versus like
fine, I'm leaving, I'm gettingout of here, screw you, you know
.
Like there's a way to takespace in a way that's like with
(51:40):
somebody, right versus likeshutting them out.
Yeah, and and I wonder whatit's like when co-regulation or
the need for co-regulation couldfeel like control, like I, I'm,
I could only feel calm if youdon't go out with your friends,
(52:03):
or something right like yeah, uh, when is it co-regulation?
versus like I feel calm inresponse to what you do.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (52:10):
Yeah, when you make your feelings the
other person's responsibility,then there's a problem.
I mean ideally, like yourpartner is there to help with
your feelings, but to have totake on the full responsibility
for them by modifying their ownbehavior every time, or in
(52:31):
response or in like itimmediately.
Right, like in my formerrelationship, if he was upset,
he'd get into the fetal positionand shut his eyes and tell me
that he was imagining me havingsex with somebody else, which
wasn't happening.
And then I would have to saylike, okay, like I'm going to
sit here, rub your back.
Like, please, open your eyes,please, please.
Closing your eyes is nothelpful, right?
(52:53):
Imagining me fucking somebodyelse?
Is that helping you feel better?
No, okay, so let's open youreyes.
Okay, I won't go out, you knowit's okay.
Like we get to sit here.
I won't have friends that aremale, you know?
I mean like, that's not, that'slike pretty coercive
co-regulation.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (53:11):
Um, yeah, I mean this, this is real stuff.
I mean, I remember I rememberbeing there many times and one
of the first nights like it wasoutside of a bar, like you were
talking about your time at thebachelor, he was outside the bar
like, yeah, that's pretty bad.
A lot of coaxing to make himfeel better about it, yeah, yeah
yeah, I mean I.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:31):
But I, you know, originally, when I
asked the question, I wasn'teven thinking about him.
I was thinking about a femalefriend of mine who was like, see
if he had, just if my ex hadjust done this, right, like if
he had just, like, helped me.
Every single time I had anemotional response, then we
would be okay.
But the but the ex wasoverwhelmed.
And every time she had anemotional response he had an
(53:52):
equal and opposite emotionalresponse.
And as much and this is thepursuer withdrawal cycle right,
like we're back.
The pursuers like regulate me,regulate me, tell me it's going
to be okay, tell me that youwon't leave me, that's how you
can regulate me.
And the withdrawers like ah,this is putting too much on me,
I can't, I don't know what to do, I'm afraid of making a wrong
move.
I've just the best thing that'sco-regulating for me is to give
(54:14):
me space, and so it'sinterrupting that to find
balance.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (54:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's.
I think we're at it's a bothhands situation, right.
We are responsible for ourfeelings and our partners really
affect them.
It's the same thing as likemaking a decision together.
Alex and I chose to live in NewYork.
That's a hot topic.
We both had the agency to makethat choice.
(54:40):
Yeah, our choice affected eachother's.
Yeah, however, we both haveownership over that choice.
We both have ownership overthat choice, right?
So to be like that person mademe do this.
I can't feel good unless theymake me feel better.
Yeah, I mean, that's just like.
That's just really ignoring theyou of it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (55:00):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like,
what makes Jason and mesuccessful at this, and I, I
mean, I think one of the thingsis like I don't actually require
him to co-regulate me most ofthe time.
I've got friends, I've got thebathtub, I've got a cat, I've
got like healthy mental patternsfor the most part, except for
all the ones I've shared in thispodcast episode.
People are going to be like, oh, so I don't think I put an
(55:23):
oversized burden on him and thensame with him.
You know, he has his family,he's a compartmentalizer which I
, you know, I would actually behappy to regulate him more than
I do currently.
Um, so, yeah, so I think part ofthat is like, you know,
learning, learning your ownbasic regulation, and then your
partner is kind of the cherry ontop, um, cause you don't want
(55:44):
to become too codependent therebecause you don't, simply you
just don't want to lose your,your own ability to do it.
Um, but you know, really kindof like really taking
responsibility for your emotionsand realizing that your partner
is there to help you with it totheir, to the extent that they
can, but they are not there tobe coerced by it and ultimately,
(56:09):
this is your, you know yourresponsibility.
You're the you know, livetogether, die alone, but with
emotions, like, at the end ofthe day, your emotions is the
one is, it's what's lives in you, it lives in there and like
they can help you as much asthey can, but they're not the
one that is feeling it directly.
I don't know what tips wouldyou have.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:30):
Tips.
I mean, I think from EFT what welearned is we talked about in
the last episode.
You talked about a tempo where,if you're noticing you're not
co-regulating, you're noticingthat you are stuck in a pattern
of the pursue-withdraw or you'reconstantly feeling anxious or
trapped in your relationship orfeel like, hey, whenever
(56:50):
emotions get high it's bad.
I think the tips are slow downand notice what's going on in
moments of conflict, like reallyslow it down and use a
microscope to be like, okay,when he said this, I felt this
and then I protected myself fromthat feeling like this, right,
(57:11):
and then that protectionmechanism did this to them,
right.
Like kind of noticing youremotions and how it affected
them, yeah, and so just liketaking ownership of your piece,
but then also like I think,remembering, with co-regulation,
your energy affects someoneelse.
I mean, I really actuallylearned this in Thai massage.
(57:32):
This was the place where Ireally learned this first, and
then I learned it again as atherapist, where your stress,
your emotional state andeverything like transmits to
that person.
So sometimes it's not even whatyou say or what you do, it's
just grounding yourself andfeeling, I won't say relaxed,
(57:54):
but feeling like grounded andpresent.
And it helps that other personfeel that way too, even if
they're not aware of it.
So if the other person'sescalating and exploding, not,
you know, just like kind of gowith them, attuned to their
emotions, but also know thatyour presence and your emotional
state is going to affect them.
(58:14):
So you know like, take a momentto regulate yourself and it
will help the whole situationthen locate the interpretation
you made about what's going onand then locate the protective
action.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:30):
Then you have so much right there to
communicate to your partner andalso understanding that your
protective pieces like aren'tyour full self.
So if you behaved in a way thatyou're not proud of, like, that
doesn't have to be somethingthat has to be to take up the
whole of your character and thenfill you with shame and make
you, you know, um, react evenmore poorly in response to that.
We can I like I'm like obsessedwith internal family systems
(58:52):
right now but we can startunderstanding ourselves in terms
of different parts and be ableto say to our partner, like hey,
this, you just encountered apart of me and I'm really sorry,
and let's figure out how towork with that, but I know for
now we've got to uh call time.
So thank you all so much forlistening to me gush about my
relationship and we talk aboutromance, interpersonal stuff all
(59:14):
the time on this podcast.
So if you are interested inmore, stay tuned and please give
us a five-star rating on applepodcast or spotify if you like
us and we'll see you next week.
Provided in this podcast is doneat your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
(59:50):
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment, and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
(01:00:13):
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
any information, product,process, service or organization
presented or mentioned in thispodcast, and information from
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
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