PART ONE - New Year, New Binge - A Nefarious Nightmare - True Crime

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome, Welcome, True crame enthusiasts. I'm your host Alison from Coffee and
Cases podcast, and joining me todayis the one the only Timihannah from Fresh
Heel Podcast. Get ready for anepisode packed with mystery, unsolved cases,
intrigue, and a whole lot ofnew bingchworthy podcast recommendations to carry you into

(00:27):
twenty twenty four. That's right,Johanna, New Year, New Binge is
our theme today, and we're aboutto unveil some of the most mind bending,
informative, and impactful true crime podcaststo set the tone for twenty twenty
four. First up on my listis a podcast that delves deep into unsolved

(00:48):
mysteries and chilling crimes, Crime Lines. If you're into unraveling mysteries through timelines
and meticulous research, Crime Lines isthe podcast for you. It's like following
the clues in a real life detectiveinvestigation. So grab your detective heads,
turn off the lights, and let'sdive in. Hi, It's Charlie with

(01:11):
Crimelines here, and today I'm bringingyou a case that is known most widely
by two words, baby Holly.So let's go ahead and get started with
Harold Klaus, who went by hismiddle name Dean and Tina Lynn. The
two lived in New Smyrna Beach,Florida in the late nineteen seventies, and
they met through their siblings. Tina'sbrother was dating Dean's sister. At the

(01:36):
time they met, Tina was fifteenand Dean was nineteen, and within a
year of dating, the two foundout that Tina was pregnant, and in
spite of their very young ages,they decided to have a quick courthouse wedding
in June of nineteen seventy nine.They lived with Tina's sister for a while,
and their daughter, Holly Marie,was born on January twenty fourth,

(01:57):
nineteen eighty. With the hope betterjob opportunities, the young family moved to
Lewisville, Texas. They had solittle at that time that they had to
borrow Dean's mother's car just to makethe move, and they lived with Dean's
cousin until they could get on theirfeet. At that time, Dallas was

(02:17):
exploding in size, so construction andcarpentry jobs were plentiful. Dean went right
to work building cabinets while Tina stayedhome with Holly. Eventually they were able
to get a police of their own, though there were some lean times in
there. Dean's job wasn't always steady. It was on an as needed basis,

(02:38):
and things would get really tight duringthe times he wasn't needed. But
from what they reported back to family, they were happy in Texas, But
within a few months of their move, Dean and Tina stopped contacting their family
in Florida. Many sources say thatthe last contact was in October of nineteen

(02:59):
eighty, but the Texas Observer reportedthat Tina did send a Christmas card to
her family, which included a recentpicture of Holly, and that may have
been sent a little later, possiblyNovember or December. From what we learn
later, this card probably did comemore like November than December. It was

(03:21):
in December of nineteen eighty that Dean'smother, Donna, got a call from
someone claiming to have found Donna's carthat she had loaned to Tina and Dean.
This man was in Los Angeles andhe said he was going to arrange
to have the car returned to Floridafor her. When a time was arranged
to get the car, it wasstrange the people who brought the car to

(03:45):
Florida wanted to meet at midnight atthe Daytona Speedway. When the family got
there, they were met by threewomen wearing long robes, and only one
of them spoke. She said hername was Sister Susan. She said she
wanted to return part of the family, but it was in exchange for a
donation. Of course, hearing fromsomeone with a name like Sister Susan wasn't

(04:08):
entirely out of the norm for thefamily. Dean had dabbled in various groups
that grew from the Jesus People movementmore commonly known as the Jesus Freaks of
the nineteen seventies. Like other religiousmovements of the time, it came from
those who had been inspired by thehippie counterculture the peace loving movement, but

(04:30):
they didn't find the answers they werelooking for in either the free love side
of things or drug use or both. They were looking for something that encompassed
all of the peaceful side without allthose other things, and some found this
by turning to religion. Not allof these religions were based in Christianity.
The Hara Krishna are a good example, as many of their early American members

(04:56):
were ex hippies. Dean was moreinterested in the cre Christian groups, particularly
the Jesus People movement. When hewas seventeen and eighteen, his mom would
come home and find men in robessitting at the table, but Dean's interest
in this declined as his relationship withTina became more serious. But with Sister

(05:17):
Susan and other robed women around,it looked like Dean may have gotten back
into some type of religious group,and that was what Sister Susan said happened.
Dean and Tina were now members oftheir group and wanted the family to
know that they were fine, butthey were cutting off contact with anyone outside
of the faith, and that includedtheir family. Sister Susan then had the

(05:43):
gall to ask Donna for a thousanddollars donation to get her car back.
According to the Washington Post, thepolice had been alerted to the meeting and
Sister Susan was taken into custody,though the police report about this has not
been located as far as I know, it's not clear why they took Sister
Susan into custody, maybe on suspicionof theft of the vehicle, but she

(06:08):
was not held for long and didnot go through any formal charges. At
first, the family reluctantly accepted SisterSusan's story that the family had joined this
religious group due to Dean's history dabblingwith those types of organizations, and also
Tina's sweet and trusting nature and herrelatively young age would have also made her

(06:29):
susceptible to a group like this.Frankly, it sounded like something they might
do, but as time passed,it just didn't seem to sit right with
Dean and Tina's parents. There's adifference between joining a church and joining a
church that makes you cut off oncontact with everyone you know. The first
thing could have happened, but thesecond seemed wrong and out of character,

(06:55):
especially as time passed. So Dean'smother, Donna, went to the police
to twenty two year old Dean,eighteen year old Tina, and the one
year old Holly missing, and shegave Louisville, Texas, as their last
known location. Donna told the policeeverything she knew, including the return of
the car and the meeting with SisterSusan, and the police essentially told her

(07:18):
that adults who choose to cut offcontact with their family aren't missing people.
Maybe they were in a cold butthat wasn't as of yet, a police
matter, so the parents were leftto search for themselves. Though they couldn't
get the police to see the familyas missing people, they were able to
get them listed with the Salvation Army. Now I didn't know this, but

(07:41):
the Salvation Army has their own familyreunification program that they've been running since the
late eighteen hundreds. Their goal isto bring together families who have lost touch
with each other. But though theSalvation Army's Missing Persons program did actively search
for the family, no solid leadsabout Dean, Tina, or Holly ever

(08:01):
came to light. From nineteen eightyuntil twenty twenty, the families had no
idea what happened, and then investigativegenetic genealogy solved the case. Back in
January of nineteen eighty one, aman let his German shepherd off leash in
a wooded area in northeast Harris County, Texas, which is near Houston.

(08:26):
The dog ran off and then cameback with a human arm. The man
called the police, who then searchedthe area, but they didn't find anything
else. A week later the samedog went out to this same area,
and this time he came back witha hand, and even more thorough search

(08:46):
was launched, and on Monday,January twelfth, nineteen eighty one, two
bodies were found just about one hundredfeet off the road. At first,
the authorities couldn't even tell gender dueto the state of the remains, but
it was later determined that they weremale and female. They had been in
the woods for at least two weeksand up to a few months. A

(09:11):
pair of green gemshorts and a bloodytowel were found near their bodies. It
was determined that the couple had beenmurdered. The woman had been strangled and
the man had been beaten to death. Reconstructions of their faces were made and
their ages were young. The femalewas between fifteen and twenty and the male
was eighteen to twenty five. Earlyinvestigative speculation was that the woman had been

(09:37):
attacked and the man likely tried todefend her, which then turned the attacker
or attackers on him. Though Tinaand Dean's families tried to report them missing,
the police wouldn't take the report,so they were not considered. When
the investigators were looking at missing personsreports in the area. When they were

(09:58):
not identified, they were both buriedand then known as the Harris County DOES.
In July of twenty eleven, acold case investigation took on the case
of the Harris County DOS and theywere both exhumed to get DNA samples.
This was funded thanks to a grantfrom the National Institute of Justice to do
DNA testing on unidentified murder victims,of which there were several in Harris County.

(10:26):
Among them were victims of serial killerDean Coral. As of this recording,
only one set of remains from theDean Coral case remain unidentified, and
that case is being actively worked on. The DNA of the Harris County DOS
was entered into a national database,though they didn't expect to get a hit.

