PART TWO - New Year, New Binge - A Nefarious Nightmare - True Crime

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome back true crime devotees. We'recontinuing our journey into the darkest corners of
the podcast world, and we've gotan even more extensive lineup of spine chilling
and mind bending true crime podcasts.I'm Johanna, co host of Fresh Heel
podcast, and I'm joined by AmazingAllison, co host of Coffee and Cases

(00:28):
podcast. We're about to reveal somehidden gems in the true crime podcast Realm
Brace yourselves for an even deeper diveinto the mysteries that await in twenty twenty
four. Absolutely Allison, New Year, New Binch is still the theme and
we've got some fantastic recommendations for you. So grab your detective ats, lock

(00:50):
the doors and let's continue this truecrime podcast thriller. If you're looking for
a true crime combined with a touchof bandalust twist, The Travel and True
Crime explores crimes in different corners ofthe world, making each episode a captivating
journey. It was an uncomfortably hotand dry day in February of twenty sixteen

(01:14):
when two backpackers, one from Germanyand one from Brazil, struck up a
friendship and decided to head to MelbourneAustralia from Adelaide. They asked to ride
share with fifty nine year old RomanHinds. Little did they know they had
accepted a lift from a man whowas planning a vile and terrifying attack.
You're listening to Twisted Travel on TrueCrime and I'm your host, Sandy.

(01:38):
Let's hit the road. Australia hasbeen a country that people aspire to travel
to the appeal of the golden beaches, the surf culture, and the never
ending sunshine make it attractive to youngbackpackers, in particular as one of the
most diverse countries in the world,with over ten thousand gorgeous beaches, the
incredible beauty of the outback, hundredsof tropical islands, vimrant cities, friendly

(02:01):
people, and of course, wecan't forget the strange and wonderful creatures that
can't be found anywhere else in theworld. Australia is at the top of
many travelers bucket lists, including mine. Lena Rabente, a pretty petite blonde
from Germany, was twenty three yearsold when she decided she would visit the

(02:21):
country. She was in her gapyear. Gap years can look different for
everyone, but for those of uswho didn't have one or don't know what
they are. It's essentially a fullyear or even a semester of learning experiences.
Usually it's taken after high school andbefore taking a job or a post
secondary education. Many people consider itto be an opportunity to immerse themselves in

(02:44):
another culture or to challenge their comfortzones. It also gives them time to
consider what they really want to dowith their lives. Lena decided backpacking to
Australia was what she wanted to do. As part of her preparation, she
and her friends watched a backpacker horrorfilm called Wolf Creek. If you haven't
seen it, it's about three backpackerswho find themselves taken captive and then hunted

(03:06):
by a psychopath who chases them throughseveral mining sites south of Wolf Creek in
Australia. Lena laughed the movie off, thinking it was a work of pure
fiction, although it was loosely basedon true crime, including the murders of
backpackers by serial killer Ivan Malatt inthe nineteen nineties and Bradley Murdoch in two
thousand one. Little did she knowhow close her real life story would come

(03:30):
to the plot of the movie.Lena's backpacking plans brought her to Adelaide.
It was in this coastal city thatshe would meet a fellow backpacker named Beatrice.
Beatrice, a Brazilian beauty with long, dark hair and eyes, contrasted
beautifully with Lena's fair skin and blondehair. Beatrice was in Australia because she

(03:52):
had met a young man online.She'd spend a week with him before deciding
to take some short trips to seethe sights. The girls were both young
and adventurous, but it was alsotheir first time traveling alone, and because
they were new to Australia, theydecided to pair up. They had the
same destination in mind, the GreatOcean Road. This stretch of road is

(04:15):
one hundred and fifty miles long.It's one of the most beautiful scenic roads
in the world. The girls wouldget to see rugged cliffs, beautiful rock
formations, and stunning beaches along theway. The first part of their trip
would take them to Melbourne. Itwas an eight hour ride from Adelaide.
Neither of the girls had much money, so they thought the best thing they

(04:35):
could do was try to find aride with some one else. They used
an app called gum Tree. Ibelieve it's a lot like Craigslist in the
States. You can buy and sellthings, look for jobs, and in
Lena and Beatrice's case, ride shareor carpool. Beatrice posted an ad reading,
Hey, I'm a twenty three yearold Brazilian looking for someone to travel

(04:58):
from Adelaide to Melbourne from the ninthto the eleventh. I'm flexible, I
can change my plans a bit.Just let me know if you're interested.
Cheers. She had only two responsesto her ad. One she felt very
comfortable with, but unfortunately those plansfell through because the gentleman's car broke down
the night before they were planning toleave. The second response she received was

(05:21):
from a man named Roman. Shedecided to call him, even though she
felt like he was impatient when shewouldn't respond to him quickly. He would
send her messages like just reply,tell me if you want to go or
not, and words along the linesof don't be rude. Her options had
been limited, and because she wastraveling with Lena, she decided to call

(05:44):
Roman and catch that ride after all. The following Tuesday, the three of
them would meet to begin the roadtrip. When the girls first laid eyes
on roman Hinds, they were surprisedbecause he was older than they expected.
He was fifty nine and sported ahandlebar up ustash. The girls both had
passing thoughts that if they had beenalone, they probably wouldn't have taken a

(06:05):
ride with the tall, older man. What the girls didn't know was that
they were now inside the car ofa man who had no good intentions when
it came to the girls. Blissfullyunaware of what was going on inside Roman's
head, the girls rode along happily. Beatrice took a short video of the
three of them driving together. Shehas a huge smile on her face.

(06:27):
The windows are open and the freshsea breeze is blowing in their faces.
She's in the passenger seat next toRoman, and Lena is sitting in the
back seat with their bags. Romantold the girls a little bit about the
history of Australia the landscapes that theypassed, but mostly he was quiet.
He'd stop occasionally for the girls toget out and take pictures. In one

(06:49):
video, Beatrice is taking a selfie, turning herself in a circle so her
audience can see the beauty surrounding her. In the background, Roman's truck comes
into view and then just as quicklymoves off the screen. He worked to
make them feel comfortable with him,and, in all honesty, they were.
That is until two hours into thetrip, when he unexpectedly drove off

(07:13):
the main road into an area calledSalt Creek. Salt Creek is a remote
fishing destination that is part of theKorong National Park. He tells the girls
that most of the year that partof the beach they are driving on was
underwater and they were lucky to beable to see it. He reassured them
by saying it was a beautiful areaand suggested they should camp there for the

(07:34):
night. Once again, the girlsare feeling a bit strange about the circumstances
they are in, but they alsowant to enjoy the sights. Taking the
advice of a local seemed like anopportunity they shouldn't miss, they rationalized.
Roman got out of the truck andbegan pulling out camping equipment. The girls

(07:54):
had a brief discussion about whether Romanwas an okay guy. Beatrice reassured Lena,
saying that she thought he was weird, but that everything was okay.
Roman set up a tent for himselfand one for the girls. The campsite
was in a bit of a depression, where the beach ends and the sand
dunes began. The dunes were fairlysmall near the beach, but tall enough

(08:15):
that if you walked behind one,someone wouldn't see you from the other side.
They raised and lowered across the landscapelike waves. There were bushes and
scrub plants growing on the dunes,varying in height from a foot to large
enough to hide a car, butthey were sporadic. The isolated campsite was
sandwich between sand dunes and brush onone side and a large extended beach leading

(08:37):
to the water on the other.Once the tents and pop up table were
set up, Roman takes out abit of a meal and some wine.
Beatrice begins cooking some pasta. Lenais tired, so she decides to take
a nap in the back of Roman'struck while Beatrice decides to catch some sun.

(08:58):
She puts on her bathing suit andbegins to relax. After a while,
Roman tells her that he has seensome kangaroo prints and there must be
some nearby. He asked Beatrice ifshe wants to come with him to look
for them. Beatrice, not wantingto miss an opportunity, trustingly agrees,
and they began to walk further backfrom the beach into the undulating dunes.

(09:20):
They searched, but they didn't seeany kangaroos. Beatrice was becoming bored,
so she told Roman she wanted tohead back to camp. She turned to
leave when he grabbed her and pushedher to the ground. She was so
surprised by that attack that at firstshe thought he was joking. She turned
towards him and said, don't dothat. That's not funny. But that's
when she realized he was going tohurt her. He climbed on her back

(09:45):
and put his arm around her neck. Then he pulled out a knife,
stabbing it into the sand near herhead. Out came some ropes he had
concealed from her, and he beganmaking movements toward tying her up. In
an act of defiance, she grabbedthe ropes and threw them away from her.
He punched her in the face andtold her that if she made it

(10:05):
hard for him, he'd break herarm. He then grabbed her, pushing
her face into the ground and placinghimself over her, preventing her from getting
up. He tied her hands togetherbehind her back, and once he had
total dominance over her, he cuther bathing suit off. He punched her
and spit in her face, thenbegan kissing and licking her face in her

(10:26):
body. Beatrice was terrified and beganthinking she might be murdered. She asked
Roman if he was going to killher, but he didn't answer. At
that point, he shoved her bikinibottoms into her mouth in an attempt to
keep her quiet. She spit themout and tried to reason with him,
but that made him even more angry. He punched her over and over.

