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Feeling stuck in the same arguments with your partner? Does it feel like a cycle of one of you is chasing and the other is running away? In this episode, we talk about the problematic cycle behind recurring relationship conflicts through the lens of Emotion-Focused Therapy (EFT).
We break down the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic: that frustrating cycle where one person pushes for connection while the other pulls away. What looks like rejection or criticism on the surface actually masks deeper attachment needs and fears. You may be the one desperately trying to get your partner to engage, or one who shuts down when emotions run high.
We argue that pursuers and withdrawers are actually fighting for the relationship in their own ways. Drawing from recent EFT research and our personal experiences, these patterns develop from childhood experiences and attachment styles.
We also talk about important strategies for breaking this pursue-withdrawal cycle of disconnection. For example, we cover TEMPO framework that helps couples identify what triggers their defensive reactions and how to communicate underlying needs more effectively. We also discuss how co-regulation and vulnerability can break destructive cycles and create deeper connection.
**If you are in a relationship with someone struggling with explosive emotions, you may be caught in these destructive cycles. Book a free call with Dr. Kibby to learn about how the KulaMind program helps people like you break the cycle.
Resources:
- If you're navigating someone's mental health or emotional issues, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, we'll help you set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hello, little helpers.
Today we are going to talkabout something that comes from
a couples therapy intervention,called emotion-focused therapy.
It's something I've been doingall year.
(00:21):
Kibbe just did a workshop on it, so we're jazzed up to talk
about this.
Couples therapy is something Ilove to do and obviously, as you
all know, we love talking aboutromance on this show.
So today we're going to talkabout a couple dynamic that can
cause problems, and that is thepursuer-withdrawer dynamic.
(00:43):
So we're going to get into thattoday.
But first I'm going to kick itoff to Kim to talk about Cool of
Mind, and then I think we'regoing to do some life updates.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks.
So Cool of Mind is our platformthat we're really making for
you all, you little helpers, tohelp you learn the skills to
support a loved one with emotiondysregulation.
So I've noticed that a lot ofpeople who've been reaching out
are people who have, like ahusband or a wife who might have
(01:11):
some anger issues and tend toexplode with emotion and the
person doesn't know what to do.
They want to also, they want tobe able to set boundaries so it
doesn't get dangerous, but theyalso want to help their loved
one too.
So that is the that is likewhat people have been reaching
out for help with.
So I wanted to talk aboutsomething exciting that in July,
(01:32):
in mid-July, we're going tostart a group course on this.
So, yeah, so if you'reinterested and just want to
learn more about workingone-on-one with me or to join
the group, you can reach out toKulamindcom or the link in the
show notes to book a call withme to just chat about it Awesome
(01:54):
.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Now I kind of want to teach that yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Best believe that I'm going to rope you into teaching
a couple, a couple sessions,especially on any of your
favorite topics.
So yeah, Jacqueline will alsobe teaching the group.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Well, I guess that's just fine right now.
My life, well, my life update,I guess, is that I'm going to be
a psychologist soon andtherefore we'll be able to be
roped into your practice.
Yeah, so.
I'm defending my education onFriday and then that's kind of
it.
Then I just have to survive inmy internship for another three
months, which is great, and thenI get to be a doctor.
(02:33):
How are you feeling Really good?
I mean, I'm going to my likefeelings of excitement are
slightly suspended because Ihave to get through this hurdle
first.
But, um, and I'm likeanticipating, every time I go
into a major hurdle, I'm like Ialways think it's going to feel
(02:53):
like this watershed, you knowemotional day, and then instead
it's kind of like oh huh, okay,well, this is just another day,
but I'm going to try to reallylet this one sink in.
I mean, it took me it was sucha journey getting into my PhD
program, um, or any PhD program,and so the fact that it's right
(03:17):
around the bend is kind of wild.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I know that is crazy.
I mean I just I remember whenwe first met.
I remember talking on Skype forthe first time and meeting at
the bar after your interview andI can't believe, like you're
done now.
So this is, this is huge.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I know.
I mean, we finally get to be atwo psychologist headed podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
That's exciting that's exciting, yeah, yeah, and
I'd love to.
When you know we're going to doan episode on what you learned
in your dissertation, but alsowe could talk about like your
whole journey, oh we're gonna doa grad school episode in three
months Unfiltered.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I've been like rehearsing this episode, the
grad school episode, for months.
I'm gonna and I'm like I've gotlike an angry version I'm not
gonna do, and then I've got likea gracious version that I'll
also probably not do.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
We'll make it a juicy one.
Juicy spilling the tea it wasjuicy, six years.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
To be honest, yeah, it was Starting with the
interview.
I mean, I went to thatinterview and hated it, and then
the thing that turned me aroundwas getting drunk with you and
Caitlin, yeah, and dragging youthrough six more years of pain
and suffering, so you're welcome.
It's so funny because I toldyou guys I was a gold digger and
(04:43):
you seemed to like love that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
And then that's how I got into grad school.
Yeah, man, I'm like, this girlis honest.
You know, this girl.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It's like an interesting amount of
self-awareness.
Yeah, I bet not too many peoplesay that at an interview, no
sit down.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
What's going on?
All right.
Well, I mean last episode wedug in deep into my childhood
trauma.
People are really nice, I mean,all you guys have been really
really sweet.
I want to respond to messageson on youtube especially, but
people, um, were really kind andreally supportive about me
opening up that much.
For people who haven't listened, I talked a lot about, I guess,
(05:35):
like childhood trauma that I'mkind of coping with and
realizing now, realizing theeffects of them and then how
I've had all these defensemechanisms over it, like feeling
really angry and then trying tocontrol that anger and all that
stuff.
So the past, ever since we didthe episode, I think, I've been,
uh, kind of, you know, in atrauma state, like a triggered
(05:58):
state.
Um, some days I felt reallyshaky and just kind of foggy and
I, you know, I found it reallyhard to focus on like details
and you know, like things on myschedule slipped my attention,
like I just was like a mess andI felt really shaky and insecure
.
So I kind of felt like as if Iwas like porous, like not my
(06:21):
normal full bodied self, but asif I was like a shaky leaf.
Um, so it just reminded me of,like, what trauma does and like
what happens when youre-experience it or reprocess it
.
You just feel like you're in itall over again.
Uh, so that was rough, but I'mfeeling a little bit better now.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Um is this something you're going to continue
processing, continue doing intherapy?
Is this something you're goingto continue processing, continue
doing in therapy?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I think so.
I think the question I had waswhy didn't more people help me
which I think that I've beentalking to people who knew me,
like therapists and other people, where the way I coped with a
lot of this kind of abusivechildhood experiences was
through anger and also likehyper, you know, being hyper
(07:09):
vigilant and working a lot andbeing like a star student.
So I was really like angry andfighting with my boyfriend and
breaking up with him all thetime, you know, being kind of uh
, I don't know like irritableand um in in and apparently like
I talked a lot about boytrouble back then, like being
angry with boyfriends.
But people are starting to saythat when they knew me back then
(07:35):
they didn't know the extent ofthe abuse, they didn't know how
bad it was with my mom.
So there's been sometimes likea kind of a community
reprocessing where it's like, oh, no wonder why you were so
angry or so focused on gettingout and working hard and how
angry you are with yourboyfriend because you know all
(07:57):
of this stuff that you wentthrough.
It just seemed like peopledidn't know how bad it was,
which that's kind of makes mesad.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I think how has this?
Are you just like calling themup and saying, hey, I want to
talk about this, and thendescribing what happened, Like
how is it happening that they'refinding out?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
No, I'm just talking to my therapist about the extent
of what happened, like all thedetails and stories that I
thought she knew but she reallydidn't, and also some family
members.
My grandma just moved to adifferent place, so there's a
lot of, you know, old stuff, oldfamily stuff that's being moved
around, and there are some oldjournals of mine, old emails
(08:36):
that I've sent my grandparentsthat when you look at it like it
didn't seem like anything LikeI described a dream where I
where I wrote this when I was 14.
I had a dream where I wasthrown in jail and I didn't know
why, but basically I found outthat I can never leave and I
found out that my mom was theone who had me locked up and she
(08:59):
basically said well, it's myfault that we're locked up, but
it's if it weren't for yourstupid father.
And so the end of the dream.
I realized that I was liketrapped in this forever, and now
that makes sense, right.
That like, I'm like oh yeah, Iknow what that feels like.
I feel trapped.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It's amazing when dreams can really nail it.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, so if people I mean the moral of the story is
that people are in a toughsituation and they're angry I
kind of wish I wish I learnedhow to express it better to get,
actually, you know, the helpthat I needed.
But especially with children,when kids are really angry and
they have an unstable household,I think the better question,
(09:46):
instead of like what's wrongwith you or punishing them, is
like how can we help you?
Like what's going on?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
What are they struggling with?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, like, like, what are they coping with, with
this anger, instead of justblaming them, which I feel like
I got a lot of like blame andpunishment, and this like view
of myself is like a bad angryperson, when really it was like
a way to cope.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So is your view of yourself shifting at all, or is
it too early for that?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
It's making, it's destabilizing.
I think it's making me reallyconfused.
What's real?
Also, it doesn't help that mymom, I think, probably listening
to the episode, texted mesaying you're delusional and
none of that stuff happened.
So that is taking space,because I can't, I can't even,
but it's letting me believe,like what was real, like was I
(10:38):
really a problematic kid or aremy memories real?
You know, just kind of almost, Idon't know.
Just I'm like fractured intopieces.
Is it a problematic case?
I think it's.
My inner voice is always liketrying to cope with this belief
that I was or am a bad person.
(11:00):
And I know that's not logicalwhen I say it out loud, like I
know my life and how I treatpeople, but there's always a
part of me that's like, oh, I'vehad to overcome being a bad
person.
And then I'm like was I?
Yes, no, so I.
Just the view of myself is nowfeeling like it's all muddled
(11:21):
and I don't know what to trust.
Yay, healing.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
It's all muddled and I don't know what to trust.
Yay healing.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
So I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Only took 39 years and cancer to get here.
But here I am.
How are you doing physically?
Has the hormone started Much?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
better, much better.
Now I'm going to start hormonetherapy soon to Voxfin.
I'm really scared becausethat's supposed to put me into
menopause.
So if the next episodes are mejust screaming about hot flashes
, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Do some menopause episodes.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Do some hormonal hormonal episodes, but I'm I'm
through the major part, I'mcancer free and this is all
about preventing it.
So I'm kind of like it almostkind of feels like a a new start
in many ways, like new start tomy body and you start to the
way I see myself, new start tomotherhood and me as a
professional helping otherpeople going through stuff that
(12:26):
I went through.
So it's like it kind of feelslike a rebirth in a way.
It doesn't feel as like amazing, as like a phoenix rising from
the ashes.
Right, it feels like I'm justlike dragging myself out from
the rubble.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
It'd be nice if it were more eat, pray, love, but
it's more.
Yeah, I want to go to bali andjust eat javier bardem and then,
yeah, find myself.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
But you know, we all get to get to where we're going
some way all right.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, speaking of fucking javier bardem, why don't
we move into our discussion ofromance?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Okay, this is making me thinkabout Vicky Cristina Barcelona,
one of my favorite movies of alltimes.
Is he in it?
Yeah, have you not seen it,jacqueline?
Your homework after this is towatch that movie.
We're going to talk about thisepisode, and the next one is
going to be all about couples,dynamics and problematic ones,
(13:29):
and disconnection and connection.
You have to watch that movie,it's so good.
Vicky Cristina Barcelona.
It's a Woody Allen movie withJavier Bardem, scarlett
Johansson, penelope Cruz and Iforgot her other name but the
three most beautiful, sensualwomen in all sorts of ways.
You have to watch it.
Everyone listening got to watchthat movie.
(13:50):
If you haven't.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Tell me about the Pursuer Withdrawal thing.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
You tell me Okay, so emotion is it emotionally
focused?
Therapy Is it?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
is it emotion focused therapy?
Is it?
