October 29, 2020 • 68 mins
Today, as voters head to the polls in record numbers and with concerns around the election at a fever pitch, we’re talking about a topic that has us alternately feeling like Chicken Little and Pollyanna. But we’re not alone. Everywhere you look people and organizations are prepping for this election—and most would say with good reason.
So when we heard about a training designed to prepare people to take action in the event of an undemocratic power grab, we decided it was definitely worth our virtual attendance. The premise of the training, called Choose Democracy, can be distilled into a few simple sentences: We will vote and we will refuse to accept election results until all of the votes are counted. And if this, the most basic principle of democracy, is denied, then we the people will defend our democracy through nonviolent mass protests. (Now, it’s important to say here that no one candidate is supported for the win. The objective is simply that democratic processes are honored and all votes are counted.)
About a week after the training we sat down with facilitators Michael Levi, a Quaker and long term activist schooled in non-violence and Alaine Duncan, also a Quaker as well as a healer and author of The Tao of Trauma. Her East-meets-West approach to trauma feels more needed than ever.
And one last thing: we hope you’ll stay tuned after this conversation as Kelley seeks some advice about coping with situations like this from our co-host, Tanvir, in Bangladesh—a country that has definitely seen its fair share of struggles for democracy over the years.
We hope you find this useful—and that it turns out we were Chicken Little in the end.
.
OVER ON THE WEBSITE
>We've got a new website: www.anewnormalpodcast.com
>This is where we will post show notes, transcripts and more. It's also the place to subscribe, rate, review and share the show and to sign up for our email newsletter.
>If you've got a Be the Change story you'd like to share—or like for us to share—on the podcast, please get in touch with us via our contact form, which you can find here.
RESOURCES
>For more information about Choose Democracy go to www.choosedemocracy.us
>Here’s a super interesting episode of Radiolab called What If that takes on the speculation about what Donald Trump might do in the wake of the election. "Part war game part choose your own adventure, Rosa’s Transition Integrity Project doesn’t give us any predictions, and it isn’t a referendum on Trump. Instead, it’s a deeply illuminating stress test on our laws, our institutions, and on the commitment to democracy written into the constitution.”
>Here's an interesting article from Buzzfeed that places our divisions and the potential for violence over the longer term into the larger context of rising inequality.
>Theme music: Fragili
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelley Lynch (00:04):
Hey, I'm going to go get a trolley.
Cindy Sealls (00:07):
Okay.
Kelley Lynch & Cindy Sealls (00:21):
So what did we need again?
Gas c an.
O h yeah, for the generator?
I think th ere w e re o t her here.
Oh, here's one.
(00:46):
Are we forgetting anything?
Uh, w e have, let's see, youalready have emergency food,
water containers, flashlights,chargers.
I think we've got everything.
Kelley Lynch (00:56):
You know, this whole thing just still feels so
weird to me.
I feel like some sort ofconspiracy theorist or some sort
of prepper person.
Um, it's just weird.
I mean, this is an election andthis is America.
Cindy Sealls (01:20):
It suddenly occurred to me as we're standing
here in home Depot with maskson, thank you for shopping at
the home Depot buying suppliesin case there is some trouble
with a contested election.
I almost want to say is this oneof my covid dreams?
Kelley Lynch (01:44):
I wish it was one of your COVID dreams.
Cindy Sealls (02:00):
Hi, I'm Cindy and I'm Kelly.
Welcome to a new normal, apodcast about re-imagining a
future that starts with each oneof us.
Kelley Lynch (02:09):
You know, today with concerns around the
election at a fever pitch, we'retalking about a topic that has
us alternately feeling likeChicken Little and Pollyanna.
And yet I think we're not alonebecause everywhere you look, it
seems people are prepping forthis election.
(02:31):
Officials in closely contestedStates are preparing for
potential election relatedviolence.
Wall street is bracing forelection related market
turbulence.
There are podcasts about wargames simulations around the
election and the months that will follow it.
And the Carter Center, whichroutinely oversees elections in
(02:55):
countries where democracy isunder severe threat has for the
first time in its history,trained its eyes on an election
in the United States, and manywould say with good reason.
The president has stoked fearsof voter fraud; actively sought
to limit which ballots will becounted and of course, flirted
(03:16):
with the possibility of anauthoritarian power grab by
suggesting that he's iffy abouta peaceful transfer of power,
should he lose the election.
Add to this, the feelings ofanger, distrust, grievance, and
partisan division.
And it looks like we're headedinto an election season that
(03:36):
will be if nothing elseinteresting.
Cindy Sealls (03:40):
And so when a friend forwarded an email about
a training that would help usprepare for the possibility of a
contested election, we decidedit was definitely worth our
virtual attendance.
The training called ChooseDemocracy was designed by civil
rights, veteran George Lakey,and has been taken by tens of
thousands of people.
(04:01):
It's premise can be distilledinto a few simple sentences.
We will vote and we will refuseto accept election results until
all of the votes are counted.
And if this, the most basicprinciple of democracy is
denied, then we the people willdefend our democracy through
non-violent protest.
(04:23):
Now it's important to say herethat no one candidate is
supported for the win.
The objective is simply thatdemocratic processes are honored
and all votes are counted.
Of course, this year manyscenarios suggest that the
election may not play out over aday or even a week, but more
(04:44):
like the 2000 election in aseason.
About a week after the training,we sat down with facilitators,
Michael Levy, a long- termactivist schooled in nonviolence
and Elaine Duncan, a healer andauthor of the Tao of trauma
whose East meets West approachto trauma feels more needed than
ever.
(05:04):
We hope you find ourconversation useful.
Kelley Lynch (05:07):
And one last thing we hope you'll stay tuned after
this conversation for a shortconversation with our co-host
Tanvir in Bangladesh, a countrythat has definitely seen its
fair share of struggles fordemocracy,
Cindy Sealls (05:23):
Michael and Lainie, welcome to the podcast.
Michael Levy (05:28):
Thank you.
I'm delighted to be here.
Kelley Lynch (05:31):
Maybe you guys could tell us a little bit about
who you are and what you do, andthen we'll go from there.
Michael Levy (05:37):
All right.
So my name is Michael Levi.
I'm a member of Adelphi FriendsMeeting, a Quaker.
Before I had children so many,many years ago, I was very
involved with the peacemovement, the anti intervention
movement, the anti-nuclearmovement, and among other things
(06:02):
spent many of my evenings andweekends training people in
non-violence in civildisobedience and in how to be
effective politically.
How to bring peaceful, butradical change to a world that
(06:26):
desperately needs it.
And just a few weeks ago in ourQuaker Meeting, someone gave a
message and started by quotingthe saying that the antidote to
helplessness is action and kindof elaborated on that a bit and
(06:48):
changed it a little to theantidote to helplessness is
community.
And to me that just resonated.
In this moment where it is soeasy to feel despair, to kind of
watch catastrophe unfolding inan almost inevitable way, the
(07:13):
thought that we can take actionand that we don't have to take
action by ourselves, but we cando it with community.
Just kind of sets off a lightbulb in my head and it just
changes everything.
And so in my mind, that's whatLaney and I are trying to
(07:34):
achieve here.
It is trying to help ourselves,but others as well to see that
we can be actors, we don't haveto be the audience.
And if we do it with others,we're more powerful.
We're safer.
We're more likely to beeffective and we will get the
(07:57):
sustenance.
We need to keep us going.
Lainie Duncan (08:00):
So I'm Elaine Duncan.
I go by Laine to my friends.
I'm an acupuncturist.
I'm also a fellow member ofAdelphi Friends Meeting with
Michael.
I'm an acupuncturist with a kindof unique specialization in the
integration of neurobiology oftraumatic stress with
acupuncture nation medicine.
(08:21):
And I've developed quite aninterest in the study of trauma
and how it influences not onlyindividuals, but also our
nation.
So I've watched the summerunfold and watch the, what I
would call from this integrativeperspective, the sympathetic
arousal that's come on thestreets and also watched the
(08:45):
energy body of our nationexpand.
There's more space in our energybody for a broader conversation
about issues of race, issues ofthe environment, issues of
COVID-19.
There's a wider conversation anda bigger conversation.
And in fact, there's been somemovement and change towards
creating a bigger world.
(09:06):
We've engaged in a much broaderdialogue about white supremacy
and about transgender rights andall kinds of things.
And I think that's been becausewe've been able to release some
of the sympathetic arousalthat's been thwarted and not
allowed to express itself reallyfor generations.
So I've kind of developed thisreal fascination for looking at
(09:28):
our nation through this lens oftrauma physiology.
And through this lens of therole that healers can play in
creating a better world for usall to live in.
Cindy Sealls (09:47):
Tell us more about the choose democracy training.
Michael Levi (09:53):
Choose Democracy is a, it's really a network
founded by George Lakey, who isa very long time, um, activist,
uh, going back to the civilrights movement and pretty much
every movement for social changesince then.
And they, as well as many otherpeople in this country have
(10:19):
identified the period fromelection day to inauguration day
as a time of great risk with areal potential for a power grab,
an illegitimate power grab.
And what Choose Democracy isinsisting upon is that every
(10:48):
valid ballot be counted.
That the election not bedeclared finished until all
those ballots are counted.
And that whoever has won thevote becomes the next precedent.
And there's concern that inparticular Donald Trump will not
(11:11):
respect that.
And there's a number ofdifferent scenarios that that
would fall under the umbrella ofillegitimate power grab.
Michael Levy (11:23):
So Choose Democracy is, is trying to do,
and what Lainie and I arehelping with is kind of a two
phase approach to this.
One is to do our best to preventa power grab from taking place
in the first place.
And that means organizing andbeing visible before the
(11:43):
election.
So that a coup is discouragedand doesn't happen in the first
place, but then also beingprepared to take action if such
a coup occurs sometime betweenthe election and inauguration.
A lot of this work is based on agreat deal of research into
(12:10):
coups around the world over thelast 50 years.
What makes them successful?
What makes them fail?
And the evidence shows thatcoups are typically defeated
within a matter of days three tofive days, maybe as long as two
as two weeks, but that's kind ofpushing it.
(12:33):
And after a certain time periodhas passed, the power grab
becomes entrenched and becomesmuch more difficult to overturn.
The second is that the magictipping point is when about
three and a half percent of thepopulation visibly opposes the
(12:54):
coup.
And that there have been few, ifany instances of coups in the
last 30, 40 years, which wereopposed by three and a half
percent of the population thatwere successful.
In other words, once you hitthree and a half percent and in
the United States, that'sbetween 11 and 12 million
people, once you hit that pointcoups fail, period.
(13:19):
So mobilizing people, gettingpeople to be visibly supporting
democratic process democraticrule is absolutely essential.
Um, and then the third facet isthat non-violent opposition to a
coup is dramatically moresuccessful from a purely
(13:39):
pragmatic basis, two or threetimes as successful as violent
opposition to a coup.
And again, this has been borneout empirically in case after
case.