(10:50):
Beatrice was forced to imagine what itwould be like to die there. She
pictured her mother having to see herdead body. She realized it was unlikely
she'd survive or even be found.She pushed these negative thoughts aside and chose
to think about what she had todo to get out of the situation.
She thought she'd try to manipulate himby getting him closer to camp and closer

(11:11):
to Lena. She asked him whyit had to be this way, telling
him that if he wanted to dosomething with her. All he had to
do was ask things would be nicerif they could just go to one of
the tents. They could relax together. It didn't have to be so rough.
At this point, Roman turned herface down in the dirt and tied
her ankles. He lifted her upso she could walk with small steps,

(11:35):
but she couldn't run. He beganwalking her slowly back towards their campsite through
the dunes. When the tents cameinto sight, Roman began having second thoughts,
and he started to turn Beatrice awayfrom the tents. She knew she
only had one chance, so shescreamed at the top of her lungs for
Lena, hoping her screams would wakethe sleeping girl up. In response to

(11:58):
the Roman punched Beatrice again and climbedon top of her. Luckily, Lena
did hear the scream. She heardthe terror in Beatrice's voice and jumped out
of the car. She walked aroundthe front of the vehicle, listening for
a second scream, but heard nothing. It had been a miracle that she
heard the sound of Beatrice's scream overthe sound of the wind and waves in

(12:20):
the first place, but now shehad to figure out where Beatrice was.
As she wandered in the direction shethought the sound had come from, she
saw Roman leaning over Beatrice's naked body. She was shot by what she saw,
and her first emotion was anger.She yelled at him, shouting,
let her go, let her go. She couldn't believe what her eyes were

(12:43):
telling her. Lena grew more angryand wondered how the hell Roman could do
this to Beatrice. Lena kept yellingat Roman, telling him to get off
of Beatrice. He turned to faceLena. He tried to explain himself and
said, disgustingly, I just wantedto try her. Then he began to
chase Lena. Lena ran as quicklyas she could back towards the truck.

(13:07):
Beatrice was screaming after her, tellingher to run and be careful because she
thought Roman had an axe. Hewas holding something with a handle as he
chased Lena. Lena ran for herphone in the truck. She wanted to
call the police. As she openedthe door, Roman caught up to her.
She told him all she wanted washer bag. He yelled back at

(13:28):
her, yeah, get your fuckingbag. As she turned away from him
to reach inside. He hit heron the top of the head with a
hammer as hard as he could.Lena thought she was going to die.
It hurt so badly. She wasn'tsure what she'd been hit with because she
couldn't see. For a few secondsafter that first blow, she felt wobbly

(13:50):
on her feet, but she knewshe had to run. Roman chased her,
hitting her again and again and again. She ran as fast as she
could, feeling dead and dizzy,stumbling. He would hit her four more
times in the head, but shenever gave up. She kept running.
She was small but fast at sixfoot six inches and sixty one years old.

(14:15):
Roman was having a hard time catchingher on his feet, so he
retreated to his vehicle with the intentionof driving her down. I'm sorry I
have to leave you on a bitof a cliffhanger there, but I would
love for you to come and listento the rest of this episode on Twisted
Travel and True Crime. It's calledThe Salt Creek Attack. Roman Hinz,
Lena Rebente, and Beatrice. Pleasecome check it out and check the rest

(14:41):
of Twisted Travel and True Crime socialmedia on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok.
Thanks for listening. Excuse Me That'sIllegal is a true crime comedy podcast
that brings a lighthearted touch to someof the most outrageous and illegal acts.

(15:01):
It's the perfect blend of humor andgrime. Hey there, potential new listeners.
I'm Leroy, host of the hittrue crime podcast Excuse Me That's Illegal,
where I cover only the pettiest ofcriminals. I'm dropping new episodes every
ten days, and you can findExcuse Me That's Illegal anywhere you get your

(15:24):
favorite podcasts. I would love tohave you come join me. That is
enough self promotion over here. Nowlet's get into a story about an old
lady you do not want to messwith, and we are headed over to
Rochester for this one baby. Rochesteris the third most populous city in the
state of New York, beaten onlyby New York City in Buffalo. Some

(15:45):
notable people born in Rochester include acouple of old dogs in Robert Forrester and
John Lithgow, great actors, Sonot too shabby as far as that goes.
As for crime, is Rochester's safeplace to live? Let's check in
with our friends at neighborhood scout dotco to find out more. Rochester is

(16:06):
given US seven on their crime index, meaning it's only safer than seven percent
of the cities in the United States. Chances of becoming a victim of a
property crime in Rochester are one intwenty nine, while chances are becoming a
victim of a violent crime or onein one hundred and thirty two. Not
sure exactly what the intent of thecriminal in this story was, though,
because things just didn't play out theway he intended. With that being said,

(16:29):
let's join eighty two year old grandmotherWillie Murphy at her home. The
date is November twenty one, twentynineteen. It's a Thursday night, a
little before eleven pm, and Willie, well, she's winding down and getting
ready for bed. Eleven pm ona Thursday night and she's still up.
Was she a rockstar or something?Most old ladies are dozing off and they're
easy chairs by eight o'clock while watchingJeopardy. But Willy is definitely not like

(16:55):
most old ladies, perhaps unlike anyof them, as the cool kids would
say, She's built different. Beforewe get into the events that are about
to unfold, let's get some importantbackground on this little firecracker. Willy stands
at just five feet tall and onehundred and five pounds, but she is
full of energy and oozing charisma.She's also a bit of a local celebrity.

(17:18):
One year earlier, she was interviewedon The Today Show and ESPN also
did a feature on her. Thisis all due to a little hobby Willy
decided to pick up ten years ago, and that hobby was knitting. No,
just kidding. She actually got intopowerlifting. She originally tried it out
as a way to stay in shape, keep her independence and all that,
but turns out she was pretty darngood at it. It wasn't long before

(17:42):
she joined the WNPF, the WorldNational Powerlifting Federation, and she was smashing
state records in her age bracket.As you can imagine, there ain't too
many seniors you powerlift. They're mostlylifting pills and prescriptions from their many doctors'
visits. Getting up out of thatlazy boy and work in the remote is

(18:03):
likely how I'm going to exercise ifI ever hit eighty. Here's what WNPF
vice president Ron dimissus dim mess uhsomething like that. Whatever. Here's what
he had to say about Willie quote, I've had other seniors competing in their
low seventies or middle seventies. ButWillie's my first eighty year and older,

(18:25):
and as far as her personality,there's no one that can beat Willie.
End quote. They actually had tocreate an eighty and older bracket specifically for
Willie. Let's hear what she hasto say about all this weightlifting Willie quote.
Everybody's not able to powerlift a lotof older people. They're in the
swimming, yoga, tai chi,various other things. But I guess I'm

(18:48):
just unusual because I'm in the naturalpower lifting end quote. Willie's old school.
She doesn't have a trainer or anyof that shit. She doesn't really
diet. She's not down in proteinshakes and bars and calorie counting. She
still enjoys pizza in the occasional rumwith cranberry juice delicious. She works out

(19:10):
at her local ymcajym, a fewdays a week. She figured things out
by just kind of watching the menlifting weights, and she picked up pointers
here and there. It's got anotherweightlifting Willie quote about how she got started.
I was surprised that people were thinkingthat it was strange to me to
be in the gym with mostly menat that particular time. But I kept

(19:30):
getting stronger and stronger. And Idon't wear any belts, I don't use
chalk, and I don't use theammonia like other people when they compete in
a competition. It just happened.I guess I'm just one of those things
that nature has taken good care ofme. End quote. I'm not going
to pretend I know much about weightlifting, but Willy is impressive. Sure,
she's the only one participating at meatsin her category right now, but I

(19:53):
mean, at eighty two, shecan do one hand to push ups,
and she can deadlift two hundred andtwenty five pounds repeated like a boss.
Like I said, She's only onehundred and five pounds, so I'd say
that's pretty great. In twenty fourteen, Willie was named w NPF Powerlifter of
the Year, a very prestigious honor. She also held a government job for

(20:15):
forty years. She was a socialworker, and now she volunteers at her
local health center helping elderly people,probably most of them younger than her,
do basic exercises. Willy's an extremelyaccomplished woman, a good person and tough
as they come. Okay, Ithink we've got a pretty good handle on
Old Willy here and what she's allabout. So let's get back to her

(20:36):
home. On that cold November night, just before eleven PM, as she
gets ready for bed, Willy hearssome thumping at her front door. She
walks over and hollers who is itto the person on the other side,
She ain't, no fool, She'snot opening the door this time of night
until she gets some details. There'sa man yelling for her to let him
in. He claims he's been shotand he needs an ambulance. Willie runs

(21:00):
over to the telephone and dials nineone one, and it's at this moment
she hears another loud bang. Ah. Hell no, the man busted down
her door and now it's just OldWilly face to face with this strange man
in her home. And guess what. He hasn't been shot. It was
all a ruse. That's when thepruney powerlifter springs into action. She grabs

(21:22):
a small table close by and smack. You know what. Let's hear how
it all went down, according toWillie in her animated retelling of events.
In an interview with ABC thirteen News, weightlifting Willie quote. I'm alone and
I'm old, but guess what,I am tough. She says that she
flexes her muscles. And you wantto know what happened? He picked the

(21:44):
wrong house to break into. Itook that table and I got to working
on him, and guess what.The table broke and it had middle legs
and I'm jugging them and jugging themand jugging them. And when he's down,
I'm jumping on him. Ah ahah. And the telephone is still
on for nine to one one,and I'm running into the kitchen and there's

(22:07):
a bottle of baby shampoo on thetable. I grab the shampoo and guess
what, He's still on the groundand I'm pouring it all on his face,
the whole thing. And he's tryingto get up, and he's pulling,
and I got the broom and nowhe's pulling the broom and I'm hitting
him. I'm hitting him with thebroom. I'm hitting him, and guess

(22:29):
what, he wants to get theheck out of there, and I'm trying
to help him get out of thehouse, but he's too heavy. I
can't move him. He's dead weight. And at that time, the police
arrive on my porch. End quote. I love Willie. She's hilarious as
she's describing the scene. She's wearinga red bandana do rag kind of thing

(22:51):
and a World National Powerlifting Federation muscleshirt. And I gotta say it,
she looks great for eighty two.She has a lot of baggage under her
eyes, which is to be expected. But other than that, smooth skin,
very toned, muscular biceps. Notan ounce of flab on those bad
boys, No bingo wings on heras I like to call them, you
know, that flabby skin hanging belowthe arms. Yet her body's holding up

(23:15):
real nice. Sorry it didn't meanto sound like a pervert there, but
it's the truth. And she's verysharp, still got her wits about her.
There was a lot going on inher retelling of events there. I
imagine this man, we'd never findout his name, but he's twenty nine
years old and he busts into thiseighty two year old woman's home. She's
only five feet tall, a littleover one hundred pounds, soaking wet.

