July 1, 2020 • 53 mins
For many of the world's 1.2 billion children who are out of school due to the pandemic, continuing their education is not a matter of how or even when—but if. Kelley talks with Education Specialist Alberto Begue about the impact the crisis is having on students, families, schools and governments in developing countries and the opportunities it may provide to modernize education.
Find more about Alberto and his work here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alberto-begue-37465a7/
To see some of my work as a photographer/storyteller documenting education in developing countries follow these links:
http://www.kelleyslynch.com/education
http://www.kelleyslynch.com/publications
And if you want to see pictures related to this story, check out our Instagram feed:
https://www.instagram.com/anewnormalpodcast/
The theme music is Fragilistic by Ketsa
licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelley Lynch (00:01):
I want to introduce you to a good friend
of mine.
Hi Gemma.
How are you?
Gemma (00:10):
I'm good.
Kelley Lynch (00:10):
Gemma is six.
And like most students in theUS, the last part of her school
year was spent at home learningonline.
Can you tell me what it was likewhen you were doing your
schooling on the computer?
Gemma (00:27):
It was boring.
Kelley Lynch (00:30):
Yeah, why was it boring?
Gemma (00:40):
It was all online and there was nothing different
going on.
Kelley Lynch (00:41):
What do you mean by nothing different going on?
Gemma (00:41):
Like, the same presentations all the time.
It's a Zoom classroom, kind of.
Kelley Lynch (00:52):
So how many kids do you know?
Was it, was it like 10 kids or20 kids?
Gemma (00:59):
Probably like five or two.
Kelley Lynch (01:02):
Oh, so it was very few kids?
Gemma (01:04):
Yep.
Kelley Lynch (01:06):
And then the teacher would work with you and
those kids?
Gemma (01:13):
Yes.
She gave me assignments and Ihad to do it.
I took the paper or somethingand then showed it online.
Kelley Lynch (01:25):
Who's your homeschool teacher in a way?
Gemma (01:48):
Well, both of them, actually.
Kelley Lynch (01:48):
Your mom and your dad?
Gemma (01:48):
Yes.
Dad gives mom a break and helikes to build stuff with us.
So I started learning aboutbirds because when we made a
bird house, it startedinteresting me about birds.
Kelley Lynch (01:59):
That's very cool.
And then is your mom the personwho manages the online learning
part?
Gemma (02:06):
Yes, because Daddy is working at that time.
Kelley Lynch (02:12):
And how is she as a teacher?
Gemma (02:13):
A bit boring.
Kelley Lynch (02:18):
She's boring.
Is she?
Why is she so boring.
Gemma (02:28):
Because she doesn't let us choose our own work.
I cried one day at lunch becausethere was too much online time
so Mama said that I could do notso much online time.
Kelley Lynch (02:42):
When you think back about when you were in
school before, what is it thatyou miss?
Gemma (02:49):
I miss working it actually me doing the work.
Kelley Lynch (03:00):
And what about being at home and not going to
school and not seeing yourfriends?
How do you feel about that?
Gemma (03:08):
A bit sad.
Kelley Lynch (03:14):
And so what if you had to do that again next year?
What do you think about that?
Gemma (03:19):
I think that I would not like to do it.
Kelley Lynch (03:38):
Hi, I'm Kelly Lynch.
Welcome to A New Normal, apodcast about how we're adapting
to the pandemic and where we gofrom here.
My guest today is the AlbertoBegue.
Alberto is an educationspecialist.
He's been working withgovernments, NGOs, and UN
agencies worldwide for the past17 years.
(04:01):
In the wake of the pandemic,we've heard plenty of stories
about children like Gemma andtheir families as they've
struggled with the move toonline learning.
I wanted to talk to Albertoabout those other children.
The children we don't hear aboutwho are struggling without
education.
Alberto, welcome to the podcast.
Alberto Begue (04:21):
Thank you.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Kelley Lynch (04:24):
Let's just start by getting an overview of what's
going on with education indeveloping countries as a result
of the covert crisis.
Alberto Begue (04:35):
Yes.
So, in what we call the globalSouth and usually in our field
globally, some 65% of schoolsare closed.
This is 1.2 billion children,worldwide.
Most of the countries, they shutdown completely, even in
countries with not many cases ofCOVID as a preventative measure.
A bit copying whatindustrialized countries, if I
(04:58):
can say Europe, the U S Canada,we're doing, but with very
different conditions.
And so they are suffering morethe consequences of having kids
at home.
Kelley Lynch (05:09):
What is that situation look like for a child
in Niger or Mali?
Alberto Begue (05:16):
It's a measure.
For instance, we have 60, 70% ofthe population living in rural
areas.
Even without a virus, many ofthese kids are not going to
school.
We have maybe let's say 30% ofkids aren't going to primary
education.
50, 60% of kids are not going tosecondary education.
Now all of them are at home andwe are talking in areas where
(05:40):
maybe 10% of the population hasaccess to the internet.
Where families don't have alaptop.
They don't have a tablet.
Smart phones often are verycommon, even in rural areas.
Even illiterate people more andmore, they have smart phones,
but even parents they areilliterate in most cases.
And so it's impossible to reallyhave the parents helping the
(06:02):
kids on distance learning.
But it's not only that, we haveteachers that are very poorly
trained.
This teacher's already face toface they are struggling a lot
to teach kids, for instance, howto read and write in the first
grades.
Imagine now, how can you teachhow to read and write online?
(06:24):
It's literally impossible.
Even here.
My child is five and we arethinking, okay, what if there is
no school next year?
But we could do it at home.
These people they're illiterate.
Most of them, they have five,six, seven kids at home.
This distance learning is reallynot going to happen.
These kids are going to be athome, playing in the yard,
(06:44):
playing in the village, but theywill not get any education.
And not only education, theywill not get the food that in
many cases, if they are lucky,they were getting in school.
They will not be getting healthcheckups that they were getting
when they were in school, allthese issues are affecting not
only education, but the entirelife of children and youth in
(07:06):
for instance, in Niger, but inmany of the countries,
Kelley Lynch (07:10):
If we step back, I mean, I know that education in
the global South has undergone alot of change over the last 10
years and more.
We've seen a lot of changes interms of the numbers of children
who are out of school and interms of quality.
And I've been part ofdocumenting some of that.
(07:31):
And I know that you've lookedinto all of this in a much
deeper way.
Could you just take us back 10,15 years and talk about those
gains that have been made overthat period of time?
Alberto Begue (07:44):
National governments and international
agencies, what we call donorshave been investing technical
expertise, resources to giveeducation a priority.
So we have seen a lot of goodprogress I would say in terms of
enrollment, especially onprimary education.
Also, we have more kids, notonly starting, but finishing
(08:05):
school.
Many more millions aretransitioning to secondary
school because nowadays in mostcountries, if you want to get a
job, if you want to continuestudying, y ou n eed secondary
or vocational training.
I cannot say that we aresatisfied with the quality of
education in many countries, butwe saw also some improvements.
(08:25):
A lot of teacher training wasdone.
Most governments, they arestrengthening a lot their
systems.
I m ean, really improvements were there.
And now the situation w ill gobackwards.
Kelley Lynch (08:37):
So for example, I know one of the big things that
people have been working on inpast years has been girls
education.
When you think about girls notbeing in school, what are the
consequences for those children?
Alberto Begue (08:52):
For economic reasons, cultural reasons,
religious reasons for decades,many girls, weren't going to
school.
Let's imagine the most radicalexample, Afghanistan under the
Taliban, for instance.
Zero girls were going to school.
Zero.
It was prohibited.
But in Africa, for instance, insubSaharan Africa, we have many
(09:13):
countries where for economicreasons, girls don't go to
school because since they are,maybe they start school, they go
to first grade, second grade,third grade.
Then they have an age where theycan help at home.
They can go to fetch water.
They can take care of theirsiblings, but they are suffering
child labor.
They are suffering gender basedviolence even more when they are
(09:35):
not in school.
I started working in education17 years ago.
You had countries where maybefor each hundred boys, you had
60 girls going to school.
In many countries nowadays, inthe first four or five years of
primary education, more or less,you have the same amount of boys
and girls.
But also because of earlypregnancy, early marriage, you
(09:57):
have girls that when they are14, 15, they will go out of
school.
But the thing is how the currentsituation will affect even more
of these girls.
These girls were in school.
Now everybody's at home.
When governments decide toreopen the schools, how many
(10:17):
girls will not come back.
They will be taking care of sickrelatives for instance, or
children at home.
They will take the burden ofthese consequences.
Kelley Lynch (10:30):
In Niger when I was there, one of the stories
that we did was about girls andthe impact of being in school,
on pregnancy rates.
The average woman was havingwhat seven or eight children
throughout her life.
(10:50):
And when a girl stays in school,that actually has an impact on
the number of children that shehas because she gets married
later.
So she starts having childrenlater.
So not only is that a bigimprovement for her own health
because early marriage, earlypregnancy is very dangerous for
(11:11):
girls.
There's also that impact on thepopulation.
And particularly in the contextof Niger, where you've got 12%
arable land.
You've got a huge populationthat's reliant on that.
You've got so many young peopleout of work already, no jobs.
I mean, these are real worldreasons to have girls be in
(11:33):
school.
Alberto Begue (11:34):
So the benefits of having girls in school is
well documented.
And not only as you mentioned,not only individually for the
girl, the particular girl thatis in school, but for the entire
country, for the entire societyfor, I would say, for the world.
