History matters: heroes or traitors?

The divisions that have taken hold of the country are playing out not only in our public lives, but also in some of our closest relationships. 

What drives the tensions are our very different answers to that perennial question: What do you do when you believe your country is heading the wrong direction? 

In this episode, we look to history — and the story of a man who has been called “one of the most troubling figures in American History”— for insight. 

Note: The cover image of John Brown is from a painting called Tragic Prelude, a mural painted in 1937 by John Steuart Curry for the Kansas State Capitol building in Topeka.

Portrayals of Brown have changed over time. "From 1890 to about 1970 John Brown was insane. Before 1890 he was perfectly sane, and after 1970 he has slowly been regaining his sanity." —from Lies My Teacher Told Me, Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong, byJames W. Loewen

Theme music: Fragilistic by Ketsa; licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0

The music at the end of the episode is
Battle Hymn of the Republic Medley by Marisa Anderson
Free Music Archive, CC BY-NC-ND 3.0 US

Episode Transcript

Kelley Lynch (00:00):
As we record this, it's almost a week after
inauguration day.
And for some of us, it feelslike we can finally breathe
again.
But I'm well aware that thereare many in the country on both
the left and the right who feeldifferently.
The divisions that have surfacedin recent years, aren't going
away anytime soon.
Watching the helicopter carryPresident Trump away the other

(00:24):
morning, I wondered if perhapsthe most enduring legacy of his
presidency might be the largenumber of families it has
divided over the last fouryears, including mine.
But I take heart from the factthat we've made it through times
of even greater division thatpitted brother against brother,

(00:44):
as the fate of the country hungin the balance.
Welcome.
I'm Kelly Lynch and I'm CindySealls.
And this is A New Normal, apodcast that reimagines a future

(01:08):
that starts with each one of us.
The bare bones of this episodehave been sitting on a hard
drive for several months now.
We started it after black livesmatter.
Protests had swept the countryand as far left protests took
hold of Seattle and Portland.
As those were going on, one ofmy family members, a former

(01:29):
hardcore progressive who'sturned into a hard right Trump
supporter(and yes, hi, to wantto know how that happened) was
sending me YouTube videos andemail missives grounded in an
entirely different ecosystem ofbeliefs.
There were videos by the EpochTimes, Tucker Carlson and Glenn

(01:49):
Beck.
Many of them warning of acommunist or socialist takeover,
Officer Guns and gear spoke ofhis refusal to violate the civil
rights of Americans by enforcingmasking.
And Officer Tatum, anAfrican-American, a conservative
and former police officervehemently denied that
African-Americans suffereddisproportionately at the hands

(02:11):
of the police.
Other emails and videos warnedabout the coming civil war plans
by militias to lay siege to thecities and the impossible
prospect of the left defendingagainst a so-called sleeping
giant with hundreds of millionsof firearms, a reference to the
guns that reside largely in thehands of conservative leaning

(02:31):
America.
It was suggested that living inWashington DC might not be such
a good idea.
To say that this didn't exactlyjive with my perception of where
we were as a country is anunderstatement.
I couldn't understand howsomeone who had shared my
understanding of the world socompletely until just a couple

(02:53):
of years ago, could suddenly seethe world so differently.
What did they see?
Maybe they knew something Ididn't know, but I needed to
know I owed it to them, to ourrelationship and to myself to at
least try to see their point ofview.
Cindy and I read the emails andwe watched the videos.

(03:17):
We talked about them on ourregular afternoon walks and in
hours long phone calls.
We challenged ourselves withtrying to see the world through
that lens.
And I have to say, Cindy, whohas long listened to the
diversity of opinions on CSPANradio every morning was so much
better at it than me, but evenfor her, it was disturbing and

(03:39):
unsettling to listen to some ofthese perspectives.
And to know that so many peoplewatched and judging from the
comments agreed with what wasbeing presented.
My response was surprisinglyvisceral.
It was as if my beliefs were mybody and they were being
violently attacked the summerpast in a blur of cognitive

(04:02):
dissonance.
Days of mental chatter dissolvedinto night staring at the
ceiling.
The constant buzz of my mind wasfrying my nervous system.
What was true?
What was false?
Had been a disagreement onpolicy or ideology, that would
have been one thing, but it feltlike the very nature of what I

(04:24):
understood to be reality wasbeing called into question.
My mind could not stop trying tofigure it out.
As soon as one side of meconstructed an argument, the
other side deconstructed it.
It was like having Fox news andMSNBC running in my head 24-7.
A steady stream of emails frommy family member added fuel to

(04:46):
the fire.
There were demands.
"Where's the evidence that thepresident has subverted the rule
of law or the constitution?"There were complaints.
"How can we have an honestconversation when you are just
repeating the mainstream media'stalking points?" There were
questions.

