April 30, 2025 • 58 mins
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Have you ever noticed a never-ending cycle of drama amongst your family or friend group? In this episode, we talk about how the Drama Triangle might be the hidden pattern keeping your relationships stuck in painful cycles. Whether you're supporting a loved one with mental illness or navigating difficult family dynamics, this pattern will keep you trapped in the pain instead of solving it.
Stephen Karpman's Drama Triangle describes three roles that create and sustain relationship dysfunction: the Victim (feeling helpless and powerless), the Persecutor (critical and blaming), and the Rescuer (rushing to fix problems). What makes this pattern so challenging is how people shift between these roles, maintaining the pain while never actually resolving underlying issues.
We identify places where we can spot the drama triangle in our own lives—from childhood experiences with divorced parents to adult relationships—showing how these patterns created confusion and heartache. These triangles often form because we're desperately trying to maintain stability, even when that stability is painful.
The good news is that understanding these patterns gives you the power to break free. We explore practical ways to step outside your habitual role and ultimately break down the triangle entirely. Rather than seeing these behaviors as character flaws, we frame them as adaptations that once served a purpose but may now be limiting your growth and happiness.
This conversation highlights how recognizing these patterns can help you create more authentic connections with loved ones struggling with mental health challenges.
Check out KulaMind.com to learn more about our online platform designed to help you break toxic patterns and find peace while supporting someone with mental illness.
Resources:
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey, little helpers, today wehave a different topic, one that
I had actually never heard ofuntil a follower of ours
suggested it.
It's called the drama triangle,and this really kind of blends
(00:23):
in well, I think, with what wetalk about, with a lot of like
personality disorder, behaviorand interpersonal relationships.
So I'm going to kick it over toKibbe to tell us what the drama
triangle is and tell us howcool a mind can help.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, this is a really interesting topic because
it's something that I learnedin family systems therapy first.
So the idea, in the verysimplest form, is that when you
have a family or closerelationships with someone with
mental illness that'sdysfunctional, often there are
three major roles.
(00:57):
One is the victim, the personwho's hurt, the person who feels
helpless, the person who wantshelp.
You have the perpetrator, theperson who is causing the pain,
who has more power and control.
And then the third is therescuer, someone who rushes in
to fix it, to save the victimfrom the perpetrator and try to,
(01:18):
you know, fix the wholesituation, fix the whole
situation.
So, as we're talking aboutthese different roles, what
we're really talking about isgetting stuck in this toxic
dynamic of someone alwaysneeding rescuing and someone
always fixing and someone alwayslike hurting that really
maintains mental health problemsin a family and really
(01:40):
maintains like toxic dynamics.
So if you have noticed thatwhen we're describing these
roles, if you notice that thisis something that you relate to,
like you find that you'realways trying to help your loved
one who has mental illness andsometimes feeling like you're
the bad guy for it or thingslike that, then this is the
really the kind of stuff thatKula Mind is made to help you
(02:02):
with.
So, again, kula Mind is ouronline platform and community
that will walk you through allthe different strategies we talk
about for supporting a lovedone with mental illness and
really supporting yourself.
So we teach you how to breaktoxic patterns, set boundaries,
respond calmly when things gethard and to really support
(02:23):
yourself and find your own peace.
So if you're interested andit's really working with me
one-on-one and I only have a fewmore slots open, so I'm just,
you know, if you're interested,check out coolamindcom
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click onget started.
The link is also in the shownotes so you could check it out
there.
So you could just book a freecall with me and just chat about
(02:45):
what you're going through andwe can talk about how I can help
.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I think what's important about the drama
triangle to understand is thatthese roles can shift.
So you may go from being therescuer, where you know you're
always kind of trying to solvethe other person's problems,
you're always trying to changetheir behavior or, like figure
it out, but then if that persondoesn't accept your help or
(03:14):
doesn't, uh like, take youradvice, basically then you might
switch into the persecutor rolewhere it's like well, screw you
.
Then.
Like clearly all this is on you, these are all your problems, I
tried to help, I can't help.
And you know the victim can alsokind of go from like I think
the difference between thevictim and the persecutor is,
(03:35):
like the persecutor tends toblame other people for all of
their problems and they're veryharsh and kind of critical, and
the victim is likely to blamethemselves more and basically
say I'm worthless, I can't doanything right, etc.
But what can happen sometimesis that, like the victim can
(03:57):
kind of elicit help from arescuer, but you know, when that
rescuer gets fed up or whenthey're still not better than
they, can turn into thepersecutor, where they're like
nobody, nobody wants to help me,nobody cares.
You know, everyone else isterrible, yada, yada, yada.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So these roles are dynamic.
Yeah, I find that that's themost interesting part.
I love how it's weird, becausewhen our when our listener
introduced this topic to us, shegave us an article, which I'll
link in the show notes to, thattalks about how the roots of
this drama triangle it's calledCartman drama triangle is from
(04:40):
analyzing fairy tales and I waslike wait what?
And then, reading about it,it's like, oh yeah, drama starts
.
It's like the stories in fairytales.
Like the drama starts withhaving these three roles.
Right, it's like someone needshelp and then another person is,
(05:01):
you know, causing the problem,and then there's someone who's
rescuing.
Right, if you think about likeSleeping Beauty or Cinderella,
like there's always like somekind of dynamic where there's
someone that's helpless andwants something and then there's
forces that are helping themtowards it and getting in the
way.
Right, like there's the villainand then the protagonist and
(05:24):
then the hero.
Right, there's all thesedifferent kinds of roles.
And this idea of the dramatriangle was proposed by Dr
Stephen Cartman in 1968, who wasa psychiatrist, and this is
something from transactionalanalysis which I'm not familiar
with, but it's really trying tounderstand the patterns of
(05:45):
unhealthy relationships and infamily systems therapy.
They also talk abouttriangulation right Having like
three, and the common one thatis seen is like the two parents
and then a third kid or like twosiblings and a parent where the
common dynamic is like twosiblings and a parent where the
(06:08):
common dynamic is tell yourfather that I'm not talking to
him and I want him to help meout.
Well, tell your mother that I'msick of this, right.
Like putting kids in the middleor putting someone in the
middle.
And it could be really subtle,like it's not always so clear,
you know that's.
It's not as dramatic as like asleeping beauty situation, but
it's sometimes there.
There are these roles likethere's someone who's the
(06:28):
mediator in the family, right.
There's someone who's theproblem child and then there's
the other one who's like thenarcissistic, oppressive parent
who's causing all the issues,right.
So there's always like this,these subtle roles that people
fall into when thisdysfunctional dynamics, and they
do shift.
I think that's the coolest part.
It's not like you're just thevictim all the time, which I
(06:50):
think that some people do likefall into those roles more often
.
But you can change, you couldflip to the different roles.
I think that was so interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I okay, I'm not super familiar with this topic, Um,
I'm learning about it today andtherefore maybe some of my
confusion is because I don'tknow enough.
But part of this feels obvious,like, and I can't figure out
how you're supposed to get outof it.
Like it's obvious to me thatsome people are going to want to
(07:21):
help people some of the time,and it's obvious to me that some
people are going to want tohelp people some of the time.
And it's obvious to me thatsome people are going to feel
victimized some of the time.
And it's obvious to me thatsome people are going to be
critical and fed up some of thetime.
And it's like, are those rolesreally?
Or is there like, is there aproblem to that?
Like, is there any way out ofit?
Or are we just sort ofdescribing, like I don't know
(07:43):
what it's like to be a person Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
There's something that feel that I'm missing here
yeah, yeah, because this isthese are such obvious rules in
any problem like, right, someonegets hurt, someone does the
hurting and then there's someonewho fixes it.
Um, I think this is somethingthat's brought up in family
systems therapy and I also I'mjust learning about this too,
(08:08):
but I really love it's soapplicable to all the things
that we talk about when the ideais that we're not looking at
one person as the problem, orone person has an illness, but
the illness is in the system,and in a system of a family,
it's almost kind of like there'sthis structure, there's this
(08:28):
dynamic that it has to maintainitself and all of these people
play a role in it.
Right, they're kind of like acog in the machine, and
sometimes people are so like,what's most important about that
for the family is that theywant to maintain stability,
(08:49):
right, and they almost choose itover, you know, making a change
, even if it's good, becausestability keeps the family alive
and keeps it together.
So, of course, yeah, everyonegets hurt.
Yeah, there's like everyonegets hurt about it.
But this is the drama triangleis in a situation where there's
always drama and conflicthappening that doesn't get
(09:10):
resolved.
Right, it's like aself-sustaining system that is
constantly like doing its thingand when it gets dysfunctional
is that when people like switcharound and people tend to switch
these roles because this is notworking, this is not ultimately
satisfying your need, right?
It's, for example, like, as yousaid, if the rescuer really
(09:33):
wants to rescue and help and fixa person who's sick or who's
the one who's helpless, thenthey get exhausted and they they
feel hurt and they feel tiredso that because of that, they
flip into the victim like howmany times have I been in the
situation like like this is likealmost like caregiver burnout,
(09:54):
right, where you're like helping, helping, helping, helping,
helping, and then you're likethis is not working.
That person is still stayingstuck.
I'm still staying stuck, fine,I'm done that more of the
persecutor.
And well, no, you're trying tofix, you're trying to help them.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, You're trying to help them but then you get
burnt out and you say, fine, I'mdone, like this is unfixable.
But the victim would say, likeI'm there's something wrong with
me, Right?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, it depends on.
It depends on what happens,right?
And how how that person, if I'mlike, let's say, the fixer,
rescuer, I'm trying to fix, fix,fix, fix, fix, and I get so
tired of it and it isn't working.
It depends on where I want toflip to right.
That's not always clear.
I could flip to the victimwhere I'm like this is so hard
(10:37):
for me, Can't you see how hardit is for me?
I'm helpless and I'm burnt outand depressed.
Or you become the perpetrator,where you're like no, you got to
do this now, I'm just takingyou to, I'm going to fine, and
then you get aggressive right,so it depends and then cause
more hurt yourself.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Or just be like okay, you're unhelpful.
Like there's, you know you.
You don't want to be helped,fine.
Like that's a problem that youhave in your personality.
Like Like, I just did this withmy friend right.
Like I flipped from the rescuerto the persecutor which I don't
.
I have.
I have no interest in actuallypersecuting her, but just in my
own mind I'm like highlycritical of her because I got
burnt out on on helping.
But I'm not sitting herethinking like I'm incapable of
(11:16):
helping people, but I, I mean, Iunderstand that other people
could.
They'd be like, oh, something'swrong with me if I can't fix
this.
And I feel like we could dothat as therapists, like when it
feels like our job to rescue,and then we're not able to
rescue, and then it's like oh,I'm not a good therapist,
there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Or you go like oh, I'm like I've seen actually in
that dynamic you're talkingabout, I've seen you flip to the
victim where you're like thatreally hurts me and I'm like you
know you bring attention, bringattention to your hurt, right,
and then not fully into thevictim.
But you you talk about yourhurt versus like fine, get away,
(11:53):
and then you become theperpetrator of like I'm the one
who abandons.
But the difference with you andyour dynamic is it it didn't
maintain, right?
You?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
You broke out of it.