Is it emotion focused therapy?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Okay so emotion focused therapy is this amazing
couples therapy modality thatyou've been learning a lot and I
just did an intensive trainingI think it was last week and it
really it was so beautifulbecause it it just tied together
attachment theory andattachment needs with couples
dynamics and then what to doabout it and emotion regulation,
(14:29):
so really just like it was likeeverything I was looking for
and my mind is still blown fromit.
And yeah, you've been.
You've been doing it all year,right?
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, I'm in an EFT rotation, so I've been working
with couples for about ninemonths now and doing a weekly
like supervision and didactics.
Um, I'll be honest, I mean, thecouple that I worked with
primarily was extraordinarilydifficult, and so my confidence
in myself doing EFT is like alittle bit low.
Um, but I I love the model andit's like if I could master EFT
(15:06):
I would feel like a superstar.
It's like all of my growthedges in one.
It would make me into thepsychologist I want to be.
So I'm actually joining apractice as a postdoc next year
with an EFT focus as well, soit's going to be a big part of
my work.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Nice.
Well, why don't you say whatthe basic model is or the goal
is for EFT, and then we can yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So the so?
Uh, I'm not going to get too inthe weeds, but basically the
way I would think about it isyou have a couple and they've
been, uh, they've been missingeach other, right?
So if we think about any couple, any person is going to make
bids, like bids for attention,bids for love, and the way we
(15:51):
kind of react to those bids isimportant and what will often
happen is, over time or becauseof our dynamic or because of our
attachment history, we're notresponding optimally to our
partner and we're getting into acycle where what's really
happening emotionally issomething like I want love, I
(16:14):
want to know that you care aboutme.
I don't know how to get thatfrom you, but I'm trying.
But how that's expressed comesacross very differently.
It can come across aggressively, like um yeah, why can't you
ever do the dishes?
Or like why, why aren't wehaving sex?
Like what do you even give ashit, right?
(16:36):
So it's like it comes across asreally confronting and shaming.
But what it's really saying islike I have an unmet need and I
want you to fill it, and I don'tunderstand why you're not
filling it, and I just want youto show up for me, right, and
show me that you value me, andthat tends to be more the
pursuer.
Like I am somebody.
(16:58):
Maybe I have an attachmenthistory where if I wasn't the
one to speak up, no one elsewould.
Maybe I have an attachmenthistory where, in order to have
people pay attention to me, Ihave to be as loud as possible,
I have to make myself seen,because otherwise I'm just going
(17:18):
to go unnoticed.
And so you know, I'm going togo after it.
I'm going to want to resolveconflicts right away.
I mean, I like I'm going to bethe person who says we can't go
to bed without resolving this.
We have to talk about it, wehave to get it out in the open,
we have to.
Let's have this fight, let'sjust do it Like, come on, come
(17:38):
on, come on.
Like, connect with me.
You know, like, don't, don'tmove away from me, don't ignore
me, Don't right, don't disappear.
Like, in order for me to feelsecure, you have to be in this
with me and you have to becommunicating with me.
And, um, and what the otherperson, the kind of withdrawer
in the dynamic, might be doingis saying oh God, I don't know
(18:01):
how to respond to this.
Um, either, it might be likethis is a lot of intensity that
I, like, my nervous system can'tregulate, or it might be
something like, god, I can't doanything right, like you know.
Yet again, like, okay, fine, Ididn't take the trash out, I
(18:21):
didn't do the dishes, but like,do you ever notice what I do do
right?
Like I just feel likeeverything I do is not enough
and it just makes me want tohide and disappear and withdraw.
And you know what they'resaying, kind of underneath right
is like why am I not goodenough?
Like how can I be good enough?
I don't.
I keep trying but nothinghappens.
And I'm afraid to like, I'mafraid to speak up, I'm afraid
(18:43):
to tussle with you because it'sreally just regulating for me
and I don't know what's going tohappen and I'm too scared of a
blow up because that couldfracture us forever.
And I'm too scared of a blow upbecause that could fracture us
forever.
So their attachment historymight be really different.
Right, they might be theconciliatory one growing up,
they might be the one whoseneeds never mattered, and so
they just learned to keep themto themselves and keep quiet.
(19:04):
They might have come from ahome where people were really
like loud and aggressive andscary, and so they learned to
like keep, you know, keep theirfeelings for themselves and kind
of hide away with it.
And so, really, you have bothpeople in the couple longing for
each other and longing foracceptance.
But the way that they'recommunicating is basically
(19:26):
creating a moment of like oh ineach person.
And as soon as that oh happens,like oh, okay, I didn't, I
didn't do the trash.
Oh, okay, uh-oh, uh-oh, thisfeels bad, this feels bad.
Okay, now I'm reacting fromthis place of like insecurity
and like unsafeness, and so I'mgoing to uh.
And then that like withdraw andsends them like an uh-oh to the
(19:47):
pursuer who's like oh, my God,they're withdrawing from me
again.
They clearly don't care aboutme, only care about themselves.
What can I do to get them tolove me?
Okay, I'll just chase them down, so they'll have to talk to me,
so this anxiety can go away andit's just us back and forth.
Yeah, Would you say.
That resonates with yourworkshop.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, and I love that they summarized and said you
know the goal is.
They call it COCO, which Iloved, which is co-regulation
and co-creation of meaning.
So I love that they said that.
In EFT they say you know, theresearch shows this is really
(20:26):
sad that 70% of couple problemsdon't get resolved ever.
So what that means is likeyou're thinking about all the
fights that you're having withyour partner.
Now.
You're gonna have them probably70 percent forever, but it's
less about what you're fightingabout and, like Esther Perel,
(20:46):
says a lot how you're fighting.
So, if the idea is okay, inthese fights, the problem is
that when a couple can'tco-regulate, they can't come
together and then calm down andreally attune to each other's
needs in that moment.
When we talk about emotionregulation, I don't want to say
(21:14):
like it's a way that everyoneneeds to keep calm, but it's
like if one person is sad andfeeling disconnected or
vulnerable or scared or whatever, what's regulating is that for
for the partner to see that andbe with them in it and then they
create meaning around it, right?
So it's really that comingtogether and connecting that's
really important.
And as you were saying, peoplehave different, learn different,
(21:36):
coping mechanisms.
To get that right Like thepursuer pursues.
They push, they demand, theyscream they.
Why don't you?
They come at you, right,sometimes, literally like
walking, you know, chasing thatother person and the other one
withdraws, right, the the avoid,shut down, freezes like this.
(21:56):
I and I love thinking about thisbecause I'm so sick of the way
attachment theory is talkedabout in instagram and social
media it's like what are you?
Are you avoidant or are youanxious?
Yeah, like anxious people, theyjust need love and and you just
learn that you're good enoughon your own.
And avoidance you suck and youshould just stop hating people
(22:19):
so much.
You're trash, right.
And it didn't really make anysense to me because, although
people tend to pursue more oravoid more or withdraw more, but
to put people in like twocategories or actually three
categories one's like you'reperfect, don't worry about it,
right To be.
Like you chase too much or yourun away too much.
(22:41):
That didn't.
That felt too simplistic to bereal.
So I like how this is talkingabout.
This is your dynamic, this ishow this is like.
You are feeling alone,disconnected and and scared, and
you want your partner in itwith you.
And how do you get that?
Yeah, so it's really more likewhat you're doing in a position
(23:01):
than a person, because what alsocan happen is if you know the
pursuer goes hey, come on, whydon't you do the dishes?
Come on, like what's going on,right, and like pursues, pursues
, and the withdrawer pulls awayand shuts down.
It's like I don't know, I don'tknow, I don't know.
Okay, fine, whatever,eventually, if that that.
So the withdrawer withdraws andthey that signals the pursuer
(23:25):
oh my God, I'm being abandoned,I have to go chase, right.
So it's this kind of likereciprocal, like withdraw,
withdraw, chase, chase, chase.
So it's this kind of likereciprocal, like withdraw,
withdraw, chase, chase chase.
So it's like a cycle.
And then often, when that cyclegets so extreme, they switch,
the withdrawer snaps and goeslike fine, get it, you know,
like what do you want?
And then the and then thepursuer gives up right, shuts
(23:47):
down.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
So it's fine, I don't want to be the one always
fighting for this.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
So there really is always like kind of a back and
forth and, as you said, it'sjust like a pattern of missing
each other.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, so yeah, I think the kind of one of the
goals you're saying, like theco-regulation piece, for
instance is there's this movecalled tempo, and this is kind
of one of the major things thatthe psychologist is trying to do
with the couple.
Um, so the first, basically,what you're trying to do is say,
(24:19):
I like to call it the line ofvulnerability.
So, like below the line ofvulnerability, is what's really
going on, like in your heart,right when it's like I want to
know that you love me.
I want, can I want you in thisfeeling with me, so that you can
help me, so that I know thatyou're there for me, right?
Um, and the?
You know it might be like thewhy?
(24:40):
Why do you think I doeverything wrong?
Why am I not good enough?
Why, like that's all the stuffthat needs to be communicated,
but instead is communicatedineffectively, kind of above the
line of vulnerability.
That's like why don't you nevertake the trash out?
Like, why am I?
Do you just like you're justexpecting to do everything for
you, like while you're justfucking around?
It's like that kind of stuff,um, but so what?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
what you're really gonna look like right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So you're gonna like look at this, at like the latest
fight, right, and you're gonnatry to locate for each person,
what was the first oh.
So this is the T in tempo whichis trigger.
So like, when was that firstmoment where you go, oh, this is
something doesn't feel good,something doesn't feel good and
I have to respond to it.
So once you kind of have thetrigger, you know, located, then
(25:31):
you can say, okay, that waswhat started all of this.
What did that trigger sort ofsay to me, like, what was the
emotion that came up when thattrigger happened?
Because then, as we know,emotions have action urges and
they propel us into doing thingsthat maybe otherwise we
wouldn't do.
So, like with the trash example, it's like my trigger was
(25:52):
seeing that the trash hadn'tbeen taken out and the emotion
that I felt was anger.
Well, the next thing you haveto understand is, like, what's
the meaning of that trigger toyou?
How did you interpret whathappened?
The interpretation was hedoesn't care about me, he
doesn't care about me, hedoesn't respect me.
(26:13):
So it's like, okay, if that'sthe meaning that you're
assigning to that action, thenlike, of course you're going to
be mad, right, and of course,you're going to be kind of a
tacky.
What was the protective action?
This is P.
What was the protective actionthat you took because of that
emotion?
How did you try to protect yoursense of self, your sense of
(26:33):
worth?
Right, like your sense of self,your sense of worth right, like
your sense of self-esteem?
Okay, the protection action Itook was I'm not just gonna sit
here and take it, I'm not justgonna be a wife who does
everything for her husband.
I'm gonna call him on it, youknow, and I'm gonna tell him
that I'm mad.
It's like oh, okay, that makessense, because you're worried
that if you don't do that,you're gonna disrespect yourself
, because you already feeldisrespected.
(26:54):
And now you'd have two peopledoing it instead of just one.
And then the O is what thetherapist does, which is just
organize it.
So it's like helping you totell that story.
Then you move over to the otherperson, right?
So your trigger was being blamedfor not taking the trash out.
Oh, the emotion you experiencedwas like anxiety.
The meaning you said was oh,I'm just never good enough, I
(27:15):
can never do anything, right.
So your protective action wasto shut down and not talk about
it, because you don't want to befurther accused of this and you
feel like you can't explain.
If you never do anything, right, then how are you going to
explain it?
You don't do anything, right?
So of course you're not goingto explain it, right?
So then you're going to run andhide, right?
So that's a protective actionand what we want to get the
people to do, the.
(27:37):
When I saw that the trash wasn'ttaken out, I got angry because
I thought that that meant youdidn't care about me and didn't
respect me, and that made mewant to attack you and, you know
, get really mad at you and tellyou exactly how I felt.
But I want you to know that,like, really, that was about me
fearing that you don't want me,you don't love me, because once
(28:03):
you can, once the other partnercan understand that it's like oh
, it's not that I, it's not thatI do everything wrong, it's
that she's really longing for meto show her that I love her and
she's experiencing some of thethings I do as as a real, like,
attachment wound.