(10:48):
The bodies had been found in earlynineteen eighty one, long before people's
DNA was being collected into law enforcementdatabases, so even if one of them
did have a criminal record, DNAwouldn't have been taken, but it was
there ready to be used when theycould use it, and they could in

(11:09):
twenty twenty, when they stopped tryingto make a direct DNA match and instead
tried to make a familial match.Identified Er International took the case and began
building out the victim's family trees.They had two genealogists working on the case,
one working on the male Dough andone working on the female. The

(11:30):
idea was that since they were foundtogether, identifying one would get them to
the other, and this worked.They were first able to find a family
tree for the male Dough that ledthem to a family with the last name
Klaus out of Kentucky. These werecousins of the male victim. They then

(11:50):
learned that the family line had movedto Florida and they were starting to get
very close. They narrowed in onone line of the family tree through,
but then it was time to dosome detective work. They called a woman
named Debbie Brooks to ask her ifshe had a family member go missing in
the early nineteen eighties. Debbie wasDean's sister. When Debbie told them that

(12:13):
her brother had been missing for along time, they broke the news to
her that they believed his body hadbeen found back in nineteen eighty one.
Debbie mentioned that Dean's wife had gonemissing at the same time. And that
her name was Tina, and sothey told her that a woman's body had
been found with Dean. So thenDebbie asked the next logical question in her

(12:37):
mind, what about the baby,to which the genealogist asked what Baby Holly,
who would have been one around thetime the bodies were found, was
still missing. She was not foundwith her parents' bodies, so they did
a search for any infant and childdoecases that might match the timing and the
circumstances, but they found none.There was always the possibility that Holly's body

(13:03):
had been near her parents, butbeing smaller, it may have been taken
by animals. But so long asher body hadn't been found, the family
did have hope that she may stillbe alive and they would get to meet
her one day, and that isexactly what happened. Unfortunately, that is
the end of the time I havehere today. So if you want to

(13:24):
hear the details on how they foundbaby Holly as now a full grown adult,
you can search for Crimelines in yourfavorite podcast app. And the episode
came out on December seventeenth of twentytwenty three, so if you want to
hear the rest go check that out, and if not, just know that
the good news is baby Holly wasfound alive and well. We usually don't

(13:46):
have any kind of happy ending ina true crime case, not even a
partial one, but in this case, thankfully we did. Advocacystigation, prevention,
storytelling is their motto, and Sirens, a Southern true crime podcast,

(14:09):
does all of that and more.It's a podcast that not only tells a
gripping story, but advocates for justice. I'm Raven Rowlins and this is my
Southern true crime podcast where I discusscases from my former hometown, a to
Oklahoma paints itself as an average community, but its history of murder and corruption

(14:33):
runs deeper than any story is evertold. You'll hear plenty of special guests,
including authors and experts in their fieldswho visit with me on each episode,
as well as other cases in theSouthern States with notorious and unknown cases
alike. Every victim sees the lighton my show. This is Sirens,
a true crime podcast. A lifemight end, but sometimes their case forever.

(15:01):
Charlie Donnelly, the girl who wastaken in nineteen ninety five the movie
seven with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freemanwas released. Top charting songs that year
were Gangsta's Paradise by Coolio, Waterfallsby TLC, as well as Kiss from
a Rose. On April nineteenth,nineteen ninety five, Timothy McVeigh set off

(15:22):
a bomb at the Alfred P.Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing
one hundred and sixty eight people,including eight federal marshals and nineteen children.
Six hundred and eighty others are wounded. For more information on that case,
please check out our three part miniseries Up in Smoke, where we discussed
the bombing in detail, as wellas the events leading up to it.

(15:43):
Like the siege at Waco, nineteenninety five was a historical year with white
broncos and even more tragedy. Butbefore the year begins, we travel back
to my hometown of ad To,Oklahoma, where fifteen year old Daniel Ferr
leaves home for the last time.Join me as I discussed this case with
my co host, Professor Manda McNeely, as well as Daniel's mother and sister,

(16:07):
Gail and Chelsea. I am Chelsea. I am Daniel's little sister,
and we wore uh seven years apart. I was eight years old my brother
was killed. It wasn't until afterI graduated high school and pursued criminal justice

(16:32):
that I started digging into my brother'scase myself and really started investigating and looking
at his case. Even though Iwas really young when Daniel was killed,
I still remember him as being thepesty older brother, like chasing us around

(16:52):
the house and with the purse strapand you know, trying to attack us
and being the honoree big brother.And so he was the typical big brother
picking on this little kid. Soso I'm Gail Whitson. I'm Daniel's mother.
I had Daniel when I was asenior in high school. You were
a baby, I was a babythen Grant. Daniel kind of grew up

(17:15):
together. Daniel was a very funyoung kid. Never gave me no trouble
until about a year before his death, is when he started like hanging with
the wrong crowd, to get withthe wrong people. And uh. At
that point, I had become asingle mother and I had three other children.
So I was a single mom offour kids, and it was difficult.

(17:38):
It's difficult times. Like I said, Daniel kind of grew up together.
He loved animals, He had anewspaper out and when he'd go do
aice paper out. When he comesback, he'd have like ten dogs falling
him. Dogs come from me.I petted them and they followed me all.

(17:59):
So then he have to go byback around and take your dog back
home. We did adopt one andnamed it Bo. Yes, he had
one steaky o'dog, Membo Steaky stickyout. But he loved Bo, and
Bo loved him. Yeah. There'sa little creek just probably about ten blocks
from our house, and he godown there with this little boy scout camping

(18:22):
thing and he catched crowdeds and cokethem. Did he eat them? Yes,
Oh, but he liked to beoutside. He like boy scouts.
He liked to do outdoor stuff,camping. In nineteen ninety four, Daniel
began hanging out with a bad crowd. He often disappears for days or weeks
on end and informs his mother Gailthat he has joined a gang called Cripp's

(18:44):
eight Ball. He will not disclosemember names to Gail, other than m
H whom Daniel is supposedly selling drugsfor at the time, and one other
member. Daniel tends to get intoa lot of trouble around this time,
and in November of nineteen ninety four, he enters Willow View Juvenile Center.
Daniel begins receiving death threats, tellingGail that quote they showed up with the

(19:07):
message that if he talked, hewould be killed. End quote. Daniel,
stay in will of you is thirtydays long. Once he went up
to the placement where he was,you know, supposed to go, he
said, for their thirty days,he started telling me, you know,
he said, I just want tosee if I could do it, and
they said they took him to aplace and so told him he had to

(19:29):
steal a car and then he hadto run down what they called the gauntlet
where you run down and they beatyou. And he goes, I did
it. But after he came toa census and was in treatment for a
while, he says, this isscary. They've came to my window and
told me if I said anything thatbecause I placed him up in Oklahoma City
and that's where he's supposedly got jumpedto the gang and he was fourteen.

(19:52):
That was right before he turned fifteen. He said, they actually came to
the window of his room and throughthe window told him and that was just
days after. In June of nineteenninety five, a childhood friend of Daniel
will call the Fourth Scout, tellsme that he spoke with Daniel around this
time. He says that Daniel toldhim that he thought he had made a

(20:17):
group of guys very upset with himand they were making threats, but he
wasn't too worried about it. Thefriend states that Daniel was actually in really
good spirits and told him that hewas happy and had been doing well.
We jumped to July sixth, nineteenninety five. Daniel was seen by Gail
that morning. He was also seenat his grandmother's house that day. This

(20:37):
is the day that Daniel and hisfather, Harvey, get into a fight.
Daniel leaves Harvey's house and this isthe last time Harvey sees him alive.
So my dad was out of townor out of state. While he
was gone, Daniel was to staywith my mom. Daniel had broken the
house and stone some items from mydad. Upset my dad that he had

(21:00):
in and stolen something from him.He did confront Daniel about it and they
had gotten into an argument, andso then my dad left. And the
bad thing about that is that somethingmy dad had always had to live with.
He hated that. That was thelast thing he said to his son.
The words got heated or whatever.A few days later, you know,

(21:21):
he loses Daniel, and you can'tever take that back. And so
I know, throughout the years afterthat, my dad battled a lot of
depression and blamed himself. So thatreally really was hard. I went through
his room and I found some money. I found eighty five dollars I was
stashed in his mattress. It's theday that he left. We'll put it

(21:45):
that way. I confronted him,and then I finally said, I got
it, and if you will tellme where you got this, you know
I will give it right back.He said, just give my money.
Mom. We got a big fight. Time I ever talked to my son
too. It was a big fight. And he walked down the street and
away, And that was my lastwords with him too. So I love

(22:08):
with a lot of regret on thattoo. A witness states that Anthony Taylor
and his crew showed up at afriend's house and invited them to a party
at the quarry later that night.According to authorities, it is believed that
this night, July seventh, nineteenninety five, is the night Daniel is
murdered, either late that night orearly into the eighth at this party.