We have studies at the worldbank on how the GDP, the gross
domestic product is increasingdramatically when girls in
(11:58):
particular, I mean when anychild is going to school, but in
particular when girls are goingto school and also in terms of
health as you mentioned for theyoung woman, for the children,
she has children as well interms of the use of family
control methods, For instance,that in Niger is an issue as you
(12:19):
mentioned, they have thefertility rate and the highest
in the world.
And it's really dramatic in acountry that is suffering
climate change.
That is an issue that is linkedto everything we are saying.
How climate change is affectingthings is that it's reducing the
land that can be used, the waterthat can be used in the country
and how this is, for instance,now terrorism in the area i s
(12:42):
also affected by t his lack ofresources.
People that were historicallyfarmers, people that have
livestock and t hey a re nomads,for instance, they don't have
anywhere to go now.
And so this is affectingdramatically, the life of these
people.
Going back to the situation thatwe are facing now, we have been
(13:06):
struggling to convince parentsof the good for the girl, for
the family, of having the girlsin t he school.
How the prosperity of the entirefamily, t he entire community
will benefit from sending girlsto school.
How do we use t hese argumentnow when boys and girls are at
home?
(13:26):
When they cannot continuedistance learning for a l ong t
ime time, probably for let's saymany months?
And we see now that covid isgoing down in many countries
like in Europe, for instance, Wedon't see the same here.
It's the opposite in Africa andLatin America in Southeast Asia,
for instance.
So it's going to be many monthsthat these girls are going to be
(13:48):
at home, as I mentioned, takingcare of relatives and also often
working.
They will be able to go to workon the informal economy.
So by the time they reopen theschools, many of these girls,
especially young women, theywill never go back.
This is not only a theoreticalperspective, it happened with
the Ebola crisis in 2014, 2016in West Africa where Guinea,
(14:11):
Sierra Leone, and Liberia wereaffected a lot by Ebola and they
shut down all the schools formore than a year.
And there were thousands a ndthousands of girls that were not
going to school, I was readingthe other day, a report by the M
alala foundation and t hey wereestimating that t aken in
consideration, the rates ofgirls that didn't go to school
(14:31):
in Sierra Leone, after Ebola upto 10 million girls will not go
back to school after thecoronavirus crisis.
Ten Million girls, more.
Considering that we have alreadynow, I mentioned, these 59
million.
Maybe 30 to 40 million.
are girls.
(14:52):
We have 10 more million girls will n ot go to school because of
that.
And as you mentioned, these willhave consequences in if they
don't g o to school, thelikelihood for them to be
married, even if they are 13, 14years old, even if it's illegal
in their countries to getmarried, t hey w ill get
married.
They will get pregnant.
They will be abused.
(15:14):
So iit's a really a viciouscircle and we need to break this
vicious circle and education isa good w ay t o d o i t.
Kelley Lynch (15:30):
On that note.
How are countries generally atthe moment thinking about this
crisis?
Alberto Begue (15:38):
So, we have here a geographical issue is that in
Northern hemisphere countries,usually the school year is
ending now.
Meaning that these kids, theylost, let's say three months of
school, four months of school insome cases.
So, in some cases they aretrying to catch up and they are
saying, okay, sorry guys, theschools were closed because of
(16:01):
the virus.
In September, we'll resume andwe will do our best to catch up
or to start earlier.
My child i s s tarting a m onthearlier than usual, for
instance.
The problem is in countries,like for instance, I was talking
to a friend in Argentina wherethey s tarted the school year in
February and they shut down thes chools in March.
Meaning that they kind of say,Oh, forget about t he entire
(16:24):
year, because it's nine months,10 months ahead of them.
O r t he s chools most likely will be closed.
But they kind of just say, Oh,forget about this year.
They need to do somethingbecause if not, they will not be
able to catch up because theywill lose an entire year.
And this can be dramatic,especially for instance, with
(16:45):
secondary education.
These kids are planning alreadytheir future to find a job to go
to university.
So it's a really dramaticsituation where it depends a lot
on the preparation ofministries.
Some countries, they had crisisregarding crisis in the past,
and they are more prepared.
(17:05):
It was not coronavirus becausethis is new, but it was
earthquakes or other naturaldisasters or war conflicts,
ethnic conflict.
And so for instance, in SierraLeone, before the Ebola, they
didn't have any plan on how tosupport students, teachers,
parents, in case of anemergency.
(17:26):
I did a study there in 2016 andI was analyzing the response
that they had to the Ebolacrisis.
And then in 2017, I came back toanalyze the new education sector
plan.
And I was surprised to see thatthey had added a full section in
(17:48):
terms of how to respond in caseof emergency.
That can be Ebola, can be a newconflict, can be a natural
disaster.
It is not exactly the same, theresponse, but at least you can
prepare in case that you have acrisis.
For instance, in Sierra Leone,they cannot count much on the
(18:08):
internet because not many peoplehave access, but they do own TV
and radio.
I would say, I don't know ifmost, but many people, they have
TV and even more, they haveradio.
It's very common for them, evena smartphone.
So you can adapt the contents ofthe curriculum for instance, to
these different media.
But you have to do it inadvance.
(18:28):
The problem now is thatgovernments are running to
respond with no time becausekids are really at home.
Teachers are already at home.
You cannot put them together totrain them.
You need to train them online aswell.
Nobody was prepared for that.
And they have paper.
They have all t he m aterials,but you don't have this in
(18:50):
digital format.
So the teacher w ill need toscan.
if they're lucky to have ascanner at home, they will need
to scan what they have on paperto be able to send it by email,
in case the family has an email.
So it's really technologicallyfeasible, but it's very
difficult to do it.
(19:11):
Sometimes teachers, also foreconomic reasons, if he's not
paid, for instance, we have alot of community t eachers, men
and women that are from thevillage and my community, we pay
an incentive.
He or she will be teaching mykids.
Probably my community will notbe able to pay anymore during
(19:32):
this crisis.
The thing is that even when theschool reopens, teachers will
not be available because he orshe has to go somewhere else to
make a living.
So there are economicimplications of the crisis that
are affecting also theavailability of teachers.
And we saw this with the Ebolacrisis.
We see these in South Sudan witha conflict with the war.
(19:54):
In Haiti, I remember after theearthquake in 2010, many
teachers were not paid by theministry.
And they started working inagriculture in the North of the
country, or they went back tothe village to work at the farm
of a relative and they willnever come back to the school.
In this case, private schoolswill suffer even more.
(20:15):
And I remember after, forinstance in Haiti, after the
earthquake, many private schoolsdid not survive.
They were shutting down becausethey were sometimes affected
directly.
The school was down because ofthe earthquake and they didn't
have the money to renovate it orrebuild it.
And we're talking worldwidedozens of millions of kids that
(20:38):
will not be able to come back.
And the public schools will notbe able to absorb many of these
children.
Or in the best situation wheresome schools can accommodate
more kids, this will haveconsequences on quality because
now we have already 50, 60, 70kids with one teacher in the
classroom.
If you accommodate even morekids, let's say to a hundred
(21:01):
kids.
The quality will go down.
A nd we have already thesituation before COVID one
teacher with a hundred students.
And I mean, it's impossible.
Kelley Lynch (21:10):
Or in Tanzania I saw 256 students in one
classroom.
I mean, there was no room forthe teacher to even stand.
Alberto Begue (21:23):
Yeah, they can go to school, but what are they
learning?
The good thing is that somecountries will learn the hard
way that they need to plan forthe future and for future
crises.
This is very important.
And I think it's a very strongmessage to governments.
As they say sometimes, if youwant peace, prepare for war.
(21:45):
It is not when the war startsthat you suddenly begin to think
about what to do.
Kelley Lynch (22:00):
I wondered it's kind of an unsavory question,
but I think given what's kind ofgoing on in America at this time
and perhaps even for other donorcountries as well.
I can imagine that there are alot of people who say, well,
(22:24):
look, we've really got to takeour own resources, focus on
ourselves and you guys just needto figure it out and we've got
to focus our resources overhere, where we are.
What are the consequences ofthat kind of thinking if you did
(22:45):
act on that?
Alberto Begue (22:46):
I think the situation where 40 million
unemployed people here in theUS, people would say, okay,
let's shut down USAID and let'stake all the resources for us-
for the Americans.
It's like, no, this is not theanswer in the case of education.
The main problem of thinkingthat,"Oh, who cares about the
(23:07):
education of children inAfghanistan is that when the
Taliban arrived in Afghanistan,for instance, one of the issues
is that you had a big proportionof adults that were illiterate
and didn't have the intellectualtools to fight against such a
(23:30):
radical way of seeing life.
That, for instance, were sendinggirls home, prohibiting women to
be nurses, to be doctors, todrive.
And we see the consequences thatthis had for the entire planet,
not only for Afghanistan.
And we had 9-11 and we had thewar in Afghanistan, the war in
(23:54):
Pakistan.
Pakistan is a nuclear power.
India, their neighbor is anuclear power.
This could be a very longconversation, but in the sense
that we are all linked nowadays,and the fact of not educating
people will have consequences,first for the country, but in
(24:15):
the medium term, not even thelong term, will have
consequences for the neighborsand I would say for everybody.
And I would say a very importantpoint is economically even with
a selfish position, we haveinterests for other countries to
be more educated because theywill be more developed.
(24:36):
They will consume more.
Even in this perspective thatfrom I prefer, a human rights
approach, of course.
