December 10, 2020 • 54 mins
Is Santa real? You bet. These days he goes by the name Mike Gray, a retired jack of all trades who lives not at the North Pole, but in a recycled house in the Arizona desert—when he’s not with the Lakota on Pine Ridge or the Seri people in Mexico. He's given up the red suit for a work shirt, jeans and a straw hat. And he's stopped making toys in favor of making gardens, building houses and furnishing clinics for people who need them. The sleigh filled with gifts? He traded it in for a van full of tools he also uses to carry people and art—and he is the gift.
You can watch the film on the Seri (Comcaac) people that Mike mentions in the podcast on YouTube. It's called Seri-People Live by the Desert and Sea
And while I wouldn't normally reference Wikipedia, the entry on the Seri people has some basic information for the mildly curious as well as a lot of resources for anyone interested in a deeper dive.
Theme music: Fragilistic by Ketsa; licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0
Other music in this episode by Podington Bear from the albums Meet Podington Bear and Liquid Gold; Licensed under CC BY-NC
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Gray (00:01):
When someone asks you for something you can't say, no.
You can't say, well, no, that'smine.
I like it.
You can't say no, I can't affordit.
Or you can't say no, you don'tdeserve it.
Or no, you didn't earn it.
Or, you know, you just, you justgive.
Kelley Lynch (00:28):
Hi, I'm Kelly Lynch.
Welcome to A New Normal, apodcast about re-imagining a
future that starts with each oneof us.
Radical giving it's the theme ofthe season and describes in two
words, the life of our gueststhis week, Mike Gray.
It's not at all a stretch to saythat Mike has a lot in common
(00:51):
with that other giver we thinkof at this time of the year,
Santa Claus.
Now, given that this is anauditory and not a visual
medium, I need to paint apicture of Mike for you.
Imagine Santa, his big whitebeard, longish locks, laughing
eyes, a little soft around themiddle.
(01:13):
Skip the red suit.
Mike has on shirt and jeans, astraw cap, and a bandana, some
beads around his neck.
Mike lives, not at the Northpole, but in a recycled house in
the Arizona desert.
That is when he's not with theLakota on Pine Ridge or the Siri
people in Mexico.
(01:35):
And instead of a sl eigh f illedwith gifts, Mike drives a van
full of tools and sometimespeople, and art.
And he is the gift.
There's real wisdom here anddeep humanity.
This is one of thoseconversations that will walk
alongside me for the rest of mylife.
(01:58):
Mike Gray, it is a fantasticpleasure to have you on the
podcast.
We met, gosh, it was like eightyears ago, now in McDowell
County, West Virginia.
We were kind of chaperones, Isuppose.
Mike Gray (02:13):
I was an assistant director of work, I guess.
That was my job title and youwere the official official
photographer.
Kelley Lynch (02:25):
And low-level chaperone.
Even at that time, I don't thinkI ever really known exactly what
it is that you do.
I mean, I have this kind ofvague idea.
So when people ask you, what doyou do?
Do you have an answer?
Mike Gray (02:42):
My answer is always contextual.
It kind of depends on where Iam.
You know, this is America.
Everybody asks you what you dobecause that defines them
quickly.
And so, you know, some days I'man art dealer.
Some days I'm a junk dealer.
It's just kind of depends.
But what I basically do is aconcept of radical hospitality,
(03:06):
where I have sort of given up mytime, my life to help other
people wherever they are.
And that has led me down theroad to many places.
But usually when I go lookingfor the poorest people, the
(03:27):
people with most need, they'reusually indigenous people at the
end of the road who areunderserved.
And so I've spent most of mytime now working with two tribes
in North America, one in Mexicoand one in South Dakota in the
United States.
So Pine Ridge, one of thepoorest per capita counties in
(03:51):
the country, since I startedtaking censuses of these things
and a small isolated tribe onthe coast of Mexico, on the Gulf
of California, known as theComcaac, who have their own
homeland, but like the Lakota,it has been severely restricted
and they were nomadic peoplesoriginally.
(04:14):
And so they have had to learn anew way of adapting to
circumstances that forced themto change the way they live.
And so I focused on them justbecause you can't help everybody
that has continues to lead medown.
Many different avenues ofhelping because I get asked for
(04:39):
many different things ondifferent days because the
community decides what theywant.
And part of the problem with alot of help given to
communities, the giversdetermine what they need and
just set about doing thatwithout ever asking the
community, what they need orwhat they want.
(05:01):
And whether those two things arerealistic for the community.
And so say some days I'mdrilling water wells.
Some days I'm planting gardens.
Some days I'm selling art atsome of the biggest Native
American Indian art shows in theUS in the West.
Kelley Lynch (05:21):
Those are really different skills and really
different abilities.
And I mean, when I saw you, youwere propping up the foundation
of someone's house and kind ofmaking sure that was stable and
rebuilding.
These are not skills thateverybody has.
I mean, how do you do all ofthese things?
Mike Gray (05:45):
You know, as I'm sitting here thinking now what
I'm thinking is when people askme what I do, I want to reply
with the nuts and bolts answer.
Yeah, you know, we replacedfoundations and floors in houses
where they've rotted away, or,you know, I build houses for
people who don't have them.
(06:05):
Sometimes they're log cabins.
Sometimes they're straw houses,you know.
But these are the nuts and boltsissues.
And the real answer to that ispeople have been building houses
without rulers and hammers andelectrical tools forever, since
they came out of the caves.
And even the caves, they addedonto and built rock walls on
(06:30):
ledges in front of them andbuilt doors and had ladders and,
you know, to get up to them.
And so, you know, all of thisstuff is within reach.
If one just takes the time toask some questions.
And now I do internet researchwhen I have to do something, you
know.
So the nuts and bolts is reallyjust, you learn how to learn and
(06:51):
just whatever people ask you todo, you go talk to an expert,
you read a book, you look forhelp and try and do that one
thing.
Many of the things I do in thesedays is things I never thought
about doing before, didn't studyin school, thought I had no
aptitude for, but my philosophyhas always been to do it to
(07:14):
local community standards.
Don't expect perfection, unlessthere's a building inspector
coming and, you know, just helpmake it better than it was.
And in doing that, we learn howto make it better.
The next time we make it or whatwe may need to add to it.
And so I'm really not afraid totry anything that I'm asked to
(07:39):
do, but I won't say they've allbeen successes.
Sometimes you fail and that'slife, but it doesn't hold you
back.
You just say, well, what do wedo next time?
How can we do it better?
Or was this a bad idea to beginwith?
And sometimes that is a thingtoo.
(08:00):
Let me tell a story and it mayexplain things.
On one of my earliest projectswith the Comcaac people in
Mexico, I partnered with ascience class at a charter
school in Vail Arizona, wherethe woman teacher was real
(08:25):
excited about compostingtoilets.
She had just read a book and Ihad had some experience with
composting toilets when I didsome projects in Nicaragua.
The Seris don't have runningwater.
Seris is the common name of theComcaac.
And there are two villages andwe were working in the Southern
(08:49):
village of Punta Chuceca w hereI talked to people there.
We kind of set it up.
I got a family to let me build acomposting toilet at their house
and be an example that otherpeople could look at and see how
it worked out.
And so all of the students hadto read this book and we all
(09:10):
studied and all learned allabout it, all the science we
could on it.
And went there and built just adeluxe little outhouse with a
composting toilet, a buckettoilet option.
We built a nice plywood box tosit over the bucket.
(09:33):
So the bucket was hidden and hada seat on it and did a concrete
floor so people could also useit as a bath house.
You can go in there, carry somehot water, get naked, take a
bath.
And you know, it had a slidingwindow on it, door, air vents,
(09:54):
you know.
Just made as nice a thing as wecould.
And everybody came in thevillage and they looked at it
and said Oh, that's nice.
That's nice.
And then I kept going back tothat village because one of the
things I do when I introduce aproject into a village, I make a
commitment to a long-termconnection.
We're not just going to likeparachute in and do a project
(10:15):
and you'll never hear from usagain.
I'd try to partner with acommunity.
So I was sitting one day on alittle hill outside the village
and watching the sun come upwith a local guy.
And what I saw was people wouldcome out of their houses one or
a woman leading kids, or, youknow, a couple of people at a
time.
And then they come out of thehouse, go down the road, go out
(10:37):
in the desert, in the bush.
And so all of the area aroundthe village was covered with
used toilet paper and messes.
And this is where we kind offirst hit upon this idea of
trying composting toilets.
So people wouldn't be trashingthe desert like this, and it
would be more convenient.
Anyway, we had made thiscommitment and we decided to do
(11:00):
it and continuing to go back andfollowing up, everybody was
coming to me and asking for usto come and build an outhouse at
their house.
And I was like, that's cool.
You know, we could, we couldbuild a lot of them, but it was
a village of about 600 peoplethat we're talking a lot
outhouses.
We're talking a lot of weeks.
(11:21):
We're talking a lot of time.
And, and so I sort of simplifiedthis into just building the box
that sits over the bucket,giving them a bucket out of box
with a toilet lid on it.
And then I can put this in thecorner of their house and, you
know, put it out in the yard,behind a tree, you know, put it
(11:41):
anywhere they wanted to.
And people were really happywith that.
And we got more requests formore of these.
And at the time I was alreadynoticing we had two problems in
the desert things don't compost.
Well, you have to add water.
You have to tend to carefully.
You have to add green stuff andbrown stuff and a series we're
really working at thiscomposting thing very well.
(12:04):
It wasn't really wasn't doingwell.
We couldn't find local materialto cover it with.
So we tried chopped up seaweedand all kinds of things.
And there's just not that muchgreen material around there.
And so I started following upthis project and other houses
just kind of seeing how it wasgoing for other people.
(12:25):
And I was finding they'd startedusing the box for a side table
and they were using the bucketsto haul water.
Except for some very old peoplewho really love the bucket
because their knees were bad andthey were having trouble
squatting in the bushes.
And so they just dug a holeunder the box and used it that
(12:50):
way.
And then I had a chance to go upto the Northern village of
Desemboque, which is more rural,more traditional, t he harder to
get to.
And I found there, that thestate had come in and given
everyone a composting toiletkit.
These were custom builtfiberglass outhouse that sat on
(13:16):
two big tubs that you'd dig ahole and you'd set the tubs in.
You screwed down the house ontop of one, use it until it was
full and then you picked up thehouse and put it on top of the
other one, composted the firstone while you use the second
one.
And I'm thinking, well, youknow, if the government's going
(13:36):
to give everybody one of these,why am I building them?
And so I went around askingpeople, you know, how do you
like this?
Is this is a good thing?
They said yes one of the bestthings the government ever gave
me and I said, well, how's itworking out?
Are you guys composting?
What do you use for greenmaterials?
And they showed me that theytook the part that's supposed to
(13:57):
go underground that you'resupposed to poop in and they set
them in front of their house.
And so when the water truck cameby, they filled them with water
and they were using them forwater containers.
And that was why it was animportant thing to find out.
They really just wanted thebuckets all along.
They just wanted the plasticbuckets.
I could have went around handingout$5 buckets to everybody and
(14:20):
they would have been thrilled.
We didn't have to go to all thatwork.
It was a language thing weweren't communicating well when
we were talking about what theyneeded and what they got.
And so I learned a whole lot onthat.
It completely changed the way weworked after that.
What came to me is I really hadto spend more time with the
(14:41):
people to understand thembetter.
Both of us were speaking in asecond language as we were
communicating, and that's hardenough to begin with.
And I had to make it moreexperiential for myself so I
could experience their life.
What it's like to go haul water,to go out in the bushes to use
(15:01):
the bathroom to live.
How do they cook?
What do they eat?
Where does their food come from?
How do they come about it?
What are the economics of thevillage?
And just do a lot of hangingout, getting to know them
experientially and just sort offorget everything I knew in a
book or everything people toldme that they thought that they
(15:23):
needed.
Or it'd be great if you did aproject like this, or, you know.
We were looking at things thatreally weren't that important to
them in their everyday life-really weren't that useful.
Not that big a deal.
No matter what it meant for theenvironment or the big picture,
it had to be more personal.
Kelley Lynch (15:55):
You've had 25 years hanging out.
How does it work?
Because you live in Arizona, butyou travel down there.
How often?