So what we're trying to do isfirst of all, prevent a coup
from happening in the firstplace, but then should we find
(14:02):
ourselves in a situation wherethere's an illegitimate power
grab, that people are ready toact rapidly and effectively
because we have days; we onlyhave days to make a big
difference.
Kelley Lynch (14:27):
I could see people saying that this is all a bit
alarmist, and I could also seethat one of the big questions
would be at what point do youtake action?
Because I think it's like that,that old story of the frog
boiling in the water, right?
I mean, it gets hotter andhotter.
And, and particularly with whatwe've seen to this point, it's a
(14:50):
very slippery thing.
You know, the envelope getspushed and then things kind of
move into that space and youjust think, okay, we should have
stopped this.
Well, we should have stoppedthat.
You could see that there's avery slippery progression and it
would be very hard to knowpotentially when to get involved
and thus, you know, you couldalso feel very alarmist, like,
(15:13):
you know, you could be runningaround and people will be like,
ah, you're a chicken little,come on.
So how do you think about that?
Michael Levy (15:20):
I have to agree that there is a piece of me that
just feels silly talking about acoup in the United States.
I think there's just kind ofthis real cognitive dissonance,
where I was raised to think ofthe United States as the beacon
of democracy, the model for theworld, the example of successful
(15:46):
democracy for centuries.
And so to seriously contemplatethe fact that that might end and
it might end within the nextmonth or two.
Um, there's a piece of me thatfeels like, you know, you're
overreacting.
Um, that's ridiculous.
You've turned into one of theseparanoid people that you always
(16:08):
sneered at.
And yet the political situation,certainly in the last four
years, but it didn't really evenstart four years ago.
It's been going on for a while,has led me to believe that it is
rational, not to assume that acoup is inevitable, but that
(16:32):
it's a real possibility.
You know, the presidents on wellfor a long time refusal to
commit to a peaceful transfer ofpower is a pretty strong signal.
And he's made some movement awayfrom that in recent days, but
(16:53):
it's hard to know what tobelieve.
And, you know, the possibilitythat a large number of ballots
will not be counted or thatcompeting, uh, delegations to
the electoral college will beappointed; that a state of
emergency could be declared atsome point and, um, used to work
(17:16):
, uh, the democratic process orthat the president could simply
refuse to leave the white house.
These just don't seem like wildfantasies anymore.
They truly seem like plausiblescenarios.
And I think your analogy of thefrog and the slowly heating
water is a very good one.
(17:38):
It is conceivable that therewill be a point where it's like,
it's very clear.
It just happened, but we're nottalking about kind of the
stereotypical scenario where,you know, the troops storm the
presidential palace and takeover the national television
station.
(17:58):
You know, that's not how it'sgoing to work in the United
States.
It will be gradual though,potentially rapid.
It would be really nice if therewere a single respected
authority who could tell us,okay, the line has been crossed,
go, and here's what you need todo.
(18:19):
That's not going to happen.
That's not the way it works.
This is where we individuallyand collectively have to take
responsibility.
And we have to assess thesituation and say, okay, now the
line has been crossed and weneed to start acting.
That could be at slightlydifferent points for different
(18:40):
people.
But I do think the general sensewill be fairly clear.
There's going to be a greatnumber of people looking at
what's unfolding and talkingabout what's unfolding, taking
action in response to what'sunfolding.
And the important thing is thatwe not rely on, you know, some
(19:03):
other authority to tell us, butthat we take agency in this,
that we trust our own instincts.
Um, or our instincts with thoseof our communities and move when
it feels necessary.
Lainie Duncan (19:18):
I just want to add just a little bit, because
in some ways the coup is alreadyhappening in terms of voter
suppression, attacks on thepostal service that don't allow
if the efficient movement ofmail, lack of locations for
voting, pushing through aSupreme Court justice that is
going to tilt the court in adramatic way so that if the
(19:40):
election lands in the Supremecourt, there's a certain
predictability about what mighthappen.
So to me, like focusing on theelection is creating an, an
environment and perhaps aculture for us to cultivate
relationships and cultivatemeaningful responses in our
communities to help preservepeace, to help preserve the
(20:04):
honoring the voice of everyindividual in our country.
Ensuring the rights of allvoices to be heard.
It's part of our ongoingchallenge to create the world
that we want.
And we can name, you know,November 3rd is as the dating
question, but really it's today.
(20:24):
It's now it's.
How do I relate to my neighbors?
How do I relate to people whoare new to my country, who left
the land of their ancestors andare trying to make a new world
here?
Just like many of our ancestorsdid, some of our ancestors came
against their will.
How do we help create a worldthat's welcoming for everyone?
(20:45):
It's today.
It's not November 3rd.
And I think that the challengeis how do we approach these
kinds of questions in a way thatensures that we're approaching
them from a point of view ofrelationship and not just simple
reactivity?
You know, it's easy when we feelthreatened to want to throw sand
(21:08):
in our friend's face or kickdown their sandcastle, but we
have to be able to inhibit thosekinds of impulsive actions that
are antisocial and don't buildcommunity.
Don't build trust between peoplewho are different from us.
How do we inhibit those?
And instead respond throughdiplomatic kinds of ways that
involve our voice, our sense ofrelationship, our sense of
(21:32):
connection with each other.
So it's very connected to traumaphysiology, actually, how we're
going to relate to each otherand how are we going to solve
our nation's problems?
How are we going to make use ofour more mature, more human
aspect of our physiology andless use of that reactive,
violent, more primitive style ofthinking that's rigid, black and
(21:54):
white impulsive, and so on.
We need to cultivate regulationand relationship so that we can
operate in a higher humanfunction.
Kelley Lynch (22:04):
Absolutely.
Maybe you guys could a littlebit more about non-violence and
(22:26):
what's productive and, and howthat works for change.
And, um, you know, it seemedthis summer kind of like it's,
maybe it's a little bit out offavor, you know, I mean, there
was a lot of clashing and it washappening from, with people from
both sides.
Michael Levy (22:49):
The black lives matter protests over the summer
were overwhelmingly peaceful.
There were instances ofviolence, but I do not believe
that they, in any way representthe movement that took place
since the killing of GeorgeFloyd, I'm some protesters will
(23:10):
become overwrought and takeactions that they might not
under other circumstances.
And sometimes it's just the rageboils over and people do act out
of that undiluted frustrationand anger.
What you did see was a lot ofpeople in crowds, speaking with
(23:34):
their peers, doing their best tocalm them.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
So nonviolence, like I said, theresearch shows that it is very,
it is extremely effective.
And, you know, when I look atthe kind of movements that have
adopted nonviolence, there'skind of three places that these
(23:58):
come from one is a religious orethical basis.
And Quakers clearly are one ofthose groups, but it's by no
means limited to Quakers.
There's a strong non-violentstrain in say Catholicism in
Protestant Christianity, butalso in other faith traditions.
(24:19):
Obviously, um, Gandhi wasadmitted the whole concept of a
hemostat, which is non harm isessential to Hinduism, Buddhism,
and Janism.
Um, so that's, that's, you know,actually substantial percentage
of the world population andIslam.
(24:40):
I mean, Islam is a religion ofpeace and there is a strong
non-violent strain runningthrough Islamic theology, going
back a very long time.
(25:00):
So that there's kind of thereligious ethical strain.
There's the strategic strain,which does not come from kind of
a philosophical ground.
And, but it's really kind ofcoldly pragmatic, disciplined
non- violence works.
(25:21):
And history shows that it worksat least as often and probably
more often than violence.
I mean, you know, the reality isthe most opposition to
entrenched power fails acrossthe board.
That's why we call it entrenchedpower.
And, you know, whether you'reviolent or not, the likelihood
(25:46):
is that entrenched power has allthe tools to stay in power.
But so, we look at thesuccessful resistance.
There have been a number ofscholars, especially over the
last 40 years, who have studiedthis and purely pragmatically on
nonviolence is effective.
(26:06):
And then there's the kind oftactical approach, which is in
this situation right now,nonviolence seems to be the best
tactic we have.
The danger there is that it'seasy to stray.
I mean, I remember the firsttime I got a Billy club to the
head and up until that point, Iwas like, I'm going to be
(26:31):
non-violent.
And there was a periodafterwards where I was just so
angry about this, you know, thatI really questioned it.
So I think tactical non-violenceis dangerous because it's easy
to kind of fall off the wagon.
I think strategic nonviolence isprobably the center that really
matters here.
(26:53):
When we think about nonviolence,sometimes we think about civil
disobedience, you know, sit-insthat sort of thing.
But the range of tactics ismuch, much broader than that.
Ranging from talking toneighbors or putting a sign in
your window or in your frontyard, and then including things
(27:17):
like strikes or boycotts, um,simply refusing to cooperate
with institutions that areunjust all the way to
demonstrations, picket lines,civil disobedience, um, you
know, direct action.
So, there's really a very broadspectrum to choose from.
(27:43):
And, you know, a boycott,there's nothing violent about a
boycott.
There's nothing illegal about aboycott.
It's simply refusing to purchasesomething.
A sick out, you know, calling insick to work, an organized
sick-out.
There's nothing illegal aboutnot going to work one day.
Um, but it can have enormouseffect.
(28:06):
When you look at the Montgomerybus boycott, as an example of
simply refusing to do what isexpected of you; to participate
in things as usual.
Now, the boycotters inMontgomery paid a price for
this.
Among other things, there weremany people who walked for miles
(28:29):
for hours to get to work, butthis boycott transformed the
climate, not only in the publictransportation system and not
only in Montgomery, butnationwide.
And this is the kind of effectthat disciplined non-violence
can have.
And coming back to some of thethings we were talking about
(28:50):
earlier, what piece of ourselvesdo we bring to this?
I do think it's critical to cometo political action from a
position of centeredness as bestwe are able.
So, you know, one of thetechniques in confrontation say,
(29:13):
a demonstration where there arecounter-demonstrators is to look
at the people who are yelling atyou and smile and look them in
the eye and speak softly.
Now I've been thinking that'smuch harder.
(29:34):
It's not harder to do, but theeffect will be different when
you're wearing a mask becausethe smile is not obvious.
And so I've been thinking a lotabout that actually.
And two things struck me.
First of all, that we also smilewith our eyes, but perhaps
(29:54):
equally important.
If I am smiling, I have theright attitude to diffuse the
situation, whether anyone elsesees it or not, it puts me in a
place where I am likely to bemuch more effective in
de-escalating the threat,whether anyone else knows about
it or not.
(30:14):
And it reminded me, I used todo, I used to be a peacekeeper
for demonstrations.
And so a group of us would kindof be responsible for
maintaining the peaceful natureof often very large
demonstrations.
And I remember kind of being atthe edge of a demonstration
(30:36):
with, I don't know how manythousand people and getting a
call over my radio, saying therewas a potential disturbance on
the far side of the crowd.
And could we get there as fastas possible because we might
need to intervene andpeacekeepers typically have arm
bands or t-shirts or hats orsomething that identifies them
as such.