(22:33):
From statements to police, we gatherthat there could have been around a dozen
possible witnesses to Daniel's murder that night, all underage kids he went to school
with or quote gang members. However, on July eighth, a girl will
call MC says that l M whowas Anthony Taylor's girlfriend at the time,

(22:53):
told her that she saw Daniel aroundfive thirty pm on the eighth. She
does not say where, and Ido not have an interview with the police
from her. On July eleventh,nineteen ninety five, at five point fifty
five pm, a nine to oneone call came into the Ada Police Dispatch
from Pastor Bill Galbraith. Bill,at the time was the pastor for the

(23:15):
first Presbyterian Church in Aida and theScout troop leader for Troop nine. He
informed dispatch that several boy Scouts fromhis troop, which was also Daniel's troop,
had reported to him that they hadfound a body at the west side
of the old Brick plant or quarry, just east of the church near the
Rock Cliffs. Daniel was five tenand around one hundred and fifty pounds,

(23:38):
so reports of the body being sixfeet tall, weighing one hundred and sixty
pounds, with long black hair andno facial hair. Age is approximated at
twenty five years old, and atthe bottom other descriptors are recorded with height
being five to four or sixty fourinches and weight is noted at nine ninety

(24:00):
two point five pounds, along withthe age of fifteen and the race of
white. It also says his hairis brown. These two descriptors are both
on the same report, one atthe top, one at the bottom.
I think this is the important partfor everybody to realize why we had so
much doubt. I got it autossybefore the sheriff did. I had one

(24:23):
in hand I had waiting up thereat the Emmy's office. Ford at it
said five to four. That's whatI started questioning. And I saw a
picture of the body and the hairwent along the shoulder to the end,
and I said, just explain thislong black hair to me. It seems
that the body was found in theactive decay stage, near the end of

(24:47):
decomposition, with only advanced decay orskeletonization remaining, which would take around a
month, even in the heat.So the me did not note what stages
the maggots were in, nor theirshape, size, or color. Maggots
can be present at any stage,but these factors can tell us how long
they have been present. Since thesethings were not recorded, we cannot use

(25:12):
them for etymology purposes. I questionedthe medical exam on that bit because I
had took homicide investigation courses just gotout of them, and I said,
you put the day of death theday you found the body. He said,
how else were we going to know? I said, the gestation of
the maggots, and he said,we don't do that for a homicide investigation.

(25:32):
You need to know the time ofdeath. I had questions, I
had valid questions, and they wouldjust tell me. I was in denial.
With all of this information, ourteam believes the body could have been
dead for at least two weeks toa month with no blood present at the
scene other than one small leaf,and it's a suspected stabbing. We believe

(25:52):
that there's a good chance that thebody was killed somewhere else and then placed
at this scene. This would alsoexplain why if the body was older than
two weeks. No one found itin this spot prior, as we know
that the Scouts regularly meet at thechurch every Tuesday and played around this spot
each week, yet did not witnessthe body there in previous weeks. In

(26:15):
August of nineteen ninety six, Gailspeaks with Daniel's dentist, doctor Clark.
Doctor Clark didn't believe that they couldhave matched ID with the records that he
provided. He stated that an Xray had not been done of Daniel's teeth
since nineteen ninety one, when Danielwas eleven years old. He said he
would have lost teeth and new oneswould have grown in, so it would

(26:37):
be unlikely that an ID could bemade from them. Those x rays from
nineteen ninety one were the ones sentto the Medical Examiner's odontologist and used in
the comparison and eventual ID of thebody as Daniel. Clearly the x rays
that were sent from Daniel's dentist wasdone when Daniel was eleven years old.

(26:59):
There's a huge gap in between thosetimes. We do have the official reports
for that comparison. It's very lightand we agree it seems unlikely a match
could have been made from them.July of two thousand and six, Daniel's
family does a news story about possibleexhumation of the body to test it to

(27:19):
find out if it really was Daniel. The emmy stated after it aired that
they had a tissue sample from thebody. The family is told they will
need to obtain a court order forthe samples. In January of two thousand
and seven, the family calls theTextas lab to see how the testing is
coming along. They are told thenthat they never received the samples from the

(27:44):
Medical Examiner's Office for comparison. SoI called the ma's office and asked them,
and they said it's too decomposed.I said, I don't care.
It belongs to me. Now Ihave a court order. Will you please
send it to my lab and theycan determine how decompos it is. And
they said, no, you'll haveto get another court order. And I
was just every time they did thatto me, it knocked the breath out

(28:07):
of me. They just kept knockingme on my feet. Family requested another
court order to release the sample tothe lab anyway. While they are waiting
on this second court order, andsix months later, Joe Glover finds samples
from blood from the body in thebasement of the courthouse in Ada, labeled
as Daniel Furr. It is sealedin an evidence bag with a sample of

(28:32):
DNA a leaf with blood and hairsamples. The DNA and hair are sent
to the lab and tested against Gail. That sample was confirmed to be Daniel's
DNA. But where is the chainof custody for these samples? Why were
they stored in the courthouse basement insteadof the medical Examiner's office or an official

(28:52):
evidence locker. How did they havethese samples after the medical examiner themselves stated
that their samples were not viable andhad no other samples. Was the body
found at the quarry misidentified due toan overwhelmed system in the months after the
Oklahoma City bombing. Why did themedical examiner report one physical finding of the

(29:14):
body only to change it later.Why has the autopsy report been left pending
for twenty eight years. To hearour full episode on Daniel's case, find
the Sirens podcast streaming wherever you getyour podcasts. You can also find Daniel's
case in our new true crime book, Sins of the South, a true
crime case collection to advocate for anywhereyou get your books online. Don't let

(29:40):
Daniel be forgotten. Don't let hiscase grow colder. Now, for those
of you who enjoy a bit ofyou more with the crime Private dis is
a witty take on the world ofprivate investigators. It's like detective work with

(30:02):
the side of laughter. I gotthe opportunity to interview Jeff Mudget. Jeff
is the author of Bloodstains and hasan eight episode series on the History Channel
named American Ripper. He's even donea Ted Talk. Jeff is the great
great grandson of Herman Webster Mudget.To true crime people, we know that

(30:25):
name well, but if you're nota true crime person, Herman Webster Mudget
is the real name for the infamousserial killer HH Holmes. This guy is
widely considered America's first serial killer.He is the worst of the worst.
HH Holmes built himself a murder castlein Chicago during the World's Fair in eighteen
ninety three. Holmes was also acareer criminal, with crimes including insurance fraud,

(30:49):
checked forging, horse theft, andof course, murder. His number
of victims vary from source to source. I've seen as high as two hundred
victims and have also seen as lowas nine even one for sure. And
the reason Jeff's done a Ted Talkand had a History Channel eight episode limited
series and written his book Bloodstains isnot only because the HH Holmes thing,

(31:12):
but he also thinks that HH Holmesis or was Jack the Ripper as well.
So enjoy the episode. Let meintroduce you to everyone here. So
we have Jeff Mudget here today.You're a jack of all trades, Jeffy
looking you up. You're an author, You're a TV star, Hey,

(31:33):
History Channel TV star. You dida Ted Talk. I didn't know that
you were on Sort and Scale.I didn't know that. I didn't listen
to that, but that that musthave been years ago. Maybe I should
give a background of you a littlebit too. Great great grandson of the
most evil American in history? Yeah, great, how proud to be.
That's crazy to me that from myunderstanding, you got told this like you

(31:57):
you didn't know this your whole life, Like when did you find out that
you were a great great grandkid toforty forty? I'm thirty eight. It
was a family dinner. I readabout it in the book, which is
you know on my revision is comingout here soon, which introduced to all
your listeners sometime in your show today. But it was a family dinner,

(32:20):
and my grandmother was she was herhobby was looking up our direct descendancy lines,
yeah, and ancestors. And herbelief all these years had been that
it had been the infamous or famoushowever you want to call it, Civil
War General Robert E. Lee.Oh all that, and she hired these

(32:42):
professional teams to run it down professionally, you know, and give her a
full report, verified, certified,all that stuff. Spent a lot of
money. That's crazy. I thoughtyou were going to say she was like
on ancestry dot com, you know, or something like that. But she
got a whole team. Oh yeah, oh yeah, no, that was
her deal. But that was along you know, that was twenty five
years ago. I could be yourgrandfather? How old you, Jeff?

