Transforming Defensiveness: From Conflict to Connection in Relationships

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If defending yourself is important for protecting your self-respect in relationships, then why is "defensiveness" so bad? In this episode, we discuss "acceptable" and "not acceptable" defensiveness and cover strategies to transform those knee-jerk defensive reactions into opportunities for growth and connection. We talk about how to navigate the tricky terrain of criticism—whether it involves character slights or behavior-focused feedback. 

We peel back the layers of defensiveness, from professional settings to the nuanced dynamics within friendships and romantic relationships. Societal issues like microaggressions play into our defensive behaviors, while empathy and understanding can bridge gaps in communication. We highlight the importance of avoiding character attacks and fostering a more open dialogue.

We share tips for handling emotional conflicts, the impact of rejection sensitivity, and how varying defense mechanisms—from primitive to mature—can either hinder or heal our interactions. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey, little helpers, today wehave a topic that is probably
relevant to a lot of differentpeople.
The topic is defensiveness.
In this topic, kibbe will helpme explore my own defensiveness

(00:24):
and figure out whether I amtruly defensive, how I can
improve and what we do like whenwe do feel like we need to
defend ourselves but don't wantto be called defensive.
So this was inspired by aconflict I had with a friend.
I'm not going to get into theconflict, but just thinking

(00:47):
through my kind of emotionalresponses to it and how I
actually responded in certainways I think might work as an
illustration of the kind ofcomplexities of defensiveness
and how we get to more of like ahealthy defending of ourselves
versus defensiveness.
Kb, do you have a definitionfor us?

(01:10):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
No, this is the kind of term that has been thrown
around.
It's one of those social mediaNow that I'm trying to get on
this social media train everyonefollow Kula Mind
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D at Instagram.
That you know.
You see defensivenesseverywhere.
Right, Defensiveness is bad,but defending yourself and

(01:39):
asserting yourself is good.
So when are you actuallydefending yourself appropriately
in healthy ways that socialmedia is going to like, and what
are the bad ways?
I guess the definition, theworking definition we could go
with, is when defensiveness isbad.
It basically means that I thinkpeople are referring to when

(02:01):
you are not takingaccountability, when you're
completely denying that you hadany fault, or completely
dismissing or invalidating theother person's perspective, or
not responding in ways that are,I don't know, healthy or
constructive, right, Like when Ithink of defensive, I think of

(02:22):
like you know your hackles goingup and you're just pushing
everything away.
Right, you're just, you're justjustifying a way that other
person, you're just likecompletely arguing against what
that person is saying and sayingyou're wrong, um, whereas
defending yourself.
That almost feels a little bitlike offensive.
Like a little bit likeoffensive.

(02:48):
Like, hey, you hurt my feelingsand this is what you know.
I'm pointing that out, I'mpointing that out so I can
protect myself from your attacks.
So what happens if you aregetting defensive and defending
yourself against attacksInteresting?
I did not have a good, cleardefinition.
But defensiveness bad,defending good.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Well, I think what's tough is when somebody comes at
me with criticism or accusationand wants me to fully just
accept what they're saying,apologize and acknowledge their
feelings, and I feel like theaccusation wasn't fair or missed

(03:28):
, misinterpreted me in some way,um, or didn't account for
certain things, or was said in amean way or something.
You know something like that,like it would hurt you yeah, and
it's because I used to becaught.
I used to be told you alwayshave to be right.
I used to be called defensiveand I was like I've never, I'm
not going to be defensive.
I'm really hard at this.
I'm never like I'm not going toreact.

(03:49):
They're wrong.
I'm not defensive well, no, Itried to acknowledge what they
were saying and shift mybehavior.
Um and it.
I did succeed to the pointwhere, like Zach, my advisor
will frequently say, like thankyou for your open, non-defensive
response.
And then even anothersupervisor of mine at Duke she

(04:12):
even sent me and she likecriticized me, and then she sent
me an email the next day beinglike thank you for how
non-defensive you were and, likeyou know, open to feedback.
So, like I've succeeded in someareas, what did that look?

Speaker 3 (04:28):
like and what, what?
What did you?
How did you respond?
In a way that was non-defensive.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Okay.
So I'll give you the othersupervisor example.
I I turned in a report for apotential egg donor, I think,
and she said that she gave me apretty harsh criticism.
It wasn't like mean, but it wassomething like Only Like this

(05:04):
is worse than like 90% ofreports.
I see something like that.
Like it was rough, uh, and I Idid have a bit of a defense, but
I said it very meekly.
I was a meek with supervisors,but I was just like, oh, okay,
like how, how should I have doneit?

(05:25):
And like, okay, I was asking alot of questions clarifying what
she would want.
Part of that was like the morequestions I can ask, the more I
can regulate the tears that arehappening internally.
Um, but yeah, I wound up beinglike, you know, sounding very
curious and like not, you know,not protecting myself.
I did get to explain like thereport writing I've done in the

(05:51):
past has actually specificallynot wanted.
She wanted like a lot of detailand the report I'd been trained
to actually write them verylike concise, like without a lot
of detail.
Um, so that was me likeclarifying things.
So that was me like clarifyingthings.
But yeah, I mean, with friendsthere's a more equal
relationship and so I'm lesslikely to just be like okay, yes

(06:16):
, I see Like I might be like,yeah, I hear you Like how would
you like this done and could yousay it in a nicer way?
Or I just want to say like I'vein the past, you know, done
things.
I've been asked to do thingsdifferently, I don't know.
So I feel like I succeed verywell in being non defensive

(06:38):
sometimes.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Can you give an example of a time that you've
been defensive and what was thatlike for you or what was going
on?

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay.
So KB and I were talking aboutthis like before this episode,
so we clarified that, like whenI'm criticized, I feel instant
bad shame, like it is just it.
It like instantly spreads overmy body.
Um, I feel like constrict, likemy breath is constricted, like

(07:13):
I immediately I can tear up Umand sometimes that can move into
anger.
But I try to be really mindfulof that Um, try to be really
mindful of that Um.
But I think in response to Imean it depends like sometimes,
because I'm trying not to bedefensive, I will just sort of

(07:35):
have a really neutral face andjust get kind of awkward Um.
Other times, if I feel likethere's an accusation embedded
in it or there's a there's amisconception about me embedded
in it, I will try to clarify.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
But I I I feel like I do apologize and try to
acknowledge what they said first, but then be like okay, but
also here are these other things, yeah, and I could see the
elements of what you'redescribing.
I mean, I kind of know thedetails of it a little bit more,

(08:20):
so I think it's a little bitmore nebulous, I guess.
But when someone is defensivein the bad way it's, it is from
that reactive emotion of likeanger and shame.
It's a little bit more likeit's a little bit more like an
emotional block.
Right, it's just like.

