S6 E5 - Sexual Abuse Prevention - an interview with Kimberlee Norris of MinistrySafe

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S6 E5 - Sexual Abuse Prevention - an interview with Kimberlee Norris of MinistrySafe

CW/TW - Discussion of child abuse/sexual abuse

"SEXUAL ABUSE DOES NOT SKIP ANY PARADIGM" - MinistrySafe

You've likely heard us reference MinistrySafe and Abuse Prevention Systems in past episodes, as Courtney used to work for them. Courtney has always seen the owners of this organization as mentors, because in alot of ways, they have shaped her to be what she is today - another survivor fighting for Justice, showing you what compassion looks like, and sharing our platform with victims and survivors impacted by these types of crimes.
We are pleased to announce an interview with Wife, mom, attorney and cofounder of MinistrySafe / Abuse Prevention Systems, Kimberlee Norris. Kim is unapologetically fierce, and compassionate - a rare combination in this world. She has been victim-centric and always engages with empathy within the organization (which she co-owns with her husband, Gregory Love, both who are lawyers versed in Sexual Abuse Prevention). Kim will give you, the listener, insight into what she and her husband does, share some tips for everyone who listens whether you lead a child serving organization, are a caregiver or parent to a child, or really just anyone who would love to be involved in either now, or in the future.

• FACT: One in four girls and one in six boys have been or will be sexually abused in their lifetime.

• FACT: Sexual abusers not only groom the victim, but they also groom the victim's parents, guardians, or caregivers ("the gatekeepers") in order to obtain trust and find their way in the door.

• FACT: 90% of victims are abused by someone they know and trust with abduction scenarios ("Snatch and grab") are a mere fraction of sex crimes.

• FACT: Less than 10% of sexual abusers will EVER encounter the criminal justice system.

• FACT: Child serving organizations are only as strong as their weakest link.These organizations are the most at risk for child sexual abuse. Ministries in particular tend to be trusting in nature, which creates critically low protective barriers - an enticing target for sexual predators.

• FACT: Background checks aren't enough. Vital as they are, they are not a silver bullet and they do have limitations.

• FACT: There are patterns in predatory behavior, known as the abuser's grooming process, that are predictable - therefore, preventable.

• FACT: Predators do not have a specific "look" to them, as they do fly under the radar. They look like you or me. Many abusers come from all segments of society, with many of them being married, have their own families, and are educated. Many appear helpful, trustworthy and responsible.

SOURCES -


A two-part biopic that an indie filmmaker made about Kim and MinistrySafe - In Plain Sight: https://ministrysafe.com/inplainsight/

Resource page full of helpful and insightful articles: https://ministrysafe.com/resources/

Fearless Series for Women: https://fearlessresources.org/fs4women/

Fearless Series for Men: https://fearlessresources.org/fs4men/

A few articles MinistrySafe has been featured in -

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ministrysafe-to-lead-church-safety-workshop-to-reduce-risk-of-sexual-abuse-in-ministry-contexts-301015657.html

https://abusepreventionsystems.com/news/

Episode Transcript

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(02:42):
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discretion is strongly advised. You canhelp us grow the show by leaving us
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our Patreon for lighthearted bonus content withthis Welcome to season six. You've heard
us reference Ministry Safe and abuse preventionsystems in the past episodes as Courtney used

(03:07):
to work for them. Courtney hasalways seen Kimberly Norris and Gregory Love as
mentors, as in a lot ofways they have shaped her to be what
she is today, another survivor fightingfor justice, showing what compassion looks like
in both of us sharing our platformwith victims and survivors impacted by these types

(03:30):
of crimes. For today's episode,I'm pleased to announce an interview with Kim
because of everything Amanda just said,Kim is unapologetically fierce and compassionate, which
is a rare combination in this world. She's been victim centric and always engages
with empathy within the company which sheco owns with her husband, Gregory Love,