Okay, I mean, I guess I justI'm kind of like yeah, like when
you try to do something and itdoesn't work, you're like of
course you're going to feel badand then feel bad for yourself
and want other people to listento you.
Like, is that dysfunctional?
I just, I guess part of me islike this makes just normal
(12:27):
human behavior seemdysfunctional, like I don't know
who wouldn't be in these rolesat any given time in life.
Like it.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
You know it seems like it's not right.
It's not saying that if you'rea victim and someone else is a
perpetrator, then you're stuckin this triangle for all of time
.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
It's a triangle.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
for a reason it's not like someone's hurting you and
then you're done, you resolve it.
It's a triangle that'smaintained the dysfunction and
it spins around in its own toxiccycle.
It's a cyclical thing.
So an example would would be Ithink.
I think actually I'm at faultwith this.
(13:08):
I've been in this a lot.
I think this feels a little bitmore natural to me because me,
being a child of divorce, Idefinitely felt like in a
triangle.
I definitely felt like therewas some system between me and
my two parents that wasmaintaining dysfunction.
Right, it felt productivebecause, you know, someone was
(13:31):
hurt and we were yelling at eachother and blah, blah, blah.
But there was always like this.
We were like glued togetherwith this drama.
And the drama was always like,was always kicked off by someone
(13:52):
being super hurt, someone beingthe quote, the person who hurt,
and the other one was trying tofix it.
And I definitely, in that space, felt like sometimes I was the
victim of my mom's like you know, my mom's stuff, the fights and
stuff.
And then I was running to mydad for help and my dad would
call my mom, being like howcould you do this to our
daughter?
Stop it blah, blah, blah.
And then she would get hurt bymy dad saying things, and so
(14:12):
she'd be like, oh, I'm so hurtbecause of what you, because
what he did, and then I would, Iwould actually have to go back
to her to make her feel betterbecause of you know the hurt
that she got from my dad, right?
So it wasn't like, okay, we alltalked this out and we figured
it out and we're going to moveforward.
And it was a.
It was a triangulation ofeveryone playing a part of
(14:37):
maintaining a pain.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, that's helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And what's?
What's interesting is why theyshift is, and what's interesting
is why they shift is because itdoesn't.
What this triangle doesn't dois meet emotional needs in the
long run it doesn't help yougrow, but also the shift shifts
away from a painful reality.
So it's almost kind of like aweird avoidance strategy to
shift into the different rolesand I'm still trying to digest
(15:06):
what that means.
But it's basically like if therole isn't working, they shift
to another part to kind of likestep out of.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Well, yeah, I mean, if you imagine, if you imagine
somebody who's narcissistic,narcissistic, then you know they
are likely to be a persecutormuch of the time.
They're likely to be highlycritical, feel entitled, think
that every, every problem intheir life is somebody else's
fault, right, because they can'tlook at work to then.
(15:38):
Then they then as soon as likenarcissistic injury happens, so
somebody criticizes them, thenthey flip hard into the victim
role.
They can't do anything, right?
How can I feel this way?
But then also it seems likewaffling between persecutor and
victim.
(15:58):
I think that's partly.
What confuses me is that boththe persecutor and the victim
seem like victims to me.
What do you mean?
Well, the persecutor sayingeverything is somebody else's
problem, but that's still.
It's kind of like saying myproblems are somebody else's
problems, but the victim says myproblems are my own problems,
(16:22):
but both of those two charactersseem like victims to me.
You're either a victim of yourown shit or you're a victim of
somebody else's shit, but you'restill a victim yeah, let's,
let's.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Problems and pain probably all three will have it,
but I but maybe I'm seeing thisas like who has power, right
perpetrator is the one who haspower and is trying to fix
problems and their pain throughpower and control over the
victim.
The victim feels like they'repowerless.
It's kind of like when we talkabout this and with people with
(16:56):
borderline personality disorder,how they can flip from active
passivity to, you know, beinglike the competent one, or it's
like did they have power andcontrol and they're doing things
, or are they helpless andhopeless.
And and you need to help me,same with in narcissistic
personality disorder they flipfrom grandiose I can do
(17:18):
everything to the vulnerablenothing and everyone hates me,
right, and so you have that flip.
I'm nothing and everyone hatesme, right, and so you have that
flip.
But then you have a thirdperson who's like mediating and
dealing and helping them withtrying to get out of this, but
really they're not, I mean theredoesn't have to be a third
person, though.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Like the, what I was reading is that you can have
this with two people.
It's just that your roles willflip between the three we.
You were going to analyze my ex.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
There's a really sad comfort that I have in being a
third party right.
That's like this feeling thatI've had in couples therapy when
I was doing couples therapy orwith friends who are, with
friends who are fighting.
It's like you're, you feelcomfortable being the mediator,
but there's something reallyfamiliar and comforting with it.
(18:13):
So, for example, in your lastrelationship when you two were
having a fight, you were therescuer.
Yeah, sometimes Right, likelike one of you would be like,
oh, talk to that person, right,because?
they're not listening and theproblem was that you two weren't
listening to each other's feet.
Like you two had a conflictright In in yourself.
(18:35):
Right, like you two should havebroken up and did break up.
But like, right, like there was, there was like issues in the
relationship, but sometimes youwould pull me in or someone else
to try to like translate, totry to listen to one right and
try to talk to the other personright and I.
(18:58):
I actually said this to some.
I think I forgot who I saidthis to, but I remember saying I
.
I think um your ex's, likethoughts and feelings were
sometimes so aggressive and likehostile that.
I was like, okay, fine, let melet him vent that to me so I can
absorb that, that first bit ofanger so that he doesn't say
(19:21):
that stuff to her right.
And so I would have like hour,hour long conversations where he
would just like spew vitriol atme and then I would like try to
validate or try to be like, tryto do all my things to try to
get them around it, and theneventually I would soften them
up and I'll be like okay, great,then he could go and talk to
her now because, maybe he's in amore open position and I guess
(19:45):
that works sometimes.
I don't know, but like it workedenough, but it was
dysfunctional because what I wastrying to do is absorb the
badness, so that.
But then, like that doesn'treally work in the long term,
that doesn't actually fix what'sgoing on between you.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a bandaid right.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, it hurts you in the long run and also prevents
me from getting the full scaleof the information that would
have allowed me to leave himtheoretically.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, like the time that I flipped into perpetrator
was when he went on a rant abouthow he thought you're
narcissistic or like all the badthings, and he was just like
and I was like, yeah, shedefinitely has those qualities.
Sometimes she could benarcissistic, yeah, that you
know.
Yep, and then, yeah, she'sworried about her looks or I
(20:35):
don't know.
And then he went to you and Iwas like kibby said you're a
narcissist, right, and suddenlyI'm the perpetrator, right, and
so I was like like I was like Iknow better, I know these, I
know these roles switch andthat's the key part for everyone
listening to this if you thinkthat you're just going to be the
(20:55):
victim or the rescuer Sometimes, sometimes switch to the other
ones and and then I've also beenthe victim, like when he gets,
when he got, when I was tryingto mediate with him and then he
got mad and then flipped intoattacking me or threatening me.
I was a victim and I was like Ican't do this, I'm helpless.
Oh my God, right, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And then I'll turn to you for support, Right?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So sometimes it's just like it's basically pain
that's being tossed aroundbetween three people and really
what it needed.
What needed to happen was thatyou two needed to like I needed
to step out.
You needed no mediators, youjust needed to like be with each
other and be like let's workout whatever this is, whatever
this pain is between us, like,let's work it out I think so
(21:45):
with bpd.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
What I was reading is that, like, what can often
happen is they start out as arescuer, which I'm sure, and
they can also start as a victim,but whatever.
But it can be common to startout as a rescuer because they'll
see other people who are indistress and remind them, like
of themselves, for instance.
So, like I just watched thisplay out with my sister and her
(22:06):
ex I hope to God, forever exwhere you know they met in rehab
and whenever my sister goes torehab she always like, highly
identifies with the men thereand she's always, she always
tries to rescue, rescue, rescue,rescue, cause it's a good place
for her right, because normallyshe feels disempowered, um, and
(22:27):
kind of like a victim toalcohol and other stuff.
So with him it's like she tried, you know, she rescued him and
you know, gave her her, her,gave him her time and her energy
and her sympathy, and then, youknow, when she would want space
(22:48):
or something else for herfuture, like he would switch
heavily into the persecutor roleand then she would flip into
the victim role and just be like, oh my, like I'm, you know, I
guess I have to accept anyamount of treatment from him
because you know I lied or Imessed up or you know, whatever
(23:11):
the case may be.
And then he would do somethingso egregious that then she might
become the persecutor for likehalf a second and then would
kind of flip back into thevictim role again, um, and it
was just like on and on and onUm.
And then he would do this allthe time, right, he'd be like
you are a terrible lyingalcoholic slut and you just
(23:32):
cheat on me, which.
The story has been way morecomplicated than that.
And so, therefore, I'm going tohire private investigators to
come spy on you and I'm going tostalk you and I'm going to, you
know, hurt you, and I deserveto do that, because you, you
know you keep throwing away mylove.
(23:53):
How dare you.
And so it was that kind of Ithink that's the thing is it's
like a victim stance that allowshim to then perpetrate.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
That's interesting, I think that's that's.
That's an interesting wrinkleabout how victimhood can be
weaponized to actuallyperpetrate Right.
So even even the drama trianglemight have broken down now and
collapsed and be like you can.
You know you can be aperpetrator and hurt someone by
(24:27):
being the rescuer or you know,and perpetrate from victimhood.
So, wow, this is okay.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Way more complex, way more complex well, this was my
ex too, like always flippingbetween persecution and
victimhood, and then you know,then what can happen is then she
feels really bad, or I feltreally bad with my ex, right,
and then they flip into therescuer oh, it's okay, I'm here
for you, I love you still, likeI, you know, I'm sorry I did
(24:56):
that, but like let's not kissyour boo-boo, make it better, et
cetera.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I think it's interesting and I think that
might just highlight whathappens with the shifts.
The shifts force the other onesmaybe into other roles too.
Right, we talk about this withgaslighting and darvo and I've,
you know, seen them like yourrelationship, where he'll say
something to hurt you, you'll beupset and then he'll go into
(25:29):
the the childlike victim roleand be like oh, it's because I'm
, you know, I can't, I'm so bad,and then you would.
It would pull reassurance andsympathy and caring from you
right right.
So it just like it forces theother person into the other
roles that you you know, to seewhat happens and to try to get
(25:51):
needs met by, like, flippingaround right right.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I guess part of me, though, is like okay, how, how
do we get out of it?
Like, if somebody's in distress, I'm going to find it pretty
hard not to make them feelbetter, and that's not always a
bad, I mean, that's usually agood thing, right.
It's just in this dysfunctionalsystems where something else is
needed.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, I'm also wondering how does?
Well, now the answer to thequestion is coming to my head.
But I was thinking like howdoes this not happen all the
time in couples therapy?
Because, you're literallyintroducing a third person.
Who's?
the rescuer right.
And commonly people don't likecouples therapy because they're
(26:35):
like the therapist was againstme there, because they're like
the couple, the therapist wasagainst me.
So suddenly, like you know, thetherapist would go from, you
know, the rescuer to theperpetrator and then sometimes
they become the victim when thecouple or someone like starts
yelling and be like, how couldyou?