(08:40):
No, I'm just arguing againstwhat you're saying and in ways
that might be like completelydenying that other person's
point of view and also maybesometimes to hurt them back.
Right, like, maybedefensiveness just has a
connotation that you're justlike like jabbing back without

(09:02):
actually taking in with theother person or moving into a
constructive like oh, I'll dobetter, I'm sorry, like
apologizing and takingaccountability.
I think that's tough when Ithink what you're, what you're
pointing out, is that when youeither perceived or actually get
this, if someone has, like ashaming aspect to it or like, uh

(09:27):
, this is a thing about youwhich you and I have had before,
right, like I've snapped atsomething that you did, but it
included some like characterlevel attacks, right, like
subtly or whatever.
And then then your defenses goup and you get defensive which
is like but wait, here is why Idid that wait, you know right um

(09:50):
, instead of you shifting tolike oh, I'm so sorry, what's
going on with you?
you're like wait, I'm not thisthing that you're accusing me of
.
Here are examples of how I'mnot this thing that you're
accusing me of right.
So I think you're right that,like character level criticism
versus criticism of yourbehavior would lead to a

(10:11):
defensiveness versus like adefending position for anybody,
not just you.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
I guess I don't think that's the wrong approach
either like if you're getting acharacter attack, then it's kind
of like okay, well, how dareyou affect, you know, attack my
character and like I must, youknow, I must now defend myself
because it's hard.
It's hard.
I think the dilemma is if youare told something about
yourself, like if yourintentions are described to you,

(10:39):
for instance, I mean this iswhy we say in dear man, do not
tell them what their intentionswere like, do not make
assumptions about why they did athing, or you know who they are
, whatever, then that person islike, well, fuck that.
I mean I'm not gonna let thatright because you can't, you
can't accept it, because inaccepting it you would accept a
character attack.

(10:59):
Um, and that's not somethingyou want to move forward in your
relationship with.
You know, like you don't wantto create an understanding that,
um, like ADHD examples likethat you've kind of like been
upset with me about.
If you make a character I'mmaking this up If you make a
character attack and you saysomething like you're just such
a thoughtless person, you knowlike you don't care about me at

(11:22):
all, um, but I it was just likedistractible or something that I
don't want to move forward withthe, with the agreed upon
assumption that I just don'tcare about you or that I'm a
thoughtless person, so thatfeels like something necessary
to clarify.
Um, but it's tough, becauseit's really tough when,
especially if somebody has anissue, they've been hurt and
then they bring it up in a waythat then causes hurt in the

(11:44):
other person.
It's like, well, shit, nowwe've got two problems and
neither of them are necessarilybeing addressed.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, there's a lot of talk now about how important
it is to take accountability.
If someone's coming up to youand accusing you of something or
expressing hurt or something.
It's especially when it comesto like all sorts of like levels

(12:15):
of respect and power, and youknow all the kind of things that
have been brought up recentlyin our culture about, like, if
someone's been hurt systemicallyor or you know, like
microaggressions or something,and then they bring it up to
that person, that other person'sresponse should just be like
full accountability and apologyand apologetic and any kind of

(12:39):
defensiveness around it is liketerrible, yeah, um, which does
make sense in some ways.
But I think you're right thatthe way the person there's less
attention to the way that personbrought up those hurt feelings
because there's so much languagearound that person's a toxic

(12:59):
person.
We just did this on our lastepisode Like, this person's a
toxic person, this person'sracist, this person's ignorant,
this person is inconsiderate,they're oppressive, right,
there's all these labels thatare attached to behaviors and
you know what.
It might even be true, right,the person might be toxic or

(13:21):
racist or whatever.
But then if you go to thatperson and say hey, you're
racist, you were racist you were.
You know that person is goingto have to what they're.
They're stuck between sayingyeah, I am racist or saying I I

(13:42):
am.
Oh, the thing that I said isnot what I meant.
Like I or I didn't mean to hurtyou, right.
It just leaves them in a placeof like having to just accept
that character attack.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Otherwise they're wrong.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, it's kind of a, it's kind of a neat tangent to
go into the political sphereright now because, again,
exactly, I think we're seeing ashitload of defensiveness from
people who were told you know,there's a whole bunch of people
who are rightfully hurt, butwe're going to give them
permission to make characterattacks and tell you who you are
and then tell you you're notallowed to respond.

(14:16):
Like that's just never going tofly.
And I think it's tough when yousay like that, you know another
person can't be defensive whenyour offense strategy is kind of
shit.
So that's part of it.
It's like, well, what do we do?
You know, I'm like happy toacknowledge feelings and like
adjust behavior to the extentthat I'm willing, but if there's

(14:40):
something in the offense thatdoesn't land with me in the
right way, then like I don'tknow how to address it without
then being accused ofdefensiveness.
So yeah, I mean what I?
What I tried was to clarifythings, and I think the risk of
that is that it can move youaway from the original point.

(15:02):
But I also don't know how youdon't do that.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, I mean to not go into the details of the
current situation, but like,like, let's say um, yeah, let's
say, for example, like our, wehad a conflict over um.

(15:35):
I had was freaking out aboutthe cancer diagnosis and you
were asking for help and Icouldn't be in a place where I
could help and also I couldn'ttell you why and I was super
sensitive to the my deep corefear that if I'm not like
helpful or people, or don'trespond to people right away,

(15:58):
that they're just like going toreject me and they're they're
not going to care how I feelabout that, going to reject me
and they're they're not going tocare how I feel about that.
So, like in in the moment whenwe, when we talk through it,
let's say and I'm saying this isnot a criticism, so don't have
to get defensive over- this butlike when, if I'm trying to, if

(16:21):
I'm saying, like I said, I saidsomething, I was like, oh, this
is not a not about you,essentially Like, why are you
paying attention to only likeyour feelings and it's not the
most you know important thing?
And then you got hurt andwithdrew.
And then, when we talked aboutit, if, if it was focused on, if

(16:45):
, you would naturally defendyourself, like, oh, I thought I
asked you about that, Iapproached that the way because
of this, and I thought this andblah, blah, right, um, then
that's that almost like leaves.
How do I?
I'm trying to make a succinctpoint, but there's just so many

(17:09):
layers.
Then it does take the attentionaway from my hurt feelings,
right, like.
It just kind of like says well,I acted this way because I had
all these other things going onin my head, or you were acting
this way because I had all theseother things going on in my
head, or you, you were actingthis way.

