October 15, 2021 • 22 mins
In this episode, Jess and Annie introduce themselves and describe their vision for this podcast. They also discuss their experience as victims of the high profile kidnapping of their sister, Polly Klaas, which left Jess and Annie indelibly marked. This tragic crime also resulted in some harsh sentencing laws that worsened mass incarceration, with an outsized impact on people of color.
Annie and Jess hope to build A New Legacy for their sister through transformative conversations with community leaders and policy experts who are forging a new path of justice for this country.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
(soft music playing)
(00:06):
- Hello and welcome to ourfirst episode of A New Legacy,
where we will be havingtransformative conversations
with community leaders and policy experts
who are working to build a more inclusive
and holistic vision ofjustice for this country.
My name is Annie Nichol andI'm here with my sister,
Jess Nichol.
- Hi.
- Hi!
(00:28):
We are about to embark onthis exciting project to learn
more about how people areworking to change the criminal
justice system.
We're going to be speaking tosome really remarkable people
who have been doing thiswork for a long time.
As well as people who havebeen impacted by incarceration
and other crime survivors like ourselves.
Most of our episodes willbe centered around those
(00:49):
conversations,
but we thought it might beuseful today to talk a bit about
our personal stake instepping into this work.
So do you maybe want to start there, Jess?
- Yeah. So, it gives us a unique position
to be having these conversationsand recording them,
is that our sister waskidnapped and murdered,
(01:10):
and her name was Polly Klass.
And this kidnapping turnedinto a very high profile case,
which got national attention in 1993.
And there was a lot of impact afterwards,
specifically on ourcriminal justice system.
Some really harsh sentencinglaws were passed in the wake of
Polly's death,
that have worsened massincarceration in this country.
(01:34):
So we are seeking out peoplewho can teach us more about
what we can do to possiblycounteract some of the harm that
has been done as a result ofthis awful event that happened
in our family.
- Yeah.
- And having publicconversations about this is -
- It's uncharted territory for us.
You know, we've prettymuch led private lives
(01:55):
up until this point.
I'd say we've even triedto distance ourselves
from this part of ourstory, for many years.
A lot of friends didn't evenknow about our connection to
Polly.
So maybe we could say a littlebit more about the specifics
of the story. You know.
Maybe not everybody reallyremembers what happened,
or who Polly Klass is and whyit matters that we're talking
(02:17):
about it.
- Yeah.
Yeah. Well, first I'll say that, you know,
we were a really tightknit blended family.
Jess, you and Polly were the same age.
And you were step-sisters and best friends
from the age of three.
And I was six years younger than you both.
Polly and I had different dads,but the same mom. You know,
(02:37):
I think these kinds of familystructures are more and more
common these days.
We pretty much all just grewup sharing bedrooms and bunk
beds and being one big family.
- Yeah.
- So we are actually recordingthis on October 1st, 2021.
So today is the 28th anniversaryof Polly's kidnapping,
which is, you know,
(02:58):
it's always a pretty sad andintense day in our family.
So, on this evening, 28 years ago,
a man saw Polly walking home.
He followed her and he brokeinto our house that night,
and abducted Polly whilemy mom and I were asleep.
She was 12 years old.
There was an immediatenationwide search for her,
(03:19):
which continued over the followingtwo months until her body
was found.
Her killer was apprehended andconvicted and is on death row
at San Quentin.
And like we said, it wasjust a very public case.
You know,
it was all over headlines formonths and years after that.
I think because it was justsort of every parent's worst
(03:41):
nightmare, you know.
Like Polly's story seemed tohit people in a very personal
way.
- Yeah.
People felt less safe and werescared of something like that
happening to them, I think.
And there were probably fewerkids playing in the streets
after Polly's kidnapping.
- Yeah. Yeah.
There was a lot of fear,and people were angry,
(04:02):
and they wanted to make sure that
nothing like that could happen again.
And, that is what really setthe stage for the passage of
some really punitive sentencinglaws called Three Strikes.
- Let's maybe talk a bit aboutthree strikes before we share
more about, you know,our personal experience.
(04:23):
- Yes.
So due to this kidnapping,
which was so shocking for so many people,
legislators worked to passwhat came to be known as the
Three Strikes Law, which is atough on crime sentencing law,
really designed to ensure thatpeople convicted of repeat
offenses, like the personwho murdered Polly,
(04:43):
would serve extremelylong prison sentences.
Or sometimes life sentences.
- Yeah. Initially peoplesupported this law.
I think including, you know,everyone in our family.
Its intention was to keeppeople safe by ensuring that
people who had a very seriousviolent crime history were
removed from society.
- Yeah. The idea was thatpeople convicted of multiple
(05:05):
offenses, or strikes stayed in prison.
And you get three strikes,and you're out for life,
life sentence.