You know you're a bad therapist, how could you do that?
Right?
So it's like couples therapyalmost introduces this drama
(26:57):
triangle.
But I mean, I think, similarlywith what we've been always
talking about, which is gettingstuck, is basically like, how do
we get unstuck?
And I think that for the dramatriangle, family therapists will
say, okay, this is a systemthat's maintaining itself and
(27:20):
it's a dysfunctional system.
All families have a system anda structure that maintains
itself.
Okay, so it's not like threepeople are always going to be
dysfunctional, but when it, whenthere's drama and conflict and
pain being passed around withoutit being resolved, it's almost
like they're bonding over this,over the misery, right, and how
(27:41):
do we relate to that misery?
So it really is about breakingup the triangle.
That gets it, that gets thechange right I'm sure you could
change it in multiple ways.
You could change a system bychanging one of the cogs in the
in the machine but it's reallylike family therapists would
break up the triangle, and whatthat looks like is so when one
(28:04):
of the family therapy trainingsI I went to, she said okay, the
triangulation always happens.
Often happens in families wherethe parents or siblings or
whatever, and then there's like.
Like, let's say, two parentsare fighting, they're
dysfunctional, and then theyhave a kid, um, and the kid is
the mediator, the go-between.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Tell your father tell your mother I'm not gonna right
.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
What happens a lot in in that kind of system is like
often the kid gets reallyanxious because that kid is
absorbing and and involved intriangle of the parent's pain in
their own marriage, right?
So they're not getting theirneeds met as a kid, they're
(28:50):
living in and being raised intheir dysfunction as a couple.
So what you do is you break upthe triangle, you get the kid
out of there.
You kick the kid out and sayparents, you're going to sit and
talk about your problems.
And then a good familytherapist will not take over
(29:11):
that role of rescuer but justlike continually hand it back to
them and say I'm not going torescue you, I'm not going to
rescue anyone.
Okay, because the triangle, ifyou think about it as like a
control thing, is like oneperson has all the power, one
has a you know not as much power, and then there's a third
person trying to mediate thepower right, dynamic, but it's
like no, no, no, no, it's, we'renot gonna, we're not gonna
(29:34):
polarize it.
Everyone has power here.
One person feels hurt, butmaybe all of you feel hurt, but
you gotta, you all have torescue yourself okay so take, so
collapse the the triangle intoa dyad.
Like, just actually try, havepeople talk about things
directly.
No, tell your mom this, tellyour mom that.
(29:56):
No, the parents have to talk toeach other about their pain.
And that's really hard becausea you're breaking up a system, b
you're like, you know, there'snothing to soften, there's
nothing to mediate, it's justopen yourself up to the pain of
what's actually in between youtwo okay, and what if it's just
two people that are roleswitching, like there's no third
(30:19):
mediator, there's no.
I mean then it's all the stuffwe talked about in couples
therapy and communication.
It's about both parties takingaccountability.
It's about both partiesdescribing their experience and
listening to the other person'sexperience and then finding a
mid ground that satisfies bothof their needs.
(30:48):
You know, okay, the otherperson's experience and then
finding a mid ground thatsatisfies both of their needs.
You know, okay, do you feellike you?
You're about to be mostly arescuer in life?
Right, you feel I identify as arescuer, but I often probably I
I identify as a you.
You know what?
Actually, now that I thinkabout it, growing up I felt like
the perpetrator and sometimesand there's other words for this
(31:08):
other like scapegoat.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think, yeah, Was that a victim?
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I thought of myself as a problem and like causing a
lot of the problems, but kind oflike reacting to everything.
And then I grew up and I waslike I want to shift out of this
.
I'm going to be a rescuer.
So, I became a therapist andlike focus on helping people.
But, then I only recentlyrealized how much I probably
(31:36):
have been a victim too.
I really I really under valuemy experiences as a victim and I
think, like we've talked aboutthis where, ever since like
healing from cancer, I was like,oh my God, like the amount of
abuse that I had, like I alwaysthought about like, oh, I'm the
(31:59):
problem.
I was a problem.
I did like life was chaotic andI recognized that, like my
parents, pain and mental illnessand addiction like definitely
affected me, but I didn't reallysee myself as a victim, yeah,
until recently, and I was like,oh, this make this is all making
sense, because a lot of mysymptoms and the way I look at
(32:23):
myself and how much I do thingsto prevent disaster and feel bad
about myself all the time andconstantly feel like I can't
rest because I have to provemyself, is like from times where
I've been a victim.
Yeah, so yeah, so I just, Ithink, I, I, I've only recently
(32:47):
realized, how much I should haveslowed down your persecutor
side like to be a victim youseem less critical.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, like more, like calmer, um, sweeter, I don't
know.
I don't know if that's fromrecognizing that, like you were,
you've been mistreated yeah, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think the the perpetrator feels a little bit
more comfortable because itfeels like I have control and
power right, like with my ex.
It was so confusing because heI strongly identified as a
(33:33):
victim and like he was like oh I, I can't possibly live normal
life.
You know, I have to just smokeweed in your basement and not
really engage.
And I would be like yeah, yeah,yeah, he was a victim.
And I I was like, oh sorry,yeah, he identified as a victim
and I would eventually get solike worried and overwhelmed and
(33:57):
confused why, like he wasn'tworking or doing that?
I would be like what the fuckis going on?
Like why, why aren't you doinganything?
And then he would collapse intolike oh, you're yelling at me.
And then I would feel so guilty,right so I was I was like, oh
my god, like I'm, I'm and hewould say this like I'm
pressuring him, I'm oppressinghim, I'm the one with, I'm the
(34:19):
one with all the power, and I'mlike yelling at him for not
doing anything and making mefeel bad about himself, but at
the same time, I felt helplessand powerless, um, especially
because I had to end up likesupporting him in so many ways
that I didn't agree to, and likeagreeing to a lot of like.
My boundaries were constantlyviolated all the time um.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
So I was like just with your hand feeding him
sandwiches was, uh yeah, mypersonal favorite anecdote, but
like look how weird it was.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I mean the stories, for for people have no idea what
we're talking about.
Oh my god this is.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I hope he's not listening and feed him
sandwiches, because he would gettoo hungry to pick up his own
hands and feed them to himself.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah he was like a 30 something year old doctor who
would.
I would be like are you goingto be hungry, should I get
dinner?
And he'd be like, no, I'm nothungry, and I'm like you're
going to be hungry in like anhour.
You're like, no, it's fine.
And then he would get so hungrythat he would just collapse
onto the couch and be like, ohokay, give me a second, I'll get
(35:25):
.
I'll get up and get some food.
I just can't.
I can't even.
Oh.
And so I would bring him foodand eat it to him so he could
get up a real rescue.
I mean, it was real.
It was real infantilizing, likeI had a baby.
I literally I honestly my babyis a lot more like go get him
(35:47):
then.
But it made me feel like I hadso much power and he was so
helpless and I was like, and sowhen I felt hurt or confused or
whatever, it was reallyconfusing Because I, I was like,
but I have all this power andcontrol and I'm the one who's
determining everything and I'mthe go-getter, alpha, whatever,
but it didn't feel that way, soit was like really, really
(36:10):
confusing yeah and so me beingin the persecutor role feels
comfortable, because I'm likeyeah, I have, I have agency.
But then I was like do I?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, that feels like the more normal role for the
parent to be in is the flipbetween rescuer and persecutor.
Ideally, you spend more time inthe rescuer role if it's your
child.
But that's discipline.
Right?
It's like I'm going todiscipline you now.
It gets pretty weird whenparents are victims and then
their child has to beparentified.
But yeah, so you were flippingbetween rescue and persecutor.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, yeah, I really didn't want to be the rescuer a
lot, but I had to.
Yeah, now that I think about it, she would.
My mom would collapse and youknow be, you know know need
physical help, like going to thehospital or like be hurt that I
left, slash, was kicked out myhouse and she would call me like
(37:07):
how could you leave me?
So I'd have to come backbecause I would feel so bad
about hurting her by leaving.
Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's these.
Are it really interesting?
Okay, I'm learning, I'm likepiecing this together as we talk
about it.
(37:28):
It's really a system that ismaintained by the idea that
there is a imbalance of powerand who seems to wield it to
cause the pain, right, well, Imean, even if even in the origin
stories of of the fairy tales,like sleeping beauty and
(37:50):
cinderella my goodness, likewhat an obvious difference in
power that's set up from thebeginning, right, like
cinderella was a I don't know,like a princess or aristocrat or
whatever she was, and then thestep evil, stepmother, takes
over and takes away literallyall her power to make her, yeah,
like a maid.
So if she was, if it was justlike two equal women battling it
(38:13):
out and some magic mirror doingall in the very godmother
coming in to rescue no one.
Like it's not this, it's not,it's not the same as like oh,
there's a, there's someone hasall the power and we got to
rescue the, the one with nopower, because that's not fair.
We got to fight for justice,right, there's almost like this
third force has to come in tomake it right yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I guess it's important to note.
The victim role is somebody whofeels chronically helpless,
incapable of change, powerless,ashamed often.
But they're not actually avictim of circumstance, so I
don't think that you would.
So Cinderella was a victim ofcircumstance, so that's why we
(38:56):
like her and don't see her asthe victim role in this, even
though, yes, that's the fairytale kind of role that he's
noticing.
But it's like it's.
It's a stance that one takes.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I mean interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I mean, that's just what this article is saying.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That there actually isn't a real power differential.
I mean, I can imagine that whenyou deal with families, there
is a power difference, right,like there's often, like the
father or someone else who'sstronger, right, who has more
financial means or physicalstrength, and then the other one
who's more like helpless andscared, and then the kid who's
trying to save his mom from theabuse Right.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So that that's an example of like real power
differential, but then acts orfeels like one, denying their
ability to take responsibilityor make decisions.
I'm guessing they're makingthat distinction, because if you
(40:03):
are in a dysfunctionalsituation because you are quite
literally the victim, like youare being beaten on, you
yourself are not maintaining thedysfunction, like you don't
have a choice.
That's not, you know, that hasnothing to do with your
personality necessarily.
Now I mean obviously like onehopes that you would leave, but
(40:26):
what maintains the dysfunctionis your taking of that stance,
sort of voluntarily, yeah, orsomething I mean subconsciously.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
But maybe that's why the roles can shift, because
people actually, yeah, you couldtrade the power a little bit
more easily versus situationsthat are very clear-cut, like
this is a boss and this is anemployee and one is harassed,
and there's like an hr thatcomes in and has like rescues,
and this is very clear-cut, likethis is resolved, because this
(40:56):
is a problem yeah, like if you,if if you come across a man
beating up a woman in thestreets and then you rescue that
woman, you're not going to saythat two of those people were
maintaining a dysfunctionalrelationship, like one was an
actual victim, one was an actualrescuer.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
That needed to happen , then we removed.
But if somebody is taking upthat like my ex was always
taking the stance of the victim,the victim to his girlfriend's
whorish past.
How could she do this to mebefore we met?
How?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
could also people know, like if you haven't heard
this before, he would um likeget angry with her and ruminate
over just the idea that she hadexes or had hooked up or dated
people in the past it was asbananas as we're talking about,
so he's not a victim ofcircumstance, right, but he's
(41:53):
taking up that stance.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
So then I had to comfort him and become the
rescuer yeah and then I wouldget sick of that and then be
like fuck you and I'm persecutor.
