October 21, 2022 • 48 mins
Restorative Justice has been coming more into the forefront of the conversation around alternatives to a punitive approach to crime and violence, but there seem to be a lot of different ideas and misconceptions around what restorative justice is, who it’s for, how it works, and whether forgiveness is a necessary part of the process. In this episode, we speak to sonya shah, who has decades of experience as a restorative justice facilitator in communities and prisons to support victims and meaningfully address harm. In this conversation, we get personal about why we’ve felt resistant to RJ in the past and we learn a great deal from sonya about VODs (Victim-Offender Dialogues), how RJ centers the needs of survivors, and where it fits into the wide array of solutions we need for safety, healing, and accountability.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- Hello and welcomeback to "A New Legacy."
On this podcast, we have conversations
with community leaders at the forefront
of creating alternativeavenues for safety, healing,
and accountability to help lead us out
of this crisis of mass incarceration.
- Yeah, it's been a whilesince we put out an episode
as we've both been working
on some cool justice-related projects,
(00:22):
but we're happy to be backto offer this conversation
with sonya shah about restorative justice.
- Yeah, so I'll read somequick information about sonya
to help ground the conversation
and then we'll just dive right in.
sonya shah initiated theAhimsa Collective in 2016,
which works both withsurvivors impacted by violence
(00:43):
and people who havecommitted acts of violence
with the goal of addressing harm
by replacing systems of punishment
with paradigms grounded in healing.
Their work engages deep trauma healing
and restorative approacheswhile centering agency,
liberation, dignity, transformation,
and anti-oppression practices.
sonya is also an associate professor
(01:03):
at the California Instituteof Integral Studies.
Central to her core values are nurturing,
community belonging andcollective care, healing,
compassion, love, and transforming harm.
She is a Buddhist and afirst-generation immigrant
from the Northwestern part of India.
(warm instrumental music)
- Hey.- Hi, sonya.
(01:25):
- How are you?- Great.
You know, maybe I'll kick it off
before I introduce the two of you
because I'm really the onewho wanted this conversation
between the three of us.
sonya, you and I met maybefive or six months ago,
and I got to ask youall sorts of questions
about restorative justice
and the organization that you work with
(01:45):
and what you shared at thatpoint really resonated with me
to the extent that I evenjoined a survivor group, right?
A victim offender dialogue survivor group
that is part of your organization.
And so I've been in that groupnow for maybe five months
meeting once a month, and I can share more
(02:06):
about my personal experienceof that at some point.
But I will just first sayit's been really amazing.
So I've wanted you and Annie to meet
and to give her an opportunityto ask you questions
and to really get whatrestorative justice is.
So I'm excited to introducethe two of you, sonya, Annie.
(02:27):
- Annie.(participants laughing)
- It's nice to meet you.
- Yeah, same here.- Yeah.
- It's kind of nice in a way, you know,
to be the new studentsitting at the table.
And Jess, you have a bitmore experience than I do,
but obviously sonya, your experience
is much more expansive than ours,
and there's so much I'mexcited to learn from you.
(02:47):
- That's great. No, excitedfor the conversation, too.
- Yeah, and we wannaget really an overview
of restorative justice, you know,
and the impact that it has primarily.
But we also actually havesome tougher questions,
and usually we have theserecorded conversations
with the hope that other people
(03:08):
are gonna be interestedin listening, you know,
and kind of educating alot of, like other people.
But this conversation's alittle more personal for us
so I think we're gonnabe a little more selfish.
And it feels like we'regoing out on a limb
in recording this conversation
so I just wanna acknowledge that.
You know, it's a littlemore vulnerable for us
'cause it's more personal.
(03:29):
- Mm-hmm.- Yeah, that's fair.
- So thank you for being willing
to engage with all that we've got.
- That sounds great. Yeah, no worries.
Be as tough or annoyed as you want to be.
(Jess and Annie laughing)It's all good.
It's all good.- We'll take that permission.
- I have some critiques ofrestorative justice myself, yeah.
- Great. That sounds interesting.
(03:51):
Maybe before we get there,Ann, would you like to first?
- Yeah, definitely.
You know, I guess the first question is,
could you give us an overviewof what restorative justice is
for a newbie like me?
For anyone listening whomaybe has heard the term
but doesn't totally understandwhat it encompasses,
what it's intended for.
Maybe we just start there.
- Yeah, I think to understandrestorative justice
(04:13):
is to put it in context of this really,
this much bigger idea of people,communities, organizations,
movements trying to createan alternative approach
to addressing harm, to healing harm,
to dealing with conflict
that's outside of a criminallegal system or isn't dependent
(04:34):
on like a prison-industrialcomplex, right?
So in its greatest essence,it sits in that space
of trying to be analternative to addressing harm
that's really rooted in community.
It's meant to be, you know,
really centered around not outsourcing.
Like when a harm happens, not saying,
(04:54):
"Hey, let's just give itto the state to deal with"
because the state is automatically
gonna go towards punishing.
The state isn't necessarilyfor the benefits of survivors.
Many survivors just feel traumatized
by the criminal legal system.
There's not a lot of questions
about what you want or what you need.
And the state tends to takethe person who's done harm,
(05:16):
put them in a prison and, you know,
has kind of incredibly strongpunishment-based system
that isn't asking, what happened?
How do you change?
How do we make sure thisdoesn't happen again?
So the essence of restorativejustice is to say,
what about those thingsnot happening, right?
How about we ask victimsand survivors what they want
(05:37):
and be survivor-focused?
How about we get curious and want to know
who this person is who's done harm?
How do we address that?
How do we understand the causes
or the cause of why they committed a harm?
And that it's partly thecommunity's responsibility
to be involved in that conversation.
It's not something thatshould happen, you know,
in a prison setting and in a courtroom.
(05:59):
That is, I would say, theessence of restorative justice,
transformative justice,and indigenous peacemaking.
I would throw those in there as well.
- I'd love to hear specificallywhat your group does, sonya,
and also, you know, this idea,
the VOD, the Victim-Offender Dialogue.
I'd be curious to knowmore about what that is,
what that looks like.- Sure.
(06:19):
So I can speak to bothmy version and the VOD
and our organization as well.
I think one thing that'simportant is like RJ,
and I'm using RJ forrestorative justice, right?
It's not a panacea.
It's not meant to doeverything for everybody.
It's one strategy toapproach a kind of healing,
safety harm conversation.
(06:41):
Like, we need everything.We need policy change.
We need structural change.
We need all those thingsto happen actually even
for restorative justiceto be successful, right?
So we don't have a systemright now where, you know,
there's no where for anyone to go.
If something happens that'sa pretty serious harm,
we can't just be like, oh,let's just go do some RJ
(07:01):
and hope that this personnever does anything again,
you know, and just be like, oh yeah,
everybody go back to their their homes
because that doesn'tkeep the survivors safe
and it doesn't necessarily doanything to address the issue.
So we're not, our societyisn't set up in such a way
that we can actuallyuse restorative justice
to its greatest potential.
So when you look at other places,
(07:23):
I know people talk aboutNorway or other places
that have maybe a gentlerway of thinking about,
what does time away look like?
Or what does it mean toactually be away from your space
so that you get time tounderstand what you've done
and a survivor gets time tobe away from you and be like,
this isn't safe to be around this.
I say that because I thinkit's really important
(07:44):
to put RJ in the context ofmuch bigger social understanding
of social context and like where we are.
In this whole swim of restorative justice,
there are so many different kinds
of restorative justice processes.
So the Victim-Offender Dialogue or VOD,
because the name is super problematic,
is one of the many restorativejustice processes that exist.
(08:09):
- Why is the name problematic there?
I mean, something aboutvictim and offender, I-
- Yeah, yeah.- Yeah.
- So the idea around particularly offender
that it traps people in an identity
of only being somebodywho did a crime, right?
And that this person is waymore than just the worst thing
that they've ever done in their lives.
- It's probably true ofthe victim too, right?
(08:31):
Like that you don't wanna just be reduced
to the thing that happened to you.
- That's right.
Some people actuallylike to be called victims
and some people liketo be called survivors.
Some people like to becalled transcenders.
If we go with the same theory
that you're not just the worst thing
that ever happened to you,
then we might say personwho was harmed, right?
Harmed party, responsible party.
So, you know, if I had my way,
(08:52):
we would change thename to something else.
Face-to-face dialogues, you know,
something that just captures
what it is as opposed tolike a identity trapping
so that's where that name issue comes in.
- Okay, so you call it a VOD.- We just call it a VOD
because the nameVictim-Offender Dialogue or VOD
has been nationally recognized,and it's a little too late
(09:15):
to just change it and have anybody know
what you're talking about.
So I think the VOD tendsto have this kind of like,
when people think aboutrestorative justice
or alternative process of addressing harm,
when you're first learning about it,
it's oh, the thing thateverybody thinks about is yes,
it's that dialogue betweenthe person that did harm
and the person that was harmed,
and they have this incredible moment.
(09:36):
And you know, that's whatrestorative justice is, right?
So it does have this kindof capturing like an essence
of what RJ is, but I wouldsay eight times out of 10,
people who initiateVODs it doesn't happen.
Usually there's only about two out of 10
that actually go throughto the final dialogue
because so many things have to be in place
in order for two people whohave done their work enough
(10:00):
to come together to have one
of the most difficult conversationsof their entire lives.
- Wow.- For a survivor,
it's probably a range of goingthrough an incredible amount
of emotion and grief andloss and anger and timing
and dealing with your family members
that might disagree with youand so many things, right?
(10:21):
To sort of get to the point
that might be somethingthat you want to do.
And for the personwho's done harm, I mean,
it's incredible really working with shame,
becoming accountable, working through all
of their own things to be able
to articulate why they committed a harm,
which takes a while to get to, right,
when you're really notminimizing, not denying,
(10:43):
not in a shame spiral, notjust trying to get away
from facing the thing.
And so whether there's a desireor not for that to happen,
oftentimes it does happenand oftentimes it doesn't
because people aren't quiteready to go through with it.
But VOD, for example, isalways survivor-initiated.
(11:04):
It's not initiated by theperson who's done harm.