Mike Gray (16:09):
This has been a crazy year for everybody, but I left
there tending to go right backand COVID happened.
And they closed the border andthe tribe closed off their
territory and did not allowpeople to come in.
Same thing happened on PineRidge and they're still closed
down.
One of the things I do, I mean,this is the first thing.
(16:31):
Any outsider who wants to helpdoes is to start bringing
secondhand goods in for peoplewho need clothes and dishes and
pots and pans and all of thisstuff.
And so one of the things we haddone, working with Prescott
college, primarily, they werethe head of this and Laura Monti
(16:54):
, who was a doctor, specializingcommunity health had organized a
clinic and each village and wasset aside, remodeled them.
So whether there was places toisolate people from the village
and treat them and got oxygengenerators, so people could be
(17:16):
treated and not have to go tothe hospitals in the big city
where most of the people nevercame back.
I had sheets and bedding andpillows and things that the
clinic needed to set up forpeople.
So they just helped themselvesto my store.
And that was my contribution tothat helping load the trucks
(17:39):
here in Patagonia to go down.
But that's still one of thethings I do is bring things from
the US that are unavailable atMexico.
And things for the fishermen.
There are really two ways tomake a living in Desemboque.
I kind of settled on the moretraditional, harder to get to
(18:03):
village because I thought theyneeded more help because they're
smaller and more isolated.
But, in hanging out with thefishermen, I found that fish
finders can make them moreproductive.
GPS's can make them moreproductive.
VHF radios and antennas can makethem safer when they're out on
(18:24):
the water.
And some boat doesn't come backor they're looking for somebody
or to make connections.
And so fishing tackle and thingsfor hunters.
Some of these things are just onavailable or unaffordable in
Mexico.
Right now, big horn, sheep huntsare the biggest income line for
(18:48):
the Seri tribe.
They sell big horn sheep permitsto big game hunters who come
from out of the country and paylots of money for this.
And when this first started, theguides were happy with like old
army camouflage clothes, but nowto look more professional and to
(19:10):
be more respected by the outsidehunters, they want higher-end
clothing and good binoculars,and rangefinders and portable
radios and just a lot of stuff.
So this is another sideline thatwe've developed i s just
infrastructure stuff.
Y ou k now, t here's pots andpans for those who need them
(19:31):
frying pans, but if you need it,w e've got higher end stuff t
oo.
Kelley Lynch (19:42):
Let's go back to that idea.
You mentioned earlier aboutradical hospitality.
Tell me what that means in yourmind.
What is radical hospitality?
Mike Gray (19:54):
I guess I would just be able to define it as when
someone asks you for somethingyou can't say, no, You can't
say, well, no, that's mine.
I like it.
You can't say no, I can't affordit.
Or you can't say, no, you don'tdeserve it.
Or no, you didn't earn it.
Or, you know, you just, justgive.
(20:21):
It doesn't matter what peoplehave done, what people have done
to you, whether you think peopleare trying to take advantage of
you or are asking for thingsthat they shouldn't be asking
for.
You just try and give them anopportunity to better themselves
and move beyond where they are.
(20:44):
And so, you'd have drug addictscome in and ask for money and
you give it to them.
You didn't know if they're going t o buy food or drugs but
they asked you had it.
You gave it to them.
This is culturally appropriatehistorically i n tribes.
(21:05):
And this w as another area whereI've learned a lot from them,
for the Lakota or the Northwesttribes.
Y ou practice giveaways.
The Lakota practice giveaways.
You w ere respected by how muchyou gave away, not by how much
you had.
And people who had more thanthey could use or more than they
needed were not liked.
(21:31):
And so it was sort of okay tosteal a television from somebody
who had two of them, cause hecouldn't watch them both anyway.
And so this frustrated me a lotin the beginning until I kind of
learned to let go of this someand understand this better.
(21:52):
You have to be willing to giveaway everything.
My backstory is I was analcoholic and drug user.
And when I quit, I was hangingaround with a Catholic priest
(22:13):
and a lot of Quakers.
And this Catholic priest toldme, he says, are you really
ready to be a Christian?
Because that means you lose allcontrol of your life.
If God comes and asks you to dothis, you can't say, No.
You're not a Christian if yousay, No.
You gotta be willing to do it.
(22:34):
And that may take you places youdon't want to go.
So that was a big decision thatI made a long time ago.
Okaym, if God wants me to dothis, and it seems right, and I
test this.
With Quakers, they have whatthey call a Clearness Committee,
(22:57):
where you sit down in worshipfulsilence and consider this
question of, is this a realleading or is it just something
you want to do?
You know, where did this comefrom?
Is it really God asking you todo this?
Or just your ego?
But you kind of tests theseleadings with your community.
(23:23):
And if they seem realistic andsome people could say, they
sound crazy, but you know, ifit's a real leading, you have to
trust that God is taking youthere for a reason and it's
going to be okay.
But for us in America, ourculture makes it so difficult
(23:48):
sometimes to let go of thosethings and not buy into that
money measurement of success.
I don't want to get mean aboutit, but you know, just
selfishness, the greed, themeritocracy.
You know, why should I give yousome of my money when you don't
(24:11):
work as hard as I do, or youdon't work or won't work, or
whatever reason we come up with.
Why does one person merit morethan another person?
Kelley Lynch (24:25):
So how do you think about those things?
I mean, because you think aboutit obviously in a very different
way, right?
Mike Gray (24:31):
Well, I still do it in a guarded way because if they
want my van, if I give them myvan, then I'm out of business,
you know?
I can't do the other helpingthings.
And so I've just sort of couchedit in a way of, you know, I'm
using this right now and it'simportant to me and no, you
(24:55):
can't have it.
Or, I have other plans for thisthing rather than giving it to
you I think it would be moreuseful to someone else or more
people will benefit if I give itto this person rather than
giving it to you.
And so some of this stuff isself rationalized, but it's that
(25:17):
survival instinct.
If I give it all away, then I'mnot worth anything to anybody
else.
Or I feel like I have purposefor having these things, or I
wouldn't have them.
And I just kind of set it up sowhen I die, it's all, you know,
you guys could have it all then,but right now I'm using it.
(25:40):
It's a struggle.
I mean, it is a struggle.
Kelley Lynch (25:45):
One of the things that we've been, I have this,
this group of people that aspart of my own kind of idea of
being the change that you wouldlike to see.
I mean, one of the changes Iwant to see is to see people
talking to each other who don'tnecessarily agree with each
other, because I think there's alot of value in that.
(26:06):
And we can learn a lot fromother people, this idea of
radical hospitality, even justsharing in the form of taxes
often comes up and your point ofview is just so it's so
radically different.
Mike Gray (26:27):
Well, this is another thing that hanging out with the
people has helped me tounderstand better.
There are lots of reasons why Iended up settling on the Lakota
and the Comcaac as people tohang out with.
But one of the reasons isthey're both nomadic peoples
historically nomadic peoples whoranged long distances annually,
(26:52):
who are now forced to live on avery small parcel of land in a
way that just totally destroyedtheir old traditions,
lifestyles, food ways, justeverything that they ever knew,
except their thinking.
They continue to think in theold ways.
(27:14):
This set me to try andunderstand this better, because
these are things that work fornomadic peoples, but don't work
for settled peoples and economicsystems is one of the big ones
that doesn't work for nomadicpeoples.
(27:35):
When a people are used to goingalong and for the Comcaac they
were known as the sea turtlehunters.
They would follow the seasonalmigration of the sea turtles up
and down the coast.
And they were so plentiful atthat time, you could just kind
of spot one, jump in the water,wrestle it to the sea and build
(27:57):
a fire and you'd have meat foreverybody for days, you could
dry some for later.
And like the Lakota, you know,they would have a buffalo hunt.
Buffalo feed a lot of people anddry a lot of meat for later.
And so your value was determinedsomewhat by how skilled you were
(28:20):
as a hunter or food preparer,maybe as a hide preparer.
But you know, there was reallyno economy.
People didn't give, buy, tradethings much, except for the few
things values that they madebows and arrows knives.
You know, this stuff just didn'thappen for either of these
(28:43):
people until colonialism.
The guy named McGee andanthropologists went out toward
the Smithsonian to study theSeris in around in the early
1890s.
And he came back in his report.
He said he saw no evidence ofsteel, iron, metal use among the
(29:06):
Seris in the 1890s while we'rechasing Geronimo around the
border with repeating rifles andmachine guns.
We've had the Civil War and theSeris they're in the Stone Age
still, at this time.
And so I have run across oldartifacts in the desert, like
(29:27):
there's a bone awl.
The knee bone, leg bone of adeer or a big horn sheep is what
they use for an awl to makebaskets with.
And I've found these, which wereinscribed with a mark.
Before Seris started to writethey could still make a mark.
And so they had figured out howto mark the tools that were
(29:48):
theirs to eliminate thesedisputes.
And so it could be on theirknife or their Bow or their awl
or whatever.
They did have things that theyowned the individual owned, and
it was theirs and they hadrights to keep it, but these
were essential items that theyneeded to work with, but they
(30:12):
made things that were beneficialto other people because a woman
made a basket and you could haulseeds around or cactus fruit and
so it was useful for everybody.
And so nobody messed with herawl.
So, the way we live now is justcompletely opposite of that.
Everything that comes down theroad is owned by someone, either
(30:35):
the maker, the wholesaler, theretailer, or the ultimate buyer
or consumer, you know?
It's got somebody's mark on it,which changes, but somebody has
got a Mark all the way down theline from beginning to end until
it hits the trash and thennobody wants it.
But it's a different way ofliving that one has set aside,
(30:58):
what is community property?
What should be communityproperty?
And what do I have a right toown apart from the community
that's mine.
And why do I have the right toown that rather than make it
available to the community orsomeone who might use it better
(31:18):
or to more good use.
Kelley Lynch (31:21):
And so this is not necessarily changed, even though
they are definitely moresettled.
I mean, settled now?
Mike Gray (31:31):
They are more settled.
And so they can't do this in thesame way or don't because they
get no reinforcement from it.
But still their thinking is inthe old ways.
(31:57):
I see this more with the Lakotathan the Comcaac maybe because I
haven't had the same kind ofgeek conversations because of
the language barrier.
But where I see it most is wheresocieties have always depended
on people like me- go betweens,people who go back and forth.
But one of the things we've seenin particularly amongst the
(32:20):
Comcaac people were Mexicansfrom outside, who came in and
married into the tribe and howthat changed the economy.
I think more than anything i sbecause they come in and
Mexicans are very good aboutfamily and connections.
And so these fishermen came inwith money to invest in boats
(32:45):
and houses, and they marriedIndian women.
So they could have rights tolive in the village and fish.
And suddenly they k ind o fjumped up to the top of the, you
know, the elite moneymakers.
But without that old idea ofsharing fish with everybody who
(33:09):
needed a fish, these fish were there.
These fish were going to amarket because they had to sell
the fish because they had tohave cash because they had to
buy gas and radios and GPS's andfish finders, so they can get
more fish.
And so that they could get atruck.
And so that they could start amiddleman business.
(33:30):
And so they could buy fish fromeverybody and take one trip to
town and sell it all.
And on one tank of gas.
And so they brought thisdifferent way of thinking about
the economy into their village,to compete with people who are
still thinking in the old ways.
And even now when the boats comein, the Mexican boats come in
(33:52):
and they pay somebody to comedown to the water and clean and
gut the fish and prepare them togo to market.
And they pay the women a littlebit and a lot of women, that's
how they make their dailyspending and money.
And in the Seri boats, thefamilies come down and they just
help.
Everybody's kin and everybodytakes a couple of fish home for
the family to eat.
(34:13):
It's kind of the same thing inone way, but it's more a
generosity and a recognition ofwho needs it.
And that they're important andnot just a wage earner, but
they're their family.
Both tribes have a very distinctClan system based on an extended
(34:36):
family.
And that's good in some waysit's bad in some other ways.
A person's first loyalty is totheir clan or extended family.
And this creates problems forgetting everybody on board for
the same idea.
And I think this is part of theproblem in America is we're
seeing people who are more,their affiliation is more with
(34:58):
Republicans or Democrats than itis with America.
And so as we sort of break upinto these clan and warring
factions and sort of lose sightof the big picture that may help
us out in the short run, but inthe long run, it just leads to
trouble.