(17:29):
That right.
So it's just when you get intoa back and forth, it does draw
the attention away from theinitial hurt and anger that I
was feeling in that moment.
Right.
Appropriately so, because theway I expressed it was not
effective.
Right, but if I still but, if Iwanted you to take in something

(17:52):
that was feeling or feelinghurt, I would have to make it.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
I would have to express it in a way that was
less character attacking, yeah,I mean.
Well, for one thing, it'sdifficult to validate feelings
if I don't, if I feel like theyare based on an incorrect
presumption, you know.
So if you were saying, like I'mhurt because you didn't care
about me in that moment, thenit's hard for me not to say it's
not that I didn't care aboutyou, it's that I didn't know
this was going on with you and Ihad a totally different
perception of the situation,right.

(18:23):
So it's like it's tough becauseI don't want to validate
something that's.
I mean, your feelings are real,but they're based off of
something that is not what'sgoing on, because I don't want
you to think I don't care aboutyou, like that's not, that's not
what was happening.
And so if you're hurt that Idon't care about you, then I
need to like clarify that, likethat's not what happened.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
You know what, like that's not what happened.
You know what I think?

(19:05):
Like a super masterful movethat would have something that
probably I was like through,like the pain that led to me
lashing out at you, for you toalmost prioritize that over how
shitty I was in that moment yeah, which is unreasonable.
For example, like I was like ina deep state of panic and I
said mean things and like asuper non-defensive response

(19:25):
would have been like gosh.
Like you're right, the the thingthat you said to hurt my
feelings like pales incomparison yeah right and almost
like that would make me hopeful, that it's almost more like
immature on my part, that theway I express that pain would be

(19:51):
overlooked, considering thegravity of the pain and the
severity of the pain.
Yeah, does that make sense?
Like like me lashing out andbeing shitty around the time
that I have cancer, like shouldget a pass for me, right, and
you and my friends should belike oh well, she didn't, she
was a terrible friend or sheacted all these terrible ways,

(20:11):
but, like you know, given whatshe was going through, it makes
sense, right that that?
What does it say aboutdefensiveness?

Speaker 1 (20:18):
I don't know, they're just going into my feelings now
, but I'm not noticing any shamein myself, but I'm already
noticing like, but I thoughtthat that is what I eventually
did, but then I think more.
So I'm already noticing thisurge to like, clarify or like,
because, in a way, like you'renot wrong, like yeah, I mean
cancer did trump, that, it didexplain everything, um and.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
But it is hard when also it's it's just hard to be a
punching bag and figure outlike okay, like, how do I like
deal with the person and likeyeah, it's a person punching me
yeah, no, and that's ultimatelywhy we resolved it, because I
feel like we did talk about likethat, that conflict, in that
moment, but then I did feel likeyou were like showed up as my

(21:07):
friend.
You know past that, that pointright.
So yeah I think, if I think ifyour focus stayed on that, then
that would have been like man,she's just so defensive that,
like me, lashing out during atime of need, like you like,
would collapse into that shameand only thought about that.

(21:29):
That would have been tough,because then then it's then,
when someone is really reallydefensive and really rejection
sensitive and sensitive tocriticism, it makes it hard to
bring up things in a, in a, anykind of concern with that person
, because then you're like I,you almost kind of treat them

(21:51):
like fragile, right.
You're like or walkingeggshells around them trying not
to upset them, which kind of,because if you upset them then
they either lash out or withdrawand then you lose the
relationship.
So sometimes when people arereally rejecting, sensitive, you
end up being like almostcoddling their like, protecting
their ego in a way that doesn'tfeel like an equitable

(22:14):
relationship.
So I think that's the toughpart about defensiveness is like
it does almost change the powerbalance, right, for sure, it
does almost change the powerbalance right.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Mm-hmm for sure.
Yeah, this is just the dilemmaI'm left with.
You know, I, if I do experiencelike really quick and intense
shame, then I feel like my onlychoice is to internally regulate
.
That that takes time and duringthat time I tend to shut down a

(22:55):
little bit and I'm trying tomaintain presence.
But it's difficult to do thatperfectly while regulating.
Like it's difficult to leaninto like with the supervisor.
You know I lean in likecuriosity.
Technically I wouldn't say thatI was necessarily feeling very
curious.
I just, like you know, tryingto behaviorally be curious, um,

(23:19):
but I think you know, when, likefriends bring up something,
what they might get is like megetting kind of quiet and
awkward because I'm trying to,like you know, trying to
regulate and they are pick up onthat and understand that my
feelings are hurt and they'renot going to bring things up.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
But I don't know what to do differently because I
can't just I'll automaticallylike make that emotion just
disappear I think that thedefensive if you had a defensive
reaction that had problems with, I would be afraid that if I
bring anything up that it wouldreally threaten the relationship
.
I think that's where unhealthydefensiveness is a thing where

(23:55):
it's like it's emotional, it'sreactive.
It it's so emotionally reactivethat it blocks the reality of
the situation, right like umsomeone going, oh god, it's all
my fault, fine, I'm the worst.
That that that emotionalreaction is like ironically

(24:19):
defend, like it looks vulnerable, but it defends against any
kind of yeah change any kind oflike you know what?
I'm so sorry I did this thing.
It was crappy, I'll do betternext time, right?
That's like the accountabilitythat people are looking for, but
that's more of a guilt place.
That's more of like I'm feelingguilt and I'm going to

(24:43):
apologize and rectify.
When someone feels shame,there's really nothing you can
do except for being like, okay,I'll hide and I'll leave and or
stop being myself, right?
So I think the guilt shamelevel is is what makes a
difference.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I think one thing that makes it tough for me
is like we know that anger is asecondary emotion to shame, and
so I'll often get mad ataccusations or something or
criticism, and then I have to belike I have to get real honest
with myself and say is thisshame or is this justified anger

(25:19):
?
Um, and that can take a whiletoo, because and and but
sometimes that can.
Sometimes I think it isjustified anger, but I tell
myself it's shame and I'm notallowed to get angry, and so
then I'm, then I don't defendmyself in healthy ways.
It's just such a rat's nestLike if someone brings up a

(25:46):
criticism, if they don't do thatwell, then defensiveness is
probably going to come.
But they can't always do itperfectly.
Their feelings are hurt too,and it's a complicated thing to
come at somebody and criticizethem and that's a scary thing.
And so how do we navigate thisthing where, like the person
receiving the criticism, thecriticism is like well, that was

(26:08):
an ineffective way to come atme, like I don't feel, like I
can ignore that.
Um, I guess my strategy hasusually been to like validate
and apologize, but then alsoaddress all the other stuff, and
that doesn't seem to be welcomeall the time.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
Mm-hmm, I think my mind is still stuck on the
shame-guilt difference, becausethis is not about you.
I'm just now just kind ofpuzzling over this If I'm at a
place where I feel like, where Ijump out and say like a
character attack.
Yeah.