(23:37):
She's probably in a robe with curlersin her hair. He's likely thinking,
damn, I couldn't have picked aneasier victim if I tried, and boy
was he wrong. She beat thebrakes off him. Sounded like a wrestling
match. He's getting smashed with tables, chairs, jabbed with brooms, baby
shamboo smeared in his eyes. She'sjumping on him. Man, I'd buy

(24:00):
that fight on pay per view anda heartbeat. I'd pay fifty bucks right
now for sure. I like howat the end of it, she was
even trying to help the guy out, feeling sorry for him, getting the
heck out of there before the policeshowed up. Thankfully, police were pretty
cool about the whole situation once theyarrived. They said the man was extremely
intoxicated and had no clue what wasgoing on. I don't doubt the man

(24:22):
was inebriated, but it makes youwonder how much of his cluelessness was due
to the booze and how much wasdue to the absolute beat down Willy just
unleashed upon him. I'm not surewhat the man's intentions were, but Willy,
being the caring soul she is,asked police not to press charges.
She also made sure that the guyreceived proper medical treatment. She knew she
messed him up pretty good after theintruder was taken to the hospital. Police

(24:47):
stuck around for a while, hangingout on Willy's front porch, partly to
make sure she was okay, butalso so they could take selfies with her.
After all, she's a local legend. So there you have it,
a happy end. The intruder learneda hard lesson strange that he didn't get
arrested, but I suppose the humiliationof getting ruffed up by an eighty two
year old, one hundred and fivepound granny was punishment enough. At least

(25:11):
he didn't have to go to jail, and Willie didn't seem rattled by the
situation at all. If anything,she just has another cool story to tell
her pals over at the YMCA.All right, that'll do it for the
tale of the body building badass WillieMurphy. I hope you enjoyed it even
half as much as I did.And afarious Nightmare lives up to its name.

(25:36):
It's a deep dive into the darkestrealms of crime, focusing awareness mainly
on lesser known crimes and crimes againstthose who are specially vulnerable. It will
leave you questioning the very nature ofhumanity. Hi, everyone, my name
is Courtney and I am one halfof a true crime podcast called A Nefarious
Nightmare. My co host is alsomy best friend, Amanda Cronin. I've

(25:59):
known her for over ten years nowand we've decided one day to start a
podcast. And here we are toexplain. Our podcast considers victims and survivors
bees because bees are strong, resilient, yet vulnerable, and as we all
know, the world can't survive andthrive without bees. We all know this,
right, I hope. So typicallywe like to dive into the psychology

(26:22):
behind the crime and delve deep intothings such as narcissism and sociopathy. Amanda
and I are versed in statistics behindsexual assault based off of my background and
working with lawyers to prevent sex abuseand child serving organizations. The majority of
our episodes discuss sexual abuse or sexualassault, and a lot of our episodes

(26:44):
you hear straight from the survivor themselves. Every now and then, we will
delve into a case that is alittle more well known, either because it's
relevant to the movement in some wayor just that it piqued our interest,
such as the case that we bringyou today about Tamla Horsford. Here's a
small preview of that episode titled Tequilaand a Prayer What Really Happened to Tamla

(27:06):
Horsford. We hope you enjoy it. We want to make you all aware
that, as with every case wecover, all parties are presumed innocent until
proven guilty by law. We shouldn'thave to give that disclaimer, but there
it is. Take that however youmay and deduce from this case what you
will. We have our own mindsmade up, and I think after listening

(27:29):
to this podcast as a whole,you can probably guess what that is.
But please draw your own conclusions.Always keep the victim and their family in
your mind when doing so. ForsythCounty, Georgia, has a major history
of extreme racism starting around nineteen twelve. In nineteen ten, there are just
over ten thousand white and one thousandblack people residing in Forsyth County. There

(27:56):
are several examples of the history ofsevere racism which you will come across in
a quick Google search, but onemajor example is that on September ninth,
nineteen twelve, a white eighteen yearold girl named may Crow was found brutally
raped and murdered in a wooded area. The only item that was found by
police was a small pocket mirror nearby, and it was assumed to have belonged

(28:21):
to a sixteen year old boy bythe name of Ernest Knox. Shortly after,
he and a few friends were arrested, despite there'd be a no link
to the crime. One of hisfriends was a twenty four year old by
the name of Rob Edwards. Heis important, so remember his name.
They did live close by, andthey were all black, so it's been

(28:44):
alleged that they were targeted due tothose facts. False confessions have been a
topic brought up in many true crimeshows and podcasts, and it's been believed
that Ernest gave a false confession becausehe was taunted and threatened by the lead
deputy via mack lynching. All ofthem were arrested and then held at the

(29:07):
county jail. There was quite abit of public outrage. An all white
mob then busted in and shot Rob, murdering him, and then they dragged
him through the streets right up tothe entrance of city Hall, where he
was then hanged publicly from a telephonepole as if to send some message.
The mob then went door to doordemanding that all black residents leave the county

(29:29):
within twenty four hours, and thenthey'd ransacked their homes, killed their livestock,
and destroyed everything that they owned.This county stayed primarily white until nineteen
eighty seven, when this quote unquoteracial cleansing was highly publicized. Activists and
allies protested to remind the county ofthe heavily racist past, while several white

(29:49):
residents retaliated with a so called peacefulprotest and response, holding signs saying things
such as keep Forceth white and World'sand hated the black residence. The white
residents also threw rocks and other heavyitems at them. So today the county
has a population of more than twohundred and forty four thousand, and while

(30:11):
more than one hundred and eighty twothousand are white, only ninety five hundred
or four percent are black. Soit's changed, but not by much as
a whole. This was known asquote racial cleansing that drove eleven hundred black
residents out of Forsyth County end quote. According to one of our sources,

(30:33):
all of this to say, essentially, it hasn't gotten better. We as
well as many others agree that thisis hugely relevant to the entire story,
So it's important to be aware thatwhile we do not know whether anything had
happened to Tamwa was racially motivated ornot, we do know that there are

(30:56):
racist undertones that do take place inthe county altogether as well as in this
case, which includes some insensitive andtone deaf things that were said after she
had passed. Some will argue thatbecause there's a minority that's also highly suspicious
in this case, that this can'tbe a racism issue. I'm here to

(31:18):
tell you that this is not atall true. Please remove that from your
mind moving forward when listening to thisepisode. If you're looking at this entire
story through that lens, like,you know, saying, oh, they
were Latinos, so they couldn't havebeen racist, then your perception of the
whole case is skewed and you probablyaren't paying much attention to the bigger picture,
which is a black woman died undermysterious circumstances and the entire case as

(31:42):
a clusterfuck from the moment she wasseen. Tamla Horsford, also referred to
as tam was born October tenth,nineteen seventy eight in Saint Vincent and the
Grenadines in the Caribbean. She livedthere until she was twelve, when she
and her family moved to the Bronxin New York. When she was older,

(32:02):
she moved to Florida, where shemet her husband, Leander also known
as Lee, who had a daughterfrom a previous relationship, and they went
on to have five sons together.By all accounts, tam was close with
Lee's daughter and made her feel includedand accepted her as though she was her
own. When Tamla passed away,her youngest son was only four years old.

(32:27):
Tam had a really close friend bythe name of Michelle Graves, who
we will bring up later again verybriefly, but she is a huge reason
why this case has gotten a lotof attention. Tamla was known to be
a compassionate and selfless person. Shewas the life of the party. She
liked to laugh, to dance,to have fun. Leander had to relocate

(32:49):
for work, so the Horse Frontspicked up and moved to Georgia five and
a half years prior to this wholeincident. Tam quickly made friends because she's
warm, outgoing, charismatic and reallyhad this motherly instinct to her. She
was heavily involved in her children's extracurriculars. Basically, she was the kind of
mom who was there at the footballgames cheering her kids on, did the

(33:09):
whole pta thing, and also likedto have fun with the adults when the
kids went to bed, which thatis absolutely fine. Side note, we
as parents, we deserve some timeto unwind and let loose too, so
please don't judge. I mean,parenting isn't our entire personality or anything.
Yeah, that's part of it,but I mean sometimes we just want to

(33:30):
chill. Man. Anyway, herdaughter was pregnant and she was just thrilled
about becoming a grandma. She wassimply a free spirit, but also really
cared a lot about her kids.She also really enjoyed making friends. It
was one of those situations where peoplecould have likely taken advantage of her kindness.
There was a birthday party being celebratedwhich was held by the homeowner,

(33:53):
Jean Myers, who was turning fortysix, and it was planned and organized
by Stacy Smith, a friend ofTamilus tam Nujean from a youth football game
held that August in which both oftheir sons were in attendance. The party
was supposed to start at seven pointthirty, but Tamla was busy cooking and

(34:13):
feeding her family prior to even comingto the sleepover. Tam opened up to
her husband Lee and said she didn'tfeel right about going, but didn't want
to be rude or inconsiderate, soshe went anyways, arriving closer to nine
pm. This was in coming Georgia, which is located in the center of

(34:34):
Forsyth County, about thirty nine milesnortheast from downtown Atlanta, which is one
reason we brought up the horrific backgroundon Forsyth in the beginning. Now it
is important to bring up here thatJean was also dating a pre trial probation
officer by the name of Jose Barrerawho worked for the Forcyth County Sheriff's Department.

