Pivot!!!

It's a surreal time. Millions are unemployed and, for others, work has changed in ways they never imagined. This week we talk with career and leadership coach Karen Gulliford about managing change, what it takes to lead during a pandemic and why NOW could actually be the time to find a job or a career that fits you better than the one you’re leaving behind.

Find out more about Karen's work here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karencgulliford/

Connect with us on our Instagram feed:
https://www.instagram.com/anewnormalpodcast/

The theme music is Fragilistic by Ketsa
licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0

Episode Transcript

Cindy Sealls (00:00):
Who was I talking to today?
Oh, I was talking to my coworkerand we were just talking about,
I mean, our total system of howwe do our work completely
changing.
Then we started talking aboutour kids and how their school is
completely changing.
She has a kid in high school anda kid going to college.

(00:23):
We're just like, we don't evenknow where, you know, things are
so up in the air.
We have to be flexible.
We have to be adaptable.
It's the only way we cansurvive.
And that's the only way humanbeings have survived.
Karen's whole talk feeds intoexactly why you started this
podcast.

Kelley Lynch (00:42):
Really?

Cindy Sealls (00:43):
Yeah.
Because think you're sittingthere and you're like, ah, man,
I can't go anywhere.
And you're like, wait, this iskinda nice.
Kinda not having to go anywhereand not having to feel like I
have to do something.
And then you get to, huh?
I wonder if this could make usthink differently about a lot of

(01:04):
things.
Maybe this is a chance for us tofigure out a new path and this
isn't even a, maybe it's achance.
This is, we will have to figureit out.
We don't have any choice.
The pandemic is forcing us to godown forks in the road that we

(01:26):
don't know where they will lead.

Kelley Lynch (01:29):
And it's actually a lot like a creative endeavor.
I learned a long time ago,actually in art school that
often it's those little deathsand disasters that happen,
whether it's on the canvas orit's when you're designing a
book.
There will always be something,sometimes something major,

(01:53):
sometimes something more minor.
Something goes wrong and itcauses you to have to totally
rethink everything.
And yet coming out the otherside, you say, Oh my God, that
is so much better than it wouldhave been if I just carried on
down the path that I thought.
And so eventually as a creativeperson, I think you get to where

(02:17):
you're actually expecting thosethings.
And what you do is you see themas opportunities.
I mean, yes, it kills your oldidea and it, and it's a pain in
the ass because you've got to goback to the drawing board and
you've got to rethink and you'vegot to spend more hours and
spend more time.
And often that's time thatnobody's going to pay you for.

(02:39):
But you know that coming out theother side, there's going to be
something so much better.

Cindy Sealls (02:45):
See, you as a creative, know that.
Me as sort of more an analyticalkind of person, we don't like
that beause we want to know.
Because we want this plan and wewant the plan all laid out.
You know, What's going to happenwhen I get to there?
You know, you're a person whowould go, Oh, I don't know.

(03:07):
Let's go see what's gonnahappen.
And I'm a person who's going,okay, you go up there and see,
and you come back and tell me,and then I'll go.

Kelley Lynch (03:17):
I'll decide if I want to go up there.

Cindy Sealls (03:19):
I'll decide if I want to go up there.
But the beauty in having allkinds of people in the world is,
yeah, you're going to have abunch of people who are going to
be like, no, this just feels somuch more comfortable.
We know what's going to happen.
And then you have people who aregoing, let's just go see what's
over there.
Let's you know, let's just see.
That's the beauty of humanbeings, right?

(03:42):
It takes all of us.

Kelley & Cindy (03:53):
Hi, I'm Kelly Lynch and I'm Cindy Sealls.
Welcome to a new normal, apodcast about how we're adapting
to life during the pandemic andwhere we go from here.
Our guest today is KarenGulliford.
Karen is a career and leadershipcoach based in Richmond,
Virginia.
We talked to Karen about changesin the workplace, what it takes

(04:16):
to lead in a pandemic and whynow might be the time to find a
job or a career that's betterthan the one you're being forced
to leave behind.

Kelley Lynch (04:27):
Karen.
It's great to see you welcome tothe podcast.

Karen Gulliford (04:31):
So wonderful to be here today.

Kelley Lynch (04:33):
Can we start by asking you to share a little bit
about what you do because you doso many different things?

Karen Gulliford (04:41):
Sure.
So I have built my career in acouple of different ways.
I've been a traditional employeein human resources and many
different types of organizationsfrom professional services to
law firms to retail.
I actually worked with Macy'sfor quite a while.
And then around 2003, I had amajor life change.

(05:05):
My husband became ill and wedecided to basically pack up and
move back to Virginia and Iopened up my own shop.
So I used a lot of myexperiences in working in
organizations and humanresources to launch my own
consulting business.
Now, when I got to Richmond, itwas very difficult because I

(05:26):
didn't know anybody.
So it's like, how do you start abusiness and you don't have any
contacts?
So I did like traditional HRtemping myself out and that's
how I learned the RichmondVirginia market.
And that's where I live now.
I live right outside ofRichmond.
So my business grew and it grewthrough just making connections,
learning about organizations.

(05:47):
And I went back, got my master'sdegree in adult learning and
just kind of perfected my craftof consulting skills as well as
helping organizations developtheir learning programs and how
to develop leadership.
And then I started this journeyof becoming a professional
coach.
So I do a lot of consulting.

(06:08):
I do coaching.
I do a fair amount of leadershiptraining.
I work in organizations thattend to be traditional.
Um, we're talking about stategovernment, we're talking about
universities, organizations thathave really prided themselves on
staying the course.
And as we know, in thisenvironment, especially in 2020,

(06:32):
organizations cannot rely ontheir traditions anymore.
So I had been pretty busy thelast few years.
And then when COVID came intoour life in March, you know, the
world just kind of came to astop and I thought, I don't know
if people are going to reallywant to use my skills or people
are too scared to spend money onconsultants right now.

(06:52):
But I found that where the needis is"Okay, we have to change
now." So I'm doing a lot ofchange management and like, what
do we do?
Like how do we run ourorganizations?
And so I'm coaching peoplearound, even things like job
loss, coaching people around howto be better leaders.

