June 9, 2020 • 38 mins
America is battling two deadly pandemics. Is this a moment for hope or despair? Kelley asks her two co-hosts and close friends, Cindy and Tanvir—both from cultures with a history of white oppression, but on opposite sides of the planet—to weigh in on the current moment and that other virus that has infected America from the beginning: racism.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelley Lynch (00:03):
We're usually the people who are talking to you
about life during the pandemic.
And where do we go from here?
But given what's going on in theworld today, the marches we're
seeing in countries around theworld protesting the treatment
of African Americans in America,we thought it was really
(00:25):
important to talk about thatother virus that has devastated
this country from the beginning.
Cindy Sealls (00:31):
You Mean Racism?
Kelley Lynch (00:40):
the other night, it must've been about 11:30.
I heard this screaming comingfrom somewhere down the street,
there came a louder one andallowed her one, uh, turned out
it was the house next door.
And there was somebody justscreaming, like they were being
attacked.
(01:03):
And so we were faced with kindof like, what do we do?
And I said, we're going to callnine one one.
You know?
I mean, what else are we goingto do?
Then the police were coming andwe kind of backed off two days
ago.
He happened to see the guy who'sin that house.
(01:25):
There was no way that he wasattacking anybody in my mind,
but I know that they had had anintruder once before.
So I had to, I said to him, Iwas like, man, I'm so sorry.
I called the police, but I, whatwas going on?
And he said, I actually, it wasmy girlfriend and his girlfriend
(01:50):
is it's African-American and hesaid she was responding to all
the stuff that's going on.
And she just, she just couldn'thandle it anymore.
And I mean, literally these arethe sounds that you would make
if someone was being murdered infront of your eyes, which I
(02:11):
guess is exactly what has beenhappening.
It is on TV or on your computerscreen or on your phone.
But I wanted to ask you Cindy,in particular, how this is
impacting you personally,
Cindy Sealls (02:29):
I guess, for me, and I can totally understand
her.
She's a younger much youngerwoman than I am.
And just, I think just livingthrough history and crying a
bucket load of tears, overdifferent, different things that
have happened.
There's some something happeneda while ago.
Uh, I think it was like a yearago.
I can't remember what it was,but we were walking and I just
(02:53):
said to Kelly, why do whitepeople hate us so much?
And she said, I don't thinkthat's true.
And I said, yeah, it's true.
I said, you know, they just dostuff to us.
That makes no sense to me.
(03:15):
I've been thinking about howthis country was founded, the
principles that it was foundedon and how they had to, because
it was founded on quote unquote,you know, principles of
equality, but they weren'ttreating everybody equally.
Um, they, I don't think they didit conscious consciously.
(03:38):
I think it was an unconsciousway of dealing with this, this,
um, situation of supposedly thisis the, uh, equal place for
every person, but then nottreating everybody equally, not
treating the native Americans ashuman beings, not treating the
(03:59):
blacks as human beings, nottreating women, um, the same
way.
Uh, so there's, there's, I thinkthere's always been there, this
conflict in the soul and spiritof America of having this ideal,
but not living the ideal.
And I think say you're just aregular person and you're a
(04:23):
pastor.
So, and so you, you care aboutthis flock, but then you're
abusing kids or something likethat.
I mean, you cannot be a happyand satisfied person.
You have got to be a person witha lot of craziness in your soul
when that is going on.
(04:44):
And I think that's, that's, youknow, that's unfortunately the
sin, the original sin ofAmerica.
Um, and I think it's, it's beingborn out in all of these
different conflicts because youknow, America, isn't just in
conflict with black people.
(05:04):
It's citizens, it's in conflictwith the world, you know, it's
in conflict with othercountries.
Um, the, the way that we'vetreated other countries, the way
that we've looked at othercitizens of other countries, the
way we send drones over to, youknow, kill, like not seeing
(05:25):
other people as human.
I think that's the thing.
And for us, you know, it's been400 years of this, of not seeing
us as human.
And it's just, it's sodepressing.
But I have hope, I have hope andI hope what my hope is and
seeing these protests.
(05:46):
And I was telling, I think Itold you about this Kelly.
We were talking about this, thatthe hope I see is when I see
these people, the people whowere involved in the protest,
and it's a multi ethnic crowdthat gives me hope because in
the sixties, there were somewhite people, but most of the
(06:08):
crowd, 95%, 96% were blackpeople.
This crowd that I see, it lookslike it might be 30, 40% people
of other ethnicities who aresaying now, okay, we're done
with how you're treating thesepeople we're done with that.
(06:30):
This we hope I hope will be anew normal will, will bring us
to a new normal and how blackpeople are perceived and treated
in this country.
That's my hope I'm being, I'mgoing to be optimistic about
this whole thing.
Optimism is good.
(06:50):
Yeah.
And I hope that it also pushesus to behave in a different
manner toward people in othercountries, especially in
countries where there are peopleof color.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (07:07):
Kelley should remember that we went to
Cox's buzzer and seeing Kelly'sskin, a white person at the
beach, a 10th grader came to usand he wanted to go to America
because he has seen from themovies that that's the place to
be.
Kelley Lynch (07:27):
People always are like—young people, especially—I
want to go to America.
I want to be in America.
Can you sponsor me to go toAmerica?
I mean, it's, it would be anaberration not to meet people
like that.
Well, how does that make youfeel?
(07:47):
Maybe if you were of a certainpolitical persuasion that might
make you stick your chest out alittle bit, you know, about
being an American, like I'm herein this country and people are
coming up to me and asking me tocome to my country.
That's how great my country isfor me.
(08:11):
I'm just going to be honest withyou.
I've had to stand up in front ofclasses, in schools and other
things.
And, and what I tell them isit's not what it looks like on
television or on, you know, orin the movies.
It's not that place.
(08:33):
I've talked to too many peoplehere who have immigrated from
other countries and they'reworking two, three jobs trying
to make ends meet.
And the view from abroad is thatthose people are making a lot of
(08:53):
money and they have everythingthey want.