(26:51):
Right, like I did with you, Ithat is a product of bottling
something up or or assuming thatthat behavior is part of their
character.
Right, it's not just like if,if someone does something that
pisses me off and I'm just like,oh, you did this thing that

(27:11):
hurt me, but if I'm just likethis has been happening over and
over again, I feel powerless tochange it, or they or I.
I assume that person's notwilling or not going to change
it.
Now, here I am.
Here's my anger about it.
You do this thing and you arethis thing.
Right, that's, it's beyond likeyou did something.

(27:31):
Hurt me is that you've hurt melike this so many times that I
feel like this is just who youare now and then that other
person has to just like, thensomehow take that character
attack and do something with it.
That's healthy, you know.
So it just it leaves.
What is the solution?

(27:52):
The solution is to talk earlierabout this stuff, which that
was like.
The conclusion of ourconversation was like next time
something comes up like, say itbecause I don't know you need
help, until you're like at abreaking point right right,
because when I'm at my breakingpoint, I've gotten in my head
that, like no one cares and noone's going to help me and I'm

(28:12):
totally alone and no one gives ashit about me.
Right, I've gotten to likecharacter level everyone and
everything doomsday.
Right, instead of like earlieron, like this distinct thing
that happened hurt my feelings.
Can you do something differentnext time?
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean we're almost in the modenow of like how do you go, how
do you offense, instead of howdo you defense?

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah, I think part of it is like you know, it's
really the other person's faultif you're defensive.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
That's what we're saying yeah I mean like people
are gonna get defensiveness inthe face of, like healthy
offensives too.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Um, we got that what do you think that in this, in
this current conflict, that youwere feeling that, in this, in
this current conflict, that youwere feeling like do you feel
like a character, characterattack in there?
Is that because right now, Ithink what we're kind of
stumbling on is this hypothesisor like this kind of

(29:18):
conceptualization, thatdefensiveness is going to come
up when you feel like shamed,right and like with a character
attack and so you naturally feellike this shame, anger response
no, I would feel a shameresponse too in a situation
where I would be more, it wouldbe more appropriate to feel
guilty, like people can bring upa legitimate thing in a nice

(29:38):
way, and I might still feelashamed.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
I just I hope I mean, yeah, I don't think that I
insult back or I really don'tlike hurting people's feelings,
so I'm not likely to say, likeyou said this to me, now I'm
going to be a bitch, now I'mgoing to try to make you feel
bad.
Um, so my defensiveness is muchmore like uh, I don't agree
with the premises and so I'mgoing to clarify and that and

(30:03):
then that can distract away from, like, validating the initial
point and then the other way itcan come up is just me not like
me attempting to regulate to thepoint where I kind of shut down
and then again that otherperson doesn't feel validated.
They feel like they now have totake care of me, but I think

(30:30):
you know a lot of people will.
They cannot.
They cannot take the fact thatsomething is wrong with them or
that they are perceived to havedone something wrong, and so
they will find a way toannihilate the person making
them feel that way, and that'strue toxic defensiveness, you
know, distracting with a wholebunch of other things.
Um, I, you know, but I Icertainly like when I feel as if
somebody else has perceivedthat I've done something wrong.

(30:51):
I don't like that feeling.
It doesn't mean that like shame, but it might mean that guilt
is justified, but that's stilltough.
Um, I don't know.
I mean it's, it's hard for meto know, because if I because I
feel like what often happens isthat maybe, even if they don't

(31:13):
say what my intentions were, Imight try to be like oh, it
wasn't my intention to do that,like my intention was this other
thing, but this happened.
And is that defensiveness or isit like trying to bring clarity
to the situation?
Um, cause, a lot of times Ifeel like I'm actually trying to
make the other person feelbetter because, as I said with
the whole, like you don't careabout me, example, I don't want
that to be the conclusion thatwe agree upon, right, I want it

(31:35):
to be like okay, like I did thiswrong thing and I'm really
sorry, but like, just so youknow it didn't come from the
place that maybe you're assumingit did Like it, I, this
happened because I was likeoverwhelmed with X, y, z or my
mind was on something else, andI think that can be frustrating
to people, because they're like,yeah, I don't really give a
shit, just don't do that again.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
Okay.
So let's say this is.
This is at risk of bringing upyour defensiveness, but, but I
mentioned it before, so I hopeit's safe territory.
But when you are focused onsomething maybe this is your
ADHD quality or like whateveryou are really focused on it,

(32:17):
right.
Like if it's a person or it's athing that you want, you're
like you.
You you have like laser beamsto it and I think that's
sometimes where you show themost enthusiasm.
But you have a lot of things itand I think that's sometimes
where you show the mostenthusiasm.
But you have a lot of things inyour life that you love, but
like that one thing will getyour laser beam attention Right.

(32:41):
And so if let's say you're laserbeaming and then it makes you
like overlook something with us,or like plans or in some other
way that you're like literallynot thinking about, like, let's
say, me or my friendship orwhatever in that moment, then
I'm going to say that maybe Iwould attack you and be like hey

(33:03):
, what you did made me feel likeyou're really inconsiderate,
you didn't consider me, youdidn't value me, I felt like
nothing to you or whatever.
Right, and then for you, youknow that you care about that
person.
You care about me, right, andyou think about me or do other
things that I might not evennotice or take for granted, that

(33:26):
you show like different kindsof care, but not in that moment
when you're really focused onsomething else, right?
So I think the tough part islike if you say, if I say hey,
when you completely ignored mein that moment, like I feel like
I don't matter to you, you'relike wait a minute, I do look at

(33:46):
all these other things I did.
Right.
But maybe that maybe it's thatneeds to also be balanced with
oh shit, I did overlook you inthat moment.
I was focused on something elseand I really love you and look
at all these other things I doto show you I care.
But yeah, in that moment Iprobably made you feel small and

(34:09):
overlooked right right, likethat kind of like adding in the
validation, um, because if it,if it's just like, no, I do care
.
What are you being crazy?
Like that kind of defensivenessand like completely ignoring
that other person's perspective,then it would be like, well,
okay, fine, then she doesn't seethat sometimes she could be

(34:31):
inconsiderate.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Does that make sense or do you feel just like totally
defensive right now?