(07:13):
How do I manage people thataren't sitting in my building
anymore and they're at home.
So I'm doing some of that andI'm still providing some
learning opportunities and someworkshops.
I actually just did a workshopyesterday on emotional
intelligence.
So maybe we'll have some time totalk a little bit about EQ
because that's what we needright now to live through this

(07:34):
pandemic and all of the changethat we're dealing with with
racial inequalities.

Kelley Lynch (07:39):
Well, let's go there now.
So yeah.
Tell us about emotionalintelligence and how it fits
into what you're seeing in termsof the pandemic.

Karen Gulliford (07:47):
Emotional intelligence came around as a
term, kind of in the 1970s,thanks to some research and work
of Daniel Goldman.
And I became very interested inemotional intelligence because
as a person who's interested inleadership development, I was
trying to find what makes aneffective leader.
And the more that you look atpeople who are very successful

(08:11):
and people who are able tomanage change within themselves
and within the organizations anddo things like lead people,
motivate others, develop people.
They have this thing calledemotional intelligence, which is
very different thanintelligence.
So I know a lot of smart people.
I know a lot of people who'vegot a lot of PhDs, got a lot of

(08:31):
degrees, a lot ofcertifications, a lot of
initials behind their name, butthey do not have emotional
intelligence.
And emotional intelligence ismade up of many different
facets.
It's a skillset and it'sbehavioral.
And that is the key that propelsa lot of leaders.
And to that next level leaderswho have high intelligence, they

(08:57):
make more money and they getpromoted quicker.
So it's not how many degrees youhave.
It's not smarts.
It's not certifications.
It is emotional intelligenceworking in dealing with people,
understanding your own emotionsand also being in touch with
others' emotions and feelings,and having that empathy, having

(09:19):
social responsibility, caringabout the work, caring about
your clients, caring about yourstaff and your employees as
people.
Listening, being able to take awalk in someone else's shoes,
the ability to be flexible.
And it also includes having agood regard for yourself and not

(09:41):
getting down on yourself soquickly.
But instead, being able tomanage through difficulty and
failure and use those as growthopportunities rather than
continuously beating yourself upand managing some of the
stresses that come in life andwe're dealing with a lot of
stress right now.
So emotional intelligence iswhat is getting, not just

(10:01):
leaders, but just getting all ofus through pandemic, through
stress, through having our livesand schedules disrupted.

Kelley Lynch (10:11):
Like you said, part of this is how people
actually deal with change.
So how does that show up forpeople?
I mean, when somebody's dealingwith it well, when somebody's
struggling, whether personally,or also in their organization?

Karen Gulliford (10:26):
So part of personal change is being able to
adapt and also we hear the worda lot resilience.
We have talked about this.
I have taught numerous coursesand here we are where we really
need to use those skills.
And they're difficult.
Change is really a grief cycle.

(10:47):
When you lose the way that youused to live your life.
When you lose working in anoffice with your coworker.
I'm hearing a lot about peoplewho are very sad right now.
Maybe they haven't lost theirjob, but they've lost that
connection to their coworkersand sorry, but the zoom is not
doing it for a lot of people.
They really want to see theircoworkers and interact and

(11:11):
brainstorm and have thoseimpromptu conversations they're
missing.
That is a difficult new way oflife for many people, even
things as simple as routines,you know, the time you get up
the time you make breakfast,your exercise routine.
You know, you used to send yourkids on the school bus or drive

(11:32):
them to school.
And now everybody's at home andthey want you to cater to them.
And Oh, mom's home.
She's not doing anything.
No I'm working.
What are you talking about?
Cause they've never seen theirparents work before.
So this is a grief cycle oflosing that routine.
That is kind of a rhythm that wenaturally get into at home and

(11:53):
at work.
And it's been greatly disrupted.
I haven't talked to anybody whohasn't had some part of their
life greatly disrupted.
So it it's a grief cycle.
And part of the grief cycle isletting go of the fact that
you're not going to have thatrhythm that you used to have.
And you have to let go of whatwas in order to come out on the

(12:16):
other side, which is acceptance.
You know, when I study job loss,we basically were taught to look
at the Kubler Ross's griefmodel.
And when people lose their jobs,you will see them go through all
of those phases.
At first, it's like, yeah, Ithink I might be losing my job,
but yeah, whatever.
And then all of a sudden ithappens, Oh, it's for real.

(12:39):
So then you deal with it and youtry to let go.
Usually the next phase iscomplete dismay and
disorientation and sort of thisdisorganization, like you just
can't figure out what you'redoing.
Like, I hear a lot of peopleright now saying that they don't
even know what time to eatanymore.
Everything's just off, but wehave to go through that cycle in

(13:01):
order to figure our way out ofit.
So that's what I'm seeing withcoaching clients.
I'm seeing that with leaders,I'm seeing that with employees,
they're going through a griefcycle.
We have to name it.
We have to deal with thatuncomfortable feeling that we
have.
And then we have to find somenew ways of living and some

(13:24):
organizations, I'm finding, aredoing that pretty well.
And then there are someorganizations where I'm seeing a
lot of struggle.
Some of the more traditionalclients who really kind of put
their stake in the ground aboutthis is our way of doing things.
They're having a lot moredifficulty in making decisions
and accepting the technology,accepting the fact that you

(13:46):
cannot see your employeesworking anymore.
It seems to be very challengingfor a lot of managers.
And so that's what I'm trying tohelp people see is, you're going
to have to let go of the factthat that's the way you liked
it.
Now we've got to move over here.

Kelley Lynch (14:11):
Can you give me an example of how companies are
managing this kind of a change,whether for better or for worse?

Karen Gulliford (14:19):
So in March, you know, very quickly, we all
had to just make that quickshift.
That was the beginning of a newworld.
This particular client had avery difficult time shifting to,
"We need to take care of healthand safety first and get people
home." That particularorganization probably took three

(14:41):
to four weeks to finally come upwith a definitive plan to send
people home.
I'm looking at the employees andI'm thinking, if this is a
pandemic, we don't know.
We don't know about this thingyet so why are we still asking
people to come in to work everyday?

(15:03):
And at least, here's the firstthing, we have to communicate.
We have to acknowledge, we havea big change coming and we need
to lean on our values.
So values are very, veryimportant.
When they face a crisis,companies have to pull their
values out and say, how do wewant to live?