(30:57):
And so you can imagine that agroup of, you know, kind of the
moral equivalent of peoplewearing uniforms, running
through a crowd with seriouslooks on their faces is not
going to calm things down.
It's going to alarm everybody.
So we said, so how can we get tothe other side of the crowd
really quickly without alarminganyone?
(31:19):
And what we did was we startedskipping and we started singing
the Wizard of Oz song, you know,we're off to see the wizard.
You can skip really quickly.
So it's almost as fast asrunning.
You know, it was very effectiveas a tool to get to the other
side of the crowd.
Everyone that we passed in thedemonstration smiled at us.
(31:43):
And when we got to thedisturbance, we were all really
happy, you know, because youcan't skip and sing and not be
happy.
So we entered the confrontationfeeling good.
So that's the kind of piece ofourselves that we can bring to
(32:05):
confrontation, where we candeescalate situations, where we
can be very effective.
Even through silliness.
We make a difference.
Lainie Duncan (32:28):
I heard your comment earlier, Kelly, about
the summer and the arousal outon the streets and bouncing off
of what Michael said.
And also what you said.
I want to just jump in with alittle bit of neurophysiology.
There's very interestingresearch.
It's called epigenetics.
It says that if my generationsthat preceded me experienced
(32:50):
threat, experienced trauma, buttheir ability to protect and
defend themselves and others whowere vulnerable was thwarted.
They were unable to completetheir punch.
Held back from running thatforwarded arousal will influence
the genetic imprint of theirancestors.
(33:11):
So for example, they did somefascinating research with mice,
where they put male mice in acage and put electric shocks in
the floor of the cage and pumpedin the smell of cherry blossoms.
At the same time, it became truethat they could just pump in the
cherry blossom smell without anyelectrical current and the mice
(33:31):
would go into arousal.
They put some female mice inthere, mated the females, took
the males out before the pupswere born and their pups, you
put cherry blossom smell in thecage a nd their pups would go
into arousal.
And that went on for severalgenerations.
All that was needed was thecherry blossom smell.
So daddy granddaddy, greatgranddaddy actually was sending
(33:55):
the message to their heirs, Ifyou smell cherry blossoms, you
need to be worried.
You need to respond.
You need to react.
So that obviously mice are muchless complicated than human
beings, but there's beenfascinating research in that
adverse childhood experiencesresearch in the centers for
(34:15):
disease control aboutintergenerational up to three
generations in human beings ofHolocaust survivors, of
oppressed nationalities, ofpeople who have generations of
war behind them, that they'regoing to have arousal in their
system.
That's one thing that I think isreally relevant because it then
(34:36):
plays into higher levels ofmortality and morbidity with
COVID because immune systems incommunities of color, because
our immune system is lesseffective when it's influenced
by traumatic stress.
So it's kind of too much tothink that a community of people
who have experienced generationsof threat before them, when that
(35:00):
arousal has a chance to beexpressed that it's going to be
polite or it's going to bemeasured, or it's going to be
even all the time.
So that's one thing that we knowfrom release of stress.
The other thing, and this kindof dovetails into your
instructions, Michael, thatthere's what we call a
neurologic platform in ourautonomic nervous system.
(35:23):
Then it's about our capacity tohave relationship.
So the more that we're able toexperience safety and
relationship, the more able weare to mitigate impulsive,
potentially violent actions andthe ventral vagus nerve to be
exact that helps us be inrelationship and resolve
conflicts in the context ofdiplomacy, rather than knock
(35:46):
your socks off.
It enervates the smile, wrinklesaround our eyes.
It enervates our whole face.
It enervates our capacity tohear distinctions of sound.
So we can hear tone of voice andrecognize safety and
relationship when we use lowtones, when we speak more
(36:08):
slowly, we're more likely tofeel safe and connected.
Then if we're running fast andmaking a lot of noise.
So we can consciously use thesetechniques of smiling underneath
our mask, because our smileshows up on our whole face.
It isn't only on our mouth.
And we can use quieter voice,softer voice, slower pace as
(36:33):
techniques to help people feelsafe.
And when they feel safe, they'remore able to make decisions and
choices that include the sevengenerations that are coming
after as well as the sevengenerations that came before.
And that's what we want to beable to achieve as peacemakers
is the ability to take in thewhole community and the future,
(36:57):
and honor the past.
So consciously using theseapproaches that put us on what I
call a neurologic platform thatallows for diplomacy and problem
solving instead of reactivity,we're going to be better off.
Cindy Sealls (37:18):
Say something happens and we make a decision.
I make a decision Kelley.
We say, Hey, let's go out here.
And we're going to do ournonviolent thing in a crowd of
people.
How do you get people to buyinto that behavior that you all
just described?
When, you know, when we're outhere showing that we are not
(37:41):
supporting this person with thiskind of behavior.
You know, usually when, when yougo to a protest, it's like, Hey,
Hey, ho ho y ou k now,everybody's yelling.
Lainie Duncan (37:53):
And there's lots of ways to help your body
access.
This more regulated aspect ofour nervous system.
That's going to be moreeffective in a situation like
this.
So one thing is, don't go alone.
Go with a friend, someone whoyou trust, and you have a caring
relationship with so that youcan co-regulate with each other,
(38:16):
because a uto-e gulation arisesout of co-regulation with your
pal.
Then there are things likesinging a song or a chat
actually stimulates that nervethat helps us make decisions out
of relationship.
So sing a song that has somemeaning to you and sing it with
(38:39):
other people so that thevibration is being carried from
person to person and beingenhanced through the context of
relationship.
There's also this veryinteresting thing.
If we rock ourselves, we willself- soothe.
This is why our parents walkedthe floors with us when we were
(39:00):
infants and we couldn't sootheourselves.
They used this technique ofrocking.
So you may be in a crowd whereyou're swaying as a community.
You're actually helping toregulate your nervous system and
keep by a regulated nervoussystem.
We'll be able to make subtle andnuanced choices instead of
(39:21):
reactive impulsive ones, likethrowing a bottle that might be
acting out, but would bestrategically less effective at
calming a situation down andharnessing a group energy field
that makes something impossibleto happen, which is what we want
to do.
We want to harness the energy ofa large group of people that
(39:43):
says, no, we're going to countall the votes.
We need to create a culture thatan energy field that ensures
democracy.
Michael Levy (40:04):
I just wanted to echo and reinforce what Lainie
said.
If you're going to go to ademonstration, go with a friend,
but ideally go with a group offriends with whom you have
already discussed, how faryou're willing to go, what
you're willing to do, what youthink is effective in different
situations.
I mean, I call those affinitygroups.
(40:26):
I understand the current term ofart is democracy pods, which I
love.
The second thing is that infact, crowds are very
suggestible that that's one ofthe power powers, but also
dangers of crowds.
(40:48):
So there was an example thissummer at a Black Lives Matter
protest in Philadelphia, wherepolice started to throw tear gas
at demonstrators.
And the typical reaction ifyou're being gassed is to run.
And when a large group of peoplestarts running, it is just
(41:11):
physically dangerous for thoseinvolved, you know, people g et
jostled, people could fall,people could get trampled.
You kind of lose perspective ina potentially harmful way.
One of the demonstrators raisedtheir hand and started saying,
(41:31):
at the top of, chanting at thetop of their lungs, walk slowly,
walk slowly and model thebehavior and turn to the person
next to them and says, do whatI'm doing.
And the second person did andother people did.
And that whole portion of thecrowd, instead of running walked
(41:52):
slowly away from the tear gas.
One's influence can go waybeyond yourself and the people,
you know.
In a situation like that, beingclear as to what you're
advocating and doing it in acalm way can influence an
(42:14):
enormous number of people.
But the last thing I wanted tosay to this is that non-
violence and conflict are not anopposition.
Non- violence is an approach toconflict.
It is not pretending conflictdoes not exist.
It is not escaping conflict.
(42:37):
It is active participation inconflict in a non-violent
manner.
So to me, a crowd that ischanting is a wonderful thing.
It is people taking back theirpower being clear.
This is one technique ofnon-violent action.
Lainie Duncan (43:09):
The one thing I'd like to add to what Michael said
about sort of the benefit ofbeing in relationship and being
in an experience of safety in agroup is that we're more able to
make this important distinctionbetween I'm uncomfortable and
I'm unsafe.
Because if I mistake beinguncomfortable for being unsafe,
(43:34):
I'm more likely to do a reallystupid violent thing.
Every time an African-Americanyoung man gets shot, the person
who did the shooting says, I wasscared for my life.
I didn't feel safe, but theyweren't unsafe.
They were blowing their ownanxiety, their own discomfort
(43:55):
through someone else's body.
So we need to be able to havethat moment of time between the
impulse.
"I don't feel safe." And ouraction that can discern"is it
that I'm uncomfortable or is itthat I'm unsafe?" And if I'm
(44:17):
uncomfortable, can I look at whyI'm uncomfortable and maybe
create a little more spacearound that?
I think that's really what ourworld is asking us to do is to
create a little more space sothat we don't act out these
impulsive, reactive, potentiallyviolent anti- social kinds of
(44:39):
actions.
And instead can deal with ourdiscomfort, to deal with why am
I this uncomfortable?
Why is that so?
What can I do with myself tohelp myself feel more safe and
more in greater and deeperrelationship so that I can
create the world that I want tocreate.
(45:04):
As a healer, I'm committed tohelping people understand the
impact of historic and currenttrauma on our ability to be
human beings with each other.
I'm really committed to that asa tool for social
transformation.
The question is how do we workwith our own nervous system so
that when someone is in front ofus and we really disagree with
(45:28):
them, we really think their ideais leading our country in the
wrong direction; and we start tofeel that urge to protect and
defend.
We start to feel that urge intowhat I'll call sympathetic
arousal.
We want to punch their lightsout, basically.
So how do we stay inrelationship, especially if it's
uncle Fred, you know, or, orsister S ue, you know, like
(45:51):
people who we actually love inspite of having a disagreement
with them, how do we stay inourselves and in relationship
enough so that we can continuethe conversation in a more
thoughtful way and actually cometo a conclusion.
Because w hile I don't thinkthat all sides are equal, there
(46:12):
are elements of value in whateverybody has to say.
And the person who's saying thething that's really racist or
really homophobic, or reallyexpressing a violent solution.
Like they're coming to thatstate of mind out of their own
(46:35):
contracted experience of athreat.
They feel threatened.
So the more they feelthreatened, the more likely
they're going to have thesekinds of narrow, rigid thought
patterns.
So our energy field, our ventralvagus nerve, which emanates from
our hearts, it actually has avibrational field of six to
(46:55):
eight feet.
So that the more that we canstay regulated when we're
talking with someone who is sixto eight feet away from us, we
can actually influence theregulation that's in their
energy field, by having a lovingpresence, having a thoughtful,
slowed down pace, using a deepertone of voice.
(47:19):
Help me understand.
Express curiosity, not judgment.
Like how can I understand that?
I have this friend who's, who's,uh, who's gay, who's
transgendered.
They are pretty meaningful andimportant person to me.
How can you, how do youreconcile that for me?
