June 18, 2025 • 61 mins
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What happens when you can't understand what others are thinking or feeling? Why do some people constantly misinterpret your intentions? The answers lie in a fascinating psychological process called mentalization.
Mentalization—our ability to understand the thoughts, feelings, and intentions of others and ourselves—forms the foundation of healthy relationships. When this process goes awry, as it often does in Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), relationships become minefields of misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and confusion.
In this episode, we delve into Jacqueline's dissertation topic of how mentalization can go awry with deep shame and personality pathology. Shame emerges as the critical factor that disrupts mentalization. Those with BPD often carry core beliefs about being defective or unlovable, coloring how they interpret others' thoughts about them. If you believe you're worthless, you'll likely assume others see you that way too, regardless of evidence. This creates patterns of negative assumptions without sufficient proof that can become self-fulfilling prophecies as relationships deteriorate.
The social media landscape introduces new challenges, bombarding us with inconsistent feedback that mirrors the chaotic responses some experienced in childhood. When hundreds love you and hundreds hate you simultaneously, how do you form a coherent sense of self?
Ready to learn more? Our community and group course launches July 14th—visit KulaMind.com to join the waitlist and gain the skills to navigate relationships with loved ones facing mental health challenges.
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hey, little helpers, todaywe're going to talk about my
dissertation, but I promise Iwill not drag you through a
boring description of my methodsand results.
We're just going to be focusingon the topic itself, which, for
me, was something calledmentalization and I was looking
(00:22):
specifically in borderlinepersonality disorder, was
something called mentalizationand I was looking specifically
in borderline personalitydisorder.
But to not confuse you further,I'll say that mentalization is
kind of like when we think aboutwhat is in another person's
mind or what's in our own mind.
So I'm looking at Kibbe here.
If I'm mentalizing, I'm kind oflike trying to figure out what
it is that she's thinking orfeeling, or maybe what she
(00:45):
believes about herself or theworld, and I'm using clues like
conversations we've had in thepast or the facial expressions
she's making right now or how Ifeel in her company, which is
just gross and and off-puttingand frightening.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02):
Excuse me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:12):
No, which is lovely and light and
fulfilled, and I'm makinginferences about who she is
because of that.
But I could also be doing thesame thing with myself.
What am I thinking Based onthese physical sensations I'm
having?
What emotion could this be?
What might I think about afuture situation If you told me
to go jump off a rocky cliffinto the azure waters below?
(01:34):
How might I feel about thatwhen the time comes?
So it's this really, reallybroad term, and there are a
couple of terms that we use morefrequently, like empathy, and
that gets at a lot ofmentalization, but I think
mostly we'll be using the termmentalizing now.
Is that fair?
I can add a lot more to thatdefinition, but I don't want to
(01:56):
bore people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:58):
Yeah, I think it's all of these different.
The big category is socialcognition, right, and it's like
what do we think, what are ourthoughts doing in social
situations and mentalization,specifically like my thought
process around what you'rethinking or what I'm thinking.
So, yeah, Cool.
Well, I'm going to get good attaking as another piece, but you
(02:21):
know, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:22):
Yeah, taking empathy, like all of
these words we use to describejust figuring out how another
person thinks and feels.
That's mentalizing.
What can cool in mind, help usor tell us about mentalizing?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:37):
Well, we got some really exciting stuff
coming up.
Um, we're not I'm notofficially supposed to be
announcing it yet but our groupis starting.
Yeah, our community group isstarting in July, so it opens up
at July 14th.
I'll be spreading the worduntil then.
So, basically, it's KulaMind.
is our platform and communityfor learning all the skills that
(03:00):
we talk about here about how tonavigate the mental illness,
personality disorders, addictionof the people in our lives,
boundary setting, how torecognize when a relationship is
getting abusive and how to setthose boundaries.
And how to take care ofyourself and how to support your
loved ones when they'restruggling, Because I know
(03:21):
there's so many pieces tosupporting a loved one with
mental illness in your life.
So, um, based on what peoplewere saying, I mean we were
doing one-on-one coaching, butwe're also now launching a group
so that more people can join,because we're running out of
spaces.
So, um, if you're interestedand want to learn more, go to
the link in the show notes or goto Kulamind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
(03:45):
There actually is a place whereyou could put your name on the
wait list for the group.
So, if you're interested, justcheck out the website.
You know, ask me, reach out.
You could book a free call andwe could talk about it.
Yeah, I'm really, reallyexcited for this topic because I
know that we love this topic somuch.
It has everything empathy andshame and personality disorder,
(04:09):
and how does one get so messedup when it comes to reading
someone else's emotions?
It's like such a interestingtopic for me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (04:16):
Yeah, I mean it's hyper relevant to
Cool the Mind because you'reworking with like how to help
people be more interpersonallyeffective and like care for
themselves and others when,especially when they have like
dysregulated loved ones, and wereally really need mentalization
to be able to do those things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:35):
Yeah, it's one of those things where I mean
you feel it, we, you when youhave a loved one who cannot
mentalize, who just doesn't haveempathy, who doesn't take your
perspective.
It's maddening, right.
It's like this, this feelingthat you're, you don't matter or
you know, you're just like anobserver watching this person in
their own head, and it doesn'tfeel like a back and forth.
(04:57):
So mentalization, or all theseskills that we talk about, are
just so subtle but so important.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:03):
Yeah Well, you did your dissertation
on empathy, I did mine onmentalization.
I actually, when I firstapplied to the lab and
interviewed with Zach, I wastalking about my interests.
He was like, yeah, I'm notreally that interested in that
stuff, but Kimmy is oh, okay, soyeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:24):
Why would he be taking us?
But yeah, what tell me?
I mean, if, if you couldsummarize your dissertation
question like what you studiedin a question, and how did you
get interested in this?
Actually, I don't even know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:41):
Okay, how would I sum it up in a
sentence?
Um, I was basically wonderingif people with borderline
personality disorder are betterat mentalizing about other
people that are unrelated tothem than they are when they are
themselves in an interaction.
If I were to mentalize aboutyou and Caitlin hanging out and
(06:07):
thinking about how you two mighthave felt in each other's
company and what kinds of thingsyou might've talked about and
thought about, I might be better.
If I have BPD, I'd make betterat doing that than I would be if
I were mentalizing about ushanging out, you and me hanging
out and like wondering whatkinds of things you're thinking
about me and wondering whatkinds of things you might
believe about me and how youmight feel.
And the reason for that isbecause I previously studied for
(06:33):
my thesis.
I studied the role of shame inborderline personality disorder,
and the existing researchsuggests that shame is super
duper important in BPD and thatit's not just that they feel
shame frequently, but that thecore schemas, the kind of core
beliefs they have aboutthemselves, others in the world,
are really impacted by shame.
(06:55):
So I don't think it would comeas a surprise to anybody with
BPD, but a lot of core schemasaround worthlessness,
defectiveness.
I am broken.
There's something wrong with me, I am abandonable.
People don't love me.
There's you know I'm, I'mdefective.
And if you think that you aredefective and worthless, then if
(07:18):
you are in interaction withsomebody else, wouldn't you
expect to see that that wouldcolor how they feel about you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:27):
And how they understand how that other
person's thinking, feeling inyour presence.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:30):
Yeah, Like, if I think I'm a piece of
shit, then I probably think youthink I'm a piece of shit, but
that doesn't mean that I thinkyou think Caitlin's a piece of
shit because I don't thinkCaitlin has defective or
worthless Right.
So that was kind of myhypothesis and spoiler alert it
was null, but I still think it'scorrect.
(07:51):
It was just the way I, the wayI measured it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:56):
How did you get interested in that?
Like what what about eitherborderline personality disorder
or mentalization or shame caughtyour attention.
What do you think is sointeresting about it?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (08:09):
Uh, I think I have the conscious
reasons and then thesubconscious reasons, the me
search reasons.
Research is me search.
Yeah, I think the consciousreasons were I dated, um, uh, a
terrible person but he wasreally exciting and interesting
and I thought that he washistrionic person.
(08:31):
I thought that he hadhistrionic PD, so I was like PDs
, and then I decided no, he's anarcissist.
So I was still like PDs, butnobody studies those two
disorders.
So I found a BPD lab and thatwas a population that was much
softer in a way than narcissism,more vulnerable, more lovable,
more I don't know.
(08:53):
It pulled me in in a way, but Ilike how activated, I like
activated people a lot of thetime, um, and so I.
I just there was somethingabout a like a good personality
disorder that was just likeinteresting, activated, dynamic,
(09:14):
um, chaotic, right, likethere's like it's just a lot to,
there's a lot to wrangle withand um, I've also loved
interpersonal relationships.
I'm really interested in howpeople get along and how they
fall in love and, um, how theyprotect themselves and defend
themselves from relationships,but also how they've, you know,
(09:36):
fall into them and surrender tothem.
So how we understand what's inanother person's mind is a
really crucial skill for that.
Um and shame is just the worst,you know.
I mean, no one likes to feelthat one.
That's the point of shame andit's a it's it's an
interpersonal emotion.
So all of these things justkind of fit together and, of
(09:58):
course, like, yeah, I can seewhere shame influences my
behavior and my reading of howother people see me, the
subconscious pathways.
I think that I have aparticular person in my life
with BPD who I think set me upto welcome in more people in my
(10:19):
life with BPD and I wound upwith a lot of people in my life
who have BPD and their ways ofrelating are just fascinating.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:31):
Yeah, it makes sense.
How do you think shame affectsthe way you mentalize?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:38):
I mean, I think that you know, shame
can be a little bit interestingto peel apart when we're talking
about schemas, because we allknow what like the state, like
state shame is like.
Like shame in the moment whenwe talk about beliefs that we
have about ourselves.
We're talking aboutinsecurities.
It's like is that shame if I,if I have an insecurity right,
(11:00):
like if I think that I'm notgood at something, does that
mean I think I'm defective?
Probably we wouldn't say that,unless it feels like I myself am
defective.
But what if it's just like Imyself am defective at being a
leader?
Would we say that that is ashameful self schema?
(11:21):
If I think that there'ssomething about my personality
that doesn't bode well towardssomething else, is that truly
shame or is that something elsethat's yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:31):
I don't know yeah, I would say that if we're
talking about shame, the emotionthat comes up when we feel like
we are something or have aquality that would get rejected
from the group right, or getostracized or kicked out of the
social group, then when you havethese schemas, in other words
(11:52):
for core beliefs, when you havethese beliefs about yourself
that are so ingrained, that areabout I am broken, I'm a bad
leader.
I have this quality, I believeI have this quality.
Bad leader, I I have thisquality, I believe I have this
quality.
But then when that belief isattached to and then people
won't like me, people will judgeme, people will reject me.
Right, like I believe that I amnot a prima ballerina.
(12:17):
Like I truly believe that Idon't think I ever will, I don't
even know that score belief butlike, but I don't feel like
yeah.
I definitely believe I'm not aprima ballerina, but I don't
have any shame around it becausethere's no one Unless like for
some weird reason, someone youknow forces me to get on the
(12:39):
stage and try a couple ofstanding on my toes, that it
doesn't affect my life, itdoesn't lead to any feelings
that I have been cut out orrejected by the people I care
about, right.
But other qualities, yes, right,like we talked about my anger
or my, you know, like different,different mechanisms I have, I
have more shame around thosecore beliefs because it's like,
(13:01):
oh, I have this quality,therefore I'm bad and people
will reject me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (13:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:05):
That's what I assume, right.
Yeah, what does that qualitylead to?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (13:11):
Right Does it lead to rejection.
I mean, I think if you have likea pervasive shame schema, then
we're talking something that'scloser to self-loathing, where
you just really believe that youyourself are just not lovable.
I wouldn't say that I sufferfrom that yourself are just not
lovable.
I wouldn't say that I sufferfrom that.
I would say that I haveinsecurities and when those
insecurities are spotlightedthen I feel shame.
(13:32):
So, for instance, I was talkingto my supervisor today and she
was like she gave me some reallynice compliments.
She said she's like you'rebetter at CPT than almost any
intern I've ever seen and Ithink your clinical insights are
excellent.
I've seen some phenomenalsessions.
This was bleed into hercompliment sandwich.
(13:55):
Um, the anti-compliment was youdon't bring enough structure to
sessions and something's keepingyou from doing that.
And that's true, like that'sdefinitely true.
I've gotten that feedbackbefore.
And she's like what do youthink that is?
And I was like I think thatwhen I'm in session I find it
really difficult to take command.
(14:15):
Sometimes I feel like if aperson doesn't take the homework
seriously, then that might meanthey don't take me seriously
and they don't think I'm helpingthem.
And then I get insecure about,like you know, leading them and
being like no, you've got to dothese Right.