Yeah, instead of saying youknow what?
I'm not gonna participate, I'mnot gonna rescue you from these
feelings of victimhood.
Yeah, because I had sex beforeyou.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, I wonder if it's not as cleanly in the
triangle, like three people.
I think that just seems to bemaybe more common or anecdotal.
Um, and this is all what we'retalking about is all different
roles involving maintaining atoxic dynamic which is like
(42:42):
almost like maintaining painright, it's.
It's, of course, every situationI mean that's.
This is why the the dramatriangle was talking about like
drama starts with these three,but, like at the end of the
fairy tale, everything's fine,right, like it gets resolved.
Like you know, cinderellabecomes a princess, whatever.
But when we're talking about infamily systems, therapy or like
(43:05):
the drama triangle, it's likeit is ongoing.
It's a system of avoidingresolving pain and keeping it
alive, with three peopleinvolved and playing a role in
that and when one person is donewith that role, they switch to
the other ones, but the rolesare the things that are stable.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Wait, no, but the roles shift.
The roles are stable, but thepeople in the roles are
different.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
What role are you mostcomfortable in?
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Rescuer, I guess I mean I don't think I.
Typically I sometimes criticizepeople behind their backs, but
I feel like that's kind ofnormal.
I mean it's usually when I getfed up, when I perceive them as
being victim or perpetrator,then I'll be like you know
they're perpetuating their ownproblems'll be like you know
(43:59):
they're, you know they'reperpetuating their own problems,
but I don't know.
I mean I have an allergy tobeing a victim.
But certainly, yeah, I mean I Ifeel like I am the victim.
When it comes to moreinstrumental stuff, like, um, I
have the opposite of apparentcompetence when I need to set up
(44:20):
a tent or analyze data.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
And then I'm the damsel in distress you are you
were, yeah, you were, you playvictim, a lot Like you're like
oh my God, I can't do thisanalysis.
And then I sit next to you andyou're like okay, I do this and
this.
And then I'm like you knew howto do it, like you just didn't
think so or you didn't want todo it, you want to make someone
else do it.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I'm so helpless.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
I had a friend who I couldn't believe, like I never
did this before, and I was likewow, the balls, the, the, the
female labia to do this.
She said that she was a littlegirl and she would have
suitcases and when she wastraveling she would stand on the
bottom or the top of thestaircase and just look at the
(45:09):
staircase with like a confusedand scared look and do that
until someone would carry herstuff down.
She was like that was just theway I did it.
I would just stand there and Ijust kind of like look worried
at the stairs until someonecarried her suitcases.
That's what you do with dataanalysis.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, and it's because data analysis makes me
panic.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, I'm publicly outing you.
You actually can do more ofthis stuff.
So anyone out there who thinksthat jacqueline's a victim?
But, however, you are allergicto the victim role because there
are times there are there's alot about your experience where,
like you don't, you will likecontort your mind to justifying
(45:59):
things to, to avoid the victimrole, like if someone was like
actively mean to you or like inyour relationship or otherwise,
you would be like, well, thatmakes sense, I understand why he
would do that.
I mean, I, I definitelytriggered him in this way.
And almost to the point wheresometimes you will like pretend
that you're like this evil, youknow, like Machiavellian, like,
(46:22):
well, this, you know I did this,and that I'm like, no, that's,
that's just like your way ofthinking that you had more way,
more power and control than youdid.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
So yeah, I mean, that's why I told everyone.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
I was a narcissist for like five years.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
But I mean the most, like you know.
I mean I ended thatrelationship and, like the
friendship and the, the mostprominent emotion I had was
guilt.
So that's the rescuer's emotionright I?
Speaker 2 (46:46):
I think that in both of those scenarios you don't say
like that was really hurtful,like even things like sometimes
like your family members willsay something and like your
sister will say something meanto you or like you know your ex
relationship, you know, and youwould.
You, you would get angry, kindof like how I would get angry,
(47:07):
like how dare you?
Like, why does he think this?
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
But you wouldn't be like that really hurt and
actually I'm kind of scaredYou'd be like well, it's because
I did have a assorted past andI'm like, oh, my god, okay, like
yeah, yeah.
I mean it's good that I'vefound another rescuer to date so
(47:36):
that I don't have to take upthat role all the time.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Well, even beyond that, there's no dysfunction.
There's not as obviousdysfunction, at least not that
you know.
So it's not like you know,everyone could be free to be
hurt sometimes and hurt someoneelse, and it's not something
like you and your currentpartner like kind of toss around
the soccer ball of pain.
(48:01):
It's like you know things seemto happen and resolve and you
know.
A really interesting example Ijust thought of of a drama
triangle is the white.
How far are you in the WhiteLotus in?
Speaker 1 (48:13):
the third season.
I finished it.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
The three women Uh-huh the three women-huh the
three women, like threegirlfriends um this is why like
friends, friends of you know,three are tough because, like,
they shit talk each other whenthe other one is away, yeah
right.
And then they shift around.
Who was hurt, who was the one?
Who's the bad one, who like andthey all were kind of at fault
(48:37):
at that like you have the girlwith short hair who's just like.
Oh, you know, like I'm justtrying to yeah I forgot the
names, but oh, I'm just tryingto help.
But then she was like reallycausing some like drama and then
, and you could see in thatwhole season, like they were
just cycling through drama.
It wasn't like they had aproblem, one was a victim, was a
(48:59):
perpetrator and everyone waslike resolved it.
It was a passed around pain andat the end I think they just
kind of I don't want to give itaway, but I think they were like
like this is what binds usRight, Like they kind of they,
they, they all kind of like didthe right thing.
And this is, you know, the tipto get rid of the drama triangle
you like communicate openly andactually address the pain.
(49:22):
But I think that they were alittle bit.
You could be like.
They were like yeah, that likewe are close because we go to
talk to each other and this ishow our friendship goes.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, but I also, laurie, subverted her role.
You know she decided to say outloud like I feel like a victim
sometimes but really I'm luckyto have you and I'm not going to
, I'm not going to lean intoenvy and persecution, right, I'm
going to say I'm glad you havesuch a beautiful face, I'm glad
you have such a beautiful family.
(49:55):
I, you know I'm I'm not goingto take up the role that I
usually take up when I feelvictimized.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, so that's another.
I guess that's another tip islike if you notice yourself, I
guess it's all like I guess itis stepping out of roles in
general.
I think that when we talk aboutdysfunctional families and the
roles you play, the problem isyou just completely becoming a
(50:28):
role right their freedom andautonomy and agency.
Um, it's like there has to be avictim where they never admit
fault.
They're the ones who,completely helpless, and they're
(50:50):
being hurt by other people.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Right, I feel like that's like the blaming one, but
I'm gonna this episode iscoming out after this is
recorded, but I think taking awe care frame is also helpful.
So, basically, likeunderstanding, powerless to an
extent, and I'm going to doopposite action, I'm going to
(51:27):
lean into love these people andthat's how we strengthen these
relationships and therefore thenstrengthen myself.
Um, another person might haveto say like I'm going to lean
out of the rescuer role becauseif I keep doing this I'm going
to flip to persecutor, I'm goingto get resentful and exhausted
and fed up, and so it sucks tonot rescue, it sucks to deny
(51:47):
help.
But if I don't, then thisperson will cease to have my
help forever.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, and recognize that stepping out of those roles
.
It's really scary, because Ithink that when you talk about
family systems like the worstthing that you can imagine
especially a child the worstthing you can imagine is the
destruction of the family.
Right, if I don't rescue, if Idon't mediate between mommy and
(52:16):
daddy, my family is going to bedestroyed, right?
That's a lot for like one personto hold, so they want to, so
they're going to maintain thedysfunction, just because
staying together in pain isworse than like breaking up.
Right, yeah, I can imagine howhard that would be to lean out
of like the rescuer role.
It's kind of like when we, whenwe have patients who are in
(52:42):
that kind of like victim active,passive and they go, I'm
totally helpless, I can't doanything, and we have the
tendency to be like, oh, come on, here's this, here's this other
tool, here's this other likeI'm not going to over function
for my patients sometimes.
And.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
I'm having to learn how to not do that.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, that's totally normal.
That's like that's the rolesyou're set up with.
I'm literally rescue, I'mliterally helping you.
But if the person like iscompletely denying any sorts of
agency and saying, well, you,you're the whatever you know and
I can't do anything, thenyou're going to, it's going to
pull a lot of sympathy andsupport from you.
But when that happens, we'resupposed to drop the rope, like
(53:22):
lean out of the role a littlebit like okay, I'm here if you
need help.
What can you do?
What are, what are things thatyou're willing to do?
All right, like stop working sohard and let them and because
there's a system, right, there'ssome they they have to take up
the mantle, but they have totake up the agency and go well,
like well, in order for us tostay connected.
(53:42):
You're leaning out, so I haveto lean back in a little bit.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
So it's funny I'll notice it in myself when in
session I'm like happy toover-function, like yeah, let me
help you, let's look, I'll comeup with this, but then in
supervision I'll sound veryfrustrated about the patient
supervision.
I'll sound very frustratedabout the patient.
Um, and yeah, I've been toldlike it seems like you're doing
(54:08):
too much work here.
It seems like you're frustratedor annoyed, I'm like, but I
don't feel that way with thewhen I'm actually with them.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
But yeah, because, as we're saying, like, of course,
you being in a helping role andthem being a victim is like
normal, but what's frustratingis that it doesn't lead to
growth, right, I think that'swhen you know there's a
dysfunctional system, is whenpeople don't have, in that
system, the autonomy and freedomand agency to grow.
(54:33):
Right, you're stuck and you'rearrested in the development.
So it would be different if youwere working, working, working
and they go.
Wow, thank you so much.
I I took your advice, Ilistened to you, like you really
helped me.
They're like oh great, like, butit's frustrating when you're
working, working, working,working and you're feeling it's
almost like you're chasing them.
(54:54):
Yeah, um them, yeah.
I think that the tips are, aswe mentioned, like break the
triangle, have people talkdirectly, either as a group,
like the three people.
Talk directly and openly aboutthe pain and not avoid
uncomfortable scenarios anddon't default to a role to avoid
(55:17):
it.
Right, like, if you're talkingabout pain, don't be like oh
gosh, I'm the worst, I can'thelp anything.
Right, kind of the collapse andshame and like falling into the
victim role is a way to kind ofavoid dealing with it.
So, actually just like talkingabout things directly, openly,
(55:37):
try to not avoid discomfort andthen, as we're saying, like to
not just fall into a role, butthat we might have elements of a
lot of different stuff.
Right, sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we're hurt,
sometimes we want to help.
Right, you could have all thosethings and you're not one thing
.
You're not one of those things,things and you're not one thing
(56:01):
.
You're not one of those things,um and just.
I think that the main thing isto like recognize that in your
life when you see a dramatriangle, like maybe you just
reflect on, like, huh, yeah,actually I have two friends that
I'm always in the middle of, oryou know, like I'm always
fighting with my boyfriend, andthat this other friend always
comes to step in and tell themoff right, like notice when you
have these triangles in yourlife and notice if it's not
(56:23):
leading to any change and growth, if it's just passing around,
that drama, then it's time toeither just enjoy it and just
enjoy the ride and know thatthat's something that's binding,
you guys, or to just lean outof it and just be like, okay,
you guys, you guys figure it outon your own, you do it.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
All right.