(47:41):
When you say that really narrow,rigid thing?
You know, make it relational,make it personal and, and try
not to shout, you know, theelection is going to happen on
November 3rd, but the the senseof arousal in our nation is not
going to be done on November4th.
These dynamics of needing tohelp bring some regulation to
(48:05):
our communities from theoutside, in terms of the
political structures, as well asfrom the inside of individuals
finding regulation forthemselves.
Those two things need tocontinue to be happening in
partnership with each other.
It's a bigger dynamic that we'regoing to be figuring out how to
resolve for probably for yearsto come.
(48:30):
You were going to leave thelisteners with some tools or
some things that they could lookinto.
Some things that they could do.
Some things that they could kindof take away.
What would that be for you?
Michael Levy (48:45):
I think it would be that no one is going to come
and magically save us.
We are responsible for savingourselves and you don't have to
be a hero.
You don't have to be a Saint.
You don't have to beextraordinary in any way.
(49:09):
All you need to be is yourself.
To stand firm for the things inwhich you believe.
To speak with your family, yourfriends, your neighbors, and
find people who will act withyou.
Power can come from the bottomup.
The most effective power comesfrom the bottom up, and it is
(49:33):
our responsibility and ouropportunity.
We can make the world a betterplace.
We just need to stop waiting forpeople to tell us how to do it.
We need to do it ourselves.
Cindy Sealls (49:44):
Lainie, you shared this great meditation at the
start of our training session.
And I wondered if you'd like toshare that now.
Lainie Duncan (50:01):
So give yourself a moment to simply find yourself
in your chair.
Maybe check in with your bonesand invite them to be heavy.
Invite your muscles and yoursoft tissue to be soft so that
your bones can sink and settleinto your body.
(50:24):
And maybe you're in a spacewhere you have a window and you
can look outside and maybethere's something beautiful out
there, a tree or some clouds orbright sun stars, whatever you
see out there.
Just let yourself look outsideand see what you find that you
(50:49):
find pleasant.
And notice what happens as youshift your attention from your,
the worries of your day, thechallenges of your day to that
tree.
It's quite magnificent andamazing.
What happens inside you?
(51:10):
There might be some movement.
There might be some stillnessmight be a change in your breath
or your sense of tension in yourtissue.
And then bring your attentioninto the room that you're in.
See if there's maybe a piece ofart or photograph, a special
(51:36):
book that's meaningful to you, acolor that you like.
Just look for pleasure.
Let yourself look for pleasureand notice what happens.
Maybe you feel heavier.
Maybe you feel lighter.
(51:56):
Maybe you feel more present.
Just notice.
And I'd love for you to bring tomind.
(52:18):
Next, the next layer bring tomind a person, someone alive or
dead, might be a pet, could befour legged might be two legged.
Bring to mind someone who eitherholds you in high regard,
respects you, someone who youfeel safe when you're in their
(52:38):
presence.
Someone who's always encouragingor relational and loving.
Someone who cares about you.
Could be someone from long ago.
Might be a grandparent, schoolteacher, an aunt or uncle.
Just invite them to come and bewith you.
(53:00):
And again, notice any movement,any stillness, any emotions or
(53:27):
meanings that come up, any senseof safe connection,
relationship, ease, coherence,congruence.
(53:51):
And I invite you to use thisperson, this creature, or this
state of being, this experience.
You can bookmark it.
You can take a snapshot of howyou're feeling with this person,
with you.
And as you fall off to sleeptonight, bring this experience
(54:16):
back to you.
So you fall into sleep with thislittle bit more regulated state,
this ally, this comfortingpresence with you, and you can
invite them to come along withyou when you're going into a
(54:37):
challenging situation.
They can help you be morereflective and less reactive.
They can help you hold a longerscope- the seven generation.
They can help you choose adiplomatic solution instead of
(55:02):
an abrupt, potentially violentsolution.
They can help you distinguishI'm uncomfortable from I'm
unsafe.
And when you feel ready, youcan, if you've closed your eyes,
(55:23):
you can open them.
Come back to the room.
Maybe just note one word for howyou feel differently and let
that one word be your anchorpoint that brings you back to
this place.
Thank you, Laney, so much.
(55:45):
Yeah.
It's, it's amazing what we cando really to shift our neurology
to more productive and helpfulstates of being.
Kelley & Cindy (55:56):
Thanks, Michael.
Thanks, Lainie.
Take care.
Yeah, you too.
Bye bye.
Kelley Lynch (56:12):
Hey Tanvir.
For me listening to that andeven, even going to home Depot
like Cindy and I did, we boughta generator.
We've got no, I've been buyingan emergency radio bunch of
batteries.
Um, some emergency food.
(56:33):
I mean, but, but you know, Imean, in all honesty, I mean,
these are things I should havedone a long, long time ago in
preparation for any kind of astorm or anything else, but so
now it's there, but I can't, Ican't help but feel that it, I
mean, it feels likeoverreacting.
(56:53):
It feels like you're some sortof kooky crazy person.
And yet I was reading yesterdaythat like people on wall street
are prepping.
I mean, then there was a radiolab episode that I listened to
and it was all about how thesevery high-level people had done
(57:14):
essentially war games,simulations about all of this
and what would happen.
And they had four differentscenarios that they played out.
And then I know Cindy and I havesome friends like one friend we
went walking with and she is notan alarmist person at all, but
she was buying iodine tablets incase there was a dirty bomb.
(57:39):
I mean, I'm not kidding you.
I am not getting you.
It feels so crazy, but theproblem is, if something
happens, then you're like, Oh,why didn't I do anything?
You know, I mean, what an idiotI was, cause I didn't prepare.
(58:00):
But, but in the moment you feellike totally an over-reactor.
I think what's driving us at themoment is fear of what the other
side might do or moretruthfully, perhaps fear of what
(58:21):
the president may do.
And thus what might happen as aresult, because he has a lot of
power in this situation.
He could say, I want to stopcounting votes, or he could push
a conflict.
So when we were in Bangladesh,there was so much that went on
with cartels and you know, thegeneral strikes and all the
(58:44):
other political unrest.
But you have lived through somuch more political unrest than
I ever have.
And I mean, at that point, ofcourse, we were under the
protection of the embassy, youknow, in that case, the high
commission.
And so I think we lived throughit really differently.
I remember one story about a guydriving a land Rover and he
(59:07):
drove it on a hartal day and hegot down to the center of town
and somebody said to him,"Excuseme, sir, could you please step
out of your car?
We'd like to burn it." Supposeyou didn't hear these stories at
the, at the British HighCommission, they were very
popular.
So obviously being foreign,being white, we had a very
(59:30):
different experience.
I mean, for us, it was just stayinside your house.
But for you as a Bangladeshi,you were living it in a
different way.
And I don't think I appreciatedthat at that point.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (59:44):
Yeah.
I think the sentence that youare looking for is fear of
unknown.
And so these, these ideasrunning wild, and it's been
fueled by all thismisinformation.
That is one aspect of it.
The other aspect of it is like,yes, you are very right.
(01:00:07):
When you say that when all thosethings happened, while you were
here, you were immune as aforeigner.
As a general culture, whateverhappens within ourselves, we are
happy to settle it withinourselves.
Bangladeshis don't want to hurt,especially guests.
(01:00:30):
Foreigners are always guests.
So that's why, you know, like Iwould very much believe that the
story, although it's feels likea bit exaggerated that, you know
, excuse me, sorry.
Kelley Lynch (01:00:40):
Well, you know, you know the power of British
storytelling, right?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:00:44):
Exactly.
Kelley Lynch (01:00:45):
As somebody who's lived through political unrest,
how do you manage that?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:00:53):
You're forced to adapt.
This adaptability makes youresilient to all these political
changes.
You have never seen this.
You have a steady, smoothlifestyle.
That's makes it difficult foryou to adjust.
It's like you're driving on afantastically paved highway.
(01:01:14):
And then you have this one patch- a mile long patch, which is
really rough and, you know, fullof potholes and things like
that.
When you have a smooth highway,you drive like 60, 70 miles an
hour.
And suddenly you jump into thispothole ridden patch and the car
(01:01:37):
starts flying all over the road,you know, jumping all over the
road and you have zero controlof the car.
It's something like that.
All your life, you have beendriving on this high-speed, you
know, no obstacle road andsuddenly it's a different kind
of road that you have.
You are not prepared tonavigate.
(01:01:59):
That's what makes itfrightening.
Again, if I go for the caranalogy, the cars are made to
withstand potholes.
You don't know how much strengthis in your car because you have
never put it to the t est.
Kelley Lynch (01:02:15):
So that's like the that's an interesting point.
Actually.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:02:20):
You're democratic,--all the
institutions which uphold thedemocracy, you have never put
them to the test.
Kelley Lynch (01:02:26):
Probably the civil war.
But I mean, we've changed a lotsince then.
So would you say that what youhave learned from your
experience would then beentirely different, do you think
from, from ours?
I mean, because you're comingfrom a different kind of country
(01:02:47):
with a newer democracy.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:02:48):
But in the end, you're dealing with
people.
People all over the world arethe same.
They may look different.
They may feel different, but thebasic human qualities are the
same.
So I am banking on that basichuman quality.
(01:03:11):
And with 200 years of smoothdriving, you may have become a
bit soft, but deep down inside,you still getting those basic
human qualities.
So I'm not worried for you.
You will have a rough patch likethe COVID itself.
(01:03:34):
Like Cindy was saying that shemisses history.
Now she has seen historyfirsthand.
This would be something thatwould be similar.
You'd see what we go through dayin, day out in the so-called
third world countries.
In the'80s, early 80's, theelected president was murdered
(01:04:00):
and the interim government, likethe democratized system, the
interim government tookover.
But at one point, the army chieftook over the power and he was
the dictator who ran the countryfor 10 years.
(01:04:23):
And after 10 years people hadenough of his corruption and
basically lack of democracy inthe system that they thought
enough is enough.
And so there was like a regularunrest for three months, huge
(01:04:46):
unrest.
And one day suddenly everybodycame out to the streets.
They were not protesting.
They just came out to thestreets.
And there were military withmachine guns.
And the vehicles patrolling thestreets and they could not move
(01:05:11):
because literally the wholestreet was packed with people
who did not about the bullets orthe machine guns or the
military.
They just stood there.
Non-violent they were notthreatening anybody.
And you know, at that point, themilitary gave up.
(01:05:36):
You know, it was likeoverwhelming.
So they joined the people andthey forced Ershad to resign.
Every situation is like a dominoeffect.
Once one thing falls, it startsa chain reaction and things
changed rapidly.
Like within 24 hours, everythingchanged and Ershad was gone.
(01:06:02):
Such is the power of people.
Kelley Lynch (01:06:06):
So, any last parting words of wisdom that you
have before?
I mean, because it's possible.
I mean, I'm sure I'll talk toyou on election day or election
night, but any parting wordsbefore we head down this last
track to the election?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:06:28):
This is going to be a long road.
So brace yourself for that.
