Your Brain on Extremes: How All-or-Nothing Thinking Affects Mental Health

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We all know those moments—when everything feels either perfect or disastrous, when someone is either completely trustworthy or utterly toxic. "All-or-nothing," "black-and-white," or dichotomous thinking, shapes our relationships, political views, and self-perception in profound ways. But where does this all-or-nothing approach come from, and why is it so hard to escape?

In this episode, we dive deep into the surprising evolutionary purpose behind rigid thinking patterns. Far from simply being a cognitive flaw, black and white thinking often emerges as a survival mechanism for those who've experienced trauma or instability. The problem arises when we carry these protective patterns into everyday life, relationships, and social media interactions where complexity is essential.

We explore how dichotomous thinking manifests differently across various conditions—from personality disorders where it permeates every interaction to PTSD where it might remain confined to specific triggers. We share personal examples, research findings, and practical strategies for recognizing when you've fallen into extreme thinking. Then, we outline the evidence-based strategies for breaking free of the extremes of dichotomous thinking.

Whether you're dealing with a loved one who sees the world in absolutes or noticing this pattern in yourself, we understand why our brains crave certainty and how embracing the gray areas might be the key to deeper connections and better mental health. We offer both compassion for why we develop these patterns and concrete tools for finding your way back to nuance.

Resources:

• Bonfá‐Araujo, B., Oshio, A., & Hauck‐Filho, N. (2022). Seeing Things in Black‐and‐White: A Scoping Review on Dichotomous Thinking Style1. Japanese Psychological Research, 64(4), 461-472.
• 
  
• Jonason, P. K., Oshio, A., Shimotsukasa, T., Mieda, T., Csathó, Á., & Sitnikova, M. (2018). Seeing the world in black or white: The Dark Triad traits and dichotomous thinking. Personality and Individual Differences, 120, 102-106.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends a
podcast for people with lovedones struggling with mental
health.
Hey guys, today we've got atopic that I'm pretty excited
about.
It's not something Inecessarily hear in a lot of
podcasts, but it is infectingour society, so seems relevant.

(00:22):
The topic is black and whitethinking, otherwise known as
like all or nothing thinking ordichotomous thinking, and it is
associated more so with certaindisorders, but it also seems to
be associated with being onsocial media.
So I think we've got a lot totalk about.
Kibbe, how can you help withblack and white thinking?

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, so in Cool of Mind we say this all the time,
but we are supporting people whohave loved ones with mental
illness, especially ones thatare emotionally challenging,
like with substance use,alcoholism, personality
disorders or just have likeanger issues and I feel like
we're going to talk more aboutthis in this episode but

(01:05):
especially people who have a lotof black and white thinking,
like really extreme loved onesreally struggle, like it's
really really hard for lovedones when there's a lot of this
dichotomous, like all or nothingextreme thinking going on.
So if you are struggling withthis with your loved one or with
yourself, you could reach outand see how we can help.
You could find us oncoolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom

(01:32):
and we do one-on-one coaching.
We have personalized resourcesand skills that we've learned
from our many, many years ofdoing therapy, and also a
community, so there's differentways that we support you through
this which is good, becauseblack and white thinking drives
me bananas, yeah yeah it is sortof antithetical to how I don't

(01:56):
know to me.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
I always got in trouble on that, in like with
bachelor nation or whatever, forbeing too like forgiving or too
new like I.
I think that I could maybe evenbe helped by being slightly
more.
I can wait sometimes, because Ican tend to be like kind of an
apologist, um, or just a foreverdevil's advocate.
I'm like always trying to findthe other side, like how you

(02:21):
know, how can we actually fleshthis out?
And that also irritates people.
But what can you kind of tellus about?
Why black and white?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay, yeah, I mean I was also.
I mean both of us really hateblack and white or all nothing
thinking.
Let's call it dichotomous,because I feel like black and
white lately has been it puts alittle bit more of like a racial
spin on it and people you knowfind that you know offensive,
like good and bad, black andwhite, right, um.

(02:53):
And I only know that because,uh, I have a friend who was
going to do a, um, a movie aboutlike a black cat on one of the
major networks and they, hey,scrapped the project because
they were, you know, paintingthe black cat as bad.
And so they're like okay, wecan't do like black is bad and

(03:15):
white is good anymore.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Anyway, that is going to be my one black or white
remark for the podcast.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, it creates like associations of like black is
bad, right and white is good,which you know except that black
and white thinking doesn'trefer to good versus bad
thinking, it just refers toextremes yeah, extremes yeah,
yeah, whatever.
Yeah, I mean.
I think that the way it showsup, typically it's it's called a
cognitive distortion, meaningthat it's a way, it's a pattern

(03:45):
of thinking that is not helpfuland usually leads to a lot of
anxiety, depression, othermental health issues, and you
can think of it as extremethinking like everything is all
good or everything is all bad.
This person is toxic, orthey're the best and they're the
one, and they're everything.
I'm worthy, I'm amazing,everyone loves me, or I'm

(04:09):
worthless.
There's never going to be goodthings in the future, or the
future is bright, right?
So these really extremenegative, positive zero nothing,
it can be negative, positive orit can just be.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
It can just strip all nuance and complication from
the topic.
Like, for instance, you know,know someone who is kind of like
unless you love me the way Iwant to be loved, then you don't
love me.
Unless you agree that you'llnever leave me, then that's not
love and that's not good versusbad, but it's very like rigid

(04:42):
this or that.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, very like rigid , this or that, yeah, all or
nothing.
It is, but the more I did alittle bit of digging into this
in the literature, the more it's.
First of all, it's it in thepsychodynamic literature is
called, um, like a primitivedefense.
Right, it's almost, which isanother way of saying this is a
very immature, base, not evolvedway of dealing with hardship

(05:04):
and it.
It boxes the everything intotwo extremes.
Right, there's two categories.
There's no gray area.
There's no, as you're saying,nuance and complexity.
Um, you could only hold onething at a time.
Right, it's either white orblack, good or bad, you know
liberal or conservative, right,but I think what where it

(05:29):
evolved is it could be adaptivein helping us have, like a very
easy shortcut that makes thingsvery simple and very efficient
and fast, right, instead ofhaving to be like is this person
a good partner?
They have good qualities andbad qualities, they care about
them.
But also things that are reallyhard about a relationship, it's

(05:50):
like no, this person's toxic,get them out of my life.
It makes it very easy to knowwhat to do, right yeah, yeah, no
, I think that's that's cool.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
um, it's associated with cluster B.
We know it's a major aspect ofBPD, but I think the research
you were doing earlier today isreally interesting in explaining
why this evolves in certainkinds of people.
Do you want to kind of go intowhy that might be associated

(06:21):
with cluster B?

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, I was actually surprised because we've always
learned dichotomous thinking issomething that we work on in
cognitive behavioral therapy,especially for people who are
depressed or anxious.
Right Like something's going tobe dangerous.
I always fail, I'm always hatedand rejected, right, right.