(05:06):
"Do you think I would support apresident that is openly opposed
to the constitution is a racistand a fascist?" There were
statements.
"The only delusion we are livingin is the one where you and your
fellow l eftist believe that ourreality is full of endless
oppression.
And that somehow radicalMarxists are going to fix the

(05:28):
problem and lead us to some sortof utopian land of eternal
equality where merit andpersonal accountability are
tossed out the window as asacrifice to the false idol of
equality of outcome." There werechallenges.
"According to you, I'm supposedto sit here and listen to a
leftist.

(05:49):
Tell me that we are living insome sort of Donald Trump
reality, where he's the oneturning us against each other.
Have you lost your common senseand ability to see reality?" And
there were warnings.
"The new version, of the redguard or the Brown shirts is
forming in front of our eye sand all visible evidence,
strongly suggests they are notforming on the political right."

(06:15):
I accused my family member ofhaving fallen down a rabbit
hole.
I felt myself chasing that whiterabbit too.
And one evening sitting at mykitchen table.
I followed it down a hole, notthe same hole, but definitely
one in proximity.
And for a few minutes, I sat inthat place and looked out at the

(06:38):
world through the looking glass.
I could see it, really see it,but unlike Alice that's when I
decided it was time to give upthe chase.
When I tried it to return to thewarm feather bed of my so-called
liberal bubble, I found itdifficult kind of like how once

(07:00):
you've lived in and traveled tolots of different places and
seen lots of different thingshome just doesn't feel the same
anymore.
Over time, I've settled on anews ecosystem that doesn't only
consist of NPR, PBS democracy.
Now the New York times, theAtlantic and the Washington
Post.

(07:20):
But I will admit that Igravitate to that ecosystem.
It better speaks to my view ofthe world, but I also have to
admit this whole thing hasthoroughly shaken the
foundations of what I think Iknow.
What's true?
How much of what my bubble saysis real, which things do I

(07:42):
accept?
And which do I reject?
Another email from my familymembers showed that they were
struggling with some of theexact same questions.
"I'm dumbfounded at howpolarized we have become," it
read"even the facts and thestudies and the research
projects are polarized.
How can we ever agree on publicpolicy when there appears to be

(08:04):
no clear foundation of truththat is visible to both sides?"
For her part, Cindy continued tolisten to the vastly divergent
opinions on CSPAN radio everymorning, just as she does to
this day.
And for a long while there, sheeven tried to deconstruct the

(08:27):
arguments of YouTubers, like theaforementioned Officer Tatum.
She spent hours pouring overcrime statistics, wondering what
they actually said aboutAfrican-Americans.
She looked into conservativeclaims about affirmative action
by taking a hard look at thedata and thinking deeply about
what it meant.

(08:48):
It broke my heart to see mybrilliant friend staring into
the face of that most repugnantquestion of all,"Are we actually
an inferior people?" But I haveto hand it to her long after I
had retreated to s afe mentalground, she just kept going.
I admired her objectivity andher fortitude, but sometimes I

(09:12):
also wondered if maybe she wasjust a glutton for punishment.
All of this eventuallyculminated in Cindy and I
forming a small conversationgroup that I've mentioned
several times on this podcastmade up of people from points
along the political spectrum.
Our aim is to get better atlistening, to discussing and

(09:33):
understanding different pointsof view.
So far, we haven't invited myfamily member to join us.
Is it cowardice perhaps, but youhave to learn to walk before you
can run right?
Several days ago, looking backover the emails from this
summer, I came across this,"Where the radical right wing

(09:55):
conservatives marching in thestreets, Kelly, where are the
conservative looters and riders?
Where are the conservative whitelives matter protesters?" In the
wake of the eye popping jawdropping events of January 6th,
having given our emotions a weekto settle, our group, which one

(10:18):
of our youngest members hasdubbed The People's Liberation
Think tank attempted what I hadimagined was sure to be a heated
conversation about the stormingof the Capitol.
The question we arrived at wasdesigned to keep the polarizing
flashpoint that is Donald Trumpout of it.
We asked,"Were those who stormedthe Capitol on January 6th,

(10:39):
traitors or Patriots?" Theconversation didn't go down as I
had expected.
The youngest among us diehard,Bernie supporters started us out
followed by the more middle ofthe road liberals.
Each followed the same thoughttrajectory.
If you've been told for years bypeople in power and people who

(11:01):
should be in the know and thedeep recesses of the internet,
that the Democrats are activelytrying to destroy your country.
That their leaders are Satanworshiping pedophiles.
And that just weeks ago, thepresidency was fraudulently
stolen by a highly sophisticatedplot that the media and even the
courts refuse to acknowledge.