But for these kinds of peoplethat maybe the human r ights
approach is not good enough,let's use a more economic
approach in the sense of saying,if t hese countries don't
(24:57):
consume, they will not buy ourproducts.
And the US companies are sellinga lot abroad and the more
educated are people, the bettereconomy they will have.
The better they will be able toparticipate socially,
politically, culturally.
The more stable they will be.
And t hese h ave consequences interms of peace and peace is for
(25:20):
everybody.
So really education is the firststage for a b etter society
everywhere and this is good foreverybody.
Kelley Lynch (25:42):
Are there new ideas and new possibilities that
might come out of this pandemic?
Is there kind of a, somethinglike a new normal that we could
be looking to find a new newmeans of educating people in the
global South?
Alberto Begue (26:03):
I don't like much this expression of back to
normal because normal in manycountries means suffering for
many people.
So we use an expression that is"Build back better" in the sense
of, okay, we need to rebuild theeducational systems.
Let's do it better.
Let's make sure, as I mentioned,for instance without repeating
(26:24):
this idea of having bettereducation sector plans, where
crises are already considered inadvance.
Where for instance, we haveteachers that are well trained
in distance learning.
Even when they reopened theschools, you can already at the
same time train teachers for thescenario where you need to shut
(26:46):
down schools again.
That most likely is going tohappen for different reasons.
It can be a second outbreak ofthe coronavirus.
Can be a new Ebola as we arehaving now in Congo, for
instance, for several monthsalready.
Can be a new conflict.
Can be an earthquake.
(27:07):
There are many situations whereit would be good to have many of
your teachers trained to dodistant learning.
Also, schools can be a very goodplace to teach kids about things
that are affecting the entiresociety, not only themselves,
for instance, health issues,hygiene issues.
(27:28):
They can be a very good way ofpassing messages to the
community in terms of theimportance of washing their
hands.
That is something core to reducemortality, for instance, infant
mortality, for instance.
To talk about vaccines.
To educate the community thatvaccines are important, for
(27:48):
instance.
Nutrition issues, kids, they canlearn about nutrition issues,
and they will take thesemessages to the mother that is
cooking at home.
So we have different ways ofworking better when schools are
reopening.
One of the most important thingsis to make sure that outbreaks
(28:12):
are not happening in schools.
That was one of the issues withEbola was to make sure that at
least in the school case, we'resafe.
Maybe when they were going home,they were not so safe, but at
least to make sure that hundredpercent of kids are safe.
And I know it's not easy withcoronavirus because the social
(28:33):
distancing with kids doesn'twork.
I mean, there is no way to havekids six, seven, eight years old
to say, Oh, six feet apart.
You cannot touch each other evenif you didn't see your best
friend in three months.
I mean, that's impossible.
But, here in the US as well, Isee these CDC guidelines, school
(28:53):
guidelines, w here experts, they are t hinking, y ou k now
how to do this in a better way.
The thing is that many of thesecountries in the global South,
they will need technical supportto be able to develop good
strategies and to enforce themover time.
Not only at the very beginning,when everybody's scared about
(29:13):
the virus, but later whenhopefully the virus is gone, or
we have a vaccine, we need tokeep these protocols in place
for-ever, I would say.
Kelley Lynch (29:23):
Forever?
Alberto Begue (29:24):
Forever, because we'll have crises, different
crises.
Not forever for the coronavirus,but in many countries and even
in a rich countries, we need tobe prepared to have another
(29:46):
different pandemic or to have adifferent conflict.
I mean, we had the Katrinanatural disaster in the South,
in the US.
I mean, it's not so far and weneed to be prepared to respond.
Kelley Lynch (29:59):
And with the changing climate, we have much
more likelihood of these kindsof things happening.
Alberto Begue (30:04):
Yeah.
It's not if, it's when.
Kelley Lynch (30:06):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Alberto Begue (30:10):
All of us, again, we cannot say climate change is
only for Bangladesh.
No, no, no, no.
It's for us, it's for everybody.
Kelley Lynch (30:29):
So I know the education in emergencies is one
component of"Building backbetter." Is there anything else
that you see in terms of maybe,maybe it's learning platforms,
maybe it's using televisionradio smartphones, what are you
(30:51):
guys looking at in terms of howto get kids learning again?
I mean, if you can't be inschool and particularly if you
have 250 some odd children inyour classroom, there's no way
you can.
I mean, these kids are alreadyon shifts, so you've got a group
in the morning.
You've got a group in theafternoon and you have no space.
(31:12):
Education budgets are stretchedalready.
So what are people thinking interms of practical ways over the
next, even if it's just to sayover the next year or 18 months,
to educate these children, or tomake sure that there are fewer
(31:37):
impacted than the worst casescenarios?
Alberto Begue (31:42):
There are different ways to approach that,
but I'm going to mention onethat I have been working a bit
on it on how to try to planthat.
It's to talk about distancelearning, but considering that
many kids cannot be online.
Meaning that you need to havewhat we call offline distance
learning.
Meaning that we need to makesure that kids, especially
(32:08):
youth, that don't have access tothe internet, they can still
download to the smart phones,for instance, that are really
spread worldwide.
And you can see that youth, forinstance, i n Niger, they have a
smartphone, even in rural areas.
And so, I know some experiencesfor instance, some countries
where they have been doing,places, sometimes t he school,
(32:33):
but can be a center of thecommunity for instance, where
they have a device that you canuse with Bluetooth to download
content.
And you take this content homeand you can be working on that
on your smartphone.
If you have a tablet orcomputer, of course, but you
don't need to be connected allthe time in order to be able to
(32:55):
access the content you need tolearn.
But you go, let's say once aweek with Bluetooth, you
download everything that yourteacher sent to you.
You can even communicate withyour teacher remotely, then you
go home and you can work.
So of course, if it's a smartphone, it's not the same as
having a bigger screen,obviously, but also the contents
(33:19):
are being adapted.
And so content to be taught bythe teacher in the classroom,
you have a way of writing atextbook.
It's different when you have todo a online class and it's
different when you need to use asmartphone.
But I found in Burkina Faso lastyear, for instance, talking to
(33:41):
our professor, that teacher, andshe said that she had no idea
how to use a computer.
She never used a computer, butwhen I mentioned the smartphone,
she said, Oh, yes, I'm onFacebook and I'm familiar with,
with the smartphone.
Okay, let's create content sothis teacher can teach in the
case that she cannot be inschool, in the classroom that
(34:05):
she can teach the students, cancommunicate with students using
the smartphone.
But with the smartphones, thepossibilities are huge.
The thing that you need, again,you need to be prepared in
advance.
You cannot now in the midst ofthe crisis, when everybody's at
home to tell teachers to betrained online, to be able to
(34:26):
teach online.
There is no way.
This cannot work.
Some countries are trying, butthis cannot work.
We need to be prepared inadvance and really consider that
this is a priority.
Even at the end of this crisis,to be prepared for the next
crisis is a priority.
This implies a lot of resourcesand sometimes the ministry of
(34:48):
finance will say, Oh, sorry, Ihave no money for that.
Well, the consequence of nothaving money now is that in two
months, or in 10 years, you willhave another crisis and you will
suffer again.
And the economic cost of that,it's billions.
And so it's an economiccalculation that they have to do
as well.
(35:09):
And it's a global way ofthinking that must be there.
It's not each ministry decidingindividually.
It's something that we dounderstand as humankind that we
need to be prepared for thesekinds of crises.
Kelley Lynch (35:23):
Right?
Right.
And so, as a last question, ifsomebody kind of gave you the
Magic wand and they said, right,okay, You can Set some things,
(35:45):
right?
You can put some things on a newtrajectory.
What would you do?
Alberto Begue (35:51):
We need to make sure we have an education for
the 21st century.
We cannot continue, for instance, having education like you have
the teacher and the students infront of him or her listening
all the time.
As in many countries byrepetition, they are learning
how to read and write byrepetition in African countries.
(36:12):
Really I've been there workingfor more than 20 years and it's
painful to see teachers thatthey are repeating, repeating
things, kids, they are repeatingthings.
This is not a way of learning.
And this should be like a lessonlearned of saying, okay, we need
to rethink the way we teach.
We need to have a moreparticipatory approach.
(36:34):
And it's not just to have thisrigid curriculum where the
ministry is deciding that allkids have to learn exactly the
same thing.
And they need to learn exactlyall the same at the same pace.
We need to rethink this.
And we have already s ent, I mean, it's difficult to compare,
of course, but we have goodexamples like Finland, for
(36:56):
instance, or South Korea, wherethey h ave been rethinking
education with amazing results.
So we need to rethink, even inour rich countries, the way of
educating, but also in theglobal South where they have t
his 19th century education.
Kelley Lynch (37:18):
What do you mean by a 19th century education?
Alberto Begue (37:21):
Well, this image that we have of the classroom of
having a teacher that knowseverything, and we have the
students that they are listeningto the teacher as a God.
They cannot contradict theteacher.
They cannot interact with theteacher.
They cannot say, Oh, I learnedthis somewhere else.
No I didn't tell you to solvethis mathematical problem like
(37:44):
that.
You have to solve it the way Itaught you yesterday.
Kids at home, they can learnmore things than what the
teacher can give in one hour, intwo hours, in three hours, but
you need an open mind of theseteachers.
Really it is this hierarchy thatwe need to break and digital
(38:07):
platforms are a great thing forthat.
And a situation where theteacher is not in front of me is
forcing me to look in differentplaces for learning.
It can be the family.
It can be the internet.
It can be communicating withfriends.