And so I have to kind of dancearound this a little bit in the
(35:19):
village, as we do every dayhere, you know, Mexico is kind
of the near extreme libertariancountry.
It has democracy.
It has a functioning democracy.
People can vote.
People have power.
But if you have enough money,none of that matters.
Presidents are assassinated.
Cartels takeover.
(35:40):
If you've got enough money andguns, you can pretty much run
your world that you can controlin the way you want to do it.
And that trickles down throughsociety.
Kelley Lynch (35:56):
And so you find yourself in the midst of all of
this and people just say to you,"Hey Mike, we," I mean, do they
call you Mike?
Mike Gray (36:07):
I've had a lot of Seri names over the years, and
they've changed over the yearsas people have changed their
opinion of me, but, um,
Kelley Lynch (36:15):
I hate to imagine what they might have been
Mike Gray (36:18):
It takes a long time to get people to accept you and
trust you that you are not likethe last guy who came by.
And the Seris, like the Lakota,have been so exploited by so
many outsiders who've come inand all of them were there to
help.
None of them last.
And so I had to overcome that.
(36:40):
I honestly, I worked in PuntaChuceca, I did projects there
for maybe four years, one or twoa year regularly before anybody
invited me into their home andoffered me a cup of coffee.
We were always were outside.
There are very outside peoplefor me.
I felt out a huge deal.
(37:01):
So I weathered that, but youknow, it takes a while to get
people to work up to that, but Ithink I've gained it.
You know, it may not all berespect, but at least they
respect my ability to get thingsdone and fulfill my promises.
When I make one.
Kelley Lynch (37:20):
It would be great to understand how you got from,
you know, you said you were withthe Catholic priest and you were
former alcoholic.
And can you talk about thatjourney, the journey until
today?
Glossing over whichever partsyou feel appropriate to gloss
over.
Mike Gray (37:38):
It's just that it was a long time ago, but I was an
alcoholic and drug addict.
And my wife left me, my job leftme and you know, that typical
story.
And I ended up in AA and Ithought it would get my wife
back, but it didn't, but thatwas okay in the end.
But there's a step in there thatsays where we seek through
(38:02):
prayer and meditation to find aconscious contact with God.
And so I was church hopping.
I was raised in a Pentecostalchurch, which drove me out at
about age 11 when every thoughtI had was sinful.
And I didn't want much to dowith that.
And so I was church hopping andeverybody was telling me how to
(38:22):
pray, that's what I can do that.
And I got pretty good at that.
But nobody understood thismeditation thing.
And I started reading a lot ofZen, Alan Watson, Suzuki, and
some folks.
And that was all really makingsense to me.
I mean, I could really feeltheir words.
(38:44):
And then I remembered that I hadworked with a woman in a ranch
dude ranch setting who was aQuaker.
And she took me to a Quakermeeting in Santa Fe and it was
summer and it was outside intheir garden.
And it was very quiet and still,and beautiful and, you know,
(39:05):
flowers, hummingbirds and stuff.
And, and it was a very nicefeeling, but this was like in
the seventies, early seventies,I was nowhere near ready to stop
doing what I was doing, but Iwanted to try and reclaim that.
And so I looked for a Quakermeeting to start going to, and
(39:26):
just found one in the next townover.
And so went to my first Quakermeeting and recovered that first
feeling of just total acceptanceof, yeah, you're an alcoholic
and, you know, we'll be glad tohelp you.
It's like, you're okay.
You know, we're glad you'rehere.
You're, you're just who you areand why you are.
(39:49):
And you're okay, just the wayyou are and you're here.
And so I took up with Quakers,but still, you know, I hung out
with a lot of people who weredoing peace and justice work
because that's where I wasdrawn.
You know, alcoholics, they missexcitement in their lives.
(40:10):
And so I sort of got involvedwith the American Friends
Service Committee who wasorganizing against the Central
American Wars in the eightiesand sanctuary people.
And that's where radicalhospitality really started to
take hold.
I was helping central Americansget out of town and, and
(40:32):
sometimes get to Canadasometimes to get underground in
the US.
So this is where I startedhanging around with Catholics
and, you know, a lot ofdifferent people.
And Quakers, aren't big aboutpassing the plate and raising
money or tithing.
And so what I decided to do wasI would give one fifth of my
(40:56):
week.
I figured out of five days aweek, one day a week I
volunteered my time to somebody.
So I started working withneighborhood organizations and
always lots of social workers tohang out with and learn from.
Kelley Lynch (41:10):
What kinds of neighborhood organizations?
Mike Gray (41:15):
In Midland, Texas I mostly worked with Mexican
Americans or immigrant people.
I spent some time with, AIDS wasjust popping up.
They had a house where AIDSpatients were literally, it was
hospice work.
And so I spent some time withthat.
(41:38):
I experienced a lot of differentcommunities of need during that
time and a lot of different waysthat those needs could manifest.
You know, not everybody needsthe same thing.
So I was already getting anunderstanding of that.
And so I continued that practiceof giving one fifth, a fifth of
(42:00):
my time to away to somebodyusing it.
You know, it's sort of until Iretired and I could do what I'm
doing all the time.
And even during that time, whenthe Quakers were paying me
full-time to do work, I couldstill give away a portion of my
time for free to be some justiceorganizations or organizations
that worked against the Bantexnuclear weapons plant in
(42:25):
Amarillo, Texas, against the B2bombers when they started
showing up in Abilene, Texas;did activist work.
I got to the Nevada test siteoccasionally.
So this kind of organizing gotsome of that volunteer time.
I learned a lot through all ofthat time and all of those
(42:46):
experiences.
I think volunteering is greatfor anybody.
No matter it's kind of likecamping.
I mean, you can show upsomewhere that you've never
thought you'd ever be in yourlife and learn something about
other people's lives by doingthat.
It was pretty valuableexperience for me.
I had not done much college.
(43:09):
And so I gave it back to collegepart-time.
So I studied things as theyinterested me.
I took journalism classes to tryand learn, to write a better
letter to the editor and endedup writing a weekly column in
the community college newspaperand doing journalism.
I did some freelance journalismfor a while.
(43:29):
You learn a lot.
I mean, that's why I really likewhat you do.
I mean, I kind of like to do it.
I mean, the ability to just goupdate somebody that you don't
know or haven't heard about andstart asking them, you know what
, so what do you have forbreakfast?
What's your life?
Like?
That's a pretty interesting wayto go through life.
Kelley Lynch (43:47):
It's a nice way you get to be nosy for a living
and people actually, you know,answer your questions and yeah,
it annoys other parts of othermembers of my family.
It annoys them no end, but, um,I feel like God, we cannot get
her out of anywhere, but, um,she wants to talk to everybody.
Mike Gray (44:08):
I had to take an anthropology class Intro to
anthro.
And I learned I was probably ananthropologist, but I didn't
want to be an anthropologistbecause I didn't like the way
they did things.
And so that's, I'm a culturalanthropologist amateur.
Kelley Lynch (44:25):
I'm with you there a hundred percent
Mike Gray (44:28):
That work by volunteering, I volunteered a
lot with Quaker organizationsworking with their youth.
And it was a way for me to keepin touch with my son, who I lost
in the divorce.
I could take him to the largerQuaker gatherings and integrate
him into the crowd so itwouldn't always just be a
(44:48):
one-on-one thing.
And so working as a volunteer,working with youth a lot led me
to this job with the AmericanFriends Service Committee, inner
mountain, yearly meeting jointservice project, coordinating,
service projects, primarily foryouth, but intergenerational.
So there were some adultssprinkled in for grounding.
(45:12):
They ended my project, defundedit.
William Penn house picked it upfor a few years briefly, but we
could not fill projects.
They needed to make overheadmoney out of it and I would
always try to charge as littleas I could.
And so they found it not worthdoing as far as paying staff
(45:35):
time and organizing time and theexpense of flying staff out to
Pine Ridge.
And it was also around at thattime that the cartels in Mexico
had made some of the places wego so dangerous that private
school students that we hadworked with prior their parents
(45:57):
were reluctant to let their kidsgo to Mexico.
And so most of my Mexicanprograms fell through.
We were doing a lot of projectsup in the Sierra Madres at the
time.
And so it was just a time ofchange.
Kelley Lynch (46:11):
So you retired, how long have you been retired
from that?
Mike Gray (46:17):
Didn't actually retire at that time.
So the deal was that I wasactually at a Sundance on Pine
Ridge.
So, we were like early Augustand the word came that my
program was being laid down inSeptember.
I would be unemployed in lessthan two months.
(46:37):
Everything I'd done for the last15 years was over.
So I'm not a Sundancer, but I'vebeen supporting a family
Sundance for a long time upthere.
And what supporters do is youcan still make your own prayers.
I mean, this was, it's all aboutone big prayer being focused on
(47:02):
the tree in the center.
And so I'm under the Arbor anddoing my own dance and praying
for a vision for four days.
The fourth night I slept and hada dream that was so powerful
that it could only have been thevision.
And I got my mentor on PineRidge and he connected me with a
(47:27):
dream interpreter and we wentthrough it and the vision was
clear to all of us, thateverything I had done,
everything I had learned for thelast 15 years was useless to me.
I mean, I may get a job as ateacher and try and tell
somebody, but I had noeducational qualifications.
(47:48):
You know, I could try and lookaround and try and find somebody
else to partner with to pay meto do work camps.
But that model was dying.
All I could do was continue todo what I was doing with the
people and give back to them allof the knowledge that they given
to me.
(48:08):
Use that to help them.
I no longer had to go to themand make a deal.
I'll help you do this if youhelp me do this.
And you know, I used to have togo into a place and say, listen,
I'm going to bring 20 kids inhere.
What can we do that'll beuseful.
Can you house us?
You have to feed us.
You have to take care of ashift.
We have to use your outhouse,you know, make all these deals.
(48:32):
Now.
It's just, I go to the peopleand say, what do you want me to
do?
There are no more limits, nomore budgets, no more
constraints.
You're just telling me what youwant and I'll see how to do it.
And again, it was back to that,that God's saying, don't worry
about it.
You don't need a paycheck.
We'll take care of the people.
(48:54):
We'll take care of you.
You're given to them.
They're going to give to you.
It's all gonna work out.
And so I just continue to dowhat I'd always done.
Radical trust.
That's, that's the radical partof it.
You know, it's just acceptingwhat God tells you to do is
(49:15):
accepting that risk.
And so I just sort of let go andwent.
I've worked with communitiesfrom the bayous of Louisiana, to
the coast of California, toSouth Dakota and deep into
(49:39):
Mexico.
I really couldn't keep doingthat, but I had to sort of
narrow down my focus.
And so it worked out well for meto work with this village in
Mexico in the winter and withthe Lakota on Pine Ridge in the
summer, and have a house inbetween in Arizona, to rest and
store stuff, and have a mailingaddress.
And so it's been like that eversince.
(50:01):
When I say retired, i t wasstill quite a w hile before I
got that first social securitycheck, which really freed me.
I m ean, I was still having to,I d id a lot of carpenter work
and building work to make money,to fund myself to do these for a
while because the projects werenot necessarily self-funding,
(50:23):
but we had to learn how to makethem self-funding, working with
artists, cooperative artists and in a certain village.
For instance, I kept the big vanthat I no longer needed, but
started hauling groups ofComcaac artists up to the US to
sell their wares at art markets,native American art shows.
(50:48):
Before a lot of University ofArizona students put themselves
through school, going down thereand buying Ironwood and baskets
and bringing them up here andselling them and traders, a
number of traders made a livingdoing this wholesale, which
means you buy stuff as cheap asyou can.
And then you sell it for as muchas you can.
And they were pretty mad at meinitially, because the first
(51:11):
thing that happened was theprice of Surrey baskets doubled
then tripled.
And then people were seeing whattheir baskets were selling for
on the other side and seeing howthey had been taken advantage of
for all those decades and ourbusiness model allowed them to
set their own price, sell theirown wares and, and get all of
(51:34):
the money.
The co-op part was that theyeach agreed to split the
expenses of the journey.
So to pay for gas and food andlodging, if we needed it, and I
didn't have to pay everything.
I put everything up front andthen kept the receipts of the
bills.
And then we just kind of addedit all up and looked at a
(51:56):
percentage that was fair.
And then the person who sold theleast always got a piece of that
action to make up for their lesssales.