(11:23):
Then the actions of January 6thcould be said to be correct,
particularly in light of ourfounding stories.
We discussed a quote attributedto Ben Franklin, that poses the
question,"In 200 years, willpeople remember us as heroes or
traitors?" Another by ThomasPaine States that the duty of a
Patriot is to protect hiscountry from its government.

(11:46):
Clearly there's no shortage ofmoral ambiguity here.
Nevertheless, every one of usagreed, whatever they believed,
what they committed was by somedefinitions, treason and by
others insurrection and theyshould be charged accordingly.

(12:07):
I had expected some pushbackfrom the conservatives in the
group, but the issue wassurprisingly cut and dry.
There was no discussion of moralambiguity.
Whatever you wanted to call it,treason, sedition, insurrection.
It was a criminal act each andevery person who entered the
Capitol on January 6th should becharged and prosecuted to the

(12:31):
fullest extent of the law.
Our conversation brought me backto this week's story, which
echoes so many of the themes ofthe past year, racial justice,
disenfranchisement, partisandivision, and civil war.
It also asks the question thathas come up again and again in

(12:52):
our history and is up in a bigway on all sides right now.
What does a good person do whenthey believe their government is
involved in a great evil?
The man we'll be talking abouttoday is both disturbing and
inspiring.
He was a monster to some, aSaint to others.
He worked for the highestideals, human freedom and

(13:15):
equality.
But sometimes he used the mostruthless means in his attempt to
achieve them.
So this week, as part of ourquest to understand more about
the past, that informs ourpresent and will shape our
future.
We present the story of a manwho has been called one of the
most troubling figures inAmerican history.

(13:42):
Great.
Are you ready to go?
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
Bye.
All right.
Mask on.

(14:04):
Hey, here's my phone, could youput Harper's Ferry into Google
maps?

Cindy Sealls (14:07):
Yep.
Harper's Ferry.
Got it.

Kelley Lynch (14:11):
Thanks.
So tell me about John Brown.

Cindy Sealls (14:17):
You didn't learn about John Brown in school?

Kelley Lynch (14:20):
I don't remember John Brown in school.
I mean maybe.

Cindy Sealls (14:24):
Oh, well, I mean, I guess it all depends on where
you grew up, but I grew up here,so we learned a lot about the
civil war and the importantpeople in the times when
African-Americans were slaves.
And John Brown is one of themost important people for black
people, at least during thattime period.

Kelley Lynch (14:47):
So why is that?

Cindy Sealls (14:49):
Because he was one of the, I think only just they
trying to think only whitepeople who took up arms to try
to free the slaves.

Kelley Lynch (15:03):
But what about all of those union soldiers who took
up arms to free the slaves.

Cindy Sealls (15:11):
That was afterwards?

Kelley Lynch (15:13):
Oh, so he was just an early one?

Cindy Sealls (15:17):
No, he was, I mean, remember it's not as if
people were thinking there wasgoing to be a SU I mean, maybe
some people thought there wasgoing to be a civil war, but,
but before him, there was nowhite person who basically had a

(15:39):
slave, was trying to have aslave insurrection.
Only the slaves were havingslave insurrections.
There were no white peoplehaving slave insurrections,
which was what he was trying todo.
I mean, that was the really kindof crazy thing about it.
If you think about that, nowthat I think about it, he was

(16:00):
kind of crazy, right?
Because, yes abolitionists wereupset.
Of course they didn't likeslavery.
They wanted them to do away withslavery.
There was never a white personwho got weapons and had a plan

(16:21):
to free slaves.

Kelley Lynch (16:24):
So he was, um, he was kind of like, what do they
call it today?
There's the word today?
Right?

Cindy Sealls (16:32):
White ally.

Kelley Lynch (16:33):
Yeah.
He was the OG white ally.

Cindy Sealls (16:38):
That's right.
Yeah.
I mean, I'd have to, I'd reallyhave to look through the
records, but I can't recall.
Maybe somebody out there who'slistening to the podcast knows
of some other person who didthat white person who did that.
But I don't think I know of any.
And to black people he was aHero.

(16:59):
That's why we go to Harper'sFerry.
If there's no John Brown,there's nobody going to Harper's
Ferry.

Kelley Lynch (17:10):
Well, it's a nice place.
I mean, you can go river raftingand you can go hiking.