So that would be an example oflike my insecurity, kind of
bringing up shame in myself andchanging how I believe my
(14:40):
patients are mentalizing aboutme Right, where I'm like, or
that changes how I mentalizeabout my patients where I kind
of like in, I mean maybe I'mcorrect, but we'll say
incorrectly, mind read, thatthey don't take me seriously and
that I think I'm they, theythink I'm useless.
So we see that like ourinsecurities often drive the way
that we think other peopleexperience us.
(15:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:06):
And we've gotten in.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (15:08):
yeah, we've gotten in tussles right
when, like you'll, like, I waslike late to a recording session
, and then you said something tome that made me upset.
But part of why it made meupset was because, like, I feel
insecure about being aresponsible, incompetent adult.
So right.
So then, like being aresponsible, incompetent adult,
so right.
So then, like my, that's my,that's my portion of the of of
the thing you know.
(15:28):
It's like, how does my shamethen?
Then it comes up and it's likeKibbe thinks that I'm all the
time an irresponsible childbecause that's who I am, that
you know.
Like it overtakes and itchanges what we think.
Shame often prevents us fromsaying, well, she was annoyed
with me in that moment.
We'll be fine in five minutes,right.
(15:48):
Instead, it creates this likeexistential crisis.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's interesting.
I know that shame for you likewe've talked about this, where
shame is one of the hot emotionsI don't know for a lot of
people, but you've expressedthat when you feel shame and you
have this weird shameexperience where, like you've
been internet trolled beforebeing on the you know there
there's like this whole level oflike online bullying that
(16:15):
you've experienced, that likeadds to the shame piece where,
when you feel shame, I've seenyou the most shut down, like
different emotions You're ableto like kind of stay in the
moment, but shame is one whereyou really go inward.
and yeah, I mean shame andempathy is really just an
interesting topic, because ifyou feel shame in that moment, I
(16:38):
get it like it makes totalsense that that's a blocker of
being able to empathize andattune to someone else's
emotions, because you're, likein a time where you probably
should, right, it's like in thatmoment you think that person
hates me, that person's going toreject me, um, and then you
have all these defenses aroundit, whether it's like an anger
(16:59):
of like fine, I don't need thatperson.
They're, they're terribleanyway, I don't need them.
Cut them out, yeah, I'll rejectyou before you reject me.
Or you're just shame can likepull you inwards.
All you're doing is thinkingabout yourself, which means that
you're not there with thatother person, right?
So it really is like it's a.
(17:19):
It's a.
It's an emotion that's supposedto keep you in the group, right
, like keep you with the cavemanpack, but when it gets so
dysregulated and high, it itmakes you actually sometimes act
in ways that lead to rejection.
We'll talk about this whereit's like, you know, when people
(17:40):
like it feels so ashamed, thatthey tend to lie right or they
tend to get angry and mean tothe other person, which then
does lead to the rejection,right.
So it's just such aninteresting navigating, you know
.
The kind of the interpersonaleffects are just really
interesting.
You're smiling Go for it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (17:59):
Well, it's just always like these
emotions.
Are these like evolutionarytools that were given to us?
Like these emotions, are theselike evolutionary tools that
were given to us, these sort of,you know, primitive little
systems, but they go so haywireso quickly.
I mean, yeah, shame is supposedto keep us in a group.
It's supposed to tell us shutthe fuck up and go hide and stop
doing what you're doing.
(18:21):
Like let people forget about youfor a while and then you can
kind of creep out and rejoinsociety.
But all it has to do is beturned up a little too loud and
it turns into anger andaggression and all sorts of
behaviors that are likely to getyou rejected.
And that's what people with BPDfind.
They're getting rejected allthe time.
Their shame is so high.
It's not, you can't hold it,and I can talk about why that is
.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:42):
Yeah, I want to hear that.
I just just having a thoughtabout how much this whole thing
of shame and lack of empathymight be such a driver of what's
going on globally and socially,right, I mean, it's just like,
if you think about there's somuch of like I'm forgotten, like
(19:03):
my group is forgotten by thegovernment.
My group is, is or I'm not seenpublicly, I'm not represented.
I, whether you're from you know, like a conservative middle of
the country or from a different,you know, minority group, right
.
Like we're all angry that wefeel so rejected and dismissed
that it's just shutting off allof our empathy towards anyone
(19:25):
else who's different than us.
So just, I was just thinkingabout how like relevant this
topic actually is right now.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (19:32):
Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, this is
what the dumbest thing theDemocrats did was they shamed
the majority class yeah,majority and the most powerful
ones.
Like what were you thinking?
Don't kick out men, so anyways.
But yeah, I mean, we see aloneliness epidemic and a crisis
of purpose and an opiate opiumaddiction.
(19:52):
It's like opiates addictionthat is probably embedded in.
Like who am I?
Is there any point to me?
Nobody cares about me, no one'ssticking up for me.
Like fuck me then, so fuck youtoo.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:06):
Um yeah, yeah , lack of shutdown of empathy
all around.
So what did you?
Okay, wait.
First I want to hear how youactually like studied this,
because you did actually like areally good job.
You don't have to go deep intothe hairy methods that you don't
want to, but you did a reallycool study.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (20:28):
Well, thank you.
So when you do research, youdon't want to reinvent the wheel
.
So I went and looked atmentalization measures that have
already been used a lot and Ifound one that had been used a
lot in BPD research and then onethat had been used in psychosis
research that I used as well.
So basically what I was sayingis, all the existing measures
(20:53):
were asking people to mentalizeabout other unrelated people,
and I'm not the only person whohas proposed turning this around
and making it what we callself-referential.
So I am now mentalizing aboutKibbe and me.
That's self-referential.
It references the self versusother referential meaning.
I'm talking about Kibbe andCaitlin.
So I took an existing measureand then copied it but changed
(21:17):
it into self-referential, so itwas like Tom and Vicky.
Now it's Tom and you.
Ooh, like very simple switch.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:25):
What were the tasks?
What did they ask people to do?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:30):
The social faux pas task is like
Helen is at her friend Sarah'shouse, she spills coffee on her
dress and says Oops, I was goingto wear this to your party on
Saturday, but it was a surpriseparty.
Did Helen say something sheshouldn't have or something that
was awkward?
(21:50):
And then it's like why do youthink Helen said it?
What do you think she wasfeeling when she's?
It's like that kind of you know.
So they ask you about like asocial faux pas, and then, like
you have to mentalize about whythis may have happened and like
was it intentional, right?
Um, and the hinting task is theone from psychosis research.
They had made aself-referential one, so that's
(22:10):
why I took it, and then I madean other referential one that
could be used for onlinepurposes.
But it's the same concept.
It's a vignette and onecharacter gives the other one a
hint.
Like Tom goes over to Jack'shouse to study.
When he gets there he saysbird's cold outside.
What could he mean by this?
And the hint is basicallysupposed to be like I'd like to
(22:34):
warm up before we start studying, or like can you hand me that?
I?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:36):
was like sounds pretty clear to me.
I don't know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (22:45):
When I looked at the hinting task I was
like, uh, I might get resultssuggesting that I under
mentalize, because I tend totake people at their word.
Once you get the gist of thetask, you can keep going with it
.
But I mean, this is the thing,right, these like measures
aren't amazing and yet it's whatthe research relies on and
that's what you find in researcha lot.
This is why when people saylike I believe science, like
that's fantastic, but you haveto understand that science
itself, like like my study, isgoing to say there's no
(23:06):
difference between other andself-referential, because they
got the null hypothesis.
But that doesn't mean it's true.
It means that the measures Iused, that the rest of the
literature has been using for solong, might have some flaws in
them.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:28):
And they might not like pick up things.
That's an aside, Right, it's,it's really it's.
It's really tough to captureeverything, all your social
skills, by like reading thatdescription online and then for
you to answer the question of,like what could Tom be thinking,
but was there?
Were there right answers or wasit just?
Was it just about seeing howyou answered?
Like how, how does one do wellon those tests?
There's a right answer.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbul (23:47):
Multiple choice.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (23:50):
Yeah, all right, yeah, so that's
whatever.
But we found that shame wasimportant and that shame
explains some group differences.
We found that people with BPDare worse at mentalizing overall
, even worse than people withjust like general high
psychopathology, so people whoare depressed or anxious, you
know, or have some otherdisorder.
We found that, like, if youhave BPD you've got even greater
(24:13):
deficits and that state shame.
So the shame you feel in themoment can collapse those group
differences.
So suddenly it's shame thatexplains things, not diagnosis.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:26):
So what do you make of those findings?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (24:29):
What do they mean?
I think that we need differentparadigms and ways of measuring
the question, but it means thatthe way you feel in the moment,
if you're super ashamed, right,like, of course that's going to
give you deficits it's going todo the same thing we were just
talking about.
I think that there are reasonsI would like to do.
(24:51):
Well, I would like somebodyelse to do analyses that show
whether that like shame processis specific to BPD, like whether
they are more likely, whetherit's more likely that their
deficits are coming from shameversus other groups.
And it would make sense becausehere I'll go into the develop
model, if that's okay, thedevelopmental model.
So basically, the idea is theway mentalization develops is
(25:13):
when you're a little wee baby.
You come out of the womb andyou have some tools, and those
tools are your emotions and theway you express them.
And you have no idea who youare yet because you're a baby,
your brain is mush and you knowyou don't have a prefrontal
cortex.
That's very online at thispoint and you don't have a lot
of reflective capacity.
(25:34):
So you're basically this littlemoldable, squishy, little
screaming thing and yourenvironment, I mean you have
lots of instincts and embeddeddata and everything.
But your environment is goingto do a lot to shape that and
develop it.
And if that's the case, yourearly tools are pretty important
and they're pretty important inhelping you make sense of who
(25:55):
you are and what's going on inthis big scary place you've just
, you know, shot out of yourmother into.
So if you are a baby and as yougrow up you know you cry, you
cry, cry, cry and your mom comesand holds you and says, oh you
look so sad, I'm so sorry you'resad, you know, like, let me rub
(26:15):
your back, let me rub your back, let's sit here in this Then
you're going to understand thatwhen you cry and make whatever
face you were making at your mom, and maybe if you cry in a
particular way, that that meansyou're sad.
And now you have a word to putto this particular experience.
And that when you're sad, youcan reliably expect, if this
(26:36):
happens over and over again, ifyour mom keeps comforting you,
that like that's going to makepeople want to take care of you
and comfort you and conveniently, that is what sadness is
designed to do.
So you are getting basically,like, correct, appropriate
social feedback for thatemotional experience that you're
having and when you do thatwith all of your other emotions
and you're like, oh, okay, likenow I'm angry.
(26:58):
And then your mom helps youmake sense of why you were angry
.
It made you angry when you gotpushed over on the playground
and now you want to, you know,yell at him.
Okay, I get it Like, yeah, Iunderstand, frustrate me too,
right, you get all of thisfeedback that suggests what
you're thinking is normal, itmakes sense, it makes sense to
(27:20):
other people and it can reliablyget the same kind of feedback
from other people.
And when you can get the samefeedback from other people, then
you can start to makeconsistent sense of who you are.
If I take ballet lessons and myteachers all consistently tell
me holy shit, you should be aprima ballerina when you grow up
, then I start thinking I'm aballerina, that's something
(27:40):
about me, that's true.
Everybody else thinks it's true.
I have evidence suggesting it'strue.
So that's something I'm goingto identify with.
If everyone tells you you'resmart, if everyone tells you
you're beautiful, et cetera, nowof course you're going to start
to get some people who don'tsay that you know, like, um,
I've been consistently told thatI have high emotional
intelligence and that I shouldbe a therapist.
(28:02):
But last week a Redditor said Ihave extremely low EQ and they
can't even fathom how I couldever be a mental health
professional, right, if I didn'thave an identity shaped around
this.
I wouldn't be able to buffermyself against that.
I would be very and I wasconfused right myself.
(28:22):
Against that, I would be veryand I was confused, right,
because it's that was a verystrong claim.
But the problem is now we'retaking a different kid who comes
out and they scream and theyget hit.
I'm like, oh my God, okay, so Iguess when I'm upset, I get hit
, but then another time whenthey scream, they get cuddled,
and so, like this is weird.
Okay, sometimes when I scream,I get hit.
(28:45):
Sometimes I get cuddled.
Third time when I scream, theyget cuddled, and so, like this
is weird.
Okay, sometimes when I scream,I get hit.
Sometimes I get cuddled.
Third time when I scream,everybody ignores me.
Okay, what is the screamingthing I'm doing?
This kid is going to be like,when I scream, no one's helping
me understand what's happening.
No one's telling me it'sbecause I'm hungry or because
I'm cold or because I want tohug, like, and they're giving me
really weird social feedback.