The person who sold the mostpaid more, it seemed to make
sense.
And that until COVID hit us,we've been averaging about
$35,000 a year in gross sales ina village of 300 people, just
(52:23):
arts and crafts, carvings.
I took a carver to Turkey withthe international wood culture
society.
We got an invitation there afterthey heard about them and came
down and did a video.
So, I mean, we put Seri art on aworld scale now.
I took a native American artclass in college, 101.
(52:47):
And that's all I knew about artmarketing, except galleries
charged a lot of money.
And I watched traders to workdown there.
They would c ome i n a nd b uystuff and take it.
But I made friends with thenative community in the US a t
markets and learned from themand made connections and just
(53:07):
learned how to do it.
The International Wood Culturesociety saw Ironwood carvings on
a blog by a friend, anethnobotanist friend I have in
Southern California.
And she sent them to me and theywanted to make a video about
(53:28):
Seri art wood carving.
And I said, if you want to makea movie about these people, I'll
take you there.
And they said, okay.
And so I got t hem down therefor the traditional new y ear
celebration in the village ofDesemboque..
And they spent a week, the guyswere out of Taiwan.
They spent a week filming andcame out with an hour long video
(53:54):
about the people and theirculture through Enloe basketry,
but they decided to promotethem.
And so we were invited to Turkeyfor the premiere of that video.
You can google Seri, Ironwoodcarving video, and you can find
it.
And it was a well doneprofessional video and told a
lot about the people.
(54:14):
I didn't know I was going to bechapter two, but that's, you can
see some of my work there withthat in some of the specifics.
But it's just making connectionswith people that, you know, and
again, having a good product andfinding a way to sell it.
If there's anything I've learnedabout art is that everybody's an
artist.
Artists are people who can selltheir work and make a living at
(54:37):
it.
That's the true art form.
The Seris have very unique artforms that no one else does or
can do because of they don'thave access to the materials,
but you have to tell people.
So that's made a huge, I mean,we put a lot of kids through
(54:58):
college and through school andfed a lot of people doing this.
And it's not limited to, theseare people who have agreed to go
to the US and actually do thesales, which is, is hard.
You know, you leave yourculture, leave your language
leader or your people behindswimming in a strange country
with strange customs and strangequestions and relying on an
(55:21):
interpretation for everythingand trusting how money works.
And, and almost all of the womenI work with at first were
functionally illiterate,mathematically illiterate.
I mean, they could add andsubtract, but divisions or
percentages or multiplication,and that was all beyond them.
So we spent a lot of time withthat in the beginning then
(55:43):
literally because they could allsign their names that some of
them that's all we can do issign their names.
And so now showing them how touse the shower in a motel.
And it was all a big adventurein the beginning, but now we
have some seasoned pros.
And so a lot of my winter isjust taking them to shows
(56:04):
particularly before Christmas.
Then it kind of slows down.
There's a little bit in thespring, but now we've extended
that our last show now is inJune.
So I would kind of try and setthem up kind of every other
week.
So I could go down, spend aweek, take people back to a
show, take them back, spend aweek, take a different members.
(56:26):
So different members of theco-op go to different shows at
different times take turns.
So it's worked out pretty welland we made it pay for itself
except for a salary for me.
I get food and gas and place tosleep and everything I need out
of the deal.
And it's made a huge, moreimpact than anything else I've
(56:47):
done in the village.
Just the day-to-day dollar fordollar.
Kelley Lynch (56:56):
Your house, I mean, I looked at it on the map
and you're kind of like way outof Tucson.
Like, I mean, it just showspictures of Solaro cactuses that
are some desert.
So you live in a cactus.
Mike Gray (57:08):
The house is built out of all recycled materials by
the guy I bought it from.
And I've been trying to makestuff better ever since, but you
know, it's just a place I storestuff now.
I really don't spend much timein it.
I bought it in 2000.
I've been here 20 years now.
But you know, it's inexpensive.
It's easy to pay off.
My electric bill is minimal.
(57:31):
Overhead is just, there's justreally no overhead here to speak
up.
And so it's worked out well andI love the desert.
And this year of, COVID notbeing able to go into Mexico,
not being able to go to PineRidge, it sort of reminded me of
all of the reasons I chose to behere in the first place that I
(57:52):
don't get to experience everyyear.
Summer, I've always been away onPine Ridge and in the winter, I
usually just come in for a fewdays at a time.
The people are really the reasonI came here more than the place
to lots of great places.
The people here are really theword these days of woke.
(58:15):
Is that, is that a good word?
The community organizers whohave organized this community in
a lot of ways that nobody wouldreally understand from outside,
but we have a community garden.
We also have a community cattleherd, community owned land, a
community center and all with anethic of preservation for this
(58:42):
place.
It's a very special place alongthe San Pedro river.
It's a major migratory path forprobably 75% of migratory birds
coming in and out of Mexico.
And so bird watchers trulytreasure it and developers
really lust after it.
And so we've fought for, well,they were doing this fight
(59:06):
before I got here, but we'veprevented the road from being
paved which will be the firststep for the realtors start
getting ahold of some of the oldranches here and to kind of keep
it the way it is.
The last undammed river inArizona.
Kelley Lynch (59:28):
I was thinking the other day, I actually thought,
wow, wouldn't it be great tojust be somebody who could, I
mean, this is, this is a newthought for me, but somebody who
just drops everything and justgoes and helps people.
And that's part of the reason Ireally wanted to talk to you
(59:48):
because that's kind of whatyou've done and you've managed
to make it work.
Or God has managed to make itwork.
Or however you want to phrasethat.
I feel like over this past year,skilling around COVID and
everything else, I've beenthinking a lot, let's say about
what matters.
(01:00:09):
What are my priorities?
You can't take it with you.
You know, but t here's so manythings that are kind of, u m,
cultural constructs culturalideas about what we should be
doing and how we should beliving our lives.
And so it's been k ind o f niceto hang around in my own energy
and try and parse through a lotof that.
(01:00:29):
But you're somebody who's donethat I would imagine your idea
of what is success is a verydifferent idea than what most
people have.
How do you think about thosethings?
Mike Gray (01:00:42):
My thoughts on success is to be able to look
back and see if what I did wasuseful.
Did I make a difference?
This is why it took people solong to accept me as they
couldn't figure me out.
It's just, what do you want fromus?
And I would say"nothing." Whatdo you want from me?
(01:01:06):
And they looked at this withsuspicion.
And so it will be moreinteresting to see what the
Seris say about me after I'mgone, because they talk about
all of these people who used tocome and don't come anymore.
You know, some of them have diedand gone on or moved onto
something else or wrote theirbook about the Seris and moved
(01:01:30):
on to the Yakis or, you know,whatever, I'm more interested in
how my epitaph gets written,then we'll know whether I was
successful or not.
And say, I'm quick to admit someof the things I've done have
been just total flops.
Some of them have causedproblems that we have
(01:01:52):
experienced that-unintentionally caused bad
relations in a village byviolating a taboo that I didn't
know about.
These things happen.
And so whenever anybody talksabout wanting to help people, I
say, do you know the movie PatchAdams or did you ever watch
(01:02:15):
Patch Adams?
Do you remember Robin Williams?
Kelley Lynch (01:02:17):
I remember the, I can see the cover, but I don't
know if I've watched it.
Mike Gray (01:02:20):
The doctor with the red nose?
I developed a workshop based onthat movie on healthy ways to
help.
All of the lessons are in thatmovie if you can kind of
understand them and pick themout and see what they're saying.
(01:02:41):
But the basic thing is if youwant to help, you have to have a
skill that allows you to help.
You know, if you're a doctor ora nurse, or just like Doctors
without Borders.
I mean, if you're a carpenter,there's all sorts of building
programs.
If you're a photographer or awriter, tell people's stories.
There's just so many differentways of making a difference, but
(01:03:06):
you have to understand how tohelp without hurting.
And you have to do the homeworknecessary before you get there
to prevent doing more harm whenit's over, then, then you have
left good in your wake.
Ram Daas has an amazing bookabout how to help.
(01:03:27):
That's a really good, goodmanual.
I've seen so many people whohave come to help and just left
destruction and bad feelings intheir wake and made it harder
for the next person.
Kelley Lynch (01:03:41):
Right
Mike Gray (01:03:41):
And I wish more than anything that everybody took
this approach.
And if you did it in youreveryday life, all around you,
you wouldn't have to be goingvery far from home to help.
And every community there isneed, even in the wealthy
communities.
You just have to kind of lookdeep to find it sometimes.
(01:04:06):
But it seems like everybodyneeds something.
Sometimes it's just validationor love or friendship or respect
or understanding.
But you know, sometimes it'sjust fundamental.
I need to eat or I need a coat.
I'm cold.
I always designed my work campsaround Quaker testimonies.
(01:04:38):
We don't have a lot of creedsand stuff.
We have what we call t hetestimonies, which are the
things that are important andequality is one of them.
And so it's something I'vealways worked toward knowing
that it's a goal t hat is simplynot achievable in my lifetime.
But to do this to get anywherenear this equality, people in
(01:05:05):
this country are going to haveto lower their standards of
living.
We cannot raise everybody in theworld up to our standard of
living without this huge crashbefore w e ever get anywhere
close.
We will just wipe out theworld's resources in no time if
they all came anywhere close toliving the way we do.
(01:05:26):
And so we have to learn andwe're, we're slowly, some people
are getting it and doing it andliving it, turning their front
yards into gardens, but we haveto do it on a big scale and not
just recycle yesterday'snewspapers.
Kelley Lynch (01:05:46):
So what's next for you?
Mike Gray (01:05:48):
All of the native American markets, we generally
do are still closed.
Everybody's going online.
Everybody says I need a webpage.
And so I've been working ondesigning that and doing so
putting together bios of myartists.
And I'm trying to do that iskind of my homework project
(01:06:09):
lately, because then that way wecan, several museums here are
doing, I do gallery talks with aslideshow, and then we give the
link to sell baskets.
And we've been fairly successfulwith one native seed search in
Tucson.
(01:06:29):
They sold several, they soldfour out of the six baskets I
put into their show.
So it's working, but now, so nowI have to start bringing some
baskets up from Desemboque orgetting them online, sort of
establishing a way to get themup here because you really can't
(01:06:50):
ship.
COVID shut down shipping crossborder too.
Kelley Lynch (01:06:54):
So that's what you'll be doing.
When you go down there ispicking up baskets and things
like that?
Mike Gray (01:07:00):
Yeah, I sold a few online, has put up the pictures
and gave, say, bring me thatone.
And I have to figure out how toget them up.
I mean, Seris make big baskets.
So how big, well size of aVolkswagen, but they're not all
that big.
It's called a SAP team and ithas a whole ceremony around it.
(01:07:24):
We don't sell very many ofthose.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:29):
Wow.
I really appreciate you takingthe time today and driving
yourself down to the communitycenter and having that wire hung
on your hat the whole time sothat it didn't rub in your
beard.
Mike Gray (01:07:41):
No, don't use that for the advertising podcast.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:45):
I'll take your advice on that.
I'm so grateful for the factthat you helped us at very short
notice.
You did your radical hospitalityhere helping me move house.
Mike Gray (01:08:00):
You're still in the same house, I trust?
Kelley Lynch (01:08:00):
I'm still in the same house.
That was 2012.
So I'm still grateful for that.
Mike Gray (01:08:09):
So next time I'll interview you and you can tell
me stories.
Kelley Lynch (01:08:12):
That would, that would be great.
That would be great.
I would love to do that
Mike Gray (01:08:16):
I was always so jealous of your photography, you
would look at your iPhone wouldtake these, you know, Adam's
pictures and mine, mine lookslike a Kodak brownie.
Speaker 5 (01:08:24):
I brought the special iPhone that does that for you
actually.
You didn't know that you justpushed the button, Mike.
Thank you, so much.
Kelley Lynch (01:08:33):
Good.
Nice to talk to you.
Just catch up.
Take care.
Bye Thank you so much forinvesting a little over an hour
and listening to this show.
I hope it gave you a lot tothink about, and if it did that,
(01:08:53):
you'll share it around.
You can always share it from ourwebsite, Anenormalpodcast.com.
And while you're there, be sureto check out the show notes
where I'll put more photos ofMike, as well as the video about
the Seri that Mike mentioned inthe podcast.