Cindy Sealls (17:14):
But I guarantee you there's a lot of places on
the East coast where you can goriver rafting and hiking.
We haven't been, but you go toHarper's ferry because of John
Brown.
Oh, and he wasn't trying tostart some kind of civil war.

(17:37):
He was just trying to arm theslaves so they could escape.

Kelley Lynch (17:43):
There's a tour.
You want to take it?

Cindy Sealls (17:46):
Sure.

Harper's Ferry Tour Gu (17:48):
Harper's Ferry came to be in 1747.
You could look at that as whenRobert Harper came here.
He comes through this gap.
That's the highway into theShenandoah Valley.
And Robert Harper sees twothings, the beauty of the

(18:09):
property, and he sees runningwater.
He's a millwright and a builder.
And so he bought the land from aguy that was here and, uh,
started a ferry service.
I mean, we're talking minimalferry service.
He has a boat.
And when you call him from theother side, he'll come and get

(18:31):
you and bring you over.
But this was the highway outWest and by 1755 or so the
Virginia assembly said, we'llgive it a name and we'll call
it.
Shenandoah Falls at Mr.
Harper's Ferry.

Kelley Lynch (18:49):
Today, this historic town situated in the
blue Ridge mountains at theconfluence of the Potomac and
Shenandoah rivers is adestination for tourists and
outdoor enthusiasts.
Thomas Jefferson, visiting in1783 said the natural beauty
alone was worth a voyage acrossthe Atlantic.

(19:10):
George Washington knew it well.
He proposed this site as thelocation for a new United States
armory and arsenal.
One of only two such facilitiesat the time in the United
States.

Harper's Ferry Tour Guid (19:23):
George Washington had convinced the war
department to build a federalarmory here.
Why here?
Well, George said it's remote soif we're attacked, they can't
get to us.
In the hills, there's Walnuttrees for the stock of a gun and
on the banks of the Potomacthere's iron or for the barrel

(19:46):
of a gun and water power aplenty.
So we're going to build ourarmory on the Potomac river over
there and start manufacturingguns for the federal government.

Kelley Lynch (20:02):
Construction on the 125 acre site on the banks
of the Potomac began in 1799 andin 1801, it started turning out
muskets rifles and pistols forthe U S army.
During the civil war, beinglocated so close to the Mason
Dixon line, which was the borderbetween the free and the slave

(20:23):
holding States, Harpers ferrywas the site of great strategic
importance, but that also madeit vulnerable.
The town changed hands fromUnion to Confederate forces and
back again, at least 11 times.
In the end, the armory wasdestroyed and floods carried
away the rest.

(20:43):
Today, nothing remains of thearmory except one small.
It stands at the bottom of thetown, not far from its original
location, where the rivers meetand the Appalachian trail enters
the town by the old B&O railroadbridge.
It's known as John Brown's Fort.

Harper's Ferry Tour Guid (21:04):
That's the John Brown Fort, really the
fire engine house for thearmory.
John Brown, kind of acomplicated man to figure out
born in 1800 in Connecticut.
His father was very religiousfollowed the Calvinist religion.

(21:25):
John Brown went to bed everynight saying his prayers, every
meal saying prayers, but hisfather was also an abolitionist
and John Brown was raised inthat environment.
When he was eight, they moved toOhio.
John Brown eventually becameinvolved in the sheep industry.

(21:48):
He could grade wool and he wasin the tanning business.
Tried business in Europe.
And by the 1840s, he wentbankrupt.
And, he also lost, four of hischildren to disease during that

(22:09):
1840 period.
He had 20 kids from two wives.
And I believe, uh, it was afterthe 1840s when he took up the
abolitionists cause even more.
John Brown, will tell youhimself that he was tired of the

(22:30):
abolitionists because they wereall about talking and
compromise.
And most of the abolitionists inthat time where the
intellectuals from the NewEngland area.
John Brown was a man of action.
And he really showed that in1856, when he and his sons ended

(22:51):
up in Kansas.
Kansas at the time, as it becameknown as Bleeding, Kansas.
Kansas was going to vote toenter the Union as either a
slave state or not a slave stateand John Brown became involved
in all of that.
And at one point, thepro-slavery people sacked, the

(23:15):
town of Lawrence, burned it downand injured a lot of people in
John Brown was incensed at that.
And so at night, John Brown andhis sons, and some followers
went out to a farm houses andended up pulling out five
farmers and or their sons andexecuting them in front of their

(23:37):
family.
Pretty violent.
John Brown said, I didn't touchanybody, but he gave the order.