(15:23):
If you really, really live thevalues.
And they're not just pieces ofpaper on the wall that will
guide you as to what to do.
What they should have done issend a communication out to say,
Hey, we have a major healthcrisis.
We don't know how this is goingto impact our business yet.
But in the meantime, what we'regoing to begin doing is starting

(15:44):
the process of moving people towork at home.
And you can even tell youremployees, we don't know if
we're doing this right or not,but this is what we're thinking.
And then just kind of share whatthe plan is.
And that way, even if you don'tdo it right, the employee knows
that you were thinking aboutthem and their safety first, and

(16:05):
you try to do the right thing.
And that goes a long way.
My criticism of that particularorganization was they didn't say
anything in a timely mannerbecause of fear that they might
have to change it.
That's okay.
Part of change is changing.
So communication early is whatI've seen is the most effective

(16:29):
way to retain and keep yourworkforce engaged during this
time that we're in.
They didn't do that so well.
Now I saw some other clients ofmine do a very good job.
So for example, another company,which was kind of small, the
minute that they heard the wordpandemic, they immediately said,
what do you guys need to work athome?

(16:51):
What concerns do you have beforeI send you home?
Immediately, the CEO, procured,scanners, laptops, printers
contacted all the vendors.
All the stakeholders, putsomething out on their website.
This is what we're going to do.
If you need to reach us, theremight be a small delay, but this
is what you can expect.
Operations are open, et cetera.

(17:14):
Those organizations were muchmore agile in making the shift
and it was throughcommunication.
So communication is key.
You have to use your values.
If your values say that you careabout people, that should be
guiding what the leadershipshould be doing.
If you take care of the peoplefirst, instead of first thing

(17:35):
you think about is money andprofit, the employees feel that
they know that money is moreimportant than their life.
And so you're not going to getproductivity and they're not
going to take care of yourcustomers.

(17:56):
I was just amazed at companiesthat would call and say, well,
how do I keep people working andkeep them productive?
And it's like, well, if youhaven't been treating them
really well up to this point,good luck.
You know, when we talk aboutemployee engagement and
employee, employer,relationship, those have to be
strong all the time.
So that when something like thishappens, you'll be able to keep

(18:19):
that level of trust andcommunication there.
And you can just keep going.
So if you call me during apandemic and say, Hey, can you
come in and help me get thesepeople to work harder?
I can't really help you withthat because if you haven't done
the communication, or if youhaven't been living the values
or you haven't been building arespectful relationship with

(18:41):
your staff up to this point,you're not going to get any
productivity now because theyknow that you really don't have
their best interests at heart.

Kelley Lynch (18:48):
As I'm sitting here listening, I find that
that's really also where we areas a country.
I mean, you have to have engagedleadership.
You know, you have to have atrusting relationship.
You have to have accurate andtimely information and
conversations.
Whether we think of ourselves asa family or as a business or

(19:11):
whatever we want to think ofourselves as, the parallels were
too much to pass up.
Oh, also the values leaning onyour values.

Karen Gulliford (19:20):
Organizations are always touting your values.
If you go on any major company'swebsite, there's values
everywhere.
So there's two types of values.
There's espoused values.
Those are the values that yousay you have.
And then there's lived values.
The values that we actually seein action.

(19:41):
So when I work withorganizations, I'm looking for
things like values and I'mlooking for are they lived or
not lived?
And I find that organizationsthat do not live the values, it
causes a very dysfunctional kindof working environment because
the employees know that weshould be doing this and we

(20:03):
should be treating people acertain way, but we don't.
So they play this game withtrying to appease people.
They avoid conflict, lots ofpolitics.
You know, we call it politics,but you have this dysfunctional
kind of relationship betweenpeople and organizations that
they should be living thevalues, but they don't and the

(20:23):
leader is not upholding them andthey don't hold people
accountable.
So you get kind of this crazykind of relationship where
people see what they can getaway with and see if I can throw
that person under the bus.
You know, you see all thesekinds of really crazy behaviors.
Managers and directors, theyshould know when people are not
living the values and they haveto call people on it and they

(20:45):
have to do a course correction.
So the organizations that areable to manage change and manage
stuff like pandemics and switchand change quickly, they rely on
those values and they upholdthem.

Cindy Sealls (21:16):
We're seeing a lot of people in the streets
protesting and becoming veryengaged with the black lives
matter movement.
Is this a new normal thatcompanies and organizations will
have to address moving forward?

Karen Gulliford (21:33):
Organizations are like families.
And again, I look at the valuesystems in which they are
living, whether they're lived ornot lived.
I look at behavior, I look atroles and responsibilities, and
I look at the leadership becausethat's where companies thrive
from is direction fromleadership.

(21:54):
So we know that there's asocietal issue, of course, with
racism and the employees and thecustomer want to know, again,
are you just saying that youbelieve in diversity or are you
doing it?
So companies not only have theybeen trying to manage pandemic,
Oh my gosh, I've got to sendpeople home.

(22:15):
I've got to figure out how tokeep my operation open.
But now the customer is saying,what are you doing about
diversity equity and inclusion?
The bottom line is it is whathappens day to day and the way
that we talk to each other, theway that we listen to each other
and those conversationssometimes need to be moderated

(22:36):
and they have to be managedbecause it is a type of
conversation that we are nottrained or comfortable having.

Kelley Lynch (22:46):
So again, because I think the workplace is so much
a microcosm of our largerculture.
How do you do that?
What are those essential skills?

Karen Gulliford (22:59):
I had one client who asked me, can you
help our leaders become betterfacilitators of having
conversations around things likerace.
And I thought that was really aninteresting request because they
want to help people get betterat hearing different points of

(23:20):
view without going crazy.
So I keep thinking about mylittle workshop that I did
yesterday.
It was a real quick workshop,but I gave some strategies that
I think are very practical thatwill help all of us build some
of that thicker skin and beingable to hold our own.