(06:44):
So then you kind of get thislike like intense emotional
response of anxiety or feelingdepressed because it's like
everything is hopeless.
Right, there's no, there's nopossibility, there's no gray
area, there's no like windowinto something else, it's just
all bad.
So I was actually surprised whenthe research shows that

(07:05):
dichotomous thinking is reallyconnected to cluster B traits,
or what they call the dark triad, which is basically like
psychopathic and those dark,malignant, narcissistic traits
that we think are bad.
But the interesting thing isthat dichotomous thinking is
connected to the adaptive formsof that, like ones that are able

(07:29):
to like, manipulate and getahead in different ways and
survive, right.
And I was like that's weird.
Why would?
Why would a primitive defense?
Why would something that is nothelpful actually be helpful or
connected to other helpfultraits?
And the literature is describingthat, yeah, dichotomous

(07:52):
thinking, along with a lot ofother cognitive distortions, is
a survival mechanism.
So people who have thesepersonality disorders or severe
trauma have really difficultbackgrounds where it was really
hard for them to survive, and inorder to do that, you have to
develop like pretty hard andfast rules for how to survive,

(08:13):
right Like I have to screw overeveryone in order to get ahead.
These people are bad and mypeople are good.
You know it just very likeclear-cut definitions that guide
your behavior in order tosurvive.
So it's interesting to thinkabout how dichotomous thinking
is a survival mechanism thatgets in the way of relationships

(08:35):
and your own mental health, butmaybe helps you through like a
traumatic environment yeah, Imean, my mind is going a couple
different directions.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
one is we've been talking about emotional
immaturity, and this is kind ofmaking me feel like I mean, it's
not as though people with blackand white thinking haven't
developed, they just developedin a maladaptive environment.
So it's not as though black andwhite thinking is always bad.

(09:05):
It's just that in normalsociety it's not as adaptive,
and so is that like?
Is that like immaturity?
Or when we talk aboutimmaturity versus maturity, are
we talking about people's?
People just had to grow, like,adapt into a maladaptive society

(09:29):
and then they never got to.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
yeah, yeah, I would say that this.
It is adaptive and helpful invery dangerous settings.
Right.
If you have an abusive parentor family being like they're all
bad and I'm good or I'm goingto assume that I'm all bad,

(09:50):
right.
There's just different ways todeal with a really dangerous
situation.
Just clear, cut, fast rules ofsurvival, what's good or what's
bad, and just don't nuance andcomplexity slows us down, makes
it hard to know what to do.
Right, we have to really thinkand take in all the data and all

(10:12):
the information and ponder itand weigh what's the cost and
benefit.
Right it when you're reallydeciding like, oh, is this
partner, someone I want to marry?
Deciding like, oh, is thispartner, someone I want to marry
, for example, you have toactually take a lot of time to
you know, gather all theinformation to make an informed
decision.
That's like a mature way ofgoing about it.

(10:33):
But if you are in a dangeroussituation where this person is
abusive, right, don't thinkabout the new one.
So take time to think about it.
Get out of there.
That person's bad, get outdanger bad, right.
So just it just makes survivaleasier.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
But when people grow up, are in an environment like
normal society or adulthood,where there is a lot of gray
areas, then it might bemaladaptive it might be less
helpful yeah, yeah, I mean, areally obvious place where this
can show up is PTSD, but I thinkit's different than kind of a
cluster B presentation, which isthat the PTSD presentation I

(11:17):
feel like is more about certainthoughts the world is dangerous,
other people, like people arebad, people are cruel, I'm bad
versus kind of a black and whitefiltration system or
dichotomous sorry filtrationsystem whereby, like, everything
is kind of filtered into rigidthinking.

(11:42):
With PTSD you're typicallyworking with like a couple of
beliefs and like, for instance,if you do prolonged exposure,
you're typically countering thebelief the world is dangerous
and the belief like I'm I'mincompetent or I'm incapable and
may in some other orientedbeliefs.

(12:04):
But I mean, for instance, likea cluster B presentation.
I was sort of setting a limitwith a friend recently and I
didn't say anything about likeif you ever do this again, then
I will never speak to you again.
But she responded with, likewhat I'm hearing is that there's
absolutely no room for mistakeand if I slip up, it's over.

(12:28):
Am I correct?
And I was kind of like well,where did you get that Exactly?
That seems more like a kind ofautomatic like this is how I
hear things and filter things,but I don't know if that's
actually correct.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (12:44):
What do you think?
What, how, how do you see thenuance in that versus?
I mean, I'm, I guess, like the.
The situation is that therewere, you were having
conversation where, where therethere were some elements where
some things were particularlyhard, right.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
There was just a behavior that I was like this is
burning me out, um, I can'tlike, I can't go into this place
with you anymore.
I can't like do this with you,this place with you, anymore.
I can't like do this with you,um, and I don't know that.
Therefore, if I can really bethe kind of friend you need, but
, um, that was kind of the gist.
And then the response was am Ihearing you correctly?
That, like, there is no roomfor any error, any slip up, and

(13:21):
it's not that that wasnecessarily untrue.
I just didn't see where she gotthat from the message and to me
that felt like a typicalresponse from this person,
whereas somebody with ptsd Idon't know that that would, that
that would necessarily be wherethey would go what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (13:37):
like where do you think, uh, trauma response would
be different than that?

Speaker 1 (13:41):
I don't think it says listen, I'm talking out of my
ass here a little bit, but wedon't in our training for PTSD
we don't necessarily talk abouthow, for instance, veterans just
have dichotomous thinking allover the place.
It's usually more like therecan often be certain beliefs
that are developed because PTSDis throwing you into a fight or

(14:01):
flight stance kind of all thetime right, and so the beliefs
are are like the world isdangerous, look out, you know.
Or there might be some likebeliefs about the self that have
become rigid, but I don't knowthat it necessarily would show
up so consistently in thingsthat aren't related to, for
instance, safety.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Well, I think that's the difference between
personality disorders and theway they think and the thinking
that's involved, that versuslike a disorder like that, which
is a little bit morecircumscribed and contained to a
situation.
Right, like PTSD, except forlike extreme, pervasive, complex
situations.

(14:44):
Like it is a fear of thatmemory, of that dangerous time.
So anything that is isconnected to your risk, right,
like hearing, something, beingin contact, you know,
encountering like situationsthat bring up that memory when
you were traumatized.
Then that's when the black andwhite thinking, the kind of like

(15:07):
all or nothing responses comeup.
Right, because then it's likeshut it out, like I don't want
to think about it, I'm justgoing to think emotionally.
Right, but with personalitydisorders, the idea is that
these kind of disordered ways ofthinking are everywhere.
Right, it affects the way theyfeel about themselves and other

(15:27):
people and the world and alldifferent situations, right.
So when you were saying thatyour friend was like wait, I'm
going to.
If I slip up, it's all over.
That's an example of dichotomousthinking.
Because it sounds like a shameresponse, right, it sounds like

(15:49):
okay, if I heard that.
Well, actually that might notbe worth it.
I tend to like fall into likeoh my gosh, that hurts so badly.
What did I do wrong?