Kelley Lynch (23:46):
Wait a minute, I'm going to interrupt him here.
I don't think I reallyunderstand what was going on in
the country at that point.
Can you explain it to me?

Cindy Sealls (23:58):
You had a lot that was going on in Congress trying
to solve this issue of slaveryand freedom in 1820, you had the
Missouri compromise.
Then in 1850, you had anothercompromise because the Missouri
compromise wasn't working sowell, which included the

(24:19):
fugitive slave act.
In 1854, you had the KansasNebraska act.
In 1857.
You had the Dred Scott decision.
Those were all seminal things inAmerican history.

Kelley Lynch (24:36):
And all things that I don't know.
Did I even get an education?
I mean, I feel so.

Cindy Sealls (24:47):
Yeah.
I bet you did you.
I think most of us learned it inU S history.
Some of these as the countrypushed into the Western
territories and started to openup States, the people in the
North did not want slavery to bein those Western areas.
The people in the South did so,surprise, Congress came up with

(25:10):
a compromise.
We haven't had one of thosesince 1820 when that happened.
Um, but since there were 11 freeStates and 11 slave States, they
said, okay, we'll let Missouricome in as a slave state, but we
have to let Maine come in as afree state so that they could

(25:31):
keep the balance of power inCongress.
And that settled everythingdown, but ultimately it blew up
because there was still slavery.
And there were a lot of peoplewho were very adamantly against
it, one of which was John Brown.

(25:51):
So then what happened was moreterritory started to beat to
come into the union and they hadto decide what they were going
to do with those.
So in 1850, they had anothercompromise and there, it was a
lot of different points of thatcompromise.
But one of the major things thatcame out of that compromise was

(26:12):
that they bolstered the FugitiveSlave Act,.

Kelley Lynch (26:16):
What was that?

Cindy Sealls (26:16):
It was a law that said, if you knew somebody was a
runaway slave, it was yourresponsibility to let somebody
know.
And so that meant, of course youcouldn't house them.
You couldn't hide them.
You couldn't help them.
This new Fugitive Slave Actsaid, you also were responsible

(26:37):
for catching up, like.

Kelley Lynch (26:39):
Who was responsible?

Cindy Sealls (26:40):
Like if you saw this black person and you found
out they were a runaway slave,you had to take them to the
authorities or you were gettingin trouble.
What it also did was it, itbasically created a business
because then they had thesebands of people, men who would

(27:03):
go up to the Northern cities andkidnap black people, cause they
would get money for quoteunquote, bringing them back to
slavery.
But a lot of them weren't evenslaves in the first place.
Wow.
That, that of course made theabolitionists even more angry
because they were already angryabout slavery.

(27:24):
And then people were beingkidnapped and put into slavery.

Kelley Lynch (27:30):
So then you, you mentioned the Kansas Nebraska
Act.

Cindy Sealls (27:35):
So with the Missouri Compromise, it was like
where the state was in thecountry.
So if it was below 36, 30Latitude, it could be a slave
state, but you also had to havea free state to come in.
While the Kansas Nebraska actmandated popular sovereignty,

(27:56):
allowing the settlers of theterritory to determine whether
slavery would be allowed.
So that basically overturned thewhole idea of, okay, we have to
have a Free State and we have tohave a slave slate.
Because now you could have allslave States if the people in
the territory decided that wasso, so what that cause was

(28:19):
people rushing out or, andpeople being paid and to go out
to these Western territories tobe there so that they could vote
to decide whether it was goingto be a slave or free state.
And that led to a very violentperiod in Kansas known as
Bleeding Kansas, becausepro-slavery people and

(28:40):
anti-slavery people were rushingout to settle in the area and be
able to choose whether it'sgoing to be slave or free.
And there was a lot of violencebecause of that.

Kelley Lynch (28:52):
And so that's where John Brown came.
Right?

Cindy Sealls (28:55):
Right.
Well, his sons were living thereand they said to him, you know,
come out here, this is reallybad.
People are getting killedbecause they're coming out here
to settle.
People know that they'reanti-slavery so there's violence
and that, or people know thatthey're pro-slavery and there's
violence.
Yeah.
So it was pretty bad.

Kelley Lynch (29:16):
And then there was one other thing that you
mentioned.

Cindy Sealls (29:19):
The Dred Scott decision.
It's one of the most importantSupreme court decisions in our
history.
A guy who was enslaved DredScott, his former master had
lived with him in free state.
And so he filed a court casesaying that he was free because

(29:42):
he had lived in these Statesthat were free States where you
couldn't have slaves.
And it made it all the way up tothe Supreme court.
And the Supreme court basicallydecided the slaves were
property.
They weren't considered humanbeings.
And as such, they had no rightsunder the constitution.
So of course, Dred Scott did notget his freedom.