I can't predict what happenswhen I have this emotional
experience.
So what is this experience?
I don't know.
I don't know what it is I'mfeeling.
(29:07):
I don't know why it is I dothese things.
It's just something in me saysscream, and then I scream and
then I'm hit and sometimes I'msoothed and sometimes I'm
ignored.
So I don't know whether Ishould keep doing this or not
And'm not getting likeconsistent social feedback.
So okay, now this person'ssaying that I'm a good at ballet
, but this person says I'm badat ballet and I don't have any
kind of core place from which Ican know exactly who I am and
(29:29):
why I feel the things and whatI'm feeling.
And so who knows if I'm good atballet?
I don't know.
I guess I'll just believewhatever somebody says to me in
the moment, like it's the, it'sthe best thing I've got to hold
onto is just whatever you tellme I am or who you tell me I am
right at this very moment, causeI can't.
There's no predictive qualityto it.
It's going to change nextmoment.
So I guess then I'll believethat.
(29:51):
And so now you have the personwith BPD, having this develop,
you know this identity likeproblem where they're just like
I don't know who I am.
And if you don't know who youare, it's really hard to
mentalize, because you don'tknow what your own emotions are
saying.
How are you supposed to knowwhat other people's emotions are
(30:11):
saying and how are you supposedto know how other people feel
about you when you're notgetting any kind of consistent
information?
And so you're just this kind oflike big ball of confusion?
And the other thing is thatsometimes it's a really bad idea
to mentalize, because if you'rea little kid whose mom or dad
abuses them and doesn't take anygood care of them and is really
(30:32):
chaotic, then what are yougoing to do?
Think, yeah, it must mean theydon't love me, they don't care
about me.
Okay, yeah, I guess.
Okay, like, that's not a good,that's not a helpful thing to
believe, necessarily, and soblocking mentalizing can be
adaptive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:47):
Yeah, there's also this, this other layer
that the mentalizationliterature adds on to to this,
like what you were describing asa nice, like bio-social theory
of um, how important it is forcaregivers and the people around
you to help you make sense ofyour own emotions right and help
you regulate.
And the piece that thementalization group Bateman and
(31:10):
Fonagy talk about is thatthey're at some point in the
kid's development they get theidea that you're, they're
looking at your, they're lookingat their mom and their mom has
a picture of you in their mindLike it's not just oh, you're
(31:30):
sad, it's oh, you're sad, youare sad.
And then there's this we're sogood socially that there's an
understanding that, oh, I'm ababy, I'm sad, but mama is not
sad, mama's seeing me, oh, she'sthinking about me.
Wait a minute, I'm thinkingabout mom.
(31:50):
Right, it's crazy to to alsosee it happen with my toddler,
where there is this like thisbeautiful connection with the
baby, where you are one likethat kind of level where
emotions are shared and we're init together and babies until I
think that, like two or three,they don't have an idea that you
(32:15):
are separate from their mom.
Yeah, until this, theperspective taking theory of
mind, part of your brain startsto develop around, I think, age
three, where they go.
Oh wait, I have a separatebrain and you have a separate
brain and I'm sad, but you don'tseem to be sad.
Actually, I feel like the worldis ending right now because I'm
(32:37):
upset and probably hungry, butyou seem calm.
So I'm going to feel safebecause I'm going to assume that
you also have a perspective onit that I don't have, right?
So that's like such animportant part of our social
emotions is that we developedand really evolved uniquely to
(32:57):
be a bunch of brains together.
Right, I have a mind and I havemy own feelings and you guys
have a whole bunch, and mysurvival relies on trying to
figure out what you guys aredoing and thinking and feeling,
but also how to communicate whatI need to you guys, and then we
all coordinate this whole dancetogether of minds and feelings.
Right, we're all one, but we'reall kind of separate.
(33:19):
So that autonomy, thatseparation, is something that
they think that people with BPDdon't have.
It's like.
It's like being stuck like atoddler right when they I watch
it and my mom I watch it andlike people who have like severe
emotions, dysregulation.
They're like oh, I'm mad andyou hate me and I'd be like no,
I, I meant something else, youmisinterpreted.
(33:41):
They're like no, that'simpossible, because what I think
and feel was the whole worldRight.
And so it has this narcissistic, self-absorbed quality because
their emotions are the onlything that matter.
But the theory is because theyjust don't realize that that's
not true, that other people canfeel different things than you,
(34:03):
which is so basic.
But think about what the worldwould be like if you felt like
your emotion was literally theonly thing that existed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (34:11):
Yeah, I mean, if you and get crazy
feedback to your emotions, thenit's difficult to make sense of
what that other person isthinking or feeling, I guess.
And so how can you create amental representation of
(34:34):
yourself in their mind?
Like for something to makesense, there has to be a through
line.
There has to be some aspect ofconsistency.
So if you get crazy chaoticstuff, you're not going to have
a through line.
If you get intensely negativestuff, you will have a through
line, but it will be deeplyshameful.
I am hated and I think.
(34:54):
I think people with BPD oftenget one of those two outcomes.
Um, people with BPD often getone of those two outcomes.
Did your, did Jackson learn howto say daddy before mama?
You know that's.
Do you know why that theory?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:09):
It was what you were just talking about.
Because, like, because the herecognized the babies, recognize
a dad, a separate beings,faster than mom.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:18):
I know it's it's.
It sucks because, because,because, like there, when he was
developing autonomy, he wasespecially like like nasty or
annoying to me.
I'm like really nice to Alex,like I would.
He would be working onsomething and I come in and I
would like say hello or say andhe'd be like no, go away, mama.
(35:39):
And at first I was like, but Ilearned that it's because that
they just they're learningautonomy, so they need to feel
that separateness and they likedo things to push you away Right
, Like this big no phase whenthey're two, like no, no, no,
Just because you have somethingto brush your teeth or eat
something, and even if they'regoing to, they just want to say
no, to be like I'm a differentperson and I'm going to make
(36:01):
this decision.
I'm going to eat that, but notbecause you told me it's really
fun.
It's a really fun time.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (36:07):
Fronege also talked and this kind of
confused me, but he talks abouthow people with BPD will often
need to create an emotionalexperience in another person
that they can see out in theworld in order for them to make
sense of what's happeninginwardly.
Have you heard this?
(36:29):
Like what?
No, that's cool.
Like if I'm feeling panic, butI can't own that because I don't
, I don't have a way of makingsense of my own emotions.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:32):
I might call you and be like we need to talk
and then hang up To make, tomake me panic, yeah, to be like
oh, it's real now that someoneelse feels it, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (36:42):
That's interesting.
I don't know if research backsthat up, but, um, I was reading
the mentalization basedtreatment handbook and I was
talking about that, so, um, Ican also just imagining Jackson
being like I'm mad, she's me,let's make her mad, and then I
can see it out in the real worldand I can play with it and
understand it.
You know what I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:00):
Yeah, I mean it just feels like mentalization
and developing mentalizationgood empathy skills is really
about learning that we haveedges.
Right Like if you just feellike you're just like a bunch of
emotion and we don't have edges, we don't have borders between
me and you.
Oh my God, talk aboutregulation.
I mean, how do you even managea feeling that doesn't have any
(37:21):
boundaries, literally so?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:24):
yeah, I had a friend who would talk
about.
She's like I can't even tellwho I am unless somebody's
mirroring for me, like unlessI'm in front of somebody talking
, and that's why she would ventat me so much and spew so much
towards me, because she's justlike I have to, like somebody
has to witness this, or I can'texperience it, or something like
that.
Um yeah, and of course that's ahuge burden on the loved one.
(37:47):
So it's, it's a problem.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:50):
What do you think is going to happen with
all these kids who now, thesekids these days but, like you
know, who are seeing themselvesin videos and photos on their
phone, all like since they werebabies?
Instagram, like all the socialmedia, where you're literally
seeing yourself as an externalrepresentation all the time?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (38:14):
uh, I don't know.
I mean, I grew up looking atpictures of myself.
I'm more concerned about thefact that they're not being
mirrored by real people andthey're going to be mirrored by
AI, and AI is going to tell themwho they are.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:29):
By the internet trolling right Like you
know, it's we.
The social feedback we get nowis even worse because you don't
even get real mentalization.
You don't really get howeveryone was thinking and
feeling.
You get like this, reallyone-sided bias.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (38:53):
Like you suck, you're terrible, right
, this like almost like drive-byshooting of emotion, of social
feedback.
Reddit was so hard for me tolet go of because I knew that at
a certain point they were nolonger reacting to me.
They were reacting to an avatarof me that was made up of a lot
of false memories that peopleon Reddit created and like
attached to me, and yet it wasstill so hard to relinquish like
(39:14):
, no, that's that's me, that'sme they don't like.
It's me that they're um, youknow that's me they don't like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:24):
It's me that they're um.
You know I don't stronglyidentify with the public version
of you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (39:28):
Like you know, it's fun.
Now I'm like having this metamoment where I'm like maybe this
is what it's a little bit whatthe bp experience is.
I don't know what the publicversion of me is.
I don't.
I didn't receive consistentfeedback, so I would put out a
part of myself, but I don't knowwhat that consistent whole
story that was telling.
(39:48):
Because when you're an adultand like a full fledged person
with a lot of angles and nuancesand you know colors and shades
and whatever it's like, you justput out a two sentence caption
with a picture on Instagram andthen you do it again and again
and again and again.
Like who is that person?
I don't know.
It's hard to see that person asseparate from myself, but of
(40:11):
course, other people aren'treally knowing me from that.
They're only knowing littlesnapshots.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:17):
I mean, I only had a taste of what you
experienced, but I I posted thatpost about, like the pov reel
about um, a story and asituation that I've heard from
many different people and peoplein the cool line community,
where um, it's peop, it's womenwho are noticing that their
(40:39):
husbands are getting moredepressed and drinking more,
getting more withdrawn and tendto go on YouTube channels that
are more right wing, right Likethe manosphere, at the masculine
kind of, and this was from bothsides of the pockets and I said
POV, your husband is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right, and
(40:59):
this is not my life.
This is not what Alex like, it'snot me at all.
It literally was like I made ameme but like you used me as the
video and put the words overand getting like so much
internet, like flack, so manyconservative men saying awful
things, like you know well, ifmy wife looked like you, I'd
(41:21):
drink too.
And like you know well, if mywife looked like you, I'd drink
too.
And like you know you liberalwomen are the problem and you
know like there was a level oflike this is so silly and this
is not even me, but you can'thelp but take it personally, and
also, I guess maybe there's apart of the shame that makes it
(41:42):
even worse when you can't, whenyou can't defend yourself at all
, like when you, when it'sliterally like people with none
of his usernames saying all thisawful things to you um, it did.
It doesn't make any differenceto like, write back to them or
defend yourself in anymeaningful way, because it's
(42:02):
just kind of like, you know,it's just like insults raining
down.
It's not a one-on-oneinteraction.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:08):
So I wonder, I don't know, I'm just,
I mean, look just like a personwith bpd cries and one day
they're hit with little hittingand the next day they're hit
with screaming and the third daythey're hit with comfort.
It's like when you go out oninstagram after the bachelor and
you post something and you geta thousand people telling you,
(42:28):
oh my god, you're the mostamazing person ever.
But then you get 300 peopletelling you you're pretentious,
trash and you lied about gettinga phd and you're so stupid and
you use such stupid words andyou're not that hot and what
else.
You're back and, uh, whatever,you're just like.
(42:48):
Well, that's pretty fuckingcompelling.
Like I mean, a thousand peopleseem to like me, but 300 people
is a pretty big number, and likethey really hate me.
So I don't know, I don't know ifthis piece of me that I, that's
like morsel right of me that Ileft out in the internet, I
don't know if that's a goodthing or a bad thing.
I don't know if it's a likething or a dislike thing.
It's both, and so how am Isupposed to make sense of that?
Okay, I'll try another one.
(43:09):
Same thing happens.
Fuck, I don't know.
Right, it's like hard to it'shard to conceptualize of what
that is.
You're, in person, like I'vegot a whole history of evidence
of people loving me andaffirming me and experiencing me
in a particular way, and thenthat kind of self-esteem comes
back.
But online you are.
You're putting out a differentpersona.
(43:30):
You're just putting littlemorsels of yourself out there
and people are eating it andsome of them are spitting it
back out and some of them areenjoying it, and you're just
like I don't know, know what, Idon't know how to make sense of
this.
And so, of course, like it'sdifficult then to discredit the
negative information you get,because you don't know if it's
(43:51):
good so are you saying?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:55):
this is what happens with people with
borderline personality disorderis that they just have such a
difficult time understanding whothey are and having a grounded
sense of themselves that shamecan be just overwhelming.