It's not about like, am I goodat chores, right, and so then
that kind of that's, that's thatvulnerability that allows the
partner to then responddifferently.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, and what you're talking about is a form
of assessment, like reallygetting people to tune to what
was going on in those conflictpatterns and be like, okay,
let's see that pursue withdrawdynamic and the really cool
thing about it is that it'sabout the couples and to stop
blaming each other and stop likegetting at each other with
(28:46):
these hard emotions, with apursuit like stonewalling and
fighting right, but to more see,hey, this is, we're tackling
this negative cycle together.
This pursue withdraw is a thingthat's happening and we got to
come together to figure it out.
Yeah, I, I also.
I also find it so validating tohear this model and because
(29:11):
it's basically it gives a lot oflegitimacy to the idea that
when you don't feel connected toyour partner, the person who's
supposed to be your rock, yourfoundation, your you know,
literally partner, it's crazymaking right.
Like it.
You know to feel like someonedoesn't care about you or
someone doesn't see you.
It drives you nuts, especiallyif you had an insecure
(29:34):
attachment or abandonment issuesgrowing up right.
So for this to escalate thatquickly and to kind of go into
these default coping mechanismsand make sense, but yeah, what I
was so powerful in the workshopwas that they described they
took one day to talk about thewithdraw or and then one day to
(29:55):
talk about the pursuer and I'vealways was like am I more
avoidant or am I more anxious?
Right, we've always talkedabout that.
Like am I avoidant?
But it's, it's really cool.
They describe the withdraweralmost like the internalizer,
the fixer, people pleaser, theone who tends to be more, like
they said, like more detailedoriented and conscientious, but
(30:18):
really I think it's more of this.
People pleaser the one who haslearned that you can get safety
and your needs met bydeescalating.
So maybe they grew up in anenvironment where it was
explosive and chaotic and theylearned okay, my job, if I need
to get my needs met, I got tocalm everyone down, avoid
(30:40):
conflict and the fear that'sdriving.
That is so sad.
It's like if we keep going likethis, if we keep escalating.
Something terrible is going tohappen.
There's going to be.
We're going to say something wedon't mean, something that we
can't take back.
We're going to do something todamage the relationship or our
kids, or something, butcontinuing this escalation is
(31:04):
bad.
So what do I do?
Is I?
I freeze?
And the thing is that it mightbe obvious that the withdraw,
the freezing, stonewalling ismaking it worse, but they feel
like they're in, they feel likethere's so much pressure, like
they're walking on eggshells orwalking in a landmine where they
go.
Well, I, I know that's freezingis bad, but I also think that
(31:32):
it's not as bad as escalating.
Right, so this is like thelesser of two evils, but I feel
like I'm trying so hard to makeeverything work and deescalate
and keep everyone calm andmediate and I'm still not being
successful.
I'm a failure.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
So it's so sad because when we did this like
experience exercise where weclosed our eyes and like put
ourselves in the in the positionof a withdrawer, and there was
parts of it I really resonatedwith.
But I really pictured Alex, myhusband and I know the thing
that drives me nuts about him iswhen we fight.
(32:12):
I'll be like say something likejust tell him, like I don't even
know if you love me or like me,you know.
And then he's just like andthen he's trying to take all the
things that we talk about.
It's like okay, validate, hegoes.
I get that.
I understand why you feel thatway, like that's not what I mean
.
Like just tell me you love me,okay, well, um I do so cute you
(32:34):
don't seem to listen, and so Ilike like picturing myself in
his position and feeling like no, like I know that he gets
paralysis around, like when hetries to do the right thing,
like he freezes when it comes tomaking the right decision.
He's such an optimizer and Ifelt like so much sympathy for
(32:55):
him as I'm picturing like thefeeling of like, oh, no, no, I
don't know what to do, butfreezing is at least.
Nothing bad is gonna happenhere.
Yeah, I'm like crying and likein the workshop oh, that's so
sweet.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
That's probably so helpful for your marriage,
honestly.
I mean I came home and I waslike I'm sorry, and he was just
like, okay, I think the reframeI've seen my couples really
appreciate is both both thepursuer and the withdrawer
fighting for the relationshipand they're in their own ways.
And it can feel, when you're init, as if it's the opposite.
(33:35):
Right, like the withdrawer,like is literally not fighting,
they're running away, they'rethey're just abdicating, right,
but that's not actually whathappened.
What's happening, like whatyou're saying is no, they're
this is their way of fightingfor it, this is their way of
like keeping everybody safe anddoing the best they know how.
And what we need to do in EFT isto help the couple understand
(33:56):
that these moves make sense andthat they're not a sign of a
lack of love.
And if they are make sense andthat they're not a sign of a
lack of love, and if they are,then that's a different story,
you know.
But broadly, like, they can bean expression of love and same
for the pursuer.
Right, it can feel to thewithdraw like yeah, that's you
fighting for us, like youcalling me names and, you know,
(34:17):
chasing me around the house andmaking me feel like nothing.
But it is, it's trying to belike let's get this out in the
open, like let's do this thing,let's figure this out, like
please be in this with me, umand so, really like recognizing,
like I'm my, I'm the therapist.
I'm not here to shame you.
I'm not here to referee.
I'm not here to tell you who'sright or who's wrong.
(34:39):
I'm here to help you make senseof these moves for each other,
so you can get back tounderstanding like, oh, like, we
do care about this.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, I always talk about this in the workshop.
I always interpreted withdrawalas I don't care or like like a
rejection, like I felt, I feltabandoned in those moments where
I'm like screaming for him tosay something and tell him,
reassure me, and then he's likefreezing up.
I'm like, oh, this is a sign hedoesn't care, right?
(35:12):
It's kind of like all ofinstagram will tell you the same
.
Like people are avoidant, areavoiding real commitment.
They don't really, you know,want love, but no, they're
learning.
They've learned that it's likethe difference between like
they're the benzo, whereas apursuer is a stimulant.
They've learned to stay safe byand stay connected by
(35:37):
de-escalating, by deactivating,getting things calm, not moving,
going, going, slow, right.
So that that really helps mereframe the way I see like
avoidance or that withdrawalpattern.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
What is your experience like as the pursuer?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Thanks for assuming I'm a pursuer, but um, they
taught when they in the workshop.
They talked about pursuers asum like I, I saw it as more
externalizers, ones who chase,ones who use fight rather than
flight right Like go after um,sometimes in the extreme forms,
is like manipulation or controlor pushing or yelling Right.
(36:19):
So I think that pursuers tendto get are more visible Right
and the and the.
The negative dynamic is seen inthe pursuer Like they're the
ones yelling they're the onesdemanding.
Right.
So they, I, I, I identifiedstrongly with the struggle of
the pursuer, feeling likethey're the bad one.
(36:42):
In fact, actually in theworkshop it was so cool they
brought in a couple and then hadthem do a couple's therapy
session in a different room andgot it live streamed into our
workshop.
So all of us therapists werelearning this and it was really
cool to watch.
Because it was a couple.
I felt so sorry for both of them.
(37:04):
They've been therapy for awhile and the man was the
pursuer and the woman had a lotof trauma.
So she was withdrawing thewithdrawer and they had gotten
into a fight the night beforeand they you could see that they
were just like totallydysregulated they were.
(37:25):
They could not get out of thepursuit withdraw cycle.
He was sitting there being likeI don't know what else to do, I
don't.
Does she even love me?
Does she want me?
Like, tell me what to do, tellme what to say.
I can't.
Maybe I'm fighting for nothing,maybe I'm not you, you know
fighting for a relationshipthat's broken, I don't know.
(37:45):
And he, for an hour and a halfhe was just like high, high
levels.
And then the woman was sittingthere like this if you can't see
.
It's just like she just wasstaring straight ahead, looking
almost like disdainful, justlike turning her head away from
him, and just at the, staring atthe therapist, just not saying
(38:06):
anything, and I could reallyfeel like he was like, please,
tell me what to do, tell mefight for me, please.
And she was just like I wouldgo shaking your head if that's
what I was getting to which one?
Speaker 1 (38:19):
the?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
which one?
Which side?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
if, if jason were like, had his hand up and and he
was looking contemptuously andjust silence, I would be
ballistic.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
You're right, it makes you go crazy.
And the interesting thing wasthey both could not come
together, they both couldn'tconnect and the people watching,
all of us watching.
There were so many morecomments about the man like, oh,
he was so dysregulated, I couldsee how hard it was for him to
calm down and and that must havebeen so intense.
(38:52):
And, yeah, the the trainer saidlike, yeah, that was a lot.
I basically had to spend mostof my time trying to calm him
down.
But there he pointed out thatthey're both suffering and I was
like, yeah, we're all of ourattentions to going to the
pursuer, the guy who's likemaking demands because he looks
the most quote abusive andproblematic.
(39:14):
But her being silent is alsopart of that dynamic, right?
Like she was not breaking isalso part of that dynamic.
Right, like she was notbreaking, she was not.
That if you are begging andlike what you pursue, her feels
like they're putting themselvesout there.
They're like asking and beggingto be loved.
Yeah, when the other personshuts down, it's, it's like it's
(39:38):
torture, like it.
I really, I really felt forboth of them.
But the pursuer, it's like thisfeeling of, as you were saying,
like I have to fight forsomeone to love me, otherwise
I'm going to be left alone.
I'm going to be alone here.
Yeah, and they said, like whena pursuer gives up and stops
(40:00):
pursuing, that's when you getinto trouble, because the
withdrawer is not going to comeRight and the pursuer is just
going to give up its.
You know the attempts to graband connect and reengage.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So it's very difficult as a therapist.
It's very difficult as atherapist, you know you're
trying to give kind of equalcare and you know that the
withdrawer in a sense has, youknow, in a way they haven't been
listened to for a long time.
That's why they shut down.
(40:32):
And so then you as a therapist,you don't want to be just yet
one other person who abandonsthem.
And yet you've got this pursuerwho's taking up so much space
in the room, often interrupting,you know, wanting to clarify
and it's fun to work with apursuer because they're
communicative, but you're reallykind of trying to manage affect
(40:54):
and help them make sense ofaffect so that they can share it
, can share it.
I mean, one of the best momentsin my relationship with Jason I
think I've said this on herebefore was when I was being kind
of a bitch to him for no reason, and I don't even know if he
picked up on it.
It was kind of subtle.
I mean, I think a lot of it wasin my head, but I remember
cooling, going in a differentroom and cooling off and then
(41:16):
being like, oh, like I'm being abitch to him for no reason.
I think that's because I don'teven remember what it was
because of, but like I thinkit's because I just like really
want his attention and I'mhaving to share it with his son,
and it's like making me.
I had this great moment where Iwas like, oh, like, I'll go tell
him that because, like I feelso safe in my relationship with
(41:39):
him that I can.
I literally feel safe enough tobe like hey, guess what?
I was just a bitch to you forno reason, because I was feeling
like I wanted your attentionand I was having to compete for
it and I didn't like that andlike that's the kind of thing
that only happens when you feelultimate safety in a
relationship.
Like I would have never saidanything like that to my ex Um,
but that's what, that's what youwant to create in the
environment so that you canregulate right.
(42:00):
So if I can say that to him,then he can be like, okay, I'll
give you some attention.
Like I'm sorry you had to feellike you competed for it, yada,
yada, yada.
And then I feel my needs aremet do you find yourself more in
the?
Speaker 2 (42:16):
do you find yourself more in the withdrawer or the
pursuer position in yourrelationships?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Probably pursuer.
But probably pursuer Becauseyou always identify as someone
with avoidant attachment.
Yeah Well, I think that wasinaccurate.
I think I was just moreinterested in having fun than
(42:44):
being in a relationship backthen.
Uh, I think when Nick uh, Idon't know, it's tough I'm sure
Paul would have said I was thewithdrawer.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
I mean I would say in that relationship you
definitely were the withdrawer.
I remember like you wouldliterally freeze up, right.
You would like try to consolehim because he was more the
aggressor of like yelling at youabout something.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, I mean I was with the withdrawer because I
was getting tons of aggressionand I was out of moves.
