October 15, 2021 • 30 secs
In this conversation, we will be speaking with lifelong community organizer and Executive Director of Californians for Safety and Justice, Tinisch Hollins. We will discuss how Bay Area communities have come together to create ways of supporting kids and schools. We will also learn about critical legislation in the making, as well as Tinisch's journey of redefining justice and healing for survivors.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- Hello, and welcome to A New Legacy.
I'm Jess Nichol and I'mhere with my sister, Annie.
And in this episode,
we are proud to be featuring
a conversation with Tinisch Hollins.
The reason we picked her asour first conversation is
because Tinisch is a powerful leader
who has been doing grassroots
(00:21):
organizing for her entire life
to support the people in her
community who have needed it most.
- Yeah.
Tinisch is exactly who we wantpeople to listen to and be
guided by in many of the verychallenging issues we're going
to be talking about on this podcast.
- Yeah.
In this conversation,
we'll be discussing the needfor community-based programs
(00:43):
for kids and non-punitiveapproaches to supporting schools
and communities as well as herjourney of redefining justice
and healing for survivors
and the folks mostimpacted by incarceration.
- You know, I think we wereboth really in a place of
kind of listening and taking in
her wisdom in thisconversation because her,
(01:03):
her message is just so rich and important.
And I know it's had a reallylasting impact on us, both.
- Yeah.
- So before we dive in,will you read her bio, Jess?
She's just done so many amazing things.
- Yes.
So,
a crime survivor and a nativeof San Francisco, Tinisch is
the Executive Director ofCalifornians for Safety and
(01:24):
Justice, which is the Alliancefor Safety and Justice's
flagship state-based program.
Tinisch previously served for two years
as CSJ's Associate Director,
as well as the CaliforniaState Director of
Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice.
After starting withthe organization as the
Bay Area Chapter coordinator of CSSJ.
Her leadership helped to passhistoric first in the nation
(01:47):
legislation that extendedemployment leave for all survivors
of violence,
as well as legislation permittingcrime victims to terminate
their leases if they no longerfeel safe in their homes,
following a crime.
Tinisch also played a pivotalleadership role in the defeat
of Proposition 20. Regressiveballot measure on the 2020
California ballot that soughtto repeal numerous successful
(02:10):
criminal justice reforms.
She has been deeplyengaged in the Bay Area,
social justice movementas a community organizer,
policy advocate and systems navigator
for nearly two decades.
Tinisch has worked passionatelyto bring the voices of
survivors to the centerof community engagement
and public policy,
and has advocated tirelesslyfor those voices to guide
(02:30):
decisions, priorities, and resources.
Prior to joining CSJ in 2019,Tinisch served in various
leadership capacities in local government,
including at the San FranciscoHuman Services Agency and in
the San Francisco Mayor'sOffice of Criminal Justice.
- Tinisch,
thank you so much for beingwilling to speak with us today.
We met very briefly on acall like some months ago,
(02:54):
and I remember that yourcompassion and kindness on that
call made a really lastingimpression on me and on,
on both of us.
And so we've been reallylooking forward to this
conversation.
- And your name justcomes up. I don't know,
at least I know like, Tinisch
(laughter)
- This woman. We haveto talk to this woman.
- Totally. And I know thisis a really intense week.
(03:18):
You know, the week when we're recording
this conversation is the same week we saw
a guilty verdictdelivered to Derek Chauvin
for the murder of George Floyd.
Which happened within thesame hour as another police
killing of a 16 year old girl.
And, it's also a nationalcrime survivors week,
which I know is huge for you in CSJ. So,
before we dive in,
I just wanted to see how are you,
(03:40):
how are you doing?
- Well? I mean, I'm,
I'm just really grateful tohave this time with you all.
I just respect your voice
and you sharing your stories
so publicly with all of usand community as survivors.
It really means a lot. Andyeah, this week has been
a lot, you know,
moments of encouragement andthen unfortunately followed by
(04:05):
moments of rage
and despair.
But still hope underneath all of it.
And that's what I'm holding on to.
I think that's what this weekend is about.
Survivors Speak and pulling all of our
survivors together across the country
for a moment of healing,
but also to focus on the waysthat we've turned our pain
into power. So, hopeful and encouraged
(04:25):
in the midst of all this.
- I guess, you know,
an obvious first questionto ask would just be like,
what brought you to this work?
And what meaning does it hold for you?
- So my,
my journey into this work started
when I was young and I
actually had no idea what I was doing,
but I am what they wouldcall a community organizer.
I became what they calla community organizer.
(04:46):
I had no idea that's what I wasdoing at the time. You know,
I grew up in Bay View HuntersPoint in San Francisco,
which is, you know,
a neighborhood that ringsbells like South Central
Los Angeles or Chicago,beautiful communities,
predominantly blackfolks and folks of color.
And unfortunately, you know,
communities that also experiencedhigh rates of violence and
(05:07):
other disparities. So I grewup holding those two truths,
just looking at my communityand knowing how beautiful it,
it was. And many times how Ifelt safer in my community than
anywhere else, but also havingmoments where I felt unsafe.
And unfortunately seen a lotof really terrible things
happen. You know, peoplelosing their lives to violence.
(05:30):
When I saw systems interactingwith my family and with
community that there was thisassumption that no one cared
about safety, no onecared about wellbeing,
no one cared about health or education.
And I just knew that was wrong.
I knew that was, thatI knew that was wrong,
that that assumption was wrong.
(05:50):
And that I also understoodthat a lot of what I saw
happening was happening becausepeople want it to be safe.
People wanted access to help and support
that they just weren't getting.
And so a lot of the solutionsthat were being imposed
on us, where solutionsare actually harmful.
There are punitive. All theissues that I saw happening
around us were being respondedto with harsh punishments.
(06:14):
You know, if your kidsare not going to school,
you're gonna, we're gonna senda truancy officer, you know?
And the parents will be penalized.
Issues with housing?
You're going to beevicted from your housing.
Issues in school?
You're gonna be put outof school or, you know,
placed in detention or suspension.
And I just saw that pattern,
like why is every the responseto every problem punitive?
(06:36):
You know, it's, it's a penalty.
So I spoke up about that andI thought it was important to
bring the voices of the peoplethat were experiencing these
problems and these issues intothe conversation about what
to do about it.
(gentle music)
- So now you're theExecutive Director of CSJ.
(06:58):
(laughter)
From that to this.
- Yeah. There's, you know, lots of,
lots of twists and turns onthat journey from being a,
you know,
a young teenager speaking outagainst the police or speaking
to the police or speaking to,you know, elected officials.
Mayors, folks who came into my community.
And now leading CSJ is a huge honor.
(07:20):
It also feels like, you know,
the right place to be,especially in this moment.
There's so much that
folks don't understand
about criminal justice reform
and what it really means. You know,
I think that they often gettriggered when they hear these
phrases and believe thatwhat we're saying is
we don't want accountability.
(07:41):
That people should getaway with certain things.
And that's not what we're saying.
What we're saying is that wehave pumped billions of dollars
into the system that has failed us.
It's failed to keep us safe.
It's failed to address the rootcauses of the problems that
we are all experiencingand being impacted by.
And that we have to takea different approach.
And one that allows us toaddress the root of the problem,
(08:03):
but also free up resourcesso that we can have responses
that are more comprehensive.
You can't incarcerate our way into safety.
We've proven it.
It's been decades. It won't happen.
And I think in California,we've come a long way.