It's something that at any point
anyone can say, you know what?
This isn't right forme. It's 100% voluntary.
We don't coerce anyone to do anything.
It's not for berating andlike putting someone down,
but it is okay to expressincredible rage and anger.
(11:24):
I had a VOD I did once where,I always remember this moment
where the person who was a survivor.
It was child sexual abuse.
She was abused by her familymember for many years.
He was incarcerated.
And, you know, it was really huge for her
to get to the point whereshe was gonna face him,
and she was really angry.
(11:45):
And every once in a while
when we were doing our prepmeetings, she would say,
(sighs) "Is it okay if likein the middle of the VOD
I just reach across the table
and smack the shit out of him?"
And we would all just,me and my co-facilitator
would just start laughing.
And I said, "Oh yeah, youknow, you can't do that."
But I was like, "But you can think it.
You can think it and you can even tell him
(12:06):
that this is how I feel.
This is how angry I am.
This is how much you'vetaken away from me."
So all of those expressionsare a part of a VOD,
and it's really also about,what is in it for you?
What are you going in it for,
and what do you want for yourself?
What do you want for your family?
What do you want for your healing?
What do you want for your life?
Hopefully, particularly forsurvivors, it's about you.
(12:28):
It's about what's in yourlife and what's the journey
that you're on and is this something
that is a part of your journey or not?
- I'm curious how it's going so far,
Annie, to hear about it.
- Yeah, it's just likesparking more questions.
Lots of thoughts and lots of questions.
And maybe before we get intokind of the harder questions,
I'm curious to know, what doesa successful VOD look like?
(12:52):
What are the successstories that jump to mind
that show kind of the fullest potential
of how restorative justice can work?
- Yeah, no, that's such a great question.
I think that success is really determined
mainly by the survivor and what they want
and also by the person who's done harm
being able to be clearabout what they want
(13:12):
and how to meet also theneeds of the survivor.
So I would say it's really dependent
on the person more than anything else.
I'll say this is true in my conversations,
but also it's true acrossthe board and the research
is that most people want to know why.
They want to ask specific questions
that only the person thatdid the harm can answer.
(13:33):
They want to express anger and grief
and rage, sadness, loss.
They want to let the personknow what it's been like
for 20 years for them.
Really you need to hearthis, look me in the eye.
You need to hear the thingsthat I have to say to you.
Some folks are also ina place of forgiveness.
It's not necessary, butthat's what comes out.
(13:54):
I think it offers clarity.
I think it's offered alot of healing of like,
people who have searched different ways
to make meaning out ofincredible suffering and loss
finding a new level of meaning or healing
or another piece in thejourney of the incredible loss.
And so I think that's whatI've heard the most as success.
(14:16):
And I think for a person who's done harm,
it's really their moment toshow up with accountability.
It's really a moment to showup without making excuses,
without minimizing, withoutlike, finding a way out,
really addressing aincredible amount of shame
and seeing how truth can betranscendent for them as well.
(14:40):
What happens when we tellthe real truth of something?
How does that liberate
on a more kind of personal spiritual way?
Not so much in termsof being incarcerated.
- Do you mean like thetruth of my experience
of what that was like?
Whether it's the personwho caused the harm
or the person who washarmed telling the truth.
(15:00):
- Telling the truth. I didthis or I killed your mother.
I raped this person.
Imagine someone who's done harmactually saying those words
actually having to hear the impact of that
and being able to tell the truth about it
and not dive and duck.
- Yeah, it's kind of intense.
I mean even hearing youjust say, "Yeah, I did that.
I killed your mother."
(15:21):
You know, are people enteringinto VODs with the person
who has actually committedhomicide of a family member?
Is that, I imagine they do,
but that seems incrediblytricky and challenging.
- It tends to be.
(15:42):
So there are not that manypeople who reach out to do VODs.
Partly it's because peopledon't know about it, you know?
Or they don't know that it exists.
Partly it's becauseit's so hard and tricky,
and maybe it's just not thething that you want to do.
But I would say that morethan half of the survivors
who reach out are murdervictim family members
(16:04):
so they're homicide victim family members,
so mothers, siblings, children.
Mothers, siblings, andchildren tend to be direct kin.
There's a lot of reaching out in that way.
- Yeah, and for us, there'san elephant in the room here
for the two of us around, wouldwe ever engage a VOD process
with the man who killed Polly?
(16:26):
And my answer is no.
There's just no, no way.
But I do support the idea ofrestorative justice in general.
You know, and I'm wonderingif you could maybe speak
to when is it not appropriate
or this is just a very challengingpart of the conversation
of like the elephant in the room for us.
It cuts pretty close to the bone,
(16:48):
you know, it's pretty personal.
- Absolutely. It's notappropriate if you don't want to.
That's the end of the story.- Uh-huh.
- All a VOD is, it's anotheravenue for those who want it.
It's not coercive. It's nottelling you, you should do it.
It's not saying that yousuck at restorative justice
if you don't do a VOD.
No, it's just saying,hey, we want to provide
(17:12):
as many avenues for healingand accountability as possible.
And if so, if you choose so as a victim,
as a survivor, here's one.
You know, yours tochoose or not to choose.
No pressure, no nothing.
And honoring that victims areallowed to feel everything
under the spectrum fromadvocating for the death penalty
(17:34):
to having woken up inspontaneous forgiveness.
And I have met both types of survivors
and everything in betweenand people who've changed,
gone from one place to the other.
So it's a really true moment
of meeting people where they are.
And there's no need if it'snot gonna serve you, you know?
And that's the answer.
(17:55):
And nobody should makeyou feel bad about it.
And then you can still say,
I'm really glad it's therefor people who want it
because it's broughtthem something and yay.
And maybe vicariouslywhen I hear them talk,
I get something out of it.
I learn something more aboutmyself and that's enough.
It doesn't have to be more than that.
- Yeah, it is so interesting.
I think I feel some relief knowing
that this isn't necessarilya one-size-fits-all approach
(18:17):
and that everyone heals differently
and everyone's needs are different.
And even that forgiveness
isn't necessarily the intended outcome.
It's just a possibility.
And I think that this is a place
where Jess and I have beentalking a lot lately actually
about the idea of forgiveness
as something that's virtuous, right?
To be someone who's capable of forgiving.
(18:39):
It's almost, I think in certain framings
it can almost be a little problematic
in terms of people wantingto forgive, you know,
as evidence of them beingmore evolved or something.
It's like, there's a lot ofways in which I think that word
gets so loaded and it's so tricky
because forgiveness doesn't undo the harm.
You know, it wouldn'tbring our sister back.
(19:00):
And I appreciate youacknowledging just the complexity
of our position where it'slike we're really wanting
to lift up these other modelsfor justice and healing
and yet this is one that, you know,
maybe we wouldn't actuallybe able to participate in
just because like you, Idon't feel that forgiveness
or redemption would be appropriatein this case or possible.
(19:23):
So my question was sort of about
when this process becomesmessy, when it goes sideways,
when it doesn't bring someone
what it is that they're looking for,
how do you navigate that as a facilitator?
- Yeah, for sure. Definitelya messy side to the process.
I wanted to say something just to validate
what you're saying about,you know, doing this work.
(19:45):
Like if somebody killedmy child, I have to,
I don't know or thinkI'd be able to do a VOD.
I don't, you know, I really,I'd be like, oh hell no.
Like I would be there.
And I'm in this work, you know,
as a champion of it and I'm like, "Ugh."
And so there are, Icompletely agree with you
that there's all theselike, unconscious conscious,
(20:05):
like culturally sort of intimidating ways
that people associate forgivenesswith enlightenment, right?
But I think it's really important
to bust that narrative a bit down
and really not ascribe anykind of higher transcendence
to like, something versus the other.
It just is what it isand we are where we are.
(20:25):
And you can think of yourwork, your justice-based work
or your activist work asa kind of enlightenment
that is different from this, right?
Somebody else isn't gonnatake it on a structural level.
Other people are.
You know, I just feellike there's so many ways
for us to find ourspecific intervention space
and do what's vulnerable andhard because that feels right.
(20:47):
So I just wanted to say that.
In terms of the messiness, myexperience has been, you know,
a real messy place is like,there's like the perfect VOD
where everyone's like, readyand you know, able to go there.
And then there's the onewhere one party isn't.
And that's difficult, right?
Like I've tended to do more ofthe VODs around sexual harm.
(21:08):
There's a trickiness to beingdirectly sexually abused
and then facing that person
and the kind of levels ofcontrol that are present
and the levels of fear that are present.
They're different. They'rereally just different.
Everything's different,homicide, sexual harm.
And when the violation hasbeen so intimate, you know,
I think there's just somuch PTSD that I've noticed
(21:30):
that really surfaces, andI've had a few situations
where these survivors wereready to do this dialogue
and I was like, incredibly courageous
to decide that they want to talk.
You know, one was a child sexual abuse,
the other one was a rape.
And both of the people who've done harm
(21:52):
were just not accountable,you know, could not get there.
And it was heartbreakingfor me and devastating.
It's like, do you know what it means
that this person actuallywants to like, talk to you?
One of them was completely unaccountable.
Another one was likea half accountability.
And that was very trickybecause as a facilitator
we don't want to, if peoplewant to talk, it's up to them
(22:17):
and we want to support aprocess no matter what.
So we just be incrediblytransparent with the survivor
of like, hey, this iswhere this person is at.
You might not get a full accountability.
You might get a half one.
Do you still want to go through with it?
Here are the kinds of thingsyou might come up against.
Here are the things, kinds ofthings that they might say.
What happens if you hear this?
(22:38):
How are you gonna feel ifthey deny that this happened?
And so it's getting intothe nuances of like,
as you learn what people are like,
being able to reallyprepare the other side
without giving away thestory because the story
is for each other to tell,
but without sort of thecontent information.
I might pick up specific things and say,
(22:59):
"What happens if the person, you know,
really can be accountable to the fact
that they did this toyou but doesn't remember
some of the events in the same way?
How are you gonna feel about that?
What happens if that comesup and you ask a question
and they kind of are like dodging,
and I'm telling you this might happen.