And, there had actually beena pretty much identical law
that had been proposed theprevious year called the
Street Sweeper Law. Butthat law was seen as
so extraordinarily harsh at thetime that it was immediately
rejected.
(05:25):
So that law was then rebrandedthough, as Three Strikes.
And it was widely embraced afterPolly was killed in the way
that she was.
With a man coming into her home,
and taking her from her bedroomwhile she had friends over,
with her mother sleepingless than 20 feet away.
So this kidnapping reallystruck a chord of fear among
people, particularly amongwhite suburban communities.
(05:49):
And I remember being told as a kid,
I was 13 years old whenThree Strikes passed,
and I was told that the lawwould make it so that what
happened to Polly wouldn'thappen to other kids.
And I thought it was a goodthing that Three Strikes
existed, but pretty quicklywe realized that there were
actually some major problems with the law.
It turned out that the realityof the types of crimes that
(06:10):
would qualify for strikeswas different than how it was
actually sold to the voters.
But by the time we realizedthat it was too late, you know,
it was already voted in, andit had passed with bi-partisan
support.
- Yeah. But then it turnedout that people were being
sentenced two decades inprison for stealing, you know,
$20 from a cash drawer, ortaking a bicycle, or for minor
(06:31):
marijuana possession.
You know. these are realexamples that, I think signify,
you know,
how a law that was supposedto restore justice has largely
done the opposite.
Three Strikes has beenpassed in 29 states.
- 29 states!
- Right. And there's areally harsh federal version.
And Polly's kidnapping was theevent that caused the Three
(06:53):
Strikes Law to really take off nationally.
- Yeah.
And there have been some reallyimportant reforms that have
passed over the past decade.
And we'll be talking tomany of the people who are
instrumental in passingthose reforms in future
conversations, but moreis needed, actually.
This law has done a lot of damage,
and is keeping way toomany people in prison.
(07:14):
- Yeah.
I think it's also reallyimportant to acknowledge that the
worst effects of this law havebeen felt by people of color,
and particularly by black communities.
You know,
these harsh sentencing lawsreally reinforce racial
disparities and systemicracism in the criminal justice
system.
And that's a huge part of whywe feel that Three Strikes and
(07:34):
laws like it need to change.
- That's right.
In California, almost 80% of people
convicted under ThreeStrikes are people of color,
most actually for non-violent crimes.
And this data was givento us by Mike Romano,
of the Stanford Three Strikes Project.
- And this is a big part
of what's motivating this work for us.
Witnessing the courage of peopleprotesting after the murder
(07:56):
of George Lloyd last summer,
really galvanized us to startreaching out to different
organizations to see if therewas anything we could do to
help.
And, I was pretty shocked tolearn that people felt like our
voices were actually needed here.
- Yeah. I remember those conversations.
I remember your face,looking at these people,
and you were kind of shocked, you know.
You were like (08:17):
"Really our voices matter?"
"You think we can make a difference here?"
- Yeah. I just couldn't believe it.
You know, I was like (08:23):
"Why?"
- Yeah.
- There was a lot I didn'tfully understand at that point.
I think about which crimevictims are heard, and which are
too often ignored.
That will be a big theme ofmany of our future episodes.
And, I think that's really thediscomfort I've been sitting
with since we startedhaving these conversations.
(08:44):
Because it feels like ourvoices shouldn't matter,
at least, not any more than anyone else
who has been a victimof violent crime. Right?
- Yeah.
- Like I think that part ofthe guilt and shame that I feel
in looking back at all ofthe attention we received,
is that there are so manykids who are victimized,
and who never received thedegree of anger and heartbreak,
(09:06):
the Polly did because theyhappened to grow up in less
privileged communities, or inplaces where violence is more
prevalent.
But you know, here's the thing.
When children are hurt,or abused, or killed
in senseless acts of violence,
we should all feel that lossjust as deeply as people felt
Polly's, you know. Any child.
- Any child.
(09:26):
And so here we are, speakingabout our experiences for the
first time.
And it's still not really easyor comfortable to speak about
what was such a personalloss in this public way.
- Yeah.
I think there are a lot ofthings I feel protective about
sharing.
So I guess my question is: what do we want people to know (09:42):
undefined
about what it was like tohave been Polly's sisters?
You know. What would beuseful to share here?
- Yeah. It's a great question.
And I think it speaks to,partly, why we've actually not
been involved in thepublic eye for so long.
I mean -
So there's Polly.
We could talk about whatit was like to know her,
(10:03):
and be her sister.
As well as what it was liketo lose her, how we did.
But the thing I want to talkabout now is, what it was like
being related to this publicfigure of Polly Klass.
- Yeah.
- So there was so much attentionand so much media that,
really, most people in ourfamily kind of retreated from the
(10:23):
public eye.
It was really overwhelming at the time.