Don't think that with all thesystem, this is going to end
soon.
Healing will take such a longtime.
It's so easy to break a system,but to rebuild a system takes so
(01:06:49):
much effort, so much time and somuch strength.
So the only thing that I hopeand pray for you as a nation,
that you have that strength andthat you have that perseverance
to withstand that long struggleahead.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:13):
Thank you.
All right.
Talk to you soon.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:07:17):
Take care.
Bye.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:19):
Bye.
We're so glad you're still here.
I know this was a really longepisode, but I hope you found it
useful, but just wanted toremind you that we've got our
website, a new normalpodcast.com.
(01:07:43):
That's where you can subscribeto the podcast and to our
newsletter, you can readreviews, you can leave reviews
and we would love for you to dothat.
You can also find moreinformation about us and get in
touch in the coming weeks.
We're going to be featuringpeople who are being the change
in their own communities.
(01:08:04):
And we've already got a few ofthose people lined up, but we
would love to hear from you.
If you've got a good story,please click on contact and get
in touch.
We're not quite sure what'shappening next week.
I think most of America is notquite sure what's happening next
week.
We will be back, be sure andvote and take good care.
(01:08:27):
See you later.
Hey, I'm going to go get a trolley.
Cindy Sealls (00:07):
Okay.
Kelley Lynch & Cindy Sealls (00:21):
So what did we need again?
Gas c an.
O h yeah, for the generator?
I think th ere w e re o t her here.
Oh, here's one.
(00:46):
Are we forgetting anything?
Uh, w e have, let's see, youalready have emergency food,
water containers, flashlights,chargers.
I think we've got everything.
Kelley Lynch (00:56):
You know, this whole thing just still feels so
weird to me.
I feel like some sort ofconspiracy theorist or some sort
of prepper person.
Um, it's just weird.
I mean, this is an election andthis is America.
Cindy Sealls (01:20):
It suddenly occurred to me as we're standing
here in home Depot with maskson, thank you for shopping at
the home Depot buying suppliesin case there is some trouble
with a contested election.
I almost want to say is this oneof my covid dreams?
Kelley Lynch (01:44):
I wish it was one of your COVID dreams.
Cindy Sealls (02:00):
Hi, I'm Cindy and I'm Kelly.
Welcome to a new normal, apodcast about re-imagining a
future that starts with each oneof us.
Kelley Lynch (02:09):
You know, today with concerns around the
election at a fever pitch, we'retalking about a topic that has
us alternately feeling likeChicken Little and Pollyanna.
And yet I think we're not alonebecause everywhere you look, it
seems people are prepping forthis election.
(02:31):
Officials in closely contestedStates are preparing for
potential election relatedviolence.
Wall street is bracing forelection related market
turbulence.
There are podcasts about wargames simulations around the
election and the months that will follow it.
And the Carter Center, whichroutinely oversees elections in
(02:55):
countries where democracy isunder severe threat has for the
first time in its history,trained its eyes on an election
in the United States, and manywould say with good reason.
The president has stoked fearsof voter fraud; actively sought
to limit which ballots will becounted and of course, flirted
(03:16):
with the possibility of anauthoritarian power grab by
suggesting that he's iffy abouta peaceful transfer of power,
should he lose the election.
Add to this, the feelings ofanger, distrust, grievance, and
partisan division.
And it looks like we're headedinto an election season that
(03:36):
will be if nothing elseinteresting.
Cindy Sealls (03:40):
And so when a friend forwarded an email about
a training that would help usprepare for the possibility of a
contested election, we decidedit was definitely worth our
virtual attendance.
The training called ChooseDemocracy was designed by civil
rights, veteran George Lakey,and has been taken by tens of
thousands of people.
(04:01):
It's premise can be distilledinto a few simple sentences.
We will vote and we will refuseto accept election results until
all of the votes are counted.
And if this, the most basicprinciple of democracy is
denied, then we the people willdefend our democracy through
non-violent protest.
(04:23):
Now it's important to say herethat no one candidate is
supported for the win.
The objective is simply thatdemocratic processes are honored
and all votes are counted.
Of course, this year manyscenarios suggest that the
election may not play out over aday or even a week, but more
(04:44):
like the 2000 election in aseason.
About a week after the training,we sat down with facilitators,
Michael Levy, a long- termactivist schooled in nonviolence
and Elaine Duncan, a healer andauthor of the Tao of trauma
whose East meets West approachto trauma feels more needed than
ever.
(05:04):
We hope you find ourconversation useful.
Kelley Lynch (05:07):
And one last thing we hope you'll stay tuned after
this conversation for a shortconversation with our co-host
Tanvir in Bangladesh, a countrythat has definitely seen its
fair share of struggles fordemocracy,
Cindy Sealls (05:23):
Michael and Lainie, welcome to the podcast.
Michael Levy (05:28):
Thank you.
I'm delighted to be here.
Kelley Lynch (05:31):
Maybe you guys could tell us a little bit about
who you are and what you do, andthen we'll go from there.
Michael Levy (05:37):
All right.
So my name is Michael Levi.
I'm a member of Adelphi FriendsMeeting, a Quaker.
Before I had children so many,many years ago, I was very
involved with the peacemovement, the anti intervention
movement, the anti-nuclearmovement, and among other things
(06:02):
spent many of my evenings andweekends training people in
non-violence in civildisobedience and in how to be
effective politically.
How to bring peaceful, butradical change to a world that
(06:26):
desperately needs it.
And just a few weeks ago in ourQuaker Meeting, someone gave a
message and started by quotingthe saying that the antidote to
helplessness is action and kindof elaborated on that a bit and
(06:48):
changed it a little to theantidote to helplessness is
community.
And to me that just resonated.
In this moment where it is soeasy to feel despair, to kind of
watch catastrophe unfolding inan almost inevitable way, the
(07:13):
thought that we can take actionand that we don't have to take
action by ourselves, but we cando it with community.
Just kind of sets off a lightbulb in my head and it just
changes everything.
And so in my mind, that's whatLaney and I are trying to
(07:34):
achieve here.
It is trying to help ourselves,but others as well to see that
we can be actors, we don't haveto be the audience.
And if we do it with others,we're more powerful.
We're safer.
We're more likely to beeffective and we will get the
(07:57):
sustenance.
We need to keep us going.
Lainie Duncan (08:00):
So I'm Elaine Duncan.
I go by Laine to my friends.
I'm an acupuncturist.
I'm also a fellow member ofAdelphi Friends Meeting with
Michael.
I'm an acupuncturist with a kindof unique specialization in the
integration of neurobiology oftraumatic stress with
acupuncture nation medicine.
(08:21):
And I've developed quite aninterest in the study of trauma
and how it influences not onlyindividuals, but also our
nation.
So I've watched the summerunfold and watch the, what I
would call from this integrativeperspective, the sympathetic
arousal that's come on thestreets and also watched the
(08:45):
energy body of our nationexpand.
There's more space in our energybody for a broader conversation
about issues of race, issues ofthe environment, issues of
COVID-19.
There's a wider conversation anda bigger conversation.
And in fact, there's been somemovement and change towards
creating a bigger world.
(09:06):
We've engaged in a much broaderdialogue about white supremacy
and about transgender rights andall kinds of things.
And I think that's been becausewe've been able to release some
of the sympathetic arousalthat's been thwarted and not
allowed to express itself reallyfor generations.
So I've kind of developed thisreal fascination for looking at
(09:28):
our nation through this lens oftrauma physiology.
And through this lens of therole that healers can play in
creating a better world for usall to live in.
Cindy Sealls (09:47):
Tell us more about the choose democracy training.
Michael Levi (09:53):
Choose Democracy is a, it's really a network
founded by George Lakey, who isa very long time, um, activist,
uh, going back to the civilrights movement and pretty much
every movement for social changesince then.
And they, as well as many otherpeople in this country have
(10:19):
identified the period fromelection day to inauguration day
as a time of great risk with areal potential for a power grab,
an illegitimate power grab.
And what Choose Democracy isinsisting upon is that every
(10:48):
valid ballot be counted.
That the election not bedeclared finished until all
those ballots are counted.
And that whoever has won thevote becomes the next precedent.
And there's concern that inparticular Donald Trump will not
(11:11):
respect that.
And there's a number ofdifferent scenarios that that
would fall under the umbrella ofillegitimate power grab.
Michael Levy (11:23):
So Choose Democracy is, is trying to do,
and what Lainie and I arehelping with is kind of a two
phase approach to this.
One is to do our best to preventa power grab from taking place
in the first place.
And that means organizing andbeing visible before the
(11:43):
election.
So that a coup is discouragedand doesn't happen in the first
place, but then also beingprepared to take action if such
a coup occurs sometime betweenthe election and inauguration.
A lot of this work is based on agreat deal of research into
(12:10):
coups around the world over thelast 50 years.
What makes them successful?
What makes them fail?
And the evidence shows thatcoups are typically defeated
within a matter of days three tofive days, maybe as long as two
as two weeks, but that's kind ofpushing it.
(12:33):
And after a certain time periodhas passed, the power grab
becomes entrenched and becomesmuch more difficult to overturn.
The second is that the magictipping point is when about
three and a half percent of thepopulation visibly opposes the
(12:54):
coup.
And that there have been few, ifany instances of coups in the
last 30, 40 years, which wereopposed by three and a half
percent of the population thatwere successful.
In other words, once you hitthree and a half percent and in
the United States, that'sbetween 11 and 12 million
people, once you hit that pointcoups fail, period.
(13:19):
So mobilizing people, gettingpeople to be visibly supporting
democratic process democraticrule is absolutely essential.
Um, and then the third facet isthat non-violent opposition to a
coup is dramatically moresuccessful from a purely
(13:39):
pragmatic basis, two or threetimes as successful as violent
opposition to a coup.
And again, this has been borneout empirically in case after
case.
So what we're trying to do isfirst of all, prevent a coup
from happening in the firstplace, but then should we find
(14:02):
ourselves in a situation wherethere's an illegitimate power
grab, that people are ready toact rapidly and effectively
because we have days; we onlyhave days to make a big
difference.
Kelley Lynch (14:27):
I could see people saying that this is all a bit
alarmist, and I could also seethat one of the big questions
would be at what point do youtake action?
Because I think it's like that,that old story of the frog
boiling in the water, right?
I mean, it gets hotter andhotter.
And, and particularly with whatwe've seen to this point, it's a
(14:50):
very slippery thing.
You know, the envelope getspushed and then things kind of
move into that space and youjust think, okay, we should have
stopped this.
Well, we should have stoppedthat.
You could see that there's avery slippery progression and it
would be very hard to knowpotentially when to get involved
and thus, you know, you couldalso feel very alarmist, like,
(15:13):
you know, you could be runningaround and people will be like,
ah, you're a chicken little,come on.
So how do you think about that?
Michael Levy (15:20):
I have to agree that there is a piece of me that
just feels silly talking about acoup in the United States.
I think there's just kind ofthis real cognitive dissonance,
where I was raised to think ofthe United States as the beacon
of democracy, the model for theworld, the example of successful
(15:46):
democracy for centuries.