You know,
that's been evident by theway that folks have voted over
the past couple of years,voting in big reforms,
(08:25):
like Prop 47, Prop 57,
and last year defeating Proposition 20.
And that was in defense ofthe work that has been done
through those other stateballot initiatives to do exactly
what I said, you know.
Which is reduce our relianceon systems that haven't worked
and reinvest those dollarsinto things that actually do
prevent the cycle ofcrime in our communities.
(08:48):
- In terms of the way thatresources can be redirected back
into communities forprevention and for support.
One of the themes that we'veseen in our conversations with
other survivors is the importance of that.
Of those programs. You know,
obviously mental health services,
even just after school programs, sports.
Places where people cango if they want to be safe
(09:11):
or want to have community.
And I was wondering if there are any
programs like that. Thatreally stand out to you.
That you've seen beparticularly impactful.
I think it's just really greatto bring more and more of
those kinds of examples out sothat people can picture them
really clearly.
- Oh yeah. Tons of them.
I mean, I grew up in them in my community.
I work with them and partner with them
(09:32):
outside of CSJ everyday.
The ones that I believe havethe most impact are those who
are led by survivors and peoplewho are directly impacted by
the issues that they're working on.
So we have amazingorganizations in, you know,
throughout California, but youknow, I'm from San Francisco.
So I'm always thinking aboutthe folks that are closest to
the ground here. And wehave organizations like
(09:53):
Inner City Youth, SouthwestDevelopment Corporation,
which is doing amazing work with seniors
and families in the, in OMI.
We have the San Francisco Rebels
and San Francisco Brown Bombers
which have almost threedecades now have been working
directly with young people.
Getting them into sports andsupporting them academically
and giving them access andopportunities to college.
(10:13):
You know, many survivor led organizations.
We're actually launching aninitiative to provide some
support to organizations thatare led by crime survivors.
So they can provide direct cashassistance to crime victims
in their community. And that's huge.
It's huge. You know,
but it's another example ofhow programs and folks on the
(10:35):
ground have had to stand in thegap and supplement the areas
where systems have failedand not been able to meet the
need. You know,
I see it happen all thetime in other communities.
And people see an area thatthey consider to be blight.
They get together and theybuild a community garden.
You know, they repurpose a space.
They launch businesses.
(10:55):
They start organizations and associations.
It's not uncommon, but whenwe do it in our communities,
we don't always get the samesupport and we don't get the
same respect.
You know,
unfortunately there's thisperception that we don't have the
expertise or the bandwidth
to be able to sustain these things.
And the truth is we do them allthe time and we do them with
(11:18):
very little to no resources.
And it's how we keep ourcommunity safe and whole in the
midst of all the other challengesand crisis' that may be
happening within and around us.
And so I'm just happy to, you know,
be able to continue doing that work
in this capacity.
My brothers,
they love to dance and
(11:39):
they used to dance to get girls.
That was their secret.
(laughter)
And they,
but they didn't wantto be known as dancers.
They didn't think it wascool enough, you know,
and in our community, you know,there was a lot of pressure,
you know, to be a certain way to be safe.
And I wanted them to feelsafe and feel cool dancing.
(12:00):
So I started opening up our garage
and inviting their friends in.
And we turned it into aviolence prevention program.
And all of those young peopleare doing amazing things in
the community right now.
They've started businesses.
They've started their own organizations.
It's yeah. I mean, give people space,
you know,
give people space and givethem the resources to create
(12:21):
their solutions. Thoseare the most impactful.
We don't need to createsolutions for them.
(gentle music)
- What's challenging foryou and in this work,
and the work that you do?
If anything.
(group laughter)
(12:41):
- Well,
(group laughter)
- How much time you got?
- Right.
(group laughter)
The challenge is defending the changes
that we've been able to make.
The advancements thatwe've been able to make.
It's taking a lot to,
in some ways de-politicizevery political issues and bring
them down to just human experience,
(13:05):
right?
Like really humanizing what wesee happening and whether or
not this is the right wayfor us to address a problem.
You know, we do that in,
in conversations around legislation.
We also do it in community,you know, it, and it's,
it's hard work. Right?
But it's important. And, you know,
being able to create opportunities where
(13:26):
we're able to share stories.
Where will really be ableto help people see the
practical examples ofwhat we're talking about.
It makes a difference.
It's a lot of work just tobring them back, you know,
bring them back to not justthis moment, but you know,
where we are in the directionthat we're trying to go and
(13:46):
get folks to buy in, inshare some consensus.
The, the weight of theseissues are not small.
We're dealing with racism.
We're dealing with statesanctioned violence.
We're dealing with, you know,
all of these huge issuesthat have been compounded
by so many other things.
We're not always gonnaagree on the solution.
Let's at least agree that wehave a problem in the way that
(14:09):
we've been dealingwith. It has not worked.
- Absolutely. In the town hall yesterday.
You were talking about twonew pieces of legislation.
SB 299 and
AB 95.
And I was wondering if youcould just kind of quickly give
an overview of what thoseare and why they're needed.
- So AB 95 is being authoredby Assembly Member Lowe.
(14:29):
And what this bill will do if passed
is it will offer 10 days of
protected time off forbereavement for Californians.
And a lot of folks don't know.
If you're fortunateenough to have an employer
that has a policy, you may be,
you may be able to take up to
three days of bereavement time off.
(14:50):
But there is no statute in thestate of California to give
protected time off for bereavement.
And that's not just for survivors.
That's for, for any loss.
Anyone who loses someone.
So this bill would allow folksto take 10 days of protected
time off from employment togrieve, you know, to plan,
to be with their families, which is huge.
When you layer on someone whohas been a victim of a crime
(15:13):
or lost a loved one to ahorrible event, like a homicide.
Some people have had to goback to work the very next day,
or three days later, or lost their jobs.
Many people have lost their jobs.
So it's an incrediblyimportant bill. And you know,
also again, thinking aboutthe impact of COVID-19,
how many lives have beenlost over this past year.
(15:35):
Folks not having time to,
to take off and grieve or processthat loss is going to have
a profound impact on people'smental health and ability to
navigate their lives.
So, we're really hopingthat that bill continues to
get traction
and passes.
The other a huge bill is
SB 299.
And that bill is carried by Senator Leyva.
(15:58):
And that bill would expandvictim's compensation
to victims of police violence,
and surviving family members of
officer involved shootings.
It would also remove thereporting requirement that
currently exists forvictim's compensation.
Which means that these survivorswould not have to get a
police report in order tosubstantiate their claim.
(16:21):
And that's incredibly important.
What's in the police report,
often states that thisindividual was in commission of a
crime or that they were fearfulthat they would commit a
crime and then they arenot perceived as a victim.
And because they're notperceived as a victim,
they automatically lose eligibility.
There's more to this about, you know,
contact with law enforcement,
(16:44):
even for those who
have not lost theirlives to police violence.
Having contact with lawenforcement creates a huge barrier
to getting access to victims compensation.
As if you can't have both experiences.
(peaceful music)
- It's so clear that while
(17:04):
accountability is really important,
this is a system that's broken.
And it's really hard to
even imagine what
justice could look like.
I don't know that I have anidea of what justice looks like,
but I am curious Tinisch,because you've been doing this
work for such a long time.
If there's an idea that youhold in your mind or in your
(17:24):
heart for
what justice could be in this country.
- That is a question that I sit with
a lot.
And it's hard because
justice as it's currently defined
is not something that I've ever
felt like I've experienced.
