October 22, 2020 • 57 mins
There's nobody better to kick off our new season — and "Plan Be" — than the man who helped inspire it: Citizen Baratunde, Executive Producer and Host of the hit podcast How to Citizen with Baratunde.
Writer, activist and comedian Baratunde Thurston has been "citizening" since way back in high school (which we discuss). In addition to his podcast, check out his Ted Talk, and his New York Times bestselling book, How to Be Black. You can find all of that and more on his website: www.baratunde.com
OVER ON THE WEBSITE
>We've got a new website: www.anewnormalpodcast.com
>This is where we will post show notes, transcripts and more. It's also the place to subscribe, rate, review and share the show and to sign up for our email newsletter.
>If you've got a Be the Change story you'd like to share—or like for us to share—on the podcast, please get in touch with us via our contact form, which you can find here.
SHOW NOTES
>Cindy mentioned an episode of NPR's Hidden Brain podcast called Moral Combat. Listen to it here.
>Here's links to some resources Cindy and I are using as we set up our Plan Be conversation project, as mentioned in the last part of this episode:
The Listen First Project
The National Conversation Project
>Another podcast we're enjoying that speaks to these themes and this time: To See Each Other
MUSIC
>Slide guitar: Thomas Robertson
>Theme music: Fragilistic by Ketsa
licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cindy Sealls (00:13):
Wait, wait, what was that?
What was that?
Was that a gun?
Oh my God.
Wait.
No, this is not the civil warcannot be the civil war.
This can't be happening.
Am I dreaming?
I must be dreaming.
Kelley Lynch (00:41):
Cindy, Cindy, wake up.
You're having a nightmare.
Cindy Sealls (00:46):
Kelley, what are you doing to my dreams?
Get out of here and you don'thave a mask on! You're going to
give me COVID.
Kelley Lynch (01:02):
Hi, I'm Cindy and I'm Kelly.
Welcome to season two of a newnormal and a series that we're
calling plan B like B E— whichis our new project this season
to be more of the change that welike to see in ourselves and in
the world.
I talked a lot more about thatin the trailer.
Cindy Sealls (01:24):
Since we're new to this, be the change stuff, we
figured we'd better get someadvice from a professional" be
the changer." Baratunde Thurstonis an Emmy nominated writer,
producer, comedian, podcaster,and activist.
He's worked for the satiricaldigital publication The Onion,
produced for The Daily Show,written a New York times
(01:45):
bestseller titled How to BeBlack and had over 4.5 million
views for his Ted talk.
His latest project is a podcastcalled How to Citizen with
Baratunde.
Baratunde, welcome to ourpodcast.
(02:05):
You and I go pretty far back.
You were a young'un back then,but still very mature.
I remember you were, you werejust such a mature young person
that you stood out.
I was telling Kelley about that.
I was like, yeah, man.
He used to come down to themiddle school office because he
was a little journalist backthen writing for the school
(02:26):
newspaper.
Baratunde Thurston (02:26):
That's a respectable way of referring to
a nosy child.
Cindy Sealls (02:33):
So what have you been doing since high school?
Baratunde Thurston (02:37):
Yeah.
You know, you're a trip--breathing, living, finding
myself, messing up a lot,learning in the process.
And in many ways, what I've beenup to since high school is
exactly what I was up to in highschool.
(02:58):
I'm writing, c hallengingauthority, b eing nosy, s
peaking my mind, p laying aroundon co mputers w ay too long.
My adult life was prototyped inhigh school.
Now I get to do it on a biggerstage and I have better control
(03:21):
of my voice.
So I think I'm better atwielding it and I've had more
practice, but ye ah, Sidwell waskind of a proving ground for the
rest of this arena I would beliving in.
Cindy Sealls (03:32):
Well, I'm so proud of you.
I just, I mean, I was tickledwhen I started seeing your name
around.
I was like, wow, that guy, heused to come down here with his
little notepad taking notes.
Baratunde Thurston (03:43):
I love that, so the thing about the notepad,
cause we can, we can broadenthis a little bit.
So I did do the studentnewspaper, Horizon.
When I first got a reporter'snotebook, it wasn't from
Sidwell.
It was from my older sister,Belinda, who was an actual
journalist and she just hadextras of these notebooks.
(04:04):
So when I started doing theHorizon, I had these real
reporters notebooks, likethey're long, spiral bound, top
folding, extra long notebooks,and you just look serious.
And I would use them fornon-journalistic things.
I remember rolling up into EarlHarrison's office, complaining
(04:26):
about something going on withrace on campus.
And I'm like, could you say thatagain?
And I'm just like writing itdown, like not in my capacity as
a journalist, but in my capacityas a little citizen.
And it just gave me a sense ofauthority to have that notebook.
I still have all of thenotebooks from high school.
(04:48):
And I've been wondering what todo with them before they
disintegrate.
Occasionally I'll pop one openand I'm like angry about some
meeting we just had.
So yeah, me and my notebook,that was quite a combination.
Cindy Sealls (05:02):
Yeah.
And you were pretty famous oncampus.
I must say you were prettypopular.
Baratunde Thurston (05:07):
First of all, when your name is Baratunde
, that helps a lot when there'slike a hundred kids per grade,
not hard to stand out when yougot a high top fade and, you
know, racquetball goggles forglasses.
I'm just saying I had a lotgoing for me.
I'm being a little humble here.
I also made it my mission toknow everybody's name.
(05:30):
I was basically campaigning, youknow, I think is, I've kind of
learned it.
It's a bit of a survivaltechnique.
Like the same thing in me thatmakes me walk my new
neighborhood every day,especially in the beginning to
get to know people and wave.
Uh, I think I first starteddoing that.
I said, well, it was the firstenvironment where I felt that
(05:52):
natural, you know, I'm like Igrew up in, uh, in black DC and
Brown, DC Sidwell was part ofwhite DC.
And that was new to me.
And so I remember playing thisgame.
It was like a challenge.
Don't remember the kids' namesanymore that I played it with,
but they found it kind ofremarkable slash funny that I
(06:12):
could remember people's names sowell, so they would test me.
Ooh, who's that?
And so we did like the wholeupper school and I wasn't, I
didn't hit everybody, buteverybody they pointed to, I
knew who it was.
Kelley Lynch (06:25):
You've got a Ted talk, you've got a best-selling
book.
So why this project?
Why a podcast and why now?
In the trailer you said that alot of the seeds of what you're
doing now were planted by yourmom.
Baratunde Thurston (06:34):
Yeah, my mother really was a serious
person and she had seriousexpectations.
She never used baby talk as faras I can remember.
She's like, you can speak thislanguage so keep up.
And for me and my older sister,Belinda, she wanted a lot for
us.
She, in most ways she did notapply specific pressure.
(06:57):
She wasn't like you have to be adoctor or do you have to go to
this school?
Or do you have to study thissubject or work in this field or
for this company?
She was like, you've gotta begood at something.
She really did encourage us tostand up for ourselves and to
challenge even authority.
In fact, there is a middleschool or upper school moment
(07:20):
from Sidwell where a teachergrabbed me by the wrist in some
way to indicate like, don't dothis or don't do that.
Or she had some disagreementwith what I had done and I had
not grabbed anybody, uh, mindyou.
So she escalated in, in mymother's view and she made it
clear, like no one has the rightto put their hands on you.
No one.
(07:41):
And this is not just a parenttalking to a child.
This is a person who is asurvivor of sexual abuse as a
child talking to her own child.
No one has a right to put theirhands on you.
If they do that, they've justgifted you their hand.
Like that's how she talked.
My mother made it clear to thatteacher.
You don't ever touch my sonagain.
(08:03):
And the fierceness, thepresumption of my innocence and
value was an early, earlylesson.
And so she demanded that of me.
And then in one veryhyper-specific case, she was
like, also, I need you to figureout the system of government
we're going to live under afterdemocracy and capitalism fail.
I was like, Oh, okay, just that?
(08:24):
Cool.
So I can do anything in thislife.
But also that specific thing issmall tasks and it's not like we
returned to it.
She didn't like check up on me,but it's not something I could
forget.
So when it came to my interestin the idea of citizenship, I
was sort of born into it.
My mom was very active inprotest and community work in
(08:46):
the church, churches in ourneighborhood.
And she had her own spiritualjourney that I witnessed that
opened my mind even beyond thedogma of a particular book.
And, uh, but this show comesfrom a seed planted long ago,
but also a kind of an urgencyright now.
(09:07):
And I have been trying to makelike right now is extended.
It's not, you know, fall 2020right now.
It's sort of contemporary thepast five, 10 years ish now.
I've attempted to make a versionof the show for a few years, all
trying to get at the samemoment, which is the news as I e
(09:31):
xperience it does not do aquality service.
It depresses it, enrages, itdistracts.
And in the simplest sense, itleaves me feeling worse at the
end of a dose then at thebeginning.
It is whatever the opposite ofmedicine is.
(09:52):
And I don't need some, you know,naive version of news where I
only hear happy tales, but Ithink the stories that we are
being fed and have been for solong, u m, do us an active
disservice and leave us feelingless empowered, pointing out all
(10:13):
the problems and nothing we cando about them.
That's not a service, u h, notanymore, not in these times.
So, that was the driving enginefor the idea of this show.
What if we shifted the focusaway from articulating the
problem, which so many people doso well in news and in comedy?
Which i s always a s line, I'vebeen straddling.
(10:36):
And focused i n on the peopleworking on those problems and
then give the audience somethingto do.
And I knew I suspected, but I'dsay stronger.
I knew I wasn't the only onethinking this or the people
working to make the show.
It wasn't like a small group offive people have faith in the
rest of us.
It's like, nah, there's a lotmore people who want to know
(10:58):
what's happening on thesechallenges and what they can do
to contribute.
And the banner citizen emergedas the label for this show.
And right now, right now, fall2020 right now, I need something
to hold on to.
Uh, we are in a sort of denialof service attack on our
(11:20):
sensibilities with the volumeand velocity of nonsense that's
being foisted on us by thecurrent administration.
And I say that actually not as apartisan statement though, I'm a
very partisan person.
You can objectively measure theamount of undermining of norms
(11:41):
and newsmaking and rule breaking.
And, uh, it moves too fast.
I can't just react to that.
So I wanted to find somethingdeeper for me that kept me in
this because otherwise it'slike, why bother?
And so for me to be able to talkto people who are not
theorizing.
These are not philosophers weare talking to on How to citizen
(12:03):
with Baratunde.