And so to seriously contemplatethe fact that that might end and
it might end within the nextmonth or two.
Um, there's a piece of me thatfeels like, you know, you're
overreacting.
Um, that's ridiculous.
You've turned into one of theseparanoid people that you always
(16:08):
sneered at.
And yet the political situation,certainly in the last four
years, but it didn't really evenstart four years ago.
It's been going on for a while,has led me to believe that it is
rational, not to assume that acoup is inevitable, but that
(16:32):
it's a real possibility.
You know, the presidents on wellfor a long time refusal to
commit to a peaceful transfer ofpower is a pretty strong signal.
And he's made some movement awayfrom that in recent days, but
(16:53):
it's hard to know what tobelieve.
And, you know, the possibilitythat a large number of ballots
will not be counted or thatcompeting, uh, delegations to
the electoral college will beappointed; that a state of
emergency could be declared atsome point and, um, used to work
(17:16):
, uh, the democratic process orthat the president could simply
refuse to leave the white house.
These just don't seem like wildfantasies anymore.
They truly seem like plausiblescenarios.
And I think your analogy of thefrog and the slowly heating
water is a very good one.
(17:38):
It is conceivable that therewill be a point where it's like,
it's very clear.
It just happened, but we're nottalking about kind of the
stereotypical scenario where,you know, the troops storm the
presidential palace and takeover the national television
station.
(17:58):
You know, that's not how it'sgoing to work in the United
States.
It will be gradual though,potentially rapid.
It would be really nice if therewere a single respected
authority who could tell us,okay, the line has been crossed,
go, and here's what you need todo.
(18:19):
That's not going to happen.
That's not the way it works.
This is where we individuallyand collectively have to take
responsibility.
And we have to assess thesituation and say, okay, now the
line has been crossed and weneed to start acting.
That could be at slightlydifferent points for different
(18:40):
people.
But I do think the general sensewill be fairly clear.
There's going to be a greatnumber of people looking at
what's unfolding and talkingabout what's unfolding, taking
action in response to what'sunfolding.
And the important thing is thatwe not rely on, you know, some
(19:03):
other authority to tell us, butthat we take agency in this,
that we trust our own instincts.
Um, or our instincts with thoseof our communities and move when
it feels necessary.
Lainie Duncan (19:18):
I just want to add just a little bit, because
in some ways the coup is alreadyhappening in terms of voter
suppression, attacks on thepostal service that don't allow
if the efficient movement ofmail, lack of locations for
voting, pushing through aSupreme Court justice that is
going to tilt the court in adramatic way so that if the
(19:40):
election lands in the Supremecourt, there's a certain
predictability about what mighthappen.
So to me, like focusing on theelection is creating an, an
environment and perhaps aculture for us to cultivate
relationships and cultivatemeaningful responses in our
communities to help preservepeace, to help preserve the
(20:04):
honoring the voice of everyindividual in our country.
Ensuring the rights of allvoices to be heard.
It's part of our ongoingchallenge to create the world
that we want.
And we can name, you know,November 3rd is as the dating
question, but really it's today.
(20:24):
It's now it's.
How do I relate to my neighbors?
How do I relate to people whoare new to my country, who left
the land of their ancestors andare trying to make a new world
here?
Just like many of our ancestorsdid, some of our ancestors came
against their will.
How do we help create a worldthat's welcoming for everyone?
(20:45):
It's today.
It's not November 3rd.
And I think that the challengeis how do we approach these
kinds of questions in a way thatensures that we're approaching
them from a point of view ofrelationship and not just simple
reactivity?
You know, it's easy when we feelthreatened to want to throw sand
(21:08):
in our friend's face or kickdown their sandcastle, but we
have to be able to inhibit thosekinds of impulsive actions that
are antisocial and don't buildcommunity.
Don't build trust between peoplewho are different from us.
How do we inhibit those?
And instead respond throughdiplomatic kinds of ways that
involve our voice, our sense ofrelationship, our sense of
(21:32):
connection with each other.
So it's very connected to traumaphysiology, actually, how we're
going to relate to each otherand how are we going to solve
our nation's problems?
How are we going to make use ofour more mature, more human
aspect of our physiology andless use of that reactive,
violent, more primitive style ofthinking that's rigid, black and
(21:54):
white impulsive, and so on.
We need to cultivate regulationand relationship so that we can
operate in a higher humanfunction.
Kelley Lynch (22:04):
Absolutely.
Maybe you guys could a littlebit more about non-violence and
(22:26):
what's productive and, and howthat works for change.
And, um, you know, it seemedthis summer kind of like it's,
maybe it's a little bit out offavor, you know, I mean, there
was a lot of clashing and it washappening from, with people from
both sides.
Michael Levy (22:49):
The black lives matter protests over the summer
were overwhelmingly peaceful.
There were instances ofviolence, but I do not believe
that they, in any way representthe movement that took place
since the killing of GeorgeFloyd, I'm some protesters will
(23:10):
become overwrought and takeactions that they might not
under other circumstances.
And sometimes it's just the rageboils over and people do act out
of that undiluted frustrationand anger.
What you did see was a lot ofpeople in crowds, speaking with
(23:34):
their peers, doing their best tocalm them.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
So nonviolence, like I said, theresearch shows that it is very,
it is extremely effective.
And, you know, when I look atthe kind of movements that have
adopted nonviolence, there'skind of three places that these
(23:58):
come from one is a religious orethical basis.
And Quakers clearly are one ofthose groups, but it's by no
means limited to Quakers.
There's a strong non-violentstrain in say Catholicism in
Protestant Christianity, butalso in other faith traditions.
(24:19):
Obviously, um, Gandhi wasadmitted the whole concept of a
hemostat, which is non harm isessential to Hinduism, Buddhism,
and Janism.
Um, so that's, that's, you know,actually substantial percentage
of the world population andIslam.
(24:40):
I mean, Islam is a religion ofpeace and there is a strong
non-violent strain runningthrough Islamic theology, going
back a very long time.
(25:00):
So that there's kind of thereligious ethical strain.
There's the strategic strain,which does not come from kind of
a philosophical ground.
And, but it's really kind ofcoldly pragmatic, disciplined
non- violence works.
(25:21):
And history shows that it worksat least as often and probably
more often than violence.
I mean, you know, the reality isthe most opposition to
entrenched power fails acrossthe board.
That's why we call it entrenchedpower.
And, you know, whether you'reviolent or not, the likelihood
(25:46):
is that entrenched power has allthe tools to stay in power.
But so, we look at thesuccessful resistance.
There have been a number ofscholars, especially over the
last 40 years, who have studiedthis and purely pragmatically on
nonviolence is effective.
(26:06):
And then there's the kind oftactical approach, which is in
this situation right now,nonviolence seems to be the best
tactic we have.
The danger there is that it'seasy to stray.
I mean, I remember the firsttime I got a Billy club to the
head and up until that point, Iwas like, I'm going to be
(26:31):
non-violent.
And there was a periodafterwards where I was just so
angry about this, you know, thatI really questioned it.
So I think tactical non-violenceis dangerous because it's easy
to kind of fall off the wagon.
I think strategic nonviolence isprobably the center that really
matters here.
(26:53):
When we think about nonviolence,sometimes we think about civil
disobedience, you know, sit-insthat sort of thing.
But the range of tactics ismuch, much broader than that.
Ranging from talking toneighbors or putting a sign in
your window or in your frontyard, and then including things
(27:17):
like strikes or boycotts, um,simply refusing to cooperate
with institutions that areunjust all the way to
demonstrations, picket lines,civil disobedience, um, you
know, direct action.
So, there's really a very broadspectrum to choose from.
(27:43):
And, you know, a boycott,there's nothing violent about a
boycott.
There's nothing illegal about aboycott.
It's simply refusing to purchasesomething.
A sick out, you know, calling insick to work, an organized
sick-out.
There's nothing illegal aboutnot going to work one day.
Um, but it can have enormouseffect.
(28:06):
When you look at the Montgomerybus boycott, as an example of
simply refusing to do what isexpected of you; to participate
in things as usual.
Now, the boycotters inMontgomery paid a price for
this.
Among other things, there weremany people who walked for miles
(28:29):
for hours to get to work, butthis boycott transformed the
climate, not only in the publictransportation system and not
only in Montgomery, butnationwide.
And this is the kind of effectthat disciplined non-violence
can have.
And coming back to some of thethings we were talking about
(28:50):
earlier, what piece of ourselvesdo we bring to this?
I do think it's critical to cometo political action from a
position of centeredness as bestwe are able.
So, you know, one of thetechniques in confrontation say,
(29:13):
a demonstration where there arecounter-demonstrators is to look
at the people who are yelling atyou and smile and look them in
the eye and speak softly.
Now I've been thinking that'smuch harder.
(29:34):
It's not harder to do, but theeffect will be different when
you're wearing a mask becausethe smile is not obvious.
And so I've been thinking a lotabout that actually.
And two things struck me.
First of all, that we also smilewith our eyes, but perhaps
(29:54):
equally important.
If I am smiling, I have theright attitude to diffuse the
situation, whether anyone elsesees it or not, it puts me in a
place where I am likely to bemuch more effective in
de-escalating the threat,whether anyone else knows about
it or not.
(30:14):
And it reminded me, I used todo, I used to be a peacekeeper
for demonstrations.
And so a group of us would kindof be responsible for
maintaining the peaceful natureof often very large
demonstrations.
And I remember kind of being atthe edge of a demonstration
(30:36):
with, I don't know how manythousand people and getting a
call over my radio, saying therewas a potential disturbance on
the far side of the crowd.
And could we get there as fastas possible because we might
need to intervene andpeacekeepers typically have arm
bands or t-shirts or hats orsomething that identifies them
as such.
(30:57):
And so you can imagine that agroup of, you know, kind of the
moral equivalent of peoplewearing uniforms, running
through a crowd with seriouslooks on their faces is not
going to calm things down.
It's going to alarm everybody.
So we said, so how can we get tothe other side of the crowd
really quickly without alarminganyone?
(31:19):
And what we did was we startedskipping and we started singing
the Wizard of Oz song, you know,we're off to see the wizard.
You can skip really quickly.
So it's almost as fast asrunning.
You know, it was very effectiveas a tool to get to the other
side of the crowd.
Everyone that we passed in thedemonstration smiled at us.
(31:43):
And when we got to thedisturbance, we were all really
happy, you know, because youcan't skip and sing and not be
happy.
So we entered the confrontationfeeling good.
So that's the kind of piece ofourselves that we can bring to
(32:05):
confrontation, where we candeescalate situations, where we
can be very effective.
Even through silliness.
We make a difference.
Lainie Duncan (32:28):
I heard your comment earlier, Kelly, about
the summer and the arousal outon the streets and bouncing off
of what Michael said.
And also what you said.
I want to just jump in with alittle bit of neurophysiology.
There's very interestingresearch.
It's called epigenetics.