Even illiterate parents, theysee the possibilities of having
(38:28):
t heir kids educated.
Opportunities that they didn'thave and the only option they
had was to stay in the village,b eing poor, working with a very
minimal income.
They see how education, notnecessarily, but can be an
option to break the circle ofpoverty and for kids to be able
(38:50):
to have a better job, toparticipate more socially,
culturally, politically.
Not to be so much influenced bypoliticians, by dictators, in
some countries.
And so that there are healthissues, for instance, they see
that educated people have betterhealth, less kids.
(39:10):
They d ecide the kids they want.
It's not that I'm saying to haveless k ids i s necessarily good,
but at least you decide the kidsyou want.
And if you are better educated,you can make these decisions.
Kelley Lynch (39:25):
Indeed.
Well, Alberto, thank you so muchfor your time and sharing what
you have with us.
Hi Cindy.
Hi Tanvir.
(39:47):
What did you think about whatAlberto had to say?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvi (39:56):
Basically, if you look at it, there are two
kinds of scenarios in ourcountry or in places like ours.
It's the survival of theeducation system or the students
themselves.
Whether they go back to schoolor they completely drop out of
school.
Whereas in your country, you areactually looking at how to
(40:21):
provide the service, like theeducation quality of education.
My mom has run a school for thelast 32 years.
This is a private school.
She started off as kind of asocial service, I would say.
(40:41):
She had about 200 to 300students.
Now with this corona situationhas put her in a place where she
is actually thinking whether shewill be able to maintain the
school or not.
Her income is from the tuitionfrom the students.
So since students are not comingto the school, they are not
(41:02):
paying the tuition.
She has managed three monthsfrom her own personal fund.
But if it looks like it is goingto linger, she doesn't have the
money to manage that.
If she decides to close it down,then what happens to these
students?
This situation is not actuallyunique to her.
(41:25):
We don't have an adequate numberof public schools and also the
quality of those public schools,90% of them, those public
schools are really miserable.
They don't have infrastructure.
They don't have proper teachingstaff.
To supplement that there are allthese private schools.
(41:46):
These are basic private schools,which actually manages to fill
the gap.
And if they are forced to shutdown, what happens to those
children who go to that school?
Because the public system cannotabsorb this huge number of
(42:06):
students, they're already in adifficult situation with the
existing number of students thatthey have.
If they have to take this extraburden, it's going to collapse.
So this is what I, when I saythis is more of a survival mode,
(42:26):
this is what I mean.
We will have see a huge numberof dropouts.
Kelley Lynch (42:33):
What happens to girls?
I mean, particularly becausegirls are much more
disadvantaged in countries likeBangladesh.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (42:43):
Girls are sort of the last to get in line.
When it's a choice betweensending your son and daughter to
school, if you have a difficultyor economic hardship, it will
always be the send the son tothe school.
Keep the girl at home.
So because of this coronavirussituation, if we have dropouts,
(43:08):
the majority would be the girlsand that will have so many knock
on effects.
If girls are educated, you havea better country.
And Alberto actually refer tothat.
Where we are as a country wherewe are now, the full credit goes
(43:30):
to the girls who came out of thehouse, started learning, started
educating and started earningand started contributing to the
society and to the family andeventually to the country.
That's the reality.
Cindy Sealls (43:48):
How is your mom going to move forward with her
school?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:54):
She's actually thinking of two plans.
One is short term.
One is long term.
For the longterm plan, we aresupporting her with getting a
loan or something like that,managing the funding.
And as a short term solution tothis problem, she is actually
(44:16):
using WhatsApp as anx educationplatform.
Cindy Sealls (44:21):
How does that work with WhatsApp?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (44:24):
See, we don't have huge level of
internet in the country, but wehave a mobile network and smart
phones are available in theremotest corner of the country.
So that created this opportunityof connecting students who went
(44:47):
back to the villages because thecity is locked down, but they
have a phone.
So using the WhatsApp, theteachers can send class lessons
and then have a groupdiscussion.
And that became a very goodsolution.
Kelley Lynch (45:07):
How is that going to change then this, I mean,
Alberto mentioned this 19thcentury education.
He also mentioned that it wasreally difficult to train
teachers to do this kind of verydifferent teaching whenever
they've never been doing this.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (45:25):
Actually, that was like one of the biggest
challenge.
So what we did, we actuallyphysically had to bring in some
of them to the school to showthem how to download the app and
how to create groups and thingslike that and how to upload and
download.
I would consider my mom as verylucky because I have in house
(45:51):
all the infrastructure, like thescanner, the proper software,
the computer.
So I'm the one who is actuallyconverting the regular teaching
materials for digital platform.
But most don't have access tothat.
Kelley Lynch (46:07):
And are students responding or not so much?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (46:12):
They're the ones who are actually not
driving the whole thing.
They call up the teachers tostart the class, or they're the
one who is pushing, you know,like, why are you late today?
Cindy Sealls (46:26):
You know what I just thought of?
You know, this whole move awayfrom the 19th century teaching
model, maybe.
I mean, this is how you think ofit.
You know, here's a thing that wecall a disaster there's COVID
but look at all thesepossibilities.
Cause I was just thinking, wow,okay.
So, because the students knowmore about this digital learning
(46:48):
than the teachers, then it'sgoing to have to force some of
the teachers to say, Hey kid, Iwant to set up this, but I don't
know how to do it.
Can you help me do it?
And then that brings about achange of mindset.
Kelley Lynch (47:00):
And so those are my stages, the power dynamic,
maybe in the classroom as itwere.
It makes me think of the thingthat you were describing about g
irls education and theempowerment of women.
It's a very similar dynamic,right?
It has meant a lot more equalityfor women and men.
(47:22):
And it's brought huge changeseconomically to Bangladesh.
I wonder what this actuallybring.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:30):
It's exactly.
That kind of parallel that ishappening.
Like when guards came out of thehouse, we had this economic
boom.
So now that students arechanging the parameters of
education or learning, I amhopeful that we really have a
(47:51):
different kind of learning andbetter learning in future.
Cindy, I know you work inschools.
So how are you planning tomanage the situation?
When students start coming backto school,
Cindy Sealls (48:12):
Our online learning seemed to go pretty
smoothly in the spring.
So it looks as though we'regoing to try to stay with that
as well as hopefully on campus.
So it's going to be a hybridmodel, we hope, and we're gonna
(48:34):
basically split the students.
You know, all this is up in theair, of course, but because you
can't according to DC, which iswhere our school is.
You can't have more than 10students in a classroom.
So that's limiting everybody,private schools, public schools.
(48:56):
So we're all going to have to goto this hybrid model.
Kelley Lynch (48:59):
But one of the other things that I felt like
surprised me was how many peopleyou said were really interested
in the school.
I mean, I think originally youwere really concerned that
parents are, might not want tobe putting my children into a
private school, but in factyou've found it's the opposite.
Cindy Sealls (49:19):
Yeah.
We've been pleasantly surprisedat how much interest we're
getting from people who kids arein public schools right now,
because for them, I guess theexperience that they had, you
know, after we all left schoolwas not very positive.
(49:39):
And so they are contacting us.
They're not just coming to usand saying, just because we know
you're a private school, we knowyou'll do a better job.
They want to know, okay, are youguys going to be this, this
online learning for your wholeschool year?
And we have to be honest withthem to say, Hey, we can only
(49:59):
have 10 students in a class at atime.
And so we're going to have to dosome online learning.
Where we live some of thesesmaller schools are going to
have the problem of your mom'sschool, where maybe they don't
have the kind of resources to beable to have half of their
cohort coming in and then have abig cleaning because you got to
(50:22):
hire the cleaning people tocome.
They'll probably going to beworking overtime because you're
going to have maybe two or threemajor cleanings a week.
I used to work for a smallschool and we could have, we
could only, if we couldn'tafford any maintenance people,
we could only afford thecleaning people.
They only came in every day fora couple of hours a day.
(50:43):
And you know, they like emptythe trash, mop the floor, but
they certainly couldn't do themajor cleaning that you're going
to need for this.
There's just no way.
We couldn't afford it as aschool.
We could not afford it.
So I don't know what's going tohappen to those schools.
And then like you said, allthose kids, they're not coming
to us because the parents can'tafford it.
They're going to go into thepublic school.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (51:04):
We have to come out with a creative
solution to all thesesituations.
And we are like pushed to theedge that we have to do.
It it's either do or die kind ofsituation.
That's the silver lining of thiscorona situation.
And for the education, I thinkthis is a great opportunity to
(51:26):
break free of the things thatdid not work and to start fresh.
Kelley Lynch (51:34):
Look at you adding all the positivity now?
That's twice in a row.
I love it.
All right.
Well on that note, thank youguys as always.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Cindy Sealls (51:53):
We know this was a really long episode and we're
really glad that you listened toall the way to the end.
We hope you found itinteresting.
And that you learned something.
Kelley Lynch (52:08):
This is online learning.
Cindy Sealls (52:08):
You're right.
Oh my goodness.
I didn't even think of that.
Kelley Lynch (52:12):
And it's not boring.
This is some pretty cool stuff.
If we do say so ourselves.
Cindy Sealls (52:19):
And we do say so ourselves and online learning is
awesome.
Not boring, online, learning forfree.
And remember you're saving theplanet when you subscribe.
Just want to throw that outthere.
Kelley Lynch (52:36):
The other thing is it, next week, I'm just taking a
break.
It's going to be one week.
We're not going to be here, butyou can go back and listen to
all those other episodes thatyou missed.