So do you think that this is something
(23:21):
you still wanna go through withknowing that could happen?"
So then it's just levelsof transparency, right?
I'm just gonna tell youexactly what you can expect
and you get to decide still ifyou wanna be in this or not.
So I would say that is apretty big messy thing.
And then I think the last thing
is really about familymembers, other family members.
So you start doing this process.
(23:42):
Maybe it takes a yearor two years, whatever.
And your family's hearing about it, right?
And then it's like, somepeople have have feels.
They have thoughts. They have opinions.
They might want to be involved.
They might not want to be involved.
They might be annoyed withyou or angry with you.
And depending on your relationshipto that family member,
you might also be navigatingreally tricky waters.
(24:05):
It's like, I've heardthat from other people
about when other peoplestart getting involved
and folks want to take care of each other,
like the victim wants to takecare of the other victims
and so maybe we should bring them in,
but then it's not reallymy dialogue anymore
and everyone's in a different place
and so that's also pretty tricky.
- Boy, I, just hearing you speak, sonya,
with the degree of care that's being taken
(24:27):
at the different steps in acknowledging
like what's true on either side
and being the liaison, right?
And okay, well this might come up
and are you ready for this?
And what if this comes up?
And okay, family members
and it's like looking at the whole picture
and facilitating that process.
Like, it seems like, I mean,
(24:49):
the word that's coming up, it's silly,
but it's like some bigadulting that you're doing.
There's like, wow, that's a lot
to hold in the process, right?
There's really so many pieces to it.
- Yeah, I can imaginethat as a facilitator,
the capacities that you must have
and all that you must beable to hold, like Jess said,
(25:10):
I imagine it's taken a lot of practice
and a lot of experience to get there.
- Yeah, and so much of it in the beginning
is just about creatingtrust and relationship
mainly with the victims, you know?
It's a big deal for someoneto go on this journey
and then to do it withyou and to trust you
and to trust each other.
And I mean, honestly Ithink part of the reason
(25:31):
it takes time is becausethere has to be that trust
and depth of relationshipbetween the facilitators
and the victims in particular,you know, to feel comfortable
going into the messy spaceswhen the difficulty comes.
Trying to really be inthat space with each other.
But you know, I also, I gain so much
(25:51):
just from being with peoplein their own journey.
We all do on the facilitator side.
- I'm curious, Jess, sinceyou've been doing this work,
you've been a part of this group
for the past four, five months.
If it's okay, I'd be curious
to just hear how it's been for you
and what you've experienced
and what you've been getting out of it.
(26:13):
- Yeah, totally. Happy to share some.
When I first spoke withyou, sonya, over the summer,
I was really interestedkind of professionally.
I have a facilitation background.
I like holding a lot of complexity.
You know, I've facilitatedchallenging conversations.
(26:34):
Probably you recall I wassharing more about like,
I'm professionally interested in this.
It's true restorative justicehas this buzz term, right?
A lot of people are talkingabout it and I felt, you know,
you invited me into also the possibility
of being a part of it formy own personal experience.
(26:55):
I acknowledged that, too.
Like I'm a survivor. Like, I'm a victim.
There's a power inacknowledging that, actually.
Like okay, and is theresomething for me personally here?
And even though I have nointerest in engaging a VOD process
with the man who killed Polly,
I'm interested insomething else for myself,
(27:18):
and being a part of thisgroup has given me something
that's been really precious, actually.
You know, Annie, it's like thistime that we've been engaged
in all these conversations,I haven't really had a place
to share with othersurvivors about my process
(27:40):
especially as we're steppingup into more advocacy work,
like being able to have aplace to share about that
with other people that kind of understand.
Most of the people inthis group that I'm in,
they've lost a loved one to homicide.
And I had never been in a group like that.
And even though circumstancesare very different,
(28:03):
it feels like a place of belonging.
There's a couple highlightmoments in my very first meeting
toward the end of the time.
It's a two-hour group over Zoom,
and toward the end of the time
we're basically in our checkout rounds.
And this woman looks at me and she says,
"I just wanna ask you,like, are you doing okay?"
And there's something aboutthe sincerity of her question.
(28:28):
I think people ask eachother all the time,
like, "How are you?"
It's not like a reallike, "I actually care.
Like, how are you?"
In that moment, I actuallywas brought to tears
because it was just genuine,
and I feel that in thesegroups, like the care.
The point of us being thereis just to connect and share
like, from our hearts whatever is true,
(28:50):
and I'm getting to know these people.
I have my facilitator hat on sometimes
and I could say from the facilitator hat,
I can tell what kind ofinterventions are coming in,
what the facilitatorsare doing in terms of
what they'll invite theparticipant like me into or to do.
And the thing that constantlyseems to be the intervention
(29:12):
is for the group member toshare what their feelings are.
This is happening in yourlife, but how are you doing?
How are you feeling?
You know, when you say allthese things like, how are you?
And it's really, it's so simple.
There's a real simplicity toit, but it's very humanizing.
I feel very much we'rehumaning in a good way,
(29:33):
you know, as survivors together.
So yeah, even though I neverwill engage in a process,
I don't believe in that kind of process,
there's still so much to experience
and to be gained by being a part of it.
- I like that word humaning.I mean, it's interesting.
That does make me feel a little bit more,
(29:55):
oh, what would that be like?
The truth is that of course trauma
can be really alienating, right?
And I've never sat ina room full of people
where other people had
that same shared experience that I do.
And you know, in factmost of my experiences
of talking about it with people,I often end up in the role
of trying to make them feel better
(30:15):
because it's so upsettingfor them to hear about,
so I end up comforting them.
It is really strikingjust hearing that moment
where you get to be on thereceiving end of that care
with someone who does understand,and that's really lovely.
And it's also nice to see like, okay,
even if you know the VODprocess wouldn't be appropriate
for me or for us inour specific situation,
(30:38):
there's still something for us here,
and there's somethingreally beautiful about that.
- Definitely, yeah.
And I hear about otherpeople's VOD process
and the things that they're going through,
and I feel so privileged
to get to have a littlewindow into what it's like.
Wow, that's what you'redealing with right now?
There's so much that comesup when you lose a loved one
(31:00):
from the media attention.
Like other people have had media attention
to varying degrees and whatdo they wanna do with it,
and is it going to pointthem in a certain direction
with where they put attention
or what's their relationshipwith their family?
You know, there's so many complexities,
and I definitely feel less alone.
- Yeah, I mean, only people
that have those sharedexperiences know certain things
(31:22):
that the rest of us don't know.
I think that's true in any group.
It's ugh, I don't have toexplain, I don't have to teach.
I don't have to make you feelbetter. I can just show up.
And I think this idea of survivor groups
is another avenue, right?
Just, there's the VOD.
We're talking about,what are all the avenues?
And there should be so many more of them.
You know, what should beresourced are all of these avenues
(31:45):
that help assist survivorsgo where they want to go,
including resources, right?
Including compensation,including support groups,
including PTSD services, including VODs.
There's so many different areas
that need to be way moreaccessible, way more out there.
I think they're so few and far between.
(32:07):
- Yeah, I had no idea that this existed.
It's like you reallygotta look for something
to have it show up often.- Yeah.
- I mean, I think the general approach
that we are trying to take on this podcast
is recognizing how manyalternatives there are
and how many different avenues are needed
to allow people to haveaccountability, to find healing,
(32:28):
to receive the support they need
to actually make communities safer.
And these all feel likeequally important parts
of this larger constellationof things that are needed
so that we aren't just relying exclusively
on incarceration and punishment.
(soft instrumental music)
- So I am interested ingoing back to this piece
(32:50):
you said early on, sonya,
when you said that youhave some critiques of RJ
if you're willing to sharesome of those with us.
- Yeah, I think we reallyhave to examine the structures
that don't allow alternativesto actually exist.
And I think that's why we need
all of this big policy direct action work.
(33:11):
Like, if we can create somespaces for this work to happen,
then what kind of success could we see?
Which might take time.
So we've been talking about,
if there was one thingI would love to see,
'cause we're trying todo a lot of kind of RJ
in the community where people,
we pretty much take everybody's call,
(33:32):
anybody who reaches out to uswho doesn't want to trigger
the criminal legal system andwe try to see what we can do,
and it's really difficultto convince somebody
who's done harm to come forward and talk
if their lawyer is telling them,
"Don't say a damn thing," right?
That's like the stupidestthing you could ever do
(33:53):
so we're stuck in an adversarial system
that doesn't even give an avenue
for us to sort of thinkabout how to do this.
Why is that so hard to do?
So it gives people, survivors,victims who are like,
"I don't wanna call the police.
I actually don't wanna call them.
I do want this person tobe accountable," you know?
But they're not gonna show up
(34:13):
because there's always a threatthat person can go to jail
if the survivor changes their mind.
What if there was some kind of protection?
It doesn't seem impossible todo stuff like that in my mind.
It's like, why don't we have that?
To me that's the critique.
My critique is more ofaround the social structures
that don't allow this work to happen.
It's an interesting thing tosee how restorative justice
(34:36):
is formed in different places.
So you go to cities likeNew York or the Bay Area,
and the birth of restorativejustice in the Bay Area
is very much intertwinedwith racial justice with,
Fania Davis is one oflike, the grandmothers
or mothers of restorative justicehere, and her organization
is Restorative Justice for Oakland Youth.
It's very African-centered.
And like, there was nopart of doing this work
(34:57):
that wasn't also about understanding
the disproportionateincarceration of people of color,
specifically Black folks.- Right.
- In the Bay area, that'strue. In New York, that's true.
But you go to a rural area
or you go to even, not even a rural area,
you go to other citiesand there's not enough
of a racial justice analysis integration
(35:18):
with some restorative justicefolks and practitioners.
And somebody I workedwith used to say like,
"If you're just lookingat the fight in the school
between this Black kid and the white kid
and saying the Black kidhas to be accountable
and the white kid, you'remissing the whole context."
Like it's about the school.
It's about how everybody's treated,
it's about understanding the system.
And then of course there's someinterpersonal accountability
(35:41):
as well, but some RJ people
that don't have racialjustice thinking or analysis
go into it and all theysee is the micro moment
without the context of harm, oppression
and like, inequity around it.