(34:57):
Now keep this in mind because thisdoes come to play later. But
also it's mighty weird that just aboutevery case we cover and which the result
wasn't true justice has had some heavylink to law enforcement. You know,
the good old boys club if youwill imagine that. But anyway, tam
hung out with either Stacy or Jeanthe week previous for another event, so

(35:22):
Tam felt comfortable enough and came tothe birthday sleepover. They didn't allow men
to be there, but you know, men ended up sticking around. As
you're gonna find out, Tam showedup at this party and this super adorable
white onesie with gray paw prints allover it. She had showed up with
a big, nice bottle of tequilaas a gift for Jean. It's been

(35:45):
said that Jean did not appreciate this, which I get it. If you
don't drink tequila. You don't drinktequila, do you. But the way
she accepted her gift wasn't with athank you or really any kindness. It
was more as if someone removed adirty diaper and gave it to her.
She was extremely stuck up about itand said something to the effect of quote,

(36:09):
I don't drink tequila. I don'tlike this, and even you drink
it. Stuff like that. Allright, if you haven't watched that show
on Netflix called The Watcher, I'mabout to give a slight spoiler alert,
so you might want to skip aheadabout ten seconds, but to give it
an example of how Jean accepted thetequila. You know, Jennifer Coolidge's character

(36:32):
Karen gave the exact same vibe.I'm imagining when her two neighbors ended up
showing up with a pie and somebrownies in the last episode. I'd imagine
that Jean acted the same way.So after this not so nice exchange,
there were points where they all hadfun ate Gumbo, watched the LSU game,

(36:52):
and also played cards against Humanity.At one point, Jose and another
man at this quote unquot no boysallowed adult white woman sleepover, did come
through for a bite, to eatsome of the party food and maybe catch
glimpses of the game. It wasbrought up that Jose kept mentioning things like

(37:13):
ugh, women, as if hewas a chauvinist. I don't know exactly
how relevant to the case that mightbe, but maybe it is all right.
Sorry guys. Another side note,I do remember listening to a podcast
back in twenty twenty where they werepointing out the picture of all the ladies
together, and it was noted thatshe absolutely was the light in that darkness.

(37:34):
You know, when you're in aroom full of stuck up nemen Marcus
customers judging you because you aren't wearingChanel, but everyone else outside of Nemen
Marcus wants to hang out with youbecause you're fucking awesome and hilarious and beautiful.
Sorry, I had a flashback,but it was quite like this.
Everyone else seemed you know, roboticand Stepford wife like you know, basic,

(37:58):
as if they were taller' rating morethan having a good time. And
I mean, I don't know ifthat's true, but I definitely saw it
and agreed and absolutely sympathized with Tamin that moment. Yes, Tam seemed
to have felt a little left outfrom what we can see. What's even
shittier is that people cracked a fewjokes, such as saying that she was

(38:21):
a female Bob Marley because she's fromthe Caribbean. But she stayed connected with
Bridget whom is. You can findthe rest of this episode in season three,
episode fourteen of a Nefarious Nightmare.If you've gained some insight or really
just enjoyed this episode, we haveover one hundred and twenty episodes for you
to binge. That's six full seasonsof content for your New Year, New

(38:44):
Binge. You can find a NefariousNightmare anywhere you listen to this podcast,
Thank you so much for featuring uson your platform. And like we tell
everybody listening, be vigilant for whenyou mess with the bees, you get
the Hive. Episodes every Tuesday,a midnight centeals. For those who enjoy

(39:08):
a classic mystery with a side ofinvestigative prowess, The Trail Went Cold as
a must listen. It's like beingtransported into a detective's office, with each
episode dedicated to solving unsolved cases.Hello everyone, this is Robin Warder,
host of the true crime podcast TheTrail Went Cold. In case you've never

(39:31):
heard of my show, we releaseweekly episodes which each cover a different cold
case or unsolved mystery. It's incredibleto think that at the time of this
recording, The Trail Went Cold isonly a few months shy of its eight
year anniversary as a podcast, andduring that time period we have released over
three hundred and fifty episodes in overthirty minisodes. Even though we focus exclusively

(39:54):
on unsolved cases, we always loveit when some of them actually achieve a
result, and to our delight,quite a few cold cases we have featured
on a podcast have wound up beingsolved. These past eight years. In
fact, we recently completed our fourthspecial Update episode, which chronicled all the
cases we covered which either wound upbeing solved or had major developments in twenty

(40:17):
twenty three. And of course,when we originally started The Trail Went Cold,
we never envisioned that there would beso many updates to our featured cases
that we'd wind up having enough materialfor a total of four update episodes,
But the way things have been goingthese past few years, I'm sure we'll
still have many more to come.Anyway, For the special Collaboration episode,

(40:39):
I'm going to talk about one ofour most unusual updates, which also happened
to be connected to one of themore unique missing persons cases we've ever covered.
Like many true crime podcasts, TheTrail Went Cold sometimes receives requests from
the loved ones of missing and murderedvictims to cover their stories on our show.

(40:59):
Over three years ago, I receivedone of these requests from a woman
named Mindy Wilson. But what stoodout is that she wanted us to cover
the unsolved disappearance of her grandmother,who went missing all the way back in
nineteen forty five. The victim inquestion was Mary Jane Van Gilder, who
was thirty four years old when shewas last confirmed to be alive, and

(41:19):
even though Mindy had not yet beenborn and never got to meet her grandmother,
she still wanted to find out whathappened to her. And what made
this situation even more unique is thatMindy actually put me in touch with a
law enforcement officer, Detective Adam Turnerof the Shelby Police Department, who was
actively investigating this case even though itwas seventy five years old. So in

(41:40):
September of twenty twenty, The TrailWent Cold dropped episode number one ninety,
which covered the unsolved disappearance of MaryJane van Gilder. Of course, this
was not a missing person's case witha lot of evidence to work with,
and you could not pinpoint in exacttime or place when Mary Jane went missing.
Mary Jane was the mother of fivechildren who lived in Marion County,

(42:02):
West Virginia, but her marriage wasan abusive and unhappy one, so in
nineteen forty four, she decided tomove away and relocate to Ohio and got
a job at the Shelby Army AirForce Depot near the town of Shelby.
She remained in the area for ayear, but in March of nineteen forty
five, Mary Jane quit her jobat the depot and just seemed to drop

(42:23):
out of sight as she cut offall communication with her family. Now from
here on out, I'm actually goingto be talking about an entirely different case.
So if you want to learn moreabout Mary Jane van Gilder's story,
I suggest you go back and listento Trail Went Cold, episode number one
ninety one. Lead that Detective AdamTurner wanted to investigate was an unidentified decedent

(42:46):
whose skeleter remains were found in adrainage ditch in Preble County, Ohio on
May the twenty fifth, nineteen sixtyeight. The original coroner have been unable
to determine the victim's exact cause ofdeath, but it was theorized that they
might have been buried in a shallowgrave somewhere before heavy rain and flooding hit
the area and caused the remains tobe unearthed. The coroner believed that the

(43:09):
remains belonged to a female who wasbetween thirty and fifty years old and may
have been pregnant at some point inher life. Since she could not be
identified, she became known as thePrebble County Jane Doe as well as the
nickname Prebble County Penny, and wasburied at Mount Hill Cemetery in the town
of Eton. Detective Turner wanted toinvestigate the possibility that Prebble County Penny was

(43:32):
Mary Jane dan Gilder, so heranged to have her exhumed in August of
twenty nineteen. Turner held a mentalitythat even if this victim wasn't Mary Jane,
she could still be identified and thismight help provide answers for another family
somewhere well. That turned out tobe exactly what happened, but it also

(43:52):
led to the uncovering of an allnew rabbit hole. After the Preble County
Jane Doe was exhumed, investigators wereon abe to construct a full DNA profile
for her, since her bones haddegraded so much over the past five decades.
But surprisingly, the examination turned upthe presence of male DNA on the
remains, though it was possible thatit could have been left there by a

(44:14):
male contributor or wound up on theremains accidentally due to contamination. It would
take about three years in order toconstruct a full DNA profile for this victim,
and it came about after the ShelbyPolice Department partnered within an organization called
Moxie Forensic Investigations, who specialized inidentifying unknown decedents. The remains were subsequently

(44:37):
sent to inter Mountain Forensics, anonprofit forensic DNA testing laboratory with specialized procedures
for extracting DNA from human bones,even older ones which were heavily degraded.
This procedure had cost five thousand dollars, but Criminal Coffee Company, a business
run by Stephanie Harlowe and Derek Lavassor, co host of the Crime Weekly podcast,