Speaker 1 (34:37):
I don't feel defensive.
No, I'm trying to think ifthat's I'm like, is that not
what I do?
Cause that's I feel like that'swhat I try to do.
Maybe I'm not doing iteffectively.
It's so funny, by the way,because I don't experience
myself as having this laser beam, but my producer on the
Bachelor said the same thing.
He's like you're like alighthouse, whatever the light
touches as your full focus, andthen it's constantly shifting.

(34:57):
Oh, that's so interesting.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
And it's the things that that you're most secure in,
and love might not get thatlaser beam right Like yeah like
you might be talking I mean, weboth have that quality in our
friendship or both of us mightbe like obsessing or fixating on
some goal or thing that we want, but like we're talking all day
right, so that's like inherentto like clearly we're friends

(35:24):
and clearly we value each other,but we're talking about other
things.
Yeah, so that might come acrossdifferently to other people,
you know yeah, um, it isn't.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
I mean, this is I think I've heard this too is
that like, yeah, my focus goesto the thing that's not secure?
And I I often do feel like I'mI laying not whack-a-mole, but
like hug-a-mole, like with, ifyou know, like if friendships
and trouble, it's like okay, myfocus goes there, like

(35:56):
something's going on.
My focus goes there and I meanthis is all.
I have a lot of friends and I'mtrying to manage a lot of
friendships at the same time,and it's it's difficult
sometimes to hear like hey,you're not battling amina Cause
I'm like, oh, I'm kind of spreadthin.
Um, but like, okay, now thatyou bring it up, like attention.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
I just have so many friends that are taking my
attention but like it's reallytough yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
I know that came across that way.
I know that came across thatway.
No, but I think it's.
I've thought about like whathappens when I become a mother.
I mean, you must feel like youdon't have much attention to put
into like your relationships,as you did before, and if

(36:43):
there's a complaint then it'sdifficult because your attention
is really going into.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Yeah, but you get a pass being a mom, cause if you
focus everything on the kid,then people are just like, well,
yep, that makes sense, right.
But when you're dealing withfriends, you know, I think like
that might be why with your pastrelationship that was a point
of contention, because youyou'll be focusing on like a
plans with someone else and thenhe'd be like what about me, you

(37:11):
.
You didn't even think about me,because there are inherent
expectations in a relationshipthat like that person's the
laser focus yeah yeah, and Idon't know, like maybe maybe the
times when you've beencollapsing into shame, you
either like don't say anythingand don't maybe say the thing

(37:32):
that the person's actuallylooking for, which is, like I
love you so much here is mylaser focus.
Now you've got it right, likethat's what they're actually
looking for.
Um, but be getting caught inthe defending like, but wait,
you're wrong.
Here are all these other ways Icare about you ironically might

(37:54):
feel even more invalidating,which is weird, because then
you're kind of defending howmuch you care about that person.
This is a convoluted episodeand that's why we did.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
It was because being accused of defensiveness is
convoluted, because I'm kind oflike, okay, well, if you tell,
if you tell me I'm defensive,then I'm no longer allowed to
defend myself and then I feellike I can't participate in this
conversation.
But if I can't participate inthe conversation then we're not
getting anywhere and then youfeel more invalidated.
But if I can't agree with thepremises and I don't agree with
the interpretations you'remaking about my behavior,

(38:27):
supremacies, and I don't agreewith the, you know,
interpretations you're makingabout my behavior, then I can't
validate it because then I'd bevalidating something that is a
misunderstanding and so I don'tknow.
I try to find something tovalidate.
It doesn't work very well.
But I understand if I point outlike here are all the other

(38:48):
ways that I show you I care,then they're kind of like well,
shit, like I get.
I guess she's saying I didn'thave the right to bring up this
thing that I'm upset about andshe's pulling attention away
from this issue right.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
And then the person doesn't know how to handle their
feelings of hurt in that moment.
Right, right, like I.
This happens in relationshipall the time, where you might be
in a partnership and you'reshowing each other like ways of
loving each other, but ifsomeone misses the anniversary,
then it's like, oh, that reallyhurt and you don't care about me

(39:21):
.
And then if that person bringsup the well, I do this for you
and that for you, that for you,that for you then it's like, oh
okay, so I should not be upsetabout this thing that hurt my
feelings.
So I think we're just layeringon more complications to this.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Um, I know, because even with that example, I'm like
yeah, because the person on theoffense said you don't care
about me, so that person'simmediately going right I think
the issue is the characterattack right, that I think that
it's really hard for people tocome back from character attacks
and not get defensive yeah andthe.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
The only thing that they can do is say you're right,
I'm bad, I'm this crappy thingthat you said.
I will do better, you know.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
But then like I don't know what, if okay.
But what if it's even somethingsimple, like, um, jason is
caught up with work or somethingand he doesn't come home, and
I'm like I, I was really hurt bythis, you know, like I wish

(40:30):
you'd come home, yada, yada,yada.
And then his only response islike babe, I had no choice, like
I I'm not making a characterattack.
I guess he could and I, but Iam blaming him for something I'm
not.
What I'm not doing is sayingGod, I wish you were home.
I really miss you.
It just sucked.
I understand that you werestuck there, but it just sucked
for me Cause I, I just wanted tobe with you, right, which would

(40:52):
be very easy to take in versuslike, how could you not come
home?

Speaker 3 (40:57):
Um, no, I, I, I'm still sticking on the shame
versus guilt and like thebuilding up, because in that
moment, if you were, if hedidn't come home and you got
really upset, um, um, more oftenthan not that was probably a

(41:22):
series of behaviors, right?
Unless there's something reallyspecial, like you made dinner,
like a special thing and it wasreally a big deal that he missed
that one thing.
But usually people lash out andget like criticized or angry
because it's a pattern ofbehavior.
But then people on thedefensive side defend their

(41:45):
actions.
In that moment they treat thecriticism like they're dealing
with that particular behavior,whereas the other person's like
you've missed several dinners ina row.
I don't want to hear yourexcuses for why you missed it
this night, right?

(42:05):
So I think it's like it's up toboth parties kind of figure out
what the actual pain is comingfrom and to work on changing
that pattern of behaviors andnot like a, that pattern of

(42:27):
behaviors and not like a.
You are a bad, toxic person ingeneral.
But yeah, these things thathave been happening, have been
have made me feel really bad andthis was the breaking point.
This is really when I was likeat my limit right is that on the
?

Speaker 1 (42:39):
is that, though, the responsibility of the person on
offense to to explain that?
Because if all he hears is I'mmad at you cause you couldn't,
cause you didn't come home, andhe's like I couldn't come home,
then he's not going to validatethat.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Um, I mean, maybe maybe on the defensive side the
person is like take fullaccountability for that behavior
, right, which is probably.
I'm so sorry, I didn't mean tohurt you.
I didn't realize the impactthat it was going to have.
Maybe it was a misconception.