And I think that's been a big problem
in the restorative justice community.
And then I think the thirdthing is just this way
that people can callanything restorative justice
(36:01):
and get away with it.
It's just like, oh yeah,you know we're doing RJ,
but we're locking people up.
It's just like, no, that'snot what it is, you know?
And it causes great confusion.
People get confused and don't understand
and then it just feels misunderstood.
So I think those are my biggest critiques.
- Yeah, it seems like at its core, though,
(36:24):
in terms of the process,
those are a little bitmore systemic critiques
that have it be that RJ isn'tflourishing as it could,
but that really at the heartof it, it's a good thing.
- Yeah, I mean it's kind oflike if you took wellness
and you said, "Choose yoga or acupuncture
(36:46):
or massage therapy."
You choose the modalitythat works for you, right?
Yoga doesn't work for everybody
and neither does acupuncture
like AA doesn't work foreverybody, it's just an option.
Choose your wellness strategy, right?
And at its core, people wholike doing yoga, it's great.
I think it's the same thing here.
It's, hey, here's an optionif this works for you,
(37:06):
and if it doesn't, that's cool.
There's so many other wayswe can get to healing.
There are other ways wecan get to accountability.
It doesn't have to be thisone, but here's one, you know?
So I think I think of it like that.
Like, can we just see it as an option,
not as like the strategy, you know,
to end all incarceration?
It's just an option.
- Could it also be a strategy?
(37:28):
Like I can imagine a VODhappening where the person
who did the harm is stillincarcerated, right?
You work with people like that
that are still incarcerated, right?
And maybe they get up forparole and maybe even the person
who was harmed through theprocess of reconnection ends up
(37:52):
finding connection and seeingthe humanity and all of that
and is even potentiallypart of the parole process.
Could it be on the part ofthe person who caused harm,
who's incarcerated to actuallybe a part of the process
with their own agenda ofgetting out of prison?
Do you ever see thatkind of thing happening?
(38:13):
- Yeah, I mean it's such aninteresting thing, right?
Like, I'm trying to think abouteven when we've done groups
in prison, some people are just there
to get the chrono, right?
Like they're just there tocheck off a box and say,
"Hey, you know, if I did this group,
I know it's gonna look goodon my resume" kind of thing.
But there is a reality that that's nice,
(38:34):
that's cool, that's how you started.
Good luck getting through this whole thing
because it's a process ofgetting deep and going raw
and like getting intoyour shame and getting...
There's a place where at somepoint you can't hide anymore.
It's not gonna happen.
And you could go through themotions and in a program,
for example, you could get a chrono,
but it's not gonna mean anything
(38:55):
if you can't sit in theboardroom and articulate.
- What's a chrono?
- Oh you can get like a certificate,
you know, that you completed something.
But you're gonna sit in frontof a bunch of commissioners.
It's like the articulationis the last thing.
I used to bug out whenI was going into prisons
and I would hear peopletry to be accountable
for the harm they caused.
And I was like, "God, ifthey just said it like this,
(39:15):
it would sound so much better."
In my mind. I never said that out loud.
But I was like, "Why is this person?"
And then I realized, oh, beingable to truly articulate it
is probably like thelast thing that happens.
You actually have to like,understand your own stuff,
go through the cause of why I did it,
understand your own trauma,
understand like, howit relates to violence
and then the articulationstarts to come out.
So I think it's similarto the VOD thing like,
(39:38):
that's nice that you couldget into a room, but you know,
if you're a year or twoyears into something
and the facilitatorsdon't feel like you can...
We're not hearing anyaccountability because it's like,
you're having to lookthis person in the eye
and hear for hours and talk for hours
about the thing that happened,it'd be really hard to do.
(39:59):
I can imagine that it is inthe back of some folks's mind.
Oh, this will look good on my resume.
Honestly, when is it notin the back of my mind?
Oh, this will be goodfor me in these ways.
So is that wrong to thinkthat? It might be there.
I don't think it wouldactually go through.
(warm instrumental music)
- I wanna go back toforgiveness if we could
because I think that restorative justice
(40:21):
has a reputation of like love and lighters
that are just somehow gonna, what is it?
Is the forgiveness even real?
Or they're like, it's justifyingthe behavior of the person
or I just think that thiswhole piece of forgiveness
is so charged, and I think a lot of people
(40:45):
would want to avoid restorativejustice or anything like it
because it's got this sortof association of forgiveness
and it's not grounded inreality or something like that
even though I know thatpeople, as you said,
they have spontaneousexperiences of forgiveness.
I guess I'm just like,I wanna go back to that
'cause I don't really know.
I don't know how forgiveness happens.
(41:06):
And then you say that it'snot required to forgive
to be a part of this at all.
And yet it seems like ithas such an association
with forgiveness somehow.
So do you share that perception of like,
(41:26):
how it is that people thinkof restorative justice?
- Yeah, and maybe not so muchjust because I'm in it a lot
and I don't see a lot of of forgiveness,
to be quite honest with you.
- Okay, (laughs) that's good to know.
- That's interesting, wow.
- Yeah, I think a lot of expression.
I think forgiveness is reallycomplicated and tricky,
and it's nobody's job to tellanybody else where it lands
(41:46):
or if they should or shouldn't,
but that's also coming fromsomeone who's in it a lot.
I feel like because RJ islike one of the very few areas
where we actually ask survivorslike, "How are you doing?"
And "Hey, we care."
Everything gets loadedon this process, right?
But you must be about forgivenessor, I'm not about that.
(42:09):
We're not trying to sayit's one or the other.
We're not trying to saybe angry or forgive.
We're just trying tosay, here's a process.
- They totally make sense.
I think that it's laudedin some ways similarly
to how it can be vilified,which is really actually removed
from the context in whichit's intended to function.
And it's been so useful toreally get a deeper cut of that
(42:29):
and to really understandthat justice doesn't mean
forgiveness is better than punishment.
Restorative justice doesn'tmean fill in the blank.
It's really one way of many
that people can come to find some healing,
can hopefully create accountability.
- There needs to be a lotmore out there for survivors.
There needs to be a lot more understanding
(42:51):
of just what that experienceis, you know, what it means
10 years, five years, 15,20 years down the line
in order to us to get to a place
where it feels like it's even palatable
to talk about forgiveness on a mass scale.
Like, why are we even talking about that?
There's so many other things
that we need to talk aboutfirst before we get there.
You want to race to the endproduct, but the end product is,
(43:12):
you know, skipping how everybodyfeels, and that's not okay.
That's not okay.
- And maybe 20 yearsof process to get there
or however long, you know?- Right.
Yeah, that resonates with mea lot because just personally,
some of the core values that I really hold
are being emotionallyand intellectually honest
and also really rigorous andnot bypassing what is needed
(43:35):
in order to forgive orwhatever the thing is
because that may or may notbe the right goal for you.
That may or may not beyour path to healing,
and you can't skip over things
that will actually get you there.
I love that's somethingthat restorative justice
is really built around, it seems like,
and that that is whatthe process is coming to,
what is right for you.
- Yeah, but it doesn'tchange the perception
(43:57):
of RJ as forgiveness, right?
- Or letting people off the hook.
- Letting people off thehook or love and roses,
whatever you said that thing about just,
oh yeah, light a candle in love.
It doesn't stop that perception,
and it's because our sort of culture
is very black and white thinking.
It's either like prisonor like love and candles.
There's no gray area nuance in there
(44:17):
that we're kind of used to talking about.
- Yeah, hopefully we broughta little bit of that in today.
- Yeah.
- Hopefully we broughtsome gray in. (laughs)
- Complex. There's a lot of complexity.
- sonya, tell us what's needed
for your organization at this point.
You know, what do you seeis needed for California?
And then also, how canpeople get involved?
(44:37):
- For California, it's thesupport for really good work
happening with different organizations,
like really robust support for them,
whatever that looks likewhether it's volunteering,
resources, whether it's opening doors,
whether it's just being acheerleader from the outside.
So I think the support for the work,
and then I think we need somebig social structure work.
(44:58):
You know, big policy change work is like,
none of this is gonna happen without that.
One of the things thatwe're really committed to
is getting back to people.
So we hyper-vigilantly check our contact
at ahimsacollective.net andI think if you're curious
about the work, if you'reinterested in a VOD,
if you just want to know more,
(45:18):
if you don't want to call the police
and you're trying to figureout what to do, you know,
that's the best way toget in touch with us.
And we try really hardto get back to people
and put them into theright lane, basically.
- That feels so good.
Well, thank you so much,sonya, for joining us.
I'm so happy to introduce you to Annie,
and thanks for sharing so much.
(45:40):
- Really nice to meet you, Annie.
- It was really wonderful to meet you.
And you know, I might be reaching out soon
to see what lane I might fit into.
(bright piano music)
- Okay, so that was amazing.
How was that conversation for you?
- So to be honest, thatconversation wasn't what I expected.
(46:02):
I went into it with a lotof curiosity and interest,
but I think I was expectingto feel a bit more polarized
or somehow more in opposition
to the frameworks of restorative justice
just because in our specific case,
a Victim-Offender Dialogue isn't something
that we're interested in pursuing.
But, you know, regardless of whether
(46:23):
we would personally everparticipate in a VOD,
I absolutely see the value of this work.
And it's so important that survivors
have this kind of an avenueto explore their own healing.
Since we recorded thisconversation, I've actually talked
to other survivors who haveinitiated this process.
And what I've seen is thisreally large community
(46:45):
of survivors who honestly havemore capacity for compassion
and understanding for how harm happens
than our justice system does.
And for a system thatclaims to represent people
who have been harmed,why is it that a person
who has experienced, you know,
the deepest pain of theirlives can see a clearer path
(47:06):
to redemption for theperson who harmed them
than our justice system?
- And like sonya said, thisis just one path of many,
and it may not be right foreveryone, but the point is
that it's focused on theactual needs of survivors.
It centers their healing andit enables accountability
for the person who did harm.
(47:28):
It's actually unbelievable to me
that this isn't already happening
on a larger scale in our justice system.