I remember almost every day,
it seemed that there was some news story.
We'd see it if we justopened the newspaper.
And it was a really heightenedkind of sensational moment.
And, you know, we werein the center of that,
as part of the family, and as sisters.
So just speaking to that piece,
(10:46):
I think that a big part ofmy not wanting to be involved
publicly is that,
being related to Polly Klasswould typically get a pretty
big reaction from peoplewhen we'd tell them.
You know, there would be this,
this gasp kind of reaction thatoften happened even actually
still happens.
And I think that, as akid and as a young adult,
(11:08):
that was a lot to deal with.
Really, it was too much to deal with.
And I didn't want that eventto define who I was in other
people's eyes.
Or really in my own eyes actually.
And so I backed off from all that,
and telling people about it.
And I didn't really talk aboutit for many years, actually.
- Yeah, me too.
Yeah. You know,
(11:29):
when I think about themedia attention we received,
I think about how it wasboth this enormous privilege.
You know, because many,
many people don't receiveanything like the attention that
we did.
We were very validated as victims.
And we know what happened toPolly when there are so many
people who never find out whathappened to their loved ones
that had totally disappeared.
(11:49):
- Yeah, totally.
- But I also think the attentiondelayed our healing and
really important ways.
- Yeah.
You know, and another reasonI think we haven't been
involved in the publicconversation so far,
is that it feels like Pollywas made into something that
she wasn't.
She became this symbol, andwas almost used as a tool for
(12:09):
this harsh criminal justice agenda.
And, I couldn't really letin the reality that that was
happening, you know.
- Yeah.
It was just too much toreally know what to do with.
- Absolutely. I thinkthat was a big barrier.
Both of us had to push throughin order to do this work.
- Yeah.
So what would you say aboutyour experience growing up in
(12:31):
the aftermath of all that?
- I would say that the primaryexperience I can describe is
confusion. You know,
it was incredibly confusing togo from being a pretty normal
kid to suddenly existing inthis reality where really scary
things could happen.
It was confusing that ourtragedy was broadcast across the
(12:51):
globe and everyone knew about it.
And had their own thoughtsand feelings about it
without ever having known Polly.
It was confusing to see thesister I knew and loved,
you know, turned into a political tool.
Like you said.
I don't think I can overstatehow much that has compounded
my trauma and the pain of losing her.
(13:13):
You know,
one of my most painful memoriesfrom that time happened just
months after Polly was found.
I was seven.
And I was asked to go on atelevision program at the White
House,
where the president wassupposed to answer children's
questions.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. I can't rememberwho exactly encouraged me
(13:33):
to say what I said,
but I do remember clutchingthis little stuffed dolphin to
my chest and telling BillClinton that I was scared that I
wouldn't get to grow up,because there were a lot of bad
people out there on the streets. You know.
I remember him tearing up andtelling me that he would try
to do something about that.
(13:53):
And, the shame that I feelwhen I remember that moment is
pretty devastating. You know.
I was this little girl whosesister had been murdered just
months earlier, and I had noidea how much trauma was in
store for me in my lifeas a result of that,
or how catastrophic the impactof Three Strikes would be.
And I really wish that Icould go back in time and just
(14:15):
erase that moment.
- What would you say aboutyour experience from that time?
- Yeah, I mean, that's just quite a story.
I think for me, I also woke upto the reality when I was 12,
that really awful things happen.
Like that there are peoplethat do terrible things.
(14:36):
And I didn't really feeltruly safe anywhere.
But I think it also made meinto, like more of a courageous
teenager.
I think Polly's death kindof catapulted me into living
bigger. You know,
I played basketball,
and I got a bit aggressive on the court.
I don't know if you remember,
but I'd kind of didwith like bloody knees.
(14:58):
(laughing)
And bruises.
(laughing)
And stuff.
I also sought out bignew experiences like,
being an exchange student inmy senior year of high school,
or starting my ownbusiness in my twenties.
I think I've wanted to live really fully,
partly because Polly lost herlife so young and missed out
on so many things.
- Yeah.
That makes so much sense.
(15:19):
You know, as I got older,
I know I wanted to forge a lifeand an identity that wasn't
just about victim hood,
and the fear and traumaaround what happened to us.
You know.
I'm a writer and I wanted tocraft the narrative of my own
life and make more self-determinedchoices rather than just
kind of being this person thathad been done to. You know.
(15:39):
And I think a lot ofsurvivors feel that way.
I will say that creating thispodcast and stepping into the
kind of advocacy that we wantto do, after avoiding the
spotlight for so long, canfeel a little scary at moments,
you know.
Like as much as we both love Polly,
I don't think either of uswant to be defined by this
terrible thing that happened to us.
(16:00):
But we also recognize that thereis more work that is needed
to prevent further harm from happening,
and committing ourselves tothat feels like a loving tribute
to Polly too.