(03:52):
both who are lawyers versed in sexualabuse prevention. Kim will give you
all insight into what she and herhusband does share some time to everyone who
listens, whether you lead a childserving organization, or are a caregiver or
parent to a child, or reallyjust anyone who would love to be involved
in some way, whether it's nowor in the future. With this,

(04:12):
I'm Courtney Fenner and I'm Amanda Cronin, and an Nefarious Nightmare presents Sexual Abuse
Prevention. An interview with Kimberly Norrisof Ministry Safe. I want to start

(04:46):
by saying this one in four girlsone and six boys. Let me repeat
this one in four girls, oneand six. That's the general statistic in
which sexual abuse occurs with children.It is daunting of a statistic because the

(05:09):
likelihood of knowing someone or even beingsomeone who has been sexually abused is very
high. It's a sad fact inwhich often these cases go ignored, and
even more sad that it is.Oftentimes the child is not believed if they
say something. There are so manytimes where a child is groomed and forced

(05:30):
to be silent about actions perpetrated byoffenders, and it is often discussed.
But what about the gatekeepers or parentsand caregivers? Did you all know that
grooming starts with the gatekeepers? Ifyou did not know that, you are
about to find out plus so muchmore now, as you all are probably

(05:54):
aware, we are taking a slightbreak from our normal episodes to introduce you
to something of a trail blank whenit comes to sexual abuse prevention. But
first, I wanted to hop onhere and say a quick thank you to
Kimberly Norris, because although I wasunable to make the interview, I really
want you to know that you havereally shaped us both into who we are

(06:14):
as true crime podcasters today. Itis because of your advocacy, compassion,
intelligence and strength that we know whatwe know and our hopes are to help
educate others in sexual abuse awareness.Kim, you really are a trailblazer and
as moms, Courtney and I aredeeply thankful that your light shines in this

(06:35):
dim world where you are helping spreadawareness and education in places where it would
otherwise never be seen. Courtney andI have learned a lot from you,
and now our hope is that ourlisteners could take a lot away from today's
episode two. Without further ado,here is today's interview. Well, hello,

(06:56):
everybody, I'm really excited to announcesomebody that I considered somewhat of a
celebrity in a way. Y'all haveheard me talk about her organization within my
own research in cases in the past, past episodes, things like that,
And her name is Kimberly Norris,and she and her husband, Gregory Love
have started this company called Ministry Safeand also Abuse Prevention Systems, which they

(07:18):
offer trainings to assist child serving organizationsand preventing sexual predators from being employed or
volunteers within that situation. And youknow, as you all know, I
name dropped them quite a bit.I often talk about other true crime podcasters
that have mentored me, but there'smore than true crime podcasters. In a
lot of ways, being employed withinthis organization has shaped me to be the

(07:42):
advocate that I am today. Andwhether she realizes it or not, Kim
has been a mentor to me.So you know, after two years and
some change of doing this podcast,I'm finally introducing you all to her.
So welcome Kim. Thanks, I'mhappy to be here. I'm so happy
you're here. So I know aboutyou, but you know our listeners don't.

(08:03):
So can you tell us a littlebit about yourself? You know,
your favorite music, food, places, you've traveled, things like that.
So my offices are here in FortWorth, Texas. The work that I
do is pretty much all over thecountry and to some limited extent, the
world because of various missional organizations.Right. I love country music, I

(08:24):
like all kinds of music. Iam addicted to exercise, and that's because
I like to eat. So I'ma preacher's kid. So grew up in
Young Live ministry and church ministry.And yeah, that's kind of my backstory.
Nice. I'm married to my lawpartner, so family fights are fund
at our house, I can onlyimagine. So you and Greg actually started

(08:50):
Ministry Safe as well as abuse Preventionsystem. So how long has that been
in operation? You know, almostthirty one years, initially out of a
law firm. So a lot ofthe preventative work that we did starting in
nineteen ninety ninety one, was outof the law firm, and we quickly
realized that on both sides of thisequation, both in ministries and in child