Our website is also the place torate and review the podcast.
And we really do hope you'lltake a couple of minutes to do
(01:09:15):
that.
Not because we get anything fromit, but just because it helps
other people to discover theshow.
And that is one way you canactually make a difference for
us.
And again, if you know of anyonewho has an awesome story and you
think we should talk with themfor the podcast, please get in
touch using the contact page.
That's also on our website.
(01:09:37):
We'll be back next week withanother story until then take
care.
When someone asks you for something you can't say, no.
You can't say, well, no, that'smine.
I like it.
You can't say no, I can't affordit.
Or you can't say no, you don'tdeserve it.
Or no, you didn't earn it.
Or, you know, you just, you justgive.
Kelley Lynch (00:28):
Hi, I'm Kelly Lynch.
Welcome to A New Normal, apodcast about re-imagining a
future that starts with each oneof us.
Radical giving it's the theme ofthe season and describes in two
words, the life of our gueststhis week, Mike Gray.
It's not at all a stretch to saythat Mike has a lot in common
(00:51):
with that other giver we thinkof at this time of the year,
Santa Claus.
Now, given that this is anauditory and not a visual
medium, I need to paint apicture of Mike for you.
Imagine Santa, his big whitebeard, longish locks, laughing
eyes, a little soft around themiddle.
(01:13):
Skip the red suit.
Mike has on shirt and jeans, astraw cap, and a bandana, some
beads around his neck.
Mike lives, not at the Northpole, but in a recycled house in
the Arizona desert.
That is when he's not with theLakota on Pine Ridge or the Siri
people in Mexico.
(01:35):
And instead of a sl eigh f illedwith gifts, Mike drives a van
full of tools and sometimespeople, and art.
And he is the gift.
There's real wisdom here anddeep humanity.
This is one of thoseconversations that will walk
alongside me for the rest of mylife.
(01:58):
Mike Gray, it is a fantasticpleasure to have you on the
podcast.
We met, gosh, it was like eightyears ago, now in McDowell
County, West Virginia.
We were kind of chaperones, Isuppose.
Mike Gray (02:13):
I was an assistant director of work, I guess.
That was my job title and youwere the official official
photographer.
Kelley Lynch (02:25):
And low-level chaperone.
Even at that time, I don't thinkI ever really known exactly what
it is that you do.
I mean, I have this kind ofvague idea.
So when people ask you, what doyou do?
Do you have an answer?
Mike Gray (02:42):
My answer is always contextual.
It kind of depends on where Iam.
You know, this is America.
Everybody asks you what you dobecause that defines them
quickly.
And so, you know, some days I'man art dealer.
Some days I'm a junk dealer.
It's just kind of depends.
But what I basically do is aconcept of radical hospitality,
(03:06):
where I have sort of given up mytime, my life to help other
people wherever they are.
And that has led me down theroad to many places.
But usually when I go lookingfor the poorest people, the
(03:27):
people with most need, they'reusually indigenous people at the
end of the road who areunderserved.
And so I've spent most of mytime now working with two tribes
in North America, one in Mexicoand one in South Dakota in the
United States.
So Pine Ridge, one of thepoorest per capita counties in
(03:51):
the country, since I startedtaking censuses of these things
and a small isolated tribe onthe coast of Mexico, on the Gulf
of California, known as theComcaac, who have their own
homeland, but like the Lakota,it has been severely restricted
and they were nomadic peoplesoriginally.
(04:14):
And so they have had to learn anew way of adapting to
circumstances that forced themto change the way they live.
And so I focused on them justbecause you can't help everybody
that has continues to lead medown.
Many different avenues ofhelping because I get asked for
(04:39):
many different things ondifferent days because the
community decides what theywant.
And part of the problem with alot of help given to
communities, the giversdetermine what they need and
just set about doing thatwithout ever asking the
community, what they need orwhat they want.
(05:01):
And whether those two things arerealistic for the community.
And so say some days I'mdrilling water wells.
Some days I'm planting gardens.
Some days I'm selling art atsome of the biggest Native
American Indian art shows in theUS in the West.
Kelley Lynch (05:21):
Those are really different skills and really
different abilities.
And I mean, when I saw you, youwere propping up the foundation
of someone's house and kind ofmaking sure that was stable and
rebuilding.
These are not skills thateverybody has.
I mean, how do you do all ofthese things?
Mike Gray (05:45):
You know, as I'm sitting here thinking now what
I'm thinking is when people askme what I do, I want to reply
with the nuts and bolts answer.
Yeah, you know, we replacedfoundations and floors in houses
where they've rotted away, or,you know, I build houses for
people who don't have them.
(06:05):
Sometimes they're log cabins.
Sometimes they're straw houses,you know.
But these are the nuts and boltsissues.
And the real answer to that ispeople have been building houses
without rulers and hammers andelectrical tools forever, since
they came out of the caves.
And even the caves, they addedonto and built rock walls on
(06:30):
ledges in front of them andbuilt doors and had ladders and,
you know, to get up to them.
And so, you know, all of thisstuff is within reach.
If one just takes the time toask some questions.
And now I do internet researchwhen I have to do something, you
know.
So the nuts and bolts is reallyjust, you learn how to learn and
(06:51):
just whatever people ask you todo, you go talk to an expert,
you read a book, you look forhelp and try and do that one
thing.
Many of the things I do in thesedays is things I never thought
about doing before, didn't studyin school, thought I had no
aptitude for, but my philosophyhas always been to do it to
(07:14):
local community standards.
Don't expect perfection, unlessthere's a building inspector
coming and, you know, just helpmake it better than it was.
And in doing that, we learn howto make it better.
The next time we make it or whatwe may need to add to it.
And so I'm really not afraid totry anything that I'm asked to
(07:39):
do, but I won't say they've allbeen successes.
Sometimes you fail and that'slife, but it doesn't hold you
back.
You just say, well, what do wedo next time?
How can we do it better?
Or was this a bad idea to beginwith?
And sometimes that is a thingtoo.
(08:00):
Let me tell a story and it mayexplain things.
On one of my earliest projectswith the Comcaac people in
Mexico, I partnered with ascience class at a charter
school in Vail Arizona, wherethe woman teacher was real
(08:25):
excited about compostingtoilets.
She had just read a book and Ihad had some experience with
composting toilets when I didsome projects in Nicaragua.
The Seris don't have runningwater.
Seris is the common name of theComcaac.
And there are two villages andwe were working in the Southern
(08:49):
village of Punta Chuceca w hereI talked to people there.
We kind of set it up.
I got a family to let me build acomposting toilet at their house
and be an example that otherpeople could look at and see how
it worked out.
And so all of the students hadto read this book and we all
(09:10):
studied and all learned allabout it, all the science we
could on it.
And went there and built just adeluxe little outhouse with a
composting toilet, a buckettoilet option.
We built a nice plywood box tosit over the bucket.
(09:33):
So the bucket was hidden and hada seat on it and did a concrete
floor so people could also useit as a bath house.
You can go in there, carry somehot water, get naked, take a
bath.
And you know, it had a slidingwindow on it, door, air vents,
(09:54):
you know.
Just made as nice a thing as wecould.
And everybody came in thevillage and they looked at it
and said Oh, that's nice.
That's nice.
And then I kept going back tothat village because one of the
things I do when I introduce aproject into a village, I make a
commitment to a long-termconnection.
We're not just going to likeparachute in and do a project
(10:15):
and you'll never hear from usagain.
I'd try to partner with acommunity.
So I was sitting one day on alittle hill outside the village
and watching the sun come upwith a local guy.
And what I saw was people wouldcome out of their houses one or
a woman leading kids, or, youknow, a couple of people at a
time.
And then they come out of thehouse, go down the road, go out
(10:37):
in the desert, in the bush.
And so all of the area aroundthe village was covered with
used toilet paper and messes.
And this is where we kind offirst hit upon this idea of
trying composting toilets.
So people wouldn't be trashingthe desert like this, and it
would be more convenient.
Anyway, we had made thiscommitment and we decided to do
(11:00):
it and continuing to go back andfollowing up, everybody was
coming to me and asking for usto come and build an outhouse at
their house.
And I was like, that's cool.
You know, we could, we couldbuild a lot of them, but it was
a village of about 600 peoplethat we're talking a lot
outhouses.
We're talking a lot of weeks.
(11:21):
We're talking a lot of time.
And, and so I sort of simplifiedthis into just building the box
that sits over the bucket,giving them a bucket out of box
with a toilet lid on it.
And then I can put this in thecorner of their house and, you
know, put it out in the yard,behind a tree, you know, put it
(11:41):
anywhere they wanted to.
And people were really happywith that.
And we got more requests formore of these.
And at the time I was alreadynoticing we had two problems in
the desert things don't compost.
Well, you have to add water.
You have to tend to carefully.
You have to add green stuff andbrown stuff and a series we're
really working at thiscomposting thing very well.
(12:04):
It wasn't really wasn't doingwell.
We couldn't find local materialto cover it with.
So we tried chopped up seaweedand all kinds of things.
And there's just not that muchgreen material around there.
And so I started following upthis project and other houses
just kind of seeing how it wasgoing for other people.
(12:25):
And I was finding they'd startedusing the box for a side table
and they were using the bucketsto haul water.
Except for some very old peoplewho really love the bucket
because their knees were bad andthey were having trouble
squatting in the bushes.
And so they just dug a holeunder the box and used it that
(12:50):
way.
And then I had a chance to go upto the Northern village of
Desemboque, which is more rural,more traditional, t he harder to
get to.
And I found there, that thestate had come in and given
everyone a composting toiletkit.
These were custom builtfiberglass outhouse that sat on
(13:16):
two big tubs that you'd dig ahole and you'd set the tubs in.
You screwed down the house ontop of one, use it until it was
full and then you picked up thehouse and put it on top of the
other one, composted the firstone while you use the second
one.
And I'm thinking, well, youknow, if the government's going
(13:36):
to give everybody one of these,why am I building them?
And so I went around askingpeople, you know, how do you
like this?
Is this is a good thing?
They said yes one of the bestthings the government ever gave
me and I said, well, how's itworking out?
Are you guys composting?
What do you use for greenmaterials?
And they showed me that theytook the part that's supposed to
(13:57):
go underground that you'resupposed to poop in and they set
them in front of their house.
And so when the water truck cameby, they filled them with water
and they were using them forwater containers.
And that was why it was animportant thing to find out.
They really just wanted thebuckets all along.
They just wanted the plasticbuckets.
I could have went around handingout$5 buckets to everybody and
(14:20):
they would have been thrilled.
We didn't have to go to all thatwork.
It was a language thing weweren't communicating well when
we were talking about what theyneeded and what they got.
And so I learned a whole lot onthat.
It completely changed the way weworked after that.
What came to me is I really hadto spend more time with the
(14:41):
people to understand thembetter.
Both of us were speaking in asecond language as we were
communicating, and that's hardenough to begin with.
And I had to make it moreexperiential for myself so I
could experience their life.
What it's like to go haul water,to go out in the bushes to use
(15:01):
the bathroom to live.
How do they cook?
What do they eat?
Where does their food come from?
How do they come about it?
What are the economics of thevillage?
And just do a lot of hangingout, getting to know them
experientially and just sort offorget everything I knew in a
book or everything people toldme that they thought that they
(15:23):
needed.
Or it'd be great if you did aproject like this, or, you know.
We were looking at things thatreally weren't that important to
them in their everyday life-really weren't that useful.
Not that big a deal.
No matter what it meant for theenvironment or the big picture,
it had to be more personal.
Kelley Lynch (15:55):
You've had 25 years hanging out.
How does it work?
Because you live in Arizona, butyou travel down there.
How often?
Mike Gray (16:09):
This has been a crazy year for everybody, but I left
there tending to go right backand COVID happened.
And they closed the border andthe tribe closed off their
territory and did not allowpeople to come in.
Same thing happened on PineRidge and they're still closed
down.
One of the things I do, I mean,this is the first thing.
(16:31):
Any outsider who wants to helpdoes is to start bringing
secondhand goods in for peoplewho need clothes and dishes and
pots and pans and all of thisstuff.
And so one of the things we haddone, working with Prescott
college, primarily, they werethe head of this and Laura Monti
(16:54):
, who was a doctor, specializingcommunity health had organized a
clinic and each village and wasset aside, remodeled them.