Then we'll be back the followingweek with the next step.
Speaker 5 (52:51):
Yeah.
So you're getting homework.
You're gonna listen to theseother things and you're gonna
say, okay, who would like thisone?
I think so.
And so would like that one andyou're going to share it with
them and you're going to say,make sure you subscribe after
you listen.
So there you go.
That's your homework.
Bye.
I want to introduce you to a good friend
of mine.
Hi Gemma.
How are you?
Gemma (00:10):
I'm good.
Kelley Lynch (00:10):
Gemma is six.
And like most students in theUS, the last part of her school
year was spent at home learningonline.
Can you tell me what it was likewhen you were doing your
schooling on the computer?
Gemma (00:27):
It was boring.
Kelley Lynch (00:30):
Yeah, why was it boring?
Gemma (00:40):
It was all online and there was nothing different
going on.
Kelley Lynch (00:41):
What do you mean by nothing different going on?
Gemma (00:41):
Like, the same presentations all the time.
It's a Zoom classroom, kind of.
Kelley Lynch (00:52):
So how many kids do you know?
Was it, was it like 10 kids or20 kids?
Gemma (00:59):
Probably like five or two.
Kelley Lynch (01:02):
Oh, so it was very few kids?
Gemma (01:04):
Yep.
Kelley Lynch (01:06):
And then the teacher would work with you and
those kids?
Gemma (01:13):
Yes.
She gave me assignments and Ihad to do it.
I took the paper or somethingand then showed it online.
Kelley Lynch (01:25):
Who's your homeschool teacher in a way?
Gemma (01:48):
Well, both of them, actually.
Kelley Lynch (01:48):
Your mom and your dad?
Gemma (01:48):
Yes.
Dad gives mom a break and helikes to build stuff with us.
So I started learning aboutbirds because when we made a
bird house, it startedinteresting me about birds.
Kelley Lynch (01:59):
That's very cool.
And then is your mom the personwho manages the online learning
part?
Gemma (02:06):
Yes, because Daddy is working at that time.
Kelley Lynch (02:12):
And how is she as a teacher?
Gemma (02:13):
A bit boring.
Kelley Lynch (02:18):
She's boring.
Is she?
Why is she so boring.
Gemma (02:28):
Because she doesn't let us choose our own work.
I cried one day at lunch becausethere was too much online time
so Mama said that I could do notso much online time.
Kelley Lynch (02:42):
When you think back about when you were in
school before, what is it thatyou miss?
Gemma (02:49):
I miss working it actually me doing the work.
Kelley Lynch (03:00):
And what about being at home and not going to
school and not seeing yourfriends?
How do you feel about that?
Gemma (03:08):
A bit sad.
Kelley Lynch (03:14):
And so what if you had to do that again next year?
What do you think about that?
Gemma (03:19):
I think that I would not like to do it.
Kelley Lynch (03:38):
Hi, I'm Kelly Lynch.
Welcome to A New Normal, apodcast about how we're adapting
to the pandemic and where we gofrom here.
My guest today is the AlbertoBegue.
Alberto is an educationspecialist.
He's been working withgovernments, NGOs, and UN
agencies worldwide for the past17 years.
(04:01):
In the wake of the pandemic,we've heard plenty of stories
about children like Gemma andtheir families as they've
struggled with the move toonline learning.
I wanted to talk to Albertoabout those other children.
The children we don't hear aboutwho are struggling without
education.
Alberto, welcome to the podcast.
Alberto Begue (04:21):
Thank you.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Kelley Lynch (04:24):
Let's just start by getting an overview of what's
going on with education indeveloping countries as a result
of the covert crisis.
Alberto Begue (04:35):
Yes.
So, in what we call the globalSouth and usually in our field
globally, some 65% of schoolsare closed.
This is 1.2 billion children,worldwide.
Most of the countries, they shutdown completely, even in
countries with not many cases ofCOVID as a preventative measure.
A bit copying whatindustrialized countries, if I
(04:58):
can say Europe, the U S Canada,we're doing, but with very
different conditions.
And so they are suffering morethe consequences of having kids
at home.
Kelley Lynch (05:09):
What is that situation look like for a child
in Niger or Mali?
Alberto Begue (05:16):
It's a measure.
For instance, we have 60, 70% ofthe population living in rural
areas.
Even without a virus, many ofthese kids are not going to
school.
We have maybe let's say 30% ofkids aren't going to primary
education.
50, 60% of kids are not going tosecondary education.
Now all of them are at home andwe are talking in areas where
(05:40):
maybe 10% of the population hasaccess to the internet.
Where families don't have alaptop.
They don't have a tablet.
Smart phones often are verycommon, even in rural areas.
Even illiterate people more andmore, they have smart phones,
but even parents they areilliterate in most cases.
And so it's impossible to reallyhave the parents helping the
(06:02):
kids on distance learning.
But it's not only that, we haveteachers that are very poorly
trained.
This teacher's already face toface they are struggling a lot
to teach kids, for instance, howto read and write in the first
grades.
Imagine now, how can you teachhow to read and write online?
(06:24):
It's literally impossible.
Even here.
My child is five and we arethinking, okay, what if there is
no school next year?
But we could do it at home.
These people they're illiterate.
Most of them, they have five,six, seven kids at home.
This distance learning is reallynot going to happen.
These kids are going to be athome, playing in the yard,
(06:44):
playing in the village, but theywill not get any education.
And not only education, theywill not get the food that in
many cases, if they are lucky,they were getting in school.
They will not be getting healthcheckups that they were getting
when they were in school, allthese issues are affecting not
only education, but the entirelife of children and youth in
(07:06):
for instance, in Niger, but inmany of the countries,
Kelley Lynch (07:10):
If we step back, I mean, I know that education in
the global South has undergone alot of change over the last 10
years and more.
We've seen a lot of changes interms of the numbers of children
who are out of school and interms of quality.
And I've been part ofdocumenting some of that.
(07:31):
And I know that you've lookedinto all of this in a much
deeper way.
Could you just take us back 10,15 years and talk about those
gains that have been made overthat period of time?
Alberto Begue (07:44):
National governments and international
agencies, what we call donorshave been investing technical
expertise, resources to giveeducation a priority.
So we have seen a lot of goodprogress I would say in terms of
enrollment, especially onprimary education.
Also, we have more kids, notonly starting, but finishing
(08:05):
school.
Many more millions aretransitioning to secondary
school because nowadays in mostcountries, if you want to get a
job, if you want to continuestudying, y ou n eed secondary
or vocational training.
I cannot say that we aresatisfied with the quality of
education in many countries, butwe saw also some improvements.
(08:25):
A lot of teacher training wasdone.
Most governments, they arestrengthening a lot their
systems.
I m ean, really improvements were there.
And now the situation w ill gobackwards.
Kelley Lynch (08:37):
So for example, I know one of the big things that
people have been working on inpast years has been girls
education.
When you think about girls notbeing in school, what are the
consequences for those children?
Alberto Begue (08:52):
For economic reasons, cultural reasons,
religious reasons for decades,many girls, weren't going to
school.
Let's imagine the most radicalexample, Afghanistan under the
Taliban, for instance.
Zero girls were going to school.
Zero.
It was prohibited.
But in Africa, for instance, insubSaharan Africa, we have many
(09:13):
countries where for economicreasons, girls don't go to
school because since they are,maybe they start school, they go
to first grade, second grade,third grade.
Then they have an age where theycan help at home.
They can go to fetch water.
They can take care of theirsiblings, but they are suffering
child labor.
They are suffering gender basedviolence even more when they are
(09:35):
not in school.
I started working in education17 years ago.
You had countries where maybefor each hundred boys, you had
60 girls going to school.
In many countries nowadays, inthe first four or five years of
primary education, more or less,you have the same amount of boys
and girls.
But also because of earlypregnancy, early marriage, you
(09:57):
have girls that when they are14, 15, they will go out of
school.
But the thing is how the currentsituation will affect even more
of these girls.
These girls were in school.
Now everybody's at home.
When governments decide toreopen the schools, how many
(10:17):
girls will not come back.
They will be taking care of sickrelatives for instance, or
children at home.
They will take the burden ofthese consequences.
Kelley Lynch (10:30):
In Niger when I was there, one of the stories
that we did was about girls andthe impact of being in school,
on pregnancy rates.
The average woman was havingwhat seven or eight children
throughout her life.
(10:50):
And when a girl stays in school,that actually has an impact on
the number of children that shehas because she gets married
later.
So she starts having childrenlater.
So not only is that a bigimprovement for her own health
because early marriage, earlypregnancy is very dangerous for
(11:11):
girls.
There's also that impact on thepopulation.
And particularly in the contextof Niger, where you've got 12%
arable land.
You've got a huge populationthat's reliant on that.
You've got so many young peopleout of work already, no jobs.
I mean, these are real worldreasons to have girls be in
(11:33):
school.
Alberto Begue (11:34):
So the benefits of having girls in school is
well documented.
And not only as you mentioned,not only individually for the
girl, the particular girl thatis in school, but for the entire
country, for the entire societyfor, I would say, for the world.
We have studies at the worldbank on how the GDP, the gross
domestic product is increasingdramatically when girls in
(11:58):
particular, I mean when anychild is going to school, but in
particular when girls are goingto school and also in terms of
health as you mentioned for theyoung woman, for the children,
she has children as well interms of the use of family
control methods, For instance,that in Niger is an issue as you
(12:19):
mentioned, they have thefertility rate and the highest
in the world.