And many people who look like me
have never felt likethey've experienced it.
(17:45):
And especially not as it relates to the
criminal legal system.
I think as I grow older and you know,
am processing and healing frommy experiences of, of loss,
losing my brothers and, youknow, on a personal end,
you know,
my family is also having tograpple with how we define
justice for, for one of those losses.
(18:08):
And I think for me personally,
real justice would be full circle closure
that prevents
further harm.
It may not repair theloss, replace the loss,
but it prevents furtherharm from happening.
And in order to achieve that,
we've got to have a very comprehensive,
(18:30):
full circle view and approach.It can not be binary.
It can not be based on guiltand innocence. It cannot be,
you know, extremelyfocused on right or wrong
or punishment.
It has to look at thefull picture and restore.
And so when I think about,you know, my own family,
(18:50):
you know,
sending someone to prisonfor the rest of their lives
doesn't achieve that.
And unfortunately neitherwould revenge. It wouldn't,
it wouldn't achieve that either. You know,
it would continue to perpetuate the harm,
in one way or another.
And so I have not seen
the kind of justice thatI would like to see.
And like to experience.
(19:11):
But I'm hopeful that we canstart to get closer to it
in my lifetime.
And I think that thework that I'm doing and,
you know, the work,
the courageous work that youall have been doing and raising
your voices and helping folks who
probably can't even understand
how someone who has hada very public loss or a
family's had a very public loss like yours
(19:33):
would have a different opinion
about what justice looks like. And,
and what's needed to repairharm. We have work to do,
you know,
to continue that education andto continue to chip away at
these old ideologies that
have not helped us
and have for certain had a
disproportionate impact, you know,
(19:55):
harmful impact on my community,on black communities,
on communities of color.You know, it's important,
even though it's going totake a lot more work to get
everyone to understand.
- That feels both, like,
such a beautiful idea ofwhat justice could be like.
The,
the full circle thatprevents further harm.
(20:15):
And it also feels really integral to what
I imagine healing
looks like for a lot of people.
If I'm being really honest a year ago,
I probably would have told youthat I didn't really believe
in healing or that it wassomething that wasn't for me,
you know,
that it was for other people.
And I'm in my own process, but,
I am curious what, what healing.
(20:37):
How that's shown up for you in your life.
What experiences have
put you on a path of a healing journey.
- And before actually we go there,
I would actually love to ask you, Annie,
something around.
What had you think that it wasn't for you?
Like, just because you hadn't
found something yet, or what?
What had that belief?
- For me,
it felt like the thingthat was important was
(21:00):
trying to undo the harm.
And that's something that I've realized I
can't, I can't do that.
What I can do is try tohelp make things better.
What I felt before wasmore of an immense sense of
responsibility. And now I feel
a clearer choice in how we can try to make
things better.
(21:21):
And that feels more like healing to me.
- The healings, even part of that.
- Yeah.
- As essential.
- Right.
But what I have to prioritizeit in order to do this work.
Yeah.
- I shared some of that with you, Annie,
like a couple years ago.
I didn't have a way to definehealing for myself, for sure.
(21:42):
You know,
I felt like my healing wasgoing to come from understanding
why. Why did this happen?
Why, why my family?
Why does it continue to happen?
In this journey I've definitely shifted
to thinking more about the how.
How does this happen?
How does it continue to happen?
It's a profound shift inthe way you look at it.
Because when I startedlooking at it that way,
(22:05):
it required me to go
back to some of the harm
in a different way.
It allowed me to see
and understand a lot moreof what I experienced.
But it also helped me better understand
the path through it.
You know?
So I think a big partof my healing has been
coming back to myself,
(22:25):
to those experiences into my community.
I've shared many times withfolks that when I lost my
brothers, I left my community.
I felt very betrayed. You know,I'd worked as an organizer,
stood in the gap.
Brought a lot of folks intospaces and into conversations,
but I had to deal withthat betrayal, you know,
and also the challengesthat created in my family.
(22:49):
Healing is somethingI'm constantly defining
and redefining for myself.
But what I know it now tobe is, it's impossible to do
without looking at the how.
And it's impossible to doif you're only isolated on,
on yourself. And what happened to you.
And what it means for you.
- It's so amazing. Those little shifts,
(23:10):
that's something that I'min the process of kind of
discovering for myself too. That there,
there's a different wayof asking a question
that can really
change the way that you relateto an entire issue or your
understanding or the meaningthat you make of a tragedy.
I feel like those are the sortof little, the points on the,
on the path. You know. That aretaking us where we're going.
(23:33):
(upbeat music)
- Survivors have differentexperiences, right?
Around what justice might look like.
Or what their healing process is.
Or, what they want ingeneral. And, you know,
it seems not so controversialto say that really the people
(23:56):
who are most impacted by crimeand violence should be the
ones whose voices are shaping policy.
And yet so many survivors ofviolent crime in particular
survivors of color areignored, you know, in general,
or being told that they'resomehow not real victims. We're,
we'd love to know how doesyour organization actually
managed to invite and integrateso many diverse perspectives
(24:18):
from survivors and ensure thateveryone is being heard while
pursuing also pursuing a, you know,
progressive reform agenda. Like how,
how do you navigate that?
- Such an easy question, Jess.
(group laughter)
- Just how do you do that?
(group laughter)
- Simple. Let me tell you. No,
(24:39):
It's complicated. It's complicated.
You know,
I often say that our,
not only is our justicesystem one size fits none,
but justice is not narrowly defined.
Right? Like to your point,
we experience all differenttypes of injustices
at different levels. Imean, what justice is in one
situation may not be appropriate for,
(24:59):
for the other. But when you'retalking about, you know,
big issues around public safety.
It would make sense to sensorthe people who are least safe.
And most impacted.
Because when we do that, thenwe ensure safety for everyone.
Right? It's it's like the Biblesays the least of us, right?
So if we're, if we're lookingat the needs of the least,
(25:21):
then we're going to meet the needs of,
of folks who are moreresourced just by default.
It doesn't mean that anyone's experience
is
more valuable
than the others, right?
Like, or, or, you know,
everyone's experiencesis real and relevant.
And when it's requiring us to do
(25:43):
in our survivor network is have
real conversations aboutwhat these reforms mean.
You know, in some instances,
reforms could mean areduction in sentence,
for someone who committeda harm. In some instances,
reforms could mean a loss ofenhancements and things that
(26:04):
could result in longersentencing for folks.
But the question is the,
have those approaches delivered on safety?
What mechanisms, youknow, what, what science,
what data we're reusing tojustify those approaches?
And if we look back and we understand
the voices that have kind of driven
decisions around publicsafety, on policing,
(26:27):
on tough on crime,
what we learn is that a lotof those decisions have been
made to protect the interest
and protect individuals who are resourced.
Folks who did not wantto take additional loss.
It didn't mean that they weren't harmed,
but definitely different interms of what they felt the
solution would be because the solution
unfortunately ends up beingat the expense of people
(26:49):
who are less resourced.
And that's what we are tryingto help folks understand.
But it's, it's not aneasy discussion. You know?
And I think that we have togive room for folks to have
differences of opinions.
We have to have a lot oftruth and transparency.
Which is difficult to do.
Like really help peopleunderstand, what does this mean?
(27:09):
Because what's happeningright now is so much of this
conversation aroundreform has been used to
really exploit crime victims and
use them kind of as a political football.
Unfortunately.
- Especially lately. Right?