- Absolutely. Yeah.
So let's talk about what we'regoing to be doing on this
podcast.
You know, over the past year,
we've been having some greatconversations to help us
(16:22):
educate ourselves, and learnmore about what kind of action
is needed,
really to fundamentally changeour approach to justice.
And our hope is that theseconversations can also be an
educational resource for otherpeople who care about these
issues, but may not know howto take action or get involved.
- Yeah.
I think a lot of people areconfused that there has been
(16:42):
this sort of dominant narrativethat what victims of crime
want is punitive sentencing loss.
You know,
the thing is that that narrativeactually excludes a lot of
survivors.
The truth is that folks ofcolor have largely not been
represented in the conversationaround what victims want,
which is so strangebecause people of color are
(17:03):
significantly more likely tobe victims of crime than white
folks like us.
- Yeah.
And that's why we've beenreally seeking out perspectives
from people who have been themost impacted by these tough
on crime approaches.
- Yeah.
I mean the organizers andadvocates we've been speaking to
have been incredibly generousto help us learn more about
(17:23):
innovative strategies thatcommunities are using to disrupt
cycles of harm.
We've been learning aboutrehabilitation and reentry
services that allow peopleleaving prison to turn their
lives around and rejoin society.
We're learning about community-basedviolence intervention
and restorative justiceand trauma treatment.
And so many other approachesthat are designed to create
(17:45):
justice and equity.
- Yeah. Will you say more about that?
- Yeah. Okay.
So one of the main things thatI think needs to be at the
forefront of the conversationis violence prevention.
You know.
I think a lot of people hearthat term and they feel a sense
of skepticism or hopelessness.
Like how do you address theroot causes of violence or
trauma within a community or a society?
(18:08):
- Yeah.
Like how do you even beginto resolve that? Right.
It seems like it would just beeasier, in a way, just to put
people in prison who commit crimes, right?
Like there's somethingstraightforward or logical about
that.
- Yeah. But you know,
the one thing that has becomereally clear over the past few
decades,
since this, tough on crimeethos really took hold,
(18:30):
is that we have incarceratedmore people than ever before.
There are more police on thestreets than ever before.
And our communities havenot gotten safer. In fact,
I think in the wake of themurder of George Floyd and the
protests of last year,
a lot of folks would arguethat things feel less safe.
I think that's whyprevention is so important.
(18:51):
You know,
by the time someone has been hurt,
and the person who harmed themis in prison, it's too late.
You know. As survivors,
what we want is to preventthat harm from happening in the
first place.
- Totally.
And it's also worth acknowledgingthat while these are
issues that we both caredabout for a long time,
we are new to having thesekinds of conversations in a
(19:13):
really public way, you know?
So -
- Yeah.
We're probably going to beclunky and awkward and moments.
- Oh yeah.
- You know,
I know there are times wherewe'll look at each other,
we already have, you know, and be like:
"Is this an okay question to ask?"
"Am I allowed to ask this?"
You know,
there's probably going tobe times when we mess up,
or look back on a particularconversation and wish we had
(19:33):
done it a little differently.
And as a couple ofprivileged white ladies,
it's probably guaranteed thatthis is going to get awkward
or difficult in moments.
But I think it's importantto have these conversations
anyway.
- Yeah.
My hope for us is that we canembody a mindset of humility
(19:54):
and learning, and really embraceour own fallibility as we
find our way here.
- Yeah.
- You know,
I think it's important thatpeople not allow the fear of
imperfection, or of gettingit wrong to hinder their
willingness to enterinto these conversations.
- Absolutely.
- And especially to learnfrom folks who have different
backgrounds and differentperspectives, you know.
(20:14):
I think as long as we'rewilling to be accountable,
I think we need to be braveenough to risk messing up,
or feeling awkward because,at the end of the day,
there are too many lives at stake.
- Well said.
- So the name of thispodcast is A New Legacy.
Because the truth is that wedon't want the legacy of the
(20:34):
little girl that we loved,
to be these unjust laws andtough on crime policies.
We want a new legacy for Polly,
(soft music playing)
and a new legacy ofjustice for this country,
that's inclusive and holistic.
And, fortunately there are somany amazing people who are
and have been forging the path.
And we're so excited to getto speak with them on this
(20:56):
podcast.
And we will be putting outopportunities to support the work
that people are doing atthe end of every episode.
And we hope that you'll feelinspired to get involved.
- It's exciting.
So thank you so much for joiningus for this first episode
of A New Legacy. Our nextepisode will be a conversation
with Tinisch Hollins, who isthe executive director for
(21:19):
Californians for safety and justice.
Tinisch has been instrumentalin passing some very important
reforms on the ballot overthe past several years.
And, I can categorically saythat our conversation with
Tinisch changed my life.
- Yeah.