And it's really dramatic in acountry that is suffering
climate change.
That is an issue that is linkedto everything we are saying.
How climate change is affectingthings is that it's reducing the
land that can be used, the waterthat can be used in the country
and how this is, for instance,now terrorism in the area i s
(12:42):
also affected by t his lack ofresources.
People that were historicallyfarmers, people that have
livestock and t hey a re nomads,for instance, they don't have
anywhere to go now.
And so this is affectingdramatically, the life of these
people.
Going back to the situation thatwe are facing now, we have been
(13:06):
struggling to convince parentsof the good for the girl, for
the family, of having the girlsin t he school.
How the prosperity of the entirefamily, t he entire community
will benefit from sending girlsto school.
How do we use t hese argumentnow when boys and girls are at
home?
(13:26):
When they cannot continuedistance learning for a l ong t
ime time, probably for let's saymany months?
And we see now that covid isgoing down in many countries
like in Europe, for instance, Wedon't see the same here.
It's the opposite in Africa andLatin America in Southeast Asia,
for instance.
So it's going to be many monthsthat these girls are going to be
(13:48):
at home, as I mentioned, takingcare of relatives and also often
working.
They will be able to go to workon the informal economy.
So by the time they reopen theschools, many of these girls,
especially young women, theywill never go back.
This is not only a theoreticalperspective, it happened with
the Ebola crisis in 2014, 2016in West Africa where Guinea,
(14:11):
Sierra Leone, and Liberia wereaffected a lot by Ebola and they
shut down all the schools formore than a year.
And there were thousands a ndthousands of girls that were not
going to school, I was readingthe other day, a report by the M
alala foundation and t hey wereestimating that t aken in
consideration, the rates ofgirls that didn't go to school
(14:31):
in Sierra Leone, after Ebola upto 10 million girls will not go
back to school after thecoronavirus crisis.
Ten Million girls, more.
Considering that we have alreadynow, I mentioned, these 59
million.
Maybe 30 to 40 million.
are girls.
(14:52):
We have 10 more million girls will n ot go to school because of
that.
And as you mentioned, these willhave consequences in if they
don't g o to school, thelikelihood for them to be
married, even if they are 13, 14years old, even if it's illegal
in their countries to getmarried, t hey w ill get
married.
They will get pregnant.
They will be abused.
(15:14):
So iit's a really a viciouscircle and we need to break this
vicious circle and education isa good w ay t o d o i t.
Kelley Lynch (15:30):
On that note.
How are countries generally atthe moment thinking about this
crisis?
Alberto Begue (15:38):
So, we have here a geographical issue is that in
Northern hemisphere countries,usually the school year is
ending now.
Meaning that these kids, theylost, let's say three months of
school, four months of school insome cases.
So, in some cases they aretrying to catch up and they are
saying, okay, sorry guys, theschools were closed because of
(16:01):
the virus.
In September, we'll resume andwe will do our best to catch up
or to start earlier.
My child i s s tarting a m onthearlier than usual, for
instance.
The problem is in countries,like for instance, I was talking
to a friend in Argentina wherethey s tarted the school year in
February and they shut down thes chools in March.
Meaning that they kind of say,Oh, forget about t he entire
(16:24):
year, because it's nine months,10 months ahead of them.
O r t he s chools most likely will be closed.
But they kind of just say, Oh,forget about this year.
They need to do somethingbecause if not, they will not be
able to catch up because theywill lose an entire year.
And this can be dramatic,especially for instance, with
(16:45):
secondary education.
These kids are planning alreadytheir future to find a job to go
to university.
So it's a really dramaticsituation where it depends a lot
on the preparation ofministries.
Some countries, they had crisisregarding crisis in the past,
and they are more prepared.
(17:05):
It was not coronavirus becausethis is new, but it was
earthquakes or other naturaldisasters or war conflicts,
ethnic conflict.
And so for instance, in SierraLeone, before the Ebola, they
didn't have any plan on how tosupport students, teachers,
parents, in case of anemergency.
(17:26):
I did a study there in 2016 andI was analyzing the response
that they had to the Ebolacrisis.
And then in 2017, I came back toanalyze the new education sector
plan.
And I was surprised to see thatthey had added a full section in
(17:48):
terms of how to respond in caseof emergency.
That can be Ebola, can be a newconflict, can be a natural
disaster.
It is not exactly the same, theresponse, but at least you can
prepare in case that you have acrisis.
For instance, in Sierra Leone,they cannot count much on the
(18:08):
internet because not many peoplehave access, but they do own TV
and radio.
I would say, I don't know ifmost, but many people, they have
TV and even more, they haveradio.
It's very common for them, evena smartphone.
So you can adapt the contents ofthe curriculum for instance, to
these different media.
But you have to do it inadvance.
(18:28):
The problem now is thatgovernments are running to
respond with no time becausekids are really at home.
Teachers are already at home.
You cannot put them together totrain them.
You need to train them online aswell.
Nobody was prepared for that.
And they have paper.
They have all t he m aterials,but you don't have this in
(18:50):
digital format.
So the teacher w ill need toscan.
if they're lucky to have ascanner at home, they will need
to scan what they have on paperto be able to send it by email,
in case the family has an email.
So it's really technologicallyfeasible, but it's very
difficult to do it.
(19:11):
Sometimes teachers, also foreconomic reasons, if he's not
paid, for instance, we have alot of community t eachers, men
and women that are from thevillage and my community, we pay
an incentive.
He or she will be teaching mykids.
Probably my community will notbe able to pay anymore during
(19:32):
this crisis.
The thing is that even when theschool reopens, teachers will
not be available because he orshe has to go somewhere else to
make a living.
So there are economicimplications of the crisis that
are affecting also theavailability of teachers.
And we saw this with the Ebolacrisis.
We see these in South Sudan witha conflict with the war.
(19:54):
In Haiti, I remember after theearthquake in 2010, many
teachers were not paid by theministry.
And they started working inagriculture in the North of the
country, or they went back tothe village to work at the farm
of a relative and they willnever come back to the school.
In this case, private schoolswill suffer even more.
(20:15):
And I remember after, forinstance in Haiti, after the
earthquake, many private schoolsdid not survive.
They were shutting down becausethey were sometimes affected
directly.
The school was down because ofthe earthquake and they didn't
have the money to renovate it orrebuild it.
And we're talking worldwidedozens of millions of kids that
(20:38):
will not be able to come back.
And the public schools will notbe able to absorb many of these
children.
Or in the best situation wheresome schools can accommodate
more kids, this will haveconsequences on quality because
now we have already 50, 60, 70kids with one teacher in the
classroom.
If you accommodate even morekids, let's say to a hundred
(21:01):
kids.
The quality will go down.
A nd we have already thesituation before COVID one
teacher with a hundred students.
And I mean, it's impossible.
Kelley Lynch (21:10):
Or in Tanzania I saw 256 students in one
classroom.
I mean, there was no room forthe teacher to even stand.
Alberto Begue (21:23):
Yeah, they can go to school, but what are they
learning?
The good thing is that somecountries will learn the hard
way that they need to plan forthe future and for future
crises.
This is very important.
And I think it's a very strongmessage to governments.
As they say sometimes, if youwant peace, prepare for war.
(21:45):
It is not when the war startsthat you suddenly begin to think
about what to do.
Kelley Lynch (22:00):
I wondered it's kind of an unsavory question,
but I think given what's kind ofgoing on in America at this time
and perhaps even for other donorcountries as well.
I can imagine that there are alot of people who say, well,
(22:24):
look, we've really got to takeour own resources, focus on
ourselves and you guys just needto figure it out and we've got
to focus our resources overhere, where we are.
What are the consequences ofthat kind of thinking if you did
(22:45):
act on that?
Alberto Begue (22:46):
I think the situation where 40 million
unemployed people here in theUS, people would say, okay,
let's shut down USAID and let'stake all the resources for us-
for the Americans.
It's like, no, this is not theanswer in the case of education.
The main problem of thinkingthat,"Oh, who cares about the
(23:07):
education of children inAfghanistan is that when the
Taliban arrived in Afghanistan,for instance, one of the issues
is that you had a big proportionof adults that were illiterate
and didn't have the intellectualtools to fight against such a
(23:30):
radical way of seeing life.
That, for instance, were sendinggirls home, prohibiting women to
be nurses, to be doctors, todrive.
And we see the consequences thatthis had for the entire planet,
not only for Afghanistan.
And we had 9-11 and we had thewar in Afghanistan, the war in
(23:54):
Pakistan.
Pakistan is a nuclear power.
India, their neighbor is anuclear power.
This could be a very longconversation, but in the sense
that we are all linked nowadays,and the fact of not educating
people will have consequences,first for the country, but in
(24:15):
the medium term, not even thelong term, will have
consequences for the neighborsand I would say for everybody.
And I would say a very importantpoint is economically even with
a selfish position, we haveinterests for other countries to
be more educated because theywill be more developed.
(24:36):
They will consume more.
Even in this perspective thatfrom I prefer, a human rights
approach, of course.
But for these kinds of peoplethat maybe the human r ights
approach is not good enough,let's use a more economic
approach in the sense of saying,if t hese countries don't
(24:57):
consume, they will not buy ourproducts.
And the US companies are sellinga lot abroad and the more
educated are people, the bettereconomy they will have.
The better they will be able toparticipate socially,
politically, culturally.
The more stable they will be.
And t hese h ave consequences interms of peace and peace is for
(25:20):
everybody.