(43:15):
I care about you, but it soundslike you've been upset about
something like more than this orlet's really talk about what's
been hurting you, right Likethat's something that maybe in
this current conflict, you cando.

(43:36):
It's like it sounds like youknow there's been a lot of
feelings building up or there'sa lot of pain or feeling
undervalued or something.
And let me try to understandthat and make you see how much I
value you.
But yeah, I mean, I understandhow hard that would be if you're

(43:59):
hurt in that moment.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, I mean I think let's go concrete for a minute
to just give our listeners abreak and talk about, like some
examples of unhealthydefensiveness.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
Right, okay.
So, yeah, delving into it.
So I mean, I think thinkingabout this topic of
defensiveness and we're tryingto figure out what defensiveness
is it made me think about theold psychodynamic version of

(44:32):
conceptualization ofdefensiveness and defenses,
which has gotten really out ofstyle with common psychology,
but I think it's really cool.
So defenses, um, are differentmechanisms, like now we call
them coping, coping styles oremotion regulation strategies,

(44:53):
right, it's like what happenswhen you have a vulnerability or
something really difficult andwhat do you do about that?
How do you respond to that?
And there's two different broadcategories primitive defenses
and mature defenses.
And it kind of looks like whatyou imagine like primitive
defenses are really immature andmature is like really mature,

(45:15):
and primitive defenses are like,if you really look like emotion
dysregulation, if you feel likeyou cannot handle those
feelings or the reality of thosefeelings, and you're really
just trying to block that out asmuch as possible, you're trying
to deny that reality and thatreally looks like denial,

(45:37):
projection, acting out,regressing, getting super
aggressive, right, it's like,would you imagine a kid is like
now like it, just they do notwant that to exist, right, but
then mature defenses are likethat could still be painful,
whatever that thing is, but youchannel a sublimation channel in

(46:00):
different ways or use humor, orrationalize in healthy ways.
I really understand it.
So I think, when we're talkingabout like, what does it look
like to be defensive in ahealthy way?
I think it's a version thatlike takes in the reality, and
both realities, yours and thatother person's, takes in the

(46:23):
reality of both, of the way youfeel, and then goes from there
Right and it's able to holdthose, all those things without
having to be like no, no, no.
I must block that out because Icannot tolerate that.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm I'm leaving still pretty
much as confused as coming in,but one thing that I'm going to
try to attend to is to make surethat I am holding along with my
own.
You know, along with, like, if Ifeel like I'm being accused of
something not good, you know Ican hold that irritation and

(47:00):
need for likeifying that, butalso recognizing like this
person's feelings are hurt andthat has to be platformed as
well and so, no matter, like, ifI think it's like a you know,
unreasonable or whatever thecase is, like somebody I care
about, feelings are hurt andthat has to be addressed in some

(47:20):
way, and if I'm genuinelygiving care to that and like
priority to that, then maybedefending the parts that I don't
agree with can coexist a bitmore nicely, because I think
what happens with with baddefensiveness is that the person

(47:41):
is just unwilling to accept thefeelings that are being created
in them and they are unwillingto lose any degree of power by
submitting to the other personand their request, and so then
they will deny or lash out,refuse to take any kind of

(48:02):
accountability, turn it aroundon the other person.
Yeah, try to.
I mean, I think the Darvo thingthat we talked about in our
narcissistic abuse episode rightis like deny, don't apologize.
I don't have these lettersmemorized, but like deny, don't

(48:22):
apologize, reverse, so turn itback on them.
And I don't remember V or O,but basically the idea is like
wait for that person to dosomething that you can then pick
out and make the problem yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Darvo deny attack, reverse victim offender.
So it was basically be like novictim offender.
So it's basically be like no, Ididn't do anything wrong.
In fact, your reality and theway you remember it is wrong.
You're the bad one and now youhurt me and you're the the the

(48:54):
perpetrator of my pain.
So just like, complete like, ifsomeone goes, hey, I'm really
hurt by the thing you said, it'slike, well, now you are me and
you're the worst thing.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Right, it's just like completely will negate what
that person comes in, the firstperson who comes in here's the
problem if the offender comes inwith an the character attack,
then that's gonna happen,naturally, like yeah, I'm not an
inconsiderate person, and maybenot the attack part, but maybe

(49:26):
the reversing of like like thatthing I did to you, okay, but
this is like real bad, like I'mnot gonna, you know, let you
install me this is.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
I think that makes sense.
I mean, I think that thatemotional maturity which we'll
talk about in a future episode,it's about holding all of the
complications and the layers atthe same time.
I think we've gotten into thestate where we talk about
conflict and emotional conflictand defensiveness and criticism

(49:57):
and accountability, all thatstuff, with this underlying
assumption that one personshould have the space to have
the feelings, like there shouldbe one winner and that person's
feelings is the most importantthing and everything needs to
like collapse and recognize that.
But in reality, like I don'tagree with that.

(50:20):
But in reality, like I don'tagree with that, like I think
that if I'm legitimately hurtand I say it to you in a mean
way, then you can be sorry forthe way you hurt me and feel bad
and ashamed or guilty and beupset and angry by the way I
said it and all of like, and weshould both have space to feel

(50:47):
all those things Right.
I think it would be equallycrappy if, like I S, I said
things in a bad way and then itbecame all about how it made you
feel and then everything elsehas to fade in comparison to
that.
That would be defensiveness inan annoying way, because then
I'd just be like, well, I can'tsay anything because it'll be

(51:10):
all about her a human, and sayhow I actually feel about
anything, because it's justgoing to be all about that other
person.
So I just fade in thebackground and I'm just I'm just
a spectator, you know.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Yeah, I mean, I think the power thing is really
important here, cause I thinkyou're right that a lot of
people come in and there's likethere's going to be one winner
and it's going to be me.
Maybe the better way to goabout it is let's make sure
there are two winners.
You know, like, how do I attendto what you're bringing up?
And also, like how do I makesure that I'm not just sort of I
don't know smacked with no likebuilt, like generated

(51:56):
understanding basically aboutthese people?
I don't know, maybe that's notalways possible, but yeah, and
it may not always be possible.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
At the same time, I mean, I think it would be a a
hero's journey to have to takein a criticism and be like I'm
so sorry, let me treat you inthe way that you want, let me
attend to your feelings,validate validate.
Also, I'm really angry by the,by the accusations and the shame

(52:29):
I'm feeling right now, but hereI am, like being in touch with
your field, like you might haveto split it up.
You might have to spend onesession or one conversation
validating and then spendanother session being like and,
by the way, that was reallyhurtful the way you said it

(52:49):
Possibly no, I mean, I don'tdisagree.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
My mind immediately went to but what if you don't
agree with the premises of thecriticism?
How are you supposed to dothose in two separate sessions?
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
It's so freaking complicated um, well, because
then you're like, okay, maybeget to what it's quote really
about.
Like if you're, if you'resensing that it's not about you,
yeah, or that, if there'ssomething that's later layered
on beyond you, like that personlike, like what I was going
through right, like I was goingthrough some, like a whole host

(53:26):
of life changes.
So my tone and the way I saidthings and the way I was
reacting to you was about waymore than you right.
I just couldn't say it bad inthe moment, right, I could later
, so then that's somethingdifferent.
Then you could be like, okay,these accusations, like I don't

(53:47):
agree with the accusationsbecause it's not all about me
but, let's address like what'sgoing on with you and then later
on be like and also the way yousaid, it really hurt my
feelings how do you say that ina non-patronizing way?