(09:16):
serving secular organizations, that there wasa great need for replicatable resources that people
could gain access to train their staffmembers, train their volunteers, take a
deeper dive into this specific realm thisrisk because left to their own devices,

(09:37):
ministries in particular tend to be moretrusting than they should be. They tend
to presume and presuppose that people whowant to work for them or volunteer with
them always have the right motive.So quickly it became apparent to us just
from our litigation practice that the churchBig Sea needed resources and help child serving

(10:03):
organizations. And I'd say I seea real need on the secular side in
sports organizations. Yeah, had needto better understand this risk, how it
might manifest in their program, andhow to protect against it. Wow.
Yeah, I've seen it time andtime again. It's not just churches either,
It's I mean, we all typicallywant to think that everybody has good

(10:26):
in them, and so we automaticallytrust. But you kind of need these
tools in your back pocket to beable to help prevent all of that.
So absolutely commend you guys for startingall of this. Would you mind explaining
a little bit of a difference betweenministry safe and abuse prevention systems? Sure?
So the ministry safe is just whatit sounds like. It's the ministry

(10:48):
side. So we have a lotof churches, Christian camps, missional organizations,
denominations, Christian schools. I mean, think about any crist based context
or ministry context, and that's kindof under the umbrella of ministry safe.
Abuse prevention systems is the secular side. So girls and Boys clubs, YMCA's,

(11:11):
secular camps, secular programs that arelike private schools that are not under
a ministry umbrella, zoo schools,museums, schools, sports organizations, you
know, you name it. Anyother context where an organization is serving children,
or educating children, or having childreninvolved in their organizational programming, that's

(11:35):
the abuse prevention system side. Okay. I always want to ask everybody what
they're why is what led you guysto essentially advocate for those who've been sexually
abused or assaulted or groomed. SoI I guess you know this about me.
I have a justice thing, andthat's essentially why I went to law

(11:56):
school. If you'd tell me inlaw school that I was going to be
a sexual abuse expert or sexual abuseadvocate, I probably would not have believed
you. It's not my experience.I'm not reliving something or vindicating something.
I just had a circumstance very earlyin my law practice where a individual came

(12:16):
in and he was working in achildren's facility in our city in state Fort
Worth, Texas, and he hadbeen fired from his employment in a child
serving context because he reported child sexualabuse that had occurred at the hands of
another staff member in the past.In our state, you can we're an

(12:41):
at will employment state. You canlet someone go because you don't like the
way they part their hair, butyou cannot fire them for complying with state
reporting law and state recording law thenand now said every adult is a mandatory
reporter of child abuse in ne Glood. So I took his case. It
was essentially a whistleblower case, andit was on principle the damages related to

(13:03):
it because his salary was so minimalor nothing, but it was offensive.
And that case morphed into a thirtysome odd plaintive case related to the kids
themselves who'd been sexually abused. Sothat was kind of my entree in.
And I was just shocked and horrifiedand disgusted that in this case, it

(13:31):
was an organization where these children lived. They weren't just participating. They lived
there, they went to school there, so that was their home. And
I was shocked and horrified that anyhuman being in the name of quote unquote
charity will allow that type of behaviorand minimize it and sweep it under the

(13:56):
rug. And that just hit awhole lot of buttons in me. And
that was the beginning that started innineteen ninety one. Wow. And it's
unfortunate because it still happens to thisday. And I'm just glad that you're
highlighting that fact right there within litigation. Is there a case that's stuck with
you since you were made aware ofit? Yeah, I'd say when I

(14:18):
thought about this, it would bethat case. I mean, I've been
litigating for over three decades now.If I'm actually in the courtroom, it's
in a tiny little context. Andthat's a circumstance where a child has been
sexually abused while his or her parents, who are participating in a cult and
the abuser was in spiritual authority overthat family. So that's if I'm in

(14:41):
the courtroom today, it's in thatcontext. The case I just kind of
daylighted was not in a that typeof setting. It was in a secular
child serving context. But that casereally impacted me. It was about ten
years of my life, literally putevery penny that I had into being able