Kind of like what you'retalking about here, where you're
like a buffer against shame islike, oh, I've had a lot of
(44:15):
experiences where people lovedme, but if they just literally
have nothing to go on, thenshame might be just too much.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:22):
Well, yeah, because how, if you have
nothing to go on, if you trulydon't know whether you're a good
person or a likable person orwhatever, and someone says you
suck, you're, you're not goingto have a lot to push back on,
you're just gonna be like, ohGod, I suck, like I'm bad,
(44:48):
because I don't have a wholeback history of evidence telling
me otherwise.
I better believe this becausewhat, like?
Why wouldn't I right?
Like that experience of shameis way, way, way different than
being able to say, well, thisperson doesn't like me in this
moment yeah, and it's alsointeresting that people with bpd
tend to hypermentalize right,it's like this overthinking?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:08):
I mean, tell me more about hypermentalization
.
I understood it, as they tendto have too many thoughts.
They tend to read into otherpeople's thoughts and feelings
more than they actually exist.
Is that like overthinking other?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbul (45:23):
people's thoughts Essentially, but you
can have just one single thought.
That's hypermentalized.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:27):
So I what does that mean?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:30):
It means that I make a mentalized
inference for which there is notsufficient evidence.
So if you frown at me and I sayshe hates me, that's a single
thought.
But it's hypermentalized.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:45):
Oh, I see, I see, but like all mentalization
has that a little bit right.
Like we don't have all theevidence but we get.
We're making a lot of guessesof what people are thinking and
feeling and if it's accurate,it's accurate right, like well,
right, so no one says that hypermentalization is inaccurate.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:04):
And so this is all this measurement.
Difficulty is like yeah, you'reright, like we are all making
inferences.
Some of us are are makinginferences with more reasonable
evidence, I suppose.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:17):
Um.
So people with BVD, because oftheir shame, tend to, um, just
make more interpretations andguesses about what other people
are thinking and feeling justmake more interpretations and
guesses about what other peopleare thinking and feeling.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:33):
They make more, not necessarily more
in terms of quantity they're not.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:35):
I mean, they're just making guesses
without evidence.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:38):
Yeah, but they tend to be negative and
like more.
But I mean, I suppose you couldhyper-mentalize in the opposite
direction.
You know, we know, that peoplewith BPD split about themselves.
Sometimes they think they'rethe coolest shit that's ever
been Right.
And so in that name, Ihypermentalize and say this
person loves me.
But we don't typically talkabout that in the literature.
It's more like negativehypermentalization.
And yes, it could be correct.
(46:59):
Like I could.
Correctly, I could behypermentalizing and say that
you hate me and, lo and behold,you actually do hate me, but
there was just no evidence forit and I don't know if they do
this because of shame.
When we included shame as acovariate, the group differences
disappeared.
I would imagine it has a lot todo with shame, but it also, I
think, fundamentally is just apretty good survival strategy if
(47:22):
you grow up in abuse.
If you grow up in abuse, youwant to make more wrong guesses
in a particular way, like moretype one errors versus type two.
It's amazing.
I've been six years in aprogram and I can never remember
which is which.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:37):
But if I want , to err on the side of caution.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (47:41):
You want to err on the side of
caution?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:42):
Yeah, no-transcript tends to hyper
(48:14):
mentalize or just you know, fromextreme shame, like it
sometimes feels like you are.
You are speaking on behalf of acharacter that that person has
made up for you, Like you'rebeing.
That person is seeing things inyou or making guesses about you
(48:34):
that you're like.
This is not.
I don't know where this iscoming from, and then you run
the risk of gaslighting them bysaying no, that's not true.
For example, like one of my bigfights with my mom is that I
said some things that sheinterpreted as like really
negative.
I said, maybe it's the fact youhave on people, and she
(48:55):
interpreted that as like I wassaying something super negative
and I wasn't.
And then she interpreted thenext part of the conversation as
you're not allowed to seeJackson ever again, my son.
The next part of theconversation as you're not
allowed to see Jackson everagain, my son, Even though I had
invited her over to see himthat day a couple times and I
(49:16):
remember it was such a weirdexperience to stand next to her
and she was like, wow, you toldme you never, you don't need, I
can never see my grandson again.
And I was like let me show youthe, the, the text messages
where I invite you over, and shejust kind of shook her head and
was like oh well, never mind.
And so I feel like I was in anargument when I wasn't even in
the argument, right, Like shewas fighting against someone.
(49:41):
That wasn't me like accusing meof thinking or feeling or
intending things that I didn'twasn't me like accusing me of
thinking or feeling or intendingthings that I didn't, and I
like in that scenario, like howdo you defend yourself?
All I could say is is I didn'tsay those things.
That was incorrect what youfelt and thought.
But yet that's also kind ofinvalidating to her experience,
which she just felt so rejectedand ashamed that it just like
(50:05):
hovered everything that she wasseeing.
So it kind of leaves you in abind as a loved one.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:10):
Well, this is.
It's just so funny Cause I wasthinking like I, you know, I
feel pressure to do what you'redoing on social media and start
making these videos andeverything.
But I feel very nervous aboutthat for a number of reasons,
but one of them has to do with alittle um card that I saw at
the VA.
That was called signs ofgaslighting and it was quotes
like that never happened orthat's not true, or you know,
(50:33):
like these things.
And I was like, yeah, okay,these are signs of gaslighting.
They're also signs of somebodywho's defending themselves
against something that didn'tfucking happen.
Right, like, yeah, if somebodyis saying that's what you said
and that's not what you said,because that's and that's not
what you intended, or whatever,like you can't call that
(50:56):
gaslighting, but they're goingto feel gaslit, and so now we
have a problem and it's one ofthe reasons why gaslighting is
being flung around all the time.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:07):
Yeah, and the other thing is that, yeah, I
mean it's Sorry, you talk.
No, go for it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:14):
Well, I was just going to say.
The other thing is thathypermentalization can become a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
If I tell you over and overagain that you don't like me and
you don't care about me, you'regoing to get fed up and stop
liking me.
And now I'm correctlymentalizing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:31):
Right these core beliefs and schemas we have
such a drive to confirm them?
Right?
If I feel like no one loves me,I'm going to act in ways that
kind of push other people toreject me and not love me, Just
because confirming these beliefsabout ourselves sometimes feel
a lot more organizing than justbeing like whoa, everything I
know about myself.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:52):
It might not be real right, right,
it's a rat's nest and it's supersad it is.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:01):
I think that this is where um, the dbt, um
skills of learning that feelingsaren't facts, really come in
nicely Because, gosh, like Iwish I wish so many people
learned this.
Where it's like, yeah, youmight feel ashamed, you might
feel like my daughter's notletting me see my grandson ever
(52:21):
again, but that might be theshame talking and that might be
the shame.
And some people, feelings havereally shaped the way they think
, right, like some people go oh,I feel ashamed, but I but I
know this is not, this is justthe way I feel right now.
I don't I don't think everyonehates me, but some people feel
(52:42):
the shame and go oh, everyonehates me, and that's true and
there's no other possibility oftruth, right?
So you know?
And DBT is like learning thatlike feelings aren't always
facts, like feelings can reallyshape your thoughts and the way
you see things, but like that'snot always true.
Yeah, I just wish.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:05):
Well, I think that's crucial.
I think another important piecehere is, like another covariate
that I had in my study, whichis it's kind of like it's
another factor that kind ofcomes in and might explain some
of the differences you find socovariate was just a shameful
schema Like so how much do ourcore beliefs explain this?
And it was significant withhypermentalization.
(53:26):
But I think what's probablyhappening more is that if you
have this schema, you're morelikely to feel state shame, and
then that state shame is what'sgoing to screw up the
mentalization.
Um and so, but being able toname like okay, I've got this
core schema that says that Ithink I'm worthless.
Does this help me any more inlife?
(53:46):
Talk with your therapist, yes,no, maybe.
So, okay, not really, it's notreally helping me.
Then, when you're in a situationbeing able to name that okay, I
can tell I'm making anassumption that this person
doesn't like me.
And I know about myself that Ihave this core belief that I'm
unlovable and defective andworthless.
So might this be influencingthings?
(54:09):
And actually, that same friendthat I talked about, she caught
herself a couple of times andshe was like hey, um, I just did
this thing where I read whatyou said in a particular way,
but I'm trying to ask now,instead of making assumptions,
did you mean that you don't likeme?
I was like, no, that's not whatI meant by that.
I'm so glad you asked, right,like you caught.
(54:29):
You caught the schema.
So for me it's like when I seepatients, I have to know I have
an incompetent schema when I amnot insisting on them doing
homework.
Is this maybe that schema atwork?
And do I need to catch it andtry to do the opposite?
Right, like take a chance onmyself and then understand, like
(54:53):
, embedded in that is, myfeelings are not facts, they're
telling me information.
Some of this information mightbe useful, some might not be
useful, but I got to slow downand rifle through it and really
think about it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:00):
Yeah, these are all these metacognitive or
mindfulness abilities to peopleto step back and see, like, oh,
wow, look at this belief that Ihave that's affecting the way I
see things will then affect theway I feel.
Like I have this belief, I'mbroken, which will make me think
that someone hates me orthey're going to reject me or
think badly of me, which willmake me feel really ashamed,
(55:20):
which will make me shut down.
So it's just, I've noticed thatsince we've did our episode on
self-hatred, where I noticed howmuch of my core schemas are
negative, I'm like going aroundthe day being like wow, so many
of my thoughts are trying toconfirm or like check that.
Like are they better than meand why am I not doing enough?
(55:42):
Why am I not better?
Why am I like what haven't Idone yet?
Oh, that's not good enough.
Like just noticing that that'sa running inner dialogue all the
time it's helpful.
It's like it's kind of it'sdisorienting to watch my core
scheme, core shame schemasspinning around and around all
(56:03):
day.
But once I see it it's likekind of like seeing you know the
matrix where you're like, oh,this was all you know, a bunch
of ones and zeros Like now can.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:13):
I fly.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:13):
Like what can I, what you know what?
What now so?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:16):
that's exciting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:19):
Yeah, yeah, exciting is the word for it,
yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:25):
There is a therapy called
mentalization based therapy.
I don't know how frequentlyit's done, but I think the
general idea is that yourtherapist is going to help you
get a sense of your own andothers mentalizing based on how
they respond to like the way.
I mean you've been to atraining, so actually I'll hand
it over to you to describe Ithink we should do a whole
(56:46):
episode on that.
Oh, okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:49):
So stay tuned .
Mentalization based training.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:54):
But I think the gist is like the
therapist tries to give you whatyou missed when you were a kid
consistency of responsing,organizing Do I say responsing.
Consistency and responses.
Do I say responsing,consistency and responses,
organizing um helping you makesense of what you feel and what
other people make feeling.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:12):
But we can do a separate episode um anything
else, super interesting to tryto figure out how to develop
mentalization abilities andpeople who struggle with it
anything else, but I think it'suh wine o'clock now.
I think it's time for you tocome over and watch?
Yeah, we should watch loveisland.
(57:34):
There's the uk and the usversion, and a shout out to any
any little helpers who want usto do episodes on.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (57:43):
You know analyzing these, because we
would love to so we alwaysthink about we were going to do
the other one, the other one,the trashy one, the one where
they jeopardize theirrelationships and then cheat on
each other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:58):
It's a whole of them.
Yeah, temptation, yeah, it'slike temptation, something,
something.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:04):
Yeah, we were going to do that and
then we were like like we're aserious podcast, just kidding.
That was not what happened.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:10):
we procrastinated and then the
moment passed we're so notserious that we didn't do the
unserious episode and decided totalk about your dissertation
and said so.
If you want to hear us talkabout love island, either us or
uk, please send in yourquestions.
Send us.
You know, on the show notes youcan send us a text.
You click on that and justwrite us a message.
(58:31):
You know, I don't know, justsay hi oh my god, I'm gonna add
doctor.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:37):
I want to add my title clinical.
Yeah, I don't want to do thison air, but yeah, we're gonna
we're gonna add in in DrJacqueline Trumbull, everywhere.
So we're.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:51):
Dr Jacqueline Trumbull, and if you want to
link your dissertation to thisso people can read it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:59):
Once it's on ProQuest, people can
read it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:03):
I'll link it on the show notes.
So you should be really proud,it's a really cool study.
Proud, it's a really cool study.
It's a really cool topic.
Fame ruins everything.
Don't feel shame.
Don't do it.
You know it doesn't help do it.
When you feel shame, just shoveit down.
Feel other things still.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (59:19):
You probably want hurt people and
like it uh but yeah, but don'thurt us.