So really education is the firststage for a b etter society
everywhere and this is good foreverybody.
Kelley Lynch (25:42):
Are there new ideas and new possibilities that
might come out of this pandemic?
Is there kind of a, somethinglike a new normal that we could
be looking to find a new newmeans of educating people in the
global South?
Alberto Begue (26:03):
I don't like much this expression of back to
normal because normal in manycountries means suffering for
many people.
So we use an expression that is"Build back better" in the sense
of, okay, we need to rebuild theeducational systems.
Let's do it better.
Let's make sure, as I mentioned,for instance without repeating
(26:24):
this idea of having bettereducation sector plans, where
crises are already considered inadvance.
Where for instance, we haveteachers that are well trained
in distance learning.
Even when they reopened theschools, you can already at the
same time train teachers for thescenario where you need to shut
(26:46):
down schools again.
That most likely is going tohappen for different reasons.
It can be a second outbreak ofthe coronavirus.
Can be a new Ebola as we arehaving now in Congo, for
instance, for several monthsalready.
Can be a new conflict.
Can be an earthquake.
(27:07):
There are many situations whereit would be good to have many of
your teachers trained to dodistant learning.
Also, schools can be a very goodplace to teach kids about things
that are affecting the entiresociety, not only themselves,
for instance, health issues,hygiene issues.
(27:28):
They can be a very good way ofpassing messages to the
community in terms of theimportance of washing their
hands.
That is something core to reducemortality, for instance, infant
mortality, for instance.
To talk about vaccines.
To educate the community thatvaccines are important, for
(27:48):
instance.
Nutrition issues, kids, they canlearn about nutrition issues,
and they will take thesemessages to the mother that is
cooking at home.
So we have different ways ofworking better when schools are
reopening.
One of the most important thingsis to make sure that outbreaks
(28:12):
are not happening in schools.
That was one of the issues withEbola was to make sure that at
least in the school case, we'resafe.
Maybe when they were going home,they were not so safe, but at
least to make sure that hundredpercent of kids are safe.
And I know it's not easy withcoronavirus because the social
(28:33):
distancing with kids doesn'twork.
I mean, there is no way to havekids six, seven, eight years old
to say, Oh, six feet apart.
You cannot touch each other evenif you didn't see your best
friend in three months.
I mean, that's impossible.
But, here in the US as well, Isee these CDC guidelines, school
(28:53):
guidelines, w here experts, they are t hinking, y ou k now
how to do this in a better way.
The thing is that many of thesecountries in the global South,
they will need technical supportto be able to develop good
strategies and to enforce themover time.
Not only at the very beginning,when everybody's scared about
(29:13):
the virus, but later whenhopefully the virus is gone, or
we have a vaccine, we need tokeep these protocols in place
for-ever, I would say.
Kelley Lynch (29:23):
Forever?
Alberto Begue (29:24):
Forever, because we'll have crises, different
crises.
Not forever for the coronavirus,but in many countries and even
in a rich countries, we need tobe prepared to have another
(29:46):
different pandemic or to have adifferent conflict.
I mean, we had the Katrinanatural disaster in the South,
in the US.
I mean, it's not so far and weneed to be prepared to respond.
Kelley Lynch (29:59):
And with the changing climate, we have much
more likelihood of these kindsof things happening.
Alberto Begue (30:04):
Yeah.
It's not if, it's when.
Kelley Lynch (30:06):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Alberto Begue (30:10):
All of us, again, we cannot say climate change is
only for Bangladesh.
No, no, no, no.
It's for us, it's for everybody.
Kelley Lynch (30:29):
So I know the education in emergencies is one
component of"Building backbetter." Is there anything else
that you see in terms of maybe,maybe it's learning platforms,
maybe it's using televisionradio smartphones, what are you
(30:51):
guys looking at in terms of howto get kids learning again?
I mean, if you can't be inschool and particularly if you
have 250 some odd children inyour classroom, there's no way
you can.
I mean, these kids are alreadyon shifts, so you've got a group
in the morning.
You've got a group in theafternoon and you have no space.
(31:12):
Education budgets are stretchedalready.
So what are people thinking interms of practical ways over the
next, even if it's just to sayover the next year or 18 months,
to educate these children, or tomake sure that there are fewer
(31:37):
impacted than the worst casescenarios?
Alberto Begue (31:42):
There are different ways to approach that,
but I'm going to mention onethat I have been working a bit
on it on how to try to planthat.
It's to talk about distancelearning, but considering that
many kids cannot be online.
Meaning that you need to havewhat we call offline distance
learning.
Meaning that we need to makesure that kids, especially
(32:08):
youth, that don't have access tothe internet, they can still
download to the smart phones,for instance, that are really
spread worldwide.
And you can see that youth, forinstance, i n Niger, they have a
smartphone, even in rural areas.
And so, I know some experiencesfor instance, some countries
where they have been doing,places, sometimes t he school,
(32:33):
but can be a center of thecommunity for instance, where
they have a device that you canuse with Bluetooth to download
content.
And you take this content homeand you can be working on that
on your smartphone.
If you have a tablet orcomputer, of course, but you
don't need to be connected allthe time in order to be able to
(32:55):
access the content you need tolearn.
But you go, let's say once aweek with Bluetooth, you
download everything that yourteacher sent to you.
You can even communicate withyour teacher remotely, then you
go home and you can work.
So of course, if it's a smartphone, it's not the same as
having a bigger screen,obviously, but also the contents
(33:19):
are being adapted.
And so content to be taught bythe teacher in the classroom,
you have a way of writing atextbook.
It's different when you have todo a online class and it's
different when you need to use asmartphone.
But I found in Burkina Faso lastyear, for instance, talking to
(33:41):
our professor, that teacher, andshe said that she had no idea
how to use a computer.
She never used a computer, butwhen I mentioned the smartphone,
she said, Oh, yes, I'm onFacebook and I'm familiar with,
with the smartphone.
Okay, let's create content sothis teacher can teach in the
case that she cannot be inschool, in the classroom that
(34:05):
she can teach the students, cancommunicate with students using
the smartphone.
But with the smartphones, thepossibilities are huge.
The thing that you need, again,you need to be prepared in
advance.
You cannot now in the midst ofthe crisis, when everybody's at
home to tell teachers to betrained online, to be able to
(34:26):
teach online.
There is no way.
This cannot work.
Some countries are trying, butthis cannot work.
We need to be prepared inadvance and really consider that
this is a priority.
Even at the end of this crisis,to be prepared for the next
crisis is a priority.
This implies a lot of resourcesand sometimes the ministry of
(34:48):
finance will say, Oh, sorry, Ihave no money for that.
Well, the consequence of nothaving money now is that in two
months, or in 10 years, you willhave another crisis and you will
suffer again.
And the economic cost of that,it's billions.
And so it's an economiccalculation that they have to do
as well.
(35:09):
And it's a global way ofthinking that must be there.
It's not each ministry decidingindividually.
It's something that we dounderstand as humankind that we
need to be prepared for thesekinds of crises.
Kelley Lynch (35:23):
Right?
Right.
And so, as a last question, ifsomebody kind of gave you the
Magic wand and they said, right,okay, You can Set some things,
(35:45):
right?
You can put some things on a newtrajectory.
What would you do?
Alberto Begue (35:51):
We need to make sure we have an education for
the 21st century.
We cannot continue, for instance, having education like you have
the teacher and the students infront of him or her listening
all the time.
As in many countries byrepetition, they are learning
how to read and write byrepetition in African countries.
(36:12):
Really I've been there workingfor more than 20 years and it's
painful to see teachers thatthey are repeating, repeating
things, kids, they are repeatingthings.
This is not a way of learning.
And this should be like a lessonlearned of saying, okay, we need
to rethink the way we teach.
We need to have a moreparticipatory approach.
(36:34):
And it's not just to have thisrigid curriculum where the
ministry is deciding that allkids have to learn exactly the
same thing.
And they need to learn exactlyall the same at the same pace.
We need to rethink this.
And we have already s ent, I mean, it's difficult to compare,
of course, but we have goodexamples like Finland, for
(36:56):
instance, or South Korea, wherethey h ave been rethinking
education with amazing results.
So we need to rethink, even inour rich countries, the way of
educating, but also in theglobal South where they have t
his 19th century education.
Kelley Lynch (37:18):
What do you mean by a 19th century education?
Alberto Begue (37:21):
Well, this image that we have of the classroom of
having a teacher that knowseverything, and we have the
students that they are listeningto the teacher as a God.
They cannot contradict theteacher.
They cannot interact with theteacher.
They cannot say, Oh, I learnedthis somewhere else.
No I didn't tell you to solvethis mathematical problem like
(37:44):
that.
You have to solve it the way Itaught you yesterday.
Kids at home, they can learnmore things than what the
teacher can give in one hour, intwo hours, in three hours, but
you need an open mind of theseteachers.
Really it is this hierarchy thatwe need to break and digital
(38:07):
platforms are a great thing forthat.
And a situation where theteacher is not in front of me is
forcing me to look in differentplaces for learning.
It can be the family.
It can be the internet.
It can be communicating withfriends.
Even illiterate parents, theysee the possibilities of having
(38:28):
t heir kids educated.
Opportunities that they didn'thave and the only option they
had was to stay in the village,b eing poor, working with a very
minimal income.
They see how education, notnecessarily, but can be an
option to break the circle ofpoverty and for kids to be able
(38:50):
to have a better job, toparticipate more socially,
culturally, politically.
Not to be so much influenced bypoliticians, by dictators, in
some countries.