But the view from within, fromthose immigrants themselves is,
is very different.
Um, it's not an easy life beinghere and there are these
tensions.
And I don't think I don't wantto sugar coat that for people,
(09:19):
honestly, at this moment, if youwere to ask me what I see is
we're standing on the worldstage with our pants down, it's
pretty embarrassing.
So then some kid says to me,Hey, I want to go there.
I would have to say Why?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (09:39):
It's the movies that have made everybody
believe that, America is thisshiny space.
This make believe fools the restof the world.
It also fools some people in US,probably.
(10:01):
That's why this whole thingsuddenly is kind of a wake up
call because this racism issuehas been there for 300, 400
years.
You know why occasionally peoplerise up and then again it's
subsides?
Because it's not addressed as anissue or as a serious major
(10:28):
problem,
Kelley Lynch (10:30):
Although we are making America great again—
Speaker 6 (10:36):
All that glitters right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Isn't gold.
It's, it's the, the notion ofAmerican dream.
It's a dream for all the peopleliving in places or in countries
where, uh, the system kind ofpushes them so that they cannot
(11:03):
live up to their expectation ortheir potential, I'd say, so
this situation truly takes awaythat idea or that dream—that
hope.
(11:30):
It's kind of a loss for peopleall over the world, because it
negates the hope that, anybodycan be anything and anybody can
rise up to any level justbecause they have the potential
(11:50):
or they have the ability to doso,
Kelley Lynch (11:55):
so is it that it shows that if you are a person
of a certain color, sorry, thatdream is closed off to you, is
that right?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:07):
Yeah.
It, it, it, the reality is notsomething that we want to see
because it takes away that hope.
Kelley Lynch (12:18):
So it's kinda like the movies.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:20):
Exactly.
Kelley Lynch (12:21):
You want to see the movie version of the police
police brutality where there'sa, there's a happy ending.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:29):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Kelley Lynch (12:30):
Have you seen that movie Cindy?
Cindy Sealls (12:33):
I have not seen that movie.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:37):
No, it's, it's, it's, it's more like, it's
not a happy ending, but it'smore like, you want to believe
that even if you come from adifferent ethnicity,[inaudible]
in the end, justice prevails,but in reality, that is not
(12:58):
happening.
That's what we are seeing.
So that's like the mosttroublesome part.
Now, standing here.
I definitely think that, thatyou show an image with makeup
and glitter to the rest of theworld so that you can dictate
(13:20):
them.
You can convince them, you canmake them do whatever you want
them to do.
For instance, you know, likehere in Bangladesh, the US
Embassy was talking aboutdemocracy and human rights and
governance and things like that.
But now, you know, thatdiscussion or that preaching,
(13:48):
this shows how hollow that was.
They should look at their ownbackyard.
It takes me back to BritishIndia.
(14:09):
It's the same kind of thing.
Dividing and ruling through theidea of Hindus versus the
Muslims.
It's the same.
Instead of dividing people basedon their skin color, you are
dividing based on their belief.
It's the same thing, the Britishsupported one group against
another so they could extractwhatever resources they could
(14:32):
from this land and makethemselves rich.
Same thing is happening.
Who is benefiting from all t hisin the States?
Seeing a military uniform in thecapital city has a different
meaning to us because we are sofamiliar with that concept,
(14:56):
especially with Bangladesh beinga third world country.
This is pretty common.
You see military uniform in acapital city, only when the
democracy has gone and themilitary has taken over the
whole system.
It reminds us of that.
(15:17):
The consequences of that, we areso familiar with that.
We have seen that in our countryand around the world, you don't
have any idea how that life is,where you are stripped of all
your freedom, just by the whimof a few people.
Seeing the same thing happeningto your place, it made me sad
(15:43):
because I know what lies on theother side of that.
Cindy Sealls (15:52):
This is what I say
what has happened for, for blackpeople?
Yes.
This police thing is still goingon.
There's a lot of discriminationthat's still going on, but we
have made a lot of progress as apeople in this society.
(16:17):
So the year that I was born, in1961.
If you lived basically belowWashington, DC, which is about
half of the country, youcouldn't go on a bus as a black
person.
You couldn't go on a bus thatran through the states like a
(16:39):
regular old bus line.
Even if you paid your ticket,you had to sit certain places on
and certain transportation.
You couldn't go to certainstores.
Like for instance, my parents,had to go to segregated schools.
My dad was born in the North sohe was, he had a much better
(17:02):
time than my mom.
Even though her dad was a doctorand they had resources, they
still had to abide by the rules.
Jim Crow.
And black people knew it.
They just followed the rules totried to stay out of trouble.
You know, some of them would getin trouble.
(17:22):
There was a group of vigilantesnamed the KU Klux Klan who
literally had free reign to beable to go anywhere and do
anything, to black people, or towhite people who helped the
black people.
So the white people, even ifthey didn't agree with all this
(17:45):
stuff, had to abide by rules,because if they didn't, they
were going to be in trouble withthe rest of the white people.
This is all in my lifetime sinceI've been born.
So like, for instance, me andKelly, we would not be able to
go to her, her home in Texas.
Kelley Lynch (18:07):
That's right.
Like last summer.
Cindy Sealls (18:08):
The only way we would know each other is if we
worked somewhere together andshe would probably be in a much
higher role.
So we probably would never havemet each other because I would
be in a more subservient role atwhatever job I was at.
So there wasn't even, therewouldn't be even any likelihood
(18:28):
that we would ever have met.
We might live in the sameneighborhood, but that was
extremely rare.
Kelley Lynch (18:37):
So red lining had finished...
Cindy Sealls (18:39):
Right.
But still the bank stillwouldn't give black people
loans.
I mean, you know, the banksdecide here who lives, where,
so, you know, it's just so manythings have just changed just in
my lifetime, that I have hope.
And I have hope because I thinkthe beauty of America is the
(19:03):
optimism of the people whofounded the country.