It says that if my generationsthat preceded me experienced
(32:50):
threat, experienced trauma, buttheir ability to protect and
defend themselves and others whowere vulnerable was thwarted.
They were unable to completetheir punch.
Held back from running thatforwarded arousal will influence
the genetic imprint of theirancestors.
(33:11):
So for example, they did somefascinating research with mice,
where they put male mice in acage and put electric shocks in
the floor of the cage and pumpedin the smell of cherry blossoms.
At the same time, it became truethat they could just pump in the
cherry blossom smell without anyelectrical current and the mice
(33:31):
would go into arousal.
They put some female mice inthere, mated the females, took
the males out before the pupswere born and their pups, you
put cherry blossom smell in thecage a nd their pups would go
into arousal.
And that went on for severalgenerations.
All that was needed was thecherry blossom smell.
So daddy granddaddy, greatgranddaddy actually was sending
(33:55):
the message to their heirs, Ifyou smell cherry blossoms, you
need to be worried.
You need to respond.
You need to react.
So that obviously mice are muchless complicated than human
beings, but there's beenfascinating research in that
adverse childhood experiencesresearch in the centers for
(34:15):
disease control aboutintergenerational up to three
generations in human beings ofHolocaust survivors, of
oppressed nationalities, ofpeople who have generations of
war behind them, that they'regoing to have arousal in their
system.
That's one thing that I think isreally relevant because it then
(34:36):
plays into higher levels ofmortality and morbidity with
COVID because immune systems incommunities of color, because
our immune system is lesseffective when it's influenced
by traumatic stress.
So it's kind of too much tothink that a community of people
who have experienced generationsof threat before them, when that
(35:00):
arousal has a chance to beexpressed that it's going to be
polite or it's going to bemeasured, or it's going to be
even all the time.
So that's one thing that we knowfrom release of stress.
The other thing, and this kindof dovetails into your
instructions, Michael, thatthere's what we call a
neurologic platform in ourautonomic nervous system.
(35:23):
Then it's about our capacity tohave relationship.
So the more that we're able toexperience safety and
relationship, the more able weare to mitigate impulsive,
potentially violent actions andthe ventral vagus nerve to be
exact that helps us be inrelationship and resolve
conflicts in the context ofdiplomacy, rather than knock
(35:46):
your socks off.
It enervates the smile, wrinklesaround our eyes.
It enervates our whole face.
It enervates our capacity tohear distinctions of sound.
So we can hear tone of voice andrecognize safety and
relationship when we use lowtones, when we speak more
(36:08):
slowly, we're more likely tofeel safe and connected.
Then if we're running fast andmaking a lot of noise.
So we can consciously use thesetechniques of smiling underneath
our mask, because our smileshows up on our whole face.
It isn't only on our mouth.
And we can use quieter voice,softer voice, slower pace as
(36:33):
techniques to help people feelsafe.
And when they feel safe, they'remore able to make decisions and
choices that include the sevengenerations that are coming
after as well as the sevengenerations that came before.
And that's what we want to beable to achieve as peacemakers
is the ability to take in thewhole community and the future,
(36:57):
and honor the past.
So consciously using theseapproaches that put us on what I
call a neurologic platform thatallows for diplomacy and problem
solving instead of reactivity,we're going to be better off.
Cindy Sealls (37:18):
Say something happens and we make a decision.
I make a decision Kelley.
We say, Hey, let's go out here.
And we're going to do ournonviolent thing in a crowd of
people.
How do you get people to buyinto that behavior that you all
just described?
When, you know, when we're outhere showing that we are not
(37:41):
supporting this person with thiskind of behavior.
You know, usually when, when yougo to a protest, it's like, Hey,
Hey, ho ho y ou k now,everybody's yelling.
Lainie Duncan (37:53):
And there's lots of ways to help your body
access.
This more regulated aspect ofour nervous system.
That's going to be moreeffective in a situation like
this.
So one thing is, don't go alone.
Go with a friend, someone whoyou trust, and you have a caring
relationship with so that youcan co-regulate with each other,
(38:16):
because a uto-e gulation arisesout of co-regulation with your
pal.
Then there are things likesinging a song or a chat
actually stimulates that nervethat helps us make decisions out
of relationship.
So sing a song that has somemeaning to you and sing it with
(38:39):
other people so that thevibration is being carried from
person to person and beingenhanced through the context of
relationship.
There's also this veryinteresting thing.
If we rock ourselves, we willself- soothe.
This is why our parents walkedthe floors with us when we were
(39:00):
infants and we couldn't sootheourselves.
They used this technique ofrocking.
So you may be in a crowd whereyou're swaying as a community.
You're actually helping toregulate your nervous system and
keep by a regulated nervoussystem.
We'll be able to make subtle andnuanced choices instead of
(39:21):
reactive impulsive ones, likethrowing a bottle that might be
acting out, but would bestrategically less effective at
calming a situation down andharnessing a group energy field
that makes something impossibleto happen, which is what we want
to do.
We want to harness the energy ofa large group of people that
(39:43):
says, no, we're going to countall the votes.
We need to create a culture thatan energy field that ensures
democracy.
Michael Levy (40:04):
I just wanted to echo and reinforce what Lainie
said.
If you're going to go to ademonstration, go with a friend,
but ideally go with a group offriends with whom you have
already discussed, how faryou're willing to go, what
you're willing to do, what youthink is effective in different
situations.
I mean, I call those affinitygroups.
(40:26):
I understand the current term ofart is democracy pods, which I
love.
The second thing is that infact, crowds are very
suggestible that that's one ofthe power powers, but also
dangers of crowds.
(40:48):
So there was an example thissummer at a Black Lives Matter
protest in Philadelphia, wherepolice started to throw tear gas
at demonstrators.
And the typical reaction ifyou're being gassed is to run.
And when a large group of peoplestarts running, it is just
(41:11):
physically dangerous for thoseinvolved, you know, people g et
jostled, people could fall,people could get trampled.
You kind of lose perspective ina potentially harmful way.
One of the demonstrators raisedtheir hand and started saying,
(41:31):
at the top of, chanting at thetop of their lungs, walk slowly,
walk slowly and model thebehavior and turn to the person
next to them and says, do whatI'm doing.
And the second person did andother people did.
And that whole portion of thecrowd, instead of running walked
(41:52):
slowly away from the tear gas.
One's influence can go waybeyond yourself and the people,
you know.
In a situation like that, beingclear as to what you're
advocating and doing it in acalm way can influence an
(42:14):
enormous number of people.
But the last thing I wanted tosay to this is that non-
violence and conflict are not anopposition.
Non- violence is an approach toconflict.
It is not pretending conflictdoes not exist.
It is not escaping conflict.
(42:37):
It is active participation inconflict in a non-violent
manner.
So to me, a crowd that ischanting is a wonderful thing.
It is people taking back theirpower being clear.
This is one technique ofnon-violent action.
Lainie Duncan (43:09):
The one thing I'd like to add to what Michael said
about sort of the benefit ofbeing in relationship and being
in an experience of safety in agroup is that we're more able to
make this important distinctionbetween I'm uncomfortable and
I'm unsafe.
Because if I mistake beinguncomfortable for being unsafe,
(43:34):
I'm more likely to do a reallystupid violent thing.
Every time an African-Americanyoung man gets shot, the person
who did the shooting says, I wasscared for my life.
I didn't feel safe, but theyweren't unsafe.
They were blowing their ownanxiety, their own discomfort
(43:55):
through someone else's body.
So we need to be able to havethat moment of time between the
impulse.
"I don't feel safe." And ouraction that can discern"is it
that I'm uncomfortable or is itthat I'm unsafe?" And if I'm
(44:17):
uncomfortable, can I look at whyI'm uncomfortable and maybe
create a little more spacearound that?
I think that's really what ourworld is asking us to do is to
create a little more space sothat we don't act out these
impulsive, reactive, potentiallyviolent anti- social kinds of
(44:39):
actions.
And instead can deal with ourdiscomfort, to deal with why am
I this uncomfortable?
Why is that so?
What can I do with myself tohelp myself feel more safe and
more in greater and deeperrelationship so that I can
create the world that I want tocreate.
(45:04):
As a healer, I'm committed tohelping people understand the
impact of historic and currenttrauma on our ability to be
human beings with each other.
I'm really committed to that asa tool for social
transformation.
The question is how do we workwith our own nervous system so
that when someone is in front ofus and we really disagree with
(45:28):
them, we really think their ideais leading our country in the
wrong direction; and we start tofeel that urge to protect and
defend.
We start to feel that urge intowhat I'll call sympathetic
arousal.
We want to punch their lightsout, basically.
So how do we stay inrelationship, especially if it's
uncle Fred, you know, or, orsister S ue, you know, like
(45:51):
people who we actually love inspite of having a disagreement
with them, how do we stay inourselves and in relationship
enough so that we can continuethe conversation in a more
thoughtful way and actually cometo a conclusion.
Because w hile I don't thinkthat all sides are equal, there
(46:12):
are elements of value in whateverybody has to say.
And the person who's saying thething that's really racist or
really homophobic, or reallyexpressing a violent solution.
Like they're coming to thatstate of mind out of their own
(46:35):
contracted experience of athreat.
They feel threatened.
So the more they feelthreatened, the more likely
they're going to have thesekinds of narrow, rigid thought
patterns.
So our energy field, our ventralvagus nerve, which emanates from
our hearts, it actually has avibrational field of six to
(46:55):
eight feet.
So that the more that we canstay regulated when we're
talking with someone who is sixto eight feet away from us, we
can actually influence theregulation that's in their
energy field, by having a lovingpresence, having a thoughtful,
slowed down pace, using a deepertone of voice.
(47:19):
Help me understand.
Express curiosity, not judgment.
Like how can I understand that?
I have this friend who's, who's,uh, who's gay, who's
transgendered.
They are pretty meaningful andimportant person to me.
How can you, how do youreconcile that for me?
(47:41):
When you say that really narrow,rigid thing?
You know, make it relational,make it personal and, and try
not to shout, you know, theelection is going to happen on
November 3rd, but the the senseof arousal in our nation is not
going to be done on November4th.
These dynamics of needing tohelp bring some regulation to
(48:05):
our communities from theoutside, in terms of the
political structures, as well asfrom the inside of individuals
finding regulation forthemselves.
Those two things need tocontinue to be happening in
partnership with each other.
It's a bigger dynamic that we'regoing to be figuring out how to
resolve for probably for yearsto come.
(48:30):
You were going to leave thelisteners with some tools or
some things that they could lookinto.
Some things that they could do.
Some things that they could kindof take away.
What would that be for you?
Michael Levy (48:45):
I think it would be that no one is going to come
and magically save us.
We are responsible for savingourselves and you don't have to
be a hero.
You don't have to be a Saint.
You don't have to beextraordinary in any way.
(49:09):
All you need to be is yourself.
To stand firm for the things inwhich you believe.
To speak with your family, yourfriends, your neighbors, and
find people who will act withyou.
Power can come from the bottomup.