There was nothing I could sayor do except for escape.
That was the only thing thatcould reliably kind of calm him
down.
So, uh, yeah, I think I don'tknow, I don't think I have a
clear answer to that.
I mean, it's always made mevery anxious when I can sense
(43:34):
there's conflict but they don'twant to talk about it.
I think I'm more of thewithdrawer in friendships.
But, like with Jason, he has apattern of like he will
definitely talk things out, butthe next day maybe I think
(43:57):
things are resolved, but thenext day he's like hurting from
it and he'll be quite distant.
And that makes me crazy.
What does that look like?
When you say distant, likehe'll okay, we are a very, very
touchy, feely couple andsuddenly you can tell he doesn't
(44:17):
want to touch me, like he will.
If I like, asked to cuddle withhim, he'll put his arm around
me, but it's with no enthusiasm.
He doesn't naturally go for it.
Um, he'll sit on the oppositeside of the couch, he's just
quieter.
I mean, I remember we got inthis huge fight about bullies
and at the end of the night hekind of surrendered, he kind of
(44:43):
let me have my way, and so I washappy, right.
So the next day I was in a goodmood and he was not in a good
mood, um, and we went to visitmy grandmother and on the way he
was distant and cold.
And then when we got there hewas like great outgoing.
I was like, oh, this has curedit, everything's fine now.
And then as soon as we leave,he's like distant, cold again.
And it was just like that thewhole day.
And then at at night I just Ihad been trying to bid for his
(45:04):
attention all day, like tryingto break the ice, and then at
night we go to bed and I justlike started quietly crying and
that's when he's like finallyreached for me and like cuddled.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
But I just cried, oh but you know what, jason, it
broke the cycle.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, jason really treats me like a God.
I can't believe I teared upover that Whoa.
He treats me like a delightfulobject is the wrong word but
like some, something he's alwaysjust delighted by.
And when he's cold to me, I'mlike I can't stand the image of,
(45:50):
I can't stand the loss of thatand like the new image that he
has of me.
So that really makes me crazy.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
What came up for you?
What made you tear up?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Oh Christ, this is affect deep Christ.
This is affect deepening.
This is an EFT move.
Um, yeah, I think anydisconnection with him is very
painful for me.
Um, he is my safe person andwhen I feel disrejected by him,
(46:20):
then that's, I don't know, itjust sucks.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
What goes through you when you feel iced out.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
At first I feel like I can overcome it.
At first I'm like, okay, I'llmake this thing, I'll be really
charming, I'll be like reallycute and charming, and he'll, he
won't be able to resist me.
And then he resists me, andthat's when I start being like,
okay, fine, then I'll reject youtoo, like I'll sit over here.
And then that doesn't workeither, and then it's just very
(46:56):
like I don't know what does gothrough me.
This is the thing I alreadyblocked the affect anxiety,
anger, sadness certainly anxietywhat else?
certainly anxiety.
I'm trying to connect with itand I don't know if I can.
(47:30):
I blocked the affect, I think.
I mean there's, uh, I thinkthat you know, being in like in
bed, like feeling very lonelyand rejected, is like the
hardest moment for me.
Um, I, I don't know that thatwas as hard in other
(47:56):
relationships.
I think I'm so used to beinghis darling that when I'm not
that anymore, then I feel like avery I get like a very insecure
kind of like.
Oh my God, have I broken thisforever?
Like am I never going to, youknow, reclaim that sort of
status in his eyes?
Um, like, I'm very.
(48:17):
I never seen jason mad at me.
I'm sure he has been, but he'snever like, he's never yelled at
me, he's never been short withme, he's never been a dick.
And I'm like I live in fear forthat moment because it feels
like it'll shatter somethingalthough in some ways maybe it
would be good.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I mean depends on anger is really confusing and I
feel like it's often talkedabout like anger is bad, is a
bad thing, but like I wonder ifthat actually be a good thing
one day.
Cause like same with same withAlex, same with my relationship,
where he has been angry with mebut it comes across as very
cold and very like like almostlike kind of a condescending
(48:58):
disgust feeling and which isreally terrible, relax, um, but
I wonder, you know, is some ofthe secure attachment and
co-regulation.
Is like being able to havethese range of emotions together
and still feel safe?
(49:19):
Of course, not like if you'reangry and like you know we don't
want him to, you know, start toget violent or aggressive with
you, but just express anger andhealthy ways that still stay
connected.
Like I'm so pissed at what yousaid the other day, you know,
like something that's that haslike a safety around.
I can be my full self, even theparts of me that feel scary and
(49:43):
vulnerable, and you are thereand see it and stay with me.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, and I would.
It's not that I think I wouldlose love for him, it's that I
don't.
I don't want to shatter theillusion he has of me.
I guess he has of me.
I guess I don't want to seemyself suddenly being something
he's really mad at and so madthat he's willing to treat me
differently.
But obviously we're going tohave to get over that.
(50:13):
It's part of things.
I've been bitchy to him, right,and he's.
I've never yelled at him,though, but he's.
How does he respond when you're?
Speaker 2 (50:25):
bitchy.
How does he respond when you'relike pursuing in that bitchy
way?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
he, he will.
If something feels unfair tohim, he'll say that you know,
and that it's so funny, becauseevery time he does that I'm like
you're not supposed to talkabout how it's unfair.
You're supposed to tell me youlove me, dumbass Like you're,
didn't you know that when I wasbeing bitchy, I was just trying
to, like, you know, get you tolike, tell me that this is the
(50:58):
whole point of the pursuewithdrawal dynamic, right, like
I'm pointing out, like I don'tlike that thing you did.
It made me feel unloved.
So you, you argue, tell me thatthat's not what's happening.
Instead, he's like that wasn'ta fair thing to say.
I try very hard in all of these.
Fine, fuck you then.
And I like lick my wounds for15 minutes.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
I'm like, okay, fine yeah, the fantasy is that you
can have all of your pursue,withdraw defenses and the person
sees underneath it in ways thatyou know you don't have to be
vulnerable.
You'd be like, can't you seethat?
I was just saying that I wantyou to say I love you.
You know, like.
But then if you're beingaggressive or you know pushy or
(51:41):
you know stonewalling, then it'shard for the other person.
It brings up their, all theirdefenses too.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
So everyone got their hackles up and of course I
would do the same.
I mean, I'm very sensitive tolike.
I don't know I can be quitesensitive to unfairness.
I try not to be.
But yeah, I mean, I think he, Ithink like why we work is that
he responds very well to thosethings.
(52:08):
And I, I'm also very regulatedwith like if I sense that I'm
becoming bitchy, then I usuallyam like I gotta go, like I gotta
, I gotta cool down.
This isn't a good.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
I'm not gonna like myself the few fights I've seen
you guys get into, and usuallyit's like you're on the phone
and you're like yelling at himabout making plans or something,
and my impression is that heapologizes and he just
immediately goes okay, I'll dowhatever you want.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
I'm so sorry yeah, I mean it.
Yeah, it depends.
I mean he has a couple thingswhere he's kind of stalwart, um,
like the travel thing.
But I will say he he tends toapologize for a lot of things
that he doesn't need toapologize for and that that
(52:58):
works well because signals to.
It's not that I want himthinking that he's doing wrong
things all the time.
I really don't know.
90% of the time I'm like youreally don't need to apologize
to me for that.
I was not upset, but I do.
I like knowing that he'ssomeone who reflects on his
behavior and is like alwayswanting to make me feel okay and
to like the ship again, likethat gives me a sense of
(53:19):
security.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah I I also that you bring up a good point, that
that over apologizing is likethat fond response.
That's a form of withdrawingright.
It's a form of just being likeokay sorry.
Yeah, you're totally right, yeah, just capitulate, just like
flipping onto your back andbeing submissive.
It's like, yeah, yeah, whateveryou want.
And sometimes that's evenannoying for the pursuer,
(53:44):
because the pursuer wants theconnection they want like a real
person there.
They don't want just like aokay, fine, whatever, because
it's not even.
It feels like they're not evenengaging with it.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
It's just a way to like calm down, calm down, calm
down.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
So right, and it's tough when there's like an over
apology.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
I don't get it like I gave you everything that you
wanted I said you could haveyour way, and it's like I wasn't
trying to have my way.
I was trying for you to love meyou don't want.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
You want to give me my way and actually apologize
for things not apologize foreverything, but just certain
things in a legit, realistic way.
Yeah, okay, fine, got it, gotit, figured it out.
Yeah, it's a weird thing, whenwe did the exercise on the
(54:36):
pursuer, I had this reallyintense insight.
That was, you know, kind ofintense for the trauma that I'm
processing.
But when I was like, yeah, I'mdefinitely a pursuer, I fight
for the connection, I fight forpeople.
But then they had us picturewhat it would be like for a
(54:56):
pursuer to reach, reach, reachand then not get it.
And so you feel like you're allalone and you, you know you
can't fight anymore.
You're all alone and no one'scoming to get you.
Yeah, um, you're supposed tofeel.
I mean, normally people feelsad when they you know it's.
It's really putting yourselfback in the place of feeling
(55:18):
abandoned.
But actually what I felt wasterror, was absolute fear, and I
then I pictured my mom comingat me, like she used to come at
me when I was little likechasing me around the house yeah
yeah, and the ultimate pursuerand I, I imagine like the same
kind of thing of like beingbacked in a corner and trying to
(55:40):
run.
Try, I used to like it was sucha pursue, withdraw dynamic I
literally would run around thehouse trying to find a place
where I could lock a door andeventually, when she removed all
the locks or and all the doors,um, from the hinges, I learned
to like climb out into thebalcony and even to the side of
the building where I almost dieda couple of times, like to the
(56:01):
roof.
Yeah, I mean, I literally waswithdrawing, I was running for
my life and and that's what cameup for me and I was like, oh my
God, I realized that I pursuesituations to make me feel safe,
like I would when I would be inthat position.
I sometimes, if I made it down,like sometimes my mom would
(56:21):
call the doorman to tell themnot to let me downstairs and
lock the door.
But when I could, I would leaveand go to my dad's house, and
so I was pursuing thatconnection to keep me safe from
the one that I was trying towithdraw from.
So I was like, oh, no wonderwhy I don't identify strongly
(56:42):
with avoidant or anxiousattachment.
I'm both.
I'm disorganized, oh funCongratulations.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
Yeah, because you are forever branded with a D.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Nope, disorganized.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
I'm a little bit of both.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yep, disorganized.
I'm a little bit of both, butyeah, I like thinking about how
it's so important for oursurvival and our regulation and
safety to feel close and securewith someone.
Like, secure attachment withsomeone is such a key point for
human survival and sometimes wedon't like to admit it because
(57:20):
that's almost like no, we shouldbe okay by ourselves.
Like no, it's important to feelsafe with people and then we
learn all these different waysto get that safety and sometimes
it's counterproductive.
I'm going to look for theresources.
That's literally like behind.
Oh here it is no-transcript withsue johnson.
(58:01):
This is a little bit more for Ithink it's a little bit more
for clinicians anyway.
But I'll link these two booksto um the resources because I
think they're excellent and I'mlike now at eft die hard.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
It's so funny because sue johnson the kind of looks
like a Dolly Parton-esquecharacter, like big coiffed hair
, southern accent, and yetbrilliant, like she's the total
example of like don't judge abook by its cover.
She's like this therapy isabsolutely brilliant.
So like yeah, getting Hold MeTight, great idea, great idea
(58:36):
for couples she passed away lastyear.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
Do you know that?
Yeah, and apparently like tight, great idea, great idea for
couples.
She passed away last year.
Do you know that?
Yeah, and apparently likeeveryone loved her, she, they
said that she was like a lovelyperson, um, so it was a real big
loss.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
So hold me tight all righty.
Well, we'll be back withanother episode on this topic.
I think I'm also going to talkabout my dissertation, maybe
next week.