(30:05):
And basically that said to theabolitionists that the US was
never going to get rid ofslavery.
That was decided in 1857 and twoyears later in 1859, John Brown
comes to Harper's Ferry.

Harper's Ferry Tour Guide (30:24):
He rents a house, a farm nearby,
and he brings his daughter anddaughter-in-law to give it a
domestic look.
So there weren't 22 guys hangingout in the farm house that never
could leave the farmhousebecause they wanted to maintain
their security.

(30:46):
Eventually, right before theraid in October 16, 17, 18, the
two females leave and Johnground comes to Harper's ferry
with his men.
They enter at night and theytake over the armory.
One of the reasons he came.

(31:07):
With the money he had, healready bought 200 sharps rifles
state-of-the-art rifles at thetime, how much more weapons
would you need?
He had 2000 6 foot tall spearsor pikes as they were called.
He was going to harm the slaveswith the Pikes.
Cause he figured they wouldn'tslaves with that know how to
shoot a gun.

(31:30):
He also came here for headlines.
He wanted to advance his causewhat better place to do that
than a federal armory?
What better place to do thatthan in the state of Virginia,
the largest slave holding statein the union.
And he also came here because ofthe geography.

(31:52):
The mountains would allow him tofade into the mountains with his
guerrilla band of armed men andslaves, and start going down to
the plantations in Virginia,raiding those and freeing the
slaves plantation by plantation.
The slaves who wanted to couldjoin him, the others, he would

(32:14):
send back on the undergroundrailroad, up to Canada.
He had a whole plan to do that.
Even I believe as far South, asSouth Carolin.
He had a map they later foundwith all the places he was
going.
He was going to end slavery withthis uprising.

(32:35):
And he got the idea.
I believe that he could do itbecause after the Kansas affair,
he went back a year later toMissouri and raided a farmhouse
there, killed the farmer and got11 slaves back to Canada and
freed them.
And I think that was thebeginning of him thinking, yeah,

(32:57):
that's not too hard.
That wasn't too hard.
I made it.
And I could do the same here.
But he came here on that night,the 16th, and they quickly took
over the armory, the arsenalwith the weapons stored there.
And he sent men towardsCharlestown, uh, about 10 miles

(33:18):
West of here to get a hostagewho they knew about, Louis
Washington, great grand nephewof George Washington.
They brought him back here, thefire engine house.
Any other people that happenedto be roaming around, we're put
into a fire engine i house forhostages.

(33:41):
Things were going okay until1:30 in the morning, train comes
through.
John Brown's men stops it.
And a baggage handler here forthe Baltimore& Ohio railroad
sees that's not right.
That should keep going.
It's an express train.
His name was Hayward Sheppard.

(34:02):
He goes out to the bridge andJohn Brown's men tell him to
stop.
He doesn't and they shoot him inthe back and he dies the next
day.
Hayward Sheppard was a freedman.
First person shot by theabolitionists was black.
Some irony there.
And then things start to breakdown more in the morning when

(34:24):
400 workers are coming to thearmory.
Something's not right.
We have armed men in thestreets.
John Brown during his trialclaimed his biggest mistake
after he cut all the Telegraphwires to cut off communication,
biggest mistake, he let thetrain go.

(34:45):
He was, he said he was concernedabout the passengers.
What's the first thing the traindoes at the next station.
You have a problem in Harper'sferry.
Word gets to president Buchananin Washington, DC.
He searches around for anofficer who can take control of

(35:06):
things and he finds ColonelRobert E.
Lee.
Robert E.
Lee US army gets his good buddy,Jeb Stuart to come with him on
the train.
And 90 Marines are sent herealso with a canon.
So by the afternoon of thesecond day, things are going

(35:29):
badly.
John Brown's men are telling himthat we need to leave.
And John Brown's like, no, we'renot.
Eventually this building becomeshis final holdout.
But in the meantime, the mayorof Harper's Ferry sticks his
head around the corner- once,twice- gets shot and killed.

(35:52):
Town's person at that corner,right there.
Stick to set around the corner,get shot and killed along with a
couple other citizens.
They're shooting at each otherby now because the townspeople
have ridden out and gotten themilitia to send in Harper's
ferry is surround John Brown.
The Raiders are picked off oneby one.