I mean, especially in LA, thatseems like it's kind of a,
(27:31):
- Yeah.
- A big moment in LA exactly with that.
- Yeah, yeah.
In LA and you know,around other issues too.
I mean, there are veryreal, again, you know,
very real concerns and veryreal challenges. You know,
we have seen upticks in crime in some,
in some areas of the state.
We've seen a rise in violenceagainst the API community.
(27:51):
We've seen rise in homicide.So this, it's true, right?
That there are serious concernsthat we have around public
safety. But this rhetoric,
that criminal justice reformis responsible for what we see
going on
is
wrong.
Like, it's, it can be proven,
like it's wrong. We have data, right?
(28:12):
Like we, we have receipts.
So to say, and so, you know,
just really exploiting
the harm that people have experienced.
Terrible tragic losses.
Things that should've never happened.
And saying that this happenedto you because there are
people out here that are sayingthat people should not be
held accountable whenthey commit a crime is
(28:35):
disgusting.
It's disgusting.
And especially because manyof the voices that are driving
that rhetoric are folkswho are paid to protect
and serve our communities.
And so we have to ask ourselves, like,
what is the interest in here?
What's the vested interestin this conversation?
And what's actually happening is,
(28:57):
as this conversation grows,
if you peel back the layers,it comes down to investment.
What people are doing is tryingto protect the investment
into the systems that carry their jobs,
that validate them in theroles that they're in.
Has very little to do with
delivering justice.
(29:17):
Has very little to do
with giving support to folks.
And how do we know that?
Because the investment's not there.
And even in this conversation right now,
you know,
where folks are going backand forth about reform
being at fault for the harm.
There is no complimentaryconversation about what we need to
do to support victims.
Beyond victims needpolice and law enforcement
(29:40):
to uphold justice for them.
There is no conversation about
meeting their immediate needs.
You know, people gettinghelp with relocation.
Or access to mental health,
or, you know,
funds to offset the costs from lost wages.
Or protecting their housing.
Like none of that is partof this conversation.
Or the rhetoric that we hear.
(30:01):
And so, unfortunately, a victim who has
lost a loved one or a been, you know,
been harmed personally
may not even have the bandwidth,
you know, to understand,
be in a conversation around the details.
What reform has and hasn't done.
They just know they've been hurt,
they've been harmed andthey didn't get help.
(30:22):
And that these folks aresupposed to be responsible for
delivering that help and that justice.
So it's, it's complicated,
but there's a lot of very blackand white facts that we have
to sit with in this moment that
can help people havea better understanding
of where to be in the conversation.
We got to fight throughthe noise to get to that.
(30:44):
(dramatic music)
- You know, obviously inthis work that you're doing,
you're often asked to, you know,
talk about some reallypainful moments in your life.
You know,
I grappled with that inthese conversations because
I'm, I'm really aware of how, you know,
the toll that it takesor how hard it can be
for us to tell our stories.
(31:05):
And I'm wondering ifthere's anything we could do
to honor the needs of survivors,
or lessen the burden
of telling those kindsof stories, you know.
Are there different ways of
framing those questions?
How could we be checking in with folks?
What,
what have you learned fromyour experience of working with
victims and survivors?
(31:25):
- Hmm.
So, oh, I wish I could quote
Dr. Butler, cause she,
she just framed this so well.
There are three ways
or three kind of purposes for survivors
sharing their story
And this kind of really changed the way we
imagine ourselves to be trauma-informed,
but there's really noway you can be prepared,
(31:46):
totally prepared for theimpact of trauma when someone's
recalling their experiences and sharing.
I think it's important tomake sure there's intent,
you know,
the people really being clearon what the intent is behind
sharing their story.
Understanding their own boundaries
and having that self-awareness.
And for folks who
facilitate spaces like this,
(32:08):
just reiterating that, you know,
really making sure thatfolks feel safe with it.
One of my biggestchallenges, just being very,
very vulnerable andtransparent with stepping into
the first role
that I had in the organization,
which was State Director of CSSJ,
(32:28):
was that I would haveto lead with my story.
It gave me a lot of anxiety.
You know, it was,
it was hard enough to stillbe processing and grieving the
losses of my brothers.
And then, you know,
to be leading a statewidenetwork of survivors and victims
and to have to come in andlead with my own experience.
(32:49):
I really had to do some work
to figure out for myselfa safe way to do that.
I mean, there's so much power in,
in telling your own story andreclaiming your narrative,
that we definitely want tocreate more opportunities for
folks to do that. But I thinkgiving them the support,
you know, making sure that folks
(33:10):
really do have good self-care plan.
They also understand boundariesand self-awareness is,
is really critical.
And then what's the intentbehind sharing your story?
Having those clear intentionscoming in definitely helps in
being able to hold the spaceand be able to get it across,
to make change.
- Thank you. And I want toask one more final one too,
(33:30):
which is maybe just a,
a kind of broader
context for that very question, you know.
As, as we are stepping into this movement,
and following leaders like yourself,
I was wondering if youhad any advice for us,
or other people who areinterested in getting involved
in this kind of work.
(33:50):
- I consider you both to beleaders in this movement.
I mean, we're all
stepping into this spacewith a lot of vulnerability,
sharing, very publiclywhat happened to us,
and to our families.
And I think just knowing that it's,
it doesn't have to be perfect.
I think that's one thing tokeep reminding ourselves.
I think the other is that, youknow, there will be fallout.
(34:12):
There will be, you know,
things that won't be shared publicly.
Things that we have to dealwith within our families.
You know, I, and I'm sayingthis because I work on reform,
you know,
and I mentioned earlier thatmy own family is in a fight for
justice and those conversationsbecome very personal,
you know,
so having a lot of grace and compassion,
(34:33):
self-compassion andcompassion for our loved ones,
and folks that may not be there yet.
I think is really important.
It's not our job necessarilyto convince folks.
I think our role is to empowerfolks. And in doing that, we,
you, you, there's someconviction that comes with that.
We empower folks to bevulnerable through what we do,
(34:56):
and that really is thecatalyst for everything else.
Like creating space for vulnerability.
So, just have self-compassion.
Not taking on theresponsibility of changing
everyone's mind or gettingthem on into alignment.
You know. That that willhappen on their own journey.
If it's meant and,
you know, we,
(35:16):
we do the best that we canwith navigating our own healing
and then sharing it withfolks along the way.
That's my lesson learned. That'sthe advice that I can give,
we're going to learn this together.
- This one phrase you said
empowering folks to be vulnerable.
That's, I find that so beautiful.
- Yeah.
I imagine we're going to learn those
(35:37):
lessons over and over and over again.
(laughter)
- It's it's the one.
It's the one peopleunderestimate vulnerability.
It's the toughest thing to do.
- Well, thank you so muchfor this conversation.
It's been a real delight.
- Thank you.
- Yeah. Thank you.
- Thank you so much forjust creating the space
(35:57):
and welcoming me in again.
I have so much respectand appreciation for your
vulnerability and your leadership,
and regardless of how you may see yourself
in this movement, it's critical.
Your voices in whichyou've been able to bring
into the space is sovaluable. So thank you.
So I know it's not easy.
We're in this together,
(36:17):
and this has been areally amazing experience.
And I hope that, you know,
our discussion enlightens, helps, supports
somebody along the way.
- I think it will.
At least it helps us right now.
It's really awesome tobe connected with you.
- And we look forward to more.
- Thank you for joining us forthis episode of New Legacy.