These are practitioners to talkto people who are making headway
and finding ways to shape ourworld to do what the news
implies.
We can't, that's the story thatI want to help tell that's why
now.
(12:35):
And then the other piece is youknow, we're doing this whole
thing in Zoom, like everything.
Zoom is holding our democracy,our fraying, fragile democracy
is being held together by theservers of Zoom.
And I'm grateful to them and alittle suspicious of why they
were so prepared, but we'vedecided to make the show with
(12:58):
people and to do it kind of likea live TV show taping, which was
the original version of the showas a TV show.
And so we do these live Zoomtapings with most of our guests
and an audience, and they get toask questions too.
And to see them build communityin the chat during the 90 minute
(13:20):
session and to put people inbreakout rooms and have them
Citizen together.
I mean, we, the pandemic hasallowed us to model what we're
talking about in a much moredistributed way.
And so we got people pop in fromMadison and Austin and Maine and
that would have been much moredifficult if we did it under
(13:42):
business as usual circumstances.
Cindy Sealls (13:45):
Wow.
I, would've never thought ofthat.
That the pandemic actually ishelping people work in community
together.
Baratunde Thurston (13:55):
When we started talking about making
this podcast with iHeart whowe're making the show with, I
was like, I really want tocreate a situation where I can,
I have, uh, I can get a goodmicrophone.
You don't have this audiorecorder.
I should, I should be able torecord at least my, my
voiceovers from home.
But the plan was like, I'm goingto go into the studio in
Hollywood and they're going tobook the guests and we're going
(14:16):
to go through security and we'regoing to do all this...
and then once, you know, thepandemic started to hit, I had
already started building out thestudio.
And so I was actually more readyfor this.
And I knew what Zoom was becauseI interact with the corporate
world, way more than anyoneshould.
So it actually, it could havebeen a severe disadvantage, but
(14:36):
it ended up working out.
Cindy Sealls (14:46):
My next question is about what's going on in our
environment currently.
This whole idea about division,you know, these, there are these
two very different sides in ourcountry right now.
And we talk often about how inthe world can we work together?
(15:10):
How do citizens in a countrywork together?
Because that's what ourdemocracy is about, right?
It's about us working togetherto make this a place where we
all can live together, you know,not perfectly, but everybody has
their rights.
So how did you know in thissituation that we're going
(15:31):
through right now where, I mean,people are angry with the other
side.
I mean, you can't even talk topeople.
I mean, if you say Biden, Imean, you'll get slapped.
If you say Trump you'll getslapped.
How do we as citizens get pastthat?
Baratunde Thurston (15:50):
Yeah.
Uh, thanks for the easyquestion.
Love it.
We've explored versions of thisin the show.
And so I want to give somecredit to a few of our guests
who have even better answersthan I do.
Valerie Kauer is a spiritualleader, a civil rights activist,
(16:12):
a writer, and an author of abook called See No Stranger.
And, I knew I wanted to kick ourseries off with Valerie.
It was, it was an epiphanymoment, which is not usually how
ideas occur in me, but Valeriesaid in a very famous line of a
poem that she delivered inDecember, 2016 referring to the
(16:36):
election results that stunned somany.
"What if this is not thedarkness of the tomb, but the
darkness of the womb?
What if our nation is not dying,but just being born again.
And birth is messy and it's darkand it's scary, it's loud, but
on the other end is new life."That's a paraphrasing, she did a
(17:00):
better job, but I think you getthe, just the spirit of it.
And I was like, I want Valerieto be the spiritual invocation
of the project of How to Citizenand her book is about
revolutionary love and See NoStranger, the title of it comes
down to this idea from herfaith, but applies to the faith
in democracy as well that astranger is just a part of me I
(17:22):
do not yet know.
And that our mission is to dothe revolutionary love thing to
citizen through revolutionarylove is to love ourselves, to
love others and even to love ouropponents, don't call them
enemies.
Enemies is a more permanentstatus.
Opponents is dynamic.
It can shift and change, and itdoesn't mean ignoring the
(17:44):
offenses or caving in on yourvalues, but it means seeing the
human in them and not themonster that they might appear
to be.
Valerie also said, there's nosuch thing as monsters in this
world, there are just woundedpeople who are manifesting their
insecurities in some way.
And when they align themselveswith depression, they chip away
(18:08):
at their own humanity too, andtheir own ability to love.
And so we don't want to do that.
So I think it's important.
That's not exactly actionable,but I think it's o riented to
the project.
(18:31):
I was not interested in making ashow where like, I sit down with
an avowed white supremacist,white nationalist, or Klansmen
on a regular basis to kind ofprove that we can all come
together.
That's not my purpose in thislife.
But I do think we need to allbelieve in a venue where we can
(18:53):
contend over how our societyworks.
And we've got this democracything, which means people power.
And that brings me to like oursecond guest, this guy, Eric
Liu, who really says, like, whenwe contend over power, that's
called politics.
That's the word we give it.
And we have to be cool with theidea of power and wrestling with
(19:14):
it and understanding it as partof our mission and our role as
citizens.
So what doesn't mean, to be acitizen doesn't require that we
all agree with each other onevery issue, but it does require
that we agree to have faithenough in each other to argue
(19:34):
and to wrestle over control andpower in some acceptable ways.
And so I'm about that.
And I think our show is aboutthat and so how do we do that in
an era of like peak division andanger?
We start.
You know, it's taken us a whileto build to this existing fever
(19:58):
pitch of massive amounts ofdistrust.
It's taken a heavy investment totry to de- legitimize some of
our established venues fordemocracy, whether they be
courts, whether they be themedia, whether they be the right
to assembly, that all are beingchallenged.
Uh, but some of us havecontributed more than others to
the divide we're living in.
(20:26):
So we get oriented to the ideaof what this project is.
We understand our power.
We make space.
And then what does it look like?
So there's a third example.
I'll offer up.
We just taped this episode witha modern, small D democratic
hero.
She's an artist out of Chicago,Tonika Johnson.
(20:48):
She's created something calledThe Folded Map Project.
And she has taken on thechallenge of the legacy of red
lining and what it's done todivide the city of Chicago, but
used its grid layout, the gridthat maps the city itself, where
there is a North version of anaddress and a South version of
an address.
(21:09):
And we all know South side ofChicago, black people, you think
poverty, you think crime and allof these images that the media
has painted.
Also beauty.
Also Michelle Obama's home.
You know, it's like a lot ofgood stuff there, but the North
side has a lot more resourcesthan the South side.
So she folded the map andstarted photographing
(21:30):
corresponding homes on eitherside of that folded line.
And then she went a step furtherand met the residents of each.
And then she went a step furtherand had them meet each other and
create a dialogue and then visiteach other's neighborhoods, not
as tourist or as charity acts,but to live.
Gave them assignments.
(21:52):
So now I'm spoiling my ownepisode.
It's gonna be a dope one.
But that's practicingcitizenship.
That is as Tonika puts it, FindYour Fold and explore the other
side as a human, not as a set oftalking points, you know?
And I think the example you use, if you say the word Biden,
okay.
Yeah.
(22:12):
That's in an election seasonduring most divisive period that
we've had since our civil war and a non hyperbolic statement.
That's probably really true.
The B iden's like, u h, atriggering term for some people
in the country.
U h, but there are other termsof engagement that we could use,
and it's not going to get easierin the election season, but
(22:34):
there will be a season afterthis and we need to find those
venues again to argue and fightpeacefully over power.
(22:59):
Yeah.
So I think, you know, I want tomake this point about the folks
planning to take up arms aroundthis election.
And, and when people say likewe're more divided than any time
since the civil war, it's likepresidential historians saying
that who actually understandwhat that means.
It's not just left or rightpundits.
It's, I think, it's a fact.
(23:21):
And we have a president whostokes that and unlike most
other, maybe any otherpresidents encourages citizens
to use violence.
When it comes from the very toplike that, that's a different
sort of challenge.
So if you're out here talkingabout taking up arms, c ause you
(23:44):
don't like the results, anelection, that does not make you
a Patriot.
There's not a patriotic act i na democracy to resort to a gun
because you don't like anelection result.
If you're a Patriot, if youbelieve in the American project,
then you fight in the nextelection.
(24:06):
That's literally how we set thisup.
And those founding fathers, whoyou say you adore, offered us
that as the way we fight.
So to pick up a gun reveals notyour defense of the
constitution, but y ourundermining of it.
It's very, un-American.
(24:27):
Let them defend how it'sactually American to not believe
in America, to not believe inAmerican democracy.
It just strikes me as a blackperson that we never get this.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, like we never get to dothis.
(24:48):
We never get to do this.
One group of Americans gets tomarch with guns in the streets
during a pandemic.
And they block access to thestate Capitol and spit in the
faces of law enforcement, whothey say they love During a
respiratorily transmitteddisease, spitting in the faces
of law enforcement and thegovernment responds with a bunch
(25:09):
of nothing.
And then another group ofAmerican, not just black people,
the whole coalition who valueblack people though take to the
streets with no guns and get metby the very men with guns whose
behavior they're protesting.
And there's no N95 masks forhealthcare workers, but there's
plenty of gas masks for riotpolice.
And there's no face shields forfrontline workers, but there's
(25:30):
plenty of riot shields.
So we demonstrate ourpriorities.
And so I would love, you know,in a more challenging way in a
less gentle way, but still witha loving spirit and say, did you
take up arms for any of theseblack people who were gunned
down in their homes, on ourstreets?
Where were you?
Why do you choose to act overhere, but not over there?
(25:52):
And ask what's different?
Don't tell them that they'rewrong.
Ask them the question.
Eric Liu in our show has sometips for engaging with people
who we disagree with.
Questions work better than whitepapers and fact piles and
talking points.
And one of the questions Ericsuggests is to ask someone, what
(26:15):
are you afraid is going tohappen?
What happens if your side loses?
And force them to paint thatpicture and get real about
personal fear?
And then they're going to dothis over.
No, no, no, no, no.
What are you afraid of?
What's going to happen to you?
Are you going to have less powerin your job?
Are you gonna make less money?
Are you going to get deported?
(26:36):
Are you going to lose your home?
Like, what do you specificallythink is bad that's coming to
you?
And then engage with that fearat that emotional level.
And you can maybe start tocounter the talking point of
socialism or whatever the redherring is or"black lives matter
is terrorist." Cause that's notgood.
Kelley Lynch (26:57):
In your show you talk a lot about the word
citizen as a verb.