Speaker 1 (54:02):
the way what like if you like, if you like, just
going back to that instance,like if you like, snap at me or
whatever, and say and considerit, etc.
How do I then say, hey, what'sthis really about without?

Speaker 3 (54:12):
it first of all, don't do it by text yeah that's
it.
That's just right for everyoneto just project all their stuff
and like the argument that wetalked about between us was on
text yeah right.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
So like we're, we're in our own heads when we text
and the resolution was over thephone and the resolution was
good.

Speaker 3 (54:33):
I thought so it's just yeah, yeah, because when
you're dealing with text likeanyone's emotional emotions,
narrow your attention anywayonto the thing that confirms
your emotion.
So your eyes are just going togo laser beam for the words that
were like you know that confirmthe way you're feeling and

(54:55):
ignore the bunch of text that isnot so.
Do it in person, where you getto get like actual tone of voice
and you could actually liketalk through and clarify
misconceptions in the moment.
How would you do that?

(55:16):
Well, I mean like so sorry, sosorry, you're feeling this way.
I didn't mean to hurt you.
And then I think, if it's like Ithink this is like validation,
like expert level validation Ifthere's any kind of like emotion
words in what that person issaying, like hone in on and

(55:42):
validate that that and thenmaybe have a, then maybe ask an
in-person conversation.
It's like it sounds like you'regoing through a really hard
time, like you know, judging byhow heated this conversation is.
I think we need to talk aboutthis in person because I think
that there's a lot going on here.
And then I think that let's sayhow I would do it as a

(56:08):
therapist versus a friend, Ithink that you would just let
that person talk about whatthey're going through and, like,
spend a few minutes just beinglike, wow, wow, I was really
taken aback by what you said.
I'm so sorry if I hurt yourfeelings, but like, are you okay

(56:28):
?
What's going on?
Has this been?
Have you been feeling this fora while?
Has there been anything elsethat that's been going on that I
don't know about?
Have I been doing somethinglike like asking, like and being
curious about their experience?
And maybe you know, you couldget a little bit more of like.
Yeah, it's been really hard forme.

(56:48):
I felt this and this and this,and then our interaction was
just like icing on the cake.
Yeah, okay.
I'm not going to tell you whatto do.
I mean, I feel like when peopleare hurt, they're hurt, and
like I think that we all justgot to get better at explaining

(57:09):
what we're really feelingwithout treating like treating
the other person like the enemyand that's really hard when
people are upset.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Yeah, I, just I, yeah .
There's just this huge dilemmaof like.
When someone is upset and thenthe the way they express it is
legitimate, like justifiablymakes you upset, then you have
to hold both, and that's just alot to do.
It is especially if you're justlike if, if you're justifiable,

(57:42):
upset actually trumps theirs.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Yeah, and you could probably say that in that moment
.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Yeah, like my ex, for instance, would be upset about
me leaving the house Right, andthen like would call me a
prostitute or something.
It's just like you know, I'mnot in a place where I can
validate him anymore.
I mean, that actually happened.
I made a joke, you know, I madea joke, and then he told me I

(58:11):
was a prostitute.
So you know, in that case it'skind of like, okay, well, you
know, now I'm upset.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
Yeah right, and then you darbo'd up.
I'm not kidding, yeah.
I mean I think that you'd belike I hear you.
I'm sorry if that hurt yourfeelings and you.
That's not okay to say to meright like I'm trying to think
about how I do it with mytwo-year-old, where he's like
tired or just is hungry orwhatever, and then he expresses

(58:43):
that by asking for his bottle ofmilk and then throwing it on
the floor, spilling iteverywhere and then getting mad
because he wants a bottle ofmilk.
And then we'll do that a coupletimes and eventually I'm like I
get that, you're upset, I'mhere for you, I want to help you
and you can't throw the bottleon the floor like that, because

(59:07):
that makes mama want to go away.
And sometimes I walk away,right, sometimes you just get
the bottle of milk and then he'sjust shot himself in the foot.
Yeah, so he has to learn to belike you know, be a sentient,
emotional human being.
But yeah, you could be both.
You could be like.
This is about setting boundaries, right, be like.

(59:27):
I understand I hurt you, I'mreally sorry about that and I
really didn't like.
Calling me a prostitute is notokay.
It's really hurtful and that'snot a way to get me to X, y, z
or to listen to you.
I need to like peace out for alittle while because I'm so mad.
Let's talk about it later.
That would be like a superheroway to do it.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Not saying that I'm capable of that, but yeah that's
what I would tell my clients todo right, right, yeah, I mean,
I guess I'm, I'm think of like,okay, if you are in a position
where you're hurt and you wantthat acknowledged, can you have
the expectation that the otherperson will just simply
acknowledge it without defendingthemselves?

(01:00:11):
I don't know, maybe there's away of expressing that hurt
that's so effective that theother person won't feel any sort
of defensiveness or feel anyneed for clarification.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
I think it's the way we talk about interpersonal
skills.
I think it's about tryingdifferent ways of communicating
it and seeing what's effective.
And if you try in arbitrarily,let's choose three different
ways and you're trying your bestto use your skills that we talk
about.
Like you use, dear man, you'revalidating, you express your

(01:00:52):
vulnerable emotion in healthyways and you try to do all the
things, things and that personstill is defensive in the
annoying way like collapses intoshame attacks.
You completely denies whatever,just like basically completely
blocks your feelings, then thenit's a losing game.

(01:01:15):
Right, then it's the defensedefenders position that you know
they're.
They're not doing their part.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Well, what about some tips for trying to not like, uh
, elicit defensiveness?
I mean first thing.
I would say don't makeassumptions about their
intentions, Don't don't tellthem who they are or why they
did the thing, because that'simmediately inviting them to
correct you.
Mm-hmm Um be I mean really dearman, but like I, you know,
stick to your own feelings,immediately inviting them to
correct you.