(36:12):
They're chased into theShenandoah river shot killed.
They're chased to the railroadbridge shot and killed.
People spend the rest of the daytaking potshots at the dead
bodies, especially the blackpeople that were part of the
raid.
Five of the Raiders were black,including Dangerfield Newbie.

(36:33):
Dangerfield.
Newbie was a freed man, but hehad a wife and children who were
slaves because slavery, in thosedays you followed the female
side of the family.
If she was a slave, you were aslave and Dangerfield Newbie
tried to buy their freedom.
The owner at first agreed andthen went back on his word.

(36:57):
So Dangerfield Newbie was a latecomer to the John Brown raid and
he wanted to free his wife andkids so he could be with them
and they were 50 miles awayhere.
And he was going to join JohnBrown and get that done.
He's on the bridge.
Things are going badly.
He comes back to this streetright here and he shot with a

(37:22):
railroad spike through theshoulder.
You can put anything into a gunand shoot it.
His body is left there.
And the towns people areincensed at the Raiders, but
especially the black Raiders andthey mutilate his body cut off
his ears.
It's left there in the gutter tobe nibbled at, by the pigs.

(37:48):
Eventually, 10 Raiders arekilled and what's left and up in
the fire engine house,surrounded by militia who have
guns and have been to the localsaloon and are drinking.
So that's kind of a problem toleave.
Finally makes it here at night,tell some militia,"we have this

(38:14):
under control and tomorrowmorning we'll end it." And so in
the morning he sends Jeb Stuartto the door.
By now they're down to 10hostages.
Some have escaped during theafternoon and Jeb Stuart

(38:35):
literally knocks on the door.
And he's the first one torecognize John Brown because Jeb
Stuart had some dealings withhim in Kansas.
So he knew what he looked like.
The townspeople weren't quitesure who this guy was.
Jeb Stuart says, John Brown,time's up.

(38:56):
You need to come out.
Give up.
John Brown says, no, let me takemy men and my hostage is across
the railroad bridge to Maryland.
Once we get there, we can have afair fight and you can start
chasing us.
And Jeb Stuart's answer was thesignal for the Marines to storm

(39:18):
the fire engine house with theirguns, but using bayonets only,
and John Brown is injuredseriously in that raid, but he
lives and eventually he and themen who are left, are taken to

(39:40):
Charlestown.
And about a week later, he's puton trial and he's charged with
murder, treason and inciting anarmed slave rebellion.
And four days later he's foundguilty.
John brand finally madeheadlines.
And this was one of the firsttrials that was covered by the

(40:03):
press because of the Telegraph.
What were the headlines?
Crazy John Brown.
Terrorist, John Brown.
And that's how people saw him inboth the North and the South.
The Richmond Enquirer said theHarper's Ferry invasion has

(40:27):
advanced the cause of disunionmore than any other event.
Since the formation of thegovernment.
Think about it.
White man, arming slaves?
Armed slave rebellion is theslave owners worst nightmare and

(40:48):
in places like Mississippithey're outnumbered greatly.
And that is a big fear.
And they wanted to squash thatquickly and unmercifully.
John Brown was sentenced to hangDecember 2nd.
He has a month in jail beforehis trial.
He spoke so well the judgecommended him: well, you're

(41:11):
guilty as can be, but not thecrazy person other people
thought you were.
During that month he used thepower of the press because they
interviewed him.
He sent letters.
And the intellectuals up in newEngland, including a Henry David
Thoreau, took up his cause.

(41:33):
And Henry David Thoreau wrote"Some 1800 years ago.
Christ was crucified thismorning, per chance.
Captain Brown was hung.
He is not old Brown any longer.
He is an angel of the light."Comparing John Brown to Christ

(41:53):
being crucified on the cross forhis people.
Wow.
We went from terrorists tomartyr.
Eighteen months later, the civilwar breaks out.

(42:13):
This was a spark.
Because the two sides after thisevent would not compromise,
would not talk.
Congressmen were bringingweapons to the floor in
Washington, DC.
they were so ticked off at eachother.
John Brown and his way to thegallows h ands a t jail or a

(42:34):
note and a note, i t said, I, John Brown, a nd n ow quite
certain that the crimes o f thisguilty land will never be purged
away but with blood.
Pretty prophetic.

(43:04):
I've got one last thing for you.
We're going to bring it tomodern day.
But have you been down to thepoint before I have, but let's
go.
Okay.
Cause that's the best view and Iwouldn't want you to leave
Harper Ferry without seeingthat.

Cindy Sealls (43:22):
John Brown was a complicated man, huh?