(36:38):
If you'd like to learn moreabout Tinisch, and support the
amazing projects andorganizations that she's leading,
please visit our website atanewlegacy.com to learn more.
- Hello, and welcome to A New Legacy.
I'm Jess Nichol and I'mhere with my sister, Annie.
And in this episode,
we are proud to be featuring
a conversation with Tinisch Hollins.
The reason we picked her asour first conversation is
because Tinisch is a powerful leader
who has been doing grassroots
(00:21):
organizing for her entire life
to support the people in her
community who have needed it most.
- Yeah.
Tinisch is exactly who we wantpeople to listen to and be
guided by in many of the verychallenging issues we're going
to be talking about on this podcast.
- Yeah.
In this conversation,
we'll be discussing the needfor community-based programs
(00:43):
for kids and non-punitiveapproaches to supporting schools
and communities as well as herjourney of redefining justice
and healing for survivors
and the folks mostimpacted by incarceration.
- You know, I think we wereboth really in a place of
kind of listening and taking in
her wisdom in thisconversation because her,
(01:03):
her message is just so rich and important.
And I know it's had a reallylasting impact on us, both.
- Yeah.
- So before we dive in,will you read her bio, Jess?
She's just done so many amazing things.
- Yes.
So,
a crime survivor and a nativeof San Francisco, Tinisch is
the Executive Director ofCalifornians for Safety and
(01:24):
Justice, which is the Alliancefor Safety and Justice's
flagship state-based program.
Tinisch previously served for two years
as CSJ's Associate Director,
as well as the CaliforniaState Director of
Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice.
After starting withthe organization as the
Bay Area Chapter coordinator of CSSJ.
Her leadership helped to passhistoric first in the nation
(01:47):
legislation that extendedemployment leave for all survivors
of violence,
as well as legislation permittingcrime victims to terminate
their leases if they no longerfeel safe in their homes,
following a crime.
Tinisch also played a pivotalleadership role in the defeat
of Proposition 20. Regressiveballot measure on the 2020
California ballot that soughtto repeal numerous successful
(02:10):
criminal justice reforms.
She has been deeplyengaged in the Bay Area,
social justice movementas a community organizer,
policy advocate and systems navigator
for nearly two decades.
Tinisch has worked passionatelyto bring the voices of
survivors to the centerof community engagement
and public policy,
and has advocated tirelesslyfor those voices to guide
(02:30):
decisions, priorities, and resources.
Prior to joining CSJ in 2019,Tinisch served in various
leadership capacities in local government,
including at the San FranciscoHuman Services Agency and in
the San Francisco Mayor'sOffice of Criminal Justice.
- Tinisch,
thank you so much for beingwilling to speak with us today.
We met very briefly on acall like some months ago,
(02:54):
and I remember that yourcompassion and kindness on that
call made a really lastingimpression on me and on,
on both of us.
And so we've been reallylooking forward to this
conversation.
- And your name justcomes up. I don't know,
at least I know like, Tinisch
(laughter)
- This woman. We haveto talk to this woman.
- Totally. And I know thisis a really intense week.
(03:18):
You know, the week when we're recording
this conversation is the same week we saw
a guilty verdictdelivered to Derek Chauvin
for the murder of George Floyd.
Which happened within thesame hour as another police
killing of a 16 year old girl.
And, it's also a nationalcrime survivors week,
which I know is huge for you in CSJ. So,
before we dive in,
I just wanted to see how are you,
(03:40):
how are you doing?
- Well? I mean, I'm,
I'm just really grateful tohave this time with you all.
I just respect your voice
and you sharing your stories
so publicly with all of usand community as survivors.
It really means a lot. Andyeah, this week has been
a lot, you know,
moments of encouragement andthen unfortunately followed by
(04:05):
moments of rage
and despair.
But still hope underneath all of it.
And that's what I'm holding on to.
I think that's what this weekend is about.
Survivors Speak and pulling all of our
survivors together across the country
for a moment of healing,
but also to focus on the waysthat we've turned our pain
into power. So, hopeful and encouraged
(04:25):
in the midst of all this.
- I guess, you know,
an obvious first questionto ask would just be like,
what brought you to this work?
And what meaning does it hold for you?
- So my,
my journey into this work started
when I was young and I
actually had no idea what I was doing,
but I am what they wouldcall a community organizer.
I became what they calla community organizer.
(04:46):
I had no idea that's what I wasdoing at the time. You know,
I grew up in Bay View HuntersPoint in San Francisco,
which is, you know,
a neighborhood that ringsbells like South Central
Los Angeles or Chicago,beautiful communities,
predominantly blackfolks and folks of color.
And unfortunately, you know,
communities that also experiencedhigh rates of violence and
(05:07):
other disparities. So I grewup holding those two truths,
just looking at my communityand knowing how beautiful it,
it was. And many times how Ifelt safer in my community than
anywhere else, but also havingmoments where I felt unsafe.
And unfortunately seen a lotof really terrible things
happen. You know, peoplelosing their lives to violence.
(05:30):
When I saw systems interactingwith my family and with
community that there was thisassumption that no one cared
about safety, no onecared about wellbeing,
no one cared about health or education.
And I just knew that was wrong.
I knew that was, thatI knew that was wrong,
that that assumption was wrong.
(05:50):
And that I also understoodthat a lot of what I saw
happening was happening becausepeople want it to be safe.
People wanted access to help and support
that they just weren't getting.
And so a lot of the solutionsthat were being imposed
on us, where solutionsare actually harmful.
There are punitive. All theissues that I saw happening
around us were being respondedto with harsh punishments.
(06:14):
You know, if your kidsare not going to school,
you're gonna, we're gonna senda truancy officer, you know?
And the parents will be penalized.
Issues with housing?
You're going to beevicted from your housing.
Issues in school?
You're gonna be put outof school or, you know,
placed in detention or suspension.
And I just saw that pattern,
like why is every the responseto every problem punitive?
(06:36):
You know, it's, it's a penalty.
So I spoke up about that andI thought it was important to
bring the voices of the peoplethat were experiencing these
problems and these issues intothe conversation about what
to do about it.
(gentle music)
- So now you're theExecutive Director of CSJ.
(06:58):
(laughter)
From that to this.
- Yeah. There's, you know, lots of,
lots of twists and turns onthat journey from being a,
you know,
a young teenager speaking outagainst the police or speaking
to the police or speaking to,you know, elected officials.
Mayors, folks who came into my community.
And now leading CSJ is a huge honor.
(07:20):
It also feels like, you know,
the right place to be,especially in this moment.
There's so much that
folks don't understand
about criminal justice reform
and what it really means. You know,
I think that they often gettriggered when they hear these
phrases and believe thatwhat we're saying is
we don't want accountability.
(07:41):
That people should getaway with certain things.
And that's not what we're saying.
What we're saying is that wehave pumped billions of dollars
into the system that has failed us.
It's failed to keep us safe.
It's failed to address the rootcauses of the problems that
we are all experiencingand being impacted by.
And that we have to takea different approach.
And one that allows us toaddress the root of the problem,
(08:03):
but also free up resourcesso that we can have responses
that are more comprehensive.
You can't incarcerate our way into safety.
We've proven it.
It's been decades. It won't happen.
And I think in California,we've come a long way.
You know,
that's been evident by theway that folks have voted over
the past couple of years,voting in big reforms,
(08:25):
like Prop 47, Prop 57,
and last year defeating Proposition 20.