(33:06):
If you don't mind me asking sixtysix? Here pretty quick? There you
go, So you could be mydad. You could be my grandpa.
If who were like, you don'tknow my mom, I'm just kidding.
You never know, I don't know. You look kind of cute. You
didn't look kind of cute. Shemight be pretty there you go? Yeah,
yeah, So yeah, So you'resitting around dinner and your grandma's trying

(33:28):
to figure out from Roberty Lee.She's convinced of that. What happens next,
well, she sits us all down, and she's spooning out her famous
chicken dumplings, you know, andwe're all eager to dive in, and
then she says, I've got somethingto tell you. All the pros came
back to me and said that Ineed to take up another hobby. There's

(33:49):
something I need to do differently now. And then she told us what they
what they told her about. Itwasn't Robert E. Lee. It was
it was a man that, youknow, was every major newspaper in the
eighteen nineties was referring to as theDevil. And it's, you know,
not just a criminal, the devilfor sure. And she said, and

(34:14):
I, you know, and Ilooked it up. And then and then
my brother was her, was herassistant and all this stuff. He'd always
been involved with it too. Hejumped in and said, yeah, I
did some research and this was thiswas not a good man. And my
grandfather sitting there and my grandmother wasa very quiet, stoic man. I
had very little relationship with it.And he's sitting there and I could I

(34:36):
was watching him, you could,you know, because this would have been
his grandfather, right, Yeah,for sure. And he explodes at the
table Richard and storms out of theroom. But he's yelling at the family
that name will never be used inmy house ever again and storms out of
the room, and we're all justkind of sitting there like, Wow,

(34:58):
we were just looking for apple pie, you know, we weren't looking at
this. And you're writing blood stainsand then you find out while you're researching
what I find is the craziest thing. Yes, it's crazy that you're really
ancestor, but then you've up theante even more. What did you find
out while researching Hh Holmes? Thatis crazy In the whole true crime it's

(35:20):
the one that people get just violentlyangry with me about my theory about Holmes
having been Jack the Ripper. Jefffigures out that Holmes likely was Jack the
Ripper. That's what I'm doing agiant series on right now, is Jack
the Ripper. That's what History hiredme to do with them, Yeah for
eight for eight episodes. Yeah,that's so crazy. So what was the

(35:44):
first piece of evidence when you weredoing your research that puts you towards this
conclusion. Well, and it wasn't. I wasn't the first. Oh no,
there were other people, historians thatbelieved there was a connection. I
didn't know that with Holmes and beingin London selling body part there, working
to up his business, and thenall of a sudden they started looking at

(36:06):
his handwriting comparisons with some of thefamous Jack the Ripper letters, the Deer
Boss, the Sausage Jack letters,those And having worked with handwriting comparisons at
law, I knew that this wasdifficult. That and pretty much in the
nineteenth century Richard, that was therewas no DNA, there were no fingerprints,

(36:28):
there were dental records and handwriting thatthe law police would come to a
crime scene of Jack the Ripper andthey'd see blood everywhere, and they go
like, well, there's no evidence, and then they'd leave. Like nowadays
that would be a treasure trove ofso much evidence. He wouldn't have made
a pass murder one. But backin those days they needed someone to see
them exactly doing it, get caughtred handed. Maybe fingerprints, because I
think fingerprints are still pretty new,so that was in its infancy, so

(36:52):
you're right, handwriting might have beenone of the only few things that they
could actually figure out right well onthese and these guys were on that before
me, and they, you know, they they found out what I was
doing. They got a hold ofme, and they're they're good, they're
good people, and they they said, hey, we've got this. And
if you watch my TED talk you'llsee that I use some of their with
their permission, some of their materialabout the Holmes letters being compared with the

(37:16):
Dear Boss letter, and we putit up on screen at TED and then
we asked the audience that I thinkthere was like twenty five hundred people there,
but it was. We asked them, we know you're not in Scotland
yard, we know you're not inthe FBI. I just look at this
picture up here on the wall aboveme. Look at this. What do
you see there? And there thewhole audience one, it's the same handwrite.

(37:37):
It definitely looks similar. I've seenyour TED target and I knew that
wasn't going to go anywhere as faras history. Improof. All right,
Just somebody's saying, hey, itlooks the same. No, no,
so I located with some help fromsome of the previous law enforcement people I've
worked with in California, an outfitthat did computer programming and comparison for the

(38:00):
FBI in Scotland, Yard and theCIA with handwriting, and they were eager
to help me. They compared theDeer Boss letter with the Holmes handwriting comparisons,
and they came back with ninety sevenpercent. You're saying that even me,
if I wrote two different letters,it probably wouldn't come back ninety seven
percent now. And they told methat, you know, they were working

(38:22):
with a font that was different nowthan back in the nineteenth century, and
that if we really wanted to getthis a direct match, we had to
invest in them putting together a newprogram and doing it again. And they
and they thought they probably could comeout with one hundred percent. So,
you know, all this all ofa sudden slapping in the face. Here

(38:43):
we go. We got this evilman that all of a sudden is now
possibly solving the most incredible true crimemystery that ever was. The first American
serial killer was like the first serialkiller, like that chacter. It just
adds the whole new layer to thewhole thing. Okay, so we have

(39:04):
the Deer Boss Saucy Jackie letter.They saying that that matches too, because
I know the Saucy Jackie and theDeer Boss they think are written by like
there's other people, not just toyou that think it's written by Jack the
Ripper, but there's also people thatthink they're written by some media man at
the time to keep the whole storyrolling, like as if to keep business
alive for the story, which Idon't think a brutal murder like that needs
us letters being said, I thinkthey kind of stayed in the papers for

(39:25):
a bit. Anyway, all thehistorians realized when you look at it,
Saucy Jack and Deer Boss are notwritten by the state man. No,
So what they came up with wasthat Deer Boss was a journalistic hoax.
Okay, yeah, because they wantedto go with Saucy Jack and the murders
for sure, and that's all ripperologistspretty much went that direction. And then
they used to call journalistic hoke.So when these guys came back to me

(39:51):
with this isn't a journalistic hoake,this is probably your great great grandfather wrote
this letter, and that led tothe number three murder there. I don't
know if you want to go thisfar into it, but that was Catherine
Eddos. It's who the letter describedwhat was going to happen to her in
when she was being killed. She'spart of the double event, right,

(40:13):
She's the second girl in the doubleevent, which, you know what,
history has never actually sat down,And I'm trying to get the guys at
the MGM Amazon to go with meon this. We're trying to sit down
and show that it probably wasn't possiblethose two on the same night, one
hour apon. I've been doing socialresearch on Jack the Ripper. I don't
think long Liz was killed by thesame person. I don't need White Chapel

(40:35):
was a disaster, murders, rapes, robberies, theft, prostitution everywhere.
It wasn't at that place. Iwouldn't be shocked. I that was just
someone hearing knowing Jack the Ripper's onthe loose, I'm gonna slit a throat.
I can get away with it.Same thing with Mary An Kelly.
I don't want to get too farinto it. I think there's no way
that's the same man the Mary AnnKelly, and I'm trying to show them
that too, and how we cango into the m O and the evidence

(40:59):
there and break that down. Butthe first two, the first two,
I'm convinced were by the same man. And then I'll give you an interesting
uh story about it. While wewere over there filming in London and History
didn't want to put this on theshow, Well I will. I will
take that History Channel for That's whatI mean. Take that History channel.