And I wondered if you had some,you know, maybe there's some
(27:20):
practical steps that you couldthink of that we can take to
channel this kind of messy,fear-filled chaotic thing that's
going on into something that'smore useful for us moving
forward?
Baratunde Thurston (27:38):
On citizen as a verb, our show, we decided
to like make it harder than itnecessary.
We could, like, I could havejust sat down with some people,
had some conversations, call ita day.
But again, in part, thanks to myexecutive producer and life
partner, Elizabeth, we have likea framework and beliefs and
(27:59):
it's, it's like almost like alittle constitution.
But one of the things we had toget straight is like, what do we
believe it means to citizen?
And so we came up with thesefour pillars influenced heavily
by our first two guests, ValerieKaur and Eric Liu from citizen
university, is this, to citizenis to show up and participate.
(28:23):
It's a very simple thing, butit's an under marketed act, you
know?
Cause a lot of the times we hearvote, contact your reps, maybe
follow the news.
It's either passive, right?
Follow the news or it'sdelagatory, right.
Delegate your power to somebodyelse to exercise it for you.
(28:44):
Vote for this other person towield your power on your behalf.
And that's part of it.
But it's so much more than that.
With Valerie, it was reallylearning that the second pillar
is about being in relationship;that we have to invest in
relationships with each other.
And that goes counter to a hypercapitalist and individualistic
(29:07):
message, as absurd as our armedservices, which for a while,
pedaled the idea of an army ofone, which ain't an army, that's
just a dude with a gun.
Like that's not how this works.
Uh, an army of one's not goingto do very much to protect the
collective.
Uh, so we invest inrelationships and we build in
(29:29):
our relationship with each otherand recognize that we are
dependent on each other.
That's really important.
Third is from Eric Liu, we haveto understand power.
It's our job to understandpower, not shy away from it, not
be afraid of it, which is alsokind of a male powers is dirty
(29:49):
thing I don't want to, I don'twant to claim it.
No, no.
Get to keep me away from it'slike kryptonite.
No, no, no, no.
It's Popeye spinach.
You know, we need that.
And there are many differenttypes as money.
There's power in sharing ideas.
There's, there's power inphysical gathering.
You know, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to wield it an
power is always moving.
As I said before.
And the last is that we do allof this for the benefit of the
(30:13):
many and not just the few.
And again, this goes so much ofwhat we've done in our country
and the West largely over thepast 40 50 years is we've
undermined all of those pillars.
We've said to the extent thatyou're active, just make it an
economic activity.
(30:33):
Buy stuff.
To the extent that you relate toanyone it's yourself.
It's the army of one.
It's the brand, You.
It's"you do you." It's all ofthis reinforcement that we're
alone.
That is not true.
And so we have to practice allthese things cause we're out of
practice.
So to citizen, practice showingup, talk to a neighbor, connect
(31:00):
to a civic meeting, join a club.
You know, we give assignmentsand every show Eric's just like,
start a club.
It doesn't have to be a civicclub.
It could be a bowling club or aVR bowling club or whatever,
just start a club.
Because you have to practicedisagreeing with other people
and negotiating rules andconsequences for disappointment.
(31:21):
And we don't have a lot ofpractice at that.
That's a very practical thing—building these muscles that,
it's not just that they'veatrophied it's, that it has
served a few of us to encouragethe atrophy at the expense of
the many of us.
(31:42):
And that is a message thatshould resonate with a
conservative and a liberal.
There's different angles intothis.
And then we meet in the arenaand we have tools and language
to duke it out through all thesedifferent flavors of power and
(32:03):
different institutions thatwe've built.
So what I want people to do,what I think they could do.
I think Eric's advice is great.
I think start something—startanything.
(32:30):
I think because we're in apandemic, I will also echo
another call to action from oneof our shows, which is find an
effort very local to you that isproviding any kind of relief or
support with this pandemic.
What we lack in federalleadership around this thing we
have in abundance on the ground.
(32:51):
And you may already be a part ofit.
If not, I guarantee you,somebody is doing something
within a half mile of you and wecan use the Facebook and the
Twitter and the Instagram andNext Door.
Somebody is up to something,find them and ask, how can I
help?
(33:12):
Don't ask about partyaffiliation.
Don't ask who you're voting for.
This is not about that.
Ask how can I help?
And in the process of helping,maybe it's with World Central
Kitchen doing some pop-up mealdelivery, maybe you're
distributing masks to people whowork in jails and prisons.
The good news, there is plentyof work to go around.
(33:35):
So we don't need you to doeverything.
We need everybody to dosomething and find your thing.
And to the extent that it alignswith something you're passionate
about or competent at all thebetter.
What are you good at?
What are you interested ingetting good at?
And take some of that energythat's going into and dissecting
(33:58):
and what if and the scenariosand the election.
Cool.
I understand the rabbit hole,addictive nature of a good
YouTube recommended place, butthat is all taking away from the
community you could be helpingto build.
(34:19):
So take those minutes, takethose hours and invest them in
we, not just me.
So that's it.
I hope that some of that'shelpful.
Um, and we've got a pile—that'sthe beauty of the construct of
the show—If you go tohowtocitizen.com and we have a
library of specific actions thatyou can do and, and they are
(34:41):
external focused.
There are a lot of the types ofthings I just described.
But because of Elizabeth'sinvolvement, there's also a lot
of internal focus things Iwouldn't have seen.
You know, we asked people in arecent episode, write down
everything you've done since thebeginning of this pandemic to
help anyone other than yourself.
(35:03):
It could have been, you donatedonline to the Red Cross.
It could have been, you checkedin with a neighbor to see if
they needed some groceries,cause you were going and didn't
want to add more people or spendthe fuel money.
Whatever your incentive was, youhelped somebody else.
And I look at that list andcelebrate yourself and your
participation in yourcontribution to this thing.
(35:27):
You were citizening that's it.
And then think about what elseyou could do.
Cindy Sealls (35:33):
I love that word.
You were citizening.
We can give trophies.
You're the best citizen ever
Kelley Lynch (35:41):
That's a real trophy for participation, right?
Baratunde Thurston (35:43):
That's right.
It's a literal participationtrophy.
Cindy Sealls (35:46):
I love how you talk about, um, that you don't
have to agree that.
I think that's the problemnowadays.
If we find somebody doesn'tagree with us it's as if w e
just shut them off.
Yeah.
Okay.
W ow.
I don't want to talk to thatperson.
I'm not talking to them, butyou're right.
You know, just in any, any partof life you get together and you
g ot t o work stuff out and youknow, even t wo people who live
(36:09):
together in a marriage don'tagree on everything.
T hey k ind o f work it out.
Tell me about it.
Now t here's g otta be some backand forth a bit there.
U m, and I think these days wefind out a person is thought
this they're done.
We cancel them.
Baratunde Thurston (36:24):
It's harsh, it's harsh.
And I think that if we try toown this term relationship and
what you just described, Cindy,about being in a marriage, you
know, if we applied rules to ourmarriage, the way we do to our
politics, like not just ourmarriage with our families,
(36:44):
every family structure wouldinstantly disintegrate.
Okay.
So you don't agree with yourmother.
So you're never going to talk toher again.
She's just wrong on everythingnow and nothing she's ever done
counts for anything.
And this moment, really, maybeyou lose this round.
Maybe you compromise.
Maybe you agree to disagree andyou move on and argue about
(37:05):
something different or you comeback to it.
And again, I think there arelevels to disagreement.
I will never agree that it isacceptable to kidnap children in
my name, through a federalgovernment law enforcement
apparatus, and then tointentionally destroy records so
(37:26):
that you cannot reconnect thesechildren with their families.
I consider that a human rightsviolation, right?
I'm not going to agree that no,it's actually a great thing.
So, so then what do I do withthat?
I fight.
I use my power.
I vote.
I lobby.
I write letters.
(37:48):
I rally.
I spread ideas.
I write speeches.
I tweet, I argue, I question, Iinterrogate.
I demand.
I spend money to try to make mybelief that this is wrong
prevail so that it does notcontinue.
And if you want to take theopposite view and invest all
(38:09):
those resources in the opposite,you have that, right.
You can lobby for mass childkidnapping and records of
destruction.
I think that's a weird battle topick.
I think it's a weird Hill to tryto die on, but you know, that's
you have that right?
As long as we agree that theterms are okay, then the best
(38:34):
side should win over time.
And if not, that's part of ittoo, but this absolutest thing
doesn't serve anyone.
That's authoritarianism.
It's not democracy anymore I'mexhausted from arguing over the
(39:04):
basics.
I don't want to argue over theexistence of the postal service.
So now, so now you're going toforce me to argue that I, that I
shouldn't trust the mail.
That's a different, that's notan argument within a democracy.
That's an argument againstdemocracy.
(39:25):
And that I won't, I will not saythat's as legitimate.
There are folks who are arguingfor a different system in our
society.
One that is just one guy, getswhat he wants.
And that's literally what weestablished this nation to
oppose.
(39:47):
So no, no.
We have to remember ourselves.
We actually have to read thosedocuments again.
And so when it comes to thatkind of disagreement, Cindy, I
don't think it's the same.
I look forward to a disagreementover tax policy.
That'd be so much fun to argueabout marginal tax rate again,
you have no idea.
I look forward to that as muchas I look forward to being in a
(40:08):
crowd again, maybe we could doat the same time, I can go to a
rave slash bar slash nightclubslash political festival slash
tax policy debate all at thesame time, when we successfully
defeat this virus.
Cindy Sealls (40:21):
I think that's what everybody's going to do.
Like there'll be so pent up, doit all at the same time,
everything will happen in waves.
They have their papers, bringtheir drinks, bring your sports
equipment.
Baratunde Thurston (40:35):
Also be karaoke.
Cindy Sealls (40:39):
It could be like the Sidwell Gogo.
Did you ever have those?
Oh, did they have I, I ran likeone of those ones.
Oh my God.
That was the president of ourblack student union for a few
years.
And talk about sweaty overseethose citywide dances that took
place, uh, at the SidwellFriends school.
(41:01):
Very odd scene.
Very odd.
Baratunde Thurston (41:03):
I think I have two more thoughts.
I, one leave you with one, uh,is about, um, like I am learning
a lot and I think I keep havingto remind myself that I don't
know everything and that I'mlearning.
And you know, this show ishelping with the humility
(41:23):
because we're bringing people inwho are, who have done the
things in their area.
And I'm like, I never thought ofthat.
And I'm seeing responses folksand, or even hearing their
challenges.