And that was in defense ofthe work that has been done
through those other stateballot initiatives to do exactly
what I said, you know.
Which is reduce our relianceon systems that haven't worked
and reinvest those dollarsinto things that actually do
prevent the cycle ofcrime in our communities.
(08:48):
- In terms of the way thatresources can be redirected back
into communities forprevention and for support.
One of the themes that we'veseen in our conversations with
other survivors is the importance of that.
Of those programs. You know,
obviously mental health services,
even just after school programs, sports.
Places where people cango if they want to be safe
(09:11):
or want to have community.
And I was wondering if there are any
programs like that. Thatreally stand out to you.
That you've seen beparticularly impactful.
I think it's just really greatto bring more and more of
those kinds of examples out sothat people can picture them
really clearly.
- Oh yeah. Tons of them.
I mean, I grew up in them in my community.
I work with them and partner with them
(09:32):
outside of CSJ everyday.
The ones that I believe havethe most impact are those who
are led by survivors and peoplewho are directly impacted by
the issues that they're working on.
So we have amazingorganizations in, you know,
throughout California, but youknow, I'm from San Francisco.
So I'm always thinking aboutthe folks that are closest to
the ground here. And wehave organizations like
(09:53):
Inner City Youth, SouthwestDevelopment Corporation,
which is doing amazing work with seniors
and families in the, in OMI.
We have the San Francisco Rebels
and San Francisco Brown Bombers
which have almost threedecades now have been working
directly with young people.
Getting them into sports andsupporting them academically
and giving them access andopportunities to college.
(10:13):
You know, many survivor led organizations.
We're actually launching aninitiative to provide some
support to organizations thatare led by crime survivors.
So they can provide direct cashassistance to crime victims
in their community. And that's huge.
It's huge. You know,
but it's another example ofhow programs and folks on the
(10:35):
ground have had to stand in thegap and supplement the areas
where systems have failedand not been able to meet the
need. You know,
I see it happen all thetime in other communities.
And people see an area thatthey consider to be blight.
They get together and theybuild a community garden.
You know, they repurpose a space.
They launch businesses.
(10:55):
They start organizations and associations.
It's not uncommon, but whenwe do it in our communities,
we don't always get the samesupport and we don't get the
same respect.
You know,
unfortunately there's thisperception that we don't have the
expertise or the bandwidth
to be able to sustain these things.
And the truth is we do them allthe time and we do them with
(11:18):
very little to no resources.
And it's how we keep ourcommunity safe and whole in the
midst of all the other challengesand crisis' that may be
happening within and around us.
And so I'm just happy to, you know,
be able to continue doing that work
in this capacity.
My brothers,
they love to dance and
(11:39):
they used to dance to get girls.
That was their secret.
(laughter)
And they,
but they didn't wantto be known as dancers.
They didn't think it wascool enough, you know,
and in our community, you know,there was a lot of pressure,
you know, to be a certain way to be safe.
And I wanted them to feelsafe and feel cool dancing.
(12:00):
So I started opening up our garage
and inviting their friends in.
And we turned it into aviolence prevention program.
And all of those young peopleare doing amazing things in
the community right now.
They've started businesses.
They've started their own organizations.
It's yeah. I mean, give people space,
you know,
give people space and givethem the resources to create
(12:21):
their solutions. Thoseare the most impactful.
We don't need to createsolutions for them.
(gentle music)
- What's challenging foryou and in this work,
and the work that you do?
If anything.
(group laughter)
(12:41):
- Well,
(group laughter)
- How much time you got?
- Right.
(group laughter)
The challenge is defending the changes
that we've been able to make.
The advancements thatwe've been able to make.
It's taking a lot to,
in some ways de-politicizevery political issues and bring
them down to just human experience,
(13:05):
right?
Like really humanizing what wesee happening and whether or
not this is the right wayfor us to address a problem.
You know, we do that in,
in conversations around legislation.
We also do it in community,you know, it, and it's,
it's hard work. Right?
But it's important. And, you know,
being able to create opportunities where
(13:26):
we're able to share stories.
Where will really be ableto help people see the
practical examples ofwhat we're talking about.
It makes a difference.
It's a lot of work just tobring them back, you know,
bring them back to not justthis moment, but you know,
where we are in the directionthat we're trying to go and
(13:46):
get folks to buy in, inshare some consensus.
The, the weight of theseissues are not small.
We're dealing with racism.
We're dealing with statesanctioned violence.
We're dealing with, you know,
all of these huge issuesthat have been compounded
by so many other things.
We're not always gonnaagree on the solution.
Let's at least agree that wehave a problem in the way that
(14:09):
we've been dealingwith. It has not worked.
- Absolutely. In the town hall yesterday.
You were talking about twonew pieces of legislation.
SB 299 and
AB 95.
And I was wondering if youcould just kind of quickly give
an overview of what thoseare and why they're needed.
- So AB 95 is being authoredby Assembly Member Lowe.
(14:29):
And what this bill will do if passed
is it will offer 10 days of
protected time off forbereavement for Californians.
And a lot of folks don't know.
If you're fortunateenough to have an employer
that has a policy, you may be,
you may be able to take up to
three days of bereavement time off.
(14:50):
But there is no statute in thestate of California to give
protected time off for bereavement.
And that's not just for survivors.
That's for, for any loss.
Anyone who loses someone.
So this bill would allow folksto take 10 days of protected
time off from employment togrieve, you know, to plan,
to be with their families, which is huge.
When you layer on someone whohas been a victim of a crime
(15:13):
or lost a loved one to ahorrible event, like a homicide.
Some people have had to goback to work the very next day,
or three days later, or lost their jobs.
Many people have lost their jobs.
So it's an incrediblyimportant bill. And you know,
also again, thinking aboutthe impact of COVID-19,
how many lives have beenlost over this past year.
(15:35):
Folks not having time to,
to take off and grieve or processthat loss is going to have
a profound impact on people'smental health and ability to
navigate their lives.
So, we're really hopingthat that bill continues to
get traction
and passes.
The other a huge bill is
SB 299.
And that bill is carried by Senator Leyva.
(15:58):
And that bill would expandvictim's compensation
to victims of police violence,
and surviving family members of
officer involved shootings.
It would also remove thereporting requirement that
currently exists forvictim's compensation.
Which means that these survivorswould not have to get a
police report in order tosubstantiate their claim.
(16:21):
And that's incredibly important.
What's in the police report,
often states that thisindividual was in commission of a
crime or that they were fearfulthat they would commit a
crime and then they arenot perceived as a victim.
And because they're notperceived as a victim,
they automatically lose eligibility.
There's more to this about, you know,
contact with law enforcement,
(16:44):
even for those who
have not lost theirlives to police violence.
Having contact with lawenforcement creates a huge barrier
to getting access to victims compensation.
As if you can't have both experiences.
(peaceful music)
- It's so clear that while
(17:04):
accountability is really important,
this is a system that's broken.
And it's really hard to
even imagine what
justice could look like.
I don't know that I have anidea of what justice looks like,
but I am curious Tinisch,because you've been doing this
work for such a long time.
If there's an idea that youhold in your mind or in your
(17:24):
heart for
what justice could be in this country.
- That is a question that I sit with
a lot.
And it's hard because
justice as it's currently defined
is not something that I've ever
felt like I've experienced.
And many people who look like me
have never felt likethey've experienced it.
(17:45):
And especially not as it relates to the
criminal legal system.