(41:20):
You cat sense for me, HistoryChannel. Yeah, it's kind of come
out by somebody, it will.But you know, I'm sitting there and
and you know what, filming inLondon with the crew there for mcgillo production
was awesome. They treated me likea king. It was fun. My
my co host, Amaryllis was xC I A and we were I always
I used to call her Scully Xfiles. Yeah. I've seen some clips

(41:43):
I didn't want to watch because Ididn't want to ruin this interview. I've
got to watch them right after this. So I'm sitting there in the hotel
bar. We finish producing all daylong and we're resting, and they're that
the crews down in the in thepit, the fire pit of the hotel
planning on the next day, shootand uh, these two fellas come up
and suits and ties and they walkup to me at the bar. Mister

(42:04):
Madget, we'd like to introduce ourselves. Was Scotland yard, Oh, I
said, you know, And theydidn't. I didn't ask to see their
badge or anything. They could havebeen lying to me. I don't know.
That was me, Jeff, thatwas me. I'd be turning and
running because I probably did something illegalthe day before. Yeah, I was
worried about it. Here world therebreaking down the UK. The English people's

(42:28):
most I don't know, talked abouta favorite I don't know, mystery of
all time. They actually got verystoic and very solid, and they they
said, we just want you toknow we don't agree with what you're saying
about Jack having been your great greatgreat grandfather, but we do a bee

(42:52):
with your theory that there was acopy. It wasn't one man in five
work. And that's you know,that's right from there, and then they
turn and walk on. If youwant to listen to the rest of that
hour plus long interview with Jeff Mudget, go over to Private dis and take
a listen. Also, if youwant to hear to listen to the rest
of our episodes. Please do Thanksfor having us on the show, and

(43:15):
we'll do this anytime. We canlove your peace. Now for a quick
true crime fix in the morning.Morning Cup of Murder delivers bite sized episodes
that will wake you up faster thanyour caffeine fix. It's the perfect way

(43:36):
to start your day with a joltof suspense. There were two more murders
fifteen miles away. Elsa Arrives.I found those telephones and Olyc chrisity lines.
We have a weird hun described byone investigator as reminiscent of morning murder.
Some crimes are so gruesome the detailsare enough to make you sick.

(43:58):
On November thirtieth eighteen, a manwas sentenced for crimes that, when made
public, shocked everyone who read thehorrific details. So if you like your
coffee hot but your bones chilled,sit back and start your day with a
morning cup of Murder. On Augusttwenty ninth, twenty ten, trailbrike riders

(44:19):
near bil Anglo State Forest in NewSouth Wales stumbled upon the skeletal remains of
a woman who eventually would be identifiedas Carly Pierce Stevenson. Initially linked to
Ivan Malott and the other backpacker murders. It wasn't until later that forensics would
place her time of death years afternineteen ninety six, when Ivan Malott was
finally sent to jail, called simplyAngel by law enforcement due to the T

(44:44):
shirt she was wearing. In twentyten, a public plea was made for
any information on their unidentified body,and finally, in October of twenty fifteen,
she was formally identified as twenty yearold Carle Now, just months before
e Joel was given her name.A second body was found near way Narka,
South Australia on July fifteenth, twentyfifteen, six hundred and eighty miles

(45:08):
away from where Carly was dumped.The remains seemed to belong to a young
child and were found surrounded by girl'sclothing by a passing motorists who went to
examine an abandoned suitcase on the sideof the Karunda Highway, believing the girls
suffered from incredibly violent deaths several yearsbefore her remains were dumped in that suitcase,

(45:28):
Police again made a public plea forinformation and posted details about what was
found with and near the body.After more than twelve hundred calls to crime
stoppers. One caller identified the handmadequilt found at the scene as one made
by a child's grandmother. The womandied in twenty twelve, believing her daughter

(45:49):
and granddaughter were living interstate, andwith the help of DNA extracted from the
child's skeletal remains, which were thencompared to the DNA retained from a neonatal
heel prick, a match was madethat not only identified the little girl as
two year old Condollese Pierce, butshowed that she was the daughter of Carly
Pierce Stephenson, the woman found yearsbefore and over six hundred miles away.

(46:14):
The pair had been reported missing fromAlice Springs back in two thousand and nine.
According to the information gathered by investigators, Carly Jade Pierce Stephenson, born
in nineteen eighty eight, had herdaughter, Condalise Kiera Pearce, in two
thousand and six. The pair werebelieved to have left the Alice Springs area
in two thousand and eight so Carlycould go find work and might have traveled

(46:37):
to areas like Darwin, Adelaide,the Murray and Riverland districts, Victoria,
and Canberra, but were last officiallyseen on November eight, two thousand and
eight, when they were stopped bypolice on the Stuart Highway, and again
in December of two thousand and eightin the Canberra area, appealing to all
motel, hotel and caravan park ownersin those areas and asking them to look

(47:01):
for Carly and Condolese in their records. Police learned that on September fourth,
two thousand and nine, Carly's motherfiled a missing persons report that was closed
just over a month later when shewas reassured that they were safe and well,
but did not want family to contactthem at the time. Police believed

(47:21):
that Carly was killed in the BolongloForest on December fourteenth or fifteenth of two
thousand and eight, and that herdaughter was killed some time after that in
a totally different location. Years afterher death, someone used Carly's phone to
send false quote proof of life messagesto loved ones, and both identities were
used by third parties to commit socialsecurity and identity fraud. Though Carly's mother

(47:45):
died back in twenty twelve, herstepfather and stepbrother were still alive and living
in Alice Springs. The remains werereturned to the area and a funeral service
was held in December of twenty fifteen. Following whatever leads they had, a
joint investigation began, and investigators followingthe money trail were led to a woman

(48:07):
who appeared in a credit union inJune of twenty ten, claiming she was
Carly Pier Stephenson in a wheelchair andaccompanied by a man. Another woman impersonating
the deceased at a Centralink office inSouth Australia came in that same year.
Within just days of releasing the identitiesof Carle and Condoleise, police reported that

(48:29):
they had several suspects and that onewas already in jail awaiting sentencing on an
unrelated charge. On October twenty eighth, twenty fifteen, forty one year old
Daniel James Holdham was arrested in Cesinock, New South Wales and later charged with
the murder of Carly Pierre Stephenson.According to the investigators, Daniel was in

(48:50):
a relationship with a woman named HazelPassmore, who allegedly stole the woman's identity
just after the murder, and mighthave been in a relationship with Carly at
the time of her death. Daniel, back in two thousand and eight,
had been in an accident with athen partner that resulted in the deaths of
her two children and her leg beingamputated. She is believed to be the

(49:12):
woman who was impersonating Carly in thewheelchair in August of two thousand and eight.
The month before the accident, sheuploaded images of her two children and
Condollise Pierce at a motor show inAlice Springs on her Facebook, further connecting
Daniel to the crime. Police allegedlytraced a signal from his cell phone to
the location near where Carly was eventuallyfound around the suspected time of her murder.

(49:38):
On December fifteenth, twenty fifteen,he was arrested again for the murder
of Condollise, who police now believeddied just five days after her mother,
and he was refused bail after anumber of delays to collect more evidence,
now coming from a total of fivejurisdictions. It was alleged during his committal
hearing in August of twenty seven thatDaniel total witness he stepped on Carly's throat,

(50:04):
crushing her windpipe, and admitted toburying her in the Forest. He
also said he stopped at a store, purchased some duct tape and garbage bags,
and then suffocated Condalise at a motelroom in Narandera and put her into
that suitcase. After making his firstappearance in the Supreme Court of New South
Wales on December one, twenty seventeen, on July thirty one, twenty eighteen,

(50:28):
Daniel Holdham pleaded guilty to the murders. During his plea, the details
of the crime were revealed and thepublic learned for the first time that Daniel,
a man with no prior history ofviolence against women or sexual interest in
children, murdered Carly in order torape her two year old daughter. He
allegedly kept a quote child sex hitlist that contained a list of children's names

(50:52):
with the words like consent and forcedwritten next to them, and next to
Condalise's name was the word rape.Condoleese, when found had a diaper wrapped
around her skull and a bald updishcloth stuffed into her mouth. Police believe
that it is highly likely that shewas still alive when she was gagged and

(51:14):
placed into the suitcase. On Novemberthirtieth, twenty eighteen, Daniel James Holdhom
was sentenced to two consecutive life sentenceswithout parole. Thank you for joining me
in my morning cup of murder.If you want to help support the podcast,
there's always Patreon or just sharing itwith your true crime obsessed friends,

(51:34):
and remember stay safe and for thetrue crime lovers intrigued by the unknown person's
unknown exposed cases of unsolved murders andof disappearances, It's a deep dive into
the mysteries that continue to barefully investigateus, both in Wills, where our
host is based, and in therest of the world. Persons are known

(51:59):
as a true crime podcast dedicated tounsolved murders and missing persons cases from all
over the world. I'm John,I live in Wales, UK, and
I research rights and produce each episode. New episodes are released every other Monday.
Cases I have covered recently include thedisappearance of Robin Graham from California in

(52:23):
nineteen seventy the unsolved murder of ZegametziMogamazzi in Botswana nineteen ninety four, the
nineteen seventy three unsolved murder of BrianMcDermott in Northern Ireland, and the two
thousand and eight unsolved Murder of NataiMellary Manning from christ Church, New Zealand.