I don't think they meant that itwas actually for everybody, but
because of the way they wrotethe constitution, where Congress
could change it, if they felt soled, it enables more people to
be able to partake in theopportunities that are available
(19:28):
here.
And that's why I think everybodywants to come here because it
isn't like that in other places.
And no, it's not perfect andnothing's ever perfect.
And we just have to keep workingon it.
And sometimes, unfortunately ithas to come to this.
So I understand t hat you're notoptimistic Tanvir, but I am
(19:49):
knowing the history of thiscountry.
I just believe in human beingsand I think human beings, they
don't realize it, but I think they're more good than bad.
I think the religions tell t hemthat that's not true, but I
think if you look at humanhistory and what used to go on
in human history and where weare now, even though it's not
(20:10):
perfect, and it can be reallybad for people—most of us want
to believe that others of us arekind caring human beings.
And that's what we want to be too to others.
I just believe that.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I honestly hope that Cindy's wish comes true in
almost every 10 years, we havegone through, um,
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (20:48):
Next year, we will be celebrating our
50th anniversary ofindependence.
We have seen the very people whofought during the independence.
They started fighting amongthemselves just after four or
five years of liberation.
(21:10):
And then we have seen themilitary takeover of the
country, of the politics.
And then we had a dictator for10 years.
And in nineties, we took downthe dictator and started our
journey towards democracy.
(21:32):
So I have seen this rollercoaster ride in our country and,
and the effect of it on thepeople.
It's almost every 10 years, wehad to fight for a better future
for our children.
The reason that I have for notbeing optimistic about your
situation is that you haveentrusted the police with so
(21:56):
much responsibility and do carryout those responsibilities.
You have entrusted them with somuch power that one day it bites
back.
We don't have any examples wherewe see that an authoritarian
establishment makes life better.
(22:16):
It never happened.
I see the same trend in yourcountry.
Just one example.
See how many journalists wereattacked deliberately by police.
Kelley Lynch (22:27):
Yeah, that's right.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (22:29):
That's a tell tale sign.
If you can stop journalists fromspreading the news, there is no
news.
That's why they're targeting thejournalists.
That's, that's one of thebiggest worries that I have.
You know, we see in our country,that's the norm.
The first target is always thejournalists or the media.
(22:54):
If you can control the media,the rest of the people you can
control easily.
The media is controlled by thecorporates.
It no longer represents the masspeople— all over the world.
Especially in the US, the mediais owned by people with money.
(23:15):
People with power.
What results is that you startself-censoring.
You start judging yourself that,okay, I should not be talking
(23:37):
about this because that may harmmy family.
Not me.
If it was only us we would beable to take more risks.
But when it comes to yourfamily, I'm sure none of you
will take the same risk if youknow that if you do something,
or if you say something, yourchildren will be harmed.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
That's a terror.
You're trying to spread the fearamong the media.
That's a really bad sign.
Cindy Sealls (24:07):
I'll agree with you in that.
And I blame the president of theUnited States because every
chance he gets, he criticizesthe media, calls them, liars,
says to his people that they aretrying to take over, or they're
(24:28):
trying to destroy him.
And that's just amping up theanimosity towards the press.
And you know, that some of thosepeople that support him are in
the police force.
I mean, you know, there's gottabe,
Kelley Lynch (24:46):
but the police unions, I mean, he was, that was
his thing, right.
I mean, he was supported by thepolice unions even as he got
elected.
Cindy Sealls (24:54):
Yeah.
But I mean, I was just thinking,I mean, if 63 million people
voted for him, there's some ofthem have got to be police
officers, you know, and I, youknow, Tanvir, I mean, I totally
get you, but I really believe inthe capability of the people in
(25:16):
America to be able to fightagainst authoritarianism.
And it's kinda weird because nowwe have this whole narrative now
both on the extreme, right andon the extreme left that this
(25:38):
country is becoming like that,
Kelley Lynch (25:40):
But they can't agree on why.
So one side, says, it's thesocialists and the communists
who are causing this thing.
And the other side says, it'sDonald Trump and his ilk who are
bringing on thisauthoritarianism.
Everybody's afraid of the samething.
But they point to two totallydifferent causes.
Cindy Sealls (26:01):
I mean, cause yeah, that's the confusing thing
with us like this, this wholething is coming from the extreme
ends of the political spectrum.
So we don't really know what tobelieve.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (26:14):
In the beginning.
Probably we had extremists inboth sides, but after 10 years
of independence, they were nottoo far on the edge.
We had institutions there, butthey supported the authoritarian
power structure just to maximizetheir benefits.
(26:38):
So basically it was, I wouldsay, it's the institutions that
were corrupted by theindividuals.
Cindy Sealls (26:47):
So can you, can you tell us what you foresee for
us given what's going on in ourcountry?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (26:54):
There is no easy way out when people
start dying next to you, thatpeople, you know, only then you
will start reacting.
I sincerely hope it doesn't cometo that.
If you look at the globalscenario, look at Hong Kong, how
the Chinese is taking over HongKong and how nobody talks
(27:16):
anymore because the people whowere protesting vanished.
So there was nobody in thestreet to protest this, you
know, the latest change thatChina has made to Hong Kong's
legislation.
You have started going down thatpath.
I was reading about this articleabout in DC data.
(27:38):
So many unmarked law enforcementpersonnel, like nobody knows
which agency they come from, butthey are dead.
So you make them anonymous andthat gives them the power to go
beyond the law.
(27:59):
You cannot actually identify whofired the shot towards you.
So, you don't have any way toprosecute them.
So that's where the law andorder situation or the rule of
law becomes fake.
(28:22):
The present generation, thatincludes ours as well, has a
memory of a goldfish.
We will forget in three daystime or one week's time or one
month's time.
And we will move on,
Cindy Sealls (28:37):
But not the three of us.
So there's hope.
Because I know we're not theonly ones.
There's hope you guys.
There is hope.
Working together, when peoplerealize we're in this together
and it's, I mean, I don't wantto say it's us against them, but
you know, it i s the people whocare about the masses as opposed
(29:01):
to people who don't.