Her voice and her story is onethat I believe urgently needs
to be heard. So please tune in for that.
(21:40):
And in the meantime,
if you'd like to learnmore about our work,
check out our website,
anewlegacy.com.
And we'll talk to you next time.
(soft music playing)
(soft music playing)
(00:06):
- Hello and welcome to ourfirst episode of A New Legacy,
where we will be havingtransformative conversations
with community leaders and policy experts
who are working to build a more inclusive
and holistic vision ofjustice for this country.
My name is Annie Nichol andI'm here with my sister,
Jess Nichol.
- Hi.
- Hi!
(00:28):
We are about to embark onthis exciting project to learn
more about how people areworking to change the criminal
justice system.
We're going to be speaking tosome really remarkable people
who have been doing thiswork for a long time.
As well as people who havebeen impacted by incarceration
and other crime survivors like ourselves.
Most of our episodes willbe centered around those
(00:49):
conversations,
but we thought it might beuseful today to talk a bit about
our personal stake instepping into this work.
So do you maybe want to start there, Jess?
- Yeah. So, it gives us a unique position
to be having these conversationsand recording them,
is that our sister waskidnapped and murdered,
(01:10):
and her name was Polly Klass.
And this kidnapping turnedinto a very high profile case,
which got national attention in 1993.
And there was a lot of impact afterwards,
specifically on ourcriminal justice system.
Some really harsh sentencinglaws were passed in the wake of
Polly's death,
that have worsened massincarceration in this country.
(01:34):
So we are seeking out peoplewho can teach us more about
what we can do to possiblycounteract some of the harm that
has been done as a result ofthis awful event that happened
in our family.
- Yeah.
- And having publicconversations about this is -
- It's uncharted territory for us.
You know, we've prettymuch led private lives
(01:55):
up until this point.
I'd say we've even triedto distance ourselves
from this part of ourstory, for many years.
A lot of friends didn't evenknow about our connection to
Polly.
So maybe we could say a littlebit more about the specifics
of the story. You know.
Maybe not everybody reallyremembers what happened,
or who Polly Klass is and whyit matters that we're talking
(02:17):
about it.
- Yeah.
Yeah. Well, first I'll say that, you know,
we were a really tightknit blended family.
Jess, you and Polly were the same age.
And you were step-sisters and best friends
from the age of three.
And I was six years younger than you both.
Polly and I had different dads,but the same mom. You know,
(02:37):
I think these kinds of familystructures are more and more
common these days.
We pretty much all just grewup sharing bedrooms and bunk
beds and being one big family.
- Yeah.
- So we are actually recordingthis on October 1st, 2021.
So today is the 28th anniversaryof Polly's kidnapping,
which is, you know,
(02:58):
it's always a pretty sad andintense day in our family.
So, on this evening, 28 years ago,
a man saw Polly walking home.
He followed her and he brokeinto our house that night,
and abducted Polly whilemy mom and I were asleep.
She was 12 years old.
There was an immediatenationwide search for her,
(03:19):
which continued over the followingtwo months until her body
was found.
Her killer was apprehended andconvicted and is on death row
at San Quentin.
And like we said, it wasjust a very public case.
You know,
it was all over headlines formonths and years after that.
I think because it was justsort of every parent's worst
(03:41):
nightmare, you know.
Like Polly's story seemed tohit people in a very personal
way.
- Yeah.
People felt less safe and werescared of something like that
happening to them, I think.
And there were probably fewerkids playing in the streets
after Polly's kidnapping.
- Yeah. Yeah.
There was a lot of fear,and people were angry,
(04:02):
and they wanted to make sure that
nothing like that could happen again.
And, that is what really setthe stage for the passage of
some really punitive sentencinglaws called Three Strikes.
- Let's maybe talk a bit aboutthree strikes before we share
more about, you know,our personal experience.
(04:23):
- Yes.
So due to this kidnapping,
which was so shocking for so many people,
legislators worked to passwhat came to be known as the
Three Strikes Law, which is atough on crime sentencing law,
really designed to ensure thatpeople convicted of repeat
offenses, like the personwho murdered Polly,
(04:43):
would serve extremelylong prison sentences.
Or sometimes life sentences.
- Yeah. Initially peoplesupported this law.
I think including, you know,everyone in our family.
Its intention was to keeppeople safe by ensuring that
people who had a very seriousviolent crime history were
removed from society.
- Yeah. The idea was thatpeople convicted of multiple
(05:05):
offenses, or strikes stayed in prison.
And you get three strikes,and you're out for life,
life sentence.
And, there had actually beena pretty much identical law
that had been proposed theprevious year called the
Street Sweeper Law. Butthat law was seen as
so extraordinarily harsh at thetime that it was immediately
rejected.
(05:25):
So that law was then rebrandedthough, as Three Strikes.