(15:05):
to see it out through the end. During the course of that case,
because the defendant was something of asacred cow, I was vilified by them
to my boss. I went myhouse. My home was vandalized repeatedly,
my office was broken into four times, my name plate hanging over my car,

(15:28):
and my parking area was battered repeatedly. It's never happened before or since.
So it was a really impactful scenariofor me that finally resulted in vindication
for those kids and what they hadexperienced. An apology from the entity.
Well that's a little late, right, yeah. You know. They also
paid significant damages to provide an ongoingcare and counseling for those kids. So

(15:54):
it was a big deal and itlasted a long time. This won't mean
much to your listeners, but mycase made Paul Harvey. Oh wow,
Harvey talked about my case and theporobial rest of the story. So it
was on the front page of theWall Street Journal. It got lots of
press, lots of coverage. Itwas so long ago, and it was

(16:15):
one of the first really high profilecases in this state in Texas about child
sexual abuse issues. So that waskind of the front end of my litigation
career. In litigating, I haven'tlitigated any other type of case since that
case other than child sexual abuse.Wow, it's amazing what our path will

(16:36):
always lead us to. Right.What are some common misconceptions about child sexual
abuse and how do these misconceptions misdirectallowing predators to fly under the radar.
So one of the biggest misconceptions thatI encounter, whether it's in ministry or
secular context, is the idea ofstranger danger. And frankly, we come

(16:57):
by that concept honestly in that thefederal government ages ago created some cartoon vignettes
that I saw when I was akid that showed a guy in the trench
coat next to the public park withbeanie Baby spilling out of his pocket,
and you had a sad puppy ona string kind of reinforcing the idea to

(17:19):
parents and to kids that the dangerwhere child's sexual abuse is concerned is somewhere
outside the fence, you know,and typically that's incorrect. Ninety percent of
kids who are sexually abused are abusedby someone they know and trust. It
is not a stranger. So thisidea that parents have in their head of

(17:41):
that creepy neighbor or that creepy guy, or that guy who was staring in
the restaurant, could that be apredator? Sure that ninety percent of kids
who are sexually abused are abused bysomeone they know and trust. It's not
some stranger. And that kind ofgoes hand in glove with the concept that
is kind of the flip side ofthat misconception. Offenders, almost without exception,

(18:07):
they groom kids for sexual interaction,which is a process, but almost
as important as understanding that is understandingthat molesters groom the gatekeepers. So they
groom the people for whom they haveto go to get access to the kid.
So the primary gatekeepers are parents,So molesters are going to groom parents,

(18:32):
program directors, ministry staff members,the people who are running the program
to believe that they're helpful, trustworthy, responsible people. And they do that
because what every offender needs to grooma child for sexual interaction is trusted time
alone. And none of us,as parents, are carrying individuals, are

(18:55):
going to give time alone with ourkids someone that we don't think is trustworthy.
So this details into, you know, some of the other misconceptions that
we hang on to. I'd beable to spot in a user. I
would, I would see something,I would feel something, I would know
if this person had the wrong motiverelated to his or her interaction with my

(19:18):
child. And that's just not thecase of vendors have no visual profile.
They look like you and me,they act like you and me, and
they gravitate to places that are collectingchildren, providing services to children who are
within their age and gender of preference. Right, it's it's, you know,

(19:38):
for lack of a better term,they're almost like a kid in a
candy store. And one thing thatyou taught me that actually has always stuck
with me. I don't know ifthis is verbatim, but you had told
me something to the effect of justbecause there some person in a white van
doesn't necessarily mean that they're an offender. Like you said, they look just

(19:59):
like you and me, They actjust like you and me. They could
look like your normal, average,every day Joe. They're really good at
being what's the word camouflaged. Yeah, they fly under the radar. And
many offenders who are lifetime offenders,preferential offenders, who prefer a child as
a sexual partner. It'spend their lives, creating a persona of being charming,