So whether there was places toisolate people from the village
and treat them and got oxygengenerators, so people could be
(17:16):
treated and not have to go tothe hospitals in the big city
where most of the people nevercame back.
I had sheets and bedding andpillows and things that the
clinic needed to set up forpeople.
So they just helped themselvesto my store.
And that was my contribution tothat helping load the trucks
(17:39):
here in Patagonia to go down.
But that's still one of thethings I do is bring things from
the US that are unavailable atMexico.
And things for the fishermen.
There are really two ways tomake a living in Desemboque.
I kind of settled on the moretraditional, harder to get to
(18:03):
village because I thought theyneeded more help because they're
smaller and more isolated.
But, in hanging out with thefishermen, I found that fish
finders can make them moreproductive.
GPS's can make them moreproductive.
VHF radios and antennas can makethem safer when they're out on
(18:24):
the water.
And some boat doesn't come backor they're looking for somebody
or to make connections.
And so fishing tackle and thingsfor hunters.
Some of these things are just onavailable or unaffordable in
Mexico.
Right now, big horn, sheep huntsare the biggest income line for
(18:48):
the Seri tribe.
They sell big horn sheep permitsto big game hunters who come
from out of the country and paylots of money for this.
And when this first started, theguides were happy with like old
army camouflage clothes, but nowto look more professional and to
(19:10):
be more respected by the outsidehunters, they want higher-end
clothing and good binoculars,and rangefinders and portable
radios and just a lot of stuff.
So this is another sideline thatwe've developed i s just
infrastructure stuff.
Y ou k now, t here's pots andpans for those who need them
(19:31):
frying pans, but if you need it,w e've got higher end stuff t
oo.
Kelley Lynch (19:42):
Let's go back to that idea.
You mentioned earlier aboutradical hospitality.
Tell me what that means in yourmind.
What is radical hospitality?
Mike Gray (19:54):
I guess I would just be able to define it as when
someone asks you for somethingyou can't say, no, You can't
say, well, no, that's mine.
I like it.
You can't say no, I can't affordit.
Or you can't say, no, you don'tdeserve it.
Or no, you didn't earn it.
Or, you know, you just, justgive.
(20:21):
It doesn't matter what peoplehave done, what people have done
to you, whether you think peopleare trying to take advantage of
you or are asking for thingsthat they shouldn't be asking
for.
You just try and give them anopportunity to better themselves
and move beyond where they are.
(20:44):
And so, you'd have drug addictscome in and ask for money and
you give it to them.
You didn't know if they're going t o buy food or drugs but
they asked you had it.
You gave it to them.
This is culturally appropriatehistorically i n tribes.
(21:05):
And this w as another area whereI've learned a lot from them,
for the Lakota or the Northwesttribes.
Y ou practice giveaways.
The Lakota practice giveaways.
You w ere respected by how muchyou gave away, not by how much
you had.
And people who had more thanthey could use or more than they
needed were not liked.
(21:31):
And so it was sort of okay tosteal a television from somebody
who had two of them, cause hecouldn't watch them both anyway.
And so this frustrated me a lotin the beginning until I kind of
learned to let go of this someand understand this better.
(21:52):
You have to be willing to giveaway everything.
My backstory is I was analcoholic and drug user.
And when I quit, I was hangingaround with a Catholic priest
(22:13):
and a lot of Quakers.
And this Catholic priest toldme, he says, are you really
ready to be a Christian?
Because that means you lose allcontrol of your life.
If God comes and asks you to dothis, you can't say, No.
You're not a Christian if yousay, No.
You gotta be willing to do it.
(22:34):
And that may take you places youdon't want to go.
So that was a big decision thatI made a long time ago.
Okaym, if God wants me to dothis, and it seems right, and I
test this.
With Quakers, they have whatthey call a Clearness Committee,
(22:57):
where you sit down in worshipfulsilence and consider this
question of, is this a realleading or is it just something
you want to do?
You know, where did this comefrom?
Is it really God asking you todo this?
Or just your ego?
But you kind of tests theseleadings with your community.
(23:23):
And if they seem realistic andsome people could say, they
sound crazy, but you know, ifit's a real leading, you have to
trust that God is taking youthere for a reason and it's
going to be okay.
But for us in America, ourculture makes it so difficult
(23:48):
sometimes to let go of thosethings and not buy into that
money measurement of success.
I don't want to get mean aboutit, but you know, just
selfishness, the greed, themeritocracy.
You know, why should I give yousome of my money when you don't
(24:11):
work as hard as I do, or youdon't work or won't work, or
whatever reason we come up with.
Why does one person merit morethan another person?
Kelley Lynch (24:25):
So how do you think about those things?
I mean, because you think aboutit obviously in a very different
way, right?
Mike Gray (24:31):
Well, I still do it in a guarded way because if they
want my van, if I give them myvan, then I'm out of business,
you know?
I can't do the other helpingthings.
And so I've just sort of couchedit in a way of, you know, I'm
using this right now and it'simportant to me and no, you
(24:55):
can't have it.
Or, I have other plans for thisthing rather than giving it to
you I think it would be moreuseful to someone else or more
people will benefit if I give itto this person rather than
giving it to you.
And so some of this stuff isself rationalized, but it's that
(25:17):
survival instinct.
If I give it all away, then I'mnot worth anything to anybody
else.
Or I feel like I have purposefor having these things, or I
wouldn't have them.
And I just kind of set it up sowhen I die, it's all, you know,
you guys could have it all then,but right now I'm using it.
(25:40):
It's a struggle.
I mean, it is a struggle.
Kelley Lynch (25:45):
One of the things that we've been, I have this,
this group of people that aspart of my own kind of idea of
being the change that you wouldlike to see.
I mean, one of the changes Iwant to see is to see people
talking to each other who don'tnecessarily agree with each
other, because I think there's alot of value in that.
(26:06):
And we can learn a lot fromother people, this idea of
radical hospitality, even justsharing in the form of taxes
often comes up and your point ofview is just so it's so
radically different.
Mike Gray (26:27):
Well, this is another thing that hanging out with the
people has helped me tounderstand better.
There are lots of reasons why Iended up settling on the Lakota
and the Comcaac as people tohang out with.
But one of the reasons isthey're both nomadic peoples
historically nomadic peoples whoranged long distances annually,
(26:52):
who are now forced to live on avery small parcel of land in a
way that just totally destroyedtheir old traditions,
lifestyles, food ways, justeverything that they ever knew,
except their thinking.
They continue to think in theold ways.
(27:14):
This set me to try andunderstand this better, because
these are things that work fornomadic peoples, but don't work
for settled peoples and economicsystems is one of the big ones
that doesn't work for nomadicpeoples.
(27:35):
When a people are used to goingalong and for the Comcaac they
were known as the sea turtlehunters.
They would follow the seasonalmigration of the sea turtles up
and down the coast.
And they were so plentiful atthat time, you could just kind
of spot one, jump in the water,wrestle it to the sea and build
(27:57):
a fire and you'd have meat foreverybody for days, you could
dry some for later.
And like the Lakota, you know,they would have a buffalo hunt.
Buffalo feed a lot of people anddry a lot of meat for later.
And so your value was determinedsomewhat by how skilled you were
(28:20):
as a hunter or food preparer,maybe as a hide preparer.
But you know, there was reallyno economy.
People didn't give, buy, tradethings much, except for the few
things values that they madebows and arrows knives.
You know, this stuff just didn'thappen for either of these
(28:43):
people until colonialism.
The guy named McGee andanthropologists went out toward
the Smithsonian to study theSeris in around in the early
1890s.
And he came back in his report.
He said he saw no evidence ofsteel, iron, metal use among the
(29:06):
Seris in the 1890s while we'rechasing Geronimo around the
border with repeating rifles andmachine guns.
We've had the Civil War and theSeris they're in the Stone Age
still, at this time.
And so I have run across oldartifacts in the desert, like
(29:27):
there's a bone awl.
The knee bone, leg bone of adeer or a big horn sheep is what
they use for an awl to makebaskets with.
And I've found these, which wereinscribed with a mark.
Before Seris started to writethey could still make a mark.
And so they had figured out howto mark the tools that were
(29:48):
theirs to eliminate thesedisputes.
And so it could be on theirknife or their Bow or their awl
or whatever.
They did have things that theyowned the individual owned, and
it was theirs and they hadrights to keep it, but these
were essential items that theyneeded to work with, but they
(30:12):
made things that were beneficialto other people because a woman
made a basket and you could haulseeds around or cactus fruit and
so it was useful for everybody.
And so nobody messed with herawl.
So, the way we live now is justcompletely opposite of that.
Everything that comes down theroad is owned by someone, either
(30:35):
the maker, the wholesaler, theretailer, or the ultimate buyer
or consumer, you know?
It's got somebody's mark on it,which changes, but somebody has
got a Mark all the way down theline from beginning to end until
it hits the trash and thennobody wants it.
But it's a different way ofliving that one has set aside,
(30:58):
what is community property?
What should be communityproperty?
And what do I have a right toown apart from the community
that's mine.
And why do I have the right toown that rather than make it
available to the community orsomeone who might use it better
(31:18):
or to more good use.
Kelley Lynch (31:21):
And so this is not necessarily changed, even though
they are definitely moresettled.
I mean, settled now?
Mike Gray (31:31):
They are more settled.
And so they can't do this in thesame way or don't because they
get no reinforcement from it.
But still their thinking is inthe old ways.
(31:57):
I see this more with the Lakotathan the Comcaac maybe because I
haven't had the same kind ofgeek conversations because of
the language barrier.
But where I see it most is wheresocieties have always depended
on people like me- go betweens,people who go back and forth.
But one of the things we've seenin particularly amongst the
(32:20):
Comcaac people were Mexicansfrom outside, who came in and
married into the tribe and howthat changed the economy.
I think more than anything i sbecause they come in and
Mexicans are very good aboutfamily and connections.
And so these fishermen came inwith money to invest in boats
(32:45):
and houses, and they marriedIndian women.
So they could have rights tolive in the village and fish.
And suddenly they k ind o fjumped up to the top of the, you
know, the elite moneymakers.
But without that old idea ofsharing fish with everybody who
(33:09):
needed a fish, these fish were there.
These fish were going to amarket because they had to sell
the fish because they had tohave cash because they had to
buy gas and radios and GPS's andfish finders, so they can get
more fish.
And so that they could get atruck.
And so that they could start amiddleman business.
(33:30):
And so they could buy fish fromeverybody and take one trip to
town and sell it all.
And on one tank of gas.
And so they brought thisdifferent way of thinking about
the economy into their village,to compete with people who are
still thinking in the old ways.
And even now when the boats comein, the Mexican boats come in
(33:52):
and they pay somebody to comedown to the water and clean and
gut the fish and prepare them togo to market.
And they pay the women a littlebit and a lot of women, that's
how they make their dailyspending and money.
And in the Seri boats, thefamilies come down and they just
help.
Everybody's kin and everybodytakes a couple of fish home for
the family to eat.
(34:13):
It's kind of the same thing inone way, but it's more a
generosity and a recognition ofwho needs it.
And that they're important andnot just a wage earner, but
they're their family.
Both tribes have a very distinctClan system based on an extended
(34:36):
family.
And that's good in some waysit's bad in some other ways.
A person's first loyalty is totheir clan or extended family.
And this creates problems forgetting everybody on board for
the same idea.
And I think this is part of theproblem in America is we're
seeing people who are more,their affiliation is more with
(34:58):
Republicans or Democrats than itis with America.
And so as we sort of break upinto these clan and warring
factions and sort of lose sightof the big picture that may help
us out in the short run, but inthe long run, it just leads to
trouble.
And so I have to kind of dancearound this a little bit in the
(35:19):
village, as we do every dayhere, you know, Mexico is kind
of the near extreme libertariancountry.
It has democracy.
It has a functioning democracy.
People can vote.
People have power.
But if you have enough money,none of that matters.
Presidents are assassinated.
Cartels takeover.
(35:40):
If you've got enough money andguns, you can pretty much run
your world that you can controlin the way you want to do it.
And that trickles down throughsociety.
Kelley Lynch (35:56):
And so you find yourself in the midst of all of
this and people just say to you,"Hey Mike, we," I mean, do they
call you Mike?