And it was widely embraced afterPolly was killed in the way
that she was.
With a man coming into her home,
and taking her from her bedroomwhile she had friends over,
with her mother sleepingless than 20 feet away.
So this kidnapping reallystruck a chord of fear among
people, particularly amongwhite suburban communities.
(05:49):
And I remember being told as a kid,
I was 13 years old whenThree Strikes passed,
and I was told that the lawwould make it so that what
happened to Polly wouldn'thappen to other kids.
And I thought it was a goodthing that Three Strikes
existed, but pretty quicklywe realized that there were
actually some major problems with the law.
It turned out that the realityof the types of crimes that
(06:10):
would qualify for strikeswas different than how it was
actually sold to the voters.
But by the time we realizedthat it was too late, you know,
it was already voted in, andit had passed with bi-partisan
support.
- Yeah. But then it turnedout that people were being
sentenced two decades inprison for stealing, you know,
$20 from a cash drawer, ortaking a bicycle, or for minor
(06:31):
marijuana possession.
You know. these are realexamples that, I think signify,
you know,
how a law that was supposedto restore justice has largely
done the opposite.
Three Strikes has beenpassed in 29 states.
- 29 states!
- Right. And there's areally harsh federal version.
And Polly's kidnapping was theevent that caused the Three
(06:53):
Strikes Law to really take off nationally.
- Yeah.
And there have been some reallyimportant reforms that have
passed over the past decade.
And we'll be talking tomany of the people who are
instrumental in passingthose reforms in future
conversations, but moreis needed, actually.
This law has done a lot of damage,
and is keeping way toomany people in prison.
(07:14):
- Yeah.
I think it's also reallyimportant to acknowledge that the
worst effects of this law havebeen felt by people of color,
and particularly by black communities.
You know,
these harsh sentencing lawsreally reinforce racial
disparities and systemicracism in the criminal justice
system.
And that's a huge part of whywe feel that Three Strikes and
(07:34):
laws like it need to change.
- That's right.
In California, almost 80% of people
convicted under ThreeStrikes are people of color,
most actually for non-violent crimes.
And this data was givento us by Mike Romano,
of the Stanford Three Strikes Project.
- And this is a big part
of what's motivating this work for us.
Witnessing the courage of peopleprotesting after the murder
(07:56):
of George Lloyd last summer,
really galvanized us to startreaching out to different
organizations to see if therewas anything we could do to
help.
And, I was pretty shocked tolearn that people felt like our
voices were actually needed here.
- Yeah. I remember those conversations.
I remember your face,looking at these people,
and you were kind of shocked, you know.
You were like (08:17):
"Really our voices matter?"
"You think we can make a difference here?"
- Yeah. I just couldn't believe it.
You know, I was like (08:23):
"Why?"
- Yeah.
- There was a lot I didn'tfully understand at that point.
I think about which crimevictims are heard, and which are
too often ignored.
That will be a big theme ofmany of our future episodes.
And, I think that's really thediscomfort I've been sitting
with since we startedhaving these conversations.
(08:44):
Because it feels like ourvoices shouldn't matter,
at least, not any more than anyone else
who has been a victimof violent crime. Right?
- Yeah.
- Like I think that part ofthe guilt and shame that I feel
in looking back at all ofthe attention we received,
is that there are so manykids who are victimized,
and who never received thedegree of anger and heartbreak,
(09:06):
the Polly did because theyhappened to grow up in less
privileged communities, or inplaces where violence is more
prevalent.
But you know, here's the thing.
When children are hurt,or abused, or killed
in senseless acts of violence,
we should all feel that lossjust as deeply as people felt
Polly's, you know. Any child.
- Any child.
(09:26):
And so here we are, speakingabout our experiences for the
first time.
And it's still not really easyor comfortable to speak about
what was such a personalloss in this public way.
- Yeah.
I think there are a lot ofthings I feel protective about
sharing.
So I guess my question is: what do we want people to know (09:42):
undefined
about what it was like tohave been Polly's sisters?
You know. What would beuseful to share here?
- Yeah. It's a great question.
And I think it speaks to,partly, why we've actually not
been involved in thepublic eye for so long.
I mean -
So there's Polly.
We could talk about whatit was like to know her,
(10:03):
and be her sister.
As well as what it was liketo lose her, how we did.
But the thing I want to talkabout now is, what it was like
being related to this publicfigure of Polly Klass.
- Yeah.
- So there was so much attentionand so much media that,
really, most people in ourfamily kind of retreated from the
(10:23):
public eye.
It was really overwhelming at the time.
I remember almost every day,
it seemed that there was some news story.
We'd see it if we justopened the newspaper.
And it was a really heightenedkind of sensational moment.
And, you know, we werein the center of that,
as part of the family, and as sisters.