A nd I don't know if they do ordon't, but they don't seem to
care about the masses.
And I just think that, you know,especially with this technology
that we have, that we cancommunicate and that we can see
what's going on in each other'scountries and how their
governments are treating people.
I just really hope that we, atsome point in the world realize
(29:27):
that.
Man, you know, we got, we've hadall this experience to get this
thing, right.
And we're still screwing thisthing.
You know, I just hope that moreof us will say, Hey, why don't
we have housing, food,healthcare for everybody?
(29:50):
Wouldn't that be great?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (29:53):
I was listening to this, this guy
talking about the democracy andcapitalism.
It's actually against eachother.
If you have democracy, youcannot have capitalism.
If you have capitalism, youcannot have democracy needs
dictatorship.
Kelley Lynch (30:11):
How, how explain that?
What did he say?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (30:14):
Profit making would be always for
chosen few.
So you have to deprive themasses to make profit for the
chosen few.
In the U.
S., how did you get to this 1%who want to accumulate more?
And that drives the whole ideaof capitalism that you will be
(30:36):
forcing yourself to make moreprofit and that actually creates
this gap.
You cannot have capitalism anddemocracy working together.
It's a myth.
And that myth is fed to usbecause we don't have the bird's
eye view of the whole situation.
We see from the ground levelcontrolling the flow of
(31:00):
information is like the key tocontrolling the mindset.
So that's what you have.
News is no longer news it'sviews, but.
Cindy Sealls (31:12):
Tanvir, I was gonna, uh, I agree with you on
the whole democracy andcapitalism thing, because I'm
just looking at, I mean, I justlooking at China and how it's
grown so quickly economically,and then I'm reading this book
called, Age of Ambition aboutthe g rowth of China.
(31:33):
And I came up with a term that Icall communistic capitalism,
which will enable China toovertake us because there, like
you said, the government cancontrol whatever happens with
the money here.
(31:54):
It's sort of like that.
But you know, people have aright to go hide their money,
places o ffshore, or whatever.
I mean, they're not supposed to,but they do it anyway.
But t here, because basicallythe government is controlling
the economy, they are going tobe, well, some of them are going
to be, y ou k now, filthy rich.
(32:16):
So I just looked up a stat andit says, China overtakes us a nd
rankings of the world's richestpeople.
This was, this happened inOctober of 2019 because they r
ealized, Hey, this capitalismthing could work for us.
If we control it.
(32:37):
Listen, you're living.
You've lived through this stuffthat we in America are always so
afraid of.
And I think that having yourvoice in there to say, be
careful, I'm just telling you,you know, be very, very careful,
(33:00):
uh, about, you know, what you'reallowing to take place in your
country.
It's a slippery slope.
And we have to keep our leadersin check and our police
officers.
Speaker 7 (33:20):
[inaudible]
Cindy Sealls (33:21):
Going back to the protest.
I'm heartened by the kinds ofpeople that are involved and the
number of them all over theworld.
There's a guy who's written abook called How to be an Anti
racist.
His name is Kendi Ibraham, Ithink.
But anyway, the name of the bookis how to be an antiracist.
And he, his thing is there'seither racism or they're racist
(33:46):
and anti-racist, and there'snobody in between because you
have to be actively actingagainst this kind of behavior.
That it's not that you know,well, I'm not doing anything.
So it's not me.
I'm not doing any of that stuff.
But as you see, you know, 400years later, how could this
(34:08):
still be happening?
It's just, it's just crazy.
And it's because I think thiswhole idea of people of color
being institutionally,subjugated all over the world,
because I think if you look in alot of societies, there's a
colorism, this whole idea of ifI'm lighter and whiter, then
(34:34):
they don't deserve my respect asa human being.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And I want that to be gone.
That, you know, that whole, aswe in the black community, call
it white is right thing.
It needs to be, you know, thatcancer needs to be operated on
and dugout.
And then we need, they needchemotherapy, constant
(35:01):
medication to make sure itdoesn't come back.
Because I think that people thistime see that like King said, if
there's injustice going onsomewhere, it's everywhere.
And it's not just in the U Sthat, that the U S which has a
lot of power and influencearound the world.
(35:22):
Our policies affect people allover the world.
So, you know, people might say,well, that's just happened in
America, that police brutality,but that police brutality is
really just showing the kind ofdeep infection, you know, a
(35:46):
disease that's in America thatwe have to, we have to get
healed of, you know?
And I think that will help usthen yeah.
Put in place policies that, sothat we're not basically
subjugating people economicallyaround world
Kelley Lynch (36:10):
No, indeed, indeed.
And I, I really appreciatedTanvir's point earlier about
how, when you go outside ofAmerica, you see America is
covered a lot in the news, youwould almost think you were
watching the American news to acertain extent.
BBC Al Jazeera, wherever.
I mean, American news is oftenthe news that leads.
(36:33):
And I think it has a deep impacton other people.
I, I don't think I fullyappreciate it until Tom Baer
said that the impact that thishas on the possibilities that
other people around the worldsee for themselves.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (36:51):
it's this idea that if they can do it, we
can do it too.
So you take out that, take awaythat dream in you are shattering
their dream as well.
Kelley Lynch (37:13):
I feel so privileged and so grateful to
have two friends like you, andto be doing this with you.
Thank you both.
I really appreciate it.
We'll talk again soon.
(37:34):
Probably tomorrow.
Okay, bye.
Have a great day.
All right, bye guys.
Bye.
So what do we want them to do?
Okay.
(37:54):
One, two, three.
Before you go, please hitsubscribe.
Cindy Sealls (37:59):
Why are you saying hit?
That's a violent it thing?
Kelley Lynch (38:08):
Gently touch the subscribe button.
And there you go.
Touch the like button onFacebook and put it up there
very kindly to your friends.
And then if you wouldn't mindalso click that beautiful heart
button and show us some love on.
(38:30):
There, am I making you happyover there?