I think as I grow older and you know,
am processing and healing frommy experiences of, of loss,
losing my brothers and, youknow, on a personal end,
you know,
my family is also having tograpple with how we define
justice for, for one of those losses.
(18:08):
And I think for me personally,
real justice would be full circle closure
that prevents
further harm.
It may not repair theloss, replace the loss,
but it prevents furtherharm from happening.
And in order to achieve that,
we've got to have a very comprehensive,
(18:30):
full circle view and approach.It can not be binary.
It can not be based on guiltand innocence. It cannot be,
you know, extremelyfocused on right or wrong
or punishment.
It has to look at thefull picture and restore.
And so when I think about,you know, my own family,
(18:50):
you know,
sending someone to prisonfor the rest of their lives
doesn't achieve that.
And unfortunately neitherwould revenge. It wouldn't,
it wouldn't achieve that either. You know,
it would continue to perpetuate the harm,
in one way or another.
And so I have not seen
the kind of justice thatI would like to see.
And like to experience.
(19:11):
But I'm hopeful that we canstart to get closer to it
in my lifetime.
And I think that thework that I'm doing and,
you know, the work,
the courageous work that youall have been doing and raising
your voices and helping folks who
probably can't even understand
how someone who has hada very public loss or a
family's had a very public loss like yours
(19:33):
would have a different opinion
about what justice looks like. And,
and what's needed to repairharm. We have work to do,
you know,
to continue that education andto continue to chip away at
these old ideologies that
have not helped us
and have for certain had a
disproportionate impact, you know,
(19:55):
harmful impact on my community,on black communities,
on communities of color.You know, it's important,
even though it's going totake a lot more work to get
everyone to understand.
- That feels both, like,
such a beautiful idea ofwhat justice could be like.
The,
the full circle thatprevents further harm.
(20:15):
And it also feels really integral to what
I imagine healing
looks like for a lot of people.
If I'm being really honest a year ago,
I probably would have told youthat I didn't really believe
in healing or that it wassomething that wasn't for me,
you know,
that it was for other people.
And I'm in my own process, but,
I am curious what, what healing.
(20:37):
How that's shown up for you in your life.
What experiences have
put you on a path of a healing journey.
- And before actually we go there,
I would actually love to ask you, Annie,
something around.
What had you think that it wasn't for you?
Like, just because you hadn't
found something yet, or what?
What had that belief?
- For me,
it felt like the thingthat was important was
(21:00):
trying to undo the harm.
And that's something that I've realized I
can't, I can't do that.
What I can do is try tohelp make things better.
What I felt before wasmore of an immense sense of
responsibility. And now I feel
a clearer choice in how we can try to make
things better.
(21:21):
And that feels more like healing to me.
- The healings, even part of that.
- Yeah.
- As essential.
- Right.
But what I have to prioritizeit in order to do this work.
Yeah.
- I shared some of that with you, Annie,
like a couple years ago.
I didn't have a way to definehealing for myself, for sure.
(21:42):
You know,
I felt like my healing wasgoing to come from understanding
why. Why did this happen?
Why, why my family?
Why does it continue to happen?
In this journey I've definitely shifted
to thinking more about the how.
How does this happen?
How does it continue to happen?
It's a profound shift inthe way you look at it.
Because when I startedlooking at it that way,
(22:05):
it required me to go
back to some of the harm
in a different way.
It allowed me to see
and understand a lot moreof what I experienced.
But it also helped me better understand
the path through it.
You know?
So I think a big partof my healing has been
coming back to myself,
(22:25):
to those experiences into my community.
I've shared many times withfolks that when I lost my
brothers, I left my community.
I felt very betrayed. You know,I'd worked as an organizer,
stood in the gap.
Brought a lot of folks intospaces and into conversations,
but I had to deal withthat betrayal, you know,
and also the challengesthat created in my family.
(22:49):
Healing is somethingI'm constantly defining
and redefining for myself.
But what I know it now tobe is, it's impossible to do
without looking at the how.
And it's impossible to doif you're only isolated on,
on yourself. And what happened to you.
And what it means for you.
- It's so amazing. Those little shifts,
(23:10):
that's something that I'min the process of kind of
discovering for myself too. That there,
there's a different wayof asking a question
that can really
change the way that you relateto an entire issue or your
understanding or the meaningthat you make of a tragedy.
I feel like those are the sortof little, the points on the,
on the path. You know. That aretaking us where we're going.
(23:33):
(upbeat music)
- Survivors have differentexperiences, right?
Around what justice might look like.
Or what their healing process is.
Or, what they want ingeneral. And, you know,
it seems not so controversialto say that really the people
(23:56):
who are most impacted by crimeand violence should be the
ones whose voices are shaping policy.
And yet so many survivors ofviolent crime in particular
survivors of color areignored, you know, in general,
or being told that they'resomehow not real victims. We're,
we'd love to know how doesyour organization actually
managed to invite and integrateso many diverse perspectives
(24:18):
from survivors and ensure thateveryone is being heard while
pursuing also pursuing a, you know,
progressive reform agenda. Like how,
how do you navigate that?
- Such an easy question, Jess.
(group laughter)
- Just how do you do that?
(group laughter)
- Simple. Let me tell you. No,
(24:39):
It's complicated. It's complicated.
You know,
I often say that our,
not only is our justicesystem one size fits none,
but justice is not narrowly defined.
Right? Like to your point,
we experience all differenttypes of injustices
at different levels. Imean, what justice is in one
situation may not be appropriate for,
(24:59):
for the other. But when you'retalking about, you know,
big issues around public safety.
It would make sense to sensorthe people who are least safe.
And most impacted.
Because when we do that, thenwe ensure safety for everyone.
Right? It's it's like the Biblesays the least of us, right?
So if we're, if we're lookingat the needs of the least,
(25:21):
then we're going to meet the needs of,
of folks who are moreresourced just by default.
It doesn't mean that anyone's experience
is
more valuable
than the others, right?
Like, or, or, you know,
everyone's experiencesis real and relevant.
And when it's requiring us to do
(25:43):
in our survivor network is have
real conversations aboutwhat these reforms mean.
You know, in some instances,
reforms could mean areduction in sentence,
for someone who committeda harm. In some instances,
reforms could mean a loss ofenhancements and things that
(26:04):
could result in longersentencing for folks.
But the question is the,
have those approaches delivered on safety?
What mechanisms, youknow, what, what science,
what data we're reusing tojustify those approaches?
And if we look back and we understand
the voices that have kind of driven
decisions around publicsafety, on policing,
(26:27):
on tough on crime,
what we learn is that a lotof those decisions have been
made to protect the interest
and protect individuals who are resourced.
Folks who did not wantto take additional loss.
It didn't mean that they weren't harmed,
but definitely different interms of what they felt the
solution would be because the solution
unfortunately ends up beingat the expense of people
(26:49):
who are less resourced.
And that's what we are tryingto help folks understand.
But it's, it's not aneasy discussion. You know?
And I think that we have togive room for folks to have
differences of opinions.
We have to have a lot oftruth and transparency.
Which is difficult to do.
Like really help peopleunderstand, what does this mean?
(27:09):
Because what's happeningright now is so much of this
conversation aroundreform has been used to
really exploit crime victims and
use them kind of as a political football.
Unfortunately.
- Especially lately. Right?
I mean, especially in LA, thatseems like it's kind of a,
(27:31):
- Yeah.
- A big moment in LA exactly with that.
- Yeah, yeah.