(23:40):
And you know, part of emotionalintelligence is also
assertiveness.
So assertiveness is a goodthing.
Assertiveness is standing up foryourself because you care about
an issue.
So we have to learn how to beassertive without putting other
people down.
It's okay to say, I don't agreewith you.
And I found that statement to bereally hurtful, but not tell the

(24:03):
other person you're an asshole.
Um, but there is a way to say, Idon't agree.
Let me give you my perspective.
And we all have triggers frompast experiences.
You know, many African Americanshave lived through some version
of trauma, whether that's fromnot having a father to living in

(24:23):
very difficult, challengingneighborhoods, to not have any
resources or educationalopportunities or being teased,
bullied.
I mean, we've had it.
So there's a lot of triggers inthere.
And we just have to admit in aworkplace, we have to control
some of those immediate thingsthat we want to say or do.
At the same time, I do thinkthere's a way that we can have

(24:45):
productive conversations, thatpeople can speak your truth.
It can be done in a way that isin a learning kind of way in a
curious kind of way.
And one of the best ways tolearn how to do that is to
practice something as simple, asactive listening.
And I know this sounds sosimple, but active listening is

(25:05):
really a great practical toolbecause it slows you down.
So if you're talking to me aboutyour political views or you
don't think black lives matter,or you don't like this, or you
don't like this, instead of methinking about how I want to
tell you how much of an idiot Ithink you are.
If I use active listening,instead, my brain goes to let me

(25:27):
rephrase what Kelley just said.
So it stops me from reacting andsaying something that makes the
conversation go completelydownhill.
Again, it's easier said thandone, but you have to practice
it.
So as you're talking, I say, so,Kelley, what I heard you say is
that you don't really think thisblack lives matter movement

(25:50):
makes any sense, and you reallywish that people would stop
protesting.
Is that right?
So immediately I kind of reignedin maybe my emotions and my
feelings and my triggers.
And all I did was repeat whatyou said.
And sometimes when we do activelistening, when the other person
hears what they just said, a lotof times they say, I just said

(26:14):
that.
So well, Karen, that's notexactly what I meant.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Well, what, what did you mean?
So it just kind of lets theother person know.
I'm not saying I agree with you,but I heard you.
And once the person hears theway that you heard it, sometimes
the whole conversation willchange.
So I know that's a really,really simple practical tool,

(26:36):
but it works.
Once you show that you respectthem, even though you do not
agree with anything that theysaid, they will respect you and
they will let you give yourpoint of view.
We've got to learn some of thesestrategies.
If we want to continue to livetogether and work together.

(27:02):
Back to the pandemic.
I'm seeing a lot of leaders whoare not doing a great job of
managing their people remotely.
They're being extremely harsh onpeople.
They are not listening to theneeds of people and change is
very emotional.
Like I said, people get used totheir patterns.
They get into a rhythm.

(27:22):
It makes them feel very good.
They're very productive.
And then all of a sudden, youwalk out of the office one day
and you don't go back to youroffice and you stay home and you
work from home.
And people feel very threatenedby not being able to do their
jobs to the level that they usedto.
And it's very scary.
So they're going through thatgrief cycle, but they're also

(27:43):
experiencing a sense of loss ofproductivity and that loss of
expertise.
Because now for the first time,maybe in my whole career, I'm
expected to hold a meeting ortraining.
Maybe they've never even usedzoom or had to do a webinar.
So they're almost starting overagain.
And it's very frightening.
In addition to that, we have torealize people are trying to now

(28:06):
work from a home office, whichcould be a back bedroom in an
apartment.
It could be someone's deckoutside because they've got a
whole bunch of other stuff goingon inside the house.
We can't have this assumptionthat everybody loves working at
home and they've got this greatsetup and great wifi and a
beautiful office and a window.

(28:28):
And that's not what most peoplehave.
It's a kitchen table, or they'resitting on their floor with
their legs crossed, trying toget comfortable and work maybe
with a spouse and maybe a couplekids also at home, this is not
normal.
So leaders have to recognize,this is a whole person who has
had their whole way of workingripped from them.

(28:51):
And this is not a happy time fora lot of people.
So this is where you need theempathy that we were talking
about with emotionalintelligence is to be able to
say, Hey, how's it going?
I know this is so disruptive forall of us.
How are you doing?
What do you need?
And really listen.
Let them tell you what's reallygoing on.

(29:14):
Now, again, this is why you haveto have a good relationship with
your people.
And this should have beenhappening before March of 2020.
Those things were not managedwell before.
It's really, really showing upnow.
And so, you know, I always tryto be an optimist and say, it's

(29:34):
never too late.
So if you realize that youhaven't been doing the work,
you've to start somewhere.
And the best way to do that isto be a hundred percent
transparent and authentic withyour people in your organization
and say, you know what?
We s hould h ave done better.
And actually one of my clientsput a statement out that said,

(29:56):
we should have done better.
And we will do better.
You're seeing some toporganizations are putting
letters out there to thecommunity to say, Shame on us,
but here is what we want to do.
And it has to be genuine a nd itcannot be lip service.
It's not working anymore.
It's gotta be so genuine and soin depth and so authentic.

(30:19):
And this time, it's not justsomething we're going to check
off the list, but we're actuallyg oing t o measure it and say a
year from now, this is the waywe want to behave.
This is how we want to hire.
This is how we want to look.
This is what our board should belooking like.
Here's the type of customersthat we want to work and partner

(30:40):
with.
Again, this is all emotionalintelligence, authenticity,
empathy, caring, socialresponsibility.
And how about get some of youremployees involved in this new
change that you want to make andask them, Have we done a poor

(31:01):
job of accepting you?
Have we alienated you in anykind of way?
Where have we fallen short inequitable treatment?
Tell me what it was like whenyou started to work here as one
of the only black people in yourdepartment.
What was that like?
What could we do better?
That's the kind of conversation.

(31:23):
And so companies are revampingthe way that they think about
their people.
Like these are real people withreal feelings, really emotions,
and they have families.
Now we're seeing on zoom calls,people's dogs, kids, you know,
these are like real people.
People are so surprised to see,you know, their house.

(31:45):
Is that your dog and you havechildren?
Yes, I have children.

Cindy Sealls (31:59):
Millions of people have lost their jobs.
What advice would you give themabout how to pivot to maybe a
different way of making aliving?