Well, if you all want to leaninto the role of rescuer, then
we would love to have five starratings on Apple podcast and
Spotify and lovely littlecomments to make us feel better
about ourselves.
But otherwise we'll see you nextweek.
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Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey, little helpers, today wehave a different topic, one that
I had actually never heard ofuntil a follower of ours
suggested it.
It's called the drama triangle,and this really kind of blends
(00:23):
in well, I think, with what wetalk about, with a lot of like
personality disorder, behaviorand interpersonal relationships.
So I'm going to kick it over toKibbe to tell us what the drama
triangle is and tell us howcool a mind can help.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, this is a really interesting topic because
it's something that I learnedin family systems therapy first.
So the idea, in the verysimplest form, is that when you
have a family or closerelationships with someone with
mental illness that'sdysfunctional, often there are
three major roles.
(00:57):
One is the victim, the personwho's hurt, the person who feels
helpless, the person who wantshelp.
You have the perpetrator, theperson who is causing the pain,
who has more power and control.
And then the third is therescuer, someone who rushes in
to fix it, to save the victimfrom the perpetrator and try to,
(01:18):
you know, fix the wholesituation, fix the whole
situation.
So, as we're talking aboutthese different roles, what
we're really talking about isgetting stuck in this toxic
dynamic of someone alwaysneeding rescuing and someone
always fixing and someone alwayslike hurting that really
maintains mental health problemsin a family and really
(01:40):
maintains like toxic dynamics.
So if you have noticed thatwhen we're describing these
roles, if you notice that thisis something that you relate to,
like you find that you'realways trying to help your loved
one who has mental illness andsometimes feeling like you're
the bad guy for it or thingslike that, then this is the
really the kind of stuff thatKula Mind is made to help you
(02:02):
with.
So, again, kula Mind is ouronline platform and community
that will walk you through allthe different strategies we talk
about for supporting a lovedone with mental illness and
really supporting yourself.
So we teach you how to breaktoxic patterns, set boundaries,
respond calmly when things gethard and to really support
(02:23):
yourself and find your own peace.
So if you're interested andit's really working with me
one-on-one and I only have a fewmore slots open, so I'm just,
you know, if you're interested,check out coolamindcom
K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click onget started.
The link is also in the shownotes so you could check it out
there.
So you could just book a freecall with me and just chat about
(02:45):
what you're going through andwe can talk about how I can help
.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I think what's important about the drama
triangle to understand is thatthese roles can shift.
So you may go from being therescuer, where you know you're
always kind of trying to solvethe other person's problems,
you're always trying to changetheir behavior or, like figure
it out, but then if that persondoesn't accept your help or
(03:14):
doesn't, uh like, take youradvice, basically then you might
switch into the persecutor rolewhere it's like well, screw you
.
Then.
Like clearly all this is on you, these are all your problems, I
tried to help, I can't help.
And you know the victim can alsokind of go from like I think
the difference between thevictim and the persecutor is,
(03:35):
like the persecutor tends toblame other people for all of
their problems and they're veryharsh and kind of critical, and
the victim is likely to blamethemselves more and basically
say I'm worthless, I can't doanything right, etc.
But what can happen sometimesis that, like the victim can
(03:57):
kind of elicit help from arescuer, but you know, when that
rescuer gets fed up or whenthey're still not better than
they, can turn into thepersecutor, where they're like
nobody, nobody wants to help me,nobody cares.
You know, everyone else isterrible, yada, yada, yada.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So these roles are dynamic.
Yeah, I find that that's themost interesting part.
I love how it's weird, becausewhen our when our listener
introduced this topic to us, shegave us an article, which I'll
link in the show notes to, thattalks about how the roots of
this drama triangle it's calledCartman drama triangle is from
(04:40):
analyzing fairy tales and I waslike wait what?
And then, reading about it,it's like, oh yeah, drama starts
.
It's like the stories in fairytales.
Like the drama starts withhaving these three roles.
Right, it's like someone needshelp and then another person is,
(05:01):
you know, causing the problem,and then there's someone who's
rescuing.
Right, if you think about likeSleeping Beauty or Cinderella,
like there's always like somekind of dynamic where there's
someone that's helpless andwants something and then there's
forces that are helping themtowards it and getting in the
way.
Right, like there's the villainand then the protagonist and
(05:24):
then the hero.
Right, there's all thesedifferent kinds of roles.
And this idea of the dramatriangle was proposed by Dr
Stephen Cartman in 1968, who wasa psychiatrist, and this is
something from transactionalanalysis which I'm not familiar
with, but it's really trying tounderstand the patterns of
(05:45):
unhealthy relationships and infamily systems therapy.
They also talk abouttriangulation right Having like
three, and the common one thatis seen is like the two parents
and then a third kid or like twosiblings and a parent where the
common dynamic is like twosiblings and a parent where the
(06:08):
common dynamic is tell yourfather that I'm not talking to
him and I want him to help meout.
Well, tell your mother that I'msick of this, right.
Like putting kids in the middleor putting someone in the
middle.
And it could be really subtle,like it's not always so clear,
you know that's.
It's not as dramatic as like asleeping beauty situation, but
it's sometimes there.
There are these roles likethere's someone who's the
(06:28):
mediator in the family, right.
There's someone who's theproblem child and then there's
the other one who's like thenarcissistic, oppressive parent
who's causing all the issues,right.
So there's always like this,these subtle roles that people
fall into when thisdysfunctional dynamics, and they
do shift.
I think that's the coolest part.
It's not like you're just thevictim all the time, which I
(06:50):
think that some people do likefall into those roles more often
.
But you can change, you couldflip to the different roles.
I think that was so interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I okay, I'm not super familiar with this topic, Um,
I'm learning about it today andtherefore maybe some of my
confusion is because I don'tknow enough.
But part of this feels obvious,like, and I can't figure out
how you're supposed to get outof it.
Like it's obvious to me thatsome people are going to want to
(07:21):
help people some of the time,and it's obvious to me that some
people are going to want tohelp people some of the time.
And it's obvious to me thatsome people are going to feel
victimized some of the time.
And it's obvious to me thatsome people are going to be
critical and fed up some of thetime.
And it's like, are those rolesreally?
Or is there like, is there aproblem to that?
Like, is there any way out ofit?
Or are we just sort ofdescribing, like I don't know
(07:43):
what it's like to be a person Idon't know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
There's something that feel that I'm missing here
yeah, yeah, because this isthese are such obvious rules in
any problem like, right, someonegets hurt, someone does the
hurting and then there's someonewho fixes it.
Um, I think this is somethingthat's brought up in family
systems therapy and I also I'mjust learning about this too,
(08:08):
but I really love it's soapplicable to all the things
that we talk about when the ideais that we're not looking at
one person as the problem, orone person has an illness, but
the illness is in the system,and in a system of a family,
it's almost kind of like there'sthis structure, there's this
(08:28):
dynamic that it has to maintainitself and all of these people
play a role in it.
Right, they're kind of like acog in the machine, and
sometimes people are so like,what's most important about that
for the family is that theywant to maintain stability,
(08:49):
right, and they almost choose itover, you know, making a change
, even if it's good, becausestability keeps the family alive
and keeps it together.
So, of course, yeah, everyonegets hurt.
Yeah, there's like everyonegets hurt about it.
But this is the drama triangleis in a situation where there's
always drama and conflicthappening that doesn't get
(09:10):
resolved.
Right, it's like aself-sustaining system that is
constantly like doing its thingand when it gets dysfunctional
is that when people like switcharound and people tend to switch
these roles because this is notworking, this is not ultimately
satisfying your need, right?
It's, for example, like, as yousaid, if the rescuer really
(09:33):
wants to rescue and help and fixa person who's sick or who's
the one who's helpless, thenthey get exhausted and they they
feel hurt and they feel tiredso that because of that, they
flip into the victim like howmany times have I been in the
situation like like this is likealmost like caregiver burnout,
(09:54):
right, where you're like helping, helping, helping, helping,
helping, and then you're likethis is not working.
That person is still stayingstuck.
I'm still staying stuck, fine,I'm done that more of the
persecutor.
And well, no, you're trying tofix, you're trying to help them.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, You're trying to help them but then you get
burnt out and you say, fine, I'mdone, like this is unfixable.
But the victim would say, likeI'm there's something wrong with
me, Right?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, it depends on.
It depends on what happens,right?
And how how that person, if I'mlike, let's say, the fixer,
rescuer, I'm trying to fix, fix,fix, fix, fix, and I get so
tired of it and it isn't working.
It depends on where I want toflip to right.
That's not always clear.
I could flip to the victimwhere I'm like this is so hard
(10:37):
for me, Can't you see how hardit is for me?
I'm helpless and I'm burnt outand depressed.
Or you become the perpetrator,where you're like no, you got to
do this now, I'm just takingyou to, I'm going to fine, and
then you get aggressive right,so it depends and then cause
more hurt yourself.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Or just be like okay, you're unhelpful.
Like there's, you know you.
You don't want to be helped,fine.
Like that's a problem that youhave in your personality.
Like Like, I just did this withmy friend right.
Like I flipped from the rescuerto the persecutor which I don't
.
I have.
I have no interest in actuallypersecuting her, but just in my
own mind I'm like highlycritical of her because I got
burnt out on on helping.
But I'm not sitting herethinking like I'm incapable of
(11:16):
helping people, but I, I mean, Iunderstand that other people
could.
They'd be like, oh, something'swrong with me if I can't fix
this.
And I feel like we could dothat as therapists, like when it
feels like our job to rescue,and then we're not able to
rescue, and then it's like oh,I'm not a good therapist,
there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Or you go like oh, I'm like I've seen actually in
that dynamic you're talkingabout, I've seen you flip to the
victim where you're like thatreally hurts me and I'm like you
know you bring attention, bringattention to your hurt, right,
and then not fully into thevictim.
But you you talk about yourhurt versus like fine, get away,
(11:53):
and then you become theperpetrator of like I'm the one
who abandons.
But the difference with you andyour dynamic is it it didn't
maintain, right?
You?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
You broke out of it.
Okay, I mean, I guess I justI'm kind of like yeah, like when
you try to do something and itdoesn't work, you're like of
course you're going to feel badand then feel bad for yourself
and want other people to listento you.
Like, is that dysfunctional?
I just, I guess part of me islike this makes just normal
(12:27):
human behavior seemdysfunctional, like I don't know
who wouldn't be in these rolesat any given time in life.
Like it.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
You know it seems like it's not right.
It's not saying that if you'rea victim and someone else is a
perpetrator, then you're stuckin this triangle for all of time
.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
It's a triangle.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
for a reason it's not like someone's hurting you and
then you're done, you resolve it.
It's a triangle that'smaintained the dysfunction and
it spins around in its own toxiccycle.
It's a cyclical thing.
So an example would would be Ithink.
I think actually I'm at faultwith this.
(13:08):
I've been in this a lot.
I think this feels a little bitmore natural to me because me,
being a child of divorce, Idefinitely felt like in a
triangle.
I definitely felt like therewas some system between me and
my two parents that wasmaintaining dysfunction.