And so it's, it also humbles mystridency about how maybe easy
this might be.
It's not, and it's a hard andit's painful and it's hurtful.
(41:44):
And that's a part of it too.
This isn't just like a funexercise.
We do this and it hurts and itstings and we cry and we scream
and that's a part of it.
That's a part of anyrelationship we have to deem the
relationship worth it.
(42:05):
When we deem it worth it, thenwe tolerate those things and we
can have a fight with ourpartner and go to bed with them
and wake up the next morning andmake a meal.
And we can have a fight with ourchild and we still love them and
we still support them.
And we still want the best forthem.
We are in relationship with eachother.
(42:26):
That is it just, I, I didn'twalk into the show knowing that
it's not like, Oh, I will.
For the past 42 years, I've beencoming up with the theory.
No I'm learning.
And I'm just like learning withthe listener and sharing that.
So I really appreciate thisopportunity, like a lot.
And Cindy you brought me backwith the Sidwell connection in a
way that was far deeper than anyof this, like typical, let's
(42:49):
talk about your podcastconversation.
Um, the last piece I said therewere two was teenagers kids.
If you're looking for a reminderthat this is worth it, that we
have a chance that things couldget better look to our young
(43:10):
people, but not in the typicalway.
The typical way that we look atyoung people as like you're
going to save us, right?
That's what every commencementspeech comes down to.
Y'all gonna clean up my mess,right?
Cause I contributed so much tothis jacked up world and nearly
destroyed our only livableplanet, but I believe in you.
That is that's the worst.
(43:31):
I think I would, I really wantsomebody to have me do a
commencement speech because itwill be not that.
That is, that is telling a childto clean up their room and your
room.
Bad.
When I say look to the yearyoung people, it's, it's not as
an outsourcing opportunity.
It is to remember whatimagination looks like; to
(43:59):
remember what challengingauthority looks like, b ecause
they are less steeped in ournonsense.
And they can say that doesn'tmake any sense.
And they're probably right.
And we wrestle with their ideastoo.
And they push us, let them pushus and let's help them help us
(44:22):
to be better.
And I've seen things from theseyoung folk and it's just t he
restored me.
We had a group p hone c alledCivics unplugged.
They have a plan For 2030.
I'm l ike, O h, somebody doesgreat.
It's not coming from Ted Cruz.
I knew that, but I, that's notenough.
It's not enough to not havefaith in some part of the
(44:47):
system.
W e have to have sources offaith too.
And I think t hat's source offaith is us.
Baratunde Thursto (44:58):
All right, that's it.
I could preach for a thousandyears.
I will not.
Thank you so much for having me.
Cindy Sealls (45:02):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
And um, you know, I'm just soproud of what you've done and I
mean, I must admit as a, as anAfrican-American, it just makes
me happy that you were able tojust find your way in the world
and do what you're doing, whichis helping pull other people
through, you know, which is whatit's all about.
Kelley Lynch (45:36):
Hey Tanvir, great to see you.
Hi, Tanvir it's been awhile.
It has.
So finally, we're back with this, uh, new season thing.
I think we could talk about whatwe heard in the episode and what
we plan to do about it.
(45:56):
I mean, because this whole thingis about actually taking some
action, not just talking.
So what do you think
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (46:06):
To take responsibility for our actions
or to some extent, uh, ourinteractions.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Exactly.
So what are you going to do?
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (46:15):
I started as a member of a photography
society.
And then after a couple ofyears, I left the society
complaining that people aretalking about everything else,
then photography itself.
So I got fade up and left andnow I come to realize that was a
mistake.
(46:35):
You know, like it was, uh, amongeverybody else.
It was also my duty to keep iton the right track.
So I actually have gone back tothe society and I'm actively
participating in the meetingsand in the discussions, it's not
a huge thing, but it's a start,I guess it's like I said, just
(47:00):
start something.
We cannot control everything.
I cannot change the countrypolitics, or I cannot change the
word politics, but at leastwithin my sphere, if I act that
can have ripple effect andthat's what I'm counting on.
Kelley Lynch (47:19):
So Cindy, you want to talk about what we're going
to do well, yeah, and I think alot of what we're going to do
ties right into what Tanvir issaying.
Cindy Sealls (47:30):
So what we're planning to do is engage in
conversations with people whohave very different views than
we do.
Um, and we want it to be a civilconversation.
We're not, we won't be trying toget them to come to our opinion.
We just want to hear what theyhave to say and listen, and be
(47:51):
really open to what theirviewpoints are without trying to
argue them down.
Kelley Lynch (47:58):
And we're going to start close to home.
We're going to work with peoplewho, who we know actually like
us and care about us, but havevery different viewpoints.
And there's kind of a range ofviewpoints in this small group
that we've put together andwe're going to meet every
Saturday and we're going to talkfor an hour or two and try and
(48:22):
come to it with curiosity.
You have your own Saturday club.
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (48:27):
That was my idea.
I have my Saturday club.
Kelley Lynch (48:30):
Exactly.
You know, I think we've talkedabout it before.
I don't think it's been on thepodcast before, but are you
going to introduce any of thisat your own Saturday club?
Or is that something that youalready do?
I already do that we alreadyhave a Saturday club and we've
been, uh, sitting for more thana yeah.
(48:52):
It's about one and a half yearold club.
It's basically a small tightlyknit group with different
diverse opinion.
And we talk about our interestsranging from politics to boats,
to cars, to anything andeverything.
And we have a different opinionthat at the end, end of the
(49:13):
discussion become out a moreknowledgeable level, certain
things.
And the best part is like, itrefreshes us for the whole week
because there is no winner.
There is no debate it'sdiscussion.
Speaker 4 (49:30):
And the whole idea is to learn from each other.
So we, we have completelyopposite, uh, ideas about a lot
of things.
A lot of issues, like one of myreally good friend, very good
friend is Andy climate change.
He doesn't believe in climatechange.
And I, with my experience inplanet projects, I'm a strong
(49:55):
believer of that.
So we stand in the opposite boat, but still we never fight about
it.
We present our own findings andtry to learn from each other.
Kelley Lynch (50:05):
You kind of set these ground rules at the
beginning, or it evolved.
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (50:10):
The only rule that we have is like at the
end of the discussion, we willnot have any hard feelings.
And how do you ensure that thathappens if you respect each
other?
It happens automatically.
Everybody else in the room hastheir own way of seeing things
(50:31):
and they have their knowledgepool as well.
So you're there to share andlearn.
Kelley Lynch (50:38):
What would you say have been the benefits of that
for you?
A it's refreshing, I'm talkingto a group of people who share
similar kind of views inopposite views maybe, but at the
same plane intellectually, thisis stimulating.
And also it's informative aswell.
(50:59):
I learned a lot of things thatnew things that I did not know.
And also there's topics that Ihad zero interest.
I grew interest on that.
So it's a learning experience aswell as it gives you practical
information that you did notknow, certain things work that
(51:22):
way, it opens up your mind andyou start to see a different
perspective.
It's like, you know, the feelingthat when in the same place, 10
photographers go, they had comeout with 10 different
photograph.
You know, sometimes it'scompletely opposite than each
other.
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (51:40):
And that if you look at them side by
side, you realize there are somany different perspective and
so many different ways to seeit.
Kelley Lynch (51:52):
Absolutely.
Cindy Sealls (51:54):
I was thinking about, you know, why it's so
hard to discuss some things, forinstance, uh, I, unfortunately I
tie everything to sports, but Iwas thinking about how, when
people discuss sports, they'revery knowledgeable about their
particular sport that they'reinterested in, but there's
always, and I'll say debates insports about different
(52:16):
individuals.
About who's the best pitcher whowas the best hockey player.
And people will discuss this forhours and there might be yelling
and hollering and screaming, butnobody leaves that discussion or
debate hating that other person.
You know, I think what thedifference is in those kinds of
(52:37):
arguments, debates discussions,and sort of the moral
discussions.
And I heard that on, the hiddenbrain podcast episode called
moral combat, where once aperson feels it's a moral issue,
it's almost kind of a life ordeath thing.
(52:59):
And, and there's a bit more of,I do not even like you, if you
don't agree with me on thisissue.
And so that's what we have tofigure out how to navigate.
Kelley Lynch (53:12):
I think it's great.
We're doing this all togetherbecause then we can kind of hold
each other accountable and shareour experiences.
I mean, just hearing about moreabout your project makes me
think that would be reallyawesome to have other people on
who are doing little projectsand talk to them about things
that they do that help theircommunity.
(53:34):
I mean, like I can think of ourguy who always goes around on
trash day and he putseverybody's garbage cans back.
And he's done it for years.
There's another mother that wemet who has a disabled child and
she decided that she was goingto run for the school board and
she's never run for anything.
So there's a whole bunch ofpeople out there who are doing
(53:57):
things.
And I think it would be reallycool to feature some of those
stories and hear from them aboutwhat they're doing.
Cause I think, you know, onceyou start talking about these
things, you start to see, Oh,Hey, I could do that.
That could be fun.
Kelly & Cindy (54:27):
You're not going to believe this last night in
the middle of the night.
Oh, we swear.
I heard, I know what you'regoing to say.
What did you hear gunshots?
Well, I don't know what it was.
I just heard this pop pop hop.
Yeah.
I looked and I got up, it wastwo 39.
Right,
Cindy Sealls (54:46):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Cause I, I, I was in the middleof a dream and there was kind of
not violence, but there wasstuff going on in the dream
where people were tussling.
And then I heard that and I, andI was like, wait, what, what was
that?
And I saw, I jumped out of thebed and I see that the lights
(55:07):
on, I run down.
Um, cause I know Stephen's stillin the basement playing video
games.
So I'm like, well, maybe thatwas, was that from that?
So I'm like, Stephen, did youhear anything?
He was like, no.
And so I thought, since Stephenhadn't heard it, I thought it
was part of the dream.
And then I was thinking, Oh man,recording that thing.
And now I'm all screwed up.
(55:29):
Like I can't tell what's realand what's not,
Kelley Lynch (55:33):
But that's our lives now, anyway.
Hey, we're so glad you'velistened this far.
And I just wanted to tell youthat we've now got a website, a
new normalpodcast.com.
(55:54):
That'll be our one-stop shop foreverything to do with the
podcast.
That's where you can subscribe.
You can contact us, you can readreviews, rate the show.
You can learn more about us andsubscribe to our newsletter.