(16:13):
What went wrong?
Right, like what?
What are they going through?
What's up?
But I, we were good friendsbefore Right.
Or maybe we can be friendsagain if I make up for it.
So so a healthy way of thinkingis like everything is not all
good or all bad.
I'm not all good or all bad,but maybe I did something bad,

(16:34):
maybe like or maybe I'm bad inthis moment in time, and then
maybe I messed up and that's whyshe's rejecting me or pulling
away.
But someone who has like moredichotomous thinking will be
like oh, one drop of bad meansall bad.
Oh, she's upset because of oneconversation.
She will like okay, that thatmeans any speck of badness means

(16:59):
we are done, it is over, right,very extreme yeah, I mean, I
think it it is.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's just an interesting because I'm thinking
about like.
Like ocd also deals with a lotof rigidity and some black and
white thinking, but again, Idon't know if that would show up
as interpersonally as it would,because, like you're saying is
that personality disorders arepervasive and persistent and so
I can see different peoplehaving loved ones who
demonstrate black and whitethinking, but it coming up as a
problem in really different ways.

(17:31):
Somebody with a personalitydisorder it could be more of
like a.
Your core beliefs areincompatible with the way I see
the world and we keep hitting upagainst them and they're not
adjusting, yeah, and so I can'tmake my way through them or
around them or anything.

(17:52):
Versus somebody with like OCD,you might be encountering like a
specific kind of area where theblack, where the dichotomous
thinking shows up and that'scausing all sorts of problems.
But you can still kind of havea conversation with them.
That's on the same footing,yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, For example, I mean my husband is going to kill
me when he hears I'm talkingabout this publicly, but because
he's so embarrassed about it,but it's so funny because I
don't know, yeah, I don't care,it's very funny to me.
So he has more of aperfectionist like OCD type
brain.
Right and I.
And perfectionism is a form ofdichotomous thinking it's

(18:36):
perfect or it's terrible andworthless.
Right, it's not like me, I'mlike man, it's fine, there's no,
it's fine.
And dichotomous thinking it'sjust like good or bad.
Poor guy is is usually on a huntfor some piece of clothing that
he was like oh, I picked it out, I really researched, it's

(19:07):
customized or whatever.
And then I'll see like a momentof relief and joy, like I like
this.
And then I'll watch him.
Over the course of a coupleminutes He'll start to move
around like you know, adjust thesleeves, look at himself in the
mirror, and then I'll watch hisface fall.

(19:28):
It's like it looks like a fallfrom grace, it's like I thought
I found perfection and I didn't.
And then he looks so sadBecause you'll be like, oh, this
, this seam is a little bit toolong, it doesn't work.
All or nothing, it doesn't work,and luckily, since he doesn't

(19:52):
have a personality disorder thatdoesn't extend to all parts of
his life.
It's just weirdly about clothesand probably other things that
he's not telling me because it'sso ashamed.
But he, you know I can makemistakes, our son can make
mistakes.
Things could not go great andhe could be sad about it, but
not like well, it's time todivorce now, right, right.
Then that would be more of apersonality disorder response.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
If he's just like you're not perfect, fine,
goodbye, garbage is he able tosee that what he's doing is
crazy?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
um, like in in some way enough that he knows to act
ashamed, or like to be ashamedin front of me, even though,
like you know, it's more painfulfor him to show it to me that I
like I mean it's very endearing, yeah yeah, yeah, I'm super
glad that this is the problem.
It's like he can't find clothesthat doesn't fit him well, it's

(20:46):
like I don't know.
Anyway, but that's part of theOCD thing, though, like OCD
tends to have good insight andalso non-personality sort of
feel Like you could have insightright, like even when I'm in a
bad mood.
I could tend to this where, ifI this happens to me all the

(21:06):
time this is a terrible habit.
I go on LinkedIn.
That't even know what TikTok isall about, but if you are into

(21:27):
your professional identity,linkedin is just it's not good.
So I go on, I feel good aboutmyself.
I'm like you know what I'mdoing well in my life.
I'm working hard, I'm doingthings I enjoy.
And then I look at LinkedIn andI see all the different posts
that are like I'm thrilled toannounce this new promotion or
raising this money or thisaccomplishment, and I collapse

(21:52):
into I'm a failure, I'm an idiot.
I can't believe that.
I thought that I was making anyprogress because clearly, I'm
wrong.
Clearly, I'm like a fool, likethere's no, like I'll get there.
Kibbe, you've done some goodthings, but maybe you do want to
aspire to the things thatyou're looking for.
No, the envy just takes overinto crushing self-doubt.

(22:16):
I don't know why I got on thistopic.
So, yeah, I mean, I feel like I, that that's my area of
disordered thinking.
I forgot even what the questionwas, why I even brought that up
.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Do you remember?
It sounds like you have sort ofepisodic, episodic rigid
thinking, which isn't surprising, because emotional states are
going to throw us into rigidthinking.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
And insight.
You're saying insight, right, Ithink at least I've had enough
therapy and skills and trainingto be like ah, kibbe, you're not
all worthless, in fact you're.
You're being crazy right now.
You know, don't go on LinkedIn,that's all lies, you know.

(22:57):
There there's, there's like aninsight, there's a meta
awareness somewhere that'ssaying that my all or nothing
thinking is not accurate,accurate.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
But it's just a feeling that it is.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
So a lot of this is emotionally driven, right.
It's just it's when emotionscome up as we know, it really
narrows your attention becauseit's really about, like,
surviving and meeting a need.
Right.
And so you really have to yourmind, kind of you know, when the
amygdala gets fired up, whenthe prefrontal cortex shuts down

(23:31):
.
You really are just no longerwaiting in the waters of nuance.
You're just like, nope, this isall bad, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
I mean there's going to be some level of kind of
emotion.
Mind dichotomous thinking arewhen your emotions are in
control.
They're going to tell you avery particular story.
Um, and that's normal.
Personality disorder is more,more persistent, more of a
worldview, and that can bereally difficult if that is what
you're in relation to to uh,find common ground on, because

(24:02):
there can be a lot of likeattributions of like if, if you
are, if you have a loved onewith bpd, for instance, there
can be like a lot of behavioralattributions they make about you
based off of their rigidworldview, and it's like no, no,
that's not what's going on.
But I can't make you see thatbecause everything I'm saying
kind of slips in the cracksbetween your dichotomous

(24:24):
thinking.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think with personality disorders and
some other people with lowinsight, they're just fitting
information and what they see inthe world and what's happening
into their, the way they'reseeing it, which is extremes,
right.
It's not like, oh, you know,today's a hard day and tomorrow

(24:48):
will be better.
It's like, no, all the evidencepoints to this is terrible.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Right, they just fit things into their lens, which is
either zero or one, all ornothing so we were talking about
the kind of environmentaldevelopment of black and white
thinking, slash, dichotomousthinking, sorry, where kind of
an unstable, chaotic environmentcan propel this sort of

(25:18):
development.
And I'm thinking about like why,in today's world where you know
, like why, in today's worldwhere you know poverty's down,
education's up, literacy's up,mortality is down, we're
actually you're making that faceat me, but like the major
metrics of like flourishing havebeen going up for decades.