We really need more ofthese kinds of methods
that not only bring survivors healing,
but allow people who have hurt someone
to understand the depthof harm they caused
and take accountability for it
because that's really the kind of work
(47:49):
that causes transformation.
Thank you for listening tothis episode of "A New Legacy."
To stay in the loop,
please go to our website, anewlegacy.com.
(soft instrumental music)
- Hello and welcomeback to "A New Legacy."
On this podcast, we have conversations
with community leaders at the forefront
of creating alternativeavenues for safety, healing,
and accountability to help lead us out
of this crisis of mass incarceration.
- Yeah, it's been a whilesince we put out an episode
as we've both been working
on some cool justice-related projects,
(00:22):
but we're happy to be backto offer this conversation
with sonya shah about restorative justice.
- Yeah, so I'll read somequick information about sonya
to help ground the conversation
and then we'll just dive right in.
sonya shah initiated theAhimsa Collective in 2016,
which works both withsurvivors impacted by violence
(00:43):
and people who havecommitted acts of violence
with the goal of addressing harm
by replacing systems of punishment
with paradigms grounded in healing.
Their work engages deep trauma healing
and restorative approacheswhile centering agency,
liberation, dignity, transformation,
and anti-oppression practices.
sonya is also an associate professor
(01:03):
at the California Instituteof Integral Studies.
Central to her core values are nurturing,
community belonging andcollective care, healing,
compassion, love, and transforming harm.
She is a Buddhist and afirst-generation immigrant
from the Northwestern part of India.
(warm instrumental music)
- Hey.- Hi, sonya.
(01:25):
- How are you?- Great.
You know, maybe I'll kick it off
before I introduce the two of you
because I'm really the onewho wanted this conversation
between the three of us.
sonya, you and I met maybefive or six months ago,
and I got to ask youall sorts of questions
about restorative justice
and the organization that you work with
(01:45):
and what you shared at thatpoint really resonated with me
to the extent that I evenjoined a survivor group, right?
A victim offender dialogue survivor group
that is part of your organization.
And so I've been in that groupnow for maybe five months
meeting once a month, and I can share more
(02:06):
about my personal experienceof that at some point.
But I will just first sayit's been really amazing.
So I've wanted you and Annie to meet
and to give her an opportunityto ask you questions
and to really get whatrestorative justice is.
So I'm excited to introducethe two of you, sonya, Annie.
(02:27):
- Annie.(participants laughing)
- It's nice to meet you.
- Yeah, same here.- Yeah.
- It's kind of nice in a way, you know,
to be the new studentsitting at the table.
And Jess, you have a bitmore experience than I do,
but obviously sonya, your experience
is much more expansive than ours,
and there's so much I'mexcited to learn from you.
(02:47):
- That's great. No, excitedfor the conversation, too.
- Yeah, and we wannaget really an overview
of restorative justice, you know,
and the impact that it has primarily.
But we also actually havesome tougher questions,
and usually we have theserecorded conversations
with the hope that other people
(03:08):
are gonna be interestedin listening, you know,
and kind of educating alot of, like other people.
But this conversation's alittle more personal for us
so I think we're gonnabe a little more selfish.
And it feels like we'regoing out on a limb
in recording this conversation
so I just wanna acknowledge that.
You know, it's a littlemore vulnerable for us
'cause it's more personal.
(03:29):
- Mm-hmm.- Yeah, that's fair.
- So thank you for being willing
to engage with all that we've got.
- That sounds great. Yeah, no worries.
Be as tough or annoyed as you want to be.
(Jess and Annie laughing)It's all good.
It's all good.- We'll take that permission.
- I have some critiques ofrestorative justice myself, yeah.
- Great. That sounds interesting.
(03:51):
Maybe before we get there,Ann, would you like to first?
- Yeah, definitely.
You know, I guess the first question is,
could you give us an overviewof what restorative justice is
for a newbie like me?
For anyone listening whomaybe has heard the term
but doesn't totally understandwhat it encompasses,
what it's intended for.
Maybe we just start there.
- Yeah, I think to understandrestorative justice
(04:13):
is to put it in context of this really,
this much bigger idea of people,communities, organizations,
movements trying to createan alternative approach
to addressing harm, to healing harm,
to dealing with conflict
that's outside of a criminallegal system or isn't dependent
(04:34):
on like a prison-industrialcomplex, right?
So in its greatest essence,it sits in that space
of trying to be analternative to addressing harm
that's really rooted in community.
It's meant to be, you know,
really centered around not outsourcing.
Like when a harm happens, not saying,
(04:54):
"Hey, let's just give itto the state to deal with"
because the state is automatically
gonna go towards punishing.
The state isn't necessarilyfor the benefits of survivors.
Many survivors just feel traumatized
by the criminal legal system.
There's not a lot of questions
about what you want or what you need.
And the state tends to takethe person who's done harm,
(05:16):
put them in a prison and, you know,
has kind of incredibly strongpunishment-based system
that isn't asking, what happened?
How do you change?
How do we make sure thisdoesn't happen again?
So the essence of restorativejustice is to say,
what about those thingsnot happening, right?
How about we ask victimsand survivors what they want
(05:37):
and be survivor-focused?
How about we get curious and want to know
who this person is who's done harm?
How do we address that?
How do we understand the causes
or the cause of why they committed a harm?
And that it's partly thecommunity's responsibility
to be involved in that conversation.
It's not something thatshould happen, you know,
in a prison setting and in a courtroom.
(05:59):
That is, I would say, theessence of restorative justice,
transformative justice,and indigenous peacemaking.
I would throw those in there as well.
- I'd love to hear specificallywhat your group does, sonya,
and also, you know, this idea,
the VOD, the Victim-Offender Dialogue.
I'd be curious to knowmore about what that is,
what that looks like.- Sure.
(06:19):
So I can speak to bothmy version and the VOD
and our organization as well.
I think one thing that'simportant is like RJ,
and I'm using RJ forrestorative justice, right?
It's not a panacea.
It's not meant to doeverything for everybody.
It's one strategy toapproach a kind of healing,
safety harm conversation.
(06:41):
Like, we need everything.We need policy change.
We need structural change.
We need all those thingsto happen actually even
for restorative justiceto be successful, right?
So we don't have a systemright now where, you know,
there's no where for anyone to go.
If something happens that'sa pretty serious harm,
we can't just be like, oh,let's just go do some RJ
(07:01):
and hope that this personnever does anything again,
you know, and just be like, oh yeah,
everybody go back to their their homes
because that doesn'tkeep the survivors safe
and it doesn't necessarily doanything to address the issue.
So we're not, our societyisn't set up in such a way
that we can actuallyuse restorative justice
to its greatest potential.
So when you look at other places,
(07:23):
I know people talk aboutNorway or other places
that have maybe a gentlerway of thinking about,
what does time away look like?
Or what does it mean toactually be away from your space
so that you get time tounderstand what you've done
and a survivor gets time tobe away from you and be like,
this isn't safe to be around this.
I say that because I thinkit's really important
(07:44):
to put RJ in the context ofmuch bigger social understanding
of social context and like where we are.
In this whole swim of restorative justice,
there are so many different kinds
of restorative justice processes.
So the Victim-Offender Dialogue or VOD,
because the name is super problematic,
is one of the many restorativejustice processes that exist.
(08:09):
- Why is the name problematic there?
I mean, something aboutvictim and offender, I-
- Yeah, yeah.- Yeah.
- So the idea around particularly offender
that it traps people in an identity
of only being somebodywho did a crime, right?
And that this person is waymore than just the worst thing
that they've ever done in their lives.
- It's probably true ofthe victim too, right?
(08:31):
Like that you don't wanna just be reduced
to the thing that happened to you.
- That's right.
Some people actuallylike to be called victims
and some people liketo be called survivors.
Some people like to becalled transcenders.
If we go with the same theory
that you're not just the worst thing
that ever happened to you,
then we might say personwho was harmed, right?
Harmed party, responsible party.
So, you know, if I had my way,
(08:52):
we would change thename to something else.
Face-to-face dialogues, you know,
something that just captures
what it is as opposed tolike a identity trapping
so that's where that name issue comes in.
- Okay, so you call it a VOD.- We just call it a VOD
because the nameVictim-Offender Dialogue or VOD
has been nationally recognized,and it's a little too late
(09:15):
to just change it and have anybody know
what you're talking about.
So I think the VOD tendsto have this kind of like,
when people think aboutrestorative justice
or alternative process of addressing harm,
when you're first learning about it,
it's oh, the thing thateverybody thinks about is yes,
it's that dialogue betweenthe person that did harm
and the person that was harmed,
and they have this incredible moment.
(09:36):
And you know, that's whatrestorative justice is, right?
So it does have this kindof capturing like an essence
of what RJ is, but I wouldsay eight times out of 10,
people who initiateVODs it doesn't happen.
Usually there's only about two out of 10
that actually go throughto the final dialogue
because so many things have to be in place
in order for two people whohave done their work enough
(10:00):
to come together to have one
of the most difficult conversationsof their entire lives.
- Wow.- For a survivor,
it's probably a range of goingthrough an incredible amount
of emotion and grief andloss and anger and timing
and dealing with your family members
that might disagree with youand so many things, right?
(10:21):
To sort of get to the point
that might be somethingthat you want to do.
And for the personwho's done harm, I mean,
it's incredible really working with shame,
becoming accountable, working through all
of their own things to be able
to articulate why they committed a harm,
which takes a while to get to, right,
when you're really notminimizing, not denying,
(10:43):
not in a shame spiral, notjust trying to get away
from facing the thing.
And so whether there's a desireor not for that to happen,
oftentimes it does happenand oftentimes it doesn't
because people aren't quiteready to go through with it.
But VOD, for example, isalways survivor-initiated.
(11:04):
It's not initiated by theperson who's done harm.
It's something that at any point
anyone can say, you know what?
This isn't right forme. It's 100% voluntary.
We don't coerce anyone to do anything.
It's not for berating andlike putting someone down,
but it is okay to expressincredible rage and anger.
(11:24):
I had a VOD I did once where,I always remember this moment
where the person who was a survivor.
It was child sexual abuse.