That's also where you'll findthe transcripts and you'll find
show notes with informationabout all of the things that
(56:17):
we've mentioned in the podcast.
Like the podcast Cindy wastalking about today and some
other information on starting aconversation group of your own
from the national conversationproject and some other resources
that we're going to use as westart our project.
And perhaps most of all, wewould really love to hear from
(56:39):
you.
If you've got your own storyabout somebody that is doing
something in your community, ormaybe that somebody is you, our
plan is to feature the storiesof those people who are already
being the change that they wantto see in their own backyard.
So if you're interested insharing your story and being on
(57:01):
the podcast, please be sure toget in touch.
We'd love to hear from you.
We'll see you next week.
Bye.
Wait, wait, what was that?
What was that?
Was that a gun?
Oh my God.
Wait.
No, this is not the civil warcannot be the civil war.
This can't be happening.
Am I dreaming?
I must be dreaming.
Kelley Lynch (00:41):
Cindy, Cindy, wake up.
You're having a nightmare.
Cindy Sealls (00:46):
Kelley, what are you doing to my dreams?
Get out of here and you don'thave a mask on! You're going to
give me COVID.
Kelley Lynch (01:02):
Hi, I'm Cindy and I'm Kelly.
Welcome to season two of a newnormal and a series that we're
calling plan B like B E— whichis our new project this season
to be more of the change that welike to see in ourselves and in
the world.
I talked a lot more about thatin the trailer.
Cindy Sealls (01:24):
Since we're new to this, be the change stuff, we
figured we'd better get someadvice from a professional" be
the changer." Baratunde Thurstonis an Emmy nominated writer,
producer, comedian, podcaster,and activist.
He's worked for the satiricaldigital publication The Onion,
produced for The Daily Show,written a New York times
(01:45):
bestseller titled How to BeBlack and had over 4.5 million
views for his Ted talk.
His latest project is a podcastcalled How to Citizen with
Baratunde.
Baratunde, welcome to ourpodcast.
(02:05):
You and I go pretty far back.
You were a young'un back then,but still very mature.
I remember you were, you werejust such a mature young person
that you stood out.
I was telling Kelley about that.
I was like, yeah, man.
He used to come down to themiddle school office because he
was a little journalist backthen writing for the school
(02:26):
newspaper.
Baratunde Thurston (02:26):
That's a respectable way of referring to
a nosy child.
Cindy Sealls (02:33):
So what have you been doing since high school?
Baratunde Thurston (02:37):
Yeah.
You know, you're a trip--breathing, living, finding
myself, messing up a lot,learning in the process.
And in many ways, what I've beenup to since high school is
exactly what I was up to in highschool.
(02:58):
I'm writing, c hallengingauthority, b eing nosy, s
peaking my mind, p laying aroundon co mputers w ay too long.
My adult life was prototyped inhigh school.
Now I get to do it on a biggerstage and I have better control
(03:21):
of my voice.
So I think I'm better atwielding it and I've had more
practice, but ye ah, Sidwell waskind of a proving ground for the
rest of this arena I would beliving in.
Cindy Sealls (03:32):
Well, I'm so proud of you.
I just, I mean, I was tickledwhen I started seeing your name
around.
I was like, wow, that guy, heused to come down here with his
little notepad taking notes.
Baratunde Thurston (03:43):
I love that, so the thing about the notepad,
cause we can, we can broadenthis a little bit.
So I did do the studentnewspaper, Horizon.
When I first got a reporter'snotebook, it wasn't from
Sidwell.
It was from my older sister,Belinda, who was an actual
journalist and she just hadextras of these notebooks.
(04:04):
So when I started doing theHorizon, I had these real
reporters notebooks, likethey're long, spiral bound, top
folding, extra long notebooks,and you just look serious.
And I would use them fornon-journalistic things.
I remember rolling up into EarlHarrison's office, complaining
(04:26):
about something going on withrace on campus.
And I'm like, could you say thatagain?
And I'm just like writing itdown, like not in my capacity as
a journalist, but in my capacityas a little citizen.
And it just gave me a sense ofauthority to have that notebook.
I still have all of thenotebooks from high school.
(04:48):
And I've been wondering what todo with them before they
disintegrate.
Occasionally I'll pop one openand I'm like angry about some
meeting we just had.
So yeah, me and my notebook,that was quite a combination.
Cindy Sealls (05:02):
Yeah.
And you were pretty famous oncampus.
I must say you were prettypopular.
Baratunde Thurston (05:07):
First of all, when your name is Baratunde
, that helps a lot when there'slike a hundred kids per grade,
not hard to stand out when yougot a high top fade and, you
know, racquetball goggles forglasses.
I'm just saying I had a lotgoing for me.
I'm being a little humble here.
I also made it my mission toknow everybody's name.
(05:30):
I was basically campaigning, youknow, I think is, I've kind of
learned it.
It's a bit of a survivaltechnique.
Like the same thing in me thatmakes me walk my new
neighborhood every day,especially in the beginning to
get to know people and wave.
Uh, I think I first starteddoing that.
I said, well, it was the firstenvironment where I felt that
(05:52):
natural, you know, I'm like Igrew up in, uh, in black DC and
Brown, DC Sidwell was part ofwhite DC.
And that was new to me.
And so I remember playing thisgame.
It was like a challenge.
Don't remember the kids' namesanymore that I played it with,
but they found it kind ofremarkable slash funny that I
(06:12):
could remember people's names sowell, so they would test me.
Ooh, who's that?
And so we did like the wholeupper school and I wasn't, I
didn't hit everybody, buteverybody they pointed to, I
knew who it was.
Kelley Lynch (06:25):
You've got a Ted talk, you've got a best-selling
book.
So why this project?
Why a podcast and why now?
In the trailer you said that alot of the seeds of what you're
doing now were planted by yourmom.
Baratunde Thurston (06:34):
Yeah, my mother really was a serious
person and she had seriousexpectations.
She never used baby talk as faras I can remember.
She's like, you can speak thislanguage so keep up.
And for me and my older sister,Belinda, she wanted a lot for
us.
She, in most ways she did notapply specific pressure.
(06:57):
She wasn't like you have to be adoctor or do you have to go to
this school?
Or do you have to study thissubject or work in this field or
for this company?
She was like, you've gotta begood at something.
She really did encourage us tostand up for ourselves and to
challenge even authority.
In fact, there is a middleschool or upper school moment
(07:20):
from Sidwell where a teachergrabbed me by the wrist in some
way to indicate like, don't dothis or don't do that.
Or she had some disagreementwith what I had done and I had
not grabbed anybody, uh, mindyou.
So she escalated in, in mymother's view and she made it
clear, like no one has the rightto put their hands on you.
No one.
(07:41):
And this is not just a parenttalking to a child.
This is a person who is asurvivor of sexual abuse as a
child talking to her own child.
No one has a right to put theirhands on you.
If they do that, they've justgifted you their hand.
Like that's how she talked.
My mother made it clear to thatteacher.
You don't ever touch my sonagain.
(08:03):
And the fierceness, thepresumption of my innocence and
value was an early, earlylesson.
And so she demanded that of me.
And then in one veryhyper-specific case, she was
like, also, I need you to figureout the system of government
we're going to live under afterdemocracy and capitalism fail.
I was like, Oh, okay, just that?
(08:24):
Cool.
So I can do anything in thislife.
But also that specific thing issmall tasks and it's not like we
returned to it.
She didn't like check up on me,but it's not something I could
forget.
So when it came to my interestin the idea of citizenship, I
was sort of born into it.
My mom was very active inprotest and community work in
(08:46):
the church, churches in ourneighborhood.
And she had her own spiritualjourney that I witnessed that
opened my mind even beyond thedogma of a particular book.
And, uh, but this show comesfrom a seed planted long ago,
but also a kind of an urgencyright now.
(09:07):
And I have been trying to makelike right now is extended.
It's not, you know, fall 2020right now.
It's sort of contemporary thepast five, 10 years ish now.
I've attempted to make a versionof the show for a few years, all
trying to get at the samemoment, which is the news as I e
(09:31):
xperience it does not do aquality service.
It depresses it, enrages, itdistracts.
And in the simplest sense, itleaves me feeling worse at the
end of a dose then at thebeginning.
It is whatever the opposite ofmedicine is.
(09:52):
And I don't need some, you know,naive version of news where I
only hear happy tales, but Ithink the stories that we are
being fed and have been for solong, u m, do us an active
disservice and leave us feelingless empowered, pointing out all
(10:13):
the problems and nothing we cando about them.
That's not a service, u h, notanymore, not in these times.
So, that was the driving enginefor the idea of this show.
What if we shifted the focusaway from articulating the
problem, which so many people doso well in news and in comedy?
Which i s always a s line, I'vebeen straddling.
(10:36):
And focused i n on the peopleworking on those problems and
then give the audience somethingto do.
And I knew I suspected, but I'dsay stronger.
I knew I wasn't the only onethinking this or the people
working to make the show.
It wasn't like a small group offive people have faith in the
rest of us.
It's like, nah, there's a lotmore people who want to know
(10:58):
what's happening on thesechallenges and what they can do
to contribute.
And the banner citizen emergedas the label for this show.
And right now, right now, fall2020 right now, I need something
to hold on to.
Uh, we are in a sort of denialof service attack on our
(11:20):
sensibilities with the volumeand velocity of nonsense that's
being foisted on us by thecurrent administration.
And I say that actually not as apartisan statement though, I'm a
very partisan person.
You can objectively measure theamount of undermining of norms
(11:41):
and newsmaking and rule breaking.
And, uh, it moves too fast.
I can't just react to that.
So I wanted to find somethingdeeper for me that kept me in
this because otherwise it'slike, why bother?
And so for me to be able to talkto people who are not
theorizing.
These are not philosophers weare talking to on How to citizen
(12:03):
with Baratunde.
These are practitioners to talkto people who are making headway
and finding ways to shape ourworld to do what the news
implies.
We can't, that's the story thatI want to help tell that's why
now.
(12:35):
And then the other piece is youknow, we're doing this whole
thing in Zoom, like everything.
Zoom is holding our democracy,our fraying, fragile democracy
is being held together by theservers of Zoom.
And I'm grateful to them and alittle suspicious of why they
were so prepared, but we'vedecided to make the show with
(12:58):
people and to do it kind of likea live TV show taping, which was
the original version of the showas a TV show.
And so we do these live Zoomtapings with most of our guests
and an audience, and they get toask questions too.