The most effective power comesfrom the bottom up, and it is
(49:33):
our responsibility and ouropportunity.
We can make the world a betterplace.
We just need to stop waiting forpeople to tell us how to do it.
We need to do it ourselves.
Cindy Sealls (49:44):
Lainie, you shared this great meditation at the
start of our training session.
And I wondered if you'd like toshare that now.
Lainie Duncan (50:01):
So give yourself a moment to simply find yourself
in your chair.
Maybe check in with your bonesand invite them to be heavy.
Invite your muscles and yoursoft tissue to be soft so that
your bones can sink and settleinto your body.
(50:24):
And maybe you're in a spacewhere you have a window and you
can look outside and maybethere's something beautiful out
there, a tree or some clouds orbright sun stars, whatever you
see out there.
Just let yourself look outsideand see what you find that you
(50:49):
find pleasant.
And notice what happens as youshift your attention from your,
the worries of your day, thechallenges of your day to that
tree.
It's quite magnificent andamazing.
What happens inside you?
(51:10):
There might be some movement.
There might be some stillnessmight be a change in your breath
or your sense of tension in yourtissue.
And then bring your attentioninto the room that you're in.
See if there's maybe a piece ofart or photograph, a special
(51:36):
book that's meaningful to you, acolor that you like.
Just look for pleasure.
Let yourself look for pleasureand notice what happens.
Maybe you feel heavier.
Maybe you feel lighter.
(51:56):
Maybe you feel more present.
Just notice.
And I'd love for you to bring tomind.
(52:18):
Next, the next layer bring tomind a person, someone alive or
dead, might be a pet, could befour legged might be two legged.
Bring to mind someone who eitherholds you in high regard,
respects you, someone who youfeel safe when you're in their
(52:38):
presence.
Someone who's always encouragingor relational and loving.
Someone who cares about you.
Could be someone from long ago.
Might be a grandparent, schoolteacher, an aunt or uncle.
Just invite them to come and bewith you.
(53:00):
And again, notice any movement,any stillness, any emotions or
(53:27):
meanings that come up, any senseof safe connection,
relationship, ease, coherence,congruence.
(53:51):
And I invite you to use thisperson, this creature, or this
state of being, this experience.
You can bookmark it.
You can take a snapshot of howyou're feeling with this person,
with you.
And as you fall off to sleeptonight, bring this experience
(54:16):
back to you.
So you fall into sleep with thislittle bit more regulated state,
this ally, this comfortingpresence with you, and you can
invite them to come along withyou when you're going into a
(54:37):
challenging situation.
They can help you be morereflective and less reactive.
They can help you hold a longerscope- the seven generation.
They can help you choose adiplomatic solution instead of
(55:02):
an abrupt, potentially violentsolution.
They can help you distinguishI'm uncomfortable from I'm
unsafe.
And when you feel ready, youcan, if you've closed your eyes,
(55:23):
you can open them.
Come back to the room.
Maybe just note one word for howyou feel differently and let
that one word be your anchorpoint that brings you back to
this place.
Thank you, Laney, so much.
(55:45):
Yeah.
It's, it's amazing what we cando really to shift our neurology
to more productive and helpfulstates of being.
Kelley & Cindy (55:56):
Thanks, Michael.
Thanks, Lainie.
Take care.
Yeah, you too.
Bye bye.
Kelley Lynch (56:12):
Hey Tanvir.
For me listening to that andeven, even going to home Depot
like Cindy and I did, we boughta generator.
We've got no, I've been buyingan emergency radio bunch of
batteries.
Um, some emergency food.
(56:33):
I mean, but, but you know, Imean, in all honesty, I mean,
these are things I should havedone a long, long time ago in
preparation for any kind of astorm or anything else, but so
now it's there, but I can't, Ican't help but feel that it, I
mean, it feels likeoverreacting.
(56:53):
It feels like you're some sortof kooky crazy person.
And yet I was reading yesterdaythat like people on wall street
are prepping.
I mean, then there was a radiolab episode that I listened to
and it was all about how thesevery high-level people had done
(57:14):
essentially war games,simulations about all of this
and what would happen.
And they had four differentscenarios that they played out.
And then I know Cindy and I havesome friends like one friend we
went walking with and she is notan alarmist person at all, but
she was buying iodine tablets incase there was a dirty bomb.
(57:39):
I mean, I'm not kidding you.
I am not getting you.
It feels so crazy, but theproblem is, if something
happens, then you're like, Oh,why didn't I do anything?
You know, I mean, what an idiotI was, cause I didn't prepare.
(58:00):
But, but in the moment you feellike totally an over-reactor.
I think what's driving us at themoment is fear of what the other
side might do or moretruthfully, perhaps fear of what
(58:21):
the president may do.
And thus what might happen as aresult, because he has a lot of
power in this situation.
He could say, I want to stopcounting votes, or he could push
a conflict.
So when we were in Bangladesh,there was so much that went on
with cartels and you know, thegeneral strikes and all the
(58:44):
other political unrest.
But you have lived through somuch more political unrest than
I ever have.
And I mean, at that point, ofcourse, we were under the
protection of the embassy, youknow, in that case, the high
commission.
And so I think we lived throughit really differently.
I remember one story about a guydriving a land Rover and he
(59:07):
drove it on a hartal day and hegot down to the center of town
and somebody said to him,"Excuseme, sir, could you please step
out of your car?
We'd like to burn it." Supposeyou didn't hear these stories at
the, at the British HighCommission, they were very
popular.
So obviously being foreign,being white, we had a very
(59:30):
different experience.
I mean, for us, it was just stayinside your house.
But for you as a Bangladeshi,you were living it in a
different way.
And I don't think I appreciatedthat at that point.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (59:44):
Yeah.
I think the sentence that youare looking for is fear of
unknown.
And so these, these ideasrunning wild, and it's been
fueled by all thismisinformation.
That is one aspect of it.
The other aspect of it is like,yes, you are very right.
(01:00:07):
When you say that when all thosethings happened, while you were
here, you were immune as aforeigner.
As a general culture, whateverhappens within ourselves, we are
happy to settle it withinourselves.
Bangladeshis don't want to hurt,especially guests.
(01:00:30):
Foreigners are always guests.
So that's why, you know, like Iwould very much believe that the
story, although it's feels likea bit exaggerated that, you know
, excuse me, sorry.
Kelley Lynch (01:00:40):
Well, you know, you know the power of British
storytelling, right?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:00:44):
Exactly.
Kelley Lynch (01:00:45):
As somebody who's lived through political unrest,
how do you manage that?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:00:53):
You're forced to adapt.
This adaptability makes youresilient to all these political
changes.
You have never seen this.
You have a steady, smoothlifestyle.
That's makes it difficult foryou to adjust.
It's like you're driving on afantastically paved highway.
(01:01:14):
And then you have this one patch- a mile long patch, which is
really rough and, you know, fullof potholes and things like
that.
When you have a smooth highway,you drive like 60, 70 miles an
hour.
And suddenly you jump into thispothole ridden patch and the car
(01:01:37):
starts flying all over the road,you know, jumping all over the
road and you have zero controlof the car.
It's something like that.
All your life, you have beendriving on this high-speed, you
know, no obstacle road andsuddenly it's a different kind
of road that you have.
You are not prepared tonavigate.
(01:01:59):
That's what makes itfrightening.
Again, if I go for the caranalogy, the cars are made to
withstand potholes.
You don't know how much strengthis in your car because you have
never put it to the t est.
Kelley Lynch (01:02:15):
So that's like the that's an interesting point.
Actually.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:02:20):
You're democratic,--all the
institutions which uphold thedemocracy, you have never put
them to the test.
Kelley Lynch (01:02:26):
Probably the civil war.
But I mean, we've changed a lotsince then.
So would you say that what youhave learned from your
experience would then beentirely different, do you think
from, from ours?
I mean, because you're comingfrom a different kind of country
(01:02:47):
with a newer democracy.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:02:48):
But in the end, you're dealing with
people.
People all over the world arethe same.
They may look different.
They may feel different, but thebasic human qualities are the
same.
So I am banking on that basichuman quality.
(01:03:11):
And with 200 years of smoothdriving, you may have become a
bit soft, but deep down inside,you still getting those basic
human qualities.
So I'm not worried for you.
You will have a rough patch likethe COVID itself.
(01:03:34):
Like Cindy was saying that shemisses history.
Now she has seen historyfirsthand.
This would be something thatwould be similar.
You'd see what we go through dayin, day out in the so-called
third world countries.
In the'80s, early 80's, theelected president was murdered
(01:04:00):
and the interim government, likethe democratized system, the
interim government tookover.
But at one point, the army chieftook over the power and he was
the dictator who ran the countryfor 10 years.
(01:04:23):
And after 10 years people hadenough of his corruption and
basically lack of democracy inthe system that they thought
enough is enough.
And so there was like a regularunrest for three months, huge
(01:04:46):
unrest.
And one day suddenly everybodycame out to the streets.
They were not protesting.
They just came out to thestreets.
And there were military withmachine guns.
And the vehicles patrolling thestreets and they could not move
(01:05:11):
because literally the wholestreet was packed with people
who did not about the bullets orthe machine guns or the
military.
They just stood there.
Non-violent they were notthreatening anybody.
And you know, at that point, themilitary gave up.
(01:05:36):
You know, it was likeoverwhelming.
So they joined the people andthey forced Ershad to resign.
Every situation is like a dominoeffect.
Once one thing falls, it startsa chain reaction and things
changed rapidly.
Like within 24 hours, everythingchanged and Ershad was gone.
(01:06:02):
Such is the power of people.
Kelley Lynch (01:06:06):
So, any last parting words of wisdom that you
have before?
I mean, because it's possible.
I mean, I'm sure I'll talk toyou on election day or election
night, but any parting wordsbefore we head down this last
track to the election?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:06:28):
This is going to be a long road.
So brace yourself for that.
Don't think that with all thesystem, this is going to end
soon.
Healing will take such a longtime.
It's so easy to break a system,but to rebuild a system takes so
(01:06:49):
much effort, so much time and somuch strength.
So the only thing that I hopeand pray for you as a nation,
that you have that strength andthat you have that perseverance
to withstand that long struggleahead.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:13):
Thank you.
All right.
Talk to you soon.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:07:17):
Take care.
Bye.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:19):
Bye.
We're so glad you're still here.
I know this was a really longepisode, but I hope you found it
useful, but just wanted toremind you that we've got our
website, a new normalpodcast.com.
(01:07:43):
That's where you can subscribeto the podcast and to our
newsletter, you can readreviews, you can leave reviews
and we would love for you to dothat.
You can also find moreinformation about us and get in
touch in the coming weeks.
We're going to be featuringpeople who are being the change
in their own communities.
(01:08:04):
And we've already got a few ofthose people lined up, but we
would love to hear from you.
If you've got a good story,please click on contact and get
in touch.
We're not quite sure what'shappening next week.
I think most of America is notquite sure what's happening next
week.
We will be back, be sure andvote and take good care.
(01:08:27):
See you later.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.