Karen Gulliford (32:09):
If you remember 2008, 2009 and 2010 companies
were laying off people in thehundreds at the drop of a hat
and people were not preparedvery similar to what we're going
through right now.
So I'm not sure how the numberscompare.
I think the industries havechanged a little bit.
You know, now we're seeingairline industries, cruise

(32:32):
lines, you know, there's someindustries we don't know when
they're going to be back to thelevel that they were.
And at some point unemploymentand severance packages are going
to run out and people have tofind a job.
And so I'll share a little bitabout advice I guess I would
give just based on my experiencefrom about 10 years ago, when I

(32:56):
was involved in outplacementcounseling for Wright
management.
They were the company thattrained me how to deal with mass
unemployment.
So here's the thing for somepeople, job loss was actually
the best thing that everhappened to them.
Again, I look at the wholeperson, right?

(33:17):
We spend a third of our lifeworking, and many of us have
worked in jobs that we reallydon't like, and we're wasting
our lives.
Yes, the jobs providelivelihood.
They pay the bills.
Maybe we've sent our kids tocollege on these jobs that we've
absolutely hated.
You don't have that job anymore.

(33:38):
So you may be crying over themoney, but you're not crying
over the job.
So you gotta be able todistinguish between what you're
really grieving over.
Are you grieving because youdon't know how you're going to
send your kid to college or takethat vacation next summer, or
are you grieving?
Because that was my career.
That was my job.
So I think that we have to firstdetermine, are you working in

(34:04):
the area that you were meant tobe in?
Because I really see our careersas sort of our mission in life?
Yes, it provides income.
Yes.
we need to eat and pay bills andall that stuff, which is very
important.
At the same time, your work isan expression actually of
yourself.

(34:24):
And so one thing that we alwaysdid in outplacement coaching is
we would give people careerassessments because career
assessments are designed to helpyou take a look at your natural
tendencies and your interestsand how you like to be managed,
which is so important to havinga fulfilling job.

(34:46):
You can have a great job andhave a horrible boss.
That's not a good job.
You can also have a great bossand a great culture and great
work environment, but they'vegot you like sitting in a
cubicle, just like stampingpapers all day and you hate it.
So that's not really a great jobeither, even though the people
are really nice.
So you've got to find out whatis that environment in which I

(35:10):
thrive and what kind of workshould I be doing that is really
an expression of myself that Ican get up every morning and
feel like I have a purpose; thatI feel that I'm going to make an
impact on the world in some kindof way.
And that's what keeps us goingas human beings.
I don't know if you all readanything by Daniel Pink, but you

(35:32):
know, people have been doingmotivational research for years
and everybody thinks that moneyand titles make people want to
get up in the morning.
And he's like, no, that's notwhat it is.
It's three things, autonomy,sense of purpose, and feeling
like an expert in something.
Those are the three things thatmake us want to go to work every

(35:53):
day.
The more that you are in linewith how you work and what
you're good at the better jobthat you'll do.
Guess what the better job thatyou do, the better relationships
you have at work and the moresuccessful that you'll be, and
you'll be in high demand, peoplewill be calling you for job
offers.
You will never be without a jobbecause you love it and you're
good at it because you love it.

(36:13):
So they go together.
You have to really enjoy thework because every day is not
going to be perfect.
You're going to have stress.
You're going to have crazycoworkers every now and then
you're going to get a boss youdon't love, but you got to love
what you do and you gotta bedoing it in the right industry
and the right environment or itwon't work.
So I really believe in careerassessments, I've been using
Birkman for many, many years andBirkman's a wonderful

(36:34):
assessment.
It is always spot on.
I start giving it to people'skids around age 15 when they
even are thinking that theymight want to go to some kind of
school or college, or it's like,Hey, don't waste your money on
four years of college.
And you're going to end up in ajob you hate.
Let's see how you're builtinside.
Let's see what your personalityis like.

(36:55):
And then we'll build yourlearning and your training and
your education around that.
I believe it's never too late tofind that place where you can
have both.
Youcan have it all.
You can have a job that takescare of all of your financial
needs and you feel like this ispart of my life.
I'm going to be spending, youknow, 30 to 40% of my time at

(37:19):
this place.
It better be pretty decent placeto go to every day.
And I want to feel like I'mmaking an impact.
So I think that if you're facingjob loss again, you know, that
that money is going to run out,whether it's unemployment,
severance, or some kind ofcombination of the two, there
are a few things that I thinkwill really help you land that

(37:40):
spot.
And this is good for anybody.
Actually, if you are in a joband maybe you think your job's
pretty secure and you might befeeling a little stuck, this is
also what advice I would giveyou.
So the first thing is you wantto be really good at what you
do.
You need to have a craft.
So if I ask you Kelly or Cindy,what are you really good at?

(38:02):
You should be able to tell meI'm an expert in this, and you
need to continue to develop thatcraft.
So if you are a really, reallygood, IT engineer that craft is
changing and you have to go getmore training about every three
to four years, or you're not agood it engineer anymore.

(38:26):
So you have to know what thatcraft is.
And you have to be really goodto the point where people say,
now, if I want to know aboutnetwork engineering, I should go
see Kelley.
That's the kind of reputationyou want to have for how good
you are.
So that's the first thing.
If you don't feel that you'vereally been developing that
craft again, it's never toolate.

(38:47):
There are ways that you can getsome pretty free or cheap
training and get yourself up tospeed.
So if you were in a job andyou're not getting laid off,
don't let your skills go to thewayside.
Constantly be working on makingyourself a better employee.
Secondly is you have to have anetwork.

(39:09):
Most of the jobs that are outthere are not going to be posted
on Indeed.
Now everybody thinks if you needa job, you go to indeed.com and
you put the keywords in thereand you find a job and you apply
for an application and surelysomebody's going to call me,
right?
It's actually only about 10% ofpeople get jobs that way.
Most people get their jobsthrough word of mouth through

(39:30):
having a strong network.
Now you may not be a socialmedia person and you may be very
private, but I'm telling you ifyou're not on LinkedIn, no one's
ever going to find you.
They're never going to networkwith you.
And it's going to be verydifficult for someone to hire
you without seeing your LinkedInprofile.
Sorry, but that's just the waythe world is.
Now.
This is a very connected world.