Cindy Sealls (38:31):
You can't have, you can't have hit and love in
the same sentence.
Right.
Kelley Lynch (38:36):
Alright.
Okay.
All right.
We're done.
We're usually the people who are talking to you
about life during the pandemic.
And where do we go from here?
But given what's going on in theworld today, the marches we're
seeing in countries around theworld protesting the treatment
of African Americans in America,we thought it was really
(00:25):
important to talk about thatother virus that has devastated
this country from the beginning.
Cindy Sealls (00:31):
You Mean Racism?
Kelley Lynch (00:40):
the other night, it must've been about 11:30.
I heard this screaming comingfrom somewhere down the street,
there came a louder one andallowed her one, uh, turned out
it was the house next door.
And there was somebody justscreaming, like they were being
attacked.
(01:03):
And so we were faced with kindof like, what do we do?
And I said, we're going to callnine one one.
You know?
I mean, what else are we goingto do?
Then the police were coming andwe kind of backed off two days
ago.
He happened to see the guy who'sin that house.
(01:25):
There was no way that he wasattacking anybody in my mind,
but I know that they had had anintruder once before.
So I had to, I said to him, Iwas like, man, I'm so sorry.
I called the police, but I, whatwas going on?
And he said, I actually, it wasmy girlfriend and his girlfriend
(01:50):
is it's African-American and hesaid she was responding to all
the stuff that's going on.
And she just, she just couldn'thandle it anymore.
And I mean, literally these arethe sounds that you would make
if someone was being murdered infront of your eyes, which I
(02:11):
guess is exactly what has beenhappening.
It is on TV or on your computerscreen or on your phone.
But I wanted to ask you Cindy,in particular, how this is
impacting you personally,
Cindy Sealls (02:29):
I guess, for me, and I can totally understand
her.
She's a younger much youngerwoman than I am.
And just, I think just livingthrough history and crying a
bucket load of tears, overdifferent, different things that
have happened.
There's some something happeneda while ago.
Uh, I think it was like a yearago.
I can't remember what it was,but we were walking and I just
(02:53):
said to Kelly, why do whitepeople hate us so much?
And she said, I don't thinkthat's true.
And I said, yeah, it's true.
I said, you know, they just dostuff to us.
That makes no sense to me.
(03:15):
I've been thinking about howthis country was founded, the
principles that it was foundedon and how they had to, because
it was founded on quote unquote,you know, principles of
equality, but they weren'ttreating everybody equally.
Um, they, I don't think they didit conscious consciously.
(03:38):
I think it was an unconsciousway of dealing with this, this,
um, situation of supposedly thisis the, uh, equal place for
every person, but then nottreating everybody equally, not
treating the native Americans ashuman beings, not treating the
(03:59):
blacks as human beings, nottreating women, um, the same
way.
Uh, so there's, there's, I thinkthere's always been there, this
conflict in the soul and spiritof America of having this ideal,
but not living the ideal.
And I think say you're just aregular person and you're a
(04:23):
pastor.
So, and so you, you care aboutthis flock, but then you're
abusing kids or something likethat.
I mean, you cannot be a happyand satisfied person.
You have got to be a person witha lot of craziness in your soul
when that is going on.
(04:44):
And I think that's, that's, youknow, that's unfortunately the
sin, the original sin ofAmerica.
Um, and I think it's, it's beingborn out in all of these
different conflicts because youknow, America, isn't just in
conflict with black people.
(05:04):
It's citizens, it's in conflictwith the world, you know, it's
in conflict with othercountries.
Um, the, the way that we'vetreated other countries, the way
that we've looked at othercitizens of other countries, the
way we send drones over to, youknow, kill, like not seeing
(05:25):
other people as human.
I think that's the thing.
And for us, you know, it's been400 years of this, of not seeing
us as human.
And it's just, it's sodepressing.
But I have hope, I have hope andI hope what my hope is and
seeing these protests.
(05:46):
And I was telling, I think Itold you about this Kelly.
We were talking about this, thatthe hope I see is when I see
these people, the people whowere involved in the protest,
and it's a multi ethnic crowdthat gives me hope because in
the sixties, there were somewhite people, but most of the
(06:08):
crowd, 95%, 96% were blackpeople.
This crowd that I see, it lookslike it might be 30, 40% people
of other ethnicities who aresaying now, okay, we're done
with how you're treating thesepeople we're done with that.
(06:30):
This we hope I hope will be anew normal will, will bring us
to a new normal and how blackpeople are perceived and treated
in this country.
That's my hope I'm being, I'mgoing to be optimistic about
this whole thing.
Optimism is good.
(06:50):
Yeah.
And I hope that it also pushesus to behave in a different
manner toward people in othercountries, especially in
countries where there are peopleof color.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (07:07):
Kelley should remember that we went to
Cox's buzzer and seeing Kelly'sskin, a white person at the
beach, a 10th grader came to usand he wanted to go to America
because he has seen from themovies that that's the place to
be.
Kelley Lynch (07:27):
People always are like—young people, especially—I
want to go to America.
I want to be in America.
Can you sponsor me to go toAmerica?
I mean, it's, it would be anaberration not to meet people
like that.
Well, how does that make youfeel?
(07:47):
Maybe if you were of a certainpolitical persuasion that might
make you stick your chest out alittle bit, you know, about
being an American, like I'm herein this country and people are
coming up to me and asking me tocome to my country.
That's how great my country isfor me.
(08:11):
I'm just going to be honest withyou.
I've had to stand up in front ofclasses, in schools and other
things.
And, and what I tell them isit's not what it looks like on
television or on, you know, orin the movies.
It's not that place.
(08:33):
I've talked to too many peoplehere who have immigrated from
other countries and they'reworking two, three jobs trying
to make ends meet.
And the view from abroad is thatthose people are making a lot of
(08:53):
money and they have everythingthey want.
But the view from within, fromthose immigrants themselves is,
is very different.
Um, it's not an easy life beinghere and there are these
tensions.