(45:00):
generously donated the full funding and inthe end, a DNA profile was
finally constructed for the Preble County JaneDoe. After the DNA was entered into
ged match, it would eventually belinked to biological relatives of the victim.
While this past November, the ShelbyPolice Department held a press conference in which

(45:20):
Detective Turner announced that the decedent hadfinally been identified, but there was a
surprising twist that male DNA found onthe remains was not caused by contamination.
The Preble County Jane Doe was actuallya John Doe and his name was Albert
alan Frost. Yes, it soundslike the original coroner mistakenly believed that Albert

(45:43):
was female because he had a muchsmaller stature than usual for a male.
He was also quite wrong about thevictim once having been pregnant, but you
have to remember that we are talkingabout nineteen sixty eight forensics here. The
identification was made possible when Tina Barrett, the granddaughter of one of Albert's sisters,
provided a sample of her DNA fora comparison to the remains, and

(46:06):
a genetic match was made. Itturned out that Albert Alan Frost had originally
been born in Hamilton, Ohio,on January twenty fifth, nineteen thirty five,
and was the youngest of eight siblings. He was a military veteran who
served in the United States Army,but he was also a very shy individual
who was not particularly talkative. Inretrospect, his grandniece Tina suspects that Albert

(46:30):
may have been on the autism spectrum, but nobody would have even known what
that was back then. He prettymuch lived a transient lifestyle and did not
seem to have a permanent home,and he also had a history of brushes
with the law. Since Albert woulddrift in and out of his family's lives
and disappear for long periods of timewithout settling down, this probably explains why

(46:52):
he was never officially reported missing asfar as his surviving relatives remember. He
was last confirmed to be alive sometime time in nineteen sixty three or nineteen
sixty four, but then the familyseemed to lose track of Albert and rarely
spoke about him over the next severaldecades. Albert had one marriage, which
only lasted fourteen months before the divorced, and he is believed to have had

(47:15):
a daughter at one point who wasadopted in nineteen sixty three and had her
name legally changed. Detective Turner wasable to locate this woman and speak to
her, and, needless to say, she was quite overwhelmed by the whole
situation. There is no official recordof Albert's death anywhere, but while there
were no obvious signs of trauma onhis remains to indicate foul play, there

(47:37):
is definitely good reason to suspect hemay have been murdered. After all,
if the theory about the flooding havingunearthed Albert's remains from a shallow grave is
correct, then someone had to buryhim there. While two of Albert's closest
surviving relatives are as nieces Denise Frostand Diana Frost Russell, the surviving daughter's

(48:00):
of one of Albert's brothers, GeorgeFrost, they both claimed that when they
were children, there was always arumor circulated among the family that Albert had
been murdered before his body was rolledup in a piece of carpet and left
on someone's porch. Unfortunately, sinceboth of Albert's parents and all of his
siblings, including George, have sincepassed away, and his surviving relatives were

(48:22):
children at the time he went missing, no one has been able to provide
some additional context about this rumor.But the story gets even stranger, and
here's where the term rabbit hole entersthe equation. It turns out that one
of Albert's sisters, Clara Froskopowski,also vanished without a trace, sometime between
nineteen fifty and nineteen fifty two,when she would have been in her early

(48:45):
twenties and Of course, it doesnot appear she was ever found, and
there's no record of her ever havingbeen reported missing. At one point,
George apparently told his daughters that hismother had sold Clara to a German Man.
Since clara husband, Chester Koprowski,married her when she was still a
teenager, I get the impression thathe's the German Man George was referring to,

(49:07):
But this remark about her being soldto him is all sorts of creepy.
Well, Clara and Chester had ason and a daughter together, and
Chester got remarried to another woman notlong after Clara disappeared. It's been reported
that Chester was abusive towards Clara duringthe marriage, so this might be the
reason she suddenly went missing, Butboth Chester and their two children are now

(49:31):
deceased, so we have no realevidence to work with. In a crazy
coincidence, it turns out that MaryJane van Gilder had a sister named Rose,
who also seemed to disappear sometime duringthe nineteen forties, but the details
are too vague to know what actuallyhappened to her. But what are the
odds that the investigation into the disappearanceof the Van Gilder sisters would lead to

(49:54):
the uncovering of another completely unrelated casein which two siblings from the the same
family went missing at different times.So, yes, there are so many
answered questions about what actually happened toAlbert and Clara. After Albert's death certificate
is completed, a new investigation willbe launched in order to determine if he

(50:15):
was the victim of a homicide,and hopefully Clara's disappearance might get some attention
as well. But when I firstlearned about the Mary Jane van Gilder case
back in twenty twenty, I didnot expect it to uncover all these additional
mysteries within a mystery. But DetectiveAdam Turner, who is one of the
most dedicated law enforcement officers I haveever seen, he was spot on when

(50:38):
he provided his reasoning for exooming thePreble County Jane doe four years ago.
It may not have led to aresolution in Mary Jane's case, but it
did provide some answers to the familyof Albert Alan Frost, a victim who
otherwise would have been completely lost tohistory. As a side note, when
Detective Turner spoke at the press conference, about albert Its identification. He actually

(51:00):
gave a shout out to the TrailWent Cold, as well as the other
podcasts and YouTube shows who put thisstory into the spotlight. It was a
pretty cool moment since that was thefirst time our podcast had ever been mentioned
at a police press conference. Butadmittedly, I don't think any of the
true crime creators who took on theVan Gilder case expected things to lead in

(51:21):
this direction. I know that truecrime podcasters sometimes get criticized if they decide
to cover older cold cases from severaldecades ago, as some people believe it's
a waste of time and there's nochance of these cases being solved. And
I know that when law enforcement officerslike Adam Turner take on these cases,
they sometimes face criticism as well.However, stories like this only demonstrate that

(51:45):
it's all worthwhile. I also wantedto mention that, in addition to this
case, twenty twenty three saw theresolution of another ancient unsolved mystery which was
once covered on the Trail Went Cold, the abduction and disappear and of two
year old Mary Agnes Morony, whichtook place all the way back in nineteen
thirty. So yeah, It's nevertoo late to solve a cold case anyway.

(52:09):
Thanks so much for listening, andthanks to Joanna and Allison for organizing
this collaboration episode. If you wantto hear my episode about Mary, Jane
ben Gilder, or any other episodesfor that matter, my podcast has got
a huge backlog of episodes you canbinge through, so be sure to check
out my website at Trailwentcold dot comor look for the Trail Went Cold wherever

(52:31):
you listen to your podcasts. Everyonehave yourself a happy new Year, and
here's hoping that a lot more coldcases get solved in twenty twenty four.
Next is Coffee and Cases with myco host for this collaboration, Ellison.
Imagine sipping your favorite brew while unravelingthe details behind lesser known unsolved cases.

(52:57):
This podcast combines the warmth few morningcoffee with the chill of true crime.
The new Year is a time whenmost are making plans to attend a party
with family or friends to welcome inthe new year. The idea of a
new year holds promise of a changefor the better. It's why we make
New Year's resolutions, their promises toourselves for a future better than our past,

(53:24):
a vocalized yearning of something we desperatelywant for the Willhoit family. Like
sister Michelle Osborne, with whom Ihad the pleasure of speaking for our coverage
of this case, their resolution fortwenty twenty four hasn't changed since twenty twenty
three. To find Lauren will Hoit. Lauren, the baby of the family,

(53:50):
her parents, and her sister andbrother eight and ten years her elder,
respectively, grew up in a suburbanarea near Chicago, Illinois. When
Lauren's brother and then her sister graduatedhigh school and joined the military, it
effectively meant that Lauren was almost likean only child at home. In high

(54:10):
school, Lauren was introduced to marijuanaand later to heroin. That introduction effectively
started a battle with addiction that Laurenwould face her whole life. Now.
We make it a point on ourshow to emphasize that factors like addiction,
mental health, homelessness, and otherfactors have no bearing on the value of

(54:35):
human life much of the time,though unfortunately it's those cases that don't get
the same coverage as others, leavingfamilies feeling often like they're fighting for answers
and justice alone. The picture I'dlike to paint instead is what Michelle envisions

(54:57):
when she thinks of her favorite memoryof her se sister Lauren. Here's Michelle.
Probably my favorite would be when wewere all little. My brother played
in football, like the town's footballteam. I was a cheerleader, and

(55:17):
she wanted to do everything that likemy brother and I did, and my
mom ended up sewing her like herown little cheerleading costume. I think she's
probably like three or four, likebarely talk, dairly walk, cute,
little chubby cheeked girl. But shewas like our little mascot, our little
cheerleading mascot, I mean, Andthat's basically how she was her whole life,

(55:43):
like greed, adorable person. Afew years after high school, Lauren
and her boyfriend Mike moved to MelrosePark, an incorporated area also known as
Leyden Park, a neighboring town towhere she grew up right outside of Cook
County in Illinois. While living onher own, though, she continued to

(56:04):
struggle with addiction, having stretches ofsobriety dotted with periods where her addiction went
out. Despite her personal battles,she stayed in contact with her family,
who were always trying to be acheerleader for her in the same way that
she was for others. In earlyJanuary twenty twenty three, Lauren's boyfriend had

(56:27):
called Michelle to check if anyone inthe family had heard from Lauren in the
last several days. No one had, which was unusual since, as I
said a moment ago, Lauren wasin contact with her sister fairly regularly and
spoke with her parents about once aweek, if not more often. From
this point of the phone call fromher boyfriend, the search for Lauren began.