She was abused by her familymember for many years.
He was incarcerated.
And, you know, it was really huge for her
to get to the point whereshe was gonna face him,
and she was really angry.
(11:45):
And every once in a while
when we were doing our prepmeetings, she would say,
(sighs) "Is it okay if likein the middle of the VOD
I just reach across the table
and smack the shit out of him?"
And we would all just,me and my co-facilitator
would just start laughing.
And I said, "Oh yeah, youknow, you can't do that."
But I was like, "But you can think it.
You can think it and you can even tell him
(12:06):
that this is how I feel.
This is how angry I am.
This is how much you'vetaken away from me."
So all of those expressionsare a part of a VOD,
and it's really also about,what is in it for you?
What are you going in it for,
and what do you want for yourself?
What do you want for your family?
What do you want for your healing?
What do you want for your life?
Hopefully, particularly forsurvivors, it's about you.
(12:28):
It's about what's in yourlife and what's the journey
that you're on and is this something
that is a part of your journey or not?
- I'm curious how it's going so far,
Annie, to hear about it.
- Yeah, it's just likesparking more questions.
Lots of thoughts and lots of questions.
And maybe before we get intokind of the harder questions,
I'm curious to know, what doesa successful VOD look like?
(12:52):
What are the successstories that jump to mind
that show kind of the fullest potential
of how restorative justice can work?
- Yeah, no, that's such a great question.
I think that success is really determined
mainly by the survivor and what they want
and also by the person who's done harm
being able to be clearabout what they want
(13:12):
and how to meet also theneeds of the survivor.
So I would say it's really dependent
on the person more than anything else.
I'll say this is true in my conversations,
but also it's true acrossthe board and the research
is that most people want to know why.
They want to ask specific questions
that only the person thatdid the harm can answer.
(13:33):
They want to express anger and grief
and rage, sadness, loss.
They want to let the personknow what it's been like
for 20 years for them.
Really you need to hearthis, look me in the eye.
You need to hear the thingsthat I have to say to you.
Some folks are also ina place of forgiveness.
It's not necessary, butthat's what comes out.
(13:54):
I think it offers clarity.
I think it's offered alot of healing of like,
people who have searched different ways
to make meaning out ofincredible suffering and loss
finding a new level of meaning or healing
or another piece in thejourney of the incredible loss.
And so I think that's whatI've heard the most as success.
(14:16):
And I think for a person who's done harm,
it's really their moment toshow up with accountability.
It's really a moment to showup without making excuses,
without minimizing, withoutlike, finding a way out,
really addressing aincredible amount of shame
and seeing how truth can betranscendent for them as well.
(14:40):
What happens when we tellthe real truth of something?
How does that liberate
on a more kind of personal spiritual way?
Not so much in termsof being incarcerated.
- Do you mean like thetruth of my experience
of what that was like?
Whether it's the personwho caused the harm
or the person who washarmed telling the truth.
(15:00):
- Telling the truth. I didthis or I killed your mother.
I raped this person.
Imagine someone who's done harmactually saying those words
actually having to hear the impact of that
and being able to tell the truth about it
and not dive and duck.
- Yeah, it's kind of intense.
I mean even hearing youjust say, "Yeah, I did that.
I killed your mother."
(15:21):
You know, are people enteringinto VODs with the person
who has actually committedhomicide of a family member?
Is that, I imagine they do,
but that seems incrediblytricky and challenging.
- It tends to be.
(15:42):
So there are not that manypeople who reach out to do VODs.
Partly it's because peopledon't know about it, you know?
Or they don't know that it exists.
Partly it's becauseit's so hard and tricky,
and maybe it's just not thething that you want to do.
But I would say that morethan half of the survivors
who reach out are murdervictim family members
(16:04):
so they're homicide victim family members,
so mothers, siblings, children.
Mothers, siblings, andchildren tend to be direct kin.
There's a lot of reaching out in that way.
- Yeah, and for us, there'san elephant in the room here
for the two of us around, wouldwe ever engage a VOD process
with the man who killed Polly?
(16:26):
And my answer is no.
There's just no, no way.
But I do support the idea ofrestorative justice in general.
You know, and I'm wonderingif you could maybe speak
to when is it not appropriate
or this is just a very challengingpart of the conversation
of like the elephant in the room for us.
It cuts pretty close to the bone,
(16:48):
you know, it's pretty personal.
- Absolutely. It's notappropriate if you don't want to.
That's the end of the story.- Uh-huh.
- All a VOD is, it's anotheravenue for those who want it.
It's not coercive. It's nottelling you, you should do it.
It's not saying that yousuck at restorative justice
if you don't do a VOD.
No, it's just saying,hey, we want to provide
(17:12):
as many avenues for healingand accountability as possible.
And if so, if you choose so as a victim,
as a survivor, here's one.
You know, yours tochoose or not to choose.
No pressure, no nothing.
And honoring that victims areallowed to feel everything
under the spectrum fromadvocating for the death penalty
(17:34):
to having woken up inspontaneous forgiveness.
And I have met both types of survivors
and everything in betweenand people who've changed,
gone from one place to the other.
So it's a really true moment
of meeting people where they are.
And there's no need if it'snot gonna serve you, you know?
And that's the answer.
(17:55):
And nobody should makeyou feel bad about it.
And then you can still say,
I'm really glad it's therefor people who want it
because it's broughtthem something and yay.
And maybe vicariouslywhen I hear them talk,
I get something out of it.
I learn something more aboutmyself and that's enough.
It doesn't have to be more than that.
- Yeah, it is so interesting.
I think I feel some relief knowing
that this isn't necessarilya one-size-fits-all approach
(18:17):
and that everyone heals differently
and everyone's needs are different.
And even that forgiveness
isn't necessarily the intended outcome.
It's just a possibility.
And I think that this is a place
where Jess and I have beentalking a lot lately actually
about the idea of forgiveness
as something that's virtuous, right?
To be someone who's capable of forgiving.
(18:39):
It's almost, I think in certain framings
it can almost be a little problematic
in terms of people wantingto forgive, you know,
as evidence of them beingmore evolved or something.
It's like, there's a lot ofways in which I think that word
gets so loaded and it's so tricky
because forgiveness doesn't undo the harm.
You know, it wouldn'tbring our sister back.
(19:00):
And I appreciate youacknowledging just the complexity
of our position where it'slike we're really wanting
to lift up these other modelsfor justice and healing
and yet this is one that, you know,
maybe we wouldn't actuallybe able to participate in
just because like you, Idon't feel that forgiveness
or redemption would be appropriatein this case or possible.
(19:23):
So my question was sort of about
when this process becomesmessy, when it goes sideways,
when it doesn't bring someone
what it is that they're looking for,
how do you navigate that as a facilitator?
- Yeah, for sure. Definitelya messy side to the process.
I wanted to say something just to validate
what you're saying about,you know, doing this work.
(19:45):
Like if somebody killedmy child, I have to,
I don't know or thinkI'd be able to do a VOD.
I don't, you know, I really,I'd be like, oh hell no.
Like I would be there.
And I'm in this work, you know,
as a champion of it and I'm like, "Ugh."
And so there are, Icompletely agree with you
that there's all theselike, unconscious conscious,
(20:05):
like culturally sort of intimidating ways
that people associate forgivenesswith enlightenment, right?
But I think it's really important
to bust that narrative a bit down
and really not ascribe anykind of higher transcendence
to like, something versus the other.
It just is what it isand we are where we are.
(20:25):
And you can think of yourwork, your justice-based work
or your activist work asa kind of enlightenment
that is different from this, right?
Somebody else isn't gonnatake it on a structural level.
Other people are.
You know, I just feellike there's so many ways
for us to find ourspecific intervention space
and do what's vulnerable andhard because that feels right.
(20:47):
So I just wanted to say that.
In terms of the messiness, myexperience has been, you know,
a real messy place is like,there's like the perfect VOD
where everyone's like, readyand you know, able to go there.
And then there's the onewhere one party isn't.
And that's difficult, right?
Like I've tended to do more ofthe VODs around sexual harm.
(21:08):
There's a trickiness to beingdirectly sexually abused
and then facing that person
and the kind of levels ofcontrol that are present
and the levels of fear that are present.
They're different. They'rereally just different.
Everything's different,homicide, sexual harm.
And when the violation hasbeen so intimate, you know,
I think there's just somuch PTSD that I've noticed
(21:30):
that really surfaces, andI've had a few situations
where these survivors wereready to do this dialogue
and I was like, incredibly courageous
to decide that they want to talk.
You know, one was a child sexual abuse,
the other one was a rape.
And both of the people who've done harm
(21:52):
were just not accountable,you know, could not get there.
And it was heartbreakingfor me and devastating.
It's like, do you know what it means
that this person actuallywants to like, talk to you?
One of them was completely unaccountable.
Another one was likea half accountability.
And that was very trickybecause as a facilitator
we don't want to, if peoplewant to talk, it's up to them
(22:17):
and we want to support aprocess no matter what.
So we just be incrediblytransparent with the survivor
of like, hey, this iswhere this person is at.
You might not get a full accountability.
You might get a half one.
Do you still want to go through with it?
Here are the kinds of thingsyou might come up against.
Here are the things, kinds ofthings that they might say.
What happens if you hear this?
(22:38):
How are you gonna feel ifthey deny that this happened?
And so it's getting intothe nuances of like,
as you learn what people are like,
being able to reallyprepare the other side
without giving away thestory because the story
is for each other to tell,
but without sort of thecontent information.
I might pick up specific things and say,
(22:59):
"What happens if the person, you know,
really can be accountable to the fact
that they did this toyou but doesn't remember
some of the events in the same way?
How are you gonna feel about that?
What happens if that comesup and you ask a question
and they kind of are like dodging,
and I'm telling you this might happen.
So do you think that this is something
(23:21):
you still wanna go through withknowing that could happen?"
So then it's just levelsof transparency, right?
I'm just gonna tell youexactly what you can expect
and you get to decide still ifyou wanna be in this or not.
So I would say that is apretty big messy thing.
And then I think the last thing
is really about familymembers, other family members.
So you start doing this process.