And to see them build communityin the chat during the 90 minute
(13:20):
session and to put people inbreakout rooms and have them
Citizen together.
I mean, we, the pandemic hasallowed us to model what we're
talking about in a much moredistributed way.
And so we got people pop in fromMadison and Austin and Maine and
that would have been much moredifficult if we did it under
(13:42):
business as usual circumstances.
Cindy Sealls (13:45):
Wow.
I, would've never thought ofthat.
That the pandemic actually ishelping people work in community
together.
Baratunde Thurston (13:55):
When we started talking about making
this podcast with iHeart whowe're making the show with, I
was like, I really want tocreate a situation where I can,
I have, uh, I can get a goodmicrophone.
You don't have this audiorecorder.
I should, I should be able torecord at least my, my
voiceovers from home.
But the plan was like, I'm goingto go into the studio in
Hollywood and they're going tobook the guests and we're going
(14:16):
to go through security and we'regoing to do all this...
and then once, you know, thepandemic started to hit, I had
already started building out thestudio.
And so I was actually more readyfor this.
And I knew what Zoom was becauseI interact with the corporate
world, way more than anyoneshould.
So it actually, it could havebeen a severe disadvantage, but
(14:36):
it ended up working out.
Cindy Sealls (14:46):
My next question is about what's going on in our
environment currently.
This whole idea about division,you know, these, there are these
two very different sides in ourcountry right now.
And we talk often about how inthe world can we work together?
(15:10):
How do citizens in a countrywork together?
Because that's what ourdemocracy is about, right?
It's about us working togetherto make this a place where we
all can live together, you know,not perfectly, but everybody has
their rights.
So how did you know in thissituation that we're going
(15:31):
through right now where, I mean,people are angry with the other
side.
I mean, you can't even talk topeople.
I mean, if you say Biden, Imean, you'll get slapped.
If you say Trump you'll getslapped.
How do we as citizens get pastthat?
Baratunde Thurston (15:50):
Yeah.
Uh, thanks for the easyquestion.
Love it.
We've explored versions of thisin the show.
And so I want to give somecredit to a few of our guests
who have even better answersthan I do.
Valerie Kauer is a spiritualleader, a civil rights activist,
(16:12):
a writer, and an author of abook called See No Stranger.
And, I knew I wanted to kick ourseries off with Valerie.
It was, it was an epiphanymoment, which is not usually how
ideas occur in me, but Valeriesaid in a very famous line of a
poem that she delivered inDecember, 2016 referring to the
(16:36):
election results that stunned somany.
"What if this is not thedarkness of the tomb, but the
darkness of the womb?
What if our nation is not dying,but just being born again.
And birth is messy and it's darkand it's scary, it's loud, but
on the other end is new life."That's a paraphrasing, she did a
(17:00):
better job, but I think you getthe, just the spirit of it.
And I was like, I want Valerieto be the spiritual invocation
of the project of How to Citizenand her book is about
revolutionary love and See NoStranger, the title of it comes
down to this idea from herfaith, but applies to the faith
in democracy as well that astranger is just a part of me I
(17:22):
do not yet know.
And that our mission is to dothe revolutionary love thing to
citizen through revolutionarylove is to love ourselves, to
love others and even to love ouropponents, don't call them
enemies.
Enemies is a more permanentstatus.
Opponents is dynamic.
It can shift and change, and itdoesn't mean ignoring the
(17:44):
offenses or caving in on yourvalues, but it means seeing the
human in them and not themonster that they might appear
to be.
Valerie also said, there's nosuch thing as monsters in this
world, there are just woundedpeople who are manifesting their
insecurities in some way.
And when they align themselveswith depression, they chip away
(18:08):
at their own humanity too, andtheir own ability to love.
And so we don't want to do that.
So I think it's important.
That's not exactly actionable,but I think it's o riented to
the project.
(18:31):
I was not interested in making ashow where like, I sit down with
an avowed white supremacist,white nationalist, or Klansmen
on a regular basis to kind ofprove that we can all come
together.
That's not my purpose in thislife.
But I do think we need to allbelieve in a venue where we can
(18:53):
contend over how our societyworks.
And we've got this democracything, which means people power.
And that brings me to like oursecond guest, this guy, Eric
Liu, who really says, like, whenwe contend over power, that's
called politics.
That's the word we give it.
And we have to be cool with theidea of power and wrestling with
(19:14):
it and understanding it as partof our mission and our role as
citizens.
So what doesn't mean, to be acitizen doesn't require that we
all agree with each other onevery issue, but it does require
that we agree to have faithenough in each other to argue
(19:34):
and to wrestle over control andpower in some acceptable ways.
And so I'm about that.
And I think our show is aboutthat and so how do we do that in
an era of like peak division andanger?
We start.
You know, it's taken us a whileto build to this existing fever
(19:58):
pitch of massive amounts ofdistrust.
It's taken a heavy investment totry to de- legitimize some of
our established venues fordemocracy, whether they be
courts, whether they be themedia, whether they be the right
to assembly, that all are beingchallenged.
Uh, but some of us havecontributed more than others to
the divide we're living in.
(20:26):
So we get oriented to the ideaof what this project is.
We understand our power.
We make space.
And then what does it look like?
So there's a third example.
I'll offer up.
We just taped this episode witha modern, small D democratic
hero.
She's an artist out of Chicago,Tonika Johnson.
(20:48):
She's created something calledThe Folded Map Project.
And she has taken on thechallenge of the legacy of red
lining and what it's done todivide the city of Chicago, but
used its grid layout, the gridthat maps the city itself, where
there is a North version of anaddress and a South version of
an address.
(21:09):
And we all know South side ofChicago, black people, you think
poverty, you think crime and allof these images that the media
has painted.
Also beauty.
Also Michelle Obama's home.
You know, it's like a lot ofgood stuff there, but the North
side has a lot more resourcesthan the South side.
So she folded the map andstarted photographing
(21:30):
corresponding homes on eitherside of that folded line.
And then she went a step furtherand met the residents of each.
And then she went a step furtherand had them meet each other and
create a dialogue and then visiteach other's neighborhoods, not
as tourist or as charity acts,but to live.
Gave them assignments.
(21:52):
So now I'm spoiling my ownepisode.
It's gonna be a dope one.
But that's practicingcitizenship.
That is as Tonika puts it, FindYour Fold and explore the other
side as a human, not as a set oftalking points, you know?
And I think the example you use, if you say the word Biden,
okay.
Yeah.
(22:12):
That's in an election seasonduring most divisive period that
we've had since our civil war and a non hyperbolic statement.
That's probably really true.
The B iden's like, u h, atriggering term for some people
in the country.
U h, but there are other termsof engagement that we could use,
and it's not going to get easierin the election season, but
(22:34):
there will be a season afterthis and we need to find those
venues again to argue and fightpeacefully over power.
(22:59):
Yeah.
So I think, you know, I want tomake this point about the folks
planning to take up arms aroundthis election.
And, and when people say likewe're more divided than any time
since the civil war, it's likepresidential historians saying
that who actually understandwhat that means.
It's not just left or rightpundits.
It's, I think, it's a fact.
(23:21):
And we have a president whostokes that and unlike most
other, maybe any otherpresidents encourages citizens
to use violence.
When it comes from the very toplike that, that's a different
sort of challenge.
So if you're out here talkingabout taking up arms, c ause you
(23:44):
don't like the results, anelection, that does not make you
a Patriot.
There's not a patriotic act i na democracy to resort to a gun
because you don't like anelection result.
If you're a Patriot, if youbelieve in the American project,
then you fight in the nextelection.
(24:06):
That's literally how we set thisup.
And those founding fathers, whoyou say you adore, offered us
that as the way we fight.
So to pick up a gun reveals notyour defense of the
constitution, but y ourundermining of it.
It's very, un-American.
(24:27):
Let them defend how it'sactually American to not believe
in America, to not believe inAmerican democracy.
It just strikes me as a blackperson that we never get this.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, like we never get to dothis.
(24:48):
We never get to do this.
One group of Americans gets tomarch with guns in the streets
during a pandemic.
And they block access to thestate Capitol and spit in the
faces of law enforcement, whothey say they love During a
respiratorily transmitteddisease, spitting in the faces
of law enforcement and thegovernment responds with a bunch
(25:09):
of nothing.
And then another group ofAmerican, not just black people,
the whole coalition who valueblack people though take to the
streets with no guns and get metby the very men with guns whose
behavior they're protesting.
And there's no N95 masks forhealthcare workers, but there's
plenty of gas masks for riotpolice.
And there's no face shields forfrontline workers, but there's
(25:30):
plenty of riot shields.
So we demonstrate ourpriorities.
And so I would love, you know,in a more challenging way in a
less gentle way, but still witha loving spirit and say, did you
take up arms for any of theseblack people who were gunned
down in their homes, on ourstreets?
Where were you?
Why do you choose to act overhere, but not over there?
(25:52):
And ask what's different?
Don't tell them that they'rewrong.
Ask them the question.
Eric Liu in our show has sometips for engaging with people
who we disagree with.
Questions work better than whitepapers and fact piles and
talking points.
And one of the questions Ericsuggests is to ask someone, what
(26:15):
are you afraid is going tohappen?
What happens if your side loses?
And force them to paint thatpicture and get real about
personal fear?
And then they're going to dothis over.
No, no, no, no, no.
What are you afraid of?
What's going to happen to you?
Are you going to have less powerin your job?
Are you gonna make less money?
Are you going to get deported?
(26:36):
Are you going to lose your home?
Like, what do you specificallythink is bad that's coming to
you?
And then engage with that fearat that emotional level.
And you can maybe start tocounter the talking point of
socialism or whatever the redherring is or"black lives matter
is terrorist." Cause that's notgood.
Kelley Lynch (26:57):
In your show you talk a lot about the word
citizen as a verb.
And I wondered if you had some,you know, maybe there's some
(27:20):
practical steps that you couldthink of that we can take to
channel this kind of messy,fear-filled chaotic thing that's
going on into something that'smore useful for us moving
forward?
Baratunde Thurston (27:38):
On citizen as a verb, our show, we decided
to like make it harder than itnecessary.
We could, like, I could havejust sat down with some people,
had some conversations, call ita day.
But again, in part, thanks to myexecutive producer and life
partner, Elizabeth, we have likea framework and beliefs and
(27:59):
it's, it's like almost like alittle constitution.
But one of the things we had toget straight is like, what do we
believe it means to citizen?