(20:26):
helpful, nice guy, nice scalAnd again that's not coincidental. And you
know, I use a I havea pick that I use in my live
trainings. Now that it's a whiteband that's all dented up and all over
the side of it. It saysfree candy, and it has children's handprints
and paint all over it. Andthat's what a lot of us think is
the danger. Clearly, I don'twant my kid getting into that van,

(20:51):
But at the same time, I'vegot to be vigilant and understand that the
majority of the risk does not comefrom the guy in the white manion.
I've got to have boundaries and parametersin place with my child, who's no

(21:15):
longer a child, but that areprotective for where the bigger risk tends to
manifest obviously. You know, youguys created ministry safe and abuse prevention systems.
How has that molded you guys asparents and caregivers? So I was
a very proactive parent. I havealways been. Some of this is just

(21:37):
my personality, but I've always beenunapologetic about the boundaries that I put in
place for my child. I haveone child, and I unabashedly and unequivally
made my house the fun place tobe right and that was intentional. Most
of the sleepovers when they started tooccur in junior high beyond. We didn't

(22:00):
do that before that point, butwhen they started to occur, they were
at my house. The fun stuffto do was at my house, and
that was just that was just strategy, because I know what's happening at my
house. If my child spent thenight at anyplace else, it was heavily
vetted before that occurred, and didnot occur until she was in late junior

(22:22):
high early high school. And thatmeans not just knowing. I got to
know who the parents are. Igot to know what other siblings may be
in the house. I want toknow if the siblings who were in the
house, I can't tell you howmany phone calls I get about the older
brother's friend who came into the eightyear old's bedroom, that sort of thing.

(22:44):
So I just, you know,I know what's happening at my house.
I don't know what's happening in otherlocations. And is that what subjective?
Unequivalently, yes, but I cannotafford to be wrong about my child's
childhood experience. So some moms havecommunicated to me. By the way,

(23:06):
we have a parent training that Ifilmed a couple of years ago with my
daughter that just zeros in on youknow, as mother daughter. It was
super important that that line of communicationbe open from the beginning. So I
started the sexual conversation with my daughterwhen she was three, four or five
years of age in an age appropriateway. And one of the real compliments

(23:30):
I feel like one of my badgesof parenthood is my daughter said, I
asked you more things, mom thanI googled wow, because I knew i'd
get a straight answer, and Iknew you wouldn't be embarrassed to tell,
and I knew that I could getthe information that I needed. And I
think a lot of parents are hesitantto start and continue that conversation. Information

(23:52):
is power for our children. Yes, it is arming them with good information
from the get go, not ina scary way. I mean things like
somebody touches you where your bathing suitcovers. Mom used to know, And
is it always evil or nefarious?No, but I need to know because
I'm the primary gatekeeper to my ownchild, and it is my responsibility to

(24:15):
protect her until winter if she hasthe bandwidth, the size, the age,
the wisdom, the understanding to protectherself. I was over the top
proactive, and occasionally I got alittle bit of wow, why do you
I mean, why do you haveto be so? I asked my daughter
years later, do you think Iwas a helicopter mom? And she said,

(24:37):
well, only in the best wayspossible, only in the sense that
I knew I could go to youand you know, you know, same
song. Eighth verse to parents.Don't be the drop off mom, don't
be the drop off dad, showup, you know, volunteer, be
a part of it, drop inat very times. Do not assume that

(25:02):
if your kid is not precisely wherethey're supposed to be or in your presence,
that you need to know what's goingon in their lives. You need
to be very present, and youneed to go really slowly to allow any
other adult other than you and yourspouse to have one to one interaction with
your kid. And to me,that included relatives, that included grandparents,

(25:26):
that included extended family. I justfigured I don't there's not a lot of
room for error to get this right. I am so glad you brought that
up. And speaking of the helicopterparent term that's being used, I always
tell people, don't apologize if youare a helicopter parent, because there's worse
things out there right well, andI think that part of this also includes