Harper's Ferry Tour Guide (43:23):
Very much so, but it's always
interesting to hear what peoplehave to say and get a lot of
people, especially from theSouth.
I don't want to hear about JohnBrown.
John Brown was a terrorist.
I mean that's modern day, but Ihad a guy come from Cuba and he
talked to me.
He says, ah, John Brown,Castrofreeing his people.

(43:52):
Everyone looks at himdifferently.
I had a guy come from France,John Brown, French resistance,
putting up a fight against theGermans.

Cindy Sealls (44:18):
Do we really have to record this again?

Kelley Lynch (44:23):
Yeah.
I mean, we just, I know we'verecorded it like five times, but
I have been trying put togetherthe end and I am failing again
and again.
And you know what I mean today?
We talked with Tanvir alreadyand then I spent all day trying
to put that together intosomething that made sense.

Cindy Sealls (44:45):
It's good stuff.
It's juicy, it's juicy.
And it's, you know, and it's,it's not, I mean like everything
in life, there's no clearanswer.
Right.
But um yeah.
What do you think?

Kelley Lynch (45:03):
Well...

Cindy Sealls (45:06):
I mean, to me, you have a very clear sense of
what's right and what's wrong.

Kelley Lynch (45:12):
No, no, no.
Most definitely not.
And that's, that's why I havebeen struggling with this thing
so much is because I see so manyshades of gray and I just can't
find, I mean, I want to stand onsomething that sounds reasonable

(45:35):
and truthful, not a capital Ttruth, but like a small teach
truth and I'm just struggling tofind it.
And I think what keeps trippingme up is that people might take
away from this, that I see somesort of moral equivalence

(45:55):
between what people did in theCapitol and John Brown.

Cindy Sealls (46:02):
This is the comparison.
I see that when other peoplelook at John Brown, they might
see him as a murderer, aterrorist, a trader and
insurgent, just like when peoplesee those people in the capital,

(46:25):
they might see them as tradersand insurgents and some ICM is
Patriots, you know, but, butwe're not trying to make what
we're trying to do is just say,okay, what happened there?
Some of the people in the U Ssee that as heroism and some of

(46:50):
the people see that as traders.
And we are just saying in JohnBrown's time, some of the people
saw that as heroism and a lot ofpeople saw it as treason.
And of course he was, he wasexecuted.

(47:12):
Um, and he, he did murder peopleor he did tell people to murder
people.
Um, but as I said before, I lookat that like the same way I
would, if some German person whosaw what was going on with the
Jews, got a machine gun, went upto the camp.

(47:35):
And I know a lot of the soldiersand their families would the
guards and their families wouldactually live at the camp and
just started mowing people downto try to get some of those
Jewish people out.
I don't know if people would saythat person's a trader to
Germany, you know, there's noambiguity in what was going on.

(47:58):
I think, remember, we're notcomparing these two things.
What we're, what we're talkingabout is that depending on who
you talk to, it could be atotally different belief about
history and what happened, justlike the guy said, we're in

(48:22):
2020.
And he saying that people arecoming there to Harper's ferry.
And they're saying, John Brownis a terrorist is 2020.
Now, imagine if we're in 2020,we know what happens.
We know how it all came out.
We know that there was a warthat killed 635,000 people.

(48:48):
And people are still with all ofthe knowledge that we have about
what happened about why he didwhat he did.
He was a hero.
He was a traitor.
Hero,traitor hero you know,terrorist, I mean, think about
that.

(49:08):
How many years is this?
A hundred and 155 years afterthe war and still in this day
and age, there's, there's thisdiscussion about what w as this
guy?
Was he good for the country?
Was he bad for the country?

(49:29):
And I guarantee you just likeJohn Brown, 155 years from now,
people will still be talkingabout what happened.
And there'll be arguing whetherthose people were heroes or
traitors.

Kelley Lynch (49:56):
Thanks for listening.
I know our schedule has gottenway off base, but I'm working on
putting together some storiesthat will allow me to do some
different kinds of storytelling.
And that means it takes longerto put it all together, but I
hope you find value in whatwe're doing and that you'll keep
checking back.

(50:17):
If you like this episode, pleasedo share it around.
And if you would take a minuteto write us a review or rate the
show, we'd be really grateful.
I know I say this every time,and I know it may not seem like
anything important—I mean, somany podcasters say the same
thing, but it's true.
It does help other listenersfind us.

(50:40):
And that's part of why we'rehere.
Just a reminder that you canalways check out back episodes
along with transcripts shownotes and pictures like those
from today's episode at ourwebsite, a new normal
podcast.com.
We'll be back in a few weekswith our next episode until then

(51:02):
take care and be well.