(23:42):
Maybe it takes a yearor two years, whatever.
And your family's hearing about it, right?
And then it's like, somepeople have have feels.
They have thoughts. They have opinions.
They might want to be involved.
They might not want to be involved.
They might be annoyed withyou or angry with you.
And depending on your relationshipto that family member,
you might also be navigatingreally tricky waters.
(24:05):
It's like, I've heardthat from other people
about when other peoplestart getting involved
and folks want to take care of each other,
like the victim wants to takecare of the other victims
and so maybe we should bring them in,
but then it's not reallymy dialogue anymore
and everyone's in a different place
and so that's also pretty tricky.
- Boy, I, just hearing you speak, sonya,
with the degree of care that's being taken
(24:27):
at the different steps in acknowledging
like what's true on either side
and being the liaison, right?
And okay, well this might come up
and are you ready for this?
And what if this comes up?
And okay, family members
and it's like looking at the whole picture
and facilitating that process.
Like, it seems like, I mean,
(24:49):
the word that's coming up, it's silly,
but it's like some bigadulting that you're doing.
There's like, wow, that's a lot
to hold in the process, right?
There's really so many pieces to it.
- Yeah, I can imaginethat as a facilitator,
the capacities that you must have
and all that you must beable to hold, like Jess said,
(25:10):
I imagine it's taken a lot of practice
and a lot of experience to get there.
- Yeah, and so much of it in the beginning
is just about creatingtrust and relationship
mainly with the victims, you know?
It's a big deal for someoneto go on this journey
and then to do it withyou and to trust you
and to trust each other.
And I mean, honestly Ithink part of the reason
(25:31):
it takes time is becausethere has to be that trust
and depth of relationshipbetween the facilitators
and the victims in particular,you know, to feel comfortable
going into the messy spaceswhen the difficulty comes.
Trying to really be inthat space with each other.
But you know, I also, I gain so much
(25:51):
just from being with peoplein their own journey.
We all do on the facilitator side.
- I'm curious, Jess, sinceyou've been doing this work,
you've been a part of this group
for the past four, five months.
If it's okay, I'd be curious
to just hear how it's been for you
and what you've experienced
and what you've been getting out of it.
(26:13):
- Yeah, totally. Happy to share some.
When I first spoke withyou, sonya, over the summer,
I was really interestedkind of professionally.
I have a facilitation background.
I like holding a lot of complexity.
You know, I've facilitatedchallenging conversations.
(26:34):
Probably you recall I wassharing more about like,
I'm professionally interested in this.
It's true restorative justicehas this buzz term, right?
A lot of people are talkingabout it and I felt, you know,
you invited me into also the possibility
of being a part of it formy own personal experience.
(26:55):
I acknowledged that, too.
Like I'm a survivor. Like, I'm a victim.
There's a power inacknowledging that, actually.
Like okay, and is theresomething for me personally here?
And even though I have nointerest in engaging a VOD process
with the man who killed Polly,
I'm interested insomething else for myself,
(27:18):
and being a part of thisgroup has given me something
that's been really precious, actually.
You know, Annie, it's like thistime that we've been engaged
in all these conversations,I haven't really had a place
to share with othersurvivors about my process
(27:40):
especially as we're steppingup into more advocacy work,
like being able to have aplace to share about that
with other people that kind of understand.
Most of the people inthis group that I'm in,
they've lost a loved one to homicide.
And I had never been in a group like that.
And even though circumstancesare very different,
(28:03):
it feels like a place of belonging.
There's a couple highlightmoments in my very first meeting
toward the end of the time.
It's a two-hour group over Zoom,
and toward the end of the time
we're basically in our checkout rounds.
And this woman looks at me and she says,
"I just wanna ask you,like, are you doing okay?"
And there's something aboutthe sincerity of her question.
(28:28):
I think people ask eachother all the time,
like, "How are you?"
It's not like a reallike, "I actually care.
Like, how are you?"
In that moment, I actuallywas brought to tears
because it was just genuine,
and I feel that in thesegroups, like the care.
The point of us being thereis just to connect and share
like, from our hearts whatever is true,
(28:50):
and I'm getting to know these people.
I have my facilitator hat on sometimes
and I could say from the facilitator hat,
I can tell what kind ofinterventions are coming in,
what the facilitatorsare doing in terms of
what they'll invite theparticipant like me into or to do.
And the thing that constantlyseems to be the intervention
(29:12):
is for the group member toshare what their feelings are.
This is happening in yourlife, but how are you doing?
How are you feeling?
You know, when you say allthese things like, how are you?
And it's really, it's so simple.
There's a real simplicity toit, but it's very humanizing.
I feel very much we'rehumaning in a good way,
(29:33):
you know, as survivors together.
So yeah, even though I neverwill engage in a process,
I don't believe in that kind of process,
there's still so much to experience
and to be gained by being a part of it.
- I like that word humaning.I mean, it's interesting.
That does make me feel a little bit more,
(29:55):
oh, what would that be like?
The truth is that of course trauma
can be really alienating, right?
And I've never sat ina room full of people
where other people had
that same shared experience that I do.
And you know, in factmost of my experiences
of talking about it with people,I often end up in the role
of trying to make them feel better
(30:15):
because it's so upsettingfor them to hear about,
so I end up comforting them.
It is really strikingjust hearing that moment
where you get to be on thereceiving end of that care
with someone who does understand,and that's really lovely.
And it's also nice to see like, okay,
even if you know the VODprocess wouldn't be appropriate
for me or for us inour specific situation,
(30:38):
there's still something for us here,
and there's somethingreally beautiful about that.
- Definitely, yeah.
And I hear about otherpeople's VOD process
and the things that they're going through,
and I feel so privileged
to get to have a littlewindow into what it's like.
Wow, that's what you'redealing with right now?
There's so much that comesup when you lose a loved one
(31:00):
from the media attention.
Like other people have had media attention
to varying degrees and whatdo they wanna do with it,
and is it going to pointthem in a certain direction
with where they put attention
or what's their relationshipwith their family?
You know, there's so many complexities,
and I definitely feel less alone.
- Yeah, I mean, only people
that have those sharedexperiences know certain things
(31:22):
that the rest of us don't know.
I think that's true in any group.
It's ugh, I don't have toexplain, I don't have to teach.
I don't have to make you feelbetter. I can just show up.
And I think this idea of survivor groups
is another avenue, right?
Just, there's the VOD.
We're talking about,what are all the avenues?
And there should be so many more of them.
You know, what should beresourced are all of these avenues
(31:45):
that help assist survivorsgo where they want to go,
including resources, right?
Including compensation,including support groups,
including PTSD services, including VODs.
There's so many different areas
that need to be way moreaccessible, way more out there.
I think they're so few and far between.
(32:07):
- Yeah, I had no idea that this existed.
It's like you reallygotta look for something
to have it show up often.- Yeah.
- I mean, I think the general approach
that we are trying to take on this podcast
is recognizing how manyalternatives there are
and how many different avenues are needed
to allow people to haveaccountability, to find healing,
(32:28):
to receive the support they need
to actually make communities safer.
And these all feel likeequally important parts
of this larger constellationof things that are needed
so that we aren't just relying exclusively
on incarceration and punishment.
(soft instrumental music)
- So I am interested ingoing back to this piece
(32:50):
you said early on, sonya,
when you said that youhave some critiques of RJ
if you're willing to sharesome of those with us.
- Yeah, I think we reallyhave to examine the structures
that don't allow alternativesto actually exist.
And I think that's why we need
all of this big policy direct action work.
(33:11):
Like, if we can create somespaces for this work to happen,
then what kind of success could we see?
Which might take time.
So we've been talking about,
if there was one thingI would love to see,
'cause we're trying todo a lot of kind of RJ
in the community where people,
we pretty much take everybody's call,
(33:32):
anybody who reaches out to uswho doesn't want to trigger
the criminal legal system andwe try to see what we can do,
and it's really difficultto convince somebody
who's done harm to come forward and talk
if their lawyer is telling them,
"Don't say a damn thing," right?
That's like the stupidestthing you could ever do
(33:53):
so we're stuck in an adversarial system
that doesn't even give an avenue
for us to sort of thinkabout how to do this.
Why is that so hard to do?
So it gives people, survivors,victims who are like,
"I don't wanna call the police.
I actually don't wanna call them.
I do want this person tobe accountable," you know?
But they're not gonna show up
(34:13):
because there's always a threatthat person can go to jail
if the survivor changes their mind.
What if there was some kind of protection?
It doesn't seem impossible todo stuff like that in my mind.
It's like, why don't we have that?
To me that's the critique.
My critique is more ofaround the social structures
that don't allow this work to happen.
It's an interesting thing tosee how restorative justice
(34:36):
is formed in different places.
So you go to cities likeNew York or the Bay Area,
and the birth of restorativejustice in the Bay Area
is very much intertwinedwith racial justice with,
Fania Davis is one oflike, the grandmothers
or mothers of restorative justicehere, and her organization
is Restorative Justice for Oakland Youth.
It's very African-centered.
And like, there was nopart of doing this work
(34:57):
that wasn't also about understanding
the disproportionateincarceration of people of color,
specifically Black folks.- Right.
- In the Bay area, that'strue. In New York, that's true.
But you go to a rural area
or you go to even, not even a rural area,
you go to other citiesand there's not enough
of a racial justice analysis integration
(35:18):
with some restorative justicefolks and practitioners.
And somebody I workedwith used to say like,
"If you're just lookingat the fight in the school
between this Black kid and the white kid
and saying the Black kidhas to be accountable
and the white kid, you'remissing the whole context."
Like it's about the school.
It's about how everybody's treated,
it's about understanding the system.
And then of course there's someinterpersonal accountability
(35:41):
as well, but some RJ people
that don't have racialjustice thinking or analysis
go into it and all theysee is the micro moment
without the context of harm, oppression
and like, inequity around it.
And I think that's been a big problem
in the restorative justice community.
And then I think the thirdthing is just this way
that people can callanything restorative justice
(36:01):
and get away with it.
It's just like, oh yeah,you know we're doing RJ,
but we're locking people up.
It's just like, no, that'snot what it is, you know?