So we've got some fun stuffcoming up and if you would like
to help us co-regulate and getto our vulnerable under the line
(59:09):
of vulnerability, you couldtell us that you love us with a
five-star reading on ApplePodcasts and Spotify and a
little comment, and we'll seeyou next week Spotify in the
little comment, and we'll seeyou next week by accessing this
podcast.
I acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
(59:29):
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
(59:53):
or through Thank you consideredor used as a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
.
The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
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presented or mentioned in thispodcast and information from
(01:00:15):
this podcast should not bereferenced in any way to imply
such approval or endorsement.
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hello, little helpers.
Today we are going to talkabout something that comes from
a couples therapy intervention,called emotion-focused therapy.
It's something I've been doingall year.
(00:21):
Kibbe just did a workshop on it, so we're jazzed up to talk
about this.
Couples therapy is something Ilove to do and obviously, as you
all know, we love talking aboutromance on this show.
So today we're going to talkabout a couple dynamic that can
cause problems, and that is thepursuer-withdrawer dynamic.
(00:43):
So we're going to get into thattoday.
But first I'm going to kick itoff to Kim to talk about Cool of
Mind, and then I think we'regoing to do some life updates.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks.
So Cool of Mind is our platformthat we're really making for
you all, you little helpers, tohelp you learn the skills to
support a loved one with emotiondysregulation.
So I've noticed that a lot ofpeople who've been reaching out
are people who have, like ahusband or a wife who might have
(01:11):
some anger issues and tend toexplode with emotion and the
person doesn't know what to do.
They want to also, they want tobe able to set boundaries so it
doesn't get dangerous, but theyalso want to help their loved
one too.
So that is the that is likewhat people have been reaching
out for help with.
So I wanted to talk aboutsomething exciting that in July,
(01:32):
in mid-July, we're going tostart a group course on this.
So, yeah, so if you'reinterested and just want to
learn more about workingone-on-one with me or to join
the group, you can reach out toKulamindcom or the link in the
show notes to book a call withme to just chat about it Awesome
(01:54):
.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Now I kind of want to teach that yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Best believe that I'm going to rope you into teaching
a couple, a couple sessions,especially on any of your
favorite topics.
So yeah, Jacqueline will alsobe teaching the group.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Well, I guess that's just fine right now.
My life, well, my life update,I guess, is that I'm going to be
a psychologist soon andtherefore we'll be able to be
roped into your practice.
Yeah, so.
I'm defending my education onFriday and then that's kind of
it.
Then I just have to survive inmy internship for another three
months, which is great, and thenI get to be a doctor.
(02:33):
How are you feeling Really good?
I mean, I'm going to my likefeelings of excitement are
slightly suspended because Ihave to get through this hurdle
first.
But, um, and I'm likeanticipating, every time I go
into a major hurdle, I'm like Ialways think it's going to feel
(02:53):
like this watershed, you knowemotional day, and then instead
it's kind of like oh huh, okay,well, this is just another day,
but I'm going to try to reallylet this one sink in.
I mean, it took me it was sucha journey getting into my PhD
program, um, or any PhD program,and so the fact that it's right
(03:17):
around the bend is kind of wild.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I know that is crazy.
I mean I just I remember whenwe first met.
I remember talking on Skype forthe first time and meeting at
the bar after your interview andI can't believe, like you're
done now.
So this is, this is huge.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I know.
I mean, we finally get to be atwo psychologist headed podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
That's exciting that's exciting, yeah, yeah, and
I'd love to.
When you know we're going to doan episode on what you learned
in your dissertation, but alsowe could talk about like your
whole journey, oh we're gonna doa grad school episode in three
months Unfiltered.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I've been like rehearsing this episode, the
grad school episode, for months.
I'm gonna and I'm like I've gotlike an angry version I'm not
gonna do, and then I've got likea gracious version that I'll
also probably not do.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
We'll make it a juicy one.
Juicy spilling the tea it wasjuicy, six years.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
To be honest, yeah, it was Starting with the
interview.
I mean, I went to thatinterview and hated it, and then
the thing that turned me aroundwas getting drunk with you and
Caitlin, yeah, and dragging youthrough six more years of pain
and suffering, so you're welcome.
It's so funny because I toldyou guys I was a gold digger and
(04:43):
you seemed to like love that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
And then that's how I got into grad school.
Yeah, man, I'm like, this girlis honest.
You know, this girl.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It's like an interesting amount of
self-awareness.
Yeah, I bet not too many peoplesay that at an interview, no
sit down.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
What's going on?
All right.
Well, I mean last episode wedug in deep into my childhood
trauma.
People are really nice, I mean,all you guys have been really
really sweet.
I want to respond to messageson on youtube especially, but
people, um, were really kind andreally supportive about me
opening up that much.
For people who haven't listened, I talked a lot about, I guess,
(05:35):
like childhood trauma that I'mkind of coping with and
realizing now, realizing theeffects of them and then how
I've had all these defensemechanisms over it, like feeling
really angry and then trying tocontrol that anger and all that
stuff.
So the past, ever since we didthe episode, I think, I've been,
uh, kind of, you know, in atrauma state, like a triggered
(05:58):
state.
Um, some days I felt reallyshaky and just kind of foggy and
I, you know, I found it reallyhard to focus on like details
and you know, like things on myschedule slipped my attention,
like I just was like a mess andI felt really shaky and insecure
.
So I kind of felt like as if Iwas like porous, like not my
(06:21):
normal full bodied self, but asif I was like a shaky leaf.
Um, so it just reminded me of,like, what trauma does and like
what happens when youre-experience it or reprocess it
.
You just feel like you're in itall over again.
Uh, so that was rough, but I'mfeeling a little bit better now.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Um is this something you're going to continue
processing, continue doing intherapy?
Is this something you're goingto continue processing, continue
doing in therapy?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I think so.
I think the question I had waswhy didn't more people help me
which I think that I've beentalking to people who knew me,
like therapists and other people, where the way I coped with a
lot of this kind of abusivechildhood experiences was
through anger and also likehyper, you know, being hyper
(07:09):
vigilant and working a lot andbeing like a star student.
So I was really like angry andfighting with my boyfriend and
breaking up with him all thetime, you know, being kind of uh
, I don't know like irritableand um in in and apparently like
I talked a lot about boytrouble back then, like being
angry with boyfriends.
But people are starting to saythat when they knew me back then
(07:35):
they didn't know the extent ofthe abuse, they didn't know how
bad it was with my mom.
So there's been sometimes likea kind of a community
reprocessing where it's like, oh, no wonder why you were so
angry or so focused on gettingout and working hard and how
angry you are with yourboyfriend because you know all
(07:57):
of this stuff that you wentthrough.
It just seemed like peopledidn't know how bad it was,
which that's kind of makes mesad.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I think how has this?
Are you just like calling themup and saying, hey, I want to
talk about this, and thendescribing what happened, Like
how is it happening that they'refinding out?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
No, I'm just talking to my therapist about the extent
of what happened, like all thedetails and stories that I
thought she knew but she reallydidn't, and also some family
members.
My grandma just moved to adifferent place, so there's a
lot of, you know, old stuff, oldfamily stuff that's being moved
around, and there are some oldjournals of mine, old emails
(08:36):
that I've sent my grandparentsthat when you look at it like it
didn't seem like anything LikeI described a dream where I
where I wrote this when I was 14.
I had a dream where I wasthrown in jail and I didn't know
why, but basically I found outthat I can never leave and I
found out that my mom was theone who had me locked up and she
(08:59):
basically said well, it's myfault that we're locked up, but
it's if it weren't for yourstupid father.
And so the end of the dream.
I realized that I was liketrapped in this forever, and now
that makes sense, right.
That like, I'm like oh yeah, Iknow what that feels like.
I feel trapped.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
It's amazing when dreams can really nail it.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, so if people I mean the moral of the story is
that people are in a toughsituation and they're angry I
kind of wish I wish I learnedhow to express it better to get,
actually, you know, the helpthat I needed.
But especially with children,when kids are really angry and
they have an unstable household,I think the better question,
(09:46):
instead of like what's wrongwith you or punishing them, is
like how can we help you?
Like what's going on?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
What are they struggling with?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, like, like, what are they coping with, with
this anger, instead of justblaming them, which I feel like
I got a lot of like blame andpunishment, and this like view
of myself is like a bad angryperson, when really it was like
a way to cope.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So is your view of yourself shifting at all, or is
it too early for that?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
It's making, it's destabilizing.
I think it's making me reallyconfused.
What's real?
Also, it doesn't help that mymom, I think, probably listening
to the episode, texted mesaying you're delusional and
none of that stuff happened.
So that is taking space,because I can't, I can't even,
but it's letting me believe,like what was real, like was I
(10:38):
really a problematic kid or aremy memories real?
You know, just kind of almost, Idon't know.
Just I'm like fractured intopieces.
Is it a problematic case?
I think it's.
My inner voice is always liketrying to cope with this belief
that I was or am a bad person.
(11:00):
And I know that's not logicalwhen I say it out loud, like I
know my life and how I treatpeople, but there's always a
part of me that's like, oh, I'vehad to overcome being a bad
person.
And then I'm like was I?
Yes, no, so I.
Just the view of myself is nowfeeling like it's all muddled
(11:21):
and I don't know what to trust.
Yay, healing.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
It's all muddled and I don't know what to trust.
Yay healing.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
So I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Only took 39 years and cancer to get here.
But here I am.
How are you doing physically?
Has the hormone started Much?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
better, much better.
Now I'm going to start hormonetherapy soon to Voxfin.
I'm really scared becausethat's supposed to put me into
menopause.
So if the next episodes are mejust screaming about hot flashes
, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Do some menopause episodes.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Do some hormonal hormonal episodes, but I'm I'm
through the major part, I'mcancer free and this is all
about preventing it.
So I'm kind of like it almostkind of feels like a a new start
in many ways, like new start tomy body and you start to the
way I see myself, new start tomotherhood and me as a
professional helping otherpeople going through stuff that
(12:26):
I went through.
So it's like it kind of feelslike a rebirth in a way.
It doesn't feel as like amazing, as like a phoenix rising from
the ashes.
Right, it feels like I'm justlike dragging myself out from
the rubble.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
It'd be nice if it were more eat, pray, love, but
it's more.
Yeah, I want to go to bali andjust eat javier bardem and then,
yeah, find myself.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
But you know, we all get to get to where we're going
some way all right.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Well, speaking of fucking javier bardem, why don't
we move into our discussion ofromance?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Okay, this is making me thinkabout Vicky Cristina Barcelona,
one of my favorite movies of alltimes.
Is he in it?
Yeah, have you not seen it,jacqueline?
Your homework after this is towatch that movie.
We're going to talk about thisepisode, and the next one is
going to be all about couples,dynamics and problematic ones,
(13:29):
and disconnection and connection.
You have to watch that movie,it's so good.
Vicky Cristina Barcelona.
It's a Woody Allen movie withJavier Bardem, scarlett
Johansson, penelope Cruz and Iforgot her other name but the
three most beautiful, sensualwomen in all sorts of ways.
You have to watch it.
Everyone listening got to watchthat movie.
(13:50):
If you haven't.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Tell me about the Pursuer Withdrawal thing.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
You tell me Okay, so emotion is it emotionally
focused?
Therapy Is it?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
is it emotion focused therapy?
Is it?
Is it emotion focused therapy?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Okay so emotion focused therapy is this amazing
couples therapy modality thatyou've been learning a lot and I
just did an intensive trainingI think it was last week and it
really it was so beautifulbecause it it just tied together
attachment theory andattachment needs with couples
dynamics and then what to doabout it and emotion regulation,
(14:29):
so really just like it was likeeverything I was looking for
and my mind is still blown fromit.
And yeah, you've been.
You've been doing it all year,right?
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, I'm in an EFT rotation, so I've been working
with couples for about ninemonths now and doing a weekly
like supervision and didactics.
Um, I'll be honest, I mean, thecouple that I worked with
primarily was extraordinarilydifficult, and so my confidence
in myself doing EFT is like alittle bit low.
Um, but I I love the model andit's like if I could master EFT
(15:06):
I would feel like a superstar.
It's like all of my growthedges in one.