(25:40):
But at least if we look, onsocial media.
I mean it seems like people areliving in a war zone, and that
might be because I don't know ifthat's because our perception
of the world is that it's a warzone, or if it's because social
media actually is a war zone.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
I don't know what's going on.
I have now so much more respectfor you and compassion for you
Not that I did before, but I'mbrushing up against this.
Okay, so I was inspired to dothis podcast because I put up a
post that I didn't mean for itto be political, which is so

(26:20):
stupid of me, but I wrote.
I basically wrote verbatim whatI've heard from a couple of
people.
Right, I didn't really want toput judgment on it, but it was.
I was describing a situationthat a couple of of people I
know, like a couple of clientsand friends, have mentioned,
that their husbands are arestruggling with depression in

(26:42):
this really particular way thatthey are getting.
Maybe they've lost their job orthey had some some other kind
of career upset or somethinggoing on.
They get depressed, they getwithdrawn, they start to use
substances and drink more andthey start to lash out in anger
and then they start going downalt-right YouTube channels or

(27:03):
like content.
Okay, I said the word alt-rightbecause that's what my friends
used, and this is coming fromconservative and liberal
families, so I didn't reallythink much of it.
I just put it on as a post and Italked about things in the
caption that we've talked abouthere, where men are struggling

(27:23):
and they don't really have goodoutlets for their emotions.
So what do we do about it?
Now I put in the I'll writeYouTube channels.
It was like this is an outletwhere people are finding, where
men are, are finding solace anda sense of empowerment.
Well, if you guys look on on,cool mind.

(27:43):
Oh my God, the comments areappalling.
Okay, so I just got roasted.
It was just like a conservative, like roasting of Kibbe, and
they were saying things likewell, I would drink two if my
wife looked like you, or I mean,there was a lot about it was

(28:04):
interesting.
There was that dichotomousthinking with men and women, as
well as the political divide.
So like, well, this is theproblem with society.
You like liberal nuts, you knowradical leftists, or think that
that's the only solution wherethere's a lot of good stuff in
conservative you don't knowanything.
Shut up, you're an idiot.
A lot of good stuff inconservative.
You don't know anything.

(28:25):
Shut up, you're an idiot.
It's like what.
I honestly used that alt-rightterm just because my Republican
friend used it, like I didn'tknow that I was stepping into
this, but I was just surprisedby how, even if you mention
right, like a nuance, and I eventry to say and this is not a
political thing, this is justlike a trend Suddenly it becomes

(28:46):
I'm a liberal radical and I'man idiot and I don't know
anything and I think thatconservatism is bad.
I was like whoa, here's one.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
And this comes up constantly.
Here's one comment Leftists aredesperate Shitposting about
alt-right, which is in reality,a very small group of extremists
that are not part of the MAGAmovement.
Okay, but you didn't say thatit was a problem that their
husbands were becomingRepublicans.
You said they were going downalt-right, which it seemingly
he's agreeing could be a problem.

(29:17):
So people are like that's alike, that's a derogatory term.
It's like okay, I mean meanfirst of all, they're all coming
about like libtards andeverything.
I mean they're all using likederogatory terms for liberals
but?

Speaker 2 (29:30):
and women, oh my god.
There was one comment that saidstrippers and therapists are
all the same.
Take away the money and they'regone.
And my first response was likeisn't that all jobs, I mean
anyway.
So every part of what I am wasbad.
And there's also the sameattitude with like men and women

(29:51):
, like like don't listen to thiswoman idiot say what it takes
to be a man.
I was like whoa, I wasn't evenclaiming that.
I was claiming that thesehusbands have been doing this
thing and it's so sad and what?
What can the wives do tosupport them and what could the
men do to heal?
I mean, I was a fool.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
My favorite comments are the ones that assume that
you're actually talking aboutyour own husband, which is just
such a hilarious thing foranybody to do.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
It's like it's because you're not putting out.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
I was like okay, there's that one.
Yeah, I, I, yeah it's amazing,you know, because they there's
no Acknowledgement.
I mean they say that likeAlt-right is a derogatory term

(30:41):
on the one hand, but, you know,then they're Trying to make,
then they're trying to say thatreally You're just talking about
Republicans in the next, andthen they're like, yeah, there's
bad things on the left side too.
Like, yeah, fuck, I'd love apost on why some people go into
the like the alt left rabbitholes, because I don't like them
either.
But yeah, yeah, exactly, comingat you with so much vitriol and

(31:05):
trying to tear you down, makeyou feel stupid.
You know, there's nothingconstructive.
I mean there are a couple likesemi constructive comments or
criticisms, but it's just likeand then we're supposed to.
We're supposed to be like oh,you're right, being a Republican
is a good thing.
I mean, it's like.

(31:25):
This is what always amazes meabout social media.
You know, it's like people willtry to drag you for your
beliefs, but then theycompletely confirm your beliefs
by being such dicks about it.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And then introducing nuance isnot popular.
Introducing gray areas orseeing the other side that we
love to do is really not popular.
I remember I did a post aboutfrom our narcissistic parents
episode about, I think we weretalking about like can

(31:59):
narcissistic parents actuallylove their child?
And I was thinking like, yeah,some, and the way they express
or they experience love orlearned how to love is like not
healthy, but they do love.
Oh my God, I got roasted forthat too.
They were like.
They were like this is poison.
How can you say this on theinternet?

(32:19):
You are toxic.
I was like whoa, every singleperson with narcissism is unable
to love.
That is all or nothing thinking.
Narcissism equals zero love.
That is extreme.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
It's not only extreme , it's incredibly unhelpful and
it's going to trap people intorelationships with narcissists,
because if you believe thatnarcissists can't love, and then
you start dating a narcissist.
What you'll discover is thatthey sure act like they can love
, and you'll get very confused.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Or there's actually good parts of them.
Or they are trying, or they dolove you and just the some of
their behaviors are quote, quotetoxic.
So you just want, everyone justwants, like, let's give me the
signs that this person is toxic,like, and when we, when we do
this character judgment right,this all or nothing character

(33:13):
judgment, that just makes oneperson all one thing, they are
all liberal, they're all bad,they're all, you know, whatever.
And they strip away any otherpiece.
And I understand why.
Because if you were to say, hey, you know, maybe my
narcissistic parent does love meand maybe I should keep trying

(33:33):
and try to get them to like seeme for who I am, it's like,
actually, maybe it'd be betterif you just like x it out, cut
it out, just stop trying to findthe nuance and clinging to that
piece in a problematic way.
So I understand how it reallycan maybe help you set those
boundaries, because some peoplecan set boundaries of like all

(33:55):
right, it's bad, yeah, done.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
No, I mean, this is what I was noticing back,
especially in 2018, but mostlyfrom the left which was a sudden
reliance on rules.
And it's weird because the lefthad always kind of been the
party of no rules, right Of likefree love and you know, be who
you are, and authenticity, andyada, yada, yada, and to

(34:17):
suddenly be like what can we sayand what can't we say?
Who do we call out?
Who do we call in?
Who do we, you know, cancel?
It was just like whoa and youknow if, like, somebody said the
wrong thing and they werepainted as totally terrible and
you know, of course, this isgoing on in the right too, like
Joe Biden's just completelyterrible.

(34:39):
Everything he's ever done isterrible.
Now, of course, we do do thatto Trump.
So, okay, that's a both sidesproblem, but you know it's it's
liberals are destroying religionand destroying women and
destroying family, and I meanit's just like insanity.
But when do you want rules?
You want rules when you feelthat, when you feel, feel

(35:00):
instability, you're looking formore structure, you're looking
for more order, and so there'sgotta be some sense that we're
living in some kind of chaos.
And I don't know if that's beenbecause, with all of this
information coming from so manydifferent.
I mean, it's not just newsanymore, right, it's your
neighbor, it's that randomperson down there.