Right, it felt productivebecause, you know, someone was
(13:31):
hurt and we were yelling at eachother and blah, blah, blah.
But there was always like this.
We were like glued togetherwith this drama.
And the drama was always like,was always kicked off by someone
(13:52):
being super hurt, someone beingthe quote, the person who hurt,
and the other one was trying tofix it.
And I definitely, in that space, felt like sometimes I was the
victim of my mom's like you know, my mom's stuff, the fights and
stuff.
And then I was running to mydad for help and my dad would
call my mom, being like howcould you do this to our
daughter?
Stop it blah, blah, blah.
And then she would get hurt bymy dad saying things, and so
(14:12):
she'd be like, oh, I'm so hurtbecause of what you, because
what he did, and then I would, Iwould actually have to go back
to her to make her feel betterbecause of you know the hurt
that she got from my dad, right?
So it wasn't like, okay, we alltalked this out and we figured
it out and we're going to moveforward.
And it was a.
It was a triangulation ofeveryone playing a part of
(14:37):
maintaining a pain.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Okay, that's helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And what's?
What's interesting is why theyshift is, and what's interesting
is why they shift is because itdoesn't.
What this triangle doesn't dois meet emotional needs in the
long run it doesn't help yougrow, but also the shift shifts
away from a painful reality.
So it's almost kind of like aweird avoidance strategy to
shift into the different rolesand I'm still trying to digest
(15:06):
what that means.
But it's basically like if therole isn't working, they shift
to another part to kind of likestep out of.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Well, yeah, I mean, if you imagine, if you imagine
somebody who's narcissistic,narcissistic, then you know they
are likely to be a persecutormuch of the time.
They're likely to be highlycritical, feel entitled, think
that every, every problem intheir life is somebody else's
fault, right, because they can'tlook at work to then.
(15:38):
Then they then as soon as likenarcissistic injury happens, so
somebody criticizes them, thenthey flip hard into the victim
role.
They can't do anything, right?
How can I feel this way?
But then also it seems likewaffling between persecutor and
victim.
(15:58):
I think that's partly.
What confuses me is that boththe persecutor and the victim
seem like victims to me.
What do you mean?
Well, the persecutor sayingeverything is somebody else's
problem, but that's still.
It's kind of like saying myproblems are somebody else's
problems, but the victim says myproblems are my own problems,
(16:22):
but both of those two charactersseem like victims to me.
You're either a victim of yourown shit or you're a victim of
somebody else's shit, but you'restill a victim yeah, let's,
let's.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Problems and pain probably all three will have it,
but I but maybe I'm seeing thisas like who has power, right
perpetrator is the one who haspower and is trying to fix
problems and their pain throughpower and control over the
victim.
The victim feels like they'repowerless.
It's kind of like when we talkabout this and with people with
(16:56):
borderline personality disorder,how they can flip from active
passivity to, you know, beinglike the competent one, or it's
like did they have power andcontrol and they're doing things
, or are they helpless andhopeless.
And and you need to help me,same with in narcissistic
personality disorder they flipfrom grandiose I can do
(17:18):
everything to the vulnerablenothing and everyone hates me,
right, and so you have that flip.
I'm nothing and everyone hatesme, right, and so you have that
flip.
But then you have a thirdperson who's like mediating and
dealing and helping them withtrying to get out of this, but
really they're not, I mean theredoesn't have to be a third
person, though.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Like the, what I was reading is that you can have
this with two people.
It's just that your roles willflip between the three we.
You were going to analyze my ex.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
There's a really sad comfort that I have in being a
third party right.
That's like this feeling thatI've had in couples therapy when
I was doing couples therapy orwith friends who are, with
friends who are fighting.
It's like you're, you feelcomfortable being the mediator,
but there's something reallyfamiliar and comforting with it.
(18:13):
So, for example, in your lastrelationship when you two were
having a fight, you were therescuer.
Yeah, sometimes Right, likelike one of you would be like,
oh, talk to that person, right,because?
they're not listening and theproblem was that you two weren't
listening to each other's feet.
Like you two had a conflictright In in yourself.
(18:35):
Right, like you two should havebroken up and did break up.
But like, right, like there was, there was like issues in the
relationship, but sometimes youwould pull me in or someone else
to try to like translate, totry to listen to one right and
try to talk to the other personright and I.
(18:58):
I actually said this to some.
I think I forgot who I saidthis to, but I remember saying I
.
I think um your ex's, likethoughts and feelings were
sometimes so aggressive and likehostile that.
I was like, okay, fine, let melet him vent that to me so I can
absorb that, that first bit ofanger so that he doesn't say
(19:21):
that stuff to her right.
And so I would have like hour,hour long conversations where he
would just like spew vitriol atme and then I would like try to
validate or try to be like, tryto do all my things to try to
get them around it, and theneventually I would soften them
up and I'll be like okay, great,then he could go and talk to
her now because, maybe he's in amore open position and I guess
(19:45):
that works sometimes.
I don't know, but like it workedenough, but it was
dysfunctional because what I wastrying to do is absorb the
badness, so that.
But then, like that doesn'treally work in the long term,
that doesn't actually fix what'sgoing on between you.
It's a.
It's a.
It's a bandaid right.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, it hurts you in the long run and also prevents
me from getting the full scaleof the information that would
have allowed me to leave himtheoretically.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, like the time that I flipped into perpetrator
was when he went on a rant abouthow he thought you're
narcissistic or like all the badthings, and he was just like
and I was like, yeah, shedefinitely has those qualities.
Sometimes she could benarcissistic, yeah, that you
know.
Yep, and then, yeah, she'sworried about her looks or I
(20:35):
don't know.
And then he went to you and Iwas like kibby said you're a
narcissist, right, and suddenlyI'm the perpetrator, right, and
so I was like like I was like Iknow better, I know these, I
know these roles switch andthat's the key part for everyone
listening to this if you thinkthat you're just going to be the
(20:55):
victim or the rescuer Sometimes, sometimes switch to the other
ones and and then I've also beenthe victim, like when he gets,
when he got, when I was tryingto mediate with him and then he
got mad and then flipped intoattacking me or threatening me.
I was a victim and I was like Ican't do this, I'm helpless.
Oh my God, right, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And then I'll turn to you for support, Right?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So sometimes it's just like it's basically pain
that's being tossed aroundbetween three people and really
what it needed.
What needed to happen was thatyou two needed to like I needed
to step out.
You needed no mediators, youjust needed to like be with each
other and be like let's workout whatever this is, whatever
this pain is between us, like,let's work it out I think so
(21:45):
with bpd.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
What I was reading is that, like, what can often
happen is they start out as arescuer, which I'm sure, and
they can also start as a victim,but whatever.
But it can be common to startout as a rescuer because they'll
see other people who are indistress and remind them, like
of themselves, for instance.
So, like I just watched thisplay out with my sister and her
(22:06):
ex I hope to God, forever exwhere you know they met in rehab
and whenever my sister goes torehab she always like, highly
identifies with the men thereand she's always, she always
tries to rescue, rescue, rescue,rescue, cause it's a good place
for her right, because normallyshe feels disempowered, um, and
(22:27):
kind of like a victim toalcohol and other stuff.
So with him it's like she tried, you know, she rescued him and
you know, gave her her, her,gave him her time and her energy
and her sympathy, and then, youknow, when she would want space
(22:48):
or something else for herfuture, like he would switch
heavily into the persecutor roleand then she would flip into
the victim role and just be like, oh my, like I'm, you know, I
guess I have to accept anyamount of treatment from him
because you know I lied or Imessed up or you know, whatever
(23:11):
the case may be.
And then he would do somethingso egregious that then she might
become the persecutor for likehalf a second and then would
kind of flip back into thevictim role again, um, and it
was just like on and on and onUm.
And then he would do this allthe time, right, he'd be like
you are a terrible lyingalcoholic slut and you just
(23:32):
cheat on me, which.
The story has been way morecomplicated than that.
And so, therefore, I'm going tohire private investigators to
come spy on you and I'm going tostalk you and I'm going to, you
know, hurt you, and I deserveto do that, because you, you
know you keep throwing away mylove.
(23:53):
How dare you.
And so it was that kind of Ithink that's the thing is it's
like a victim stance that allowshim to then perpetrate.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
That's interesting, I think that's that's.
That's an interesting wrinkleabout how victimhood can be
weaponized to actuallyperpetrate Right.
So even even the drama trianglemight have broken down now and
collapsed and be like you can.
You know you can be aperpetrator and hurt someone by
(24:27):
being the rescuer or you know,and perpetrate from victimhood.
So, wow, this is okay.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Way more complex, way more complex well, this was my
ex too, like always flippingbetween persecution and
victimhood, and then you know,then what can happen is then she
feels really bad, or I feltreally bad with my ex, right,
and then they flip into therescuer oh, it's okay, I'm here
for you, I love you still, likeI, you know, I'm sorry I did
(24:56):
that, but like let's not kissyour boo-boo, make it better, et
cetera.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I think it's interesting and I think that
might just highlight whathappens with the shifts.
The shifts force the other onesmaybe into other roles too.
Right, we talk about this withgaslighting and darvo and I've,
you know, seen them like yourrelationship, where he'll say
something to hurt you, you'll beupset and then he'll go into
(25:29):
the the childlike victim roleand be like oh, it's because I'm
, you know, I can't, I'm so bad,and then you would.
It would pull reassurance andsympathy and caring from you
right right.
So it just like it forces theother person into the other
roles that you you know, to seewhat happens and to try to get
(25:51):
needs met by, like, flippingaround right right.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I guess part of me, though, is like okay, how, how
do we get out of it?
Like, if somebody's in distress, I'm going to find it pretty
hard not to make them feelbetter, and that's not always a
bad, I mean, that's usually agood thing, right.
It's just in this dysfunctionalsystems where something else is
needed.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, I'm also wondering how does?
Well, now the answer to thequestion is coming to my head.
But I was thinking like howdoes this not happen all the
time in couples therapy?
Because, you're literallyintroducing a third person.
Who's?
the rescuer right.
And commonly people don't likecouples therapy because they're
(26:35):
like the therapist was againstme there, because they're like
the couple, the therapist wasagainst me.
So suddenly, like you know, thetherapist would go from, you
know, the rescuer to theperpetrator and then sometimes
they become the victim when thecouple or someone like starts
yelling and be like, how couldyou?
You know you're a bad therapist, how could you do that?
Right?
So it's like couples therapyalmost introduces this drama
(26:57):
triangle.
But I mean, I think, similarlywith what we've been always
talking about, which is gettingstuck, is basically like, how do
we get unstuck?
And I think that for the dramatriangle, family therapists will
say, okay, this is a systemthat's maintaining itself and
(27:20):
it's a dysfunctional system.
All families have a system anda structure that maintains
itself.
Okay, so it's not like threepeople are always going to be
dysfunctional, but when it, whenthere's drama and conflict and
pain being passed around withoutit being resolved, it's almost
like they're bonding over this,over the misery, right, and how
(27:41):
do we relate to that misery?
So it really is about breakingup the triangle.
That gets it, that gets thechange right I'm sure you could
change it in multiple ways.
You could change a system bychanging one of the cogs in the
in the machine but it's reallylike family therapists would
break up the triangle, and whatthat looks like is so when one
(28:04):
of the family therapy trainingsI I went to, she said okay, the
triangulation always happens.