It would make me into thepsychologist I want to be.
So I'm actually joining apractice as a postdoc next year
with an EFT focus as well, soit's going to be a big part of
my work.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Nice.
Well, why don't you say whatthe basic model is or the goal
is for EFT, and then we can yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
So the so?
Uh, I'm not going to get too inthe weeds, but basically the
way I would think about it isyou have a couple and they've
been, uh, they've been missingeach other, right?
So if we think about any couple, any person is going to make
bids, like bids for attention,bids for love, and the way we
(15:51):
kind of react to those bids isimportant and what will often
happen is, over time or becauseof our dynamic or because of our
attachment history, we're notresponding optimally to our
partner and we're getting into acycle where what's really
happening emotionally issomething like I want love, I
(16:14):
want to know that you care aboutme.
I don't know how to get thatfrom you, but I'm trying.
But how that's expressed comesacross very differently.
It can come across aggressively, like um yeah, why can't you
ever do the dishes?
Or like why, why aren't wehaving sex?
Like what do you even give ashit, right?
(16:36):
So it's like it comes across asreally confronting and shaming.
But what it's really saying islike I have an unmet need and I
want you to fill it, and I don'tunderstand why you're not
filling it, and I just want youto show up for me, right, and
show me that you value me, andthat tends to be more the
pursuer.
Like I am somebody.
(16:58):
Maybe I have an attachmenthistory where if I wasn't the
one to speak up, no one elsewould.
Maybe I have an attachmenthistory where, in order to have
people pay attention to me, Ihave to be as loud as possible,
I have to make myself seen,because otherwise I'm just going
(17:18):
to go unnoticed.
And so you know, I'm going togo after it.
I'm going to want to resolveconflicts right away.
I mean, I like I'm going to bethe person who says we can't go
to bed without resolving this.
We have to talk about it, wehave to get it out in the open,
we have to.
Let's have this fight, let'sjust do it Like, come on, come
(17:38):
on, come on.
Like, connect with me.
You know, like, don't, don'tmove away from me, don't ignore
me, Don't right, don't disappear.
Like, in order for me to feelsecure, you have to be in this
with me and you have to becommunicating with me.
And, um, and what the otherperson, the kind of withdrawer
in the dynamic, might be doingis saying oh God, I don't know
(18:01):
how to respond to this.
Um, either, it might be likethis is a lot of intensity that
I, like, my nervous system can'tregulate, or it might be
something like, god, I can't doanything right, like you know.
Yet again, like, okay, fine, Ididn't take the trash out, I
(18:21):
didn't do the dishes, but like,do you ever notice what I do do
right?
Like I just feel likeeverything I do is not enough
and it just makes me want tohide and disappear and withdraw.
And you know what they'resaying, kind of underneath right
is like why am I not goodenough?
Like how can I be good enough?
I don't.
I keep trying but nothinghappens.
And I'm afraid to like, I'mafraid to speak up, I'm afraid
(18:43):
to tussle with you because it'sreally just regulating for me
and I don't know what's going tohappen and I'm too scared of a
blow up because that couldfracture us forever.
And I'm too scared of a blow upbecause that could fracture us
forever.
So their attachment historymight be really different.
Right, they might be theconciliatory one growing up,
they might be the one whoseneeds never mattered, and so
they just learned to keep themto themselves and keep quiet.
(19:04):
They might have come from ahome where people were really
like loud and aggressive andscary, and so they learned to
like keep, you know, keep theirfeelings for themselves and kind
of hide away with it.
And so, really, you have bothpeople in the couple longing for
each other and longing foracceptance.
But the way that they'recommunicating is basically
(19:26):
creating a moment of like oh ineach person.
And as soon as that oh happens,like oh, okay, I didn't, I
didn't do the trash.
Oh, okay, uh-oh, uh-oh, thisfeels bad, this feels bad.
Okay, now I'm reacting fromthis place of like insecurity
and like unsafeness, and so I'mgoing to uh.
And then that like withdraw andsends them like an uh-oh to the
(19:47):
pursuer who's like oh, my God,they're withdrawing from me
again.
They clearly don't care aboutme, only care about themselves.
What can I do to get them tolove me?
Okay, I'll just chase them down, so they'll have to talk to me,
so this anxiety can go away andit's just us back and forth.
Yeah, Would you say.
That resonates with yourworkshop.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, and I love that they summarized and said you
know the goal is.
They call it COCO, which Iloved, which is co-regulation
and co-creation of meaning.
So I love that they said that.
In EFT they say you know, theresearch shows this is really
(20:26):
sad that 70% of couple problemsdon't get resolved ever.
So what that means is likeyou're thinking about all the
fights that you're having withyour partner.
Now.
You're gonna have them probably70 percent forever, but it's
less about what you're fightingabout and, like Esther Perel,
(20:46):
says a lot how you're fighting.
So, if the idea is okay, inthese fights, the problem is
that when a couple can'tco-regulate, they can't come
together and then calm down andreally attune to each other's
needs in that moment.
When we talk about emotionregulation, I don't want to say
(21:14):
like it's a way that everyoneneeds to keep calm, but it's
like if one person is sad andfeeling disconnected or
vulnerable or scared or whatever, what's regulating is that for
for the partner to see that andbe with them in it and then they
create meaning around it, right?
So it's really that comingtogether and connecting that's
really important.
And as you were saying, peoplehave different, learn different,
(21:36):
coping mechanisms.
To get that right Like thepursuer pursues.
They push, they demand, theyscream they.
Why don't you?
They come at you, right,sometimes, literally like
walking, you know, chasing thatother person and the other one
withdraws, right, the the avoid,shut down, freezes like this.
(21:56):
I and I love thinking about thisbecause I'm so sick of the way
attachment theory is talkedabout in instagram and social
media it's like what are you?
Are you avoidant or are youanxious?
Yeah, like anxious people, theyjust need love and and you just
learn that you're good enoughon your own.
And avoidance you suck and youshould just stop hating people
(22:19):
so much.
You're trash, right.
And it didn't really make anysense to me because, although
people tend to pursue more oravoid more or withdraw more, but
to put people in like twocategories or actually three
categories one's like you'reperfect, don't worry about it,
right To be.
Like you chase too much or yourun away too much.
(22:41):
That didn't.
That felt too simplistic to bereal.
So I like how this is talkingabout.
This is your dynamic, this ishow this is like.
You are feeling alone,disconnected and and scared, and
you want your partner in itwith you.
And how do you get that?
Yeah, so it's really more likewhat you're doing in a position
(23:01):
than a person, because what alsocan happen is if you know the
pursuer goes hey, come on, whydon't you do the dishes?
Come on, like what's going on,right, and like pursues, pursues
, and the withdrawer pulls awayand shuts down.
It's like I don't know, I don'tknow, I don't know.
Okay, fine, whatever,eventually, if that that.
So the withdrawer withdraws andthey that signals the pursuer
(23:25):
oh my God, I'm being abandoned,I have to go chase, right.
So it's this kind of likereciprocal, like withdraw,
withdraw, chase, chase, chase.
So it's this kind of likereciprocal, like withdraw,
withdraw, chase, chase chase.
So it's like a cycle.
And then often, when that cyclegets so extreme, they switch,
the withdrawer snaps and goeslike fine, get it, you know,
like what do you want?
And then the and then thepursuer gives up right, shuts
(23:47):
down.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
So it's fine, I don't want to be the one always
fighting for this.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
So there really is always like kind of a back and
forth and, as you said, it'sjust like a pattern of missing
each other.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, so yeah, I think the kind of one of the
goals you're saying, like theco-regulation piece, for
instance is there's this movecalled tempo, and this is kind
of one of the major things thatthe psychologist is trying to do
with the couple.
Um, so the first, basically,what you're trying to do is say,
(24:19):
I like to call it the line ofvulnerability.
So, like below the line ofvulnerability, is what's really
going on, like in your heart,right when it's like I want to
know that you love me.
I want, can I want you in thisfeeling with me, so that you can
help me, so that I know thatyou're there for me, right?
Um, and the?
You know it might be like thewhy?
(24:40):
Why do you think I doeverything wrong?
Why am I not good enough?
Why, like that's all the stuffthat needs to be communicated,
but instead is communicatedineffectively, kind of above the
line of vulnerability.
That's like why don't you nevertake the trash out?
Like, why am I?
Do you just like you're justexpecting to do everything for
you, like while you're justfucking around?
It's like that kind of stuff,um, but so what?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
what you're really gonna look like right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So you're gonna like look at this, at like the latest
fight, right, and you're gonnatry to locate for each person,
what was the first oh.
So this is the T in tempo whichis trigger.
So like, when was that firstmoment where you go, oh, this is
something doesn't feel good,something doesn't feel good and
I have to respond to it.
So once you kind of have thetrigger, you know, located, then
(25:31):
you can say, okay, that waswhat started all of this.
What did that trigger sort ofsay to me, like, what was the
emotion that came up when thattrigger happened?
Because then, as we know,emotions have action urges and
they propel us into doing thingsthat maybe otherwise we
wouldn't do.
So, like with the trash example, it's like my trigger was
(25:52):
seeing that the trash hadn'tbeen taken out and the emotion
that I felt was anger.
Well, the next thing you haveto understand is, like, what's
the meaning of that trigger toyou?
How did you interpret whathappened?
The interpretation was hedoesn't care about me, he
doesn't care about me, hedoesn't respect me.
(26:13):
So it's like, okay, if that'sthe meaning that you're
assigning to that action, thenlike, of course you're going to
be mad, right, and of course,you're going to be kind of a
tacky.
What was the protective action?
This is P.
What was the protective actionthat you took because of that
emotion?
How did you try to protect yoursense of self, your sense of
(26:33):
worth?
Right, like your sense of self,your sense of worth right, like
your sense of self-esteem?
Okay, the protection action Itook was I'm not just gonna sit
here and take it, I'm not justgonna be a wife who does
everything for her husband.
I'm gonna call him on it, youknow, and I'm gonna tell him
that I'm mad.
It's like oh, okay, that makessense, because you're worried
that if you don't do that,you're gonna disrespect yourself
, because you already feeldisrespected.
(26:54):
And now you'd have two peopledoing it instead of just one.
And then the O is what thetherapist does, which is just
organize it.
So it's like helping you totell that story.
Then you move over to the otherperson, right?
So your trigger was being blamedfor not taking the trash out.
Oh, the emotion you experiencedwas like anxiety.
The meaning you said was oh,I'm just never good enough, I
(27:15):
can never do anything, right.
So your protective action wasto shut down and not talk about
it, because you don't want to befurther accused of this and you
feel like you can't explain.
If you never do anything, right, then how are you going to
explain it?
You don't do anything, right?
So of course you're not goingto explain it, right?
So then you're going to run andhide, right?
So that's a protective actionand what we want to get the
people to do, the.
(27:37):
When I saw that the trash wasn'ttaken out, I got angry because
I thought that that meant youdidn't care about me and didn't
respect me, and that made mewant to attack you and, you know
, get really mad at you and tellyou exactly how I felt.
But I want you to know that,like, really, that was about me
fearing that you don't want me,you don't love me, because once
(28:03):
you can, once the other partnercan understand that it's like oh
, it's not that I, it's not thatI do everything wrong, it's
that she's really longing for meto show her that I love her and
she's experiencing some of thethings I do as as a real, like,
attachment wound.
It's not about like, am I goodat chores, right, and so then
that kind of that's, that's thatvulnerability that allows the
partner to then responddifferently.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, yeah, and what you're talking about is a form
of assessment, like reallygetting people to tune to what
was going on in those conflictpatterns and be like, okay,
let's see that pursue withdrawdynamic and the really cool
thing about it is that it'sabout the couples and to stop
blaming each other and stop likegetting at each other with
(28:46):
these hard emotions, with apursuit like stonewalling and
fighting right, but to more see,hey, this is, we're tackling
this negative cycle together.
This pursue withdraw is a thingthat's happening and we got to
come together to figure it out.
Yeah, I, I also.