Um, instead, give us a fivestar rating on spotify and apple
podcasts so that we won't feelshame, and I will give you a
clue now about our mental status.
After you do that, it will behappy, we'll be happy we will
(59:42):
like it, we will like it andwe'll like you if you do that
okay, we like you guys, andwe'll like you if you do that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:48):
Okay, we like you guys.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (59:48):
anyway, We'll see you all next week.
Bye, Bye.
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(01:00:10):
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such approval or endorsement.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help
for Our Friends, a podcast forpeople with loved ones
struggling with mental health.
Hey, little helpers, todaywe're going to talk about my
dissertation, but I promise Iwill not drag you through a
boring description of my methodsand results.
We're just going to be focusingon the topic itself, which, for
me, was something calledmentalization and I was looking
(00:22):
specifically in borderlinepersonality disorder, was
something called mentalizationand I was looking specifically
in borderline personalitydisorder.
But to not confuse you further,I'll say that mentalization is
kind of like when we think aboutwhat is in another person's
mind or what's in our own mind.
So I'm looking at Kibbe here.
If I'm mentalizing, I'm kind oflike trying to figure out what
it is that she's thinking orfeeling, or maybe what she
(00:45):
believes about herself or theworld, and I'm using clues like
conversations we've had in thepast or the facial expressions
she's making right now or how Ifeel in her company, which is
just gross and and off-puttingand frightening.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:02):
Excuse me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (01:12):
No, which is lovely and light and
fulfilled, and I'm makinginferences about who she is
because of that.
But I could also be doing thesame thing with myself.
What am I thinking Based onthese physical sensations I'm
having?
What emotion could this be?
What might I think about afuture situation If you told me
to go jump off a rocky cliffinto the azure waters below?
(01:34):
How might I feel about thatwhen the time comes?
So it's this really, reallybroad term, and there are a
couple of terms that we use morefrequently, like empathy, and
that gets at a lot ofmentalization, but I think
mostly we'll be using the termmentalizing now.
Is that fair?
I can add a lot more to thatdefinition, but I don't want to
(01:56):
bore people.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (01:58):
Yeah, I think it's all of these different.
The big category is socialcognition, right, and it's like
what do we think, what are ourthoughts doing in social
situations and mentalization,specifically like my thought
process around what you'rethinking or what I'm thinking.
So, yeah, Cool.
Well, I'm going to get good attaking as another piece, but you
(02:21):
know, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (02:22):
Yeah, taking empathy, like all of
these words we use to describejust figuring out how another
person thinks and feels.
That's mentalizing.
What can cool in mind, help usor tell us about mentalizing?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (02:37):
Well, we got some really exciting stuff
coming up.
Um, we're not I'm notofficially supposed to be
announcing it yet but our groupis starting.
Yeah, our community group isstarting in July, so it opens up
at July 14th.
I'll be spreading the worduntil then.
So, basically, it's KulaMind.
is our platform and communityfor learning all the skills that
(03:00):
we talk about here about how tonavigate the mental illness,
personality disorders, addictionof the people in our lives,
boundary setting, how torecognize when a relationship is
getting abusive and how to setthose boundaries.
And how to take care ofyourself and how to support your
loved ones when they'restruggling, Because I know
(03:21):
there's so many pieces tosupporting a loved one with
mental illness in your life.
So, um, based on what peoplewere saying, I mean we were
doing one-on-one coaching, butwe're also now launching a group
so that more people can join,because we're running out of
spaces.
So, um, if you're interestedand want to learn more, go to
the link in the show notes or goto Kulamind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom.
(03:45):
There actually is a place whereyou could put your name on the
wait list for the group.
So, if you're interested, justcheck out the website.
You know, ask me, reach out.
You could book a free call andwe could talk about it.
Yeah, I'm really, reallyexcited for this topic because I
know that we love this topic somuch.
It has everything empathy andshame and personality disorder,
(04:09):
and how does one get so messedup when it comes to reading
someone else's emotions?
It's like such a interestingtopic for me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (04:16):
Yeah, I mean it's hyper relevant to
Cool the Mind because you'reworking with like how to help
people be more interpersonallyeffective and like care for
themselves and others when,especially when they have like
dysregulated loved ones, and wereally really need mentalization
to be able to do those things.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (04:35):
Yeah, it's one of those things where I mean
you feel it, we, you when youhave a loved one who cannot
mentalize, who just doesn't haveempathy, who doesn't take your
perspective.
It's maddening, right.
It's like this, this feelingthat you're, you don't matter or
you know, you're just like anobserver watching this person in
their own head, and it doesn'tfeel like a back and forth.
(04:57):
So mentalization, or all theseskills that we talk about, are
just so subtle but so important.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:03):
Yeah Well, you did your dissertation
on empathy, I did mine onmentalization.
I actually, when I firstapplied to the lab and
interviewed with Zach, I wastalking about my interests.
He was like, yeah, I'm notreally that interested in that
stuff, but Kimmy is oh, okay, soyeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (05:24):
Why would he be taking us?
But yeah, what tell me?
I mean, if, if you couldsummarize your dissertation
question like what you studiedin a question, and how did you
get interested in this?
Actually, I don't even know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (05:41):
Okay, how would I sum it up in a
sentence?
Um, I was basically wonderingif people with borderline
personality disorder are betterat mentalizing about other
people that are unrelated tothem than they are when they are
themselves in an interaction.
If I were to mentalize aboutyou and Caitlin hanging out and
(06:07):
thinking about how you two mighthave felt in each other's
company and what kinds of thingsyou might've talked about and
thought about, I might be better.
If I have BPD, I'd make betterat doing that than I would be if
I were mentalizing about ushanging out, you and me hanging
out and like wondering whatkinds of things you're thinking
about me and wondering whatkinds of things you might
believe about me and how youmight feel.
And the reason for that isbecause I previously studied for
(06:33):
my thesis.
I studied the role of shame inborderline personality disorder,
and the existing researchsuggests that shame is super
duper important in BPD and thatit's not just that they feel
shame frequently, but that thecore schemas, the kind of core
beliefs they have aboutthemselves, others in the world,
are really impacted by shame.
(06:55):
So I don't think it would comeas a surprise to anybody with
BPD, but a lot of core schemasaround worthlessness,
defectiveness.
I am broken.
There's something wrong with me, I am abandonable.
People don't love me.
There's you know I'm, I'mdefective.
And if you think that you aredefective and worthless, then if
(07:18):
you are in interaction withsomebody else, wouldn't you
expect to see that that wouldcolor how they feel about you?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:27):
And how they understand how that other
person's thinking, feeling inyour presence.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (07:30):
Yeah, Like, if I think I'm a piece of
shit, then I probably think youthink I'm a piece of shit, but
that doesn't mean that I thinkyou think Caitlin's a piece of
shit because I don't thinkCaitlin has defective or
worthless Right.
So that was kind of myhypothesis and spoiler alert it
was null, but I still think it'scorrect.
(07:51):
It was just the way I, the wayI measured it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (07:56):
How did you get interested in that?
Like what what about eitherborderline personality disorder
or mentalization or shame caughtyour attention.
What do you think is sointeresting about it?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (08:09):
Uh, I think I have the conscious
reasons and then thesubconscious reasons, the me
search reasons.
Research is me search.
Yeah, I think the consciousreasons were I dated, um, uh, a
terrible person but he wasreally exciting and interesting
and I thought that he washistrionic person.
(08:31):
I thought that he hadhistrionic PD, so I was like PDs
, and then I decided no, he's anarcissist.
So I was still like PDs, butnobody studies those two
disorders.
So I found a BPD lab and thatwas a population that was much
softer in a way than narcissism,more vulnerable, more lovable,
more I don't know.
(08:53):
It pulled me in in a way, but Ilike how activated, I like
activated people a lot of thetime, um, and so I.
I just there was somethingabout a like a good personality
disorder that was just likeinteresting, activated, dynamic,
(09:14):
um, chaotic, right, likethere's like it's just a lot to,
there's a lot to wrangle withand um, I've also loved
interpersonal relationships.
I'm really interested in howpeople get along and how they
fall in love and, um, how theyprotect themselves and defend
themselves from relationships,but also how they've, you know,
(09:36):
fall into them and surrender tothem.
So how we understand what's inanother person's mind is a
really crucial skill for that.
Um and shame is just the worst,you know.
I mean, no one likes to feelthat one.
That's the point of shame andit's a it's it's an
interpersonal emotion.
So all of these things justkind of fit together and, of
(09:58):
course, like, yeah, I can seewhere shame influences my
behavior and my reading of howother people see me, the
subconscious pathways.
I think that I have aparticular person in my life
with BPD who I think set me upto welcome in more people in my
(10:19):
life with BPD and I wound upwith a lot of people in my life
who have BPD and their ways ofrelating are just fascinating.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (10:31):
Yeah, it makes sense.
How do you think shame affectsthe way you mentalize?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (10:38):
I mean, I think that you know, shame
can be a little bit interestingto peel apart when we're talking
about schemas, because we allknow what like the state, like
state shame is like.
Like shame in the moment whenwe talk about beliefs that we
have about ourselves.
We're talking aboutinsecurities.
It's like is that shame if I,if I have an insecurity right,
(11:00):
like if I think that I'm notgood at something, does that
mean I think I'm defective?
Probably we wouldn't say that,unless it feels like I myself am
defective.
But what if it's just like Imyself am defective at being a
leader?
Would we say that that is ashameful self schema?
(11:21):
If I think that there'ssomething about my personality
that doesn't bode well towardssomething else, is that truly
shame or is that something elsethat's yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (11:31):
I don't know yeah, I would say that if we're
talking about shame, the emotionthat comes up when we feel like
we are something or have aquality that would get rejected
from the group right, or getostracized or kicked out of the
social group, then when you havethese schemas, in other words
(11:52):
for core beliefs, when you havethese beliefs about yourself
that are so ingrained, that areabout I am broken, I'm a bad
leader.
I have this quality, I believeI have this quality.
Bad leader, I I have thisquality, I believe I have this
quality.
But then when that belief isattached to and then people
won't like me, people will judgeme, people will reject me.
Right, like I believe that I amnot a prima ballerina.
(12:17):
Like I truly believe that Idon't think I ever will, I don't
even know that score belief butlike, but I don't feel like
yeah.
I definitely believe I'm not aprima ballerina, but I don't
have any shame around it becausethere's no one Unless like for
some weird reason, someone youknow forces me to get on the
(12:39):
stage and try a couple ofstanding on my toes, that it
doesn't affect my life, itdoesn't lead to any feelings
that I have been cut out orrejected by the people I care
about, right.
But other qualities, yes, right,like we talked about my anger
or my, you know, like different,different mechanisms I have, I
have more shame around thosecore beliefs because it's like,
(13:01):
oh, I have this quality,therefore I'm bad and people
will reject me.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (13:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (13:05):
That's what I assume, right.
Yeah, what does that qualitylead to?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (13:11):
Right Does it lead to rejection.
I mean, I think if you have likea pervasive shame schema, then
we're talking something that'scloser to self-loathing, where
you just really believe that youyourself are just not lovable.
I wouldn't say that I sufferfrom that yourself are just not
lovable.
I wouldn't say that I sufferfrom that.
I would say that I haveinsecurities and when those
insecurities are spotlightedthen I feel shame.
(13:32):
So, for instance, I was talkingto my supervisor today and she
was like she gave me some reallynice compliments.
She said she's like you'rebetter at CPT than almost any
intern I've ever seen and Ithink your clinical insights are
excellent.
I've seen some phenomenalsessions.
This was bleed into hercompliment sandwich.
(13:55):
Um, the anti-compliment was youdon't bring enough structure to
sessions and something's keepingyou from doing that.
And that's true, like that'sdefinitely true.
I've gotten that feedbackbefore.
And she's like what do youthink that is?
And I was like I think thatwhen I'm in session I find it
really difficult to take command.
(14:15):
Sometimes I feel like if aperson doesn't take the homework
seriously, then that might meanthey don't take me seriously
and they don't think I'm helpingthem.
And then I get insecure about,like you know, leading them and
being like no, you've got to dothese Right.
So that would be an example oflike my insecurity, kind of
bringing up shame in myself andchanging how I believe my
(14:40):
patients are mentalizing aboutme Right, where I'm like, or
that changes how I mentalizeabout my patients where I kind
of like in, I mean maybe I'mcorrect, but we'll say
incorrectly, mind read, thatthey don't take me seriously and
that I think I'm they, theythink I'm useless.
So we see that like ourinsecurities often drive the way
that we think other peopleexperience us.
(15:02):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:06):
And we've gotten in.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (15:08):
yeah, we've gotten in tussles right
when, like you'll, like, I waslike late to a recording session
, and then you said something tome that made me upset.