(35:21):
It's like, whoever you follow,right, whoever the algorithm
pushes you.
It's really hard to make senseof the world now because there's
so much freaking information.
It's all contradictory, and soyou know, if you can kind of
like hold on to something solid,then maybe that's going to be
comforting to you, but it'sgoing to run you into a lot of
problems, I agree.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
I think that to be on the other side of the
dichotomous thinking is reallypainful because you have to hold
the nuance.
You have to hold the otherinformation right, like when I
um get into arguments with mymom, for example, and she's like

(36:02):
really upset and it's you know,you're all about.
How can you do this to me?
Like just all blanket badeverything.
I have to hold the full picturein my mind alone, right, like
there's some things I did thatare good, some things are bad.

(36:23):
You know, like I do care aboutyou a lot and I show you in all
these different ways and I'mdoing something that is against
what you want, and so that feelspainful.
But then she'll be like youdon't love me at all, right, so
you have to be like wait, no, no, no, I have a gray area.
I have like evidence to theother side and the other person

(36:47):
doesn't want to hear it.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
I mean, I think like the real danger in dichotomous
thinking is that the world's notdichotomous, so in
relationships certainly aren't,you know.
So if you have somebody who'ssaying like love me the way I
want, or else, or you don't loveme at all, then the other
person is in a huge picklebecause that leaves no room for
the other person's needs andthat leaves no like

(37:11):
understanding of you know,sometimes I can't love you the
way you want because I'mprotecting myself, I don't have
the time, I don't have theenergy, I don't want to like.
I mean, I've got other thingsgoing on.
My life is filled with allsorts of things and you're one
of those pieces, but you're noteverything.
And that doesn't mean I don'tlove you, that doesn't mean I

(37:33):
don't hold you in high regard.
But if every time I don't get itright for you, then you tell me
that I don't love you or I'mnot putting an effort, I Don't
care, I'm a shitty person, I'man ex fill-in-the-blank person
like why would I stick around?
Because there's just so manyways to fail all the time.
And then, in order to not fail,in order to keep the

(37:54):
relationship going, the personwith nuance has to bring the
nuance, as you're saying, andthat takes a lot of effort too.
That's a ton of work and thenit doesn't get through, and then
you're just kind of like, okay,well, I see value in this
person, but it's too exhausting.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's fairly, it's.
It's what we were talking aboutimmature thinking.
And I really am learning somuch about immature thinking or
emotion dysregulation, all thisstuff by watching my two year
old who, literally before this,he was like I want to watch a
movie.
He was like I want to watch amovie and I was like, wow, we're

(38:34):
so lucky that at yourfingertips you have Disney plus
channel Me.
I had those big VHSs and I hadlike four and like that's it,
but you have the world of Disneyat your fingertips.
We could watch anything.
Moana 2, let's give that a try,maybe you'd like it, maybe it

(38:55):
fits this mood.
No, I was even even when Isuggested Moana 2 instead of
what he wants to watch Toy Story2, over and over he it wasn't
like, oh, mom, okay, well, I geta movie, but it isn't the one I
want and that's okay.
It was like nah, like you, youwould have thought that he, like

(39:17):
the world ended right, it'sjust all or nothing, it's either
, like he's.
And then, as soon as I turn onToy Story 2, he's like oh,
thanks, mama, you know.
So it was just all or nothing.
And yeah, and when you grow upyou have room for you know I'm
disappointed and I know thatthat emotion is doesn't inform

(39:39):
all of the information that'savailable here.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean the ability to keep
multiple, multiple perspectivesin mind means that dichotomous
thinking just can't, just can'twork.
We're just too complicated forthat.
Yeah, means that dichotomousthinking just can't, just can't

(40:03):
work.
We're just too complicated forthat.
Yeah, um, and online, I don'tknow, I mean it's.
I guess dichotomous thinking isa good way to have your
worldview confirmed in certainways, but you're gonna you risk
missing out on a lot, a lot ofpossibilities, a lot of
friendships, and you, if you seta hard rule and then you
encounter something that'snuanced, you're not going to
understand that, like, I meanthat's a narcissist thing, right
, like, narcissist can't love,okay, then when I see a
narcissist, if they act likethey love them, that's not a

(40:25):
narcissist.
Oops, I'm with a narcissist andit's three years down the road.
I mean, it's like that withanything, right, yeah,
republicans are all good, okay,well, now I'm with a republican
and he's a dick.
What if this doesn't conform?
Like you can't have these rulesand expect to succeed in life.
And I mean I think with like, ifyou think of the ptsd type of

(40:47):
situation of black and whitethinking, where it's like the
world is a fully dangerous place, you know like I like worked
with you know a black man whohad like a lot of racial trauma.
And it's really interesting whenyou're in that situation,
because when a black man says toyou, like white people are
dangerous, as a white person Ican't be like, nah, they have

(41:09):
been.
He's right, you know like he'sat a higher risk.
The problem is it's like ifthen he's got like health
outcomes that are going downbecause of high stress and blood
pressure and high cholesteroland there's like heart problems,
and then you know he's likeinsulating or not comfortable at

(41:30):
certain places where theremight be white people, it's oh,
like how's this belief going foryou?
Because on the one hand, it'sprotecting you from ever being
hurt by a white person but onthe other hand, it's tearing
down your life and that's thekind of like that's that's the
kind of I don't know push andpull you have in ptsd.
It might be like the world is adangerous place.
Well, like what, if you live inthe bronx, like maybe it is

(41:52):
pretty dangerous but how?
far are we going to go with thatrule?
Because if you just adhere tothat rule, you're never going to
leave your house.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Yeah, yeah.
I think your example of traumais is really, really helpful,
because if I categorizeeverything with good and bad,
everything was good and bad Iknow what to do.
It's very simple and I reallyprotect myself.
If I'm like all white peopleare bad, I'm going to avoid them

(42:26):
all.
You're pretty much going to100% protect yourself from the
dangers of white people.
Maybe not because racialoppression is insidious, anyway.
But okay, let's say allnarcissists are bad.
I'm never going to date one.
Well then, I'm never going tobe hurt by a narcissist because
I'll never, ever be in thatsituation.
Whereas if I open myself up tolike, oh, some of them can love,
some of them can change, thenI'm probably increasing my

(42:50):
chances of reaching danger,probably increasing my chances
of reaching danger.
Right, so it is simple just tocut it all out and say no, but
you're cutting everything out.
So, when it comes to dating, Imean, people know what this is
like.
If you are looking for anythingthat's a red flag, well,

(43:10):
anything can be a red flag, andthen you're just going to cut
out people because there's likea couple of things that you
don't like about them.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Right, I mean nurses don't walk around with a giant N
on their forehead.
So in order to avoid that, youhave to avoid everything and
that you know it sucks, like it,it.
It sucks when these people havebeen really, really hurt and
they have every reason to wantto avoid certain outcomes and
it's hard to tell them like yeah, you should just probably

(43:40):
Hakuna Matata it Like you'regoing to be okay.
You know, if you walk outsidelike everything's going to be
totally cool, cause it's like no, they've had an experience
where it wasn't.
They're not dumb.
Um but then you see the PTSDdestroying them from the inside
and it just costs so much.
So, yeah, so that's the traumaside of it, and I mean a similar

(44:04):
thing happens with with OCD,right.
The attempts to keep yourselfsafe through the ritual bury you
.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
Yeah, yeah.
How do you have any black andwhite thinking, all or nothing
thinking anywhere.
You are pretty flexible.
You are sometimes, yes to afault, too easy to find the
nuance, yeah, which could leaveyou in a place where you, uh,
accept probably more than youneed to.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
But do you have?
I don't have body image.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Do you have moments where you go?
In that case, do you havemoments where you're like I'm
all bad or I look terrible?

Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'll be like my body's disgusting.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Oh, okay, and how could Jason?

Speaker 1 (44:55):
truly be attracted to me that kind of thing, or I
look terrible, I'll be like mybody's disgusting.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, and how could Jason truly be attracted to me
that kind of thing?
Oh, I know.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
But good thing Leifo sucked all those thoughts away,
just like my husband one daywill find that perfect shirt and
those perfect pair of pants.
You know, it's out there.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Just keep finding it.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
So what do we do about this?
I mean, I don't know, man,society, I don't know.
I feel like society.
You know it's interestingbecause it's just like there's
nothing that energizes peoplemore than just black and white
thinking.
Right like you can.
It is very easy to control agroup of people who are all or
nothing.
I'm like, oh, do I want moreengagement on Instagram?

(45:39):
I will just mention alt-right.
I'll just put a post of me andput alt-right and then watch as
that post blows up.
I mean, that's what the newsdoes both sides.
But as a person, I think it'sthe same as what we do with any
kind of disordered thinking.
We, we ask, we ask ourselves,or that person like, what is

(46:01):
this costing you?
What, what?
What is a?
How has it served you?
You know this all or nothingthinking.
But how?
What does it cost you?
Now, listen, I have some prettyall or nothing thinking around
bungee jumping and I'm not.
I'm like it's, it's all bad,I'm not gonna do it and that's
it's pretty good.
It's gonna be pretty helpfulfor me to avoid having that rope

(46:22):
snap underneath me and we'veplummet to my death right.
So it's helpful to avoidsituations where it's really not
worth it.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
They miss out on the theoretical awesomeness of bunch
jumping.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
I mean I'm I agree with you, I'm never gonna do it,
but you know, I mean, there'sother ways to get that
awesomeness you know you coulddo skydiving, you know yeah, I
do think bungee jumping lookshorrible, like painful and
nauseating, and when I wentskydiving, the guys who did it,
who were like teachers, whowould just take us, take people

(46:54):
up for like 20 jumps a day, theywere like, oh, I would never go
bungee jumping.
Those people are crazy.
I was like, oh, ok, I'm nevergoing to do it, right?
Sure, yes, I am sacrificing thejoy of leaping off a cliff tied
by a rope, but I don't thinkthat that joy is worth any risk

(47:18):
of 1% risk.
So I'm just like bungee jumpingis all off the table.
So you kind of weigh the costlike your perfectionism.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
How like it's serving you in some ways to be
motivated, but it's also costingyou because people have to.
I mean, the amount of shirtsthat my man has ordered over the
past, you know, two years isastounding, you know to use my
shop, my links, which reallygrinds my gears um, I mean, you

(47:48):
didn't give him any reason thatit would be benefiting him, but
yeah, it would be a nice thingto do.
It would yes.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
We have black and white.
I mean, we have rules andlimitations all the time, right,
like a boundary.
You could say that's likedichotomous thinking, but it
didn't necessarily get therebecause of dichotomous thinking.
But yeah, I mean, I think yousaid at the beginning of the
episode like it serves peoplewhen they're in dangerous
situations.
So if I'm in Syria, I'mprobably going to be fucking

(48:22):
terrified and not go outsideunless I'm like covered, and you
know I'm going to.
I'm going to be like this is adangerous place, this is not a
safe place.
I'm going to stay inside andyou know the cost will be that I
miss out on seeing Syria, butthe benefit will be that I don't
put myself in any likedangerous situations.
That's not, that's not dumb,right?
It's just when it generalizesthen to a safer, a safer

(48:46):
scenario.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Yeah, like abuse, right, if someone, if there's
domestic violence and someonegoes, oh, but I could see the
nuance, I could see why you knowhe or she was in a really bad
place and you know they havegood sides, then they might.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
then it actually might serve you to be like no,
all physical violence againstyour partner is bad and should
not ever happen again yeah, yeah, this is where my nuanced
thinking gets me in trouble, notwith physical abuse, but with
putting up with too much fromother people.
Okay, but if you want to workon your black and white thinking

(49:26):
, well, first of all, dbt isvery helpful if you have or or
other disorders.
Probably not the right placefor like OCD, though, um, but
one of the reasons is becauseit's dialectical, so it's kind
of underlying philosophy is howdo we bring two seemingly
opposing things and and let themcoexist?

(49:49):
So it might be something assimple and I find myself doing
this all the freaking time nowas saying like I'm I'm angry
with you and I miss you.
That would be a good likebreakup.
Um, instant right where peopleare like because I miss them.
It means they're amazing.
It means that I idealize themthey're all good, it's like-uh,

(50:14):
you can miss them when you hate.
I mean because not all of youhates them yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Yeah, that trick is using the and instead of, but
use the and right.
So, like he loves me, right,but he's a narcissist.
Or like, uh, he's a narcissist,but he loves me and he really
cares about, right, the butwe'll negate the first thing, so
it only it.

(50:40):
It implies that you could onlyhave one thing true, um, uh,
he's a narcissist, but he lovesme means like the loves me is
more important.
But if you say, yeah, he'snarcissistic, does things that
really hurt me and he reallycares about me, then it leaves
room for both things to be true.
The good and the bad can existtogether right.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
I think, like when looking at our feelings, there's
this tendency to say you knowyou're gonna.
If you think of yourself as acornucopia with a whole bunch of
different things in it, andsome of them are going to be
conflicting and contradictory,whatever, but if you can just
put ands in between all of thosethings, then you're doing kind
of dialectical thinking, right,like, um, I have I'm trying to

(51:27):
think of a good example um, Ihave a body that has beautiful
parts and parts I'm insecureabout, and people are attracted
to me and some people aren'tattracted to me and some, some
days I love myself, some days Idon't like myself, like you know

(51:47):
, just allowing all thecontradictions to be there
instead of oh, this person isn'tattractive to me, it isn't
attractive to me, therefore, I'mnot attractive.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I don't like my stomach.
Therefore, I don't like my body.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think you don't have toum depend a decision or like um
set boundaries or make adecision based on all or nothing
rule, for example.
You don't have to be like, well, that person has to be toxic

(52:25):
for me to cut them out of mylife or say goodbye or not to
put up with them, like you'rewaiting for that person to be
all something, an evil personthat you have to cut off.
It's like, no, it could be,like there are many good things
about this person.
I could even care about them.
I had great times.
Maybe in the future things aregoing to be different, but and

(52:45):
right now you know the behavioris not something that's healthy,
and so I'm going to choose toleave Right, so you could base
decisions on taking in all theinformation still and then
making an informed decisionthere, instead of like, yes, no,
swipe left or swipe right, kindof rule yeah, yeah, um,