So just speaking to that piece,
(10:46):
I think that a big part ofmy not wanting to be involved
publicly is that,
being related to Polly Klasswould typically get a pretty
big reaction from peoplewhen we'd tell them.
You know, there would be this,
this gasp kind of reaction thatoften happened even actually
still happens.
And I think that, as akid and as a young adult,
(11:08):
that was a lot to deal with.
Really, it was too much to deal with.
And I didn't want that eventto define who I was in other
people's eyes.
Or really in my own eyes actually.
And so I backed off from all that,
and telling people about it.
And I didn't really talk aboutit for many years, actually.
- Yeah, me too.
Yeah. You know,
(11:29):
when I think about themedia attention we received,
I think about how it wasboth this enormous privilege.
You know, because many,
many people don't receiveanything like the attention that
we did.
We were very validated as victims.
And we know what happened toPolly when there are so many
people who never find out whathappened to their loved ones
that had totally disappeared.
(11:49):
- Yeah, totally.
- But I also think the attentiondelayed our healing and
really important ways.
- Yeah.
You know, and another reasonI think we haven't been
involved in the publicconversation so far,
is that it feels like Pollywas made into something that
she wasn't.
She became this symbol, andwas almost used as a tool for
(12:09):
this harsh criminal justice agenda.
And, I couldn't really letin the reality that that was
happening, you know.
- Yeah.
It was just too much toreally know what to do with.
- Absolutely. I thinkthat was a big barrier.
Both of us had to push throughin order to do this work.
- Yeah.
So what would you say aboutyour experience growing up in
(12:31):
the aftermath of all that?
- I would say that the primaryexperience I can describe is
confusion. You know,
it was incredibly confusing togo from being a pretty normal
kid to suddenly existing inthis reality where really scary
things could happen.
It was confusing that ourtragedy was broadcast across the
(12:51):
globe and everyone knew about it.
And had their own thoughtsand feelings about it
without ever having known Polly.
It was confusing to see thesister I knew and loved,
you know, turned into a political tool.
Like you said.
I don't think I can overstatehow much that has compounded
my trauma and the pain of losing her.
(13:13):
You know,
one of my most painful memoriesfrom that time happened just
months after Polly was found.
I was seven.
And I was asked to go on atelevision program at the White
House,
where the president wassupposed to answer children's
questions.
- Yeah.
- Yeah. I can't rememberwho exactly encouraged me
(13:33):
to say what I said,
but I do remember clutchingthis little stuffed dolphin to
my chest and telling BillClinton that I was scared that I
wouldn't get to grow up,because there were a lot of bad
people out there on the streets. You know.
I remember him tearing up andtelling me that he would try
to do something about that.
(13:53):
And, the shame that I feelwhen I remember that moment is
pretty devastating. You know.
I was this little girl whosesister had been murdered just
months earlier, and I had noidea how much trauma was in
store for me in my lifeas a result of that,
or how catastrophic the impactof Three Strikes would be.
And I really wish that Icould go back in time and just
(14:15):
erase that moment.
- What would you say aboutyour experience from that time?
- Yeah, I mean, that's just quite a story.
I think for me, I also woke upto the reality when I was 12,
that really awful things happen.
Like that there are peoplethat do terrible things.
(14:36):
And I didn't really feeltruly safe anywhere.
But I think it also made meinto, like more of a courageous
teenager.
I think Polly's death kindof catapulted me into living
bigger. You know,
I played basketball,
and I got a bit aggressive on the court.
I don't know if you remember,
but I'd kind of didwith like bloody knees.
(14:58):
(laughing)
And bruises.
(laughing)
And stuff.
I also sought out bignew experiences like,
being an exchange student inmy senior year of high school,
or starting my ownbusiness in my twenties.
I think I've wanted to live really fully,
partly because Polly lost herlife so young and missed out
on so many things.
- Yeah.
That makes so much sense.
(15:19):
You know, as I got older,
I know I wanted to forge a lifeand an identity that wasn't
just about victim hood,
and the fear and traumaaround what happened to us.
You know.
I'm a writer and I wanted tocraft the narrative of my own
life and make more self-determinedchoices rather than just
kind of being this person thathad been done to. You know.
(15:39):
And I think a lot ofsurvivors feel that way.
I will say that creating thispodcast and stepping into the
kind of advocacy that we wantto do, after avoiding the
spotlight for so long, canfeel a little scary at moments,
you know.
Like as much as we both love Polly,
I don't think either of uswant to be defined by this
terrible thing that happened to us.
(16:00):
But we also recognize that thereis more work that is needed
to prevent further harm from happening,
and committing ourselves tothat feels like a loving tribute
to Polly too.
- Absolutely. Yeah.
So let's talk about what we'regoing to be doing on this
podcast.
You know, over the past year,
we've been having some greatconversations to help us
(16:22):
educate ourselves, and learnmore about what kind of action
is needed,
really to fundamentally changeour approach to justice.