And I don't think I don't wantto sugar coat that for people,
(09:19):
honestly, at this moment, if youwere to ask me what I see is
we're standing on the worldstage with our pants down, it's
pretty embarrassing.
So then some kid says to me,Hey, I want to go there.
I would have to say Why?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (09:39):
It's the movies that have made everybody
believe that, America is thisshiny space.
This make believe fools the restof the world.
It also fools some people in US,probably.
(10:01):
That's why this whole thingsuddenly is kind of a wake up
call because this racism issuehas been there for 300, 400
years.
You know why occasionally peoplerise up and then again it's
subsides?
Because it's not addressed as anissue or as a serious major
(10:28):
problem,
Kelley Lynch (10:30):
Although we are making America great again—
Speaker 6 (10:36):
All that glitters right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Isn't gold.
It's, it's the, the notion ofAmerican dream.
It's a dream for all the peopleliving in places or in countries
where, uh, the system kind ofpushes them so that they cannot
(11:03):
live up to their expectation ortheir potential, I'd say, so
this situation truly takes awaythat idea or that dream—that
hope.
(11:30):
It's kind of a loss for peopleall over the world, because it
negates the hope that, anybodycan be anything and anybody can
rise up to any level justbecause they have the potential
(11:50):
or they have the ability to doso,
Kelley Lynch (11:55):
so is it that it shows that if you are a person
of a certain color, sorry, thatdream is closed off to you, is
that right?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:07):
Yeah.
It, it, it, the reality is notsomething that we want to see
because it takes away that hope.
Kelley Lynch (12:18):
So it's kinda like the movies.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:20):
Exactly.
Kelley Lynch (12:21):
You want to see the movie version of the police
police brutality where there'sa, there's a happy ending.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:29):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Kelley Lynch (12:30):
Have you seen that movie Cindy?
Cindy Sealls (12:33):
I have not seen that movie.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (12:37):
No, it's, it's, it's, it's more like, it's
not a happy ending, but it'smore like, you want to believe
that even if you come from adifferent ethnicity,[inaudible]
in the end, justice prevails,but in reality, that is not
(12:58):
happening.
That's what we are seeing.
So that's like the mosttroublesome part.
Now, standing here.
I definitely think that, thatyou show an image with makeup
and glitter to the rest of theworld so that you can dictate
(13:20):
them.
You can convince them, you canmake them do whatever you want
them to do.
For instance, you know, likehere in Bangladesh, the US
Embassy was talking aboutdemocracy and human rights and
governance and things like that.
But now, you know, thatdiscussion or that preaching,
(13:48):
this shows how hollow that was.
They should look at their ownbackyard.
It takes me back to BritishIndia.
(14:09):
It's the same kind of thing.
Dividing and ruling through theidea of Hindus versus the
Muslims.
It's the same.
Instead of dividing people basedon their skin color, you are
dividing based on their belief.
It's the same thing, the Britishsupported one group against
another so they could extractwhatever resources they could
(14:32):
from this land and makethemselves rich.
Same thing is happening.
Who is benefiting from all t hisin the States?
Seeing a military uniform in thecapital city has a different
meaning to us because we are sofamiliar with that concept,
(14:56):
especially with Bangladesh beinga third world country.
This is pretty common.
You see military uniform in acapital city, only when the
democracy has gone and themilitary has taken over the
whole system.
It reminds us of that.
(15:17):
The consequences of that, we areso familiar with that.
We have seen that in our countryand around the world, you don't
have any idea how that life is,where you are stripped of all
your freedom, just by the whimof a few people.
Seeing the same thing happeningto your place, it made me sad
(15:43):
because I know what lies on theother side of that.
Cindy Sealls (15:52):
This is what I say
what has happened for, for blackpeople?
Yes.
This police thing is still goingon.
There's a lot of discriminationthat's still going on, but we
have made a lot of progress as apeople in this society.
(16:17):
So the year that I was born, in1961.
If you lived basically belowWashington, DC, which is about
half of the country, youcouldn't go on a bus as a black
person.
You couldn't go on a bus thatran through the states like a
(16:39):
regular old bus line.
Even if you paid your ticket,you had to sit certain places on
and certain transportation.
You couldn't go to certainstores.
Like for instance, my parents,had to go to segregated schools.
My dad was born in the North sohe was, he had a much better
(17:02):
time than my mom.
Even though her dad was a doctorand they had resources, they
still had to abide by the rules.
Jim Crow.
And black people knew it.
They just followed the rules totried to stay out of trouble.
You know, some of them would getin trouble.
(17:22):
There was a group of vigilantesnamed the KU Klux Klan who
literally had free reign to beable to go anywhere and do
anything, to black people, or towhite people who helped the
black people.
So the white people, even ifthey didn't agree with all this
(17:45):
stuff, had to abide by rules,because if they didn't, they
were going to be in trouble withthe rest of the white people.
This is all in my lifetime sinceI've been born.
So like, for instance, me andKelly, we would not be able to
go to her, her home in Texas.
Kelley Lynch (18:07):
That's right.
Like last summer.
Cindy Sealls (18:08):
The only way we would know each other is if we
worked somewhere together andshe would probably be in a much
higher role.
So we probably would never havemet each other because I would
be in a more subservient role atwhatever job I was at.
So there wasn't even, therewouldn't be even any likelihood
(18:28):
that we would ever have met.
We might live in the sameneighborhood, but that was
extremely rare.
Kelley Lynch (18:37):
So red lining had finished...
Cindy Sealls (18:39):
Right.
But still the bank stillwouldn't give black people
loans.
I mean, you know, the banksdecide here who lives, where,
so, you know, it's just so manythings have just changed just in
my lifetime, that I have hope.
And I have hope because I thinkthe beauty of America is the
(19:03):
optimism of the people whofounded the country.
I don't think they meant that itwas actually for everybody, but
because of the way they wrotethe constitution, where Congress
could change it, if they felt soled, it enables more people to
be able to partake in theopportunities that are available
(19:28):
here.