But part of why it made meupset was because, like, I feel
insecure about being aresponsible, incompetent adult.
So right.
So then, like being aresponsible, incompetent adult,
so right.
So then, like my, that's my,that's my portion of the of of
the thing you know.
(15:28):
It's like, how does my shamethen?
Then it comes up and it's likeKibbe thinks that I'm all the
time an irresponsible childbecause that's who I am, that
you know.
Like it overtakes and itchanges what we think.
Shame often prevents us fromsaying, well, she was annoyed
with me in that moment.
We'll be fine in five minutes,right.
(15:48):
Instead, it creates this likeexistential crisis.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's interesting.
I know that shame for you likewe've talked about this, where
shame is one of the hot emotionsI don't know for a lot of
people, but you've expressedthat when you feel shame and you
have this weird shameexperience where, like you've
been internet trolled beforebeing on the you know there
there's like this whole level oflike online bullying that
(16:15):
you've experienced, that likeadds to the shame piece where,
when you feel shame, I've seenyou the most shut down, like
different emotions You're ableto like kind of stay in the
moment, but shame is one whereyou really go inward.
and yeah, I mean shame andempathy is really just an
interesting topic, because ifyou feel shame in that moment, I
(16:38):
get it like it makes totalsense that that's a blocker of
being able to empathize andattune to someone else's
emotions, because you're, likein a time where you probably
should, right, it's like in thatmoment you think that person
hates me, that person's going toreject me, um, and then you
have all these defenses aroundit, whether it's like an anger
(16:59):
of like fine, I don't need thatperson.
They're, they're terribleanyway, I don't need them.
Cut them out, yeah, I'll rejectyou before you reject me.
Or you're just shame can likepull you inwards.
All you're doing is thinkingabout yourself, which means that
you're not there with thatother person, right?
So it really is like it's a.
(17:19):
It's a.
It's an emotion that's supposedto keep you in the group, right
, like keep you with the cavemanpack, but when it gets so
dysregulated and high, it itmakes you actually sometimes act
in ways that lead to rejection.
We'll talk about this whereit's like, you know, when people
(17:40):
like it feels so ashamed, thatthey tend to lie right or they
tend to get angry and mean tothe other person, which then
does lead to the rejection,right.
So it's just such aninteresting navigating, you know
.
The kind of the interpersonaleffects are just really
interesting.
You're smiling Go for it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (17:59):
Well, it's just always like these
emotions.
Are these like evolutionarytools that were given to us?
Like these emotions, are theselike evolutionary tools that
were given to us, these sort of,you know, primitive little
systems, but they go so haywireso quickly.
I mean, yeah, shame is supposedto keep us in a group.
It's supposed to tell us shutthe fuck up and go hide and stop
doing what you're doing.
(18:21):
Like let people forget about youfor a while and then you can
kind of creep out and rejoinsociety.
But all it has to do is beturned up a little too loud and
it turns into anger andaggression and all sorts of
behaviors that are likely to getyou rejected.
And that's what people with BPDfind.
They're getting rejected allthe time.
Their shame is so high.
It's not, you can't hold it,and I can talk about why that is
.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (18:42):
Yeah, I want to hear that.
I just just having a thoughtabout how much this whole thing
of shame and lack of empathymight be such a driver of what's
going on globally and socially,right, I mean, it's just like,
if you think about there's somuch of like I'm forgotten, like
(19:03):
my group is forgotten by thegovernment.
My group is, is or I'm not seenpublicly, I'm not represented.
I, whether you're from you know, like a conservative middle of
the country or from a different,you know, minority group, right
.
Like we're all angry that wefeel so rejected and dismissed
that it's just shutting off allof our empathy towards anyone
(19:25):
else who's different than us.
So just, I was just thinkingabout how like relevant this
topic actually is right now.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (19:32):
Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, this is
what the dumbest thing theDemocrats did was they shamed
the majority class yeah,majority and the most powerful
ones.
Like what were you thinking?
Don't kick out men, so anyways.
But yeah, I mean, we see aloneliness epidemic and a crisis
of purpose and an opiate opiumaddiction.
(19:52):
It's like opiates addictionthat is probably embedded in.
Like who am I?
Is there any point to me?
Nobody cares about me, no one'ssticking up for me.
Like fuck me then, so fuck youtoo.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (20:06):
Um yeah, yeah , lack of shutdown of empathy
all around.
So what did you?
Okay, wait.
First I want to hear how youactually like studied this,
because you did actually like areally good job.
You don't have to go deep intothe hairy methods that you don't
want to, but you did a reallycool study.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (20:28):
Well, thank you.
So when you do research, youdon't want to reinvent the wheel
.
So I went and looked atmentalization measures that have
already been used a lot and Ifound one that had been used a
lot in BPD research and then onethat had been used in psychosis
research that I used as well.
So basically what I was sayingis, all the existing measures
(20:53):
were asking people to mentalizeabout other unrelated people,
and I'm not the only person whohas proposed turning this around
and making it what we callself-referential.
So I am now mentalizing aboutKibbe and me.
That's self-referential.
It references the self versusother referential meaning.
I'm talking about Kibbe andCaitlin.
So I took an existing measureand then copied it but changed
(21:17):
it into self-referential, so itwas like Tom and Vicky.
Now it's Tom and you.
Ooh, like very simple switch.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (21:25):
What were the tasks?
What did they ask people to do?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (21:30):
The social faux pas task is like
Helen is at her friend Sarah'shouse, she spills coffee on her
dress and says Oops, I was goingto wear this to your party on
Saturday, but it was a surpriseparty.
Did Helen say something sheshouldn't have or something that
was awkward?
(21:50):
And then it's like why do youthink Helen said it?
What do you think she wasfeeling when she's?
It's like that kind of you know.
So they ask you about like asocial faux pas, and then, like
you have to mentalize about whythis may have happened and like
was it intentional, right?
Um, and the hinting task is theone from psychosis research.
They had made aself-referential one, so that's
(22:10):
why I took it, and then I madean other referential one that
could be used for onlinepurposes.
But it's the same concept.
It's a vignette and onecharacter gives the other one a
hint.
Like Tom goes over to Jack'shouse to study.
When he gets there he saysbird's cold outside.
What could he mean by this?
And the hint is basicallysupposed to be like I'd like to
(22:34):
warm up before we start studying, or like can you hand me that?
I?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (22:36):
was like sounds pretty clear to me.
I don't know.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (22:45):
When I looked at the hinting task I was
like, uh, I might get resultssuggesting that I under
mentalize, because I tend totake people at their word.
Once you get the gist of thetask, you can keep going with it
.
But I mean, this is the thing,right, these like measures
aren't amazing and yet it's whatthe research relies on and
that's what you find in researcha lot.
This is why when people saylike I believe science, like
that's fantastic, but you haveto understand that science
itself, like like my study, isgoing to say there's no
(23:06):
difference between other andself-referential, because they
got the null hypothesis.
But that doesn't mean it's true.
It means that the measures Iused, that the rest of the
literature has been using for solong, might have some flaws in
them.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:28):
And they might not like pick up things.
That's an aside, Right, it's,it's really it's.
It's really tough to captureeverything, all your social
skills, by like reading thatdescription online and then for
you to answer the question of,like what could Tom be thinking,
but was there?
Were there right answers or wasit just?
Was it just about seeing howyou answered?
Like how, how does one do wellon those tests?
There's a right answer.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbul (23:47):
Multiple choice.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (23:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (23:50):
Yeah, all right, yeah, so that's
whatever.
But we found that shame wasimportant and that shame
explains some group differences.
We found that people with BPDare worse at mentalizing overall
, even worse than people withjust like general high
psychopathology, so people whoare depressed or anxious, you
know, or have some otherdisorder.
We found that, like, if youhave BPD you've got even greater
(24:13):
deficits and that state shame.
So the shame you feel in themoment can collapse those group
differences.
So suddenly it's shame thatexplains things, not diagnosis.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (24:26):
So what do you make of those findings?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (24:29):
What do they mean?
I think that we need differentparadigms and ways of measuring
the question, but it means thatthe way you feel in the moment,
if you're super ashamed, right,like, of course that's going to
give you deficits it's going todo the same thing we were just
talking about.
I think that there are reasonsI would like to do.
(24:51):
Well, I would like somebodyelse to do analyses that show
whether that like shame processis specific to BPD, like whether
they are more likely, whetherit's more likely that their
deficits are coming from shameversus other groups.
And it would make sense becausehere I'll go into the develop
model, if that's okay, thedevelopmental model.
So basically, the idea is theway mentalization develops is
(25:13):
when you're a little wee baby.
You come out of the womb andyou have some tools, and those
tools are your emotions and theway you express them.
And you have no idea who youare yet because you're a baby,
your brain is mush and you knowyou don't have a prefrontal
cortex.
That's very online at thispoint and you don't have a lot
of reflective capacity.
(25:34):
So you're basically this littlemoldable, squishy, little
screaming thing and yourenvironment, I mean you have
lots of instincts and embeddeddata and everything.
But your environment is goingto do a lot to shape that and
develop it.
And if that's the case, yourearly tools are pretty important
and they're pretty important inhelping you make sense of who
(25:55):
you are and what's going on inthis big scary place you've just
, you know, shot out of yourmother into.
So if you are a baby and as yougrow up you know you cry, you
cry, cry, cry and your mom comesand holds you and says, oh you
look so sad, I'm so sorry you'resad, you know, like, let me rub
(26:15):
your back, let me rub your back, let's sit here in this Then
you're going to understand thatwhen you cry and make whatever
face you were making at your mom, and maybe if you cry in a
particular way, that that meansyou're sad.
And now you have a word to putto this particular experience.
And that when you're sad, youcan reliably expect, if this
(26:36):
happens over and over again, ifyour mom keeps comforting you,
that like that's going to makepeople want to take care of you
and comfort you and conveniently, that is what sadness is
designed to do.
So you are getting basically,like, correct, appropriate
social feedback for thatemotional experience that you're
having and when you do thatwith all of your other emotions
and you're like, oh, okay, likenow I'm angry.
(26:58):
And then your mom helps youmake sense of why you were angry
.
It made you angry when you gotpushed over on the playground
and now you want to, you know,yell at him.
Okay, I get it Like, yeah, Iunderstand, frustrate me too,
right, you get all of thisfeedback that suggests what
you're thinking is normal, itmakes sense, it makes sense to
(27:20):
other people and it can reliablyget the same kind of feedback
from other people.
And when you can get the samefeedback from other people, then
you can start to makeconsistent sense of who you are.
If I take ballet lessons and myteachers all consistently tell
me holy shit, you should be aprima ballerina when you grow up
, then I start thinking I'm aballerina, that's something
(27:40):
about me, that's true.
Everybody else thinks it's true.
I have evidence suggesting it'strue.
So that's something I'm goingto identify with.
If everyone tells you you'resmart, if everyone tells you
you're beautiful, et cetera, nowof course you're going to start
to get some people who don'tsay that you know, like, um,
I've been consistently told thatI have high emotional
intelligence and that I shouldbe a therapist.
(28:02):
But last week a Redditor said Ihave extremely low EQ and they
can't even fathom how I couldever be a mental health
professional, right, if I didn'thave an identity shaped around
this.
I wouldn't be able to buffermyself against that.
I would be very and I wasconfused right myself.
(28:22):
Against that, I would be veryand I was confused, right,
because it's that was a verystrong claim.
But the problem is now we'retaking a different kid who comes
out and they scream and theyget hit.
I'm like, oh my God, okay, so Iguess when I'm upset, I get hit
, but then another time whenthey scream, they get cuddled,
and so, like this is weird.
Okay, sometimes when I scream,I get hit.
(28:45):
Sometimes I get cuddled.
Third time when I scream, theyget cuddled, and so, like this
is weird.
Okay, sometimes when I scream,I get hit.
Sometimes I get cuddled.
Third time when I scream,everybody ignores me.
Okay, what is the screamingthing I'm doing?
This kid is going to be like,when I scream, no one's helping
me understand what's happening.
No one's telling me it'sbecause I'm hungry or because
I'm cold or because I want tohug, like, and they're giving me
really weird social feedback.
I can't predict what happenswhen I have this emotional
experience.
So what is this experience?
I don't know.
I don't know what it is I'mfeeling.
(29:07):
I don't know why it is I dothese things.
It's just something in me saysscream, and then I scream and
then I'm hit and sometimes I'msoothed and sometimes I'm
ignored.
So I don't know whether Ishould keep doing this or not
And'm not getting likeconsistent social feedback.
So okay, now this person'ssaying that I'm a good at ballet
, but this person says I'm badat ballet and I don't have any
kind of core place from which Ican know exactly who I am and
(29:29):
why I feel the things and whatI'm feeling.