(39:52):
If I get your job application oryour resume, whether it's
through an online portal orthrough another friend, I want
to look you up.
So you're the best way to get apersonal website on you is
linkedin.com.
So you have to know people.
You have to constantly connectand socialize with people and

(40:14):
you think, well, how can I dothat now we're in a pandemic?
Everybody's at home.
It's called zoom.
It's called texting.
It's called email pick up thephone.
So you have to stay connected.
And then if you're looking for ajob, tell your network what you
want to do.
Tell them that you're looking,you got to come out and just say
it.
Don't beat around the bus.
Say, Look, I think I might begetting laid off or I'm on

(40:37):
unemployment right now.
And I got to take a shift.
Um, this is what I'm thinkingabout doing.
Do you have, do you know anyother people that I should be
talking to?
And so I know this might be hardfor introverts.
I know introverts are like, Oh,I don't do networking.
Okay?
You don't have to like call 10people a day.
We're talking about it can beemail.

(40:59):
It can be just checking if youare on LinkedIn, you can send
people, send a person an InMailand just say, just want to let
you know my status.
What's going on.
This is what I'm I'm lookingfor.
I see that you're connected topeople at this company that I'm
really hoping to get into.
Could you give me some insight?
You gotta do that.
And the third thing, guess what?

(41:20):
We're coming back to emotionalintelligence.
You have to be a person thatpeople enjoy working with.
You have to be a good listener.
You have to have empathy forother people.
You have to care about otherpeople on your team; help other
people get better.
So it's not all about you.

(41:42):
You can't be one of those peoplethat blows your lid and gets mad
and angry and demanding andforceful on people because
people will remember that.
And that is your reputation.
Once your reputation is ruined,the other two factors that I
just mentioned won't meananything.
So you can be so good and suchan expert and so well trained

(42:04):
and such the go to person.
You can also have a very strongnetwork and people love
connecting with you and you'realways out there and you're
everywhere.
But if your reputation issomeone that does not have high
emotional intelligence, someonethat is unreliable inflexible,
not a very good listener, veryharsh mean to their employees.

(42:28):
That reputation is going tosupersede those other really
good traits.
And you wonder why you're notgetting a new job, or why is
somebody calling me or how comeI've been at this company for 12
years and nobody is recommendingme for that promotion.
It's one of those three factorsis missing either.
You haven't been keeping yourskills up.

(42:50):
You do not have a network.
Nobody knows you, nobody knowswhat you do.
Or three, you have a reputationof not having very good
emotional intelligence, andyou're not a good person to work
with.
If you can get that full packagetogether, you will find that
people land jobs quicker andthey keep the jobs that they
want longer.
They actually avoid being laidoff.

(43:12):
Those are the people that theykeep.
And if you're looking for a newjob, it will come out in your
job interviews because you'll beinterviewing very well.
So those are kind of my threethings that I have found work
every single time, whether youhave a job looking for a job or
just want to make a change.

Kelley Lynch (43:42):
I have known a number of people who age is a
real concern.
A.
It's a pandemic.
B you know, I've got my kid incollege or whatever else.
And so I don't have the money tojust make a lateral move or make
any kind of move.
I've got to sit here, change mydesk and just, you know, just

(44:03):
ride out the rest of my years,doing whatever I can do to
survive.
I can understand that peoplereally feel that way and that
that's a major impediment.
And at this point, if you'resomebody like that and you are
threatened with losing your job.
What do you say to people likethat?

Karen Gulliford (44:24):
So I went through this back in 2008, nine
and 10, where a large portion ofmy clients at the time were in
their fifties and were notexpecting to be laid off.
Now at the time I was probablyin my early forties.
So I was thinking, Ooh, I'm gladI'm not 54, but now I know what

(44:46):
that feels like and here's thething.
And I'll be very honest.
One mistake that the middle-ageprofessional makes is they talk
about their age all the time.
Talk about, I wish I couldretire.
And, I wish I could just getsomething to get me to age 62
and then I'm going to retire.

(45:06):
Like the whole dialogue isaround how old I am.
And you know, when you'relooking for a job and you start
interviewing or just startnetworking to start telling
people what you want to do,that's what people hear is age,
age, age.
And it sounds like I don't haveany runway left or it sounds

(45:31):
like I just want to do a littlesomething so I can just kinda
like make it until I just get alittle bit to that age.
And again, that's not whatemployers want.
They want people, it's not anage thing.
It's an energy thing.
Employers want people, who'vestill got some gusto and some

(45:54):
energy, a lot of ideas.
They're still innovative andthey're open to learning.
That's what an employer wants tohear.
I don't care if you're 19 or 70,everybody wants somebody with
some energy and some ideas andthat, Hey, I want to do
something kind of mentality.

(46:16):
So I had like, no, no words ininterviews that they could not
use.
Can never say the wordretirement.
You can never say I'm old.
You can never say I can't.
I'll be honest with you.
And this was for men and women,you are competing with 36 year
olds.
So you might have to spruce up alittle bit.

(46:36):
I mean, let's be honest.
This world is built around imageand the way people look,
especially now, you're going tobe doing interviews on zoom.
So care about yourself.
I'm not saying you got to go outand get a plastic surgery and go
dye your hair.
What I'm saying is look aliveand in your mind, see yourself

(46:57):
as still viable and that youstill care about yourself.
That means that as you age, youhave to get more rest.
You have to take vitamins.
You can't eat the way you usedto eat anymore.
You need to get some exerciseand some fresh air, because it
shows through.
Now that I'm in that age group,myself, I have to kind of coach

(47:17):
myself and say, Karen stoppedtalking about, Oh, we have nine
years left.
Not, you know, I had to stoptalking that way.
And instead, talk more about thevalue that I want to bring.
What I still want to accomplishin my career.
That might be a great way tostart an interview is to say,
you know, I'd been working forblank.
Number of years, here are thethings that I am so good at that

(47:39):
I would love to share.
And maybe I would like to mentorand support younger colleagues.
So you have to talk in terms ofvalue, what you can offer, what
you still want to learn.
I want to develop my skills.
It's never too late to get acertification.
And people like to see that.
They like to look at resumes andsee something probably in the

(48:00):
last five years that you'vereceived.
So that's what companies aremore interested in than your
gray hair.
They want people that areenergetic that have high
emotional intelligence, but alsoI think as you get older, one of
the best things that you canoffer is that mentorship and

(48:20):
leadership.
I think that as we get older, wemake better leaders.
We've seen more, we've donemore, we've had more stress,
we've seen pitfalls.
We can help and mentor otherpeople.
So it's not too late.
You can switch careers.
So what have you done in yourlife that applies to something
now?