(56:52):
Part of the problem her family facedin their search stems from the lack
of straightforward answers. No matter whatquestions they asked, Where was Lauren last
seen? When was she last seen? To illustrate even in my research,
Some reports stated that Lauren was lastseen leaving her home on December twenty ninth,

(57:15):
twenty twenty two. Other reports statethat Lauren was last seen leaving a
hotel on Mannheim Road on December thirtyfirst. It is believed that she may
have been heading to Franklin Park,Illinois, again a neighboring town, but
we can't be sure on that detaileither. Her family further don't even know

(57:38):
whether Lauren would have left of herown accord, whether there was an accident,
or whether she met with foul play. Still further, her family can't
answer to a motive for either herleaving or for foul play. While most

(57:58):
families in the cases we cover havese some idea, some gut feeling of
what may have happened to their lovedone, even that aspect of Lauren's disappearance
remains a huge question mark. Iasked Michelle, since there wasn't one theory
that made more sense to her thanany other, if there were at least
a theory that she believes could beruled out, but even that was something

(58:22):
she didn't feel comfortable doing. Whathave been the tips or the rumors that
you've learned over the course of thislast year, I mean not anything.
I mean it can what we haveheard or what we think is you know,

(58:42):
it could be anywhere from you know, with her being a heroin addict
she od the twenty ninth, youknow, and then who knows, you
know, was she with people andthey were too scared so they hid her
body somewhere or is she running froma drug Taylor. Is she I mean,
did she end up getting trafficked?No? Idea? Wow? Are

(59:07):
there any I guess, rumors ortheories that you feel like could be ruled
out? At least I mean,if we're you know, if there are
all these different possibilities, are thereany that you think, okay that is
not like Lauren? No? Okay, No, unfortunately not because I mean
I just I don't know, right, and I have no feeling one way

(59:28):
or another, you know, like, is she out there? Is she
not? I don't know. Whateverhappened to Lauren right before New Year's in
twenty twenty two could literally have beenanything. While I don't feel comfortable suggesting
one theory over another, I canprovide the few details we do have.

(59:49):
Here's what we know from Lauren's finaldays. We know that Laurence spoke to
Michelle on December twenty eighth, andthat she didn't mention anything particularly troubling to
her sisters. Lauren's boyfriend, Mikesaid that he spoke with Lauren a day
or two later. Unfortunately, someof Mike's recollection of dates and times has

(01:00:10):
been a little fuzzy, so it'sbeen hard to nail down specifics. Michelle
learned from him, though, thatLauren was supposed to be staying at a
nearby hotel for New Years. Despitetelling Michelle that he had called the hotel
in order to reach Lauren. Unfortunately, when he spoke with Michelle, Mike

(01:00:30):
could no longer remember the name ofthat hotel. The family spent weeks searching
that tip to try to figure outwhat may have happened to Lauren. Then,
in February twenty twenty three, Michelleremembered that Lauren had sent her an
email asking her to be a recoveryperson to her eye cloud in case anything

(01:00:52):
ever happened. Now Michelle could gaininformation hope elevated. Would this lead to
answers? When Michelle looked, however, there was really only one thing that
she saw that gave her any informationa photo. That photo was a selfie

(01:01:12):
taken in front of a local hotel, and it was timestamped on December thirty
first, so we know that Laurenwas still alive on the thirty first,
the date of the photo. Italso seemed very likely that the hotel Mike
remembered Lauren staying in was the hotelin front of which her last photo was

(01:01:34):
taken. According to Michelle, Lauren'sboyfriend informed her that Lauren had left their
shared home with a plan to goto the hotel to stay there for several
days. Given that the last photoon Lauren's phone was taken in front of
a hotel, they now knew onemore piece to the puzzle where Lauren had
been. Maybe the hotel would havevideo footage that could lead to more anas

(01:02:00):
answers. Again, hope rose,and again it quickly disappeared. Sadly,
that particular hotel only kept its videosurveillance footage for five days before writing over
it. That short timeframe seems crazyto me, but Michelle told me the

(01:02:21):
following about the neighborhood itself, It'sthere's kind of I guess, like growing
up it wasn't so bad, butit's always been known for like the late
nightmars and strip clubs. Oh yeah, things like that. Chicago o'haa airport

(01:02:44):
is right there as well, sojust some cheaper hotels, motels, things
like that, And I feel likeover the years it's probably gotten a little
worse, but like I wouldn't bescared to walk around by myself, okay

(01:03:04):
place? Yeah, now, hadshe been there long. I think her
and her boyfriend lived at that placefor like a year or two, Okay.
I asked Michelle about Lauren's relationship withher boyfriend Mike. Obviously, our
mind goes one to those closest tothe victim and two to the last person

(01:03:29):
who we can verify saw her alive. Both of those people would be Mike,
and she responded that their relationship seemednormal to her. Perhaps it wasn't
healthy since they both suffered from addictionissues, and Michelle admitted that she didn't
know Mike well, but from thetime she was around the two of them,

(01:03:52):
they had dated for five or sixyears. After all, he and
Lauren had seemed happy, while Michellehas in the time after Lauren's disappearance heard
more menacing rumors about Mike. Shealso acknowledged in our conversation that, other
than wishing Mike were still more involvedin searching for Lauren, that she wasn't

(01:04:14):
given reason to believe he was directlyinvolved in anything that could have happened to
Lauren, and we discussed how allpeople grieve differently, though she does wonder
if he might know more than hehas revealed to the family, so far
well, Lauren's family hasn't had manybreaks in terms of gaining information about Lauren.

(01:04:38):
The log at the hotel did reveala name, though it wasn't Lauren
Wilhoyt. The name on the bookswas the name of a person known to
Lauren and to her boyfriend Mike.Was this who she was coming to meet?
Did she stay with this individual?Her family only also learned that someone

(01:05:01):
had checked out of the hotel atthe end of the book to stay.
Was it the individual in the bookswho checked out? What does that person
know? And was that person responsiblefor whatever happened to Lauren. Michelle even
explained to me another possibility that Laurenmay have been staying at the hotel under

(01:05:23):
the name of the other individual.You see, Lauren had previously been accused
of stealing postal checks from this sameman. Could she also have stolen his
credit card as well and been usingit? Here's Michelle, It wasn't rented
by her, but it was rentedby greeting someone who she knows, and

(01:05:45):
the boyfriend knows, and the boyfrienddoesn't like, and he has threatened Lauren
prior like a week prior to Christmaslast year. He had threatened her over
some stolen postal checks I guess,which I don't know if Lauren stole or
not, but it's also that lifestyle, so good possibility. So I also

(01:06:08):
don't know. Then did this personactually rent that room or did my sister
steal his credit card information and rentit herself? I gotcha, And so
the room was rented for those threedays. Did she stayed because she took
a s healthie outside, so weknow she was there, and it was
you know, time date stamped totwenty ninth, so we know she was

(01:06:30):
alive and there on the twenty ninth. But that was the last picture,
the last anything we were able tofind, so we don't know how long
she stayed there, but she whoeverchecked out of the room on the thirty
first or the first, or whateverit was, but we don't know who.
Unfortunately, that detail too led toeven more questions. Was it Lauren

(01:06:55):
who checked out? Was she stillalive at that point? If so,
where did she go? Some haveargued that Lauren may have left of her
own volition to escape from the problemsstill chasing her from her past, or
to escape from drug dealers. Accordingto one source, Lauren had a drug
related charge from twenty eighteen, andmore recently had been arrested again for possession

(01:07:19):
of a controlled substance marijuana. Buther family has no more information now a
year later than they did just daysafter Lauren disappeared. That is why information
from you listeners is so incredibly important. Maybe you hold information that can answer

(01:07:41):
even one of their questions. Here'sa message to you from Michelle. Yeah,
if anybody has any information, youcan remain anonymous, call the Cook
County Sheriff's Office. We just wantto know where she is. We're hoping
she's safe. We just want toknow that she's okay, or what happened.

(01:08:03):
There's people who love her and carefor her, and we we just
want to know. We need someclosure. So if you could, please
contact the Cook County Sheriff's Department inIllinois or Missing Women of America. They're
a nonprofit. You can find themon Facebook. They'll keep you anonymous as
well. Thank you and Lauren,if you're out there listening, Michelle has

(01:08:25):
a message for you as well.We love you and we don't care what
you did, what happened. Justreach out, let us know you're okay.
We'll help you with whatever we can. We love you and we miss
you. Thirty years old when shewent missing. Lauren stands around five foot
six, has brown hair and greeneyes, and weighs approximately one hundred and

(01:08:45):
twenty pounds. She has a heartshaped outline tattoo under her left eye and
a tattoo of a Chinese symbol onher hip. Anyone with information about Lauren
will Hooyd's disappearance or her whereabouts isasked to call the Cook County Sheriff's Office
as seven oh eight eight six'five four eight nine six to hear other

(01:09:09):
lesser known unsolved cases like Laurens andhelp do your part in sharing their stories.
Please check out Coffee and Cases.We release a new episode every Thursday,
have over two hundred episodes to bingeand can be found on your favorite
podcasting app. If you want aunique perspective on crime from the education sector,

(01:09:35):
Teachers Talk Crime brings together two educatorsdiscussing both tales from their own classrooms
as well as true crime cases witha focus on students and sometimes teachers.
I'm Ashley and I'm Brooke, andyou're here with us on a Teachers who

(01:09:56):
Talk Crime podcasts, So as yousee, guys, it's a new year,
new bench. So if you havenot binge Teachers Talk Crime, we
are a podcast that focus on truecrime committed by adolescents young adults, and
clearly in the title, we areteachers. So we like to bring our
educational standpoints to some of our cases, if not all of them, and

(01:10:18):
just bring our little insights about whatwe would do if we had these children
in our class, how we wouldhelp them, X, Y and Z,
things of that nature. So welcome, yes, and we are on
all streaming platforms as well as YouTube. We release new episodes every Monday.
We try to do bonus episodes everyfull moon and an occasional other bonus content.