And so we came up with thesefour pillars influenced heavily
by our first two guests, ValerieKaur and Eric Liu from citizen
university, is this, to citizenis to show up and participate.
(28:23):
It's a very simple thing, butit's an under marketed act, you
know?
Cause a lot of the times we hearvote, contact your reps, maybe
follow the news.
It's either passive, right?
Follow the news or it'sdelagatory, right.
Delegate your power to somebodyelse to exercise it for you.
(28:44):
Vote for this other person towield your power on your behalf.
And that's part of it.
But it's so much more than that.
With Valerie, it was reallylearning that the second pillar
is about being in relationship;that we have to invest in
relationships with each other.
And that goes counter to a hypercapitalist and individualistic
(29:07):
message, as absurd as our armedservices, which for a while,
pedaled the idea of an army ofone, which ain't an army, that's
just a dude with a gun.
Like that's not how this works.
Uh, an army of one's not goingto do very much to protect the
collective.
Uh, so we invest inrelationships and we build in
(29:29):
our relationship with each otherand recognize that we are
dependent on each other.
That's really important.
Third is from Eric Liu, we haveto understand power.
It's our job to understandpower, not shy away from it, not
be afraid of it, which is alsokind of a male powers is dirty
(29:49):
thing I don't want to, I don'twant to claim it.
No, no.
Get to keep me away from it'slike kryptonite.
No, no, no, no.
It's Popeye spinach.
You know, we need that.
And there are many differenttypes as money.
There's power in sharing ideas.
There's, there's power inphysical gathering.
You know, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to wield it an
power is always moving.
As I said before.
And the last is that we do allof this for the benefit of the
(30:13):
many and not just the few.
And again, this goes so much ofwhat we've done in our country
and the West largely over thepast 40 50 years is we've
undermined all of those pillars.
We've said to the extent thatyou're active, just make it an
economic activity.
(30:33):
Buy stuff.
To the extent that you relate toanyone it's yourself.
It's the army of one.
It's the brand, You.
It's"you do you." It's all ofthis reinforcement that we're
alone.
That is not true.
And so we have to practice allthese things cause we're out of
practice.
So to citizen, practice showingup, talk to a neighbor, connect
(31:00):
to a civic meeting, join a club.
You know, we give assignmentsand every show Eric's just like,
start a club.
It doesn't have to be a civicclub.
It could be a bowling club or aVR bowling club or whatever,
just start a club.
Because you have to practicedisagreeing with other people
and negotiating rules andconsequences for disappointment.
(31:21):
And we don't have a lot ofpractice at that.
That's a very practical thing—building these muscles that,
it's not just that they'veatrophied it's, that it has
served a few of us to encouragethe atrophy at the expense of
the many of us.
(31:42):
And that is a message thatshould resonate with a
conservative and a liberal.
There's different angles intothis.
And then we meet in the arenaand we have tools and language
to duke it out through all thesedifferent flavors of power and
(32:03):
different institutions thatwe've built.
So what I want people to do,what I think they could do.
I think Eric's advice is great.
I think start something—startanything.
(32:30):
I think because we're in apandemic, I will also echo
another call to action from oneof our shows, which is find an
effort very local to you that isproviding any kind of relief or
support with this pandemic.
What we lack in federalleadership around this thing we
have in abundance on the ground.
(32:51):
And you may already be a part ofit.
If not, I guarantee you,somebody is doing something
within a half mile of you and wecan use the Facebook and the
Twitter and the Instagram andNext Door.
Somebody is up to something,find them and ask, how can I
help?
(33:12):
Don't ask about partyaffiliation.
Don't ask who you're voting for.
This is not about that.
Ask how can I help?
And in the process of helping,maybe it's with World Central
Kitchen doing some pop-up mealdelivery, maybe you're
distributing masks to people whowork in jails and prisons.
The good news, there is plentyof work to go around.
(33:35):
So we don't need you to doeverything.
We need everybody to dosomething and find your thing.
And to the extent that it alignswith something you're passionate
about or competent at all thebetter.
What are you good at?
What are you interested ingetting good at?
And take some of that energythat's going into and dissecting
(33:58):
and what if and the scenariosand the election.
Cool.
I understand the rabbit hole,addictive nature of a good
YouTube recommended place, butthat is all taking away from the
community you could be helpingto build.
(34:19):
So take those minutes, takethose hours and invest them in
we, not just me.
So that's it.
I hope that some of that'shelpful.
Um, and we've got a pile—that'sthe beauty of the construct of
the show—If you go tohowtocitizen.com and we have a
library of specific actions thatyou can do and, and they are
(34:41):
external focused.
There are a lot of the types ofthings I just described.
But because of Elizabeth'sinvolvement, there's also a lot
of internal focus things Iwouldn't have seen.
You know, we asked people in arecent episode, write down
everything you've done since thebeginning of this pandemic to
help anyone other than yourself.
(35:03):
It could have been, you donatedonline to the Red Cross.
It could have been, you checkedin with a neighbor to see if
they needed some groceries,cause you were going and didn't
want to add more people or spendthe fuel money.
Whatever your incentive was, youhelped somebody else.
And I look at that list andcelebrate yourself and your
participation in yourcontribution to this thing.
(35:27):
You were citizening that's it.
And then think about what elseyou could do.
Cindy Sealls (35:33):
I love that word.
You were citizening.
We can give trophies.
You're the best citizen ever
Kelley Lynch (35:41):
That's a real trophy for participation, right?
Baratunde Thurston (35:43):
That's right.
It's a literal participationtrophy.
Cindy Sealls (35:46):
I love how you talk about, um, that you don't
have to agree that.
I think that's the problemnowadays.
If we find somebody doesn'tagree with us it's as if w e
just shut them off.
Yeah.
Okay.
W ow.
I don't want to talk to thatperson.
I'm not talking to them, butyou're right.
You know, just in any, any partof life you get together and you
g ot t o work stuff out and youknow, even t wo people who live
(36:09):
together in a marriage don'tagree on everything.
T hey k ind o f work it out.
Tell me about it.
Now t here's g otta be some backand forth a bit there.
U m, and I think these days wefind out a person is thought
this they're done.
We cancel them.
Baratunde Thurston (36:24):
It's harsh, it's harsh.
And I think that if we try toown this term relationship and
what you just described, Cindy,about being in a marriage, you
know, if we applied rules to ourmarriage, the way we do to our
politics, like not just ourmarriage with our families,
(36:44):
every family structure wouldinstantly disintegrate.
Okay.
So you don't agree with yourmother.
So you're never going to talk toher again.
She's just wrong on everythingnow and nothing she's ever done
counts for anything.
And this moment, really, maybeyou lose this round.
Maybe you compromise.
Maybe you agree to disagree andyou move on and argue about
(37:05):
something different or you comeback to it.
And again, I think there arelevels to disagreement.
I will never agree that it isacceptable to kidnap children in
my name, through a federalgovernment law enforcement
apparatus, and then tointentionally destroy records so
(37:26):
that you cannot reconnect thesechildren with their families.
I consider that a human rightsviolation, right?
I'm not going to agree that no,it's actually a great thing.
So, so then what do I do withthat?
I fight.
I use my power.
I vote.
I lobby.
I write letters.
(37:48):
I rally.
I spread ideas.
I write speeches.
I tweet, I argue, I question, Iinterrogate.
I demand.
I spend money to try to make mybelief that this is wrong
prevail so that it does notcontinue.
And if you want to take theopposite view and invest all
(38:09):
those resources in the opposite,you have that, right.
You can lobby for mass childkidnapping and records of
destruction.
I think that's a weird battle topick.
I think it's a weird Hill to tryto die on, but you know, that's
you have that right?
As long as we agree that theterms are okay, then the best
(38:34):
side should win over time.
And if not, that's part of ittoo, but this absolutest thing
doesn't serve anyone.
That's authoritarianism.
It's not democracy anymore I'mexhausted from arguing over the
(39:04):
basics.
I don't want to argue over theexistence of the postal service.
So now, so now you're going toforce me to argue that I, that I
shouldn't trust the mail.
That's a different, that's notan argument within a democracy.
That's an argument againstdemocracy.
(39:25):
And that I won't, I will not saythat's as legitimate.
There are folks who are arguingfor a different system in our
society.
One that is just one guy, getswhat he wants.
And that's literally what weestablished this nation to
oppose.
(39:47):
So no, no.
We have to remember ourselves.
We actually have to read thosedocuments again.
And so when it comes to thatkind of disagreement, Cindy, I
don't think it's the same.
I look forward to a disagreementover tax policy.
That'd be so much fun to argueabout marginal tax rate again,
you have no idea.
I look forward to that as muchas I look forward to being in a
(40:08):
crowd again, maybe we could doat the same time, I can go to a
rave slash bar slash nightclubslash political festival slash
tax policy debate all at thesame time, when we successfully
defeat this virus.
Cindy Sealls (40:21):
I think that's what everybody's going to do.
Like there'll be so pent up, doit all at the same time,
everything will happen in waves.
They have their papers, bringtheir drinks, bring your sports
equipment.
Baratunde Thurston (40:35):
Also be karaoke.
Cindy Sealls (40:39):
It could be like the Sidwell Gogo.
Did you ever have those?
Oh, did they have I, I ran likeone of those ones.
Oh my God.
That was the president of ourblack student union for a few
years.
And talk about sweaty overseethose citywide dances that took
place, uh, at the SidwellFriends school.
(41:01):
Very odd scene.
Very odd.
Baratunde Thurston (41:03):
I think I have two more thoughts.
I, one leave you with one, uh,is about, um, like I am learning
a lot and I think I keep havingto remind myself that I don't
know everything and that I'mlearning.
And you know, this show ishelping with the humility
(41:23):
because we're bringing people inwho are, who have done the
things in their area.
And I'm like, I never thought ofthat.
And I'm seeing responses folksand, or even hearing their
challenges.
And so it's, it also humbles mystridency about how maybe easy
this might be.
It's not, and it's a hard andit's painful and it's hurtful.
(41:44):
And that's a part of it too.
This isn't just like a funexercise.
We do this and it hurts and itstings and we cry and we scream
and that's a part of it.
That's a part of anyrelationship we have to deem the
relationship worth it.
(42:05):
When we deem it worth it, thenwe tolerate those things and we
can have a fight with ourpartner and go to bed with them
and wake up the next morning andmake a meal.
And we can have a fight with ourchild and we still love them and
we still support them.
And we still want the best forthem.
We are in relationship with eachother.