(48:40):
And I think that you should domarket research and see where
the jobs are.
Look up jobs and read jobdescriptions and see what people
do.
Because again, if you've beenworking for 30, 35 years, you
know, job titles change andcompanies change, and there
might be, you're like, what areyou do?
What does that go?
Research it, go find out, askpeople what do they do?
And find jobs out there thatmaybe you never even thought of

(49:05):
that are perfect for yourskillset.
If you need some of thequalifications, find out how to
get them.
There's lots of ways to gettraining that are inexpensive
and short and not having to goback to college.
One thing that I do believe inis going back to your community
colleges.
Community colleges havewonderful certification courses
and short programs that help youget licenses or qualify you for

(49:30):
the workforce.
Here in Richmond, Virginia, theyhave something called Community
College Workforce Alliance,CCWA, and I've taught for them
before.
And basically what you're doingis you're helping working people
keep their skills fresh andyou're helping job changers.
People who all of a sudden havedecided they want to become a

(49:51):
chef, or they want to be a realestate agent.
Or, you know, maybe you don'twant to go to college.
Maybe you're 19 years old.
You just got out of high school.
I don't want to do the four yearthing.
You can get your license inplumbing, electrical.
You know, these are careers thatyou can have for a very long
time and make really good moneyor even start your own business.
And one last thing I want to sayabout career job change.

(50:13):
As we get older, also, we makegreat consultants because of all
this experience we have.
Over the years, you've probablydone more than one thing.
The average person now has fourto six job changes.
So think about all of thosedifferent roles and jobs that
you've had.
You've picked up differentskills.
And by the time you're in yourmid fifties, you know what you

(50:33):
don't ever want to do again, andyou know what you love to do.
And so you can offer thoseconsulting skills and you can
package those skills and open upyour business.
This is the gig economy.
The world of work is changing, Ibelieve, forever.
So thinking about a nine tofive, you know, with the golden
watch at the end, and they'regoing to throw me a party and

(50:56):
get a cake, it's changing.
If you're young in spirithealthy, energetic, have a lot
of great experience and skillsand people are always picking
your brain and always asking youhow to do something.
It's a business.
You can charge for yourexpertise that you've gained
over the years.
So that's my advice.

(51:17):
I know it's a tough environment.
I know it's hard.
There's not one answer that Ihave.
I think every person has toindividually find out what their
next place of life is going tobe.
But again, we have to change andwe have to accept that there's a
new way to go to work.

Kelley Lynch (51:41):
Tanvir.
We missed you last week.
How are you?

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (51:46):
I'm okay.

Kelley Lynch (51:49):
You're just, okay.

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (51:51):
Yeah.
Well, we have a heat wave nowthat the pandemic is still going
on at the same force we haveabout a quarter of the country
underwater.
This is like one of the majorflooding in decades.
And imagine with this pandemicgoing on, how difficult it is to

(52:15):
reach people or get relief topeople.
Wow.
What I gather from the news thatyou have a different kind of
flooding.

Cindy Sealls (52:24):
Yes, we do.
We have a flood.
A flood of misinformation,corona virus, people loosing
their unemployment benefits,maybe people losing their homes,
people losing their jobs.
It's just, we have all kinds offloods going on here.

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (52:44):
Man, you are in trouble.
We never thought you'd get tothat point.

Kelley Lynch (52:50):
Well, you're the self proclaimed disaster expert.
So give us some tips.
How do you guys manage this allthe time?

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (52:57):
You see for us, what dependent it
brought is nothing new to us.
It's a different kind ofdisaster, but it's something
that we already have seen manytimes either it's a flat or it's
a site loan.
Something will come maybetomorrow, maybe day after

(53:20):
tomorrow, or maybe next month.
You know, when you talk aboutlosing unemployment insurance,
we don't have anything likethat.
So the day we start earning, westart saving because we know
that next day I may lose my jobor this source of earning would

(53:44):
vanish because of any sorts ofdisaster, whether it's a manmade
disaster or a natural disaster,that is always on the back of
our mind.
So we start saving for the rainyday and it goes from, you know,
the lowest segment of thesociety to the highest segment

(54:05):
of the society.
That's why, when a person gets ajob, you'd want to buy something
that is secure, that he can incash when he is in trouble.
So the idea of savings is evenbuilt into our purchase
decisions.
We have this system of buyingthings that are actually a kind

(54:30):
of savings.
Like for people in the lowertier of income group, they would
buy a television, not toentertain themselves, but the
television would be aninvestment that they can
liquidate when they need money.

Kelley Lynch (54:49):
Does that mean they don't use it?

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (54:51):
They use it, but the second hand reason
has value.
But the primary goal of buying atelevision is not the
entertainment.
It's one sort of savings.
You have an item that you cansell it off.
When you need the money, look athow we buy cars.

(55:12):
You know, we only buy Toyotasbecause they had, you know, they
have a very good resale value.
Any other brand you buy, youknow, when you go to sell the
next day, people would not buythat car more than half the
price.
But if it's a Toyota, even afterusing for two, three years, you
probably would make same amountof money or even sometimes more.

(55:34):
When people build their housesin the villages, even if they
can afford a concrete built orbrick built house, they prefer a
tin house because you can takeout the tins and sell it off if
you need it.

Kelley Lynch (55:52):
It's kind of like what you told me when I was
there.
And you know, at that point Ithought I was going to be
staying with you for probablythe duration of the pandemic,
having no idea that it wouldlast this long.
And I said to you, but have yougot enough food?
Have you guys, you know, stockedaway enough to make sure that we

(56:15):
can all eat for the next month,at least.
And you were like, don't worryabout it.
And you told me about thehandful of rice.
Do you remember?

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (56:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, this is a habitthat's kind of so ingrained into
our culture.
You know, the women who takecare of the family, every meal,
they cook, they take a handfulof rice, put it in a separate
jar.