Often happens in families wherethe parents or siblings or
whatever, and then there's like.
Like, let's say, two parentsare fighting, they're
dysfunctional, and then theyhave a kid, um, and the kid is
the mediator, the go-between.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Tell your father tell your mother I'm not gonna right
.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
What happens a lot in in that kind of system is like
often the kid gets reallyanxious because that kid is
absorbing and and involved intriangle of the parent's pain in
their own marriage, right?
So they're not getting theirneeds met as a kid, they're
(28:50):
living in and being raised intheir dysfunction as a couple.
So what you do is you break upthe triangle, you get the kid
out of there.
You kick the kid out and sayparents, you're going to sit and
talk about your problems.
And then a good familytherapist will not take over
(29:11):
that role of rescuer but justlike continually hand it back to
them and say I'm not going torescue you, I'm not going to
rescue anyone.
Okay, because the triangle, ifyou think about it as like a
control thing, is like oneperson has all the power, one
has a you know not as much power, and then there's a third
person trying to mediate thepower right, dynamic, but it's
like no, no, no, no, it's, we'renot gonna, we're not gonna
(29:34):
polarize it.
Everyone has power here.
One person feels hurt, butmaybe all of you feel hurt, but
you gotta, you all have torescue yourself okay so take, so
collapse the the triangle intoa dyad.
Like, just actually try, havepeople talk about things
directly.
No, tell your mom this, tellyour mom that.
(29:56):
No, the parents have to talk toeach other about their pain.
And that's really hard becausea you're breaking up a system, b
you're like, you know, there'snothing to soften, there's
nothing to mediate, it's justopen yourself up to the pain of
what's actually in between youtwo okay, and what if it's just
two people that are roleswitching, like there's no third
(30:19):
mediator, there's no.
I mean then it's all the stuffwe talked about in couples
therapy and communication.
It's about both parties takingaccountability.
It's about both partiesdescribing their experience and
listening to the other person'sexperience and then finding a
mid ground that satisfies bothof their needs.
(30:48):
You know, okay, the otherperson's experience and then
finding a mid ground thatsatisfies both of their needs.
You know, okay, do you feellike you?
You're about to be mostly arescuer in life?
Right, you feel I identify as arescuer, but I often probably I
I identify as a you.
You know what?
Actually, now that I thinkabout it, growing up I felt like
the perpetrator and sometimesand there's other words for this
(31:08):
other like scapegoat.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think, yeah, Was that a victim?
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I thought of myself as a problem and like causing a
lot of the problems, but kind oflike reacting to everything.
And then I grew up and I waslike I want to shift out of this
.
I'm going to be a rescuer.
So, I became a therapist andlike focus on helping people.
But, then I only recentlyrealized how much I probably
(31:36):
have been a victim too.
I really I really under valuemy experiences as a victim and I
think, like we've talked aboutthis where, ever since like
healing from cancer, I was like,oh my God, like the amount of
abuse that I had, like I alwaysthought about like, oh, I'm the
(31:59):
problem.
I was a problem.
I did like life was chaotic andI recognized that, like my
parents, pain and mental illnessand addiction like definitely
affected me, but I didn't reallysee myself as a victim, yeah,
until recently, and I was like,oh, this make this is all making
sense, because a lot of mysymptoms and the way I look at
(32:23):
myself and how much I do thingsto prevent disaster and feel bad
about myself all the time andconstantly feel like I can't
rest because I have to provemyself, is like from times where
I've been a victim.
Yeah, so yeah, so I just, Ithink, I, I, I've only recently
(32:47):
realized, how much I should haveslowed down your persecutor
side like to be a victim youseem less critical.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, like more, like calmer, um, sweeter, I don't
know.
I don't know if that's fromrecognizing that, like you were,
you've been mistreated yeah, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think the the perpetrator feels a little bit
more comfortable because itfeels like I have control and
power right, like with my ex.
It was so confusing because heI strongly identified as a
(33:33):
victim and like he was like oh I, I can't possibly live normal
life.
You know, I have to just smokeweed in your basement and not
really engage.
And I would be like yeah, yeah,yeah, he was a victim.
And I I was like, oh sorry,yeah, he identified as a victim
and I would eventually get solike worried and overwhelmed and
(33:57):
confused why, like he wasn'tworking or doing that?
I would be like what the fuckis going on?
Like why, why aren't you doinganything?
And then he would collapse intolike oh, you're yelling at me.
And then I would feel so guilty,right so I was I was like, oh
my god, like I'm, I'm and hewould say this like I'm
pressuring him, I'm oppressinghim, I'm the one with, I'm the
(34:19):
one with all the power, and I'mlike yelling at him for not
doing anything and making mefeel bad about himself, but at
the same time, I felt helplessand powerless, um, especially
because I had to end up likesupporting him in so many ways
that I didn't agree to, and likeagreeing to a lot of like.
My boundaries were constantlyviolated all the time um.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
So I was like just with your hand feeding him
sandwiches was, uh yeah, mypersonal favorite anecdote, but
like look how weird it was.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I mean the stories, for for people have no idea what
we're talking about.
Oh my god this is.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I hope he's not listening and feed him
sandwiches, because he would gettoo hungry to pick up his own
hands and feed them to himself.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah he was like a 30 something year old doctor who
would.
I would be like are you goingto be hungry, should I get
dinner?
And he'd be like, no, I'm nothungry, and I'm like you're
going to be hungry in like anhour.
You're like, no, it's fine.
And then he would get so hungrythat he would just collapse
onto the couch and be like, ohokay, give me a second, I'll get
(35:25):
.
I'll get up and get some food.
I just can't.
I can't even.
Oh.
And so I would bring him foodand eat it to him so he could
get up a real rescue.
I mean, it was real.
It was real infantilizing, likeI had a baby.
I literally I honestly my babyis a lot more like go get him
(35:47):
then.
But it made me feel like I hadso much power and he was so
helpless and I was like, and sowhen I felt hurt or confused or
whatever, it was reallyconfusing Because I, I was like,
but I have all this power andcontrol and I'm the one who's
determining everything and I'mthe go-getter, alpha, whatever,
but it didn't feel that way, soit was like really, really
(36:10):
confusing yeah and so me beingin the persecutor role feels
comfortable, because I'm likeyeah, I have, I have agency.
But then I was like do I?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, that feels like the more normal role for the
parent to be in is the flipbetween rescuer and persecutor.
Ideally, you spend more time inthe rescuer role if it's your
child.
But that's discipline.
Right?
It's like I'm going todiscipline you now.
It gets pretty weird whenparents are victims and then
their child has to beparentified.
But yeah, so you were flippingbetween rescue and persecutor.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, yeah, I really didn't want to be the rescuer a
lot, but I had to.
Yeah, now that I think about it, she would.
My mom would collapse and youknow be, you know know need
physical help, like going to thehospital or like be hurt that I
left, slash, was kicked out myhouse and she would call me like
(37:07):
how could you leave me?
So I'd have to come backbecause I would feel so bad
about hurting her by leaving.
Yeah, yeah, so it's, it's these.
Are it really interesting?
Okay, I'm learning, I'm likepiecing this together as we talk
about it.
(37:28):
It's really a system that ismaintained by the idea that
there is a imbalance of powerand who seems to wield it to
cause the pain, right, well, Imean, even if even in the origin
stories of of the fairy tales,like sleeping beauty and
(37:50):
cinderella my goodness, likewhat an obvious difference in
power that's set up from thebeginning, right, like
cinderella was a I don't know,like a princess or aristocrat or
whatever she was, and then thestep evil, stepmother, takes
over and takes away literallyall her power to make her, yeah,
like a maid.
So if she was, if it was justlike two equal women battling it
(38:13):
out and some magic mirror doingall in the very godmother
coming in to rescue no one.
Like it's not this, it's not,it's not the same as like oh,
there's a, there's someone hasall the power and we got to
rescue the, the one with nopower, because that's not fair.
We got to fight for justice,right, there's almost like this
third force has to come in tomake it right yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I guess it's important to note.
The victim role is somebody whofeels chronically helpless,
incapable of change, powerless,ashamed often.
But they're not actually avictim of circumstance, so I
don't think that you would.
So Cinderella was a victim ofcircumstance, so that's why we
(38:56):
like her and don't see her asthe victim role in this, even
though, yes, that's the fairytale kind of role that he's
noticing.
But it's like it's.
It's a stance that one takes.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I mean interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
I mean, that's just what this article is saying.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That there actually isn't a real power differential.
I mean, I can imagine that whenyou deal with families, there
is a power difference, right,like there's often, like the
father or someone else who'sstronger, right, who has more
financial means or physicalstrength, and then the other one
who's more like helpless andscared, and then the kid who's
trying to save his mom from theabuse Right.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So that that's an example of like real power
differential, but then acts orfeels like one, denying their
ability to take responsibilityor make decisions.
I'm guessing they're makingthat distinction, because if you
(40:03):
are in a dysfunctionalsituation because you are quite
literally the victim, like youare being beaten on, you
yourself are not maintaining thedysfunction, like you don't
have a choice.
That's not, you know, that hasnothing to do with your
personality necessarily.
Now I mean obviously like onehopes that you would leave, but
(40:26):
what maintains the dysfunctionis your taking of that stance,
sort of voluntarily, yeah, orsomething I mean subconsciously.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
But maybe that's why the roles can shift, because
people actually, yeah, you couldtrade the power a little bit
more easily versus situationsthat are very clear-cut, like
this is a boss and this is anemployee and one is harassed,
and there's like an hr thatcomes in and has like rescues,
and this is very clear-cut, likethis is resolved, because this
(40:56):
is a problem yeah, like if you,if if you come across a man
beating up a woman in thestreets and then you rescue that
woman, you're not going to saythat two of those people were
maintaining a dysfunctionalrelationship, like one was an
actual victim, one was an actualrescuer.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
That needed to happen , then we removed.
But if somebody is taking upthat like my ex was always
taking the stance of the victim,the victim to his girlfriend's
whorish past.
How could she do this to mebefore we met?
How?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
could also people know, like if you haven't heard
this before, he would um likeget angry with her and ruminate
over just the idea that she hadexes or had hooked up or dated
people in the past it was asbananas as we're talking about,
so he's not a victim ofcircumstance, right, but he's
(41:53):
taking up that stance.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
So then I had to comfort him and become the
rescuer yeah and then I wouldget sick of that and then be
like fuck you and I'm persecutor.
Yeah, instead of saying youknow what?
I'm not gonna participate, I'mnot gonna rescue you from these
feelings of victimhood.
Yeah, because I had sex beforeyou.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, I wonder if it's not as cleanly in the
triangle, like three people.
I think that just seems to bemaybe more common or anecdotal.
Um, and this is all what we'retalking about is all different
roles involving maintaining atoxic dynamic which is like
(42:42):
almost like maintaining painright, it's.
It's, of course, every situationI mean that's.
This is why the the dramatriangle was talking about like
drama starts with these three,but, like at the end of the
fairy tale, everything's fine,right, like it gets resolved.
Like you know, cinderellabecomes a princess, whatever.
But when we're talking about infamily systems, therapy or like
(43:05):
the drama triangle, it's likeit is ongoing.