I also find it so validating tohear this model and because
(29:11):
it's basically it gives a lot oflegitimacy to the idea that
when you don't feel connected toyour partner, the person who's
supposed to be your rock, yourfoundation, your you know,
literally partner, it's crazymaking right.
Like it.
You know to feel like someonedoesn't care about you or
someone doesn't see you.
It drives you nuts, especiallyif you had an insecure
(29:34):
attachment or abandonment issuesgrowing up right.
So for this to escalate thatquickly and to kind of go into
these default coping mechanismsand make sense, but yeah, what I
was so powerful in the workshopwas that they described they
took one day to talk about thewithdraw or and then one day to
(29:55):
talk about the pursuer and I'vealways was like am I more
avoidant or am I more anxious?
Right, we've always talkedabout that.
Like am I avoidant?
But it's, it's really cool.
They describe the withdraweralmost like the internalizer,
the fixer, people pleaser, theone who tends to be more, like
they said, like more detailedoriented and conscientious, but
(30:18):
really I think it's more of this.
People pleaser the one who haslearned that you can get safety
and your needs met bydeescalating.
So maybe they grew up in anenvironment where it was
explosive and chaotic and theylearned okay, my job, if I need
to get my needs met, I got tocalm everyone down, avoid
(30:40):
conflict and the fear that'sdriving.
That is so sad.
It's like if we keep going likethis, if we keep escalating.
Something terrible is going tohappen.
There's going to be.
We're going to say something wedon't mean, something that we
can't take back.
We're going to do something todamage the relationship or our
kids, or something, butcontinuing this escalation is
(31:04):
bad.
So what do I do?
Is I?
I freeze?
And the thing is that it mightbe obvious that the withdraw,
the freezing, stonewalling ismaking it worse, but they feel
like they're in, they feel likethere's so much pressure, like
they're walking on eggshells orwalking in a landmine where they
go.
Well, I, I know that's freezingis bad, but I also think that
(31:32):
it's not as bad as escalating.
Right, so this is like thelesser of two evils, but I feel
like I'm trying so hard to makeeverything work and deescalate
and keep everyone calm andmediate and I'm still not being
successful.
I'm a failure.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
So it's so sad because when we did this like
experience exercise where weclosed our eyes and like put
ourselves in the in the positionof a withdrawer, and there was
parts of it I really resonatedwith.
But I really pictured Alex, myhusband and I know the thing
that drives me nuts about him iswhen we fight.
(32:12):
I'll be like say something likejust tell him, like I don't even
know if you love me or like me,you know.
And then he's just like andthen he's trying to take all the
things that we talk about.
It's like okay, validate, hegoes.
I get that.
I understand why you feel thatway, like that's not what I mean
.
Like just tell me you love me,okay, well, um I do so cute you
(32:34):
don't seem to listen, and so Ilike like picturing myself in
his position and feeling like no, like I know that he gets
paralysis around, like when hetries to do the right thing,
like he freezes when it comes tomaking the right decision.
He's such an optimizer and Ifelt like so much sympathy for
(32:55):
him as I'm picturing like thefeeling of like, oh, no, no, I
don't know what to do, butfreezing is at least.
Nothing bad is gonna happenhere.
Yeah, I'm like crying and likein the workshop oh, that's so
sweet.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
That's probably so helpful for your marriage,
honestly.
I mean I came home and I waslike I'm sorry, and he was just
like, okay, I think the reframeI've seen my couples really
appreciate is both both thepursuer and the withdrawer
fighting for the relationshipand they're in their own ways.
And it can feel, when you're init, as if it's the opposite.
(33:35):
Right, like the withdrawer,like is literally not fighting,
they're running away, they'rethey're just abdicating, right,
but that's not actually whathappened.
What's happening, like whatyou're saying is no, they're
this is their way of fightingfor it, this is their way of
like keeping everybody safe anddoing the best they know how.
And what we need to do in EFT isto help the couple understand
(33:56):
that these moves make sense andthat they're not a sign of a
lack of love.
And if they are make sense andthat they're not a sign of a
lack of love, and if they are,then that's a different story,
you know.
But broadly, like, they can bean expression of love and same
for the pursuer.
Right, it can feel to thewithdraw like yeah, that's you
fighting for us, like youcalling me names and, you know,
(34:17):
chasing me around the house andmaking me feel like nothing.
But it is, it's trying to belike let's get this out in the
open, like let's do this thing,let's figure this out, like
please be in this with me, umand so, really like recognizing,
like I'm my, I'm the therapist.
I'm not here to shame you.
I'm not here to referee.
I'm not here to tell you who'sright or who's wrong.
(34:39):
I'm here to help you make senseof these moves for each other,
so you can get back tounderstanding like, oh, like, we
do care about this.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, I always talk about this in the workshop.
I always interpreted withdrawalas I don't care or like like a
rejection, like I felt, I feltabandoned in those moments where
I'm like screaming for him tosay something and tell him,
reassure me, and then he's likefreezing up.
I'm like, oh, this is a sign hedoesn't care, right?
(35:12):
It's kind of like all ofinstagram will tell you the same
.
Like people are avoidant, areavoiding real commitment.
They don't really, you know,want love, but no, they're
learning.
They've learned that it's likethe difference between like
they're the benzo, whereas apursuer is a stimulant.
They've learned to stay safe byand stay connected by
(35:37):
de-escalating, by deactivating,getting things calm, not moving,
going, going, slow, right.
So that that really helps mereframe the way I see like
avoidance or that withdrawalpattern.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
What is your experience like as the pursuer?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Thanks for assuming I'm a pursuer, but um, they
taught when they in the workshop.
They talked about pursuers asum like I, I saw it as more
externalizers, ones who chase,ones who use fight rather than
flight right Like go after um,sometimes in the extreme forms,
is like manipulation or controlor pushing or yelling Right.
(36:19):
So I think that pursuers tendto get are more visible Right
and the and the.
The negative dynamic is seen inthe pursuer Like they're the
ones yelling they're the onesdemanding.
Right.
So they, I, I, I identifiedstrongly with the struggle of
the pursuer, feeling likethey're the bad one.
(36:42):
In fact, actually in theworkshop it was so cool they
brought in a couple and then hadthem do a couple's therapy
session in a different room andgot it live streamed into our
workshop.
So all of us therapists werelearning this and it was really
cool to watch.
Because it was a couple.
I felt so sorry for both of them.
(37:04):
They've been therapy for awhile and the man was the
pursuer and the woman had a lotof trauma.
So she was withdrawing thewithdrawer and they had gotten
into a fight the night beforeand they you could see that they
were just like totallydysregulated they were.
(37:25):
They could not get out of thepursuit withdraw cycle.
He was sitting there being likeI don't know what else to do, I
don't.
Does she even love me?
Does she want me?
Like, tell me what to do, tellme what to say.
I can't.
Maybe I'm fighting for nothing,maybe I'm not you, you know
fighting for a relationshipthat's broken, I don't know.
(37:45):
And he, for an hour and a halfhe was just like high, high
levels.
And then the woman was sittingthere like this if you can't see
.
It's just like she just wasstaring straight ahead, looking
almost like disdainful, justlike turning her head away from
him, and just at the, staring atthe therapist, just not saying
(38:06):
anything, and I could reallyfeel like he was like, please,
tell me what to do, tell mefight for me, please.
And she was just like I wouldgo shaking your head if that's
what I was getting to which one?
Speaker 1 (38:19):
the?
Speaker 2 (38:19):
which one?
Which side?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
if, if jason were like, had his hand up and and he
was looking contemptuously andjust silence, I would be
ballistic.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
You're right, it makes you go crazy.
And the interesting thing wasthey both could not come
together, they both couldn'tconnect and the people watching,
all of us watching.
There were so many morecomments about the man like, oh,
he was so dysregulated, I couldsee how hard it was for him to
calm down and and that must havebeen so intense.
(38:52):
And, yeah, the the trainer saidlike, yeah, that was a lot.
I basically had to spend mostof my time trying to calm him
down.
But there he pointed out thatthey're both suffering and I was
like, yeah, we're all of ourattentions to going to the
pursuer, the guy who's likemaking demands because he looks
the most quote abusive andproblematic.
(39:14):
But her being silent is alsopart of that dynamic, right?
Like she was not breaking isalso part of that dynamic.
Right, like she was notbreaking, she was not.
That if you are begging andlike what you pursue, her feels
like they're putting themselvesout there.
They're like asking and beggingto be loved.
Yeah, when the other personshuts down, it's, it's like it's
(39:38):
torture, like it.
I really, I really felt forboth of them.
But the pursuer, it's like thisfeeling of, as you were saying,
like I have to fight forsomeone to love me, otherwise
I'm going to be left alone.
I'm going to be alone here.
Yeah, and they said, like whena pursuer gives up and stops
(40:00):
pursuing, that's when you getinto trouble, because the
withdrawer is not going to comeRight and the pursuer is just
going to give up its.
You know the attempts to graband connect and reengage.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So it's very difficult as a therapist.
It's very difficult as atherapist, you know you're
trying to give kind of equalcare and you know that the
withdrawer in a sense has, youknow, in a way they haven't been
listened to for a long time.
That's why they shut down.
(40:32):
And so then you as a therapist,you don't want to be just yet
one other person who abandonsthem.
And yet you've got this pursuerwho's taking up so much space
in the room, often interrupting,you know, wanting to clarify
and it's fun to work with apursuer because they're
communicative, but you're reallykind of trying to manage affect
(40:54):
and help them make sense ofaffect so that they can share it
, can share it.
I mean, one of the best momentsin my relationship with Jason I
think I've said this on herebefore was when I was being kind
of a bitch to him for no reason, and I don't even know if he
picked up on it.
It was kind of subtle.
I mean, I think a lot of it wasin my head, but I remember
cooling, going in a differentroom and cooling off and then
(41:16):
being like, oh, like I'm being abitch to him for no reason.
I think that's because I don'teven remember what it was
because of, but like I thinkit's because I just like really
want his attention and I'mhaving to share it with his son,
and it's like making me.
I had this great moment where Iwas like, oh, like, I'll go tell
him that because, like I feelso safe in my relationship with
(41:39):
him that I can.
I literally feel safe enough tobe like hey, guess what?
I was just a bitch to you forno reason, because I was feeling
like I wanted your attentionand I was having to compete for
it and I didn't like that andlike that's the kind of thing
that only happens when you feelultimate safety in a
relationship.
Like I would have never saidanything like that to my ex Um,
but that's what, that's what youwant to create in the
environment so that you canregulate right.
(42:00):
So if I can say that to him,then he can be like, okay, I'll
give you some attention.
Like I'm sorry you had to feellike you competed for it, yada,
yada, yada.
And then I feel my needs aremet do you find yourself more in
the?
Speaker 2 (42:16):
do you find yourself more in the withdrawer or the
pursuer position in yourrelationships?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Probably pursuer.
But probably pursuer Becauseyou always identify as someone
with avoidant attachment.
Yeah Well, I think that wasinaccurate.
I think I was just moreinterested in having fun than
(42:44):
being in a relationship backthen.
Uh, I think when Nick uh, Idon't know, it's tough I'm sure
Paul would have said I was thewithdrawer.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
I mean I would say in that relationship you
definitely were the withdrawer.
I remember like you wouldliterally freeze up, right.
You would like try to consolehim because he was more the
aggressor of like yelling at youabout something.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, I mean I was with the withdrawer because I
was getting tons of aggressionand I was out of moves.
There was nothing I could sayor do except for escape.
That was the only thing thatcould reliably kind of calm him
down.
So, uh, yeah, I think I don'tknow, I don't think I have a
clear answer to that.
I mean, it's always made mevery anxious when I can sense
(43:34):
there's conflict but they don'twant to talk about it.
I think I'm more of thewithdrawer in friendships.
But, like with Jason, he has apattern of like he will
definitely talk things out, butthe next day maybe I think
(43:57):
things are resolved, but thenext day he's like hurting from
it and he'll be quite distant.
And that makes me crazy.
What does that look like?
When you say distant, likehe'll okay, we are a very, very
touchy, feely couple andsuddenly you can tell he doesn't
(44:17):
want to touch me, like he will.