In LA and you know,around other issues too.
I mean, there are veryreal, again, you know,
very real concerns and veryreal challenges. You know,
we have seen upticks in crime in some,
in some areas of the state.
We've seen a rise in violenceagainst the API community.
(27:51):
We've seen rise in homicide.So this, it's true, right?
That there are serious concernsthat we have around public
safety. But this rhetoric,
that criminal justice reformis responsible for what we see
going on
is
wrong.
Like, it's, it can be proven,
like it's wrong. We have data, right?
(28:12):
Like we, we have receipts.
So to say, and so, you know,
just really exploiting
the harm that people have experienced.
Terrible tragic losses.
Things that should've never happened.
And saying that this happenedto you because there are
people out here that are sayingthat people should not be
held accountable whenthey commit a crime is
(28:35):
disgusting.
It's disgusting.
And especially because manyof the voices that are driving
that rhetoric are folkswho are paid to protect
and serve our communities.
And so we have to ask ourselves, like,
what is the interest in here?
What's the vested interestin this conversation?
And what's actually happening is,
(28:57):
as this conversation grows,
if you peel back the layers,it comes down to investment.
What people are doing is tryingto protect the investment
into the systems that carry their jobs,
that validate them in theroles that they're in.
Has very little to do with
delivering justice.
(29:17):
Has very little to do
with giving support to folks.
And how do we know that?
Because the investment's not there.
And even in this conversation right now,
you know,
where folks are going backand forth about reform
being at fault for the harm.
There is no complimentaryconversation about what we need to
do to support victims.
Beyond victims needpolice and law enforcement
(29:40):
to uphold justice for them.
There is no conversation about
meeting their immediate needs.
You know, people gettinghelp with relocation.
Or access to mental health,
or, you know,
funds to offset the costs from lost wages.
Or protecting their housing.
Like none of that is partof this conversation.
Or the rhetoric that we hear.
(30:01):
And so, unfortunately, a victim who has
lost a loved one or a been, you know,
been harmed personally
may not even have the bandwidth,
you know, to understand,
be in a conversation around the details.
What reform has and hasn't done.
They just know they've been hurt,
they've been harmed andthey didn't get help.
(30:22):
And that these folks aresupposed to be responsible for
delivering that help and that justice.
So it's, it's complicated,
but there's a lot of very blackand white facts that we have
to sit with in this moment that
can help people havea better understanding
of where to be in the conversation.
We got to fight throughthe noise to get to that.
(30:44):
(dramatic music)
- You know, obviously inthis work that you're doing,
you're often asked to, you know,
talk about some reallypainful moments in your life.
You know,
I grappled with that inthese conversations because
I'm, I'm really aware of how, you know,
the toll that it takesor how hard it can be
for us to tell our stories.
(31:05):
And I'm wondering ifthere's anything we could do
to honor the needs of survivors,
or lessen the burden
of telling those kindsof stories, you know.
Are there different ways of
framing those questions?
How could we be checking in with folks?
What,
what have you learned fromyour experience of working with
victims and survivors?
(31:25):
- Hmm.
So, oh, I wish I could quote
Dr. Butler, cause she,
she just framed this so well.
There are three ways
or three kind of purposes for survivors
sharing their story
And this kind of really changed the way we
imagine ourselves to be trauma-informed,
but there's really noway you can be prepared,
(31:46):
totally prepared for theimpact of trauma when someone's
recalling their experiences and sharing.
I think it's important tomake sure there's intent,
you know,
the people really being clearon what the intent is behind
sharing their story.
Understanding their own boundaries
and having that self-awareness.
And for folks who
facilitate spaces like this,
(32:08):
just reiterating that, you know,
really making sure thatfolks feel safe with it.
One of my biggestchallenges, just being very,
very vulnerable andtransparent with stepping into
the first role
that I had in the organization,
which was State Director of CSSJ,
(32:28):
was that I would haveto lead with my story.
It gave me a lot of anxiety.
You know, it was,
it was hard enough to stillbe processing and grieving the
losses of my brothers.
And then, you know,
to be leading a statewidenetwork of survivors and victims
and to have to come in andlead with my own experience.
(32:49):
I really had to do some work
to figure out for myselfa safe way to do that.
I mean, there's so much power in,
in telling your own story andreclaiming your narrative,
that we definitely want tocreate more opportunities for
folks to do that. But I thinkgiving them the support,
you know, making sure that folks
(33:10):
really do have good self-care plan.
They also understand boundariesand self-awareness is,
is really critical.
And then what's the intentbehind sharing your story?
Having those clear intentionscoming in definitely helps in
being able to hold the spaceand be able to get it across,
to make change.
- Thank you. And I want toask one more final one too,
(33:30):
which is maybe just a,
a kind of broader
context for that very question, you know.
As, as we are stepping into this movement,
and following leaders like yourself,
I was wondering if youhad any advice for us,
or other people who areinterested in getting involved
in this kind of work.
(33:50):
- I consider you both to beleaders in this movement.
I mean, we're all
stepping into this spacewith a lot of vulnerability,
sharing, very publiclywhat happened to us,
and to our families.
And I think just knowing that it's,
it doesn't have to be perfect.
I think that's one thing tokeep reminding ourselves.
I think the other is that, youknow, there will be fallout.
(34:12):
There will be, you know,
things that won't be shared publicly.
Things that we have to dealwith within our families.
You know, I, and I'm sayingthis because I work on reform,
you know,
and I mentioned earlier thatmy own family is in a fight for
justice and those conversationsbecome very personal,
you know,
so having a lot of grace and compassion,
(34:33):
self-compassion andcompassion for our loved ones,
and folks that may not be there yet.
I think is really important.
It's not our job necessarilyto convince folks.
I think our role is to empowerfolks. And in doing that, we,
you, you, there's someconviction that comes with that.
We empower folks to bevulnerable through what we do,
(34:56):
and that really is thecatalyst for everything else.
Like creating space for vulnerability.
So, just have self-compassion.
Not taking on theresponsibility of changing
everyone's mind or gettingthem on into alignment.
You know. That that willhappen on their own journey.
If it's meant and,
you know, we,
(35:16):
we do the best that we canwith navigating our own healing
and then sharing it withfolks along the way.
That's my lesson learned. That'sthe advice that I can give,
we're going to learn this together.
- This one phrase you said
empowering folks to be vulnerable.
That's, I find that so beautiful.
- Yeah.
I imagine we're going to learn those
(35:37):
lessons over and over and over again.
(laughter)
- It's it's the one.
It's the one peopleunderestimate vulnerability.
It's the toughest thing to do.
- Well, thank you so muchfor this conversation.
It's been a real delight.
- Thank you.
- Yeah. Thank you.
- Thank you so much forjust creating the space
(35:57):
and welcoming me in again.
I have so much respectand appreciation for your
vulnerability and your leadership,
and regardless of how you may see yourself
in this movement, it's critical.
Your voices in whichyou've been able to bring
into the space is sovaluable. So thank you.
So I know it's not easy.
We're in this together,
(36:17):
and this has been areally amazing experience.
And I hope that, you know,
our discussion enlightens, helps, supports
somebody along the way.
- I think it will.
At least it helps us right now.
It's really awesome tobe connected with you.
- And we look forward to more.
- Thank you for joining us forthis episode of New Legacy.
(36:38):
If you'd like to learn moreabout Tinisch, and support the
amazing projects andorganizations that she's leading,
please visit our website atanewlegacy.com to learn more.
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