(52:45):
The segment I'm sharing with you todayis the beginning of the episode about
the nineteen eighty six unsolved murder ofDanuta Catchmaska. Danuta was a Polish born
doctor living in Birmingham, UK.You can find the rest of the episode
by searching for Persons Unknown in yourpodcast directory, or alternatively, you can

(53:07):
follow the link in the show notes. There you will also find a transcript
for the episode and a list ofthe sources I used. Thank you for
listening. It was January twenty second, nineteen eighty six and enthusiastic amateur photographer

(53:29):
Paul Kernitch was spending his Wednesday eveninggoing through some slides on a home projector.
At nine pm, he suddenly becameaware of a strong smell of smoke,
often through the living room. Hequickly got on the phone and heard
nine ninety nine for the Emergency Services, requesting a fire engine be dispatched to

(53:51):
his property in Coniston Close, PaulGreen in the southeast of Birmingham. The
response was prompt and a team often firefighters soon arrived at the scene.
A cursory search discovered that the blazewas not at mister Kernash's home. The
smoke was coming from a house afew doors away, which belonged to a

(54:14):
popular local GP general practitioner, doctorDanita Catchmasker. The firefighters done breathing apparatus
and approached the house. They foundthe front door locked, so forced entry
to the property. Visibility was extremelypoor as the firefighters were enveloped in a

(54:37):
thick black blanket of smoke. Evenso, it was apparent that the fire
was contained to the ground floor,specifically the kitchen. The blaze was able
to be put out relatively quickly,within a matter of minutes. The crew
began sorting through the wreckage of thefire, attain what had gone on and

(55:00):
discover its cause. One firefighter crawledover a mound of cold and burnt debris,
not knowing what it was. Ashort time later, at ten pm,
it was discovered to be the charredremains of a human skeleton. Station

(55:21):
Officer Steve Pearce, who was incharge of the operation, contacted detectives and
the West Midlands Fire Investigation Team.They were dispatched swiftly and an incident ring
was established at nearby Sparkhal Police station. Attempts were made to formally identify the
body. Police suspected the body tobe the house owner, fifty two year

(55:47):
old dan Uter Catchmasker. Dental recordssoon proved that this was correct. A
pathology report showed that Danuta had beenstruck forcefully several times with a sharp heavy
object, probably a small axe orMacHattie. Five winds had been administered to

(56:09):
the back of the head and atleast one to the forehead. Later,
at the inquest, it was saida total of seven blows were counted.
Blood found on the walls testified thatthe attack had happened in the kitchen.
The injuries to the head had renderedDanata unconscious. The blow to the forehead

(56:32):
had fractured the skull, and itwas determined that Danita would have died from
this injury alone. However, shewas still alive when doused in inflammable liquid
and set alight. Before this hadhappened, Danita had first been placed atop
a pyre of pillows and bedding.A tea towel was found stuffed inside Danita's

(56:58):
mouth. It had been new togag her and prevent any screams or calls
for help from being heard. Thoughthe following information was not released at the
time, pathologist doctor Keith Scott laterrevealed at the inquest that there were signs
of a violent struggle. Danuta hadfought back hard knives and food items were

(57:21):
strewn around the body, as wellas copious amounts of blood. There has
never been any evidence released that suggestsDanuta was sexually assaulted. Police wrote a
loss as to the motive for sucha brutal slaying robbery seemed unlightly as a

(57:42):
large amount of cash and valuables wereleft untouched. Hundreds of pounds in notes
and travelers checks were found all aroundthe house. A newspaper article in the
Birmingham Post in March nineteen ninety sevenlater said that a total of eight hundred
pounds and was discovered at the scene. P. C. Jackson, who

(58:05):
was one of the first officers atthe house on Coniston Close, said there
was no sign of a break in. Therefore, it was speculated that Danita
may have known the killer within aday of the murder. Police did say
it was believed that Danita had anumber of male friends and they were attempting
to trace and speak with them.Danita was born in Poland during the mid

(58:31):
nineteen thirties. Her father, Stephen, had been a judge there before emigrating
with his family. I am mansureexactly when this happened, but by the
mid nineteen eighties the catch Maskers hadbeen in the country for decades. By
nineteen eighty six, Danita had beena general practitioner in Birmingham for fifteen years.

(58:58):
At the time of her death,she owned two GP surgeries and personally
oversaw around four thousand patients. Onesurgery was on Westfield Road in Acox Green
and the other on Addison Road,King's Heath. Some of her patients had
trouble pronouncing her last name catch Masker, so she was known by patients and

(59:22):
colleagues alike as Dr Ka. Theamiable GP was held in high regard by
the local community. Her neighbors saidshe was kind and would often give them
presents and gifts. Danita was lovedand respected by her patients. She often
went the extra mile for them andcounted many as friends. Danita's parents lived

(59:49):
in Birmingham too. Her father,Stephen, had been ill with cancer for
some time and her mother, Elena, is described in one press report as
having been suffering stress due to thestrain of caring for a terminally ill husband.
In a particularly cruel turn of fate, Stephen passed away just six days

(01:00:10):
after his daughter's murder. Danita hadat least one sister, Alisha. He
was a social worker living in Newcastlein the North of England. She traveled
down numerous times over the first fewweeks of the investigation to provide valuable information
to the police about Danita's life.Confusingly, later newspaper reports from the nineteen

(01:00:38):
nineties referred to a sister named Irena. He was then living in the south
of England. Both the Alisha andArena mentioned have the same English surname.
I'm guessing a married name, soI assume it is the same person,
but for some reason she was referredto by different first names. Danita was

(01:01:02):
a wealthy woman. As well asthe two surgeries and house in green Hall,
she also owned two cottages in Stratfordupon Avon. I believe she may
have owned another house in Birmingham too. Danita enjoyed foreign holidays and went abroad
two or three times a year.She had traveled extensively in India, China

(01:01:24):
and Sri Lanka. When she died, Danita left no will, so letters
of administration were granted to her seventysix year old mother, Elena. Elena
was left to decide what to dowith her daughter's considerable estate. It totalled

(01:01:45):
two hundred two thousand, three hundredand eighty four pounds, the equivalent of
over half a million pounds today.To put this into perspective, the average
house price in the UK in nineteeneighty six was a little over three pounds.
A woman named Edna, who workedas a receptionist at Danuta's doctor's practice,

(01:02:08):
spoke to the Birmingham Matter News aboutthe murder. She was in complete
shock and could not fathom what couldhave happened to have led to her beloved
boss being killed in such a greaesomemanner. What made this murder even more
baffling and disconcerting was the fact thatalmost four years to the day, another

(01:02:30):
body had been found at the sameaddress, also having been unrecognizably burnt in
a fire. To continue listening tothe episode, follow the link in the
show notes, or search for PersonsAnn in your podcast app. Thank you
for listening. Next, we haveFresh Hell, a podcast where two women

(01:03:00):
from opposite sides of the Atlantic bringyou tales and murder and mystery. On
one half of that podcast is ourvery own host, Johanna. If you're
into true crime that is both engagingand pulls no punches, this one's for
you. I'm Annie in America andI'm Johanna in Austria, and you're listening

(01:03:22):
to Fresh Heel, your favorite internationalpodcast if you've never listened to us.
We are friends who met online discoveredwe had a similar dark sense of humor
and an interest in the Maca,but from very different global perspectives. We
started this podcast almost five years agoand we've still never met in person.

(01:03:43):
It's a whole thing, and theoriginal full version of this episode is one
I told Johanna about way back intwenty nineteen. We were younger then,
but our audio is better now.This is the tragic story of Major Henry
Rathbone and Claire Rah Harris Rathbone,the couple who attended the play at Ford's
Theater with the Lincolns on the nightPresident Lincoln was shot. It's a story

(01:04:09):
of murder, madness, and moremurder, So let's get into it,
and just a brief caution that thisepisode deals with untreated mental health issues,
spousal abuse, and murder. ClaraHamilton Harris was born in eighteen thirty four,
one of four children born to SenatorIra Harris of New York and his

(01:04:29):
wife Louisa, who unfortunately died whenClara was around ten. Three years later,
Ira married Pauline Rathbone, the widowof Jared L. Rathbone, a
successful merchant who went on to becomethe mayor of Albany, New York.
Jared and Pauline also had four children, and two of their sons, Jared
Junior and Henry, would survive tobecome adults. When Pauline Rathbone and Senator

(01:04:55):
Ira Harris married, Clara and Henrybecame step siblings. Clara was a couple
years older than he was they wereeleven and thirteen. They became quick friends,
and although Clara's mother told her tothink of Henry as family, they
were not family, and she fellin love with him. He felt the
same way. They were both witty, sarcastic, and smart, and they