And that's why I think everybodywants to come here because it
isn't like that in other places.
And no, it's not perfect andnothing's ever perfect.
And we just have to keep workingon it.
And sometimes, unfortunately ithas to come to this.
So I understand t hat you're notoptimistic Tanvir, but I am
(19:49):
knowing the history of thiscountry.
I just believe in human beingsand I think human beings, they
don't realize it, but I think they're more good than bad.
I think the religions tell t hemthat that's not true, but I
think if you look at humanhistory and what used to go on
in human history and where weare now, even though it's not
(20:10):
perfect, and it can be reallybad for people—most of us want
to believe that others of us arekind caring human beings.
And that's what we want to be too to others.
I just believe that.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I honestly hope that Cindy's wish comes true in
almost every 10 years, we havegone through, um,
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (20:48):
Next year, we will be celebrating our
50th anniversary ofindependence.
We have seen the very people whofought during the independence.
They started fighting amongthemselves just after four or
five years of liberation.
(21:10):
And then we have seen themilitary takeover of the
country, of the politics.
And then we had a dictator for10 years.
And in nineties, we took downthe dictator and started our
journey towards democracy.
(21:32):
So I have seen this rollercoaster ride in our country and,
and the effect of it on thepeople.
It's almost every 10 years, wehad to fight for a better future
for our children.
The reason that I have for notbeing optimistic about your
situation is that you haveentrusted the police with so
(21:56):
much responsibility and do carryout those responsibilities.
You have entrusted them with somuch power that one day it bites
back.
We don't have any examples wherewe see that an authoritarian
establishment makes life better.
(22:16):
It never happened.
I see the same trend in yourcountry.
Just one example.
See how many journalists wereattacked deliberately by police.
Kelley Lynch (22:27):
Yeah, that's right.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (22:29):
That's a tell tale sign.
If you can stop journalists fromspreading the news, there is no
news.
That's why they're targeting thejournalists.
That's, that's one of thebiggest worries that I have.
You know, we see in our country,that's the norm.
The first target is always thejournalists or the media.
(22:54):
If you can control the media,the rest of the people you can
control easily.
The media is controlled by thecorporates.
It no longer represents the masspeople— all over the world.
Especially in the US, the mediais owned by people with money.
(23:15):
People with power.
What results is that you startself-censoring.
You start judging yourself that,okay, I should not be talking
(23:37):
about this because that may harmmy family.
Not me.
If it was only us we would beable to take more risks.
But when it comes to yourfamily, I'm sure none of you
will take the same risk if youknow that if you do something,
or if you say something, yourchildren will be harmed.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
That's a terror.
You're trying to spread the fearamong the media.
That's a really bad sign.
Cindy Sealls (24:07):
I'll agree with you in that.
And I blame the president of theUnited States because every
chance he gets, he criticizesthe media, calls them, liars,
says to his people that they aretrying to take over, or they're
(24:28):
trying to destroy him.
And that's just amping up theanimosity towards the press.
And you know, that some of thosepeople that support him are in
the police force.
I mean, you know, there's gottabe,
Kelley Lynch (24:46):
but the police unions, I mean, he was, that was
his thing, right.
I mean, he was supported by thepolice unions even as he got
elected.
Cindy Sealls (24:54):
Yeah.
But I mean, I was just thinking,I mean, if 63 million people
voted for him, there's some ofthem have got to be police
officers, you know, and I, youknow, Tanvir, I mean, I totally
get you, but I really believe inthe capability of the people in
(25:16):
America to be able to fightagainst authoritarianism.
And it's kinda weird because nowwe have this whole narrative now
both on the extreme, right andon the extreme left that this
(25:38):
country is becoming like that,
Kelley Lynch (25:40):
But they can't agree on why.
So one side, says, it's thesocialists and the communists
who are causing this thing.
And the other side says, it'sDonald Trump and his ilk who are
bringing on thisauthoritarianism.
Everybody's afraid of the samething.
But they point to two totallydifferent causes.
Cindy Sealls (26:01):
I mean, cause yeah, that's the confusing thing
with us like this, this wholething is coming from the extreme
ends of the political spectrum.
So we don't really know what tobelieve.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (26:14):
In the beginning.
Probably we had extremists inboth sides, but after 10 years
of independence, they were nottoo far on the edge.
We had institutions there, butthey supported the authoritarian
power structure just to maximizetheir benefits.
(26:38):
So basically it was, I wouldsay, it's the institutions that
were corrupted by theindividuals.
Cindy Sealls (26:47):
So can you, can you tell us what you foresee for
us given what's going on in ourcountry?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (26:54):
There is no easy way out when people
start dying next to you, thatpeople, you know, only then you
will start reacting.
I sincerely hope it doesn't cometo that.
If you look at the globalscenario, look at Hong Kong, how
the Chinese is taking over HongKong and how nobody talks
(27:16):
anymore because the people whowere protesting vanished.
So there was nobody in thestreet to protest this, you
know, the latest change thatChina has made to Hong Kong's
legislation.
You have started going down thatpath.
I was reading about this articleabout in DC data.
(27:38):
So many unmarked law enforcementpersonnel, like nobody knows
which agency they come from, butthey are dead.
So you make them anonymous andthat gives them the power to go
beyond the law.
(27:59):
You cannot actually identify whofired the shot towards you.
So, you don't have any way toprosecute them.
So that's where the law andorder situation or the rule of
law becomes fake.
(28:22):
The present generation, thatincludes ours as well, has a
memory of a goldfish.
We will forget in three daystime or one week's time or one
month's time.
And we will move on,
Cindy Sealls (28:37):
But not the three of us.
So there's hope.
Because I know we're not theonly ones.
There's hope you guys.
There is hope.
Working together, when peoplerealize we're in this together
and it's, I mean, I don't wantto say it's us against them, but
you know, it i s the people whocare about the masses as opposed
(29:01):
to people who don't.
A nd I don't know if they do ordon't, but they don't seem to
care about the masses.