And it causes great confusion.
People get confused and don't understand
and then it just feels misunderstood.
So I think those are my biggest critiques.
- Yeah, it seems like at its core, though,
(36:24):
in terms of the process,
those are a little bitmore systemic critiques
that have it be that RJ isn'tflourishing as it could,
but that really at the heartof it, it's a good thing.
- Yeah, I mean it's kind oflike if you took wellness
and you said, "Choose yoga or acupuncture
(36:46):
or massage therapy."
You choose the modalitythat works for you, right?
Yoga doesn't work for everybody
and neither does acupuncture
like AA doesn't work foreverybody, it's just an option.
Choose your wellness strategy, right?
And at its core, people wholike doing yoga, it's great.
I think it's the same thing here.
It's, hey, here's an optionif this works for you,
(37:06):
and if it doesn't, that's cool.
There's so many other wayswe can get to healing.
There are other ways wecan get to accountability.
It doesn't have to be thisone, but here's one, you know?
So I think I think of it like that.
Like, can we just see it as an option,
not as like the strategy, you know,
to end all incarceration?
It's just an option.
- Could it also be a strategy?
(37:28):
Like I can imagine a VODhappening where the person
who did the harm is stillincarcerated, right?
You work with people like that
that are still incarcerated, right?
And maybe they get up forparole and maybe even the person
who was harmed through theprocess of reconnection ends up
(37:52):
finding connection and seeingthe humanity and all of that
and is even potentiallypart of the parole process.
Could it be on the part ofthe person who caused harm,
who's incarcerated to actuallybe a part of the process
with their own agenda ofgetting out of prison?
Do you ever see thatkind of thing happening?
(38:13):
- Yeah, I mean it's such aninteresting thing, right?
Like, I'm trying to think abouteven when we've done groups
in prison, some people are just there
to get the chrono, right?
Like they're just there tocheck off a box and say,
"Hey, you know, if I did this group,
I know it's gonna look goodon my resume" kind of thing.
But there is a reality that that's nice,
(38:34):
that's cool, that's how you started.
Good luck getting through this whole thing
because it's a process ofgetting deep and going raw
and like getting intoyour shame and getting...
There's a place where at somepoint you can't hide anymore.
It's not gonna happen.
And you could go through themotions and in a program,
for example, you could get a chrono,
but it's not gonna mean anything
(38:55):
if you can't sit in theboardroom and articulate.
- What's a chrono?
- Oh you can get like a certificate,
you know, that you completed something.
But you're gonna sit in frontof a bunch of commissioners.
It's like the articulationis the last thing.
I used to bug out whenI was going into prisons
and I would hear peopletry to be accountable
for the harm they caused.
And I was like, "God, ifthey just said it like this,
(39:15):
it would sound so much better."
In my mind. I never said that out loud.
But I was like, "Why is this person?"
And then I realized, oh, beingable to truly articulate it
is probably like thelast thing that happens.
You actually have to like,understand your own stuff,
go through the cause of why I did it,
understand your own trauma,
understand like, howit relates to violence
and then the articulationstarts to come out.
So I think it's similarto the VOD thing like,
(39:38):
that's nice that you couldget into a room, but you know,
if you're a year or twoyears into something
and the facilitatorsdon't feel like you can...
We're not hearing anyaccountability because it's like,
you're having to lookthis person in the eye
and hear for hours and talk for hours
about the thing that happened,it'd be really hard to do.
(39:59):
I can imagine that it is inthe back of some folks's mind.
Oh, this will look good on my resume.
Honestly, when is it notin the back of my mind?
Oh, this will be goodfor me in these ways.
So is that wrong to thinkthat? It might be there.
I don't think it wouldactually go through.
(warm instrumental music)
- I wanna go back toforgiveness if we could
because I think that restorative justice
(40:21):
has a reputation of like love and lighters
that are just somehow gonna, what is it?
Is the forgiveness even real?
Or they're like, it's justifyingthe behavior of the person
or I just think that thiswhole piece of forgiveness
is so charged, and I think a lot of people
(40:45):
would want to avoid restorativejustice or anything like it
because it's got this sortof association of forgiveness
and it's not grounded inreality or something like that
even though I know thatpeople, as you said,
they have spontaneousexperiences of forgiveness.
I guess I'm just like,I wanna go back to that
'cause I don't really know.
I don't know how forgiveness happens.
(41:06):
And then you say that it'snot required to forgive
to be a part of this at all.
And yet it seems like ithas such an association
with forgiveness somehow.
So do you share that perception of like,
(41:26):
how it is that people thinkof restorative justice?
- Yeah, and maybe not so muchjust because I'm in it a lot
and I don't see a lot of of forgiveness,
to be quite honest with you.
- Okay, (laughs) that's good to know.
- That's interesting, wow.
- Yeah, I think a lot of expression.
I think forgiveness is reallycomplicated and tricky,
and it's nobody's job to tellanybody else where it lands
(41:46):
or if they should or shouldn't,
but that's also coming fromsomeone who's in it a lot.
I feel like because RJ islike one of the very few areas
where we actually ask survivorslike, "How are you doing?"
And "Hey, we care."
Everything gets loadedon this process, right?
But you must be about forgivenessor, I'm not about that.
(42:09):
We're not trying to sayit's one or the other.
We're not trying to saybe angry or forgive.
We're just trying tosay, here's a process.
- They totally make sense.
I think that it's laudedin some ways similarly
to how it can be vilified,which is really actually removed
from the context in whichit's intended to function.
And it's been so useful toreally get a deeper cut of that
(42:29):
and to really understandthat justice doesn't mean
forgiveness is better than punishment.
Restorative justice doesn'tmean fill in the blank.
It's really one way of many
that people can come to find some healing,
can hopefully create accountability.
- There needs to be a lotmore out there for survivors.
There needs to be a lot more understanding
(42:51):
of just what that experienceis, you know, what it means
10 years, five years, 15,20 years down the line
in order to us to get to a place
where it feels like it's even palatable
to talk about forgiveness on a mass scale.
Like, why are we even talking about that?
There's so many other things
that we need to talk aboutfirst before we get there.
You want to race to the endproduct, but the end product is,
(43:12):
you know, skipping how everybodyfeels, and that's not okay.
That's not okay.
- And maybe 20 yearsof process to get there
or however long, you know?- Right.
Yeah, that resonates with mea lot because just personally,
some of the core values that I really hold
are being emotionallyand intellectually honest
and also really rigorous andnot bypassing what is needed
(43:35):
in order to forgive orwhatever the thing is
because that may or may notbe the right goal for you.
That may or may not beyour path to healing,
and you can't skip over things
that will actually get you there.
I love that's somethingthat restorative justice
is really built around, it seems like,
and that that is whatthe process is coming to,
what is right for you.
- Yeah, but it doesn'tchange the perception
(43:57):
of RJ as forgiveness, right?
- Or letting people off the hook.
- Letting people off thehook or love and roses,
whatever you said that thing about just,
oh yeah, light a candle in love.
It doesn't stop that perception,
and it's because our sort of culture
is very black and white thinking.
It's either like prisonor like love and candles.
There's no gray area nuance in there
(44:17):
that we're kind of used to talking about.
- Yeah, hopefully we broughta little bit of that in today.
- Yeah.
- Hopefully we broughtsome gray in. (laughs)
- Complex. There's a lot of complexity.
- sonya, tell us what's needed
for your organization at this point.
You know, what do you seeis needed for California?
And then also, how canpeople get involved?
(44:37):
- For California, it's thesupport for really good work
happening with different organizations,
like really robust support for them,
whatever that looks likewhether it's volunteering,
resources, whether it's opening doors,
whether it's just being acheerleader from the outside.
So I think the support for the work,
and then I think we need somebig social structure work.
(44:58):
You know, big policy change work is like,
none of this is gonna happen without that.
One of the things thatwe're really committed to
is getting back to people.
So we hyper-vigilantly check our contact
at ahimsacollective.net andI think if you're curious
about the work, if you'reinterested in a VOD,
if you just want to know more,
(45:18):
if you don't want to call the police
and you're trying to figureout what to do, you know,
that's the best way toget in touch with us.
And we try really hardto get back to people
and put them into theright lane, basically.
- That feels so good.
Well, thank you so much,sonya, for joining us.
I'm so happy to introduce you to Annie,
and thanks for sharing so much.
(45:40):
- Really nice to meet you, Annie.
- It was really wonderful to meet you.
And you know, I might be reaching out soon
to see what lane I might fit into.
(bright piano music)
- Okay, so that was amazing.
How was that conversation for you?
- So to be honest, thatconversation wasn't what I expected.
(46:02):
I went into it with a lotof curiosity and interest,
but I think I was expectingto feel a bit more polarized
or somehow more in opposition
to the frameworks of restorative justice
just because in our specific case,
a Victim-Offender Dialogue isn't something
that we're interested in pursuing.
But, you know, regardless of whether
(46:23):
we would personally everparticipate in a VOD,
I absolutely see the value of this work.
And it's so important that survivors
have this kind of an avenueto explore their own healing.
Since we recorded thisconversation, I've actually talked
to other survivors who haveinitiated this process.
And what I've seen is thisreally large community
(46:45):
of survivors who honestly havemore capacity for compassion
and understanding for how harm happens
than our justice system does.
And for a system thatclaims to represent people
who have been harmed,why is it that a person
who has experienced, you know,
the deepest pain of theirlives can see a clearer path
(47:06):
to redemption for theperson who harmed them
than our justice system?
- And like sonya said, thisis just one path of many,
and it may not be right foreveryone, but the point is
that it's focused on theactual needs of survivors.
It centers their healing andit enables accountability
for the person who did harm.
(47:28):
It's actually unbelievable to me
that this isn't already happening
on a larger scale in our justice system.
We really need more ofthese kinds of methods
that not only bring survivors healing,
but allow people who have hurt someone
to understand the depthof harm they caused
and take accountability for it
because that's really the kind of work
(47:49):
that causes transformation.
Thank you for listening tothis episode of "A New Legacy."
To stay in the loop,
please go to our website, anewlegacy.com.
(soft instrumental music)
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