(01:05:17):
were both from well to do,politically connected upstate New York families. Despite
those families disapproving, or maybe inpart because of it, Henry and Clara
were finally engaged in eighteen sixty one, just before the start of the Civil
War, as Henry had joined Unionforces. Henry survived some of the most

(01:05:38):
brutal battles in one of the worstwars, including Antietam, the bloodiest day
in US history, with twenty twothousand, seven hundred and seventeen dead,
wounded, or missing. While Henrywas away, Clara met and became friends
with the First Lady Mary Lincoln,a close friend of her stepmother's, and
was making friends in soul connections duringthis time as well. At the end

(01:06:02):
of the war, Henry is amajor and on Good Friday eighteen sixty five,
the Lincoln's are going to attend aplay with friends, Major Henry Rathbone
and his fiancee Clara Harris, whowere honored to attend with them. Lincoln
hadn't actually wanted to go to thetheater that night, but once there,
he was enjoying the play seated ina comfortable rocking chair, his favorite type

(01:06:24):
of chair, as his height madestandard chairs uncomfortable to sit in. It
was during Act three of the play, when the officer guarding the door to
the President's box went to get adrink and assessing John Wilkes, Booth snuck
into the box and fired one shotinto the back of President Lincoln's head.
The box is chaos, full ofsmoke from the gun being fired, and

(01:06:45):
Mary Lincoln can't stop screaming. Henrytried to get a hold of Booth,
and the two struggle until Booth pulledout a large knife and stepped Henry,
ripping the knife down from shoulder toelbow, the blade touching the bone in
some places. As Booth tried toflee, Henry tried once again to grab
Booth, who was trying to leapfrom the box to the stage. It's

(01:07:05):
believed that Henry's actions caused Booth tobreak his leg in his attempt to escape,
and if that hadn't happened, Boothmight never have been caught, but
that's a topic for a different day. Clara applied a tourniquet to Henry's arm,
unknowingly saving his life. Henry passesout from blood loss, and it's
only then that people realize how seriouslyhe's been hurt. We have a letter

(01:07:29):
written by Clara around this time,and she writes, quote, Henry has
been suffering a great deal with hisarm. The knife went from the elbow
nearly to the shoulder inside, cuttingin artery, nerves and veins. He
bled so profusely as to make himvery weak. My whole clothing as I
sat in my box was saturated literallywith blood, as well as my hands

(01:07:51):
and face end quote. President Lincolndied of his wound at seven twenty two
am on April fifth, eighteenth,eighteen sixty five. Henry and Clara finally
married in July of eighteen sixty seven, but it was said Henry was increasingly
depressed and irritable. I think wecan make an educated guest that between the

(01:08:13):
horrific battles he survived during the CivilWar and the fight in the box the
night Lincoln was assassinated, he wassuffering from a serious case of PTSD.
Henry was not okay. He struggledwith terrible survivor skill for not having been
able to save the President. Claraand Henry's involvement in Lincoln's assassination made them
household names, and the attention hadbegun to make Henry already struggling with his

(01:08:36):
mental health. Increasingly paranoid, hestarted to think people were talking about him
in a way that sometimes scared Clara, not that there was anything anyone could
do about it. In eighteen seventy, Henry resigned from the army. The
same year, the first child,they would have three children in total,
was born with the rank of privatecolonel. But once he left the army,

(01:08:59):
he found it difficult to keep ajob as his mental health was deterior
reading. He started to become suspiciousof his wife, who he thought was
planning to leave him and take thechildren, and he accused Clara of adultery.
He was angry, and he wasincreasingly bitter that she seemed to love
the children more than him, andhe'd began to threaten her. They traveled
all over the United States and toEurope seeking treatments for him, but nothing

(01:09:25):
helped, and it wasn't as thoughhe hadn't seen the worst of the front
lines and what they had to offer. For example, at the Crater of
Petersburg, he was shot in thechest and then left for dead for sixty
eight hours, sixty eight hours duringwhich time he managed to not pass out
and to stay conscious because he knewif he passed out, his fellow soldiers

(01:09:48):
would bury him alive in a massgrave. If he did also have other
underlying mental health issues, which manythink he may have, he just survived
some of the worst sort of thingsimaginable, like real bernice kind of stuff.
Despite Henry's increasingly poor mental health,in eighteen eighty two, President Arthur

(01:10:09):
appointed him as the US consul tothe province of Hanover, and the family
moved to Germany. Henry was drinkingheavily, and he was regularly unfaithful,
yet still convinced Clara was the onecheating. Clara's sister was visiting them,
and there had been some discussion whetherit might make sense that the two of
them should return home with the children. Clara's family wanted her to just come

(01:10:33):
home, and this irrational behavior unfortunatelycame to a tragic end on December twenty
third, eighteen eighty three. Thereare several accounts of the specifics, and
we've chosen one from the pall MallGazette December thirty first, eighteen eighty three,
quote the murder of an American ladyat Hanover. Further particulars have been

(01:10:57):
received by telegraph at the London Office. The telegram says quote. Though many
details of the Wrathbone tragedy are concealedfrom the public, enough is known to
show that Missus Rathbone sacrificed herself inorder to save the lives of her children.
Colonel Rathbone was known in former yearsfor his kindly, genial nature.

(01:11:21):
He had for the last four yearsbecome melancholy, morose, and suspicious,
and was subject to fits of uncontrollablepassion. Four years ago he went to
carlsbat hoping to be cured, butreturned rather worse than better. Of late,
his condition grew worse and his fitsof passion were more frequent, so

(01:11:43):
that his family had discussed the wisdomof permitting his wife and the children to
remain with him. Missus Rathbone appearsto have been fully aware of the approaching
crisis. She is by all describedas a lady of exceptional character, gentle,
loving, and untied in her devotionto her husband. She lived only
to watch over him. On theSunday before the tragedy, Rathbone sat moodily

(01:12:09):
at the table of the drawing roomfor some hours, not speaking a word,
but staring blankly before him. Atfive point thirty, he rose from
his bed, and, passing outof his apartment with a light in one
hand a revolver in the other,he went to the door of the room
where his little daughter Pauline slept withher nurse knocking. He asked the nurse,

(01:12:31):
is Pauline in bed? Yes?She answered, Are the boys in
their room? Yes? Open thedoor. I want to see them.
By this time, Missus Rathbone cameout after him. Just as the nurse
was opening the door, she said, my dear husband, do calm yourself,

(01:12:51):
And just as he was about toenter the room, she called out,
nurse, locked the door. Savethe children. There's going to be
some dreadful work. The nurse thenclosed the door, while Missus Rathbone drew
her husband away and appealed to himto go to rest. Hearing the door
bolted and finding himself sordid, heturned around in a fit of ungovernable passion,

(01:13:15):
seized his wife by the upper partof her arm and dragged her by
force into their bedroom. Missus Rathbonewas heard appealing to her husband to let
her live. Then shots were heard, succeeded by silence. On the door
being burst open, Missus Rathbone wasdiscovered lying on the bed, covered with
blood. She merely said to hersister, he has killed us both at

(01:13:38):
last, and then expired without pain. In less than five minutes. She
had received two pistol shots in thebreast, but the fatal wound was inflicted
by the blade of a dagger,which had pierced her heart. The colonel
was lying on the floor and remainedfor some time conscious, though wounded five

(01:13:59):
times by the deathagger, one cutreaching his lung. He asked for Brandy,
saying he was much hurt, butdid not appear to know who had
hurt him. He said, whocould have done this? I don't think
I have any enemies. He thenasked where he was, but did not
seem to remember that he was evenin Hanover. When he was taken to

(01:14:19):
the hospital for the first two nights, he asked piteously for his wife.
Subsequently, he remembered what he haddone and said he had a great provocation.
He had got up, he said, and to his great surprise,
found all the children dressed, evidentlywith the intention of leaving him. This
was a complete delusion. Everything indeedpoints to the conclusion that he was quite

(01:14:44):
responsible for his actions. Doctor Goutleyis convinced that his mind has been effected
since the death of President Lincoln,when he received a wound in the arm
from Booth's dagger, and he subsequentlyhad a severe attack of brain fever.
In case he should recover, hewill be defended by the ex Hanoverian minister
winthorst End, So that's incredibly sad. He stabbed himself in the chest five

(01:15:12):
times, but survived. The childrenwent back to New York to live with
Clara's brother, William Harris, whoraised them. The judge found him insane
and he spent the rest of hislife suffering terribly from extreme paranoia at an
asylum and held as Heim, Germany. He died there, aged seventy four,
in nineteen eleven, and was buriedbeside his wife in the Hanover City

(01:15:35):
Cemetery. In nineteen fifty two,the Hanover City Cemetery, where Clara and
Henry were buried, determined that theyhadn't had any visitors to their graves,
so they ducked them up and disposedof their bones. We speak more in
depth about the final resting place theparanormal activity around the Washington Home and the
curse of Clara's bloody dress she worethat Knight Lincoln was assassinated in the law.