Mike Gray (36:07):
I've had a lot of Seri names over the years, and
they've changed over the yearsas people have changed their
opinion of me, but, um,
Kelley Lynch (36:15):
I hate to imagine what they might have been
Mike Gray (36:18):
It takes a long time to get people to accept you and
trust you that you are not likethe last guy who came by.
And the Seris, like the Lakota,have been so exploited by so
many outsiders who've come inand all of them were there to
help.
None of them last.
And so I had to overcome that.
(36:40):
I honestly, I worked in PuntaChuceca, I did projects there
for maybe four years, one or twoa year regularly before anybody
invited me into their home andoffered me a cup of coffee.
We were always were outside.
There are very outside peoplefor me.
I felt out a huge deal.
(37:01):
So I weathered that, but youknow, it takes a while to get
people to work up to that, but Ithink I've gained it.
You know, it may not all berespect, but at least they
respect my ability to get thingsdone and fulfill my promises.
When I make one.
Kelley Lynch (37:20):
It would be great to understand how you got from,
you know, you said you were withthe Catholic priest and you were
former alcoholic.
And can you talk about thatjourney, the journey until
today?
Glossing over whichever partsyou feel appropriate to gloss
over.
Mike Gray (37:38):
It's just that it was a long time ago, but I was an
alcoholic and drug addict.
And my wife left me, my job leftme and you know, that typical
story.
And I ended up in AA and Ithought it would get my wife
back, but it didn't, but thatwas okay in the end.
But there's a step in there thatsays where we seek through
(38:02):
prayer and meditation to find aconscious contact with God.
And so I was church hopping.
I was raised in a Pentecostalchurch, which drove me out at
about age 11 when every thoughtI had was sinful.
And I didn't want much to dowith that.
And so I was church hopping andeverybody was telling me how to
(38:22):
pray, that's what I can do that.
And I got pretty good at that.
But nobody understood thismeditation thing.
And I started reading a lot ofZen, Alan Watson, Suzuki, and
some folks.
And that was all really makingsense to me.
I mean, I could really feeltheir words.
(38:44):
And then I remembered that I hadworked with a woman in a ranch
dude ranch setting who was aQuaker.
And she took me to a Quakermeeting in Santa Fe and it was
summer and it was outside intheir garden.
And it was very quiet and still,and beautiful and, you know,
(39:05):
flowers, hummingbirds and stuff.
And, and it was a very nicefeeling, but this was like in
the seventies, early seventies,I was nowhere near ready to stop
doing what I was doing, but Iwanted to try and reclaim that.
And so I looked for a Quakermeeting to start going to, and
(39:26):
just found one in the next townover.
And so went to my first Quakermeeting and recovered that first
feeling of just total acceptanceof, yeah, you're an alcoholic
and, you know, we'll be glad tohelp you.
It's like, you're okay.
You know, we're glad you'rehere.
You're, you're just who you areand why you are.
(39:49):
And you're okay, just the wayyou are and you're here.
And so I took up with Quakers,but still, you know, I hung out
with a lot of people who weredoing peace and justice work
because that's where I wasdrawn.
You know, alcoholics, they missexcitement in their lives.
(40:10):
And so I sort of got involvedwith the American Friends
Service Committee who wasorganizing against the Central
American Wars in the eightiesand sanctuary people.
And that's where radicalhospitality really started to
take hold.
I was helping central Americansget out of town and, and
(40:32):
sometimes get to Canadasometimes to get underground in
the US.
So this is where I startedhanging around with Catholics
and, you know, a lot ofdifferent people.
And Quakers, aren't big aboutpassing the plate and raising
money or tithing.
And so what I decided to do wasI would give one fifth of my
(40:56):
week.
I figured out of five days aweek, one day a week I
volunteered my time to somebody.
So I started working withneighborhood organizations and
always lots of social workers tohang out with and learn from.
Kelley Lynch (41:10):
What kinds of neighborhood organizations?
Mike Gray (41:15):
In Midland, Texas I mostly worked with Mexican
Americans or immigrant people.
I spent some time with, AIDS wasjust popping up.
They had a house where AIDSpatients were literally, it was
hospice work.
And so I spent some time withthat.
(41:38):
I experienced a lot of differentcommunities of need during that
time and a lot of different waysthat those needs could manifest.
You know, not everybody needsthe same thing.
So I was already getting anunderstanding of that.
And so I continued that practiceof giving one fifth, a fifth of
(42:00):
my time to away to somebodyusing it.
You know, it's sort of until Iretired and I could do what I'm
doing all the time.
And even during that time, whenthe Quakers were paying me
full-time to do work, I couldstill give away a portion of my
time for free to be some justiceorganizations or organizations
that worked against the Bantexnuclear weapons plant in
(42:25):
Amarillo, Texas, against the B2bombers when they started
showing up in Abilene, Texas;did activist work.
I got to the Nevada test siteoccasionally.
So this kind of organizing gotsome of that volunteer time.
I learned a lot through all ofthat time and all of those
(42:46):
experiences.
I think volunteering is greatfor anybody.
No matter it's kind of likecamping.
I mean, you can show upsomewhere that you've never
thought you'd ever be in yourlife and learn something about
other people's lives by doingthat.
It was pretty valuableexperience for me.
I had not done much college.
(43:09):
And so I gave it back to collegepart-time.
So I studied things as theyinterested me.
I took journalism classes to tryand learn, to write a better
letter to the editor and endedup writing a weekly column in
the community college newspaperand doing journalism.
I did some freelance journalismfor a while.
(43:29):
You learn a lot.
I mean, that's why I really likewhat you do.
I mean, I kind of like to do it.
I mean, the ability to just goupdate somebody that you don't
know or haven't heard about andstart asking them, you know what
, so what do you have forbreakfast?
What's your life?
Like?
That's a pretty interesting wayto go through life.
Kelley Lynch (43:47):
It's a nice way you get to be nosy for a living
and people actually, you know,answer your questions and yeah,
it annoys other parts of othermembers of my family.
It annoys them no end, but, um,I feel like God, we cannot get
her out of anywhere, but, um,she wants to talk to everybody.
Mike Gray (44:08):
I had to take an anthropology class Intro to
anthro.
And I learned I was probably ananthropologist, but I didn't
want to be an anthropologistbecause I didn't like the way
they did things.
And so that's, I'm a culturalanthropologist amateur.
Kelley Lynch (44:25):
I'm with you there a hundred percent
Mike Gray (44:28):
That work by volunteering, I volunteered a
lot with Quaker organizationsworking with their youth.
And it was a way for me to keepin touch with my son, who I lost
in the divorce.
I could take him to the largerQuaker gatherings and integrate
him into the crowd so itwouldn't always just be a
(44:48):
one-on-one thing.
And so working as a volunteer,working with youth a lot led me
to this job with the AmericanFriends Service Committee, inner
mountain, yearly meeting jointservice project, coordinating,
service projects, primarily foryouth, but intergenerational.
So there were some adultssprinkled in for grounding.
(45:12):
They ended my project, defundedit.
William Penn house picked it upfor a few years briefly, but we
could not fill projects.
They needed to make overheadmoney out of it and I would
always try to charge as littleas I could.
And so they found it not worthdoing as far as paying staff
(45:35):
time and organizing time and theexpense of flying staff out to
Pine Ridge.
And it was also around at thattime that the cartels in Mexico
had made some of the places wego so dangerous that private
school students that we hadworked with prior their parents
(45:57):
were reluctant to let their kidsgo to Mexico.
And so most of my Mexicanprograms fell through.
We were doing a lot of projectsup in the Sierra Madres at the
time.
And so it was just a time ofchange.
Kelley Lynch (46:11):
So you retired, how long have you been retired
from that?
Mike Gray (46:17):
Didn't actually retire at that time.
So the deal was that I wasactually at a Sundance on Pine
Ridge.
So, we were like early Augustand the word came that my
program was being laid down inSeptember.
I would be unemployed in lessthan two months.
(46:37):
Everything I'd done for the last15 years was over.
So I'm not a Sundancer, but I'vebeen supporting a family
Sundance for a long time upthere.
And what supporters do is youcan still make your own prayers.
I mean, this was, it's all aboutone big prayer being focused on
(47:02):
the tree in the center.
And so I'm under the Arbor anddoing my own dance and praying
for a vision for four days.
The fourth night I slept and hada dream that was so powerful
that it could only have been thevision.
And I got my mentor on PineRidge and he connected me with a
(47:27):
dream interpreter and we wentthrough it and the vision was
clear to all of us, thateverything I had done,
everything I had learned for thelast 15 years was useless to me.
I mean, I may get a job as ateacher and try and tell
somebody, but I had noeducational qualifications.
(47:48):
You know, I could try and lookaround and try and find somebody
else to partner with to pay meto do work camps.
But that model was dying.
All I could do was continue todo what I was doing with the
people and give back to them allof the knowledge that they given
to me.
(48:08):
Use that to help them.
I no longer had to go to themand make a deal.
I'll help you do this if youhelp me do this.
And you know, I used to have togo into a place and say, listen,
I'm going to bring 20 kids inhere.
What can we do that'll beuseful.
Can you house us?
You have to feed us.
You have to take care of ashift.
We have to use your outhouse,you know, make all these deals.
(48:32):
Now.
It's just, I go to the peopleand say, what do you want me to
do?
There are no more limits, nomore budgets, no more
constraints.
You're just telling me what youwant and I'll see how to do it.
And again, it was back to that,that God's saying, don't worry
about it.
You don't need a paycheck.
We'll take care of the people.
(48:54):
We'll take care of you.
You're given to them.
They're going to give to you.
It's all gonna work out.
And so I just continue to dowhat I'd always done.
Radical trust.
That's, that's the radical partof it.
You know, it's just acceptingwhat God tells you to do is
(49:15):
accepting that risk.
And so I just sort of let go andwent.
I've worked with communitiesfrom the bayous of Louisiana, to
the coast of California, toSouth Dakota and deep into
(49:39):
Mexico.
I really couldn't keep doingthat, but I had to sort of
narrow down my focus.
And so it worked out well for meto work with this village in
Mexico in the winter and withthe Lakota on Pine Ridge in the
summer, and have a house inbetween in Arizona, to rest and
store stuff, and have a mailingaddress.
And so it's been like that eversince.
(50:01):
When I say retired, i t wasstill quite a w hile before I
got that first social securitycheck, which really freed me.
I m ean, I was still having to,I d id a lot of carpenter work
and building work to make money,to fund myself to do these for a
while because the projects werenot necessarily self-funding,
(50:23):
but we had to learn how to makethem self-funding, working with
artists, cooperative artists and in a certain village.
For instance, I kept the big vanthat I no longer needed, but
started hauling groups ofComcaac artists up to the US to
sell their wares at art markets,native American art shows.
(50:48):
Before a lot of University ofArizona students put themselves
through school, going down thereand buying Ironwood and baskets
and bringing them up here andselling them and traders, a
number of traders made a livingdoing this wholesale, which
means you buy stuff as cheap asyou can.
And then you sell it for as muchas you can.
And they were pretty mad at meinitially, because the first
(51:11):
thing that happened was theprice of Surrey baskets doubled
then tripled.
And then people were seeing whattheir baskets were selling for
on the other side and seeing howthey had been taken advantage of
for all those decades and ourbusiness model allowed them to
set their own price, sell theirown wares and, and get all of
(51:34):
the money.
The co-op part was that theyeach agreed to split the
expenses of the journey.
So to pay for gas and food andlodging, if we needed it, and I
didn't have to pay everything.
I put everything up front andthen kept the receipts of the
bills.
And then we just kind of addedit all up and looked at a
(51:56):
percentage that was fair.
And then the person who sold theleast always got a piece of that
action to make up for their lesssales.
The person who sold the mostpaid more, it seemed to make
sense.
And that until COVID hit us,we've been averaging about
$35,000 a year in gross sales ina village of 300 people, just
(52:23):
arts and crafts, carvings.
I took a carver to Turkey withthe international wood culture
society.
We got an invitation there afterthey heard about them and came
down and did a video.
So, I mean, we put Seri art on aworld scale now.
I took a native American artclass in college, 101.
(52:47):
And that's all I knew about artmarketing, except galleries
charged a lot of money.