It's a system of avoidingresolving pain and keeping it
alive, with three peopleinvolved and playing a role in
that and when one person is donewith that role, they switch to
the other ones, but the rolesare the things that are stable.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Wait, no, but the roles shift.
The roles are stable, but thepeople in the roles are
different.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
What role are you mostcomfortable in?
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Rescuer, I guess I mean I don't think I.
Typically I sometimes criticizepeople behind their backs, but
I feel like that's kind ofnormal.
I mean it's usually when I getfed up, when I perceive them as
being victim or perpetrator,then I'll be like you know
they're perpetuating their ownproblems'll be like you know
(43:59):
they're, you know they'reperpetuating their own problems,
but I don't know.
I mean I have an allergy tobeing a victim.
But certainly, yeah, I mean I Ifeel like I am the victim.
When it comes to moreinstrumental stuff, like, um, I
have the opposite of apparentcompetence when I need to set up
(44:20):
a tent or analyze data.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
And then I'm the damsel in distress you are you
were, yeah, you were, you playvictim, a lot Like you're like
oh my God, I can't do thisanalysis.
And then I sit next to you andyou're like okay, I do this and
this.
And then I'm like you knew howto do it, like you just didn't
think so or you didn't want todo it, you want to make someone
else do it.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I'm so helpless.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
I had a friend who I couldn't believe, like I never
did this before, and I was likewow, the balls, the, the, the
female labia to do this.
She said that she was a littlegirl and she would have
suitcases and when she wastraveling she would stand on the
bottom or the top of thestaircase and just look at the
(45:09):
staircase with like a confusedand scared look and do that
until someone would carry herstuff down.
She was like that was just theway I did it.
I would just stand there and Ijust kind of like look worried
at the stairs until someonecarried her suitcases.
That's what you do with dataanalysis.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, and it's because data analysis makes me
panic.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, I'm publicly outing you.
You actually can do more ofthis stuff.
So anyone out there who thinksthat jacqueline's a victim?
But, however, you are allergicto the victim role because there
are times there are there's alot about your experience where,
like you don't, you will likecontort your mind to justifying
(45:59):
things to, to avoid the victimrole, like if someone was like
actively mean to you or like inyour relationship or otherwise,
you would be like, well, thatmakes sense, I understand why he
would do that.
I mean, I, I definitelytriggered him in this way.
And almost to the point wheresometimes you will like pretend
that you're like this evil, youknow, like Machiavellian, like,
(46:22):
well, this, you know I did this,and that I'm like, no, that's,
that's just like your way ofthinking that you had more way,
more power and control than youdid.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
So yeah, I mean, that's why I told everyone.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
I was a narcissist for like five years.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
But I mean the most, like you know.
I mean I ended thatrelationship and, like the
friendship and the, the mostprominent emotion I had was
guilt.
So that's the rescuer's emotionright I?
Speaker 2 (46:46):
I think that in both of those scenarios you don't say
like that was really hurtful,like even things like sometimes
like your family members willsay something and like your
sister will say something meanto you or like you know your ex
relationship, you know, and youwould.
You, you would get angry, kindof like how I would get angry,
(47:07):
like how dare you?
Like, why does he think this?
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
But you wouldn't be like that really hurt and
actually I'm kind of scaredYou'd be like well, it's because
I did have a assorted past andI'm like, oh, my god, okay, like
yeah, yeah.
I mean it's good that I'vefound another rescuer to date so
(47:36):
that I don't have to take upthat role all the time.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Well, even beyond that, there's no dysfunction.
There's not as obviousdysfunction, at least not that
you know.
So it's not like you know,everyone could be free to be
hurt sometimes and hurt someoneelse, and it's not something
like you and your currentpartner like kind of toss around
the soccer ball of pain.
(48:01):
It's like you know things seemto happen and resolve and you
know.
A really interesting example Ijust thought of of a drama
triangle is the white.
How far are you in the WhiteLotus in?
Speaker 1 (48:13):
the third season.
I finished it.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
The three women Uh-huh the three women-huh the
three women, like threegirlfriends um this is why like
friends, friends of you know,three are tough because, like,
they shit talk each other whenthe other one is away, yeah
right.
And then they shift around.
Who was hurt, who was the one?
Who's the bad one, who like andthey all were kind of at fault
(48:37):
at that like you have the girlwith short hair who's just like.
Oh, you know, like I'm justtrying to yeah I forgot the
names, but oh, I'm just tryingto help.
But then she was like reallycausing some like drama and then
, and you could see in thatwhole season, like they were
just cycling through drama.
It wasn't like they had aproblem, one was a victim, was a
(48:59):
perpetrator and everyone waslike resolved it.
It was a passed around pain andat the end I think they just
kind of I don't want to give itaway, but I think they were like
like this is what binds usRight, Like they kind of they,
they, they all kind of like didthe right thing.
And this is, you know, the tipto get rid of the drama triangle
you like communicate openly andactually address the pain.
(49:22):
But I think that they were alittle bit.
You could be like.
They were like yeah, that likewe are close because we go to
talk to each other and this ishow our friendship goes.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, but I also, laurie, subverted her role.
You know she decided to say outloud like I feel like a victim
sometimes but really I'm luckyto have you and I'm not going to
, I'm not going to lean intoenvy and persecution, right, I'm
going to say I'm glad you havesuch a beautiful face, I'm glad
you have such a beautiful family.
(49:55):
I, you know I'm I'm not goingto take up the role that I
usually take up when I feelvictimized.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, so that's another.
I guess that's another tip islike if you notice yourself, I
guess it's all like I guess itis stepping out of roles in
general.
I think that when we talk aboutdysfunctional families and the
roles you play, the problem isyou just completely becoming a
(50:28):
role right their freedom andautonomy and agency.
Um, it's like there has to be avictim where they never admit
fault.
They're the ones who,completely helpless, and they're
(50:50):
being hurt by other people.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Right, I feel like that's like the blaming one, but
I'm gonna this episode iscoming out after this is
recorded, but I think taking awe care frame is also helpful.
So, basically, likeunderstanding, powerless to an
extent, and I'm going to doopposite action, I'm going to
(51:27):
lean into love these people andthat's how we strengthen these
relationships and therefore thenstrengthen myself.
Um, another person might haveto say like I'm going to lean
out of the rescuer role becauseif I keep doing this I'm going
to flip to persecutor, I'm goingto get resentful and exhausted
and fed up, and so it sucks tonot rescue, it sucks to deny
(51:47):
help.
But if I don't, then thisperson will cease to have my
help forever.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Yeah, and recognize that stepping out of those roles
.
It's really scary, because Ithink that when you talk about
family systems like the worstthing that you can imagine
especially a child the worstthing you can imagine is the
destruction of the family.
Right, if I don't rescue, if Idon't mediate between mommy and
(52:16):
daddy, my family is going to bedestroyed, right?
That's a lot for like one personto hold, so they want to, so
they're going to maintain thedysfunction, just because
staying together in pain isworse than like breaking up.
Right, yeah, I can imagine howhard that would be to lean out
of like the rescuer role.
It's kind of like when we, whenwe have patients who are in
(52:42):
that kind of like victim active,passive and they go, I'm
totally helpless, I can't doanything, and we have the
tendency to be like, oh, come on, here's this, here's this other
tool, here's this other likeI'm not going to over function
for my patients sometimes.
And.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
I'm having to learn how to not do that.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, that's totally normal.
That's like that's the rolesyou're set up with.
I'm literally rescue, I'mliterally helping you.
But if the person like iscompletely denying any sorts of
agency and saying, well, you,you're the whatever you know and
I can't do anything, thenyou're going to, it's going to
pull a lot of sympathy andsupport from you.
But when that happens, we'resupposed to drop the rope, like
(53:22):
lean out of the role a littlebit like okay, I'm here if you
need help.
What can you do?
What are, what are things thatyou're willing to do?
All right, like stop working sohard and let them and because
there's a system, right, there'ssome they they have to take up
the mantle, but they have totake up the agency and go well,
like well, in order for us tostay connected.
(53:42):
You're leaning out, so I haveto lean back in a little bit.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
So it's funny I'll notice it in myself when in
session I'm like happy toover-function, like yeah, let me
help you, let's look, I'll comeup with this, but then in
supervision I'll sound veryfrustrated about the patient
supervision.
I'll sound very frustratedabout the patient.
Um, and yeah, I've been toldlike it seems like you're doing
(54:08):
too much work here.
It seems like you're frustratedor annoyed, I'm like, but I
don't feel that way with thewhen I'm actually with them.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
But yeah, because, as we're saying, like, of course,
you being in a helping role andthem being a victim is like
normal, but what's frustratingis that it doesn't lead to
growth, right, I think that'swhen you know there's a
dysfunctional system, is whenpeople don't have, in that
system, the autonomy and freedomand agency to grow.
(54:33):
Right, you're stuck and you'rearrested in the development.
So it would be different if youwere working, working, working
and they go.
Wow, thank you so much.
I I took your advice, Ilistened to you, like you really
helped me.
They're like oh great, like, butit's frustrating when you're
working, working, working,working and you're feeling it's
almost like you're chasing them.
(54:54):
Yeah, um them, yeah.
I think that the tips are, aswe mentioned, like break the
triangle, have people talkdirectly, either as a group,
like the three people.
Talk directly and openly aboutthe pain and not avoid
uncomfortable scenarios anddon't default to a role to avoid
(55:17):
it.
Right, like, if you're talkingabout pain, don't be like oh
gosh, I'm the worst, I can'thelp anything.
Right, kind of the collapse andshame and like falling into the
victim role is a way to kind ofavoid dealing with it.
So, actually just like talkingabout things directly, openly,
(55:37):
try to not avoid discomfort andthen, as we're saying, like to
not just fall into a role, butthat we might have elements of a
lot of different stuff.
Right, sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we're hurt,
sometimes we want to help.
Right, you could have all thosethings and you're not one thing
.
You're not one of those things,things and you're not one thing
(56:01):
.
You're not one of those things,um and just.
I think that the main thing isto like recognize that in your
life when you see a dramatriangle, like maybe you just
reflect on, like, huh, yeah,actually I have two friends that
I'm always in the middle of, oryou know, like I'm always
fighting with my boyfriend, andthat this other friend always
comes to step in and tell themoff right, like notice when you
have these triangles in yourlife and notice if it's not
(56:23):
leading to any change and growth, if it's just passing around,
that drama, then it's time toeither just enjoy it and just
enjoy the ride and know thatthat's something that's binding,
you guys, or to just lean outof it and just be like, okay,
you guys, you guys figure it outon your own, you do it.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
All right.
Well, if you all want to leaninto the role of rescuer, then
we would love to have five starratings on Apple podcast and
Spotify and lovely littlecomments to make us feel better
about ourselves.
But otherwise we'll see you nextweek.
By accessing this podcast, Iacknowledge that the hosts of
(57:06):
this podcast make no warranty,guarantee or representation as
to the accuracy or sufficiencyof the information featured in
this podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
or through this podcast areprovided for general,
(57:28):
non-commercial informationalpurposes only and do not
constitute the practice ofmedical or any other
professional judgment, advice,diagnosis or treatment and
should not be considered or usedas a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a dually licensedand qualified healthcare
provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
(57:49):
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
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