(53:06):
republicans, they voted for whatI think is a rapist and they
might not think that he is, andthey love their families and
they're very scared about what'shappening to values they've
cared a lot about and they seedifferent solutions to the same
problems, and you know what Imean.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Like there can be.
It was like.
This is how we find our commonhumanity.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
We don't categorize and I think you know.
I think a good way to see if,uh if, dichotomous thinking is a
problem for you is to askyourself if you're miserable,
right Like, you're always goingto find the good side.
If you like with perfectionism,right Like.
What's the good side aboutdichotomous thinking?
Some of your work is reallygood.
The bad side is that you'remiserable, so it's like okay, my

(53:57):
perfectionism.
Sometimes it drives me tocomplete really good work, and a
lot of the time I feel anxiousand not good enough and
worthless, and sometimes Iprocrastinate so much that
actually my work isn't as goodbecause I'm so scared of making
a mistake.
Yeah, so is it worth it?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, it's trying to figure out if the dichotomous
thinking is helpful for you andwhy and where does it cost you
and choose to make that hard andfast rule when it is helpful
and to allow the nuance whenit's not.
I mean, the traditionalcognitive behavioral therapy or
the CBT approach to dichotomousthinking is to challenge that

(54:42):
thought, right, it's to look forsignals of those extreme
beliefs, like anything where yousay always or never, I'm never
right, I'm never successful, I'mnever successful, I'm never,
I'm never loved, no one everstands by me in times of
hardship, right, like these allor nothing words are not

(55:10):
accurate, right, because youknow life is full of counter
examples, right, and so you'rejust wiping out those counter
examples.
So in cognitive behavioraltherapy it would be like okay,
let's actually notice when youhaven't always or never thought,
and then ask yourself what am Imissing here?
What is evidence that that ruleisn't true?

(55:33):
Okay, I always feel likeeveryone rejects me and leaves
me.
Well, let's think of one or twoexamples where someone's still
stuck by you.
And already just one or twoexamples and one, one little
hint of gray area means thatthat.
You know, black and whitecategorization is not, it is not

(55:54):
accurate.
Um, I, I think that's fine, butI'm not a big fan of like
thinking your way out of it,because if I'm really thinking
black and white like that, I'mfeeling an intense emotion and I
just my mind.
I like, yeah, sure, I know thatit's not like there are some
good sides and bad sides, butright now I'm all bad right, and

(56:16):
so I think that I tend to go alittle bit more into the emotion
.
Like, what is the emotiondriving those hard and fast
rules?
I'm so ashamed, I'm sodisappointed in myself, I'm so
scared that no one's actuallygoing to love me unless I'm
perfect.
Like that is something thatit's easier for me to tap into

(56:36):
than for someone to talk me outof like.
But wait, there's some goodthings I'm like oh fine, you
know.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Yeah, I think for me, um, it can be unhelpful when
people try to talk me out ofthings, but that's primarily
because I've already done it,like I'm a major cognitive
restructuring person already andthat's my first go-to with
everything.
I'm like, oh, here's myassumption, uh, okay, but, and
this gets me, this is, thismakes me put up with a lot of
people for too long.

(57:04):
I'm like, okay, well, what'stheir possible perspective?
And okay, what else is going on?
So, you know, I try to dialdown the catastrophizing pretty
quickly and what I think I needto do is say, okay, even even
when I restructure it, thatdoesn't get rid of the entire
emotion.
That is protective and it's agood mechanism, but ultimately

(57:27):
there's still going to bediscomfort and there's no
talking myself out of that, andso I have to figure out how to
just, you know, urge, surf orbreathe through it, sit on my
hands, you know, and not try tojust reason away the, the
feelings.
But I do think it's.

(57:49):
Yeah, I made a huge.
If you're not, if you're notrestructuring like, if you're
not, if you're not restructuringlike, if you're not, and this
is, you know, this is why, likecognitive work, I mean, I think

(58:10):
people can find it invalidating.
But if they truly don't, atother perspectives, if they're
not kind of dialing down theintensity on the, you know, on
these worst case scenarios,they're going to get stuck there
, and I think it is a good lineof defense.
So it is worth.
You know, if you've never donethat before, if you've never
said, oh, am I making astatement with always, am I

(58:32):
assuming the worst case scenario?
Am I, you know, completelymaking assumptions about the
other person without consideringat least three different
options for what theirperspective might be or why they
might that might have happened,and I think it's a good thing
to try.
It's not the only thing, mm,hmm, mm, hmm it's tricky.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
There's one area that's really tricky and that is
, uh, abuse, like domestic abuse.
Because, if you think about it,um, a former dichotomous
thinking that people withpersonality disorders do often
is I'm the victim and you arethe one to blame.
You're the perpetrator.
Yes, I might have caused thisproblem, but I'm, I did it
because I'm the victim and youare the one to blame.
You're the perpetrator, yes, Imight've caused this problem,
but I'm, I did it because I'mthe victim and you are the
problem.
Right, it's so.

(59:20):
It's very much like I have onerole, I'm the good one and
you're the bad one, and then youwatch them flip I'm the worst,
I'm, you know, I'm the whatever.
And although you know so, youwould say, hey, actually the
research, the real research,shows that people who engage in

(59:41):
intimate partner violence, likedomestic abuse, often people
flip roles of perpetrator andvictim, right, actually, there's
a lot of cases where bothparties hurt the other one,
right, and so I find that reallytricky, because then for people
who've experienced like sexualassault or other kinds of

(01:00:05):
horrible abuse, for them to havea little bit of blame of
themselves and like, oh, I'm alittle bit bad, that could be
really damaging.
So I don't really know what todo there, except for like the
all or nothing of like.
That behavior is bad.
Everyone should stop.
Doesn't make you a bad person,but you should all stop that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
That is the tough part, you know.
But you know I meaninterestingly, with sexual
assault or rape, you know, Imean there's black and white
thinking here too, which isunhelpful, which is like if I,
the common belief people have,is like maybe I made the person
like think I wanted it and Ithink the nuance there is, who

(01:00:46):
cares you?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
And he violated you.
Um, but then the problem isthen you have to, then you have
to create a rule, and that canbe tough if you're constantly
taking different perspectives.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So those situations are reallytricky to know what to do with
the dichotomous thinking.
Yeah, but that's why it's.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
That's why it starts for some people, right, it's
because they've been in thesesituations and they probably had
to make hard and fast ruleslike that person's dangerous,
don't allow it, do not let thatperson in.
I have to keep myself safe.
Da, da, da, da, da da.
Work with a therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Yeah, get a therapist is the tip.
Um, yeah, and I would say thatthe tip for loved ones who are
watching a loved one uh, go intoall or nothing thinking.
I think I I learned that one ofthe biggest mistakes I made in
therapy as a therapist was I hada patient who had, um, a

(01:01:45):
personality disorder or probably, you know, a combination of
personality disorders and and,uh, she was, she was poor things
.
She just was convinced thateveryone hated her, that she's
worthless.
Anything we would do, anythingwe would say, nothing would
pierce that belief.
She was all bad all the timeand she had a husband who loved

(01:02:08):
her, she had kids who also lovedher, she was well liked at her
job.
And she would tell me thesethings, right, she would just be
like, yeah, my husband said heloved me and I got, I got hired
for a new job and they werereally like they gave me a good
performance review and stilllike she was like all bad.
And one day, when she was reallyupset, she came in and she was
crying and she was like no onecares about me.