And I watched traders to workdown there.
They would c ome i n a nd b uystuff and take it.
But I made friends with thenative community in the US a t
markets and learned from themand made connections and just
(53:07):
learned how to do it.
The International Wood Culturesociety saw Ironwood carvings on
a blog by a friend, anethnobotanist friend I have in
Southern California.
And she sent them to me and theywanted to make a video about
(53:28):
Seri art wood carving.
And I said, if you want to makea movie about these people, I'll
take you there.
And they said, okay.
And so I got t hem down therefor the traditional new y ear
celebration in the village ofDesemboque..
And they spent a week, the guyswere out of Taiwan.
They spent a week filming andcame out with an hour long video
(53:54):
about the people and theirculture through Enloe basketry,
but they decided to promotethem.
And so we were invited to Turkeyfor the premiere of that video.
You can google Seri, Ironwoodcarving video, and you can find
it.
And it was a well doneprofessional video and told a
lot about the people.
(54:14):
I didn't know I was going to bechapter two, but that's, you can
see some of my work there withthat in some of the specifics.
But it's just making connectionswith people that, you know, and
again, having a good product andfinding a way to sell it.
If there's anything I've learnedabout art is that everybody's an
artist.
Artists are people who can selltheir work and make a living at
(54:37):
it.
That's the true art form.
The Seris have very unique artforms that no one else does or
can do because of they don'thave access to the materials,
but you have to tell people.
So that's made a huge, I mean,we put a lot of kids through
(54:58):
college and through school andfed a lot of people doing this.
And it's not limited to, theseare people who have agreed to go
to the US and actually do thesales, which is, is hard.
You know, you leave yourculture, leave your language
leader or your people behindswimming in a strange country
with strange customs and strangequestions and relying on an
(55:21):
interpretation for everythingand trusting how money works.
And, and almost all of the womenI work with at first were
functionally illiterate,mathematically illiterate.
I mean, they could add andsubtract, but divisions or
percentages or multiplication,and that was all beyond them.
So we spent a lot of time withthat in the beginning then
(55:43):
literally because they could allsign their names that some of
them that's all we can do issign their names.
And so now showing them how touse the shower in a motel.
And it was all a big adventurein the beginning, but now we
have some seasoned pros.
And so a lot of my winter isjust taking them to shows
(56:04):
particularly before Christmas.
Then it kind of slows down.
There's a little bit in thespring, but now we've extended
that our last show now is inJune.
So I would kind of try and setthem up kind of every other
week.
So I could go down, spend aweek, take people back to a
show, take them back, spend aweek, take a different members.
(56:26):
So different members of theco-op go to different shows at
different times take turns.
So it's worked out pretty welland we made it pay for itself
except for a salary for me.
I get food and gas and place tosleep and everything I need out
of the deal.
And it's made a huge, moreimpact than anything else I've
(56:47):
done in the village.
Just the day-to-day dollar fordollar.
Kelley Lynch (56:56):
Your house, I mean, I looked at it on the map
and you're kind of like way outof Tucson.
Like, I mean, it just showspictures of Solaro cactuses that
are some desert.
So you live in a cactus.
Mike Gray (57:08):
The house is built out of all recycled materials by
the guy I bought it from.
And I've been trying to makestuff better ever since, but you
know, it's just a place I storestuff now.
I really don't spend much timein it.
I bought it in 2000.
I've been here 20 years now.
But you know, it's inexpensive.
It's easy to pay off.
My electric bill is minimal.
(57:31):
Overhead is just, there's justreally no overhead here to speak
up.
And so it's worked out well andI love the desert.
And this year of, COVID notbeing able to go into Mexico,
not being able to go to PineRidge, it sort of reminded me of
all of the reasons I chose to behere in the first place that I
(57:52):
don't get to experience everyyear.
Summer, I've always been away onPine Ridge and in the winter, I
usually just come in for a fewdays at a time.
The people are really the reasonI came here more than the place
to lots of great places.
The people here are really theword these days of woke.
(58:15):
Is that, is that a good word?
The community organizers whohave organized this community in
a lot of ways that nobody wouldreally understand from outside,
but we have a community garden.
We also have a community cattleherd, community owned land, a
community center and all with anethic of preservation for this
(58:42):
place.
It's a very special place alongthe San Pedro river.
It's a major migratory path forprobably 75% of migratory birds
coming in and out of Mexico.
And so bird watchers trulytreasure it and developers
really lust after it.
And so we've fought for, well,they were doing this fight
(59:06):
before I got here, but we'veprevented the road from being
paved which will be the firststep for the realtors start
getting ahold of some of the oldranches here and to kind of keep
it the way it is.
The last undammed river inArizona.
Kelley Lynch (59:28):
I was thinking the other day, I actually thought,
wow, wouldn't it be great tojust be somebody who could, I
mean, this is, this is a newthought for me, but somebody who
just drops everything and justgoes and helps people.
And that's part of the reason Ireally wanted to talk to you
(59:48):
because that's kind of whatyou've done and you've managed
to make it work.
Or God has managed to make itwork.
Or however you want to phrasethat.
I feel like over this past year,skilling around COVID and
everything else, I've beenthinking a lot, let's say about
what matters.
(01:00:09):
What are my priorities?
You can't take it with you.
You know, but t here's so manythings that are kind of, u m,
cultural constructs culturalideas about what we should be
doing and how we should beliving our lives.
And so it's been k ind o f niceto hang around in my own energy
and try and parse through a lotof that.
(01:00:29):
But you're somebody who's donethat I would imagine your idea
of what is success is a verydifferent idea than what most
people have.
How do you think about thosethings?
Mike Gray (01:00:42):
My thoughts on success is to be able to look
back and see if what I did wasuseful.
Did I make a difference?
This is why it took people solong to accept me as they
couldn't figure me out.
It's just, what do you want fromus?
And I would say"nothing." Whatdo you want from me?
(01:01:06):
And they looked at this withsuspicion.
And so it will be moreinteresting to see what the
Seris say about me after I'mgone, because they talk about
all of these people who used tocome and don't come anymore.
You know, some of them have diedand gone on or moved onto
something else or wrote theirbook about the Seris and moved
(01:01:30):
on to the Yakis or, you know,whatever, I'm more interested in
how my epitaph gets written,then we'll know whether I was
successful or not.
And say, I'm quick to admit someof the things I've done have
been just total flops.
Some of them have causedproblems that we have
(01:01:52):
experienced that-unintentionally caused bad
relations in a village byviolating a taboo that I didn't
know about.
These things happen.
And so whenever anybody talksabout wanting to help people, I
say, do you know the movie PatchAdams or did you ever watch
(01:02:15):
Patch Adams?
Do you remember Robin Williams?
Kelley Lynch (01:02:17):
I remember the, I can see the cover, but I don't
know if I've watched it.
Mike Gray (01:02:20):
The doctor with the red nose?
I developed a workshop based onthat movie on healthy ways to
help.
All of the lessons are in thatmovie if you can kind of
understand them and pick themout and see what they're saying.
(01:02:41):
But the basic thing is if youwant to help, you have to have a
skill that allows you to help.
You know, if you're a doctor ora nurse, or just like Doctors
without Borders.
I mean, if you're a carpenter,there's all sorts of building
programs.
If you're a photographer or awriter, tell people's stories.
There's just so many differentways of making a difference, but
(01:03:06):
you have to understand how tohelp without hurting.
And you have to do the homeworknecessary before you get there
to prevent doing more harm whenit's over, then, then you have
left good in your wake.
Ram Daas has an amazing bookabout how to help.
(01:03:27):
That's a really good, goodmanual.
I've seen so many people whohave come to help and just left
destruction and bad feelings intheir wake and made it harder
for the next person.
Kelley Lynch (01:03:41):
Right
Mike Gray (01:03:41):
And I wish more than anything that everybody took
this approach.
And if you did it in youreveryday life, all around you,
you wouldn't have to be goingvery far from home to help.
And every community there isneed, even in the wealthy
communities.
You just have to kind of lookdeep to find it sometimes.
(01:04:06):
But it seems like everybodyneeds something.
Sometimes it's just validationor love or friendship or respect
or understanding.
But you know, sometimes it'sjust fundamental.
I need to eat or I need a coat.
I'm cold.
I always designed my work campsaround Quaker testimonies.
(01:04:38):
We don't have a lot of creedsand stuff.
We have what we call t hetestimonies, which are the
things that are important andequality is one of them.
And so it's something I'vealways worked toward knowing
that it's a goal t hat is simplynot achievable in my lifetime.
But to do this to get anywherenear this equality, people in
(01:05:05):
this country are going to haveto lower their standards of
living.
We cannot raise everybody in theworld up to our standard of
living without this huge crashbefore w e ever get anywhere
close.
We will just wipe out theworld's resources in no time if
they all came anywhere close toliving the way we do.
(01:05:26):
And so we have to learn andwe're, we're slowly, some people
are getting it and doing it andliving it, turning their front
yards into gardens, but we haveto do it on a big scale and not
just recycle yesterday'snewspapers.
Kelley Lynch (01:05:46):
So what's next for you?
Mike Gray (01:05:48):
All of the native American markets, we generally
do are still closed.
Everybody's going online.
Everybody says I need a webpage.
And so I've been working ondesigning that and doing so
putting together bios of myartists.
And I'm trying to do that iskind of my homework project
(01:06:09):
lately, because then that way wecan, several museums here are
doing, I do gallery talks with aslideshow, and then we give the
link to sell baskets.
And we've been fairly successfulwith one native seed search in
Tucson.
(01:06:29):
They sold several, they soldfour out of the six baskets I
put into their show.
So it's working, but now, so nowI have to start bringing some
baskets up from Desemboque orgetting them online, sort of
establishing a way to get themup here because you really can't
(01:06:50):
ship.
COVID shut down shipping crossborder too.
Kelley Lynch (01:06:54):
So that's what you'll be doing.
When you go down there ispicking up baskets and things
like that?
Mike Gray (01:07:00):
Yeah, I sold a few online, has put up the pictures
and gave, say, bring me thatone.
And I have to figure out how toget them up.
I mean, Seris make big baskets.
So how big, well size of aVolkswagen, but they're not all
that big.
It's called a SAP team and ithas a whole ceremony around it.
(01:07:24):
We don't sell very many ofthose.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:29):
Wow.
I really appreciate you takingthe time today and driving
yourself down to the communitycenter and having that wire hung
on your hat the whole time sothat it didn't rub in your
beard.
Mike Gray (01:07:41):
No, don't use that for the advertising podcast.
Kelley Lynch (01:07:45):
I'll take your advice on that.
I'm so grateful for the factthat you helped us at very short
notice.
You did your radical hospitalityhere helping me move house.
Mike Gray (01:08:00):
You're still in the same house, I trust?
Kelley Lynch (01:08:00):
I'm still in the same house.
That was 2012.
So I'm still grateful for that.
Mike Gray (01:08:09):
So next time I'll interview you and you can tell
me stories.
Kelley Lynch (01:08:12):
That would, that would be great.
That would be great.
I would love to do that
Mike Gray (01:08:16):
I was always so jealous of your photography, you
would look at your iPhone wouldtake these, you know, Adam's
pictures and mine, mine lookslike a Kodak brownie.
Speaker 5 (01:08:24):
I brought the special iPhone that does that for you
actually.
You didn't know that you justpushed the button, Mike.
Thank you, so much.
Kelley Lynch (01:08:33):
Good.
Nice to talk to you.
Just catch up.
Take care.
Bye Thank you so much forinvesting a little over an hour
and listening to this show.
I hope it gave you a lot tothink about, and if it did that,
(01:08:53):
you'll share it around.
You can always share it from ourwebsite, Anenormalpodcast.com.
And while you're there, be sureto check out the show notes
where I'll put more photos ofMike, as well as the video about
the Seri that Mike mentioned inthe podcast.
Our website is also the place torate and review the podcast.
And we really do hope you'lltake a couple of minutes to do
(01:09:15):
that.
Not because we get anything fromit, but just because it helps
other people to discover theshow.
And that is one way you canactually make a difference for
us.
And again, if you know of anyonewho has an awesome story and you
think we should talk with themfor the podcast, please get in
touch using the contact page.
That's also on our website.
(01:09:37):
We'll be back next week withanother story until then take
care.
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