(25:52):
appropriate communication to our kids. I'min charge. You are not imagine that
the cell phone that you can aroundwith you, I own it and I
will periodically review its content. Solove you mean it, but have no
expectation of privacy on this device,because I will periodically take a look and
see what's going on. I'm havingprotective and preventative on your computers, on

(26:18):
your cell devices. You know.I found some circumstances where my daughter had
some really dicey content on her phone, but she didn't recognize what it was.
Yeah, like she was sheltered enoughthat she had some communication from a
guy, you know, from achrist based context that was really over the
edge, but she didn't know whatit meant. So, you know,

(26:41):
part of it is us being proactiveon our children's behalf. As well,
she could tell her friends, hey, guys, please be aware that periodically
my mom looks at my phone.So it was almost like a prophylactic for
her. You know, don't sendme stuff that you don't want daylight because
periodically my mom looks at my phone. So I think the idea that when

(27:07):
we apologized for protecting our kids,we are assuming that what other parents are
doing or think about how we manageour interaction with our own child or protection
of our own child. We're assumingthat either my kid's opinion has more merit
than what I believe to be appropriateas the parent, or that those other

(27:30):
parents' opinions have more weight than whatI believe to be appropriate as a parent.
And that's just not you know.Sadly, as my daughter got older,
we began to be aware of moreand more and more situations, in
part because of what I do fora living, but where precious little friends
have been sexually abused by a grandfather, by brother's older friend who is visiting

(27:56):
the home, by an uncle who'svisiting them home. In one case,
by an older sister who had comeback from son context visiting the home.
And so just watching all these preciouslittle girls and boys. I mean it's
one in four girls, one andsix boys, and that skips no paradigm.

(28:17):
It is across the board. Sowatching these precious kids who my girl
grew up with, and understanding afterthe fact. Wow, So a lot,
a lot of what I'm seeing nowmakes sense because now understanding what happened
in that backstory. So yeah,don't apologize for protecting your kid. One
day they'll thank you for it,Yes, yes they will. Going into

(28:40):
the trainings, can you explain thedifferences between different trainings for our listeners because
they might not know and which wouldyou recommend for groups, Which would you
recommend for individuals such as parents andguardians, et cetera. So we have
a kajillion different plant trainings currently.The ones that are that I'll highlight here
sexual US awareness training. So there'sa ministry specific version, there is a

(29:04):
secular version, and it's kind ofthe foundational baseline training. It addresses the
common misconceptions that people hold on to. It addresses the fact driven data that
we know from academic studies. Itjust walks through the grooming process of the
offender. How abusers gain access tokids, how they target specific kids,

(29:30):
which specific kids are more likely tobe targeted than others, What sort of
characteristics play into that, How themolestor introduces nudity and sexual touch, and
then once that has occurred, keepsthe child silent. It addresses the most
common grooming behaviors that you might see. Here's the good news. Parts of

(29:52):
the grooming process are visible, andsince it's visible, it's to some extent
preventable because some aspects of it arevisible. So if you are very present
in your child's life, you're goingto see some things that may fall into
these categories, in which case youshould at least consider it might be this,

(30:14):
but it could be that, Sohave a category for that type of
behavior that otherwise you might not have. Awareness training addresses reporting requirements and awareness
training is kind of for anyone.Groups do it. Ministries do it,
sports organizations do it. The USOlympic Committee does it. I mean,
it's like the foundational information for anyoneA training that is more specific that I

(30:37):
filmed about two and a half yearsago is parent guardian training, and that's
aimed at parents. It's a slightlykinder and gentler version of me speaking as
a mom, rather than having mylawyer hat on. I'm incapable of taking
my lawyer hat off, frankly.But it's a discussion to parents. Here's

(30:59):
how to have those conversations. Andyou know, start early. If you
wait, it's too late, itis. You've got to start those conversations
early. Have the lines of communicationopen. Here's how you might consider starting
the conversation. It is a descriptionof the grooming process. It talks through
here's how you might what you mightsee in your own child. As a