(01:02:30):
No one cares about me at all,no one on this planet.
And I, I, you know, I did thenatural gut instinct thing that
was wrong, which was like wait aminute, didn't you say your
husband said he cared about you,I care about you.
I really did Like I was like Icare about you, I've said this

(01:02:50):
to you and I really enjoyworking with you.
I actually I think about youand I care about you and I want
you to, I'm here for you.
And I thought I was like, ohgood, I'm giving her counter
evidence to this, likeinaccurate, extreme thought.
Good for me, kibbe, telling herthat she's not alone in this
world.
But then she got really upsetand she quit therapy.

(01:03:13):
After that.
Um, she cause.
I remember in the session shewas just like no, no, you don't
care about me, you're just paidto do this.
My husband doesn't actuallycare about me.
She just was just stuck andtrying to fit everything into
the no one loves me belief, noone being the extreme part, and

(01:03:34):
for us to try to introduce thatcounter evidence it felt
invalidating.
So I should have.
I should have rested with theemotions and been like, yeah, it
must.
You know, you must be in somuch pain that it seems like no
one is giving you the love thatthey want, that you want, like
some other way to validate whatshe was feeling that led to that
belief, instead of trying toargue against it.
Feeling that led to that beliefinstead of trying to argue

(01:03:56):
against it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
So don't do that I know I mean this like whole
topic is triggering for me basedon what's going on in my
personal life, but I don't meantriggering like the kids use it.
Um, yeah, it's.
That takes a lot of skill and Ithink it's a lot to lay at the
feet of loved ones, because tonot to not a like be offended,

(01:04:22):
you know, to not want to argueis like a tall ask.
And you know, with thefriendship of mine, I kind of
decided, like I'm not actuallygoing to do the work, to like
get, find the perfect response,but if it's your mom or your
wife or, you know, your husbandor something you might have to,
and so, like, what would it looklike to if I come to you and

(01:04:45):
say, nobody fucking cares aboutme?
Just what am I even doing here?
No one's ever loved me.
Like, what would you do withthat?

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
I think I loved me.
Like what would you do withthat?
I think I think I would.
I think I would feel for thatcore belief of the like okay, if
it's a loved one versus apatient?
I think if it was a patient I'dbe like, oh what.
I try to understand where thisemotion, like how long have you
been feeling this way?
What does it feel like in yourbody?
Like, like what's going on?
What emotion you're feeling.
When have you felt that before?
When did that thought firststart Right, so then you can get

(01:05:25):
kind of get.
Usually that leads you to, youknow, when I was bullied as a
kid, or my dad, you know, left,you know I just feel like I'm
completely worthless and youcould get to where that emotion
is coming and where that likeextreme thinking is coming For a
friend.
That's tough, that's tough.

(01:05:46):
I think I would still do thesame.
I think I would still try tovalidate the emotion.
I think I would still do thesame.
I think I would still try tovalidate the emotion and I
probably would still try toargue against it Like, no, I

(01:06:11):
actually do care about you know,you are, you're great in these
ways, but the smarter thingwould be to validate, to try to
go for the emotion that'sleading to that that I don't
care, like almost kind of ignorethe details of what you're
saying and be like your pain isso great right now like you're,
you're feeling so ashamed thatthis is just covering everything
you're thinking and seeing yeah, I think you know I have this

(01:06:35):
image of like a, a pain demon,walking around with a bunch of
clothes on, like a trench coatand a funny hat and a silly
scarf and high heels.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
But um, we are like our.
Our instinct is going to belike Whoa, what are you wearing?
Like take off a few items.
That's not.
But when, actuality, all you'redealing with is like the pain
demon and it's just dressed upin particular ways.
It's dressed up in self-hatredand nobody likes me and
dichotomous thinking, yada, yada, yada, yada.
And none of that really matters, because all it is is just

(01:07:08):
window dressing for the, for thepain.
And so, yeah, if you can justhold the pain, then maybe you'll
have some luck, but that's hardwork.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Yeah, I think I'm trying to put myself in the
moments where I felt that all ornothing, thinking like I'm, I'm
, I'm, I'm garb, I'm garbage,I'm really just, I haven't
accomplished anything, I'm notgood enough, whatever.
And I think that for me, maybeI'm projecting, but that feels a
lot like what that feels likeis helplessness, and it just
feels like a collapse of tryingright, like if I, if I'm, if I

(01:07:49):
have to hold out hope because no, there is a chance or I am good
or whatever, then I'm like okay, I have to keep trying, but the
mountain of barriers, it's justtoo much.
So I'm like fine, it's all bad,right.
So it kind of allows me tocollapse into a little bit more
of like this helplessness.
I'm, I've stopped trying, I'mtired and burnout, you know.

(01:08:09):
Um, I mean, I'm just, I'm rightnow.
I'm just describing the way itfeels when I'm like when I'm
there.
Well, I'm just like totallyuseless and everyone hates I'm
just, I'm right now.
I'm just describing the way itfeels when I'm like when I'm
there, when I'm just liketotally useless and everyone
hates me.
I'm just like I'm not evengoing to try, because it's way
too painful to keep trying tofind someone loves me and then
to show up and be the best.
I'm just tired and I don't wantto do it anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Yeah, yeah, no-transcript beneath it.

(01:09:05):
You can.
You know your partner might besaying like I'm worthless and I
can't do anything right, butthey're not like actively
throwing darts at you or soincredibly self-absorbed that it
is really aversive.
But sometimes it's really hardto get to the pain because

(01:09:27):
you're so put off by thedressing, you're so put off by,
like, the behavior that the painis radiating and that kind of
has to be listened to for theloved one, right.
Like that's where you have toset limits around it.
Like when your parent is fumingat you, then it's kind of like
okay, like you have the choicewhere you can.
You can see the helplessnessand validate it and sit with it

(01:09:49):
and help them just experience it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
And you also have the choice to say uh-uh, um't, some
, this isn't, it's not worth itto me, because what you radiate
out when you're in this placeaffects me too negatively yeah,
yeah, I think that the the thosemoral of the story is is all or
nothing thinking cuts out a lotof the nuance, right, it cuts
things that are out a lot of thenuance, right, it cuts things
that are bad but also could cutout things that are good.

(01:10:20):
And if you have a loved one whois just so set in a core belief
or dichotomous thinking, likethese very rules driven, there's
not a lot of room for you.
And relationships in thehealthiest sense is about a
co-creation between two peopleAt least that's what I believe.
Right, it's like we areaffecting each other.
But if it's just like I am justgoing to step into your

(01:10:44):
blueprint that you have, or I'mout, right, I'm this kind of
daughter or friend or whatever,and I love you and I give you
full access and I act this wayand I don, and I then I'm just a
role, I'm just like dehumanizedinto, like a figure, whereas,
like you want to be a fullperson, right, you want, you
want that nuance in you.
You don't want to be seen asall good or all bad, you want to

(01:11:06):
be seen for the other sides ofyou.
And if that other persondoesn't allow that nuance in you
and your relationship, thenyou're going to have to leave
that relationship in order to bewhole again.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Yeah, that was well said, that resonated Good.
Anyway, I think that does it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
Yeah, okay, any resources.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
Yeah, okay, any resources.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
Yeah, there's some interesting research studies
that are kind of woven into whatwe talked about, so I'll link
that in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
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