If I like, asked to cuddle withhim, he'll put his arm around
me, but it's with no enthusiasm.
He doesn't naturally go for it.
Um, he'll sit on the oppositeside of the couch, he's just
quieter.
I mean, I remember we got inthis huge fight about bullies
and at the end of the night hekind of surrendered, he kind of
(44:43):
let me have my way, and so I washappy, right.
So the next day I was in a goodmood and he was not in a good
mood, um, and we went to visitmy grandmother and on the way he
was distant and cold.
And then when we got there hewas like great outgoing.
I was like, oh, this has curedit, everything's fine now.
And then as soon as we leave,he's like distant, cold again.
And it was just like that thewhole day.
And then at at night I just Ihad been trying to bid for his
(45:04):
attention all day, like tryingto break the ice, and then at
night we go to bed and I justlike started quietly crying and
that's when he's like finallyreached for me and like cuddled.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
But I just cried, oh but you know what, jason, it
broke the cycle.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, jason really treats me like a God.
I can't believe I teared upover that Whoa.
He treats me like a delightfulobject is the wrong word but
like some, something he's alwaysjust delighted by.
And when he's cold to me, I'mlike I can't stand the image of,
(45:50):
I can't stand the loss of thatand like the new image that he
has of me.
So that really makes me crazy.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
What came up for you?
What made you tear up?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Oh Christ, this is affect deep Christ.
This is affect deepening.
This is an EFT move.
Um, yeah, I think anydisconnection with him is very
painful for me.
Um, he is my safe person andwhen I feel disrejected by him,
(46:20):
then that's, I don't know, itjust sucks.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
What goes through you when you feel iced out.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
At first I feel like I can overcome it.
At first I'm like, okay, I'llmake this thing, I'll be really
charming, I'll be like reallycute and charming, and he'll, he
won't be able to resist me.
And then he resists me, andthat's when I start being like,
okay, fine, then I'll reject youtoo, like I'll sit over here.
And then that doesn't workeither, and then it's just very
(46:56):
like I don't know what does gothrough me.
This is the thing I alreadyblocked the affect anxiety,
anger, sadness certainly anxietywhat else?
certainly anxiety.
I'm trying to connect with itand I don't know if I can.
(47:30):
I blocked the affect, I think.
I mean there's, uh, I thinkthat you know, being in like in
bed, like feeling very lonelyand rejected, is like the
hardest moment for me.
Um, I, I don't know that thatwas as hard in other
(47:56):
relationships.
I think I'm so used to beinghis darling that when I'm not
that anymore, then I feel like avery I get like a very insecure
kind of like.
Oh my God, have I broken thisforever?
Like am I never going to, youknow, reclaim that sort of
status in his eyes?
Um, like, I'm very.
(48:17):
I never seen jason mad at me.
I'm sure he has been, but he'snever like, he's never yelled at
me, he's never been short withme, he's never been a dick.
And I'm like I live in fear forthat moment because it feels
like it'll shatter somethingalthough in some ways maybe it
would be good.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I mean depends on anger is really confusing and I
feel like it's often talkedabout like anger is bad, is a
bad thing, but like I wonder ifthat actually be a good thing
one day.
Cause like same with same withAlex, same with my relationship,
where he has been angry with mebut it comes across as very
cold and very like like almostlike kind of a condescending
(48:58):
disgust feeling and which isreally terrible, relax, um, but
I wonder, you know, is some ofthe secure attachment and
co-regulation.
Is like being able to havethese range of emotions together
and still feel safe?
(49:19):
Of course, not like if you'reangry and like you know we don't
want him to, you know, start toget violent or aggressive with
you, but just express anger andhealthy ways that still stay
connected.
Like I'm so pissed at what yousaid the other day, you know,
like something that's that haslike a safety around.
I can be my full self, even theparts of me that feel scary and
(49:43):
vulnerable, and you are thereand see it and stay with me.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, and I would.
It's not that I think I wouldlose love for him, it's that I
don't.
I don't want to shatter theillusion he has of me.
I guess he has of me.
I guess I don't want to seemyself suddenly being something
he's really mad at and so madthat he's willing to treat me
differently.
But obviously we're going tohave to get over that.
(50:13):
It's part of things.
I've been bitchy to him, right,and he's.
I've never yelled at him,though, but he's.
How does he respond when you're?
Speaker 2 (50:25):
bitchy.
How does he respond when you'relike pursuing in that bitchy
way?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
he, he will.
If something feels unfair tohim, he'll say that you know,
and that it's so funny, becauseevery time he does that I'm like
you're not supposed to talkabout how it's unfair.
You're supposed to tell me youlove me, dumbass Like you're,
didn't you know that when I wasbeing bitchy, I was just trying
to, like, you know, get you tolike, tell me that this is the
(50:58):
whole point of the pursuewithdrawal dynamic, right, like
I'm pointing out, like I don'tlike that thing you did.
It made me feel unloved.
So you, you argue, tell me thatthat's not what's happening.
Instead, he's like that wasn'ta fair thing to say.
I try very hard in all of these.
Fine, fuck you then.
And I like lick my wounds for15 minutes.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
I'm like, okay, fine yeah, the fantasy is that you
can have all of your pursue,withdraw defenses and the person
sees underneath it in ways thatyou know you don't have to be
vulnerable.
You'd be like, can't you seethat?
I was just saying that I wantyou to say I love you.
You know, like.
But then if you're beingaggressive or you know pushy or
(51:41):
you know stonewalling, then it'shard for the other person.
It brings up their, all theirdefenses too.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
So everyone got their hackles up and of course I
would do the same.
I mean, I'm very sensitive tolike.
I don't know I can be quitesensitive to unfairness.
I try not to be.
But yeah, I mean, I think he, Ithink like why we work is that
he responds very well to thosethings.
(52:08):
And I, I'm also very regulatedwith like if I sense that I'm
becoming bitchy, then I usuallyam like I gotta go, like I gotta
, I gotta cool down.
This isn't a good.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
I'm not gonna like myself the few fights I've seen
you guys get into, and usuallyit's like you're on the phone
and you're like yelling at himabout making plans or something,
and my impression is that heapologizes and he just
immediately goes okay, I'll dowhatever you want.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
I'm so sorry yeah, I mean it.
Yeah, it depends.
I mean he has a couple thingswhere he's kind of stalwart, um,
like the travel thing.
But I will say he he tends toapologize for a lot of things
that he doesn't need toapologize for and that that
(52:58):
works well because signals to.
It's not that I want himthinking that he's doing wrong
things all the time.
I really don't know.
90% of the time I'm like youreally don't need to apologize
to me for that.
I was not upset, but I do.
I like knowing that he'ssomeone who reflects on his
behavior and is like alwayswanting to make me feel okay and
to like the ship again, likethat gives me a sense of
(53:19):
security.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah I I also that you bring up a good point, that
that over apologizing is likethat fond response.
That's a form of withdrawingright.
It's a form of just being likeokay sorry.
Yeah, you're totally right, yeah, just capitulate, just like
flipping onto your back andbeing submissive.
It's like, yeah, yeah, whateveryou want.
And sometimes that's evenannoying for the pursuer,
(53:44):
because the pursuer wants theconnection they want like a real
person there.
They don't want just like aokay, fine, whatever, because
it's not even.
It feels like they're not evenengaging with it.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
It's just a way to like calm down, calm down, calm
down.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
So right, and it's tough when there's like an over
apology.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
I don't get it like I gave you everything that you
wanted I said you could haveyour way, and it's like I wasn't
trying to have my way.
I was trying for you to love meyou don't want.
Speaker 2 (54:11):
You want to give me my way and actually apologize
for things not apologize foreverything, but just certain
things in a legit, realistic way.
Yeah, okay, fine, got it, gotit, figured it out.
Yeah, it's a weird thing, whenwe did the exercise on the
(54:36):
pursuer, I had this reallyintense insight.
That was, you know, kind ofintense for the trauma that I'm
processing.
But when I was like, yeah, I'mdefinitely a pursuer, I fight
for the connection, I fight forpeople.
But then they had us picturewhat it would be like for a
(54:56):
pursuer to reach, reach, reachand then not get it.
And so you feel like you're allalone and you, you know you
can't fight anymore.
You're all alone and no one'scoming to get you.
Yeah, um, you're supposed tofeel.
I mean, normally people feelsad when they you know it's.
It's really putting yourselfback in the place of feeling
(55:18):
abandoned.
But actually what I felt wasterror, was absolute fear, and I
then I pictured my mom comingat me, like she used to come at
me when I was little likechasing me around the house yeah
yeah, and the ultimate pursuerand I, I imagine like the same
kind of thing of like beingbacked in a corner and trying to
(55:40):
run.
Try, I used to like it was sucha pursue, withdraw dynamic I
literally would run around thehouse trying to find a place
where I could lock a door andeventually, when she removed all
the locks or and all the doors,um, from the hinges, I learned
to like climb out into thebalcony and even to the side of
the building where I almost dieda couple of times, like to the
(56:01):
roof.
Yeah, I mean, I literally waswithdrawing, I was running for
my life and and that's what cameup for me and I was like, oh my
God, I realized that I pursuesituations to make me feel safe,
like I would when I would be inthat position.
I sometimes, if I made it down,like sometimes my mom would
(56:21):
call the doorman to tell themnot to let me downstairs and
lock the door.
But when I could, I would leaveand go to my dad's house, and
so I was pursuing thatconnection to keep me safe from
the one that I was trying towithdraw from.
So I was like, oh, no wonderwhy I don't identify strongly
(56:42):
with avoidant or anxiousattachment.
I'm both.
I'm disorganized, oh funCongratulations.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
Yeah, because you are forever branded with a D.
Speaker 2 (56:55):
Nope, disorganized.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
I'm a little bit of both.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yep, disorganized.
I'm a little bit of both, butyeah, I like thinking about how
it's so important for oursurvival and our regulation and
safety to feel close and securewith someone.
Like, secure attachment withsomeone is such a key point for
human survival and sometimes wedon't like to admit it because
(57:20):
that's almost like no, we shouldbe okay by ourselves.
Like no, it's important to feelsafe with people and then we
learn all these different waysto get that safety and sometimes
it's counterproductive.
I'm going to look for theresources.
That's literally like behind.
Oh here it is no-transcript withsue johnson.
(58:01):
This is a little bit more for Ithink it's a little bit more
for clinicians anyway.
But I'll link these two booksto um the resources because I
think they're excellent and I'mlike now at eft die hard.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
It's so funny because sue johnson the kind of looks
like a Dolly Parton-esquecharacter, like big coiffed hair
, southern accent, and yetbrilliant, like she's the total
example of like don't judge abook by its cover.
She's like this therapy isabsolutely brilliant.
So like yeah, getting Hold MeTight, great idea, great idea
(58:36):
for couples she passed away lastyear.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
Do you know that?
Yeah, and apparently like tight, great idea, great idea for
couples.
She passed away last year.
Do you know that?
Yeah, and apparently likeeveryone loved her, she, they
said that she was like a lovelyperson, um, so it was a real big
loss.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
So hold me tight all righty.
Well, we'll be back withanother episode on this topic.
I think I'm also going to talkabout my dissertation, maybe
next week.
So we've got some fun stuffcoming up and if you would like
to help us co-regulate and getto our vulnerable under the line
(59:09):
of vulnerability, you couldtell us that you love us with a
five-star reading on ApplePodcasts and Spotify and a
little comment, and we'll seeyou next week Spotify in the
little comment, and we'll seeyou next week by accessing this
podcast.
I acknowledge that the hosts ofthis podcast make no warranty,
(59:29):
guarantee or representation asto the accuracy or sufficiency
of the information featured inthis podcast.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
This podcast and any and allcontent or services available on
(59:53):
or through Thank you consideredor used as a substitute for the
independent professionaljudgment, advice, diagnosis or
treatment of a duly licensed andqualified healthcare provider.
In case of a medical emergency,you should immediately call 911
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The hosts do not endorse,approve, recommend or certify
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(01:00:15):
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