And so who knows if I'm good atballet?
I don't know.
I guess I'll just believewhatever somebody says to me in
the moment, like it's the, it'sthe best thing I've got to hold
onto is just whatever you tellme I am or who you tell me I am
right at this very moment, causeI can't.
There's no predictive qualityto it.
It's going to change nextmoment.
So I guess then I'll believethat.
(29:51):
And so now you have the personwith BPD, having this develop,
you know this identity likeproblem where they're just like
I don't know who I am.
And if you don't know who youare, it's really hard to
mentalize, because you don'tknow what your own emotions are
saying.
How are you supposed to knowwhat other people's emotions are
(30:11):
saying and how are you supposedto know how other people feel
about you when you're notgetting any kind of consistent
information?
And so you're just this kind oflike big ball of confusion?
And the other thing is thatsometimes it's a really bad idea
to mentalize, because if you'rea little kid whose mom or dad
abuses them and doesn't take anygood care of them and is really
(30:32):
chaotic, then what are yougoing to do?
Think, yeah, it must mean theydon't love me, they don't care
about me.
Okay, yeah, I guess.
Okay, like, that's not a good,that's not a helpful thing to
believe, necessarily, and soblocking mentalizing can be
adaptive.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (30:47):
Yeah, there's also this, this other layer
that the mentalizationliterature adds on to to this,
like what you were describing asa nice, like bio-social theory
of um, how important it is forcaregivers and the people around
you to help you make sense ofyour own emotions right and help
you regulate.
And the piece that thementalization group Bateman and
(31:10):
Fonagy talk about is thatthey're at some point in the
kid's development they get theidea that you're, they're
looking at your, they're lookingat their mom and their mom has
a picture of you in their mindLike it's not just oh, you're
(31:30):
sad, it's oh, you're sad, youare sad.
And then there's this we're sogood socially that there's an
understanding that, oh, I'm ababy, I'm sad, but mama is not
sad, mama's seeing me, oh, she'sthinking about me.
Wait a minute, I'm thinkingabout mom.
(31:50):
Right, it's crazy to to alsosee it happen with my toddler,
where there is this like thisbeautiful connection with the
baby, where you are one likethat kind of level where
emotions are shared and we're init together and babies until I
think that, like two or three,they don't have an idea that you
(32:15):
are separate from their mom.
Yeah, until this, theperspective taking theory of
mind, part of your brain startsto develop around, I think, age
three, where they go.
Oh wait, I have a separatebrain and you have a separate
brain and I'm sad, but you don'tseem to be sad.
Actually, I feel like the worldis ending right now because I'm
(32:37):
upset and probably hungry, butyou seem calm.
So I'm going to feel safebecause I'm going to assume that
you also have a perspective onit that I don't have, right?
So that's like such animportant part of our social
emotions is that we developedand really evolved uniquely to
(32:57):
be a bunch of brains together.
Right, I have a mind and I havemy own feelings and you guys
have a whole bunch, and mysurvival relies on trying to
figure out what you guys aredoing and thinking and feeling,
but also how to communicate whatI need to you guys, and then we
all coordinate this whole dancetogether of minds and feelings.
Right, we're all one, but we'reall kind of separate.
(33:19):
So that autonomy, thatseparation, is something that
they think that people with BPDdon't have.
It's like.
It's like being stuck like atoddler right when they I watch
it and my mom I watch it andlike people who have like severe
emotions, dysregulation.
They're like oh, I'm mad andyou hate me and I'd be like no,
I, I meant something else, youmisinterpreted.
(33:41):
They're like no, that'simpossible, because what I think
and feel was the whole worldRight.
And so it has this narcissistic, self-absorbed quality because
their emotions are the onlything that matter.
But the theory is because theyjust don't realize that that's
not true, that other people canfeel different things than you,
(34:03):
which is so basic.
But think about what the worldwould be like if you felt like
your emotion was literally theonly thing that existed.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (34:11):
Yeah, I mean, if you and get crazy
feedback to your emotions, thenit's difficult to make sense of
what that other person isthinking or feeling, I guess.
And so how can you create amental representation of
(34:34):
yourself in their mind?
Like for something to makesense, there has to be a through
line.
There has to be some aspect ofconsistency.
So if you get crazy chaoticstuff, you're not going to have
a through line.
If you get intensely negativestuff, you will have a through
line, but it will be deeplyshameful.
I am hated and I think.
(34:54):
I think people with BPD oftenget one of those two outcomes.
Um, people with BPD often getone of those two outcomes.
Did your, did Jackson learn howto say daddy before mama?
You know that's.
Do you know why that theory?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:09):
It was what you were just talking about.
Because, like, because the herecognized the babies, recognize
a dad, a separate beings,faster than mom.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (35:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (35:18):
I know it's it's.
It sucks because, because,because, like there, when he was
developing autonomy, he wasespecially like like nasty or
annoying to me.
I'm like really nice to Alex,like I would.
He would be working onsomething and I come in and I
would like say hello or say andhe'd be like no, go away, mama.
(35:39):
And at first I was like, but Ilearned that it's because that
they just they're learningautonomy, so they need to feel
that separateness and they likedo things to push you away Right
, Like this big no phase whenthey're two, like no, no, no,
Just because you have somethingto brush your teeth or eat
something, and even if they'regoing to, they just want to say
no, to be like I'm a differentperson and I'm going to make
(36:01):
this decision.
I'm going to eat that, but notbecause you told me it's really
fun.
It's a really fun time.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (36:07):
Fronege also talked and this kind of
confused me, but he talks abouthow people with BPD will often
need to create an emotionalexperience in another person
that they can see out in theworld in order for them to make
sense of what's happeninginwardly.
Have you heard this?
(36:29):
Like what?
No, that's cool.
Like if I'm feeling panic, butI can't own that because I don't
, I don't have a way of makingsense of my own emotions.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (36:32):
I might call you and be like we need to talk
and then hang up To make, tomake me panic, yeah, to be like
oh, it's real now that someoneelse feels it, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (36:42):
That's interesting.
I don't know if research backsthat up, but, um, I was reading
the mentalization basedtreatment handbook and I was
talking about that, so, um, Ican also just imagining Jackson
being like I'm mad, she's me,let's make her mad, and then I
can see it out in the real worldand I can play with it and
understand it.
You know what I mean.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:00):
Yeah, I mean it just feels like mentalization
and developing mentalizationgood empathy skills is really
about learning that we haveedges.
Right Like if you just feellike you're just like a bunch of
emotion and we don't have edges, we don't have borders between
me and you.
Oh my God, talk aboutregulation.
I mean, how do you even managea feeling that doesn't have any
(37:21):
boundaries, literally so?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (37:24):
yeah, I had a friend who would talk
about.
She's like I can't even tellwho I am unless somebody's
mirroring for me, like unlessI'm in front of somebody talking
, and that's why she would ventat me so much and spew so much
towards me, because she's justlike I have to, like somebody
has to witness this, or I can'texperience it, or something like
that.
Um yeah, and of course that's ahuge burden on the loved one.
(37:47):
So it's, it's a problem.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (37:50):
What do you think is going to happen with
all these kids who now, thesekids these days but, like you
know, who are seeing themselvesin videos and photos on their
phone, all like since they werebabies?
Instagram, like all the socialmedia, where you're literally
seeing yourself as an externalrepresentation all the time?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (38:14):
uh, I don't know.
I mean, I grew up looking atpictures of myself.
I'm more concerned about thefact that they're not being
mirrored by real people andthey're going to be mirrored by
AI, and AI is going to tell themwho they are.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (38:29):
By the internet trolling right Like you
know, it's we.
The social feedback we get nowis even worse because you don't
even get real mentalization.
You don't really get howeveryone was thinking and
feeling.
You get like this, reallyone-sided bias.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (38:53):
Like you suck, you're terrible, right
, this like almost like drive-byshooting of emotion, of social
feedback.
Reddit was so hard for me tolet go of because I knew that at
a certain point they were nolonger reacting to me.
They were reacting to an avatarof me that was made up of a lot
of false memories that peopleon Reddit created and like
attached to me, and yet it wasstill so hard to relinquish like
(39:14):
, no, that's that's me, that'sme they don't like.
It's me that they're um, youknow that's me they don't like.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (39:24):
It's me that they're um.
You know I don't stronglyidentify with the public version
of you.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (39:28):
Like you know, it's fun.
Now I'm like having this metamoment where I'm like maybe this
is what it's a little bit whatthe bp experience is.
I don't know what the publicversion of me is.
I don't.
I didn't receive consistentfeedback, so I would put out a
part of myself, but I don't knowwhat that consistent whole
story that was telling.
(39:48):
Because when you're an adultand like a full fledged person
with a lot of angles and nuancesand you know colors and shades
and whatever it's like, you justput out a two sentence caption
with a picture on Instagram andthen you do it again and again
and again and again.
Like who is that person?
I don't know.
It's hard to see that person asseparate from myself, but of
(40:11):
course, other people aren'treally knowing me from that.
They're only knowing littlesnapshots.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (40:17):
I mean, I only had a taste of what you
experienced, but I I posted thatpost about, like the pov reel
about um, a story and asituation that I've heard from
many different people and peoplein the cool line community,
where um, it's peop, it's womenwho are noticing that their
(40:39):
husbands are getting moredepressed and drinking more,
getting more withdrawn and tendto go on YouTube channels that
are more right wing, right Likethe manosphere, at the masculine
kind of, and this was from bothsides of the pockets and I said
POV, your husband is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right, and
(40:59):
this is not my life.
This is not what Alex like, it'snot me at all.
It literally was like I made ameme but like you used me as the
video and put the words overand getting like so much
internet, like flack, so manyconservative men saying awful
things, like you know well, ifmy wife looked like you, I'd
(41:21):
drink too.
And like you know well, if mywife looked like you, I'd drink
too.
And like you know you liberalwomen are the problem and you
know like there was a level oflike this is so silly and this
is not even me, but you can'thelp but take it personally, and
also, I guess maybe there's apart of the shame that makes it
(41:42):
even worse when you can't, whenyou can't defend yourself at all
, like when you, when it'sliterally like people with none
of his usernames saying all thisawful things to you um, it did.
It doesn't make any differenceto like, write back to them or
defend yourself in anymeaningful way, because it's
(42:02):
just kind of like, you know,it's just like insults raining
down.
It's not a one-on-oneinteraction.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (42:08):
So I wonder, I don't know, I'm just,
I mean, look just like a personwith bpd cries and one day
they're hit with little hittingand the next day they're hit
with screaming and the third daythey're hit with comfort.
It's like when you go out oninstagram after the bachelor and
you post something and you geta thousand people telling you,
(42:28):
oh my god, you're the mostamazing person ever.
But then you get 300 peopletelling you you're pretentious,
trash and you lied about gettinga phd and you're so stupid and
you use such stupid words andyou're not that hot and what
else.
You're back and, uh, whatever,you're just like.
(42:48):
Well, that's pretty fuckingcompelling.
Like I mean, a thousand peopleseem to like me, but 300 people
is a pretty big number, and likethey really hate me.
So I don't know, I don't know ifthis piece of me that I, that's
like morsel right of me that Ileft out in the internet, I
don't know if that's a goodthing or a bad thing.
I don't know if it's a likething or a dislike thing.
It's both, and so how am Isupposed to make sense of that?
Okay, I'll try another one.
(43:09):
Same thing happens.
Fuck, I don't know.
Right, it's like hard to it'shard to conceptualize of what
that is.
You're, in person, like I'vegot a whole history of evidence
of people loving me andaffirming me and experiencing me
in a particular way, and thenthat kind of self-esteem comes
back.
But online you are.
You're putting out a differentpersona.
(43:30):
You're just putting littlemorsels of yourself out there
and people are eating it andsome of them are spitting it
back out and some of them areenjoying it, and you're just
like I don't know, know what, Idon't know how to make sense of
this.
And so, of course, like it'sdifficult then to discredit the
negative information you get,because you don't know if it's
(43:51):
good so are you saying?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (43:55):
this is what happens with people with
borderline personality disorderis that they just have such a
difficult time understanding whothey are and having a grounded
sense of themselves that shamecan be just overwhelming.
Kind of like what you'retalking about here, where you're
like a buffer against shame islike, oh, I've had a lot of
(44:15):
experiences where people lovedme, but if they just literally
have nothing to go on, thenshame might be just too much.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (44:22):
Well, yeah, because how, if you have
nothing to go on, if you trulydon't know whether you're a good
person or a likable person orwhatever, and someone says you
suck, you're, you're not goingto have a lot to push back on,
you're just gonna be like, ohGod, I suck, like I'm bad,
(44:48):
because I don't have a wholeback history of evidence telling
me otherwise.