And so that there are healthissues, for instance, they see
that educated people have betterhealth, less kids.
(39:10):
They d ecide the kids they want.
It's not that I'm saying to haveless k ids i s necessarily good,
but at least you decide the kidsyou want.
And if you are better educated,you can make these decisions.
Kelley Lynch (39:25):
Indeed.
Well, Alberto, thank you so muchfor your time and sharing what
you have with us.
Hi Cindy.
Hi Tanvir.
(39:47):
What did you think about whatAlberto had to say?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvi (39:56):
Basically, if you look at it, there are two
kinds of scenarios in ourcountry or in places like ours.
It's the survival of theeducation system or the students
themselves.
Whether they go back to schoolor they completely drop out of
school.
Whereas in your country, you areactually looking at how to
(40:21):
provide the service, like theeducation quality of education.
My mom has run a school for thelast 32 years.
This is a private school.
She started off as kind of asocial service, I would say.
(40:41):
She had about 200 to 300students.
Now with this corona situationhas put her in a place where she
is actually thinking whether shewill be able to maintain the
school or not.
Her income is from the tuitionfrom the students.
So since students are not comingto the school, they are not
(41:02):
paying the tuition.
She has managed three monthsfrom her own personal fund.
But if it looks like it is goingto linger, she doesn't have the
money to manage that.
If she decides to close it down,then what happens to these
students?
This situation is not actuallyunique to her.
(41:25):
We don't have an adequate numberof public schools and also the
quality of those public schools,90% of them, those public
schools are really miserable.
They don't have infrastructure.
They don't have proper teachingstaff.
To supplement that there are allthese private schools.
(41:46):
These are basic private schools,which actually manages to fill
the gap.
And if they are forced to shutdown, what happens to those
children who go to that school?
Because the public system cannotabsorb this huge number of
(42:06):
students, they're already in adifficult situation with the
existing number of students thatthey have.
If they have to take this extraburden, it's going to collapse.
So this is what I, when I saythis is more of a survival mode,
(42:26):
this is what I mean.
We will have see a huge numberof dropouts.
Kelley Lynch (42:33):
What happens to girls?
I mean, particularly becausegirls are much more
disadvantaged in countries likeBangladesh.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (42:43):
Girls are sort of the last to get in line.
When it's a choice betweensending your son and daughter to
school, if you have a difficultyor economic hardship, it will
always be the send the son tothe school.
Keep the girl at home.
So because of this coronavirussituation, if we have dropouts,
(43:08):
the majority would be the girlsand that will have so many knock
on effects.
If girls are educated, you havea better country.
And Alberto actually refer tothat.
Where we are as a country wherewe are now, the full credit goes
(43:30):
to the girls who came out of thehouse, started learning, started
educating and started earningand started contributing to the
society and to the family andeventually to the country.
That's the reality.
Cindy Sealls (43:48):
How is your mom going to move forward with her
school?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:54):
She's actually thinking of two plans.
One is short term.
One is long term.
For the longterm plan, we aresupporting her with getting a
loan or something like that,managing the funding.
And as a short term solution tothis problem, she is actually
(44:16):
using WhatsApp as anx educationplatform.
Cindy Sealls (44:21):
How does that work with WhatsApp?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (44:24):
See, we don't have huge level of
internet in the country, but wehave a mobile network and smart
phones are available in theremotest corner of the country.
So that created this opportunityof connecting students who went
(44:47):
back to the villages because thecity is locked down, but they
have a phone.
So using the WhatsApp, theteachers can send class lessons
and then have a groupdiscussion.
And that became a very goodsolution.
Kelley Lynch (45:07):
How is that going to change then this, I mean,
Alberto mentioned this 19thcentury education.
He also mentioned that it wasreally difficult to train
teachers to do this kind of verydifferent teaching whenever
they've never been doing this.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (45:25):
Actually, that was like one of the biggest
challenge.
So what we did, we actuallyphysically had to bring in some
of them to the school to showthem how to download the app and
how to create groups and thingslike that and how to upload and
download.
I would consider my mom as verylucky because I have in house
(45:51):
all the infrastructure, like thescanner, the proper software,
the computer.
So I'm the one who is actuallyconverting the regular teaching
materials for digital platform.
But most don't have access tothat.
Kelley Lynch (46:07):
And are students responding or not so much?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (46:12):
They're the ones who are actually not
driving the whole thing.
They call up the teachers tostart the class, or they're the
one who is pushing, you know,like, why are you late today?
Cindy Sealls (46:26):
You know what I just thought of?
You know, this whole move awayfrom the 19th century teaching
model, maybe.
I mean, this is how you think ofit.
You know, here's a thing that wecall a disaster there's COVID
but look at all thesepossibilities.
Cause I was just thinking, wow,okay.
So, because the students knowmore about this digital learning
(46:48):
than the teachers, then it'sgoing to have to force some of
the teachers to say, Hey kid, Iwant to set up this, but I don't
know how to do it.
Can you help me do it?
And then that brings about achange of mindset.
Kelley Lynch (47:00):
And so those are my stages, the power dynamic,
maybe in the classroom as itwere.
It makes me think of the thingthat you were describing about g
irls education and theempowerment of women.
It's a very similar dynamic,right?
It has meant a lot more equalityfor women and men.
(47:22):
And it's brought huge changeseconomically to Bangladesh.
I wonder what this actuallybring.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:30):
It's exactly.
That kind of parallel that ishappening.
Like when guards came out of thehouse, we had this economic
boom.
So now that students arechanging the parameters of
education or learning, I amhopeful that we really have a
(47:51):
different kind of learning andbetter learning in future.
Cindy, I know you work inschools.
So how are you planning tomanage the situation?
When students start coming backto school,
Cindy Sealls (48:12):
Our online learning seemed to go pretty
smoothly in the spring.
So it looks as though we'regoing to try to stay with that
as well as hopefully on campus.
So it's going to be a hybridmodel, we hope, and we're gonna
(48:34):
basically split the students.
You know, all this is up in theair, of course, but because you
can't according to DC, which iswhere our school is.
You can't have more than 10students in a classroom.
So that's limiting everybody,private schools, public schools.
(48:56):
So we're all going to have to goto this hybrid model.
Kelley Lynch (48:59):
But one of the other things that I felt like
surprised me was how many peopleyou said were really interested
in the school.
I mean, I think originally youwere really concerned that
parents are, might not want tobe putting my children into a
private school, but in factyou've found it's the opposite.
Cindy Sealls (49:19):
Yeah.
We've been pleasantly surprisedat how much interest we're
getting from people who kids arein public schools right now,
because for them, I guess theexperience that they had, you
know, after we all left schoolwas not very positive.
(49:39):
And so they are contacting us.
They're not just coming to usand saying, just because we know
you're a private school, we knowyou'll do a better job.
They want to know, okay, are youguys going to be this, this
online learning for your wholeschool year?
And we have to be honest withthem to say, Hey, we can only
(49:59):
have 10 students in a class at atime.
And so we're going to have to dosome online learning.
Where we live some of thesesmaller schools are going to
have the problem of your mom'sschool, where maybe they don't
have the kind of resources to beable to have half of their
cohort coming in and then have abig cleaning because you got to
(50:22):
hire the cleaning people tocome.
They'll probably going to beworking overtime because you're
going to have maybe two or threemajor cleanings a week.
I used to work for a smallschool and we could have, we
could only, if we couldn'tafford any maintenance people,
we could only afford thecleaning people.
They only came in every day fora couple of hours a day.
(50:43):
And you know, they like emptythe trash, mop the floor, but
they certainly couldn't do themajor cleaning that you're going
to need for this.
There's just no way.
We couldn't afford it as aschool.
We could not afford it.
So I don't know what's going tohappen to those schools.
And then like you said, allthose kids, they're not coming
to us because the parents can'tafford it.
They're going to go into thepublic school.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (51:04):
We have to come out with a creative
solution to all thesesituations.
And we are like pushed to theedge that we have to do.
It it's either do or die kind ofsituation.
That's the silver lining of thiscorona situation.
And for the education, I thinkthis is a great opportunity to
(51:26):
break free of the things thatdid not work and to start fresh.
Kelley Lynch (51:34):
Look at you adding all the positivity now?
That's twice in a row.
I love it.
All right.
Well on that note, thank youguys as always.
Thank you.
Bye.
Bye.
Cindy Sealls (51:53):
We know this was a really long episode and we're
really glad that you listened toall the way to the end.
We hope you found itinteresting.
And that you learned something.
Kelley Lynch (52:08):
This is online learning.
Cindy Sealls (52:08):
You're right.
Oh my goodness.
I didn't even think of that.
Kelley Lynch (52:12):
And it's not boring.
This is some pretty cool stuff.
If we do say so ourselves.
Cindy Sealls (52:19):
And we do say so ourselves and online learning is
awesome.
Not boring, online, learning forfree.
And remember you're saving theplanet when you subscribe.
Just want to throw that outthere.
Kelley Lynch (52:36):
The other thing is it, next week, I'm just taking a
break.
It's going to be one week.
We're not going to be here, butyou can go back and listen to
all those other episodes thatyou missed.
Then we'll be back the followingweek with the next step.
Speaker 5 (52:51):
Yeah.
So you're getting homework.
You're gonna listen to theseother things and you're gonna
say, okay, who would like thisone?
I think so.
And so would like that one andyou're going to share it with
them and you're going to say,make sure you subscribe after
you listen.
So there you go.
That's your homework.
Bye.
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