(31:22):
for instance, if your child hasstuff or is doing things that you didn't
pay for and you didn't authorize,and they're they about where it's coming from,
start asking questions. It's a verycommon grooming behavior for molesters to give
kids stuff, give them access tothings they want to do. You're my

(31:45):
favorite. I can't do this foreveryone, so on and so forth.
So it talks through the grooming process, common grooming behaviors, what parents might
see. Some categories of their child'sinteract with the world that they ought to
be proactive about, like technology.So that's one that is specifically aimed at

(32:07):
parents or guardians. The tail endof that training is a very frank conversation.
It was scripted but unrehearsed. Sowhat you see on that training was
take one between me and her talkingthrough some specific Q and A how did
you encounter this in your life?And it's somewhat raw and really effective in

(32:30):
my opinion, And so that's whenI would encourage parents guardians to take a
look at skillful screening training is aimedmore at organizations. So this is premised
on thirty now forty some odd yearsof offender studies looking at the characteristics of
male and female offenders and training organizationshow to screen effectively. I mean,

(32:55):
we know a whole lot about offenderbehavior at this point. Ninety eight percent
of convicted offenders participate in offender studiesbecause if they don't, they can't get
probation, and that's a really strongmotivator. So they participate. They're given
all kinds of assurances of non prosecution. We've got all kinds of information that's

(33:16):
been gathered and there's an awful lotof predatory behavior or characteristics that can be
spotted risk indicators, so that trainingis aimed at those folk. We have
a number of other trainings on thefront facing side that are aimed at equipping
organizations to put a safety system inplace, so have an adequate safety system

(33:40):
that is aimed at preventing child sexualabuse and conversely responding appropriately. In the
last couple of years Cording, we'veadded in an affiliation with an entity that
has put together the Fearless Series andthats pieces of studies and writings are aimed

(34:02):
at abuse survivors. Wow, there'sa series for women, there's a series
for men. So that's on theministry safe side because it is a christ
base. It's called the Fearless Seriesfor men and women, separate tracks,
and really have seen some great We'vepartnered with them, but we have no

(34:23):
direct affiliation with them. We justthink the materials are really good. Yeah,
so that's access to some resources forthose who've already experienced sexual abuse.
So those are the baseline trainings thatwe've offered. Again, there are many
many others that are aimed at childserving organizations and ministry organizations that are meant

(34:47):
to equip those organizations to put asafety system in place. Love that and
the Fearless series that sounds amazing.Sure we can direct our listeners to go
visit. I think that all ofthese trainings are important. They kind of
touch on each and every different Iguess avenue. So you've got the organization,
you've got the parents and caregivers,and then you've got things for you

(35:12):
know, survivors. So I lovethis. This is all advocacy and we
always tell people we actually learned thisrecently and I love it. But there's
a there's a term called engage withempathy, and I just love that your
organization does just that. Are thereany success stories that you'd be willing to
share? Sure? So, Ithink one of the aspects to this that

(35:37):
has really been encouraging to me.We trained are on the ministry side.
We trained our three million trainee aboutsix months ago. We're currently training eighty
six thousand ministry staff members per month, and the secular side is pretty close
to that on the monthly training volume. I and really encouraged that. You

(36:02):
know, back in the day,ten years ago, twenty years ago,
I'd be on the phone giving legaladvice to individuals who oversee either a ministry
or an organization that serves children,and I would encounter resistance to responding appropriately

(36:22):
supporting the victim. You know,one of the misconceptions that we didn't talk
about is the idea of false allegations, the idea that people are out there
just making this stuff up, whicheven saying that out loud makes me angry.
We know statistically that false allegations arerare. They are two to five
percent of the whole. For themost part, when a kid said it

(36:43):
happened, it actually happened. Insome circumstances. Even when there's a recant
it's the kid's attempt to put thetoothpaste back into tube because of pressure from
the family or somebody else. Butfalse allegations are rare, and I'm fine.
I'm encouraged by the fact that whenI'm talking to ministry leaders across the

(37:04):
United States, I no longer encountersome of the same misconceptions or resistance.
And I would say, twenty yearsago, when we got the phone call,
it was because someone was in crisisand their hair was on fire,
so they were being reactive, anda lot of the calls currently are being
more proactive rather than reactive, andI think that's a success story by itself.