I better believe this becausewhat, like?
Why wouldn't I right?
Like that experience of shameis way, way, way different than
being able to say, well, thisperson doesn't like me in this
moment yeah, and it's alsointeresting that people with bpd
tend to hypermentalize right,it's like this overthinking?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:08):
I mean, tell me more about hypermentalization
.
I understood it, as they tendto have too many thoughts.
They tend to read into otherpeople's thoughts and feelings
more than they actually exist.
Is that like overthinking other?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbul (45:23):
people's thoughts Essentially, but you
can have just one single thought.
That's hypermentalized.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:27):
So I what does that mean?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (45:30):
It means that I make a mentalized
inference for which there is notsufficient evidence.
So if you frown at me and I sayshe hates me, that's a single
thought.
But it's hypermentalized.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (45:45):
Oh, I see, I see, but like all mentalization
has that a little bit right.
Like we don't have all theevidence but we get.
We're making a lot of guessesof what people are thinking and
feeling and if it's accurate,it's accurate right, like well,
right, so no one says that hypermentalization is inaccurate.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:04):
And so this is all this measurement.
Difficulty is like yeah, you'reright, like we are all making
inferences.
Some of us are are makinginferences with more reasonable
evidence, I suppose.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:17):
Um.
So people with BVD, because oftheir shame, tend to, um, just
make more interpretations andguesses about what other people
are thinking and feeling justmake more interpretations and
guesses about what other peopleare thinking and feeling.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:33):
They make more, not necessarily more
in terms of quantity they're not.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (46:35):
I mean, they're just making guesses
without evidence.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (46:38):
Yeah, but they tend to be negative and
like more.
But I mean, I suppose you couldhyper-mentalize in the opposite
direction.
You know, we know, that peoplewith BPD split about themselves.
Sometimes they think they'rethe coolest shit that's ever
been Right.
And so in that name, Ihypermentalize and say this
person loves me.
But we don't typically talkabout that in the literature.
It's more like negativehypermentalization.
And yes, it could be correct.
(46:59):
Like I could.
Correctly, I could behypermentalizing and say that
you hate me and, lo and behold,you actually do hate me, but
there was just no evidence forit and I don't know if they do
this because of shame.
When we included shame as acovariate, the group differences
disappeared.
I would imagine it has a lot todo with shame, but it also, I
think, fundamentally is just apretty good survival strategy if
(47:22):
you grow up in abuse.
If you grow up in abuse, youwant to make more wrong guesses
in a particular way, like moretype one errors versus type two.
It's amazing.
I've been six years in aprogram and I can never remember
which is which.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:37):
But if I want , to err on the side of caution.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (47:41):
You want to err on the side of
caution?
Dr. Kibby McMahon (47:42):
Yeah, no-transcript tends to hyper
(48:14):
mentalize or just you know, fromextreme shame, like it
sometimes feels like you are.
You are speaking on behalf of acharacter that that person has
made up for you, Like you'rebeing.
That person is seeing things inyou or making guesses about you
(48:34):
that you're like.
This is not.
I don't know where this iscoming from, and then you run
the risk of gaslighting them bysaying no, that's not true.
For example, like one of my bigfights with my mom is that I
said some things that sheinterpreted as like really
negative.
I said, maybe it's the fact youhave on people, and she
(48:55):
interpreted that as like I wassaying something super negative
and I wasn't.
And then she interpreted thenext part of the conversation as
you're not allowed to seeJackson ever again, my son.
The next part of theconversation as you're not
allowed to see Jackson everagain, my son, Even though I had
invited her over to see himthat day a couple times and I
(49:16):
remember it was such a weirdexperience to stand next to her
and she was like, wow, you toldme you never, you don't need, I
can never see my grandson again.
And I was like let me show youthe, the, the text messages
where I invite you over, and shejust kind of shook her head and
was like oh well, never mind.
And so I feel like I was in anargument when I wasn't even in
the argument, right, Like shewas fighting against someone.
(49:41):
That wasn't me like accusing meof thinking or feeling or
intending things that I didn'twasn't me like accusing me of
thinking or feeling or intendingthings that I didn't, and I
like in that scenario, like howdo you defend yourself?
All I could say is is I didn'tsay those things.
That was incorrect what youfelt and thought.
But yet that's also kind ofinvalidating to her experience,
which she just felt so rejectedand ashamed that it just like
(50:05):
hovered everything that she wasseeing.
So it kind of leaves you in abind as a loved one.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (50:10):
Well, this is.
It's just so funny Cause I wasthinking like I, you know, I
feel pressure to do what you'redoing on social media and start
making these videos andeverything.
But I feel very nervous aboutthat for a number of reasons,
but one of them has to do with alittle um card that I saw at
the VA.
That was called signs ofgaslighting and it was quotes
like that never happened orthat's not true, or you know,
(50:33):
like these things.
And I was like, yeah, okay,these are signs of gaslighting.
They're also signs of somebodywho's defending themselves
against something that didn'tfucking happen.
Right, like, yeah, if somebodyis saying that's what you said
and that's not what you said,because that's and that's not
what you intended, or whatever,like you can't call that
(50:56):
gaslighting, but they're goingto feel gaslit, and so now we
have a problem and it's one ofthe reasons why gaslighting is
being flung around all the time.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:07):
Yeah, and the other thing is that, yeah, I
mean it's Sorry, you talk.
No, go for it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:14):
Well, I was just going to say.
The other thing is thathypermentalization can become a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
If I tell you over and overagain that you don't like me and
you don't care about me, you'regoing to get fed up and stop
liking me.
And now I'm correctlymentalizing.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (51:31):
Right these core beliefs and schemas we have
such a drive to confirm them?
Right?
If I feel like no one loves me,I'm going to act in ways that
kind of push other people toreject me and not love me, Just
because confirming these beliefsabout ourselves sometimes feel
a lot more organizing than justbeing like whoa, everything I
know about myself.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (51:52):
It might not be real right, right,
it's a rat's nest and it's supersad it is.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (52:01):
I think that this is where um, the dbt, um
skills of learning that feelingsaren't facts, really come in
nicely Because, gosh, like Iwish I wish so many people
learned this.
Where it's like, yeah, youmight feel ashamed, you might
feel like my daughter's notletting me see my grandson ever
(52:21):
again, but that might be theshame talking and that might be
the shame.
And some people, feelings havereally shaped the way they think
, right, like some people go oh,I feel ashamed, but I but I
know this is not, this is justthe way I feel right now.
I don't I don't think everyonehates me, but some people feel
(52:42):
the shame and go oh, everyonehates me, and that's true and
there's no other possibility oftruth, right?
So you know?
And DBT is like learning thatlike feelings aren't always
facts, like feelings can reallyshape your thoughts and the way
you see things, but like that'snot always true.
Yeah, I just wish.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (53:05):
Well, I think that's crucial.
I think another important piecehere is, like another covariate
that I had in my study, whichis it's kind of like it's
another factor that kind ofcomes in and might explain some
of the differences you find socovariate was just a shameful
schema Like so how much do ourcore beliefs explain this?
And it was significant withhypermentalization.
(53:26):
But I think what's probablyhappening more is that if you
have this schema, you're morelikely to feel state shame, and
then that state shame is what'sgoing to screw up the
mentalization.
Um and so, but being able toname like okay, I've got this
core schema that says that Ithink I'm worthless.
Does this help me any more inlife?
(53:46):
Talk with your therapist, yes,no, maybe.
So, okay, not really, it's notreally helping me.
Then, when you're in a situationbeing able to name that okay, I
can tell I'm making anassumption that this person
doesn't like me.
And I know about myself that Ihave this core belief that I'm
unlovable and defective andworthless.
So might this be influencingthings?
(54:09):
And actually, that same friendthat I talked about, she caught
herself a couple of times andshe was like hey, um, I just did
this thing where I read whatyou said in a particular way,
but I'm trying to ask now,instead of making assumptions,
did you mean that you don't likeme?
I was like, no, that's not whatI meant by that.
I'm so glad you asked, right,like you caught.
(54:29):
You caught the schema.
So for me it's like when I seepatients, I have to know I have
an incompetent schema when I amnot insisting on them doing
homework.
Is this maybe that schema atwork?
And do I need to catch it andtry to do the opposite?
Right, like take a chance onmyself and then understand, like
(54:53):
, embedded in that is, myfeelings are not facts, they're
telling me information.
Some of this information mightbe useful, some might not be
useful, but I got to slow downand rifle through it and really
think about it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (55:00):
Yeah, these are all these metacognitive or
mindfulness abilities to peopleto step back and see, like, oh,
wow, look at this belief that Ihave that's affecting the way I
see things will then affect theway I feel.
Like I have this belief, I'mbroken, which will make me think
that someone hates me orthey're going to reject me or
think badly of me, which willmake me feel really ashamed,
(55:20):
which will make me shut down.
So it's just, I've noticed thatsince we've did our episode on
self-hatred, where I noticed howmuch of my core schemas are
negative, I'm like going aroundthe day being like wow, so many
of my thoughts are trying toconfirm or like check that.
Like are they better than meand why am I not doing enough?
(55:42):
Why am I not better?
Why am I like what haven't Idone yet?
Oh, that's not good enough.
Like just noticing that that'sa running inner dialogue all the
time it's helpful.
It's like it's kind of it'sdisorienting to watch my core
scheme, core shame schemasspinning around and around all
(56:03):
day.
But once I see it it's likekind of like seeing you know the
matrix where you're like, oh,this was all you know, a bunch
of ones and zeros Like now can.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:13):
I fly.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:13):
Like what can I, what you know what?
What now so?
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:16):
that's exciting.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:19):
Yeah, yeah, exciting is the word for it,
yeah.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:25):
There is a therapy called
mentalization based therapy.
I don't know how frequentlyit's done, but I think the
general idea is that yourtherapist is going to help you
get a sense of your own andothers mentalizing based on how
they respond to like the way.
I mean you've been to atraining, so actually I'll hand
it over to you to describe Ithink we should do a whole
(56:46):
episode on that.
Oh, okay.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (56:49):
So stay tuned .
Mentalization based training.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (56:54):
But I think the gist is like the
therapist tries to give you whatyou missed when you were a kid
consistency of responsing,organizing Do I say responsing.
Consistency and responses.
Do I say responsing,consistency and responses,
organizing um helping you makesense of what you feel and what
other people make feeling.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:12):
But we can do a separate episode um anything
else, super interesting to tryto figure out how to develop
mentalization abilities andpeople who struggle with it
anything else, but I think it'suh wine o'clock now.
I think it's time for you tocome over and watch?
Yeah, we should watch loveisland.
(57:34):
There's the uk and the usversion, and a shout out to any
any little helpers who want usto do episodes on.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (57:43):
You know analyzing these, because we
would love to so we alwaysthink about we were going to do
the other one, the other one,the trashy one, the one where
they jeopardize theirrelationships and then cheat on
each other.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (57:58):
It's a whole of them.
Yeah, temptation, yeah, it'slike temptation, something,
something.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:04):
Yeah, we were going to do that and
then we were like like we're aserious podcast, just kidding.
That was not what happened.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:10):
we procrastinated and then the
moment passed we're so notserious that we didn't do the
unserious episode and decided totalk about your dissertation
and said so.
If you want to hear us talkabout love island, either us or
uk, please send in yourquestions.
Send us.
You know, on the show notes youcan send us a text.
You click on that and justwrite us a message.
(58:31):
You know, I don't know, justsay hi oh my god, I'm gonna add
doctor.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:37):
I want to add my title clinical.
Yeah, I don't want to do thison air, but yeah, we're gonna
we're gonna add in in DrJacqueline Trumbull, everywhere.
So we're.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (58:51):
Dr Jacqueline Trumbull, and if you want to
link your dissertation to thisso people can read it.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (58:59):
Once it's on ProQuest, people can
read it.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:03):
I'll link it on the show notes.
So you should be really proud,it's a really cool study.
Proud, it's a really cool study.
It's a really cool topic.
Fame ruins everything.
Don't feel shame.
Don't do it.
You know it doesn't help do it.
When you feel shame, just shoveit down.
Feel other things still.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (59:19):
You probably want hurt people and
like it uh but yeah, but don'thurt us.
Um, instead, give us a fivestar rating on spotify and apple
podcasts so that we won't feelshame, and I will give you a
clue now about our mental status.
After you do that, it will behappy, we'll be happy we will
(59:42):
like it, we will like it andwe'll like you if you do that
okay, we like you guys, andwe'll like you if you do that.
Dr. Kibby McMahon (59:48):
Okay, we like you guys.
Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull (59:48):
anyway, We'll see you all next week.
Bye, Bye.
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