And I just think that, you know,especially with this technology
that we have, that we cancommunicate and that we can see
what's going on in each other'scountries and how their
governments are treating people.
I just really hope that we, atsome point in the world realize
(29:27):
that.
Man, you know, we got, we've hadall this experience to get this
thing, right.
And we're still screwing thisthing.
You know, I just hope that moreof us will say, Hey, why don't
we have housing, food,healthcare for everybody?
(29:50):
Wouldn't that be great?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (29:53):
I was listening to this, this guy
talking about the democracy andcapitalism.
It's actually against eachother.
If you have democracy, youcannot have capitalism.
If you have capitalism, youcannot have democracy needs
dictatorship.
Kelley Lynch (30:11):
How, how explain that?
What did he say?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (30:14):
Profit making would be always for
chosen few.
So you have to deprive themasses to make profit for the
chosen few.
In the U.
S., how did you get to this 1%who want to accumulate more?
And that drives the whole ideaof capitalism that you will be
(30:36):
forcing yourself to make moreprofit and that actually creates
this gap.
You cannot have capitalism anddemocracy working together.
It's a myth.
And that myth is fed to usbecause we don't have the bird's
eye view of the whole situation.
We see from the ground levelcontrolling the flow of
(31:00):
information is like the key tocontrolling the mindset.
So that's what you have.
News is no longer news it'sviews, but.
Cindy Sealls (31:12):
Tanvir, I was gonna, uh, I agree with you on
the whole democracy andcapitalism thing, because I'm
just looking at, I mean, I justlooking at China and how it's
grown so quickly economically,and then I'm reading this book
called, Age of Ambition aboutthe g rowth of China.
(31:33):
And I came up with a term that Icall communistic capitalism,
which will enable China toovertake us because there, like
you said, the government cancontrol whatever happens with
the money here.
(31:54):
It's sort of like that.
But you know, people have aright to go hide their money,
places o ffshore, or whatever.
I mean, they're not supposed to,but they do it anyway.
But t here, because basicallythe government is controlling
the economy, they are going tobe, well, some of them are going
to be, y ou k now, filthy rich.
(32:16):
So I just looked up a stat andit says, China overtakes us a nd
rankings of the world's richestpeople.
This was, this happened inOctober of 2019 because they r
ealized, Hey, this capitalismthing could work for us.
If we control it.
(32:37):
Listen, you're living.
You've lived through this stuffthat we in America are always so
afraid of.
And I think that having yourvoice in there to say, be
careful, I'm just telling you,you know, be very, very careful,
(33:00):
uh, about, you know, what you'reallowing to take place in your
country.
It's a slippery slope.
And we have to keep our leadersin check and our police
officers.
Speaker 7 (33:20):
[inaudible]
Cindy Sealls (33:21):
Going back to the protest.
I'm heartened by the kinds ofpeople that are involved and the
number of them all over theworld.
There's a guy who's written abook called How to be an Anti
racist.
His name is Kendi Ibraham, Ithink.
But anyway, the name of the bookis how to be an antiracist.
And he, his thing is there'seither racism or they're racist
(33:46):
and anti-racist, and there'snobody in between because you
have to be actively actingagainst this kind of behavior.
That it's not that you know,well, I'm not doing anything.
So it's not me.
I'm not doing any of that stuff.
But as you see, you know, 400years later, how could this
(34:08):
still be happening?
It's just, it's just crazy.
And it's because I think thiswhole idea of people of color
being institutionally,subjugated all over the world,
because I think if you look in alot of societies, there's a
colorism, this whole idea of ifI'm lighter and whiter, then
(34:34):
they don't deserve my respect asa human being.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
And I want that to be gone.
That, you know, that whole, aswe in the black community, call
it white is right thing.
It needs to be, you know, thatcancer needs to be operated on
and dugout.
And then we need, they needchemotherapy, constant
(35:01):
medication to make sure itdoesn't come back.
Because I think that people thistime see that like King said, if
there's injustice going onsomewhere, it's everywhere.
And it's not just in the U Sthat, that the U S which has a
lot of power and influencearound the world.
(35:22):
Our policies affect people allover the world.
So, you know, people might say,well, that's just happened in
America, that police brutality,but that police brutality is
really just showing the kind ofdeep infection, you know, a
(35:46):
disease that's in America thatwe have to, we have to get
healed of, you know?
And I think that will help usthen yeah.
Put in place policies that, sothat we're not basically
subjugating people economicallyaround world
Kelley Lynch (36:10):
No, indeed, indeed.
And I, I really appreciatedTanvir's point earlier about
how, when you go outside ofAmerica, you see America is
covered a lot in the news, youwould almost think you were
watching the American news to acertain extent.
BBC Al Jazeera, wherever.
I mean, American news is oftenthe news that leads.
(36:33):
And I think it has a deep impacton other people.
I, I don't think I fullyappreciate it until Tom Baer
said that the impact that thishas on the possibilities that
other people around the worldsee for themselves.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (36:51):
it's this idea that if they can do it, we
can do it too.
So you take out that, take awaythat dream in you are shattering
their dream as well.
Kelley Lynch (37:13):
I feel so privileged and so grateful to
have two friends like you, andto be doing this with you.
Thank you both.
I really appreciate it.
We'll talk again soon.
(37:34):
Probably tomorrow.
Okay, bye.
Have a great day.
All right, bye guys.
Bye.
So what do we want them to do?
Okay.
(37:54):
One, two, three.
Before you go, please hitsubscribe.
Cindy Sealls (37:59):
Why are you saying hit?
That's a violent it thing?
Kelley Lynch (38:08):
Gently touch the subscribe button.
And there you go.
Touch the like button onFacebook and put it up there
very kindly to your friends.
And then if you wouldn't mindalso click that beautiful heart
button and show us some love on.
(38:30):
There, am I making you happyover there?
Cindy Sealls (38:31):
You can't have, you can't have hit and love in
the same sentence.
Right.
Kelley Lynch (38:36):
Alright.
Okay.
All right.
We're done.
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