(37:29):
But I guess one of the placeswhere I feel, you know,
I just I love what I getto do. I'm one of the few
lawyers you will ever encounter who knowsI'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be
doing. And I am privileged towork in a realm that uses my skills
and abilities but also makes a difference. And I get emails from people from

(37:53):
abuse survivor saying, I watched thetraining. I wish this had been in
place at my church. I wishthis had I wish my parents could have
seen this parent training that I justviewed in order to be better equipped to
navigate this issue with my child.So that's those are bittersweet, But mostly

(38:13):
I get a lot of emails frompeople saying, thank you, thank you
for acknowledging this, thank you forbringing this out of the closet. Thank
you that my church feels committed tohave me as a volunteer take this training.
Thank you that my sports organization thatyou know, where I serve as
an assistant coach for a football team, thinks that it's important that this information

(38:36):
be in my hands as a volunteercoach. So that's that's a success story
because the more awareness that exists aboutthis issue, the more we take this
whole subject matter out of the perobialcloset. And you think about it,
one in four women, one insix men, if that was the past

(38:58):
experience of that high a percentage ofour population. Will add into that those
that are married to those who arevictimized, or those who are a parent
to a victimized child, or thosewho have a brother or sister who is
victimized as a child. You know, that's arguably one hundred percent of the

(39:19):
population as a whole. Yeah,so turning the light on daylighting this subject
matter is super encouraging to me.And you know, the success stories are
in when organizations do this better,when parents understand it better, When individuals
who are concerned about the safety orwelfare of the children they care about understand

(39:45):
this better, our kids are safer. That's a success story. Well,
you are definitely changing narratives and changinglives. So thank you so much once
again for joining me. Would youmind letting our listeners know where they can
find you, like social media andwebsites or how they can reach you should
they need you. Sure, theeasiest way is to just go to Ministry

(40:07):
Safe dot com or Abuse Prevention Systemsdot com. That's the easiest way in
there's intake there for getting additional information. There's intake there for getting information about
the services that we provide, Sothat would be my recommendation. I don't
do a ton of social media inpart because I don't know just sometimes it

(40:30):
can feel like you can feel likea black hole sometimes what can go on
there. But it's got value andit's a way of communicating that is effective.
So here we are connecting on itcurrently, but the best way to
reach us is through Ministry Safe dotcom or Abuse Prevention Systems dot com.
Awesome, Well, thank you somuch again. I really appreciate you joining

(40:52):
me and I am so glad thatwe finally got an interview. Yeah,
you're welcome, but to have hadthe opportunity to reconnect. Thank you once
again for joining us for this episodeKem, and we hope to work with
you again in the future. Toour listeners, please reference the show notes
if you're interested in any of thetrainings mentioned in today's episode. If you

(41:13):
don't know where to start, youcan head over to ministrysafe dot com and
go from there. We always endwith this but a gentle reminder that victims
and survivors are bees. Bees arestrong, resilient, yet vulnerable. We
must protect the bees at all costs, and that includes necessary trainings mentioned in

(41:34):
today's episode to have in your toolbelt. If we do not protect the
bees, we will not survive andthrive in this life. So be vigilant
for when you mess with the bees, you get the hive. Thank you

(41:55):
for listening to a Nefarious Nightmare.The music used in the theme was originally
by ghost Stories Incorporated remixed by Ryanrc X Murphy. Additional background music is
provided by Epidemic Sound. A NefariousNightmare is scripted, researched, and produced
by Courtney Fenner and Amanda Cronin.I'm Lany Hobbes and as always, be

(42:15):
vigilant for when you mess with thebees, you get the hive.