(56:46):
That rice is like her savingsfor the rainy days.
When, especially in thevillages, you don't get rice all
the time.
So in those days that in a safejar is like the main course.
So it's this, this idea of bitby bit, you keep on saving.
And same thing goes with thehousehold expenses, especially

(57:09):
in the villages, the women, theytake out a small section of the
household expenses and then putit away.
Sometimes it's like as much as10 Taka.

Kelley Lynch (57:21):
So how much is 10 Taka these days?

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (57:23):
a quarter it's like 25 cents.
Yeah.
And they would do it every day,you know, three 65 days a year.
And those small bits and piecesbecomes quite a handsome amount.
The other thing that they do islike they form groups within the

(57:44):
community, like 10 women or 15women or 20 and get together,
they all bring in their savings,put it together to make a
substantial amount.
And then they loan it out tomembers within themselves or to
their husbands to start abusiness.
And then they get a good returnon that.

(58:05):
Sometimes they invest the moneythemselves.
Like they buy chicken, they buya goat or a cow.
And for them it's cheaper thantaking a loan from a formal
institution.
And it's there right withinthem.
And they're the ones who aredeciding where to spend the
money and how to spend themoney.

Kelley Lynch (58:25):
And so if you have a disaster, if you want to start
a business, if you have anillness in the family, if you
need to pay for a wedding,anything that comes up, you can
access that money that you'vecollectively saved these other
people.

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (58:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's that that's like theirinsurance for the rainy day.
We don't have any formalgovernment back or insurance,
unemployment insurance, butthat's like a very good
insurance within the community.
And it's really okay.

Cindy Sealls (58:59):
So Bangladesh is a libertarian country.
I've just decided.
The Republicans and libertarianswould love this story.
I'm telling you.
You should make YouTube videos.
I'm serious, man.
You'd be on Fox news.

(59:22):
I mean really, because that'swhat I talk about all the time.
But I think the difference, Ithink the difference is you guys
understand that you have to bein community.
So it's not about theindividual, it's about the
community.
So you're doing this asindividuals to help the entire

(59:43):
group.

Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (59:45):
As much as we like the individual
freedom.
If you, if you don't have thecommunity, you can survive.

Kelley Lynch (59:54):
I wonder if with climate change with the
pandemic, one of the new normalsthat we're looking at is a new
reality.
That looks a lot more like thereality that maybe Bangladesh
knows or our grandparents knewliving through the depression,

Cindy Sealls (01:00:15):
think about it are the taxes that we pay or a
portion of the taxes that wepay, basically our community
fund to help people who arestruggling.
So we have an institutionalizedversion of their micro economic
system.
Right.

Kelley Lynch (01:00:34):
Right.
I guess I hadn't really thoughtabout it that way.

Cindy Sealls (01:00:38):
Yeah.
Because our taxes go to supportemergency management.
It goes, It was to supportpeople who have had, You know,
tragedies in their lives.
Um, hurricanes, tornadoes.
That's our community fund thatwe pay into and where we

(01:00:58):
contribute to.
And then when these people overhere needed, they get it.
When those people over therehave something happened to them,
they get it.
You know, as human beings, wedon't all like each other.
We don't all get along Andthey're taking that money or
whatever.
And then they might give it overto Suzy or Sally Sagitta, she's

(01:01:23):
a pest, but that's the rule ofthe group.
Everybody contributes.
And then when Sagitta has aproblem, you help her out.
So this whole idea of, you know,I don't want my money to go and
help those people, or I don'twant my money to go to that
thing as a community, we have torealize that community decisions

(01:01:48):
might not always be what we,something that we agree with,
you know, but, but we've agreedto be in this community.
So this is the way it is.
And if we want to get out of thecommunity, we can certainly go
and live in another country.
But in this community, we'veagreed that we all put into this
pot and the government makesdecisions, the government, which

(01:02:14):
is us because we vote in therepresentatives that are in the
government and the government,you know, makes decisions.
That's just how it goes.
I don't know if we all realizethat.

Kelley Lynch (01:02:30):
I never thought of it that way.
And you know what, that makes mea lot happier about paying my
taxes.

Cindy Sealls (01:02:36):
Yeah.
You're putting your all, you'redoing, putting a little rice in
the cup, throw it in there.
Never knowing when you mightneed it.

Kelley Lynch (01:02:44):
That's a good way to think about it.

Cindy Sealls (01:02:46):
You know, it's really about a mindset of
community, right?
We're all in this together.
Sometimes we don't all agree,but it's like 10 veer said it's
impossible for an individual tomake it in the world on their
own.
We need community.
It's the only way to make itthrough anything.
Especially a pandemic.

Kelley Lynch (01:03:15):
Speaking of work, next week, I have a gig.

Cindy Sealls (01:03:19):
That's where the gig economy is that where it
comes from chapter is a gigabyteeconomy.

Kelley Lynch (01:03:27):
Gig.
We're not singing and dancing,but you've got, you've got a
gig.
So that means I'm not going tobe here.
That means neither will Cindyand neither will Tam bear, but
we will be working on thepodcast is just that it won't
come out till the followingweek.
We've got an awesome episodeplanned with Steve.
The historian cannot wait tohear what Steve, the historian

(01:03:50):
has to say.
We hope that you'll join us forthat one.
In the meantime, we hope thatyou'll subscribe to the podcast
because that means you getnotified the minute that I
upload it.
And sometimes I'm a bit late onthe upload.
So it's best to subscribe.
That means, you'll know it'sthere.
You don't have to wait 24 hoursfor it to show up in iTunes.
Review.

(01:04:10):
There's a little review buttondown there.
I know it's hard to find, butit's down by the stars.
You can hit some stars, but wereally also love to hear from
you and hear what you thinkabout the podcast.
I mean, there's no point doingall this work and I'm telling
you great fun, but it takes alot of time.

Cindy Sealls (01:04:29):
And we were actually gonna hire some people
to write reviews for us, butsince we don't make any money on
the podcast, we didn't want towaste money doing that.
So we would rather have peoplewho actually listened to the
show and weren't just paid$5 perreview by us to write that

(01:04:49):
review.
So we're an honest podcast too.

Kelley Lynch (01:04:53):
That's right.
We're honest.
And we would honestly love tosee you back here in a couple of
weeks until then take care anddo follow us on Instagram.
It's a new normal podcast.
Bye bye.