November 12, 2020 • 49 mins
This has been a time of trauma — for some of us it started four years ago, for others just last week. It's tempting to think the answers to our pain lie in retreating further into tribalism. But if there’s one thing this election made painfully clear, it’s that we can’t vote the other side away.
Transcending our differences won't be easy. Our guest, Alaine Duncan, Author of the Tao of Trauma explores this time through the lens of our national body as a trauma survivor. How do we heal the divisions and the mistrust? How can we — individually and collectively — act from the connection and regulation of our frontal cortex instead of the primitive, reactive fear of our brain stem? And how can we play a role in helping all parties find that all-important moment to distinguish between “I am uncomfortable” and “I am unsafe"?
Keep listening (from 42:30) as we talk with co-host Obaidul Fattah Tanvir in Bangladesh about some of the surprising (and hilarious) responses people there have had to the US election.
Cover Art: A joke in the form of a typical Bangladeshi style campaign poster supporting Donald Trump that has been widely circulated on Facebook. Loosely translated, it says that the Republican Party has selected him as their candidate, he has the endorsement of the Bush dynasty (ha!), he is a successful businessperson and one-time successful President; he is honest, and he will sacrifice everything for the country. So please vote for Donald Trump and give him another chance to make America great again.
SHOW NOTES
Alaine Duncan graduated from acupuncture school in 1990 and completed Somatic Experiencing training in 2007. She was a founding member of the Integrative Health & Wellness program at the DC Veterans Administration Medical Center where she served as a clinician and researcher from 2007-2017. She also co-founded the National Capital Area chapter of Acupuncturists Without Borders who, until Covid 19, provided free weekly acupuncture treatment to immigrants, refugees and neighbors in need. Her book, The Tao Trauma: A Practitioner's Guide for Integrating Five Element Theory and Trauma Treatment explores East-meets-West approaches to restore survivor’s balance and regulation. It is available in print, audio and kindle wherever you buy books on line.
Alaine mentioned the "invention of race". For more information on the origins of race as a concept, see John Biewen's TED talk, "The Lie that Invented Racism". Another huge favorite with us here at A New Normal is John Biewen's podcast (Through The Center for Documentary Studies at Duke University) , Scene on Radio. We loved Season 2, Seeing White and Season 4, The Land that Never Has Been Yet.
Theme music: Fragilistic by Ketsa
licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelley Lynch (00:04):
Hello?
Hey, Hey, did you hear the news?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (00:12):
What news?
Kelley Lynch (00:12):
Biden?
He won the election Biden wonPennsylvania.
So that means he won theelection.
Cindy Sealls (00:20):
We just found out today.
Like this morning, it's Saturdaymorning and we're all basically
dancing in the streets.
Kelley Lynch (00:29):
Yeah, exactly.
We just came in.
We were out on the streets.
All of our neighbors were out.
Everybody was.
Horns blasting blocks and blocksaway.
And people cheering blocks awayfrom us.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (00:45):
This is a sad day for Bangladeshi people.
I should say for the worldbecause the show is off then.
We are going to miss hisentertainment.
Trump has been the entertainmentfor the world and Biden, he will
(01:06):
be so boring.
What will happen to Trevor Noahand like Stephen Colbert?
Kelley Lynch (01:15):
Don't worry.
I think you've still got alittle bit, I mean, the grand
finale is coming.
Cindy Sealls (01:19):
We could encourage him to run for office and
Bengladesh.
The posters are already there.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:27):
No, no.
We already have too many Trumpsin this country.
We don't need one more.
You can keep him.
We don't mind.
(laughter)
Kelley Lynch (01:45):
Hey, I'm Kelley Lynch.
Welcome to a new normal, apodcast about re-imagining a
future that starts with each oneof us.
Our guest today is ElaineDuncan.
And you might remember Elainefrom the last episode, but as
this traumatic election seasonhas unfolded, we really couldn't
(02:07):
think of anyone better to talkto t han Elaine.
Elaine is the author, as you mayremember, of The Tao of Trauma.
Her East meets West approach totrauma integrates the
neurobiology of traumatic stresswith ancient healing principles
from acupuncture and Asianmedicine healing from this
(02:28):
tumultuous time and findingcommon ground is going to
require some real effort.
It can be tempting to think thatthe answers w e're looking for
lie in retreating further intothe righteous anger and
indignation of tribalism.
But if there's one thing thiselection has made painfully
clear, it's that we cannot votethe other side away.
(02:50):
The path ahead will beuncomfortable and difficult.
Overcoming our differences willrequire us to lean into our
discomfort and develop newskills.
Fortunately, Elaine has morethan a few ideas about how we
can do that.
Lainie Duncan, welcome again tothe podcast.
(03:10):
We did not anticipate callingyou back.
I mean, in fact, in our historyso far, which is only about 15
episodes long, but we have notcalled anybody back the next
week and said, Hey, we reallyneed to talk to you.
But with your focus on trauma,we really felt that you were the
right person for this moment,because there are many of us who
(03:33):
are celebrating, who feel likewe've come off of four years of
trauma.
And there are many of us whofeel like we are about to enter
four years or more of trauma.
So for those who did not listento the last episode, I wondered
if you could tell us a littlebit about yourself and your
(03:55):
focus on trauma.
Alaine Duncan (03:58):
So, I'm Alaine Duncan.
I'm an acupuncturist with a kindof a unique focus on the
integration of Westernneurobiology with Asian
medicine, with an orientationtowards the resolution of
traumatic stress, restoringbalance and regulation for
people.
And I kind of came to thisinterest through my longstanding
(04:21):
desire to have my work as ahealer, not just touch
individuals, but actually createa different culture, a more
whole culture where the needs ofall people can find their way to
fruition, you know, wherethere's space for, for people to
grow and change and develop andinfluence the ballot box,
(04:42):
influence how people relate toeach other in the larger context
of their lives at work and theirneighborhoods and communities
and so forth and create just alittle more regulated world.
So that more impulsive, reactivekind of choices that we all make
when we're feeling overwhelmedor fearful or reactive don't
spill over into domesticviolence or into racial violence
(05:05):
or into child abuse, or, youknow, into those kinds of
things.
In some ways, it grows out of mymembership in the religious
society of friends, where wehave a foundational principle
that we believe that there'sthat of God in all people.
So I want to help people findthat of God that's inside them
and to relate to their neighbors, uh, through that lens as well.
(05:30):
And sort of get out the doubleart sandpaper to take off the
edges that make it difficult forpeople to see another human
being as a human being and, andto transcend the sense of
difference that might be, uh,might be in the way.
So then you are absolutely theperfect person for this moment,
(05:50):
because that is exactly where wefind ourselves.
I mean, I think for all of ushearing the news yesterday that
Joe Biden won Pennsylvania andthus won the election was for
all of us, probably a moment of,ah, it was a collective sigh of
relief.
Kelley Lynch (06:10):
And obviously that is not the same feeling that
many in this country have.
And I think that in the courseof watching the election results
come in, I was really struck byone thing.
And that is that we are more orless, 50, 51 way.
And the other way we cannotexpect to go on in any sort of a
(06:35):
meaningful or productive way, ifwe don't unite in some way, if
we don't find some way acrossthis kind of chasm that we have.
So as somebody who thinks abouttrauma, both individual and
collective, we wondered if youcould talk about this moment and
(06:55):
what it has to tell us aboutperhaps the challenge that we
face and the opportunities thatwe may have going forward.
Alaine Duncan (07:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually have a lot ofthoughts about what your, what
your speaking.