(01:10:39):
You never know what you're going toget from us, but definitely every
Monday. You can see us YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you
stream your podcast. So sit down, shut up, The murder is about
to begin. Oh no. TheCase of Isaac Grimes is a chilling story
of manipulation and betrayal and tragic consequencesthat rocked Palmer High School in Colorado Springs,

(01:11:04):
Colorado. Isaac Grimes was once ashy and introverted teenager. He found
an unlikely friendship with a charismatic andpopular senior, Simon Sue. This instant
connection led Grimes into a group Sueran called the OAR Operations and Reconnaissance Agents,

(01:11:24):
which is seemingly a place of comradityand acceptance for Grimes, who had
once struggled to fit in amongst hispeers. However, behind the facade of
friendship lay a darker reality no onesaw coming. Simon Sue, the seemingly
cool leader, had a sinister agenda. He manipulated Grimes and other members of

(01:11:44):
the group, employing threats, exposureto violence, and a sense of a
belonging to coerce them into criminal activities. The group began with petty crimes such
as robbery, but escalated into somethingfar more sinister no one saw coming.
The horrifying climax of what this groupwas capable of came on January third,
two thousand and one, when thenew year had just rang in. It

(01:12:08):
was then that the bodies of Karland Joanna Dutcher, Tony Dutcher's grandparents were
discovered in their home. Tony Dutcher, their grandson, had once been Isaac
Grimes's best friend. In their freshmanyear, He too was found murdered in
a nearby fort on a heel upfrom the home. The investigation initially struggled
with Leeds until Grimes was implicated throughwitness accounts and eventually confessed to his involvement

(01:12:31):
both to his mom and police.Grimes revealed a twisted scenario where he and
another member of the group, JohnMatheny, were ordered by Simon Sue to
commit the murders. Grimes himself didnot pull the trigger when it came to
the Dutcher couple, but he waspresent during the killing, and he was
the one responsible for Tony's death,having cut his throat which led to his

(01:12:55):
death. The motive, you wonderwell, it was all a sick and
twisted loyalty tests to secure Grimes's positionwithin the group. It was all orchestrated
by Simon Sue, a twisted gameof Simon says, who was out of
town at the time of the murderers, but received a phone call confirming that
it had been done. The legalaftermath saw Grimes and Mathany facing charges of

(01:13:19):
first degree murder, where Simon Suewas arrested for conspiracy to commit murder along
with violating organized crime laws in thestate of Colorado. While Grimes confessed and
cooperated with the authorities, Simon Sueattempted to downplay his role, claiming innocence
and denying all allegations of brainwashing orcult like behavior. The trial was contentious,

(01:13:42):
with the defense painting a picture ofGrimes being manipulated and brainwashed under Sue's
control, while the prosecution argued thathe had made conscious choices and acted alone
and was complicit in the crimes.Grimes received sixty years in prison, while
Simon Sue was given fifty three.The judge recognized Grime's cooperation and reduced his

(01:14:02):
sentence to fifty years, but remainedsteadfast that Grimes did not warrant unlimited mercy
given the gravity of his actions.The aftermath of the tragedy extended beyond the
courtroom to Jennifer, Tony's mother,who publicly forgave Grimes for his actions,
believing he was manipulated and was infact brainwashed. But she too faced her

(01:14:25):
own struggles dealing with Tony's death,which included imprisonment after a fatal collision left
some one dead, and this wasdue to her alcohol addiction, which came
about after Tony had died. Thecase stands as a harrowing example of how
vulnerable individuals seeking acceptance in their adolescentyears and friendship can fall prey to manipulation

(01:14:45):
and commit unspeakable acts under the influenceof sick individuals. It's a tragic narrative
that shattered lives, leaving scars thatmay never fully heal. Into a new
year people thought would bring new beginnings, not tragedy, and that is the
case of Simon Sue This Simon saysmurders. You can listen to all the
details of this case as we dogo more in depth on our podcast Teachers

(01:15:09):
Talk Crime and as always the belldon't dismiss you, we do and Happy
New Year, the Happy New Yeareveryone, New Year, New Binge.
Bye. Finally, we have apodcast that will be your new favorite binge
if like me, you love storiesabout sketchy people, serial killers, con

(01:15:33):
artists and everything in between. Ohand some humor and waffle house stories thrown
in for good measure. It's TrueCrime Creepers. Welcome to a little mini
episode of True Crime Creepers, wherewe talk about all their real life creeps,
from serial killers to con artists,I'm Kristen, the true crime fanatic

(01:15:54):
who loves to tell these stories,and I'm Mogap, the true crime newbie
who hasn't heard any of them.You'll check out True Crime Creepers. We
dropped new episodes every Thursday everywhere youget your podcasts. That being said,
that's kind of the mindset that wasaround a the time when this whole McDonald's
thing happened. So most of ushave probably heard the story of the woman

(01:16:16):
who was awarded millions of dollars aftersuing McDonald's for the coffee being too hot
after it spilled in her lap.Just at me next time, Okay,
I feel like I'm just getting scolded, you know at the mogap. Oh,
and did I mention she was likeholding the cup in between her legs
while she was driving. Just anotherdumb dum filing a frivolous lawsuit, trying

(01:16:41):
to get rich quick off her ownstupidity. Yeah, I mean That's where
I'm at right now, So preveme wrong. This woman became the laughing
stock of the entire country. Butit was way more insidious than even that.
I mean, it struck fear inthe country. This idea that These
people were just out there being stupid, suing whoever they could, and then

(01:17:02):
being rewarded for that. It reallyscared people, Yes, I can confirm.
Yeah, headlines would run about suingpeople for the most ridiculous thing.
It really gave people this idea thatit was this huge problem that they were
going to be the downfall of ourwhole system. They're costing businesses millions of

(01:17:24):
dollars and that's going to trickle downto the consumer as a result, and
we're gonna end up paying more becausesome lady was dumb enough to drive around
with coffee between her legs and thenhave the audacity to sue for it being
too hot. The McDonald's coffee casebecame the definition of a frivolous lawsuit,
practically synonymous with the term. Itwas the single most used example of why

(01:17:46):
we need torte reform, which wasreform on lawsuits. A torte is a
wrong somebody has harmed you. Yousue for that. I don't want to
get a whole lot into tort becauseit's so it's kind of dry towards so
it sounds like a snooze fist.Yeah, it's not great, but this
case was used as an example ofwhy we needed to change the system.

(01:18:11):
I mean, hot coffee's one things. But like, was there a lawsuit
when people were finding fingers in chili? Was there a Wendy's finger chili case?
Sure? Ever, that's totally differentthough, because if somebody actually did
find a finger in Wendy's chili,I think everybody would say, yeah,
you have the right to issue.The issue with that case was nobody believed

(01:18:34):
that this woman actually found the finger, which then leads to a whole other
issue of where this finger come from. That's also a whole nother story.
Okay, I want that to bethe next minisode, and then for the
third miniso, I'll tell you about'stooth in the grits at the waffle house.
No, no, uh uh okay, So what are the facts what

(01:18:54):
actually happened with this case? Well, hold on to your leggings. I'm
bringing that back. I will tellyou I'm actually wearing joggers. Hold on
to your joggers. Stella Leebek wasseventy nine years old when this whole thing
went down. I know she'd beenworking full time in a department store until
about a week before and on thisday, she was riding with her grandson

(01:19:16):
Chris in his nineteen eighty nine FordProbe to take her son to the airport.
On the way home from the airport, Chris decided to stop by McDonald's
drive through to get breakfast, andwith breakfast, Stella also got a coffee
with cream and sugar. They gotall the items and then Chris pulled into
a parking spot in the McDonald's parkinglot so that Stella could add the cream

(01:19:39):
and sugar into her coffee. Itwas widely spread that she spilled the coffee
while she was driving. She's driving, she has the coffee stuck between her
legs and it spills, and shesues. That was the common story,
but in actuality, they were ina parked car when this happened. This
super awesome Ford Probe, I'm surehad many wonderful features, but cup holders

(01:20:01):
were not amongst them. And notonly did it have cup holders, did
it not have cup holders. Thedashboard was slanted, so she did put
the coffee between her knees to takethe lid off to put the cream and
sugar in. I believe I hadheard this before, but I wasn't able
to fact check it before this minisod. I believe that at the time the

(01:20:23):
McDonald's lids didn't even have that littleflappy thing that they have now, so
she had to take off the entirelid to put her cream and sugar in.
That does seem like an enhancement inlater years, Yes, yeah,
And as she did, the coffeejust flipped back and dumped all into her
lap, completely saturating the cotton sweatsuitthat she was wearing. Stella started screaming.

(01:20:47):
Chris jumped out of the car tohelp, but the coffee had already
seared her skin. He took herto the emergency room, but the weight
there was hours long, so theytried a different hospital. It was about
forty five minutes since the incident beforedoctors were able to look at Stella,
and they saw that she had sixteenpercent of her body was burned, and

(01:21:09):
six percent of that were third degreeburns covering her groin, thighs, genitalia,
and butt. Why is it thathot she was in cotton? Yes,
and unfortunately I have seen the picturesand they are I mean, it's
terrible. Third degree burns extend throughevery layer of skin, like almost out

(01:21:32):
of the tissue. They can,and she had them in the worst places.
Anyone that has had third degree burnscan attest it is a brutal injury.
I couldn't imagine being burned that badly. Didn't you get them on your
arms or your chest or something?Yeah? I had them on my arm.
Yeah. I still have the scarsfrom when I landed on a stove.