(01:16:00):
A version of this story in episodetwenty six. Thank you so much
for joining us, and remember,if you're going through hell, keep going
choose by. If you have beenlooking for a podcast that pulls together stories
of the paranormal, supernatural, andhorror, Stories with Sapphire is the podcast

(01:16:26):
you've been looking for. Saphire explorestheme based episodes containing true stories from the
Philippines and across the globe. Heyeveryone, my name is Sapphire Sandalo.
I'm the host of Stories with Sapphire. Each episode contains real paranormal stories connected
by a theme, and I addmy insight and commentary as a practicing occultist

(01:16:46):
and paranormal investigator. You can findthe show on YouTube and anywhere you listen
to podcasts. This is a storyfrom a recent episode, Hope you enjoy
The Natural Exorcist, submitted by anonymous. Hi Sapphire. Because I was raised

(01:17:08):
Southern Baptist in Detroit, it wasn'teasy growing up seeing things or knowing things
that were considered to be evil.Or demonic in the black community during the
nineties. If the Bible says it'sbad or wrong, then you didn't ask
questions. This probably explains why Iprefer to remain anonymous. My core group

(01:17:28):
of friends were normal, and Ihad a secret group of friends that I
felt comfortable talking about these experiences with. This story is actually the last time
that we were all together. Ichanged their names, of course, and
referenced their religions on purpose. Iwas about fifteen and I was supposed to
go to a sleepover. I don'tremember if I was sick or busy,

(01:17:51):
but I just know I didn't go. A few days later, I found
out that they were playing with aOuiji board. I don't even like going
into a house when I know aWuigi board is on the property, so
I'm glad I didn't go. Sincethat sleepover, my friend Sam and I
started noticing her older sister, Cassidy, was acting strange. Cassidy was about

(01:18:15):
two years older and was honestly theideal sister. She was always helpful,
understanding, and just a genuinely goodexample of the perfect student child citizen.
As far as we could tell,she had begun acting against their Catholic faith
started rebelling. Something was off.Our other friends, Sasha, who was

(01:18:40):
Muslim, and Yoko, a Buddhist, noticed as well. When Cassidy became
more verbally abusive towards her parents andbegan drawing weird symbols on her arms.
We all started to think about thatsleepover I missed. Apparently, Cassidy was
the one that wanted to use theOuigi board. She told them that it

(01:19:00):
would be funny if they played it, and that it would be hilarious if
something happened. Sam remembered that Cassidywas openly antagonistic with the board, and
things seemed to be off since thatnight. In our minds, a possession
was the only explanation for the newCassidy. I actually recall a moment when

(01:19:20):
I had contact with the real Cassidyduring all of this, and she bluntly
told me that she was a prisonerin her own body. We were all
fifteen or sixteen, literally had noidea what we were doing. We should
have gone to an adult, butfor whatever reason, I felt that I

(01:19:41):
could do this, that we couldget rid of whatever was attached to Cassidy.
The plan was for all of usto find a place that we could
do this, get it over with, and pretend it never happened. Sam
said she'd find a place. Hermom was a real tour and she knew
of places that seemed to never Weall gathered things from our religious affiliations and

(01:20:03):
met up at the abandoned home.Sasha brought incense and oils, Yoko brought
talismans and charms. I brought saltsand sage sticks. Cassidy even helped,
oddly enough, by providing tiki torchsticks. The house Sam found had a
small pool space in the back.As the brains of this I was literally

(01:20:25):
playing it by ear, adjusting towhatever we had to make the best of
what I could. I told Cassidyto stand in the middle of the empty
pool, which she mindlessly did.We tied the sage sticks to the tiki
torches and jabbed them into the groundat each corner of the pool. Sam
was able to get enough water tofill the pool so that it was maybe

(01:20:45):
ankle deep. Nothing happened. Wecircled the pool with oil, connecting torch
to torch. Nothing happened. Weplaced the talismans and charms around the pool
and on ourselves for protection. Nothinghappened. We lit the sage sticks,
nothing happened. Finally, we slowlypoured the salt on top of the oil

(01:21:11):
line. When the line was complete, Cassidy's face became distorted and her eyes
were black. Loudly, I saidto my friends, I don't give a
damn who you pray to. Justpray the strongest prayer of protection you know,
and don't stop with fear in ourvoices. We loudly spoke the prayers
we knew. Cassidy looked visibly agitated. When we collectively said amen, it

(01:21:39):
was at the top of our voices, and Cassidy's body went limp. She
fell into the water, and Istarted freaking out. Where she previously stood
was a black, shadowy figure withreddish eyes glaring at me. It wasn't
paying attention to anyone else, wasstaring directly at me, as though my

(01:22:03):
existence was an insult. Finally Isnapped out of it. I screamed for
Cassidy, get the hell out ofthe water and run. That's exactly what
we all did. We took off. When we were back at Sam's house,
no one said a word. Wewere still shaken. Yoko was the

(01:22:24):
first to leave, then Sasha.I gave the sisters a small hug and
walked out the house, taking thequick root home. For some reason,
I felt that I'd be safer inmy own home. I haven't seen any
of them since that night. Aboutfive years later, I was talking to

(01:22:44):
the pastor about everything. I wastelling him that I felt that I was
cursed and that I needed to figureout how to get rid of this.
He said something that actually made mecry, and I'm crying now as I
think back on it. God doesn'tgive curses, he gives gifts. You
didn't seek this, but it's beenthere since birth, which is what makes

(01:23:08):
this a gift. As for yourso called exorcism, you did horribly well
at that. He actually laughed.You got it out great. Why didn't
you tell the demon where to go? I didn't think about that. I
just wanted to help my friend,and this is why you guys should have

(01:23:30):
gone to an adult. I felta little better, but what he said
next was what really hit hard.For someone that had never done this,
You really seemed to have a goodidea of what to do, though you
never sought this information out right,I shook my head. Is anyone else
in your family like this. Well, my grandmother who died when I was

(01:23:55):
sixteen, she was like this.Her mother too, and my knowledge my
great grandmother, but she died beforeI was born. I think you're experiencing
genetic memory. Roughly speaking, thisis something that happens when you seem to
have knowledge of something but you're notsure how you know it. I think
God is allowing your great grandmother topositively impact your gift. I moved away

(01:24:23):
from Detroit a few years later.I still have experiences where I seem to
know about various paranormal or spiritual thingswith no idea of how I know it.
I've even heard my grandmother's voice guidingme through a few of them.
I'm interested to see what you makeof this, or if you have had
a similar experience, maybe not theexorcism, but with genetic memory. Be

(01:24:45):
blessed. Thank you so much forsending in your story. I found this
so fascinating, so I know thatpeople will probably disagree with me on this,
but I sort of liken exorcism tofirefighting. If there's a fire,

(01:25:05):
you'd want to call a professional becausethey have the tools, the physical strength,
the knowledge, and experience to putit out, but it is possible
a regular person could put one outas well. It's just way safer and
quicker if a professional does it.So my theory is that you were dealing

(01:25:26):
with a very small fire, whichmakes sense since Luigi boards tend to attract
these lowly trickster types and genetic memoryis absolutely a thing. All the o
sites, which are the things thatbecome eggs that a woman will produce in
her life, are created when sheis a four month old fetus in the

(01:25:46):
womb, which means that part ofus existed inside of our maternal grandmothers,
so parts of her life are energeticallyimprinted on us before we even exist.
So yes, I absolutely do believethat it is your great grandmother guiding you
through these moments and helping you staysafe. And there you have it,

(01:26:19):
Listeners, a fantastic list to kickoff your new year, New Binch listening.
Thanks for tuning in, and besure to follow all of the podcasts
you enjoyed so you will never missan episode. Absolutely remember to follow them
on social media as well. Wehope you've enjoyed part one of this collab

(01:26:40):
episode. Make sure to stay tunedfor a whole new lineup of podcasts tomorrow
that we know you'll enjoy until then, Happy Benjing,

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