(01:01:43):
I mean really dear man, but,like you know, stick to your own
feelings and your ownvulnerability.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
Use I statements Say I feel like undervalued or
dismissed or hurt by somethingthat you did, focusing on the
behavior, offering ways tochange that behavior or what you
want instead.
If you are really goodexplaining your emotional state

(01:02:12):
like I know that I am goingthrough a hard time I am
probably more reactive to thingsor probably more hurt by things
than normal.
I understand all thesedifferent ways that you are good
right, like balancing.
I don't know specific.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
I mean, that's another thing.
Dear man would say too is likekeep you know, keep it very
specific, um, because if youinclude a lot of other things,
your message can get veryconfused and they don't actually
know what to validate, which isone one thing that I faced with
my conflict.
It's like I don't actually knowwhat the ask is here or what I'm
supposed to validate.
I feel like there's a lot goingon, there's a lot said and my

(01:02:53):
attention is being drawn in allthese different places, um and
the you know, and so I think Ithink being really like you know
, keeping it isolated to like asingle behavior, might be
helpful.
Now, I think, if you notice apattern, you can say I've
noticed this has happenedmultiple times.
Um, but it's going to be tough.

(01:03:16):
It's going to be tough to justsay like here are all these
various ways that you don'tvalue me.
Um, fix it, because then that'salso kind of inviting them to
say, well, here's all thesevarious ways I do value you.
So, we're talking about whetheror not I value you, or is there
a specific behavior you want meto change?

(01:03:36):
And yeah, I don't know if thatdistinction makes sense to you,
but if you get into a talk aboutlike, do you value me or don't
you value, do you care or don'tyou care, then the person's
going to say I do care.
Here's all the evidence for didyou, did you remember to see
this evidence or are you onlyseeing your own evidence?
Um, but if you, every time youknow you can say like I noticed

(01:03:57):
this, I noticed you didn't dothe dishes, I noticed we haven't
gone on a date, I noticed youdidn't call me on my birthday,
like, if you can say that, um,when it comes up and be like one
, one way that I really feelvalued is that when people call
me on my birthday, then it'slike oh, okay, I know what to do
, but if you hand them a pile ofmisdeeds, then that can feel
very overwhelming for the otherperson and they're going to look

(01:04:19):
for something to counter.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
Yeah, kind of arguments, yeah, yeah, I think
you're right, it could be one,or it could be one repeated
pattern, the same thing, maybe,like you haven't called me on my
birthday for the past threeyears, or whatever.
But if you layer on you haven'tcalled me for a birthday and
then you didn't do this and youdo that, that might be
overwhelming.
So, yeah, you're right for abirthday and then you didn't do

(01:04:42):
this and you do that, that thatmight be overwhelming.
So, yeah, you're right,focusing on a distinct thing
that they can change and dodifferently next time and
validate their perspective.
Right, Like I understand you,you know you've got a lot on
your plate, or whatever.
Now, what?
What are the tips for theperson who is the defender?

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Notice what's happening in your body.
If shame is coming up, there'sa very good chance it's going to
switch into anger and you'regoing to want to blame, and so
just kind of attend to that, youknow, and if you notice that
that's happening, it might begood to just take some time with
your response so that you canlet the shame die down a little
bit and then, like, come out,you know, from it.
So if it happens in person,just saying like I think I'm

(01:05:26):
going to be better at thisconversation in 10 minutes, um,
try to keep in mind that whatthis person is really saying is
I am hurt or something feels bad, and I'm actually making a bid
to strengthen us because they'recoming to you with a request,

(01:05:49):
right, and that request waspresumably meant to like
strengthen the relationship.
Maybe that's not always thecase, but, um, try to keep in
mind that you you want both ofyou to walk out with greater
understanding and closeness andnotice any urge to just like win
, to win the conversation.

(01:06:10):
Try to stay calm, you know like, stay reasonable.
You were telling me earlier thatI might do this, I might over
do this.
Um, maybe not in theconversations, but in other
areas.
Anyway, I'm now.
I'm just confusing the audienceagain.
Um what else?

(01:06:32):
How about?

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
this you can.
You can acknowledge the kernelof truth.
That is something that we talkabout in DBT.
A lot is take accountabilityfor what's true.
Like, even if it's a small part, you know, be like, all right,
I said that when I didn't showup that night or when I didn't

(01:06:58):
call you on your birthday.
That was really inconsiderate.
I mean, I'm sorry, yeah, yeahdidn't come to, didn't call you
on your birthday.
That was that was reallyconsiderate.
I mean, I'm sorry, yeah.
Yeah, I think apologizing forand honestly apologizing is not
a sign of weakness, I think one.
That power dynamic is likepeople might not want to
apologize because they then theymight feel like they lose the

(01:07:19):
whole battle, but you couldstill be like I'm sorry for this
thing that I did.
You're right, I will do betternext time.
And also the way you're coming,like bringing this up with me,
it's like really hurtful and Idon't feel like I'm this
terrible person that you'reaccusing me of.
So I need to take a few minutesand let's talk about that, you

(01:07:43):
know yeah yeah is that it?
yeah, I guess.
Why don't you guys tell us?
I know I kind of do want toknow.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
It's like what I just want to hear from you all about
, like what, how do you, whatare your thoughts?
Because it's so, it's soconvoluted.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Yeah, so please send us a message.
You click on the message on topof the show notes.
It says send a text.
Just send us messages of whatyou think defensiveness looks
like, what is healthy, defendingyourself versus bad
defensiveness and how people canwork on this.
Because, yeah, this is whatwe're throwing out there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
But I also just want us to know that Kibbe's original
idea was to come on here andtrigger each other so that we
would get defensive and thenhave to work that out, come on.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
I brought up a little bit about our stuff.
You what?
I brought up a little bit aboutour stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
She was like I tried to get you, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Yeah, I was like I'm just going to insult you and
let's see what happens when youfeel defensive.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Kitty's very dedicated to this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
You all are very lucky.
Or I'm just, you know,masochistic, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Just like drama, you know yeah well, I don't know,
just like drama, you know.
Yeah, well, I like drama too.
I just not when it's about me.
So, guys, don't make usdefensive and give us bad
reviews or no reviews at all.
Make us feel perfect andvaluable and cared for by giving
us a five-star rating on ApplePodcasts or Spotify.

(01:09:22):
And we love your comments too.

(01:10:35):
We'll see you next week.
You Thank you.
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