(01:21:54):
Doctors initially thought that Stella wouldn't evensurvive these burns. She almost died
from coffee from how hot this coffeewas. How is that possible? They
had to take skin from her outerthigh and graft it onto her inner thigh,
permanently disfiguring her. I saw thesepictures in the documentary Hot Coffee,

(01:22:15):
and they show the picture, sowatch it at your own risk because it's
horrifying. She could not get outof bed for a full three days.
She spent seven days in the hospital. Doctors wanted to keep her longer,
but Stella knew that she couldn't evenafford the medical bills she'd already racked up,
so she went home, where shespent another three weeks recovering. Oh

(01:22:36):
my god. Her daughter had totake off work to stay with her and
take care of her. So McDonald'sserves their coffee at a temperature between one
hundred and eighty degrees and one hundredand ninety degrees. That's twenty to thirty
degrees hotter than the coffee served atmost other restaurants. For reference, Starbucks
coffee is served between one hundred andfifty to one hundred and seventy degrees,

(01:22:59):
and dunk is served between one sixtyfive and one eighty. Why would you
not have the audacity for you torattle off Starbucks and Duncan and not even
give me the waffle House coffee whichburned me for years. You better look
that up right now and tell meto I spoke coffee on me once a
day at the waffle Oh god,but I mean it would like be like

(01:23:21):
oh on your hand. But Imean it wasn't leaving any marks. Always
hot, always fresh. Two hundredand eight degrees is the temperature that our
ninja coffee maker Bruce coffee at.That's unsafe. Yeah it no, it
has to be really really hot tobrew. Oh, but it's certain it
does not have to be that hotto serve it. Do you think the

(01:23:42):
employee would know if I called thewaffle house. Oh my god, no,
but you need to anyways. Regardless, we all know coffee is hot.
Coffee has to be brewed at extremelyhot temperatures to get the flavors out
of the coffee. But here's thething, no one drinks it when it's

(01:24:03):
that hot. People either have tosit there and wait forever for it to
cool down, or they have toadd milk or whatever to cool it off.
That's what I do. Studies weredone that show that people actually prefer
to drink their coffee between one hundredand thirty five degrees and one hundred and
sixty two degrees, which shows thatcoffee does not have to be served at

(01:24:23):
or near brewing temperatures. I thinkdrinking hot stuff is gross. You can
come at me all you want,but just not a hot drink. Scal
and that opinion is not of themajority. This is America. We are
coffee drinkers here, mogab so showsome respect, all right, okay.
Also, McDonald's knew their coffee wastoo hot. In the ten years before

(01:24:46):
this incident was Stella. They'd hadmore than seven hundred people scalded by coffee
burns and make complaints against them.Oh my god, But they had never
lowered the temperature of the coffee.Why not, right? So another myth
about this whole case is that Stellathis happened to her and she just saw
dollar signs in her eyes and shejust sued the crap out of McDonald's.

(01:25:11):
But she just wanted them to coverher medical bills, which were about ten
thousand dollars. She couldn't afford them. She'd had to have skin grafts,
she'd stayed in the hospital for sevendays. And this is America, Like
she had a lot of medical bills. Yeah, and that's all that they
wanted. They wanted McDonald's, liketheir insurance to cover the medical bills that

(01:25:34):
Stella's insurance wouldn't cover. She wason Medicaid, and like maybe nugs for
life are like French fries, youknow, like could she get some humans?
Perhaps McDonald's wouldn't even give her nugsfor a year? Okay. Her
daughter Judy and her husband Chuck wrotea letter to McDonald's. They told them

(01:25:55):
that machine must be too hot.They wanted them to just look at this
machine and just fix if it wasbroken, because they didn't think that it
was possible that McDonald's policy was tokeep coffee so hot that it could give
you cause you to need skin graftsfrom the burns. Yeah, and I

(01:26:15):
don't think anyone would expect third degreeburns from a hot cup of coffee.
They were just like, this hasto be an aberration, and they said,
if it wasn't the machine's fault,then they should look at the policy
of how hot they keep their coffeeand make adjustments because it's obviously dangerous.
And also, will you pay formy mother's medical bills that are ten thousand
dollars? And McDonald said, no, thank you. Will you take this

(01:26:40):
eight hundred dollars and please go away? So Stelle's family was really upset.
Yeah, Stell's family was really upsetthat McDonald's wouldn't give them more than eight
hundred dollars. They didn't want millions, they just wanted her medical bills paid.
Ten thousand dollars is like nothing toMcDonald's and it's devastating to Stella.

(01:27:01):
Where does she be an eight hundredat even right? I have no idea.
They were just like, but what'sthe minimum amount we can offer it
a make her go away? Soshe took them to court, and at
the trial, McDonald's defense was thatpeople like coffee the way that they serve
it. They sell over a milliondollars worth of coffee every day. Why

(01:27:24):
fix what isn't broken? But McDonald'sadmitted they'd never actually tested if lowering the
temperature would affect coffee sales, whichwas a real bad look on McDonald's because
they had been sued before by anotherburn victim and had promised to do that
testing well. And these are differentlocations. Yes, so every McDonald's across

(01:27:45):
America has scalding hot coffee and abroken ice cream machine, like those are
the two identifying the two things youcan count on? Yes, yeah,
because it was in their policy.A quality control manager for McDonald's testify and
they asked him if he was awareof these seven hundred complaints between nineteen eighty
three and nineteen ninety two about peoplebeing burned by their coffee. The quality

(01:28:09):
control manager on the stand says he'sglad the number wasn't higher. He said
he was really pleased. I'm reallypleased that that number isn't higher, that
it's only seven hundred people. We'veburned the shit out of which I will
say comparatively, that is a bignumber. But if you were selling millions

(01:28:31):
of dollars worth of coffee every day, yeah, I mean just saying,
yeah, thank god more people didn'tspill it on themselves, because we'd be
up up up a creek. Theyknew how dangerously hot their coffee was,
they had no plans to lower theirtemperature or warn their customers that their coffee

(01:28:53):
was near boiling, And the jurywas just really shocked at how indifferent they
were about it. So when itcame time for the jury to make their
decision, they had to decide apercentage of fault. Oh, and they
decided that. Yeah, they decidedthat Stella was twenty percent responsible because she
had spilled the coffee on herself,but that McDonald's was eighty percent at fault

(01:29:15):
because they had a very long historyof people being injured, and they were
so dismissive of it. They treatedit like it was this trivial thing,
like she got to pay for geta whittle ali from the hot coffee.
So the story everyone heard was thatMcDonald's was sued for millions and that she
got millions, but she didn't.She sued them for one hundred thousand dollars

(01:29:39):
in compensentory damages for her pain andsuffering and triple punitive damages to send a
message to McDonald's that the temperature oftheir coffee is dangerous. But for the
record, again, they could havejust paid her ten thousand dollars to cover
her medical bills. But again itgoes to show the story that's out there,
because I immediately thought, I feellike a big ass hat. In

(01:29:59):
case you wondering, I mean,I don't know why you would set the
coffee on a slanted dash I mean, I've done way douma. So she
didn't. The dashboard was slanted,so she couldn't set it up on the
dashboard, so she had to bitin between her knees. Okay, rare
very. She wasn't just like beingan idiot asshole like she was really portrayed
to be. And then she literallyshe spent the rest of her life just

(01:30:23):
being a target of people hating herand being vilified as this person who sued
McDonald's. She's this sweet little oldlady. Plus not to mention, she's
seventy nine years old, so herskin is a lot. I'm just it's
just awful. No, but sothe jury ended up awarding her one hundred

(01:30:45):
and sixty thousand dollars in compensentory damagesfor her pain and suffering and medical bills
and all that, and two pointseven million dollars in punitive damages. And
this is how they came to thattwo point seven million. Everybody was outraged,
she gets two point seven million,which she didn't get that money.
They arrived at that figure because thatis two days worth of coffee sales.

(01:31:09):
They figured McDonald's should be penalized twodays of coffee sales, which is crazy
crazy, So the judge decided thattwo days worth of coffee sales was much
too high. Even though he alsosaid that McDonald's had engaged in wilful,
wanton, and reckless behavior, hestill reduced that amount to four hundred and

(01:31:29):
eighty thousand dollars, which gave Stellaa total of six hundred and forty thousand
dollars, and then McDonald's planned toappeal that, so to avoid that,
she settled for an amount that I'msure was less than six hundred and forty
thousand, probably more than eight hundreddollars. Somewhere in the middle there but
she did not get that. Theyappealed it like just I know, I

(01:31:53):
know, and I'm annoyed that itwas headlines everywhere that she was awarded two
point seven million dollars because that everybodythinks she got that money. She didn't
get that money. And there youhave it, listeners, another fantastic list
to kick off your new year,New pinch listening. Thanks for tuning in,

(01:32:16):
and be sure to follow all ofthe podcasts you enjoyed so you'll never
miss a new episode. Absolutely rememberto follow them on social media as well.
We hope you've enjoyed our collaboration.We want to thank all of the
podcasters who participated, and you arelisteners who make shows like ours possible and

(01:32:39):
who help the families of victims bysharing these stories, because in that way,
you're also providing support. Johanna andI hope that you've found several new
podcasts to enjoy in twenty twenty four. Until next year, Happy Benjing

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