And our hope is that theseconversations can also be an
educational resource for otherpeople who care about these
issues, but may not know howto take action or get involved.
- Yeah.
I think a lot of people areconfused that there has been
(16:42):
this sort of dominant narrativethat what victims of crime
want is punitive sentencing loss.
You know,
the thing is that that narrativeactually excludes a lot of
survivors.
The truth is that folks ofcolor have largely not been
represented in the conversationaround what victims want,
which is so strangebecause people of color are
(17:03):
significantly more likely tobe victims of crime than white
folks like us.
- Yeah.
And that's why we've beenreally seeking out perspectives
from people who have been themost impacted by these tough
on crime approaches.
- Yeah.
I mean the organizers andadvocates we've been speaking to
have been incredibly generousto help us learn more about
(17:23):
innovative strategies thatcommunities are using to disrupt
cycles of harm.
We've been learning aboutrehabilitation and reentry
services that allow peopleleaving prison to turn their
lives around and rejoin society.
We're learning about community-basedviolence intervention
and restorative justiceand trauma treatment.
And so many other approachesthat are designed to create
(17:45):
justice and equity.
- Yeah. Will you say more about that?
- Yeah. Okay.
So one of the main things thatI think needs to be at the
forefront of the conversationis violence prevention.
You know.
I think a lot of people hearthat term and they feel a sense
of skepticism or hopelessness.
Like how do you address theroot causes of violence or
trauma within a community or a society?
(18:08):
- Yeah.
Like how do you even beginto resolve that? Right.
It seems like it would just beeasier, in a way, just to put
people in prison who commit crimes, right?
Like there's somethingstraightforward or logical about
that.
- Yeah. But you know,
the one thing that has becomereally clear over the past few
decades,
since this, tough on crimeethos really took hold,
(18:30):
is that we have incarceratedmore people than ever before.
There are more police on thestreets than ever before.
And our communities havenot gotten safer. In fact,
I think in the wake of themurder of George Floyd and the
protests of last year,
a lot of folks would arguethat things feel less safe.
I think that's whyprevention is so important.
(18:51):
You know,
by the time someone has been hurt,
and the person who harmed themis in prison, it's too late.
You know. As survivors,
what we want is to preventthat harm from happening in the
first place.
- Totally.
And it's also worth acknowledgingthat while these are
issues that we both caredabout for a long time,
we are new to having thesekinds of conversations in a
(19:13):
really public way, you know?
So -
- Yeah.
We're probably going to beclunky and awkward and moments.
- Oh yeah.
- You know,
I know there are times wherewe'll look at each other,
we already have, you know, and be like:
"Is this an okay question to ask?"
"Am I allowed to ask this?"
You know,
there's probably going tobe times when we mess up,
or look back on a particularconversation and wish we had
(19:33):
done it a little differently.
And as a couple ofprivileged white ladies,
it's probably guaranteed thatthis is going to get awkward
or difficult in moments.
But I think it's importantto have these conversations
anyway.
- Yeah.
My hope for us is that we canembody a mindset of humility
(19:54):
and learning, and really embraceour own fallibility as we
find our way here.
- Yeah.
- You know,
I think it's important thatpeople not allow the fear of
imperfection, or of gettingit wrong to hinder their
willingness to enterinto these conversations.
- Absolutely.
- And especially to learnfrom folks who have different
backgrounds and differentperspectives, you know.
(20:14):
I think as long as we'rewilling to be accountable,
I think we need to be braveenough to risk messing up,
or feeling awkward because,at the end of the day,
there are too many lives at stake.
- Well said.
- So the name of thispodcast is A New Legacy.
Because the truth is that wedon't want the legacy of the
(20:34):
little girl that we loved,
to be these unjust laws andtough on crime policies.
We want a new legacy for Polly,
(soft music playing)
and a new legacy ofjustice for this country,
that's inclusive and holistic.
And, fortunately there are somany amazing people who are
and have been forging the path.
And we're so excited to getto speak with them on this
(20:56):
podcast.
And we will be putting outopportunities to support the work
that people are doing atthe end of every episode.
And we hope that you'll feelinspired to get involved.
- It's exciting.
So thank you so much for joiningus for this first episode
of A New Legacy. Our nextepisode will be a conversation
with Tinisch Hollins, who isthe executive director for
(21:19):
Californians for safety and justice.
Tinisch has been instrumentalin passing some very important
reforms on the ballot overthe past several years.
And, I can categorically saythat our conversation with
Tinisch changed my life.
- Yeah.
Her voice and her story is onethat I believe urgently needs
to be heard. So please tune in for that.
(21:40):
And in the meantime,
if you'd like to learnmore about our work,
check out our website,
anewlegacy.com.
And we'll talk to you next time.
(soft music playing)
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