(42:26):
That is it just, I, I didn'twalk into the show knowing that
it's not like, Oh, I will.
For the past 42 years, I've beencoming up with the theory.
No I'm learning.
And I'm just like learning withthe listener and sharing that.
So I really appreciate thisopportunity, like a lot.
And Cindy you brought me backwith the Sidwell connection in a
way that was far deeper than anyof this, like typical, let's
(42:49):
talk about your podcastconversation.
Um, the last piece I said therewere two was teenagers kids.
If you're looking for a reminderthat this is worth it, that we
have a chance that things couldget better look to our young
(43:10):
people, but not in the typicalway.
The typical way that we look atyoung people as like you're
going to save us, right?
That's what every commencementspeech comes down to.
Y'all gonna clean up my mess,right?
Cause I contributed so much tothis jacked up world and nearly
destroyed our only livableplanet, but I believe in you.
That is that's the worst.
(43:31):
I think I would, I really wantsomebody to have me do a
commencement speech because itwill be not that.
That is, that is telling a childto clean up their room and your
room.
Bad.
When I say look to the yearyoung people, it's, it's not as
an outsourcing opportunity.
It is to remember whatimagination looks like; to
(43:59):
remember what challengingauthority looks like, b ecause
they are less steeped in ournonsense.
And they can say that doesn'tmake any sense.
And they're probably right.
And we wrestle with their ideastoo.
And they push us, let them pushus and let's help them help us
(44:22):
to be better.
And I've seen things from theseyoung folk and it's just t he
restored me.
We had a group p hone c alledCivics unplugged.
They have a plan For 2030.
I'm l ike, O h, somebody doesgreat.
It's not coming from Ted Cruz.
I knew that, but I, that's notenough.
It's not enough to not havefaith in some part of the
(44:47):
system.
W e have to have sources offaith too.
And I think t hat's source offaith is us.
Baratunde Thursto (44:58):
All right, that's it.
I could preach for a thousandyears.
I will not.
Thank you so much for having me.
Cindy Sealls (45:02):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
And um, you know, I'm just soproud of what you've done and I
mean, I must admit as a, as anAfrican-American, it just makes
me happy that you were able tojust find your way in the world
and do what you're doing, whichis helping pull other people
through, you know, which is whatit's all about.
Kelley Lynch (45:36):
Hey Tanvir, great to see you.
Hi, Tanvir it's been awhile.
It has.
So finally, we're back with this, uh, new season thing.
I think we could talk about whatwe heard in the episode and what
we plan to do about it.
(45:56):
I mean, because this whole thingis about actually taking some
action, not just talking.
So what do you think
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (46:06):
To take responsibility for our actions
or to some extent, uh, ourinteractions.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Exactly.
So what are you going to do?
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (46:15):
I started as a member of a photography
society.
And then after a couple ofyears, I left the society
complaining that people aretalking about everything else,
then photography itself.
So I got fade up and left andnow I come to realize that was a
mistake.
(46:35):
You know, like it was, uh, amongeverybody else.
It was also my duty to keep iton the right track.
So I actually have gone back tothe society and I'm actively
participating in the meetingsand in the discussions, it's not
a huge thing, but it's a start,I guess it's like I said, just
(47:00):
start something.
We cannot control everything.
I cannot change the countrypolitics, or I cannot change the
word politics, but at leastwithin my sphere, if I act that
can have ripple effect andthat's what I'm counting on.
Kelley Lynch (47:19):
So Cindy, you want to talk about what we're going
to do well, yeah, and I think alot of what we're going to do
ties right into what Tanvir issaying.
Cindy Sealls (47:30):
So what we're planning to do is engage in
conversations with people whohave very different views than
we do.
Um, and we want it to be a civilconversation.
We're not, we won't be trying toget them to come to our opinion.
We just want to hear what theyhave to say and listen, and be
(47:51):
really open to what theirviewpoints are without trying to
argue them down.
Kelley Lynch (47:58):
And we're going to start close to home.
We're going to work with peoplewho, who we know actually like
us and care about us, but havevery different viewpoints.
And there's kind of a range ofviewpoints in this small group
that we've put together andwe're going to meet every
Saturday and we're going to talkfor an hour or two and try and
(48:22):
come to it with curiosity.
You have your own Saturday club.
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (48:27):
That was my idea.
I have my Saturday club.
Kelley Lynch (48:30):
Exactly.
You know, I think we've talkedabout it before.
I don't think it's been on thepodcast before, but are you
going to introduce any of thisat your own Saturday club?
Or is that something that youalready do?
I already do that we alreadyhave a Saturday club and we've
been, uh, sitting for more thana yeah.
(48:52):
It's about one and a half yearold club.
It's basically a small tightlyknit group with different
diverse opinion.
And we talk about our interestsranging from politics to boats,
to cars, to anything andeverything.
And we have a different opinionthat at the end, end of the
(49:13):
discussion become out a moreknowledgeable level, certain
things.
And the best part is like, itrefreshes us for the whole week
because there is no winner.
There is no debate it'sdiscussion.
Speaker 4 (49:30):
And the whole idea is to learn from each other.
So we, we have completelyopposite, uh, ideas about a lot
of things.
A lot of issues, like one of myreally good friend, very good
friend is Andy climate change.
He doesn't believe in climatechange.
And I, with my experience inplanet projects, I'm a strong
(49:55):
believer of that.
So we stand in the opposite boat, but still we never fight about
it.
We present our own findings andtry to learn from each other.
Kelley Lynch (50:05):
You kind of set these ground rules at the
beginning, or it evolved.
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (50:10):
The only rule that we have is like at the
end of the discussion, we willnot have any hard feelings.
And how do you ensure that thathappens if you respect each
other?
It happens automatically.
Everybody else in the room hastheir own way of seeing things
(50:31):
and they have their knowledgepool as well.
So you're there to share andlearn.
Kelley Lynch (50:38):
What would you say have been the benefits of that
for you?
A it's refreshing, I'm talkingto a group of people who share
similar kind of views inopposite views maybe, but at the
same plane intellectually, thisis stimulating.
And also it's informative aswell.
(50:59):
I learned a lot of things thatnew things that I did not know.
And also there's topics that Ihad zero interest.
I grew interest on that.
So it's a learning experience aswell as it gives you practical
information that you did notknow, certain things work that
(51:22):
way, it opens up your mind andyou start to see a different
perspective.
It's like, you know, the feelingthat when in the same place, 10
photographers go, they had comeout with 10 different
photograph.
You know, sometimes it'scompletely opposite than each
other.
Obaidah Fattah Tanvir (51:40):
And that if you look at them side by
side, you realize there are somany different perspective and
so many different ways to seeit.
Kelley Lynch (51:52):
Absolutely.
Cindy Sealls (51:54):
I was thinking about, you know, why it's so
hard to discuss some things, forinstance, uh, I, unfortunately I
tie everything to sports, but Iwas thinking about how, when
people discuss sports, they'revery knowledgeable about their
particular sport that they'reinterested in, but there's
always, and I'll say debates insports about different
(52:16):
individuals.
About who's the best pitcher whowas the best hockey player.
And people will discuss this forhours and there might be yelling
and hollering and screaming, butnobody leaves that discussion or
debate hating that other person.
You know, I think what thedifference is in those kinds of
(52:37):
arguments, debates discussions,and sort of the moral
discussions.
And I heard that on, the hiddenbrain podcast episode called
moral combat, where once aperson feels it's a moral issue,
it's almost kind of a life ordeath thing.
(52:59):
And, and there's a bit more of,I do not even like you, if you
don't agree with me on thisissue.
And so that's what we have tofigure out how to navigate.
Kelley Lynch (53:12):
I think it's great.
We're doing this all togetherbecause then we can kind of hold
each other accountable and shareour experiences.
I mean, just hearing about moreabout your project makes me
think that would be reallyawesome to have other people on
who are doing little projectsand talk to them about things
that they do that help theircommunity.
(53:34):
I mean, like I can think of ourguy who always goes around on
trash day and he putseverybody's garbage cans back.
And he's done it for years.
There's another mother that wemet who has a disabled child and
she decided that she was goingto run for the school board and
she's never run for anything.
So there's a whole bunch ofpeople out there who are doing
(53:57):
things.
And I think it would be reallycool to feature some of those
stories and hear from them aboutwhat they're doing.
Cause I think, you know, onceyou start talking about these
things, you start to see, Oh,Hey, I could do that.
That could be fun.
Kelly & Cindy (54:27):
You're not going to believe this last night in
the middle of the night.
Oh, we swear.
I heard, I know what you'regoing to say.
What did you hear gunshots?
Well, I don't know what it was.
I just heard this pop pop hop.
Yeah.
I looked and I got up, it wastwo 39.
Right,
Cindy Sealls (54:46):
Right, right.
Yeah.
Cause I, I, I was in the middleof a dream and there was kind of
not violence, but there wasstuff going on in the dream
where people were tussling.
And then I heard that and I, andI was like, wait, what, what was
that?
And I saw, I jumped out of thebed and I see that the lights
(55:07):
on, I run down.
Um, cause I know Stephen's stillin the basement playing video
games.
So I'm like, well, maybe thatwas, was that from that?
So I'm like, Stephen, did youhear anything?
He was like, no.
And so I thought, since Stephenhadn't heard it, I thought it
was part of the dream.
And then I was thinking, Oh man,recording that thing.
And now I'm all screwed up.
(55:29):
Like I can't tell what's realand what's not,
Kelley Lynch (55:33):
But that's our lives now, anyway.
Hey, we're so glad you'velistened this far.
And I just wanted to tell youthat we've now got a website, a
new normalpodcast.com.
(55:54):
That'll be our one-stop shop foreverything to do with the
podcast.
That's where you can subscribe.
You can contact us, you can readreviews, rate the show.
You can learn more about us andsubscribe to our newsletter.
That's also where you'll findthe transcripts and you'll find
show notes with informationabout all of the things that
(56:17):
we've mentioned in the podcast.
Like the podcast Cindy wastalking about today and some
other information on starting aconversation group of your own
from the national conversationproject and some other resources
that we're going to use as westart our project.
And perhaps most of all, wewould really love to hear from
(56:39):
you.
If you've got your own storyabout somebody that is doing
something in your community, ormaybe that somebody is you, our
plan is to feature the storiesof those people who are already
being the change that they wantto see in their own backyard.
So if you're interested insharing your story and being on
(57:01):
the podcast, please be sure toget in touch.
We'd love to hear from you.
We'll see you next week.
Bye.
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