I think that there, there are alot of us who every day woke up
during the Trump administration,wondering what next hate speech
was going to come out, what nextpolicy decision was going to be
made.
That was going to have such aprofound expression on
(07:30):
marginalizing people of color,disrespecting science,
disrespecting our planet,creating a sense of arousal that
made it really hard for peopleto rest into themselves and feel
at ease and just the thought ofnot having to wake up every day,
wondering what chaos is going tobe promoted next, I think is
(07:52):
really created an exhale.
I mean, for myself, I couldn'timagine holding my breath for
another four years.
So I think just lifting thatburden off is going to make it
easier to be okay To have aplaying field.
That's just a little morefruitful, you know, more hopeful
about building relationshipsacross differences that that's,
(08:13):
that's, I think probably thebiggest, gift of the Biden win
is that little bit of sense ofspace it's been opened up.
We don't have to be quite sotense all the time.
You know, as Reverend Barbersays, our, our work still
continues towards justicetowards peace, towards equality
that wasn't going to change nomatter who won the election.
Kelley Lynch (08:45):
Just listening to your explanation of the relief
that many people felt.
I guess I'm trying to get myhead around the idea of trauma
to a country and how yourpractice of helping people move
through trauma might be used tohelp us in the collective.
Alaine Duncan (09:08):
I think that our nation, first of all, is a
trauma survivor.
So we can look at our nationthrough the lens of the
autonomic nervous system and geta lot of information.
For instance, over the summerwith the murder of George Floyd,
we saw tremendous release ofsympathetic arousal that had
been forwarded for decades, ifnot centuries, and by
(09:32):
sympathetic activation.
What I mean is the urge toprotect and defend that's in our
biology when either we are beingthreatened or someone that who
we perceive as being vulnerableis being threatened.
We have a biological urge tomobilize a fight or flight
response in order to protectthem.
(09:54):
There are legions of stories andexperiences, particularly in the
community of color where peopleweren't allowed to move that
biologic urge out of theirtissues.
So when you want to push someoneaway or push them off or defend
(10:15):
yourself, and you're not allowedto complete that in your
musculature, it's remains behindin your muscles.
And if it's in there, it has tomove out.
The healing process is allowingpeople to complete whatever was
left incomplete in the variousphases of their experience of
the threat response.
The self-protective response.
(10:36):
The interesting thing is thatthere have been some wonderful
studies about epigenetics, theinheritance of traumatic stress.
So those experiences of thwartedurges to protect and defend,
actually change the genetic codein the survivor.
And they pass that informationon to their progeny.
(10:59):
In humans.
The research goes threegenerations in mice, they've
discerned seven generations ofdistortions and cortisol,
adrenaline, aberrant behavior,et cetera, of inherited trauma.
So, you know, I think a lot ofwhat we would witnessed over
this summer was 400 years ofthwarted urge to protect and
defend.
(11:19):
But what we've also witnessedwith the release of some of that
sympathetic arousal is a biggerplatform to talk about all these
things through like the state ofMississippi, put a Magnolia on
their flag and took theConfederate flag off.
That's a good thing.
And there are books being soldand study groups and
conversation groups aboutmatters of race that never were
(11:41):
happening before.
So I think there's a dialogue.
There's a sense of possibility.
There's more openness.
We're starting to look morecritically at our history.
And, and that's because therewas this release of sympathetic
arousal that allowed more spacein our national body politics,
more space to have these, theseconversations and potentially
(12:02):
these transforming When there isthat thwarted state, we're using
our brainstem to attempt to havecreative thought, but we can't
think creatively with ourbrainstem.
(12:23):
We can only think as if we're ina corner lashing out against a
threat, we can't be thoughtful.
We can't be reflective.
We can't consider the impact ofseven generations forward seven
generations back.
We need our frontal cortex to dothat.
And we can only use our frontalcortex when we feel safe in our
relationships and in ourselves,the whole issue of four years of
(12:48):
daily, you could call themmicro- aggressions, but not all
of them were micro that createdagain, another experience of
that thwarted arousal.
And this is really challengingduring the time of quantity to
find a sense of saferelationship with other people,
to have a vibrational experiencewith another human being, where
you're in sync with each other.
(13:09):
It's very hard.
There are actually, you know,there's stories of increased
levels of suicide amongstteenagers, and we need the
regulating influence of ourtribe, which leads me to want to
talk about tribe, because Ithink this is maybe key to
understanding the fact thatdisturbs me so greatly about
(13:30):
this election, that more whitepeople voted for Trump in 2020
than voted for him in 2016.
So getting a little bit bigger,a little bigger context.
And there's this guy namedSebastian Junger who wrote this
book called tribe.
And what he looked at was ourancestral need.
(13:54):
Like when we were living on thesavannas, we needed at least one
person in our group who couldhear and discern the saber tooth
tiger in the Bush.
And then we needed enough of asense of resonance with our
fellow tribe members to be ableto sense that activation, that
(14:16):
that person experienced whenthey discerned the saber tooth
tiger.
We needed to be in a regulatedrelationship with them so that
we could as a tribe survive.
So in an evolutionary way, wehave cultivated a way to be in
sync with people who we discernare members of our group in very
(14:40):
subtle ways that are expressedmore through culture than
through cognitive analyticalunderstanding.
It's just a vibration ofculture.
So returning soldiers will oftenlong for a return to the
battlefield because of the senseof intimacy that's created
there, that they don't find whenthey come home.
(15:03):
This, this, I found fascinatingin England during World War II,
there was a strong movement totake the children and move them
to the countryside with them outof London and take them to the
countryside in order for them tobe safe from the bombing of
England.
But in adulthood, the childrenwho are taken away fared much
more poorly than the childrenwho stayed with their families
(15:25):
and parents, even though theyhad to be rushed into bomb
shelters.
And where their life was put atrisk many, many times, but they
had the experience of intimatebonding.
And the kids who were taken tothe countryside, you know,
didn't have their families withthem.
They were safer, but they feltmore alone.
So this need for tribalconnection is really deep and it
(15:50):
is rooted in our biology ofsurvival.
So the problem then is with theinvention of race in the early
16 hundreds, no before thenEuropean colonists were thought
of as English or Scots orGermans or poles or, you know,
whatever they were, they weren'tthought of as white.
It wasn't until the 16 hundredswhen Southern plantation owners
(16:15):
needed to create a divisionbetween white sharecroppers and
enslaved Africans, that theconcept of race was even a
concept.
And they used it, cultivated itin order to separate people
whose interests were actuallyaligned.
And that conceptual framework ofrace and white supremacy has
been cultivated in increasinglynuanced ways for 350 years.
(16:41):
So my concern or my sense ofwhat's next is largely about how
can white people help create aculture shift amongst other
white people.
Things like finding ouralignment across all races
called African-American people,Latinos, Asians, indigenous
(17:04):
people for quality education forour children for reliable and
safe housing for good healthcare.
Like we have so much more incommon than we have differences.
So it's not about lecturingpeople about policy or lecturing
people about how their thinkingis right or wrong.
It has to be about creating asense of safety across
(17:26):
differences and unity.
It says, we all want the samething.
Let's come together and createit for ourselves.
Kelley Lynch (17:47):
Cindy and I have a conversation group where we talk
With people who are from bothsides of the divide and they are
people that we are inrelationship with.
So that is a very helpful thing.
I think it makes all thedifference because we understand
that the other person inherentlyis a good person.
(18:09):
Inherently is a moral person.
You are listening for the sharedvalues.
You're listening to give themthe benefit of the doubt.
And I don't see a lot of that oneither side as a person who
works on trauma.
Are there any techniques that wemight use as a collective to
(18:33):
help us build those bridges?
Alaine Duncan (18:36):
I think we're called to some pretty deep
listening, and I think it'sfabulous that you have this
group of people with diverseopinions and beliefs in that
you're able to sit down witheach other and talk.
And certainly, you know, we'recoming up on the Thanksgiving
holiday and you know, whatholiday is more notorious for
bringing together differentopinions in one family.
(18:57):
So, you know, I think that whensomeone speaks really strongly
about, I'm afraid of theviolence in the inner city and
it's, you know, we know that'sthe dog whistle or, all these
immigrants coming and, andthey're just going to take all
our jobs.
And, you know, I'm really scaredabout that or this election was
stolen and dah, dah, dah, Imight say.
(19:18):
So I hear that you're a personwith strong opinions.
Tell me more.
So then I haven't made them bador wrong for the content of
their opinion.
I've simply noticed that theyare a person with a strong
opinion.
So how is it for me to noticethat you're a person with a
strong opinion?
Well, I finally feel heard forthe, you know, maybe for the
(19:40):
first time, maybe this person isjust longing to be heard, you
know, and they've been shut downall their life.
So can we hear, they're longingto be heard and then maybe go a
little bit further and say, sowhat happens inside you when you
feel heard by me?
Well, I feel like I can exhale alittle bit or I feel a little
(20:01):
softening in my, in my chest.
Great.
So let's let you notice thatlittle bit of softening in your
chest.
Well, yeah.
You know, when I was a kid, mydad would just slap me when I
had my opinion different fromhis.
Yeah.
So stay with that for a littlebit.
And then maybe they, they gointo tears or they go into
(20:23):
exhale or they go into deepreflection or, you know,
something starts to move intheir tissues because really
they're longing to be heard isrooted back in that childhood
experience.
And it's being played out todayin having a strong vituperative
opinion that may or may notactually be owned by them to you
(20:43):
.
City's words owned by theirhigher self or their true self.
It's a trauma overlay of wantingto be heard, which who doesn't
want to be heard, who doesn'twant to have their opinions
listened to.
We all do.
And sometimes it isn't untilthose opinions are listened to
deeply that we can understandwhere they're coming from and
(21:05):
maybe have a little morecapacity to put our feet in
someone else's shoes.
Kelley Lynch (21:21):
If the United States was to basically walk
into your practice, how wouldyou treat the United States?
Alaine Duncan (21:31):
I might ask them before we say anything, or do
anything to just take a fewminutes and hum together.
Let's hum, the star Spangledbanner, you know, let's hum
America, the beautiful.
And when you, when we hum, we'reactually sending a vibration
(21:52):
onto the ventral vagus nervethat supports our accessing of
our frontal cortex, whichsupports us towards more
relational diplomatic kind ofsolutions to conflict.
So we all need our ventral vagusnerve tickled a little bit.
So if we start meetings withhumming or we start meetings
(22:15):
with a song because trauma is avibrational illness.
And so it needs to be met byvibrational medicine.
So if we can play catch witheach other with a ball or we can
play music with each other, orwe can engage in partner dance,
or we can engage in communitytheater where we have to be in
(22:39):
resonant connection with eachother and take cues and we're
actually attuning our heart toother people's heart.
So we need those kinds ofopportunities.
The other thing that I wouldalways advocate, and we can
maybe all do it right here, takea minute and notice your feet on
the floor.
(22:59):
Notice your feet on the groundand notice that we're all
touching American soil and weall have similar needs and
interests in quality education,safety for our children on the
streets.
Just get in touch with how weall want that for ourselves and
(23:23):
our children, no matter whetherwe're Latino or Jewish or
African-American or Asian.
These are things that we allwant.
So just take a minute to putyour feet on the ground and
notice how through the earthyou're connected to every other
American.
In fact, you're connected toevery other person on planet.
(23:46):
In me right now, as I considerthat, it slows me down on the
inside.
I feel a little deeper in mybody.
I feel a little slower and Ifeel a little more sense of
relationship even though I'msitting in a room all by myself
and looking at you guys on thisscreen.
So if I can have my feet on theground and connected to the
(24:08):
earth and my head in connectionwith the heavens, this is what
Asian medicine says that humanbeings are in connection with
the earth.
And with the heavens, like whenwe put our arms outstretched and
our feet outstretched We are thevitality, the life that exists
between heaven and earth.
So when we exist in this spacebetween heaven and earth, is
(24:32):
there a space for people who wemight think of as different to
be in that same world?
Now back to those times on theSavannah, when we were part of
the tribe that needed to noticethe saber tooth tiger, if there
was a tribe that had differentcustoms of language or dress, or
(24:53):
we would look at them as other,and they would be an, an
invading intruding forest thatwe would not trust.
So this capacity to trust peoplewho look different, who, who
have a different culture, itgoes way back and the need to,
instead of focus on thedifferences to find the
similarities is historic andtakes work.
(25:15):
If after we've taken a moment tohum or sing or play catch or
sway with each other, as peoplenotice that they feel a little
more regulated, give everybody amoment to notice.
Gosh, I feel heavier in my body.
Gosh, I feel lighter in my body.
Gosh, I, I feel a little smileon my face.
(25:37):
I feel a sense of connectionwith the people who are here.
All those things give peopletime, maybe even in small
breakout groups to explore theirsensate experience that's now
different.
Because what we're trying to dois help people harvest new
synaptic connections in theirneurobiology that are actually
(25:58):
reflections of greaterregulation that will support the
ventral vagus nerve to negotiatemore diplomatic solutions to
conflict.
Kelley Lynch (26:20):
How would you use that in response to what we face
as a result of this election andthe challenges we may face
moving forward?
Alaine Duncan (26:33):
You know, in my world, in the world of
acupuncture, there are meridiansand acupuncture points.
I get to use needles tostimulate a vibrational message
that's carried through the, andtouches body, mind, and spirit
to help restore regulation inindividuals.
And we can do the same when wewalk down the street or relate
to our neighbors.
(26:53):
If we do our best to project, anexperience of equanimity and,
and allowing the person we'respeaking with to be
uncomfortable, but us to not gointo their discomfort with them.
If we can hold balance andregulation and allow them their
moment of expressing their, youknow, their great feeling, their
(27:17):
great emotion.
And I hear you, I hear you'reterrified.
I hear you're really pissed.
I hear you're profoundly sad.
I hear you're struggling to sortout, what are you going to take
away from this election?
I hear you that this really tookyou by surprise.
And it was hard for you to evennotice that there was this other
vibration that was movingthrough our nation.
(27:39):
Like, can we hear those fivestates and allow them their
place and to be heard and, and,and mirrored back without
mirroring the dysregulation andgoing down the rabbit hole with
them.
Our heart is a, is a bigelectromagnetic field, right?
It's the biggest electromagneticfield in our bodies.
And this is the work of theheart math Institute.
(28:02):
When our heart is regulated, youknow, the heartbeat is a regular
rhythm and it's coherent andit's strong, but not too strong.
It's that resonance actuallymoves six to eight feet out and
influences the cardiac coherenceof people six to eight feet
around us.
So granted we're supposed tostay six feet away from each
(28:24):
other, but maybe when I likelook at you, even into this
screen with a sense ofrelationship and connection in
our eyes, maybe it influences,you.
Maybe I can make that sense ofequanimity and regulation in my
heart actually communicatethrough the screen.
So it's all vibrational, youknow, it's all, what are we
(28:45):
putting out?
And what are we allowing in?
And the good thing is that ourregulation, our regulated state
has a stronger influence thansomeone else's dysregulated
state.
If we're in a crowded room,which we never are these days,
but, um, and someone who'shighly dysregulated comes in and
(29:07):
starts shouting, or, you know,being disruptive, we may get
hooked into their dysregulation,but the more that we have
cultivated ourself to be able totolerate disagreement or be able
to tolerate our own discomfortand stay in regulation, but have
a wider zone of tolerance, wecan influence them more than
(29:29):
they can influence us.
Our regulation will influencethem.
So the task is to cultivate ourown capacity to tolerate our
discomfort.
And here's the key to recognizeand make a distinction between
I'm uncomfortable and I'm unsafebecause if we mistakenly say to
(29:50):
ourselves, I'm unsafe, we willgo into our brainstem where we
are more likely to makeimpulsive actions that will be
violent and potentially harmful.
So we need to be able to knowthe difference between I'm
uncomfortable and I'm unsafe.
And it is immoral for me to blowmy anxiety, my discomfort,
(30:17):
through someone else's body.
I need to own my own discomfortand seek to expand my capacity,
to tolerate my discomfort andenlarge my zone of comfort, my
zone of resiliency.
So I can stay regulated evenwhen I feel uncomfortable.
Kelley Lynch (30:47):
This country was founded on high ideals of
equality and justice andLiberty, some specifically for
wealthy white land owning men.
Everybody else experienced theother side of that equation.
And on the extreme end of thescale, what that meant for the
(31:10):
native Americans was genocideand for the African-Americans
slavery.
So there are a bunch of peoplewho have experienced this huge
trauma.
And while I think we, as whiteAmericans particularly can think
that perhaps that trauma livesonly in the African-American
(31:31):
community or only in the nativeAmerican community, it also
lives within all of us.
I mean, there are images thatshow almost a picnic atmosphere
with children and picnicbaskets, and people dressed up
for the occasion to watch alynching.
And then you watch that officerwith his knee on the neck of
(31:54):
George Floyd, and that has atremendously powerful and
visceral impact.
There is a collective traumathat happens in that moment.
I mean, if it's hard for me towatch a mouse dying on a glue
trap, I can only imagine thetrauma that this generates
(32:15):
individually and collectively inour society.
I wondered if you could talkmore about that from an
epigenetic perspective,
Alaine Duncan (32:26):
Colonists, European Americans came to this
country out of about a thousandyears of history of plague,
tortures drawing and quartering,beheadings with heads placed on
poles in the, in the citysquare, burnings at the stake,
lots of religious persecution,lots of trauma.
(32:47):
And there's one theory and thisis, um, explained really
beautifully by Resmaa Menakem inhis book, My Grandmother's Hands
that says that the capacity of aEuropean American to watch a
lynching, you know, as if it wasa picnic was rooted in their own
(33:07):
trauma response and the shutdownthat they needed to do in their
own hearts, their own ventralVegas in order to cope with the
epigenetic impact of thesehundreds and hundreds of years
of European torture.
Human beings have been doingugly and horrible things to each
other for since time immemorial.
(33:30):
You know, it's not like it'snew, it's not like America is
unique, but certainly thatcapacity to witness a lynching.
Maybe you're, you're taken thereas a child by your parent, you
know, and taught that you shouldbe able to like withstand
looking at this without your ownresponse.
(33:54):
The task actually for whiteAmericans in the longterm is to
cultivate enough softness in ourhearts, that we have the
capacity to step into the shoesof a black and indigenous people
of color, latinos, people whoare different from ourselves to,
(34:14):
to transcend the shutdown in ourheart, that's required us to be
so braced in order to getthrough life, that we are unable
to experience the threat thatthese people who are different
from us go through every day.
So we have our own whiteAmericans have their own trauma
(34:35):
healing to do in order to betteraccess their heart and be able
to transcend this sense ofseparation and distance.
Kelley Lynch (34:48):
Is there an epigenetic component to all of
this?
In the last episode, you talkedabout some very interesting
studies with mice, maybe there'ssome other interesting studies
you could share.
Alaine Duncan (35:02):
There's another study with mice, where they
tormented the mothers.
They put them in enclosedconfined spaces.
They dumped them in cold water.
They don't like cold water.
They separated them from theirpups and the moms developed high
cortisol levels, dysregulatedhormonal balance, aberrant
behavior, all the marks of atrauma response.
(35:24):
And their pups similarly hadmanifestations of trauma
response, both in their bloodlevels and blood chemistries and
in their behavior.
And that continued for sevengenerations.
So with mice, we can look atmultiple generations easier than
we can with human beings becausethey, they rotate through the
(35:45):
generations faster.
So seven generations later, themice are still having aberrant
behavior and aberrant cortisoland adrenaline levels.
The next generation gets put inwhat I like to call Mouse Canyon
Ranch, you know, like big cage,carpeted floor, games and toys
(36:05):
that stimulate braindevelopment, plenty of food, all
of those kinds of things.
In one generation, their pupsdidn't show dysregulation.
One generation in Mouse CanyonRanch transformed the epigenetic
impact of these multiplegenerations of sense of threat.
(36:26):
So while human physiology isquite a bit more sophisticated
than mouse physiology, it does,in my mind, lend some
credibility for the vibrationalquality of restoring regulation
in children and young adults whoare yet to have their own
children.
If we can restore regulation atthe level of epigenetic impact,
(36:50):
we can change the vibration forfuture generations.
Kelley Lynch (37:01):
So how would you do that in this particular case?
I mean, I guess it's kind oflike going back to the idea of
America as a trauma patient.
Alaine Duncan (37:12):
Well, I think you do things like establish
policies that help children andyoung adults experience safety
and relationship.
Dr.
Nadine Burke Harris has a Tedtalk.
She's the surgeon general ofCalifornia.
She's a pediatrician and she hasthe most thoughtful explanation
(37:34):
of the research on what theycall adverse childhood
experiences and the impact onadult morbidity and mortality.
It's all happening at theCenters for Disease Control now,
but children who have multipleexperiences of life threat, and
maybe that loss of a parent,being bullied in school,
(37:55):
difficult birth experience, allkinds of different things,
addiction in the homeimprisonment of a parent.
If they have four or more ofthose kinds of experiences,
their risk of autoimmuneillness, of drug and alcohol
addiction of heart disease,pulmonary disease, osteoporosis
for four to six times higher.
And if they have as many as sixof those kinds of experiences,
(38:18):
they have a 30 times greaterchance of attempting suicide as
adults.
So the need to create safety andrelationship for children will
change the culture of ourcountry.
If children were honored andrecognized as the foundation of
our future and policies were putin place that protected them and
(38:42):
supported them and gave themsafety in relationship, in one
generation, we can make a reallybig difference.
Kelley Lynch (38:55):
Is there a way that we can recognize when
trauma, when we're not inrelationship?
You know, our ventral vagusnerve is not the one that's
being stimulated and it's ourbrainstem and then we're acting
from that.
Is there a way that we can mayberecognize it and know when that
(39:18):
sort of pain body has taken overand we are acting whether
individually or collectivelyfrom that.
How can we recognize it?
Alaine Duncan (39:28):
I think that is really this, like the question
of the day, you know, the, thereally important question of the
day.
I mean, I know that I'm in mydorsal vegas in my brainstem
when I feel fearful, judging,anxious, and my mind is moving
too fast and I'm wanting to shutthis other person down and I
(39:48):
feel aggressive.
And I know when I'm in myventral Vegas, when I'm able to
transcend all of that and say,this is a person just like me,
who wants to be heard and wantsto be understood and has their
feet on the, they're they'reliving between heaven and earth,
just like I am and how are wegoing to live together?
(40:10):
And I want to figure that out.
You know, like I know when I'mnot in my best in my right self.
I know when I'm d ysregulated.
And I think that our capacity torecognize when we're
dysregulated, when we're in ourbrainstem to just notice it,
because as soon as we notice it,we have a little bit of capacity
(40:31):
to transform it.
So that the task is to recognizewhen we're in regulation, when
we're out of regulation and tocultivate practices that help us
to shift.
So maybe the practice of simplygoing to our feet, or maybe the
practice of looking at thebeautiful tree that's out the
(40:52):
window, or the practice ofrecognizing the presence of our
ancestors at our back, or thepractice of bringing one of
those ancestors who we knew andloved present with us today, or
a close friend who is aregulating presence in our life,
or our pet dog, you know, ormaybe we've got a worry stone
(41:13):
that we can rub.
And we just feel a little bitbetter because we're connecting
somatically with something likewe need to have a whole library
of ways that we bring ourselvesback to safety and relationship.
Maybe it's a meditationpractice.
Maybe it's a prayer practice.
Maybe it's a Tai Chi or Qigongor yoga, you know, whatever
(41:34):
practice it is.
We need to really engage it inorder to cultivate this for our
national body, we need to eachmake our own contribution
towards a more regulatedvibration for the sake of our
nation.
Kelley Lynch (41:47):
Gratitude is another one.
I know when I practice that Ifeel so much better.
Alaine Duncan (41:53):
Right! If we write down something we're
grateful for every day and keepit in a journal, or maybe send
postcards to people that we'regrateful for, or put little
slips of paper in a jar and fillup the jar, you know, it's like
you change the synapses in yourbrain when you operate from
gratitude.
Kelley Lynch (42:12):
That's great.
Wow, Lanie.
That's wonderful.
Thank you.
Okay, bye.
Hey there.
Hello.
(42:33):
So we all know how things aregoing over here.
I mean, that's like televised,analyzed and talked about on the
radio ad nauseum.
We wanted to know what's beenthe response to the election
over there.
Has there been any,
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (42:48):
Yeah, it's quite interesting that
Bangladeshi people take greatinterest in political
activities, whether it'sBangladeshi or it's in the U.S.,
They always have an opinion.
They always have something tosay about it.
Like this guy who lives in asmall town, about two to 300
kilometers away from the Dhakathrew a banquet for 200 people
(43:14):
when he h eard that Joe Bidenwon the presidency.
And when journalists a sked him,you know why this party?
And he said that Joe Biden won.
So he wanted to celebrate itbecause Trump was a bad person
for world peace.
So in order to improve the worldpeace, he is happy that Joe
(43:37):
Biden is the president.
Cindy Sealls (43:41):
So it wasn't even in the big city.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:45):
Big city, big cities of miles away
throwing parties for
Cindy Sealls (43:49):
Our political candidates
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:52):
In the village.
This is, this is like really thenational pastime.
In fact, in one of, one of thedistrict, there was a fight
between two groups supportingthe two parties, one group
supporting Biden, one groupsupporting Trump.
They were clashing with eachother...
Kelley Lynch (44:13):
No way, no way.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (44:17):
Yes that's us.
Cindy Sealls (44:20):
So I think it's safe to say that you all were
closely watching the U.S.
Election.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (44:25):
Of course .
Of course, people were spendingsleepless night watching, you
know, like they grew impatientbecause it takes too long for
your country.
You know, you haven't learnedanything from us.
We come up with results beforeeven the vote is cast.
(44:45):
You cannot come up with theresult after two days or three
days of voting.
You are following our playbook,but you haven't learned
everything.
You don't even know how to knowthe results before the election.
Exactly, exactly.
That's what we do.
We know who would be the nextpresident or who would be the
(45:08):
next prime minister before eventhe election starts.
So you should learn that...
Cindy Sealls (45:12):
That's the safe way to do it in a pandemic.
Kelley Lynch (45:15):
Exactly! No need for voting.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (45:18):
There is a story going around now in, in
different districts fromBangladesh are claiming that Joe
Biden is actually from theirdistrict Northeast corner and
Southwest corner claiming thathe was here as a Jaynal Baton or
something like that, aBangladeshi kind of name, and
(45:39):
then he migrated to the US andchanged his name from Jaynal to
Joe and Baton to Biden.
Cindy Sealls (45:49):
Okay.
So how did he change hiscomplexion?
Kelley Lynch (46:00):
Albino?
Cindy Sealls (46:00):
It's the Michael Jackson thing.
It's vitiligo.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (46:02):
Actually, if you look at a black and white
photograph, everyone here isfair because of how they edit
the photograph in black andwhite...
Kelley Lynch (46:15):
I just want to say, if we had problems with
Barack Obama's birthcertificate, God, this could
start a whole other controversy.
I mean, can you imagine he'sactually from Bangladesh.
Cindy Sealls (46:29):
and those people in Ireland who were celebrating
a couple of days ago, boy, arethey going to be upset?
What he's not from here?
We thought he was here for mehere.
Kelley Lynch (46:39):
Hey, but wait, but wait.
The best part is it will giveDonald Trump something to do.
He can just go on with thebirther thing.
He just has to change thecountry.
Cindy Sealls (46:51):
I can hear it now.
I was listening to this littlepodcast the other day, and guess
what I heard?
I heard Joe Biden is actuallyBangladeshi.
He was born in Bangladesh.
I heard the guy say it.
It will be all over YouTube, andon the news.
And they'll say it wasn't thestuttering, he was trying to get
(47:12):
rid of his Bangladeshi accent.
It had nothing to do withstuttering.
It was just an excuse.
He made up.
That is pretty funny.
I would like Bangladesh, I mean,I wouldn't be able to
communicate unfortunately, butman, if, if all you do is talk
(47:33):
about politics, it's my kind ofplace.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:35):
It is actually you'd feel right at
home.
You know, like the moment youstart talking about politics,
everybody joins and everybodyhas an opinion.
Everybody has insideinformation.
Kelley Lynch (47:50):
Well, thank you, Bangladeshi correspondent.
Thank you for giving us a goodlaugh today.
Cindy Sealls (47:59):
Always great insights from Bangladesh.
Yeah, man.
Incredible.
Kelley Lynch (48:03):
Love it.
I love it.
Take care.
And um, well, we'll see yousoon.
Take care.
Bye.
(48:24):
Thank you so much for listening.
We hope that you enjoyedlistening as much as we enjoyed
making this.
We hope that if you liked it,you'll share it around.
And if you haven't already, thatyou'll subscribe and leave us a
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(48:45):
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And please do take a few minutesto check out the show notes
because that's where you'll findnot only the information about
the person we've been speakingto, but also background
materials, as well as any booksand resources that were
mentioned in the show.
We'll be back next week with thefirst of our, be the change
(49:08):
stories featuring militaryveteran, turned potter, Matt
Marasch.
Matt is improving his potteryskills, which are considerable.
And at the same time, he'sbranching out to work with other
veterans to provideopportunities, to create
pottery, foster continuallearning, and provide fellowship
and opportunities to share theirwork with the community.
(49:31):
See you then.
Bye.
Hello?
Hey, Hey, did you hear the news?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (00:12):
What news?
Kelley Lynch (00:12):
Biden?
He won the election Biden wonPennsylvania.
So that means he won theelection.
Cindy Sealls (00:20):
We just found out today.
Like this morning, it's Saturdaymorning and we're all basically
dancing in the streets.
Kelley Lynch (00:29):
Yeah, exactly.
We just came in.
We were out on the streets.
All of our neighbors were out.
Everybody was.
Horns blasting blocks and blocksaway.
And people cheering blocks awayfrom us.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (00:45):
This is a sad day for Bangladeshi people.
I should say for the worldbecause the show is off then.
We are going to miss hisentertainment.
Trump has been the entertainmentfor the world and Biden, he will
(01:06):
be so boring.
What will happen to Trevor Noahand like Stephen Colbert?
Kelley Lynch (01:15):
Don't worry.
I think you've still got alittle bit, I mean, the grand
finale is coming.
Cindy Sealls (01:19):
We could encourage him to run for office and
Bengladesh.
The posters are already there.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (01:27):
No, no.
We already have too many Trumpsin this country.
We don't need one more.
You can keep him.
We don't mind.
(laughter)
Kelley Lynch (01:45):
Hey, I'm Kelley Lynch.
Welcome to a new normal, apodcast about re-imagining a
future that starts with each oneof us.
Our guest today is ElaineDuncan.
And you might remember Elainefrom the last episode, but as
this traumatic election seasonhas unfolded, we really couldn't
(02:07):
think of anyone better to talkto t han Elaine.
Elaine is the author, as you mayremember, of The Tao of Trauma.
Her East meets West approach totrauma integrates the
neurobiology of traumatic stresswith ancient healing principles
from acupuncture and Asianmedicine healing from this
(02:28):
tumultuous time and findingcommon ground is going to
require some real effort.
It can be tempting to think thatthe answers w e're looking for
lie in retreating further intothe righteous anger and
indignation of tribalism.
But if there's one thing thiselection has made painfully
clear, it's that we cannot votethe other side away.
(02:50):
The path ahead will beuncomfortable and difficult.
Overcoming our differences willrequire us to lean into our
discomfort and develop newskills.
Fortunately, Elaine has morethan a few ideas about how we
can do that.
Lainie Duncan, welcome again tothe podcast.
(03:10):
We did not anticipate callingyou back.
I mean, in fact, in our historyso far, which is only about 15
episodes long, but we have notcalled anybody back the next
week and said, Hey, we reallyneed to talk to you.
But with your focus on trauma,we really felt that you were the
right person for this moment,because there are many of us who
(03:33):
are celebrating, who feel likewe've come off of four years of
trauma.
And there are many of us whofeel like we are about to enter
four years or more of trauma.
So for those who did not listento the last episode, I wondered
if you could tell us a littlebit about yourself and your
(03:55):
focus on trauma.
Alaine Duncan (03:58):
So, I'm Alaine Duncan.
I'm an acupuncturist with a kindof a unique focus on the
integration of Westernneurobiology with Asian
medicine, with an orientationtowards the resolution of
traumatic stress, restoringbalance and regulation for
people.
And I kind of came to thisinterest through my longstanding
(04:21):
desire to have my work as ahealer, not just touch
individuals, but actually createa different culture, a more
whole culture where the needs ofall people can find their way to
fruition, you know, wherethere's space for, for people to
grow and change and develop andinfluence the ballot box,
(04:42):
influence how people relate toeach other in the larger context
of their lives at work and theirneighborhoods and communities
and so forth and create just alittle more regulated world.
So that more impulsive, reactivekind of choices that we all make
when we're feeling overwhelmedor fearful or reactive don't
spill over into domesticviolence or into racial violence
(05:05):
or into child abuse, or, youknow, into those kinds of
things.
In some ways, it grows out of mymembership in the religious
society of friends, where wehave a foundational principle
that we believe that there'sthat of God in all people.
So I want to help people findthat of God that's inside them
and to relate to their neighbors, uh, through that lens as well.
(05:30):
And sort of get out the doubleart sandpaper to take off the
edges that make it difficult forpeople to see another human
being as a human being and, andto transcend the sense of
difference that might be, uh,might be in the way.
So then you are absolutely theperfect person for this moment,
(05:50):
because that is exactly where wefind ourselves.
I mean, I think for all of ushearing the news yesterday that
Joe Biden won Pennsylvania andthus won the election was for
all of us, probably a moment of,ah, it was a collective sigh of
relief.
Kelley Lynch (06:10):
And obviously that is not the same feeling that
many in this country have.
And I think that in the courseof watching the election results
come in, I was really struck byone thing.
And that is that we are more orless, 50, 51 way.
And the other way we cannotexpect to go on in any sort of a
(06:35):
meaningful or productive way, ifwe don't unite in some way, if
we don't find some way acrossthis kind of chasm that we have.
So as somebody who thinks abouttrauma, both individual and
collective, we wondered if youcould talk about this moment and
(06:55):
what it has to tell us aboutperhaps the challenge that we
face and the opportunities thatwe may have going forward.
Alaine Duncan (07:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I actually have a lot ofthoughts about what your, what
your speaking.
I think that there, there are alot of us who every day woke up
during the Trump administration,wondering what next hate speech
was going to come out, what nextpolicy decision was going to be
made.
That was going to have such aprofound expression on
(07:30):
marginalizing people of color,disrespecting science,
disrespecting our planet,creating a sense of arousal that
made it really hard for peopleto rest into themselves and feel
at ease and just the thought ofnot having to wake up every day,
wondering what chaos is going tobe promoted next, I think is
(07:52):
really created an exhale.
I mean, for myself, I couldn'timagine holding my breath for
another four years.
So I think just lifting thatburden off is going to make it
easier to be okay To have aplaying field.
That's just a little morefruitful, you know, more hopeful
about building relationshipsacross differences that that's,
(08:13):
that's, I think probably thebiggest, gift of the Biden win
is that little bit of sense ofspace it's been opened up.
We don't have to be quite sotense all the time.
You know, as Reverend Barbersays, our, our work still
continues towards justicetowards peace, towards equality
that wasn't going to change nomatter who won the election.
Kelley Lynch (08:45):
Just listening to your explanation of the relief
that many people felt.
I guess I'm trying to get myhead around the idea of trauma
to a country and how yourpractice of helping people move
through trauma might be used tohelp us in the collective.
Alaine Duncan (09:08):
I think that our nation, first of all, is a
trauma survivor.
So we can look at our nationthrough the lens of the
autonomic nervous system and geta lot of information.
For instance, over the summerwith the murder of George Floyd,
we saw tremendous release ofsympathetic arousal that had
been forwarded for decades, ifnot centuries, and by
(09:32):
sympathetic activation.
What I mean is the urge toprotect and defend that's in our
biology when either we are beingthreatened or someone that who
we perceive as being vulnerableis being threatened.
We have a biological urge tomobilize a fight or flight
response in order to protectthem.
(09:54):
There are legions of stories andexperiences, particularly in the
community of color where peopleweren't allowed to move that
biologic urge out of theirtissues.
So when you want to push someoneaway or push them off or defend
(10:15):
yourself, and you're not allowedto complete that in your
musculature, it's remains behindin your muscles.
And if it's in there, it has tomove out.
The healing process is allowingpeople to complete whatever was
left incomplete in the variousphases of their experience of
the threat response.
The self-protective response.
(10:36):
The interesting thing is thatthere have been some wonderful
studies about epigenetics, theinheritance of traumatic stress.
So those experiences of thwartedurges to protect and defend,
actually change the genetic codein the survivor.
And they pass that informationon to their progeny.
(10:59):
In humans.
The research goes threegenerations in mice, they've
discerned seven generations ofdistortions and cortisol,
adrenaline, aberrant behavior,et cetera, of inherited trauma.
So, you know, I think a lot ofwhat we would witnessed over
this summer was 400 years ofthwarted urge to protect and
defend.
(11:19):
But what we've also witnessedwith the release of some of that
sympathetic arousal is a biggerplatform to talk about all these
things through like the state ofMississippi, put a Magnolia on
their flag and took theConfederate flag off.
That's a good thing.
And there are books being soldand study groups and
conversation groups aboutmatters of race that never were
(11:41):
happening before.
So I think there's a dialogue.
There's a sense of possibility.
There's more openness.
We're starting to look morecritically at our history.
And, and that's because therewas this release of sympathetic
arousal that allowed more spacein our national body politics,
more space to have these, theseconversations and potentially
(12:02):
these transforming When there isthat thwarted state, we're using
our brainstem to attempt to havecreative thought, but we can't
think creatively with ourbrainstem.
(12:23):
We can only think as if we're ina corner lashing out against a
threat, we can't be thoughtful.
We can't be reflective.
We can't consider the impact ofseven generations forward seven
generations back.
We need our frontal cortex to dothat.
And we can only use our frontalcortex when we feel safe in our
relationships and in ourselves,the whole issue of four years of
(12:48):
daily, you could call themmicro- aggressions, but not all
of them were micro that createdagain, another experience of
that thwarted arousal.
And this is really challengingduring the time of quantity to
find a sense of saferelationship with other people,
to have a vibrational experiencewith another human being, where
you're in sync with each other.
(13:09):
It's very hard.
There are actually, you know,there's stories of increased
levels of suicide amongstteenagers, and we need the
regulating influence of ourtribe, which leads me to want to
talk about tribe, because Ithink this is maybe key to
understanding the fact thatdisturbs me so greatly about
(13:30):
this election, that more whitepeople voted for Trump in 2020
than voted for him in 2016.
So getting a little bit bigger,a little bigger context.
And there's this guy namedSebastian Junger who wrote this
book called tribe.
And what he looked at was ourancestral need.
(13:54):
Like when we were living on thesavannas, we needed at least one
person in our group who couldhear and discern the saber tooth
tiger in the Bush.
And then we needed enough of asense of resonance with our
fellow tribe members to be ableto sense that activation, that
(14:16):
that person experienced whenthey discerned the saber tooth
tiger.
We needed to be in a regulatedrelationship with them so that
we could as a tribe survive.
So in an evolutionary way, wehave cultivated a way to be in
sync with people who we discernare members of our group in very
(14:40):
subtle ways that are expressedmore through culture than
through cognitive analyticalunderstanding.
It's just a vibration ofculture.
So returning soldiers will oftenlong for a return to the
battlefield because of the senseof intimacy that's created
there, that they don't find whenthey come home.
(15:03):
This, this, I found fascinatingin England during World War II,
there was a strong movement totake the children and move them
to the countryside with them outof London and take them to the
countryside in order for them tobe safe from the bombing of
England.
But in adulthood, the childrenwho are taken away fared much
more poorly than the childrenwho stayed with their families
(15:25):
and parents, even though theyhad to be rushed into bomb
shelters.
And where their life was put atrisk many, many times, but they
had the experience of intimatebonding.
And the kids who were taken tothe countryside, you know,
didn't have their families withthem.
They were safer, but they feltmore alone.
So this need for tribalconnection is really deep and it
(15:50):
is rooted in our biology ofsurvival.
So the problem then is with theinvention of race in the early
16 hundreds, no before thenEuropean colonists were thought
of as English or Scots orGermans or poles or, you know,
whatever they were, they weren'tthought of as white.
It wasn't until the 16 hundredswhen Southern plantation owners
(16:15):
needed to create a divisionbetween white sharecroppers and
enslaved Africans, that theconcept of race was even a
concept.
And they used it, cultivated itin order to separate people
whose interests were actuallyaligned.
And that conceptual framework ofrace and white supremacy has
been cultivated in increasinglynuanced ways for 350 years.
(16:41):
So my concern or my sense ofwhat's next is largely about how
can white people help create aculture shift amongst other
white people.
Things like finding ouralignment across all races
called African-American people,Latinos, Asians, indigenous
(17:04):
people for quality education forour children for reliable and
safe housing for good healthcare.
Like we have so much more incommon than we have differences.
So it's not about lecturingpeople about policy or lecturing
people about how their thinkingis right or wrong.
It has to be about creating asense of safety across
(17:26):
differences and unity.
It says, we all want the samething.
Let's come together and createit for ourselves.
Kelley Lynch (17:47):
Cindy and I have a conversation group where we talk
With people who are from bothsides of the divide and they are
people that we are inrelationship with.
So that is a very helpful thing.
I think it makes all thedifference because we understand
that the other person inherentlyis a good person.
(18:09):
Inherently is a moral person.
You are listening for the sharedvalues.
You're listening to give themthe benefit of the doubt.
And I don't see a lot of that oneither side as a person who
works on trauma.
Are there any techniques that wemight use as a collective to
(18:33):
help us build those bridges?
Alaine Duncan (18:36):
I think we're called to some pretty deep
listening, and I think it'sfabulous that you have this
group of people with diverseopinions and beliefs in that
you're able to sit down witheach other and talk.
And certainly, you know, we'recoming up on the Thanksgiving
holiday and you know, whatholiday is more notorious for
bringing together differentopinions in one family.
(18:57):
So, you know, I think that whensomeone speaks really strongly
about, I'm afraid of theviolence in the inner city and
it's, you know, we know that'sthe dog whistle or, all these
immigrants coming and, andthey're just going to take all
our jobs.
And, you know, I'm really scaredabout that or this election was
stolen and dah, dah, dah, Imight say.
(19:18):
So I hear that you're a personwith strong opinions.
Tell me more.
So then I haven't made them bador wrong for the content of
their opinion.
I've simply noticed that theyare a person with a strong
opinion.
So how is it for me to noticethat you're a person with a
strong opinion?
Well, I finally feel heard forthe, you know, maybe for the
(19:40):
first time, maybe this person isjust longing to be heard, you
know, and they've been shut downall their life.
So can we hear, they're longingto be heard and then maybe go a
little bit further and say, sowhat happens inside you when you
feel heard by me?
Well, I feel like I can exhale alittle bit or I feel a little
(20:01):
softening in my, in my chest.
Great.
So let's let you notice thatlittle bit of softening in your
chest.
Well, yeah.
You know, when I was a kid, mydad would just slap me when I
had my opinion different fromhis.
Yeah.
So stay with that for a littlebit.
And then maybe they, they gointo tears or they go into
(20:23):
exhale or they go into deepreflection or, you know,
something starts to move intheir tissues because really
they're longing to be heard isrooted back in that childhood
experience.
And it's being played out todayin having a strong vituperative
opinion that may or may notactually be owned by them to you
(20:43):
.
City's words owned by theirhigher self or their true self.
It's a trauma overlay of wantingto be heard, which who doesn't
want to be heard, who doesn'twant to have their opinions
listened to.
We all do.
And sometimes it isn't untilthose opinions are listened to
deeply that we can understandwhere they're coming from and
(21:05):
maybe have a little morecapacity to put our feet in
someone else's shoes.
Kelley Lynch (21:21):
If the United States was to basically walk
into your practice, how wouldyou treat the United States?
Alaine Duncan (21:31):
I might ask them before we say anything, or do
anything to just take a fewminutes and hum together.
Let's hum, the star Spangledbanner, you know, let's hum
America, the beautiful.
And when you, when we hum, we'reactually sending a vibration
(21:52):
onto the ventral vagus nervethat supports our accessing of
our frontal cortex, whichsupports us towards more
relational diplomatic kind ofsolutions to conflict.
So we all need our ventral vagusnerve tickled a little bit.
So if we start meetings withhumming or we start meetings
(22:15):
with a song because trauma is avibrational illness.
And so it needs to be met byvibrational medicine.
So if we can play catch witheach other with a ball or we can
play music with each other, orwe can engage in partner dance,
or we can engage in communitytheater where we have to be in
(22:39):
resonant connection with eachother and take cues and we're
actually attuning our heart toother people's heart.
So we need those kinds ofopportunities.
The other thing that I wouldalways advocate, and we can
maybe all do it right here, takea minute and notice your feet on
the floor.
(22:59):
Notice your feet on the groundand notice that we're all
touching American soil and weall have similar needs and
interests in quality education,safety for our children on the
streets.
Just get in touch with how weall want that for ourselves and
(23:23):
our children, no matter whetherwe're Latino or Jewish or
African-American or Asian.
These are things that we allwant.
So just take a minute to putyour feet on the ground and
notice how through the earthyou're connected to every other
American.
In fact, you're connected toevery other person on planet.
(23:46):
In me right now, as I considerthat, it slows me down on the
inside.
I feel a little deeper in mybody.
I feel a little slower and Ifeel a little more sense of
relationship even though I'msitting in a room all by myself
and looking at you guys on thisscreen.
So if I can have my feet on theground and connected to the
(24:08):
earth and my head in connectionwith the heavens, this is what
Asian medicine says that humanbeings are in connection with
the earth.
And with the heavens, like whenwe put our arms outstretched and
our feet outstretched We are thevitality, the life that exists
between heaven and earth.
So when we exist in this spacebetween heaven and earth, is
(24:32):
there a space for people who wemight think of as different to
be in that same world?
Now back to those times on theSavannah, when we were part of
the tribe that needed to noticethe saber tooth tiger, if there
was a tribe that had differentcustoms of language or dress, or
(24:53):
we would look at them as other,and they would be an, an
invading intruding forest thatwe would not trust.
So this capacity to trust peoplewho look different, who, who
have a different culture, itgoes way back and the need to,
instead of focus on thedifferences to find the
similarities is historic andtakes work.
(25:15):
If after we've taken a moment tohum or sing or play catch or
sway with each other, as peoplenotice that they feel a little
more regulated, give everybody amoment to notice.
Gosh, I feel heavier in my body.
Gosh, I feel lighter in my body.
Gosh, I, I feel a little smileon my face.
(25:37):
I feel a sense of connectionwith the people who are here.
All those things give peopletime, maybe even in small
breakout groups to explore theirsensate experience that's now
different.
Because what we're trying to dois help people harvest new
synaptic connections in theirneurobiology that are actually
(25:58):
reflections of greaterregulation that will support the
ventral vagus nerve to negotiatemore diplomatic solutions to
conflict.
Kelley Lynch (26:20):
How would you use that in response to what we face
as a result of this election andthe challenges we may face
moving forward?
Alaine Duncan (26:33):
You know, in my world, in the world of
acupuncture, there are meridiansand acupuncture points.
I get to use needles tostimulate a vibrational message
that's carried through the, andtouches body, mind, and spirit
to help restore regulation inindividuals.
And we can do the same when wewalk down the street or relate
to our neighbors.
(26:53):
If we do our best to project, anexperience of equanimity and,
and allowing the person we'respeaking with to be
uncomfortable, but us to not gointo their discomfort with them.
If we can hold balance andregulation and allow them their
moment of expressing their, youknow, their great feeling, their
(27:17):
great emotion.
And I hear you, I hear you'reterrified.
I hear you're really pissed.
I hear you're profoundly sad.
I hear you're struggling to sortout, what are you going to take
away from this election?
I hear you that this really tookyou by surprise.
And it was hard for you to evennotice that there was this other
vibration that was movingthrough our nation.
(27:39):
Like, can we hear those fivestates and allow them their
place and to be heard and, and,and mirrored back without
mirroring the dysregulation andgoing down the rabbit hole with
them.
Our heart is a, is a bigelectromagnetic field, right?
It's the biggest electromagneticfield in our bodies.
And this is the work of theheart math Institute.
(28:02):
When our heart is regulated, youknow, the heartbeat is a regular
rhythm and it's coherent andit's strong, but not too strong.
It's that resonance actuallymoves six to eight feet out and
influences the cardiac coherenceof people six to eight feet
around us.
So granted we're supposed tostay six feet away from each
(28:24):
other, but maybe when I likelook at you, even into this
screen with a sense ofrelationship and connection in
our eyes, maybe it influences,you.
Maybe I can make that sense ofequanimity and regulation in my
heart actually communicatethrough the screen.
So it's all vibrational, youknow, it's all, what are we
(28:45):
putting out?
And what are we allowing in?
And the good thing is that ourregulation, our regulated state
has a stronger influence thansomeone else's dysregulated
state.
If we're in a crowded room,which we never are these days,
but, um, and someone who'shighly dysregulated comes in and
(29:07):
starts shouting, or, you know,being disruptive, we may get
hooked into their dysregulation,but the more that we have
cultivated ourself to be able totolerate disagreement or be able
to tolerate our own discomfortand stay in regulation, but have
a wider zone of tolerance, wecan influence them more than
(29:29):
they can influence us.
Our regulation will influencethem.
So the task is to cultivate ourown capacity to tolerate our
discomfort.
And here's the key to recognizeand make a distinction between
I'm uncomfortable and I'm unsafebecause if we mistakenly say to
(29:50):
ourselves, I'm unsafe, we willgo into our brainstem where we
are more likely to makeimpulsive actions that will be
violent and potentially harmful.
So we need to be able to knowthe difference between I'm
uncomfortable and I'm unsafe.
And it is immoral for me to blowmy anxiety, my discomfort,
(30:17):
through someone else's body.
I need to own my own discomfortand seek to expand my capacity,
to tolerate my discomfort andenlarge my zone of comfort, my
zone of resiliency.
So I can stay regulated evenwhen I feel uncomfortable.
Kelley Lynch (30:47):
This country was founded on high ideals of
equality and justice andLiberty, some specifically for
wealthy white land owning men.
Everybody else experienced theother side of that equation.
And on the extreme end of thescale, what that meant for the
(31:10):
native Americans was genocideand for the African-Americans
slavery.
So there are a bunch of peoplewho have experienced this huge
trauma.
And while I think we, as whiteAmericans particularly can think
that perhaps that trauma livesonly in the African-American
(31:31):
community or only in the nativeAmerican community, it also
lives within all of us.
I mean, there are images thatshow almost a picnic atmosphere
with children and picnicbaskets, and people dressed up
for the occasion to watch alynching.
And then you watch that officerwith his knee on the neck of
(31:54):
George Floyd, and that has atremendously powerful and
visceral impact.
There is a collective traumathat happens in that moment.
I mean, if it's hard for me towatch a mouse dying on a glue
trap, I can only imagine thetrauma that this generates
(32:15):
individually and collectively inour society.
I wondered if you could talkmore about that from an
epigenetic perspective,
Alaine Duncan (32:26):
Colonists, European Americans came to this
country out of about a thousandyears of history of plague,
tortures drawing and quartering,beheadings with heads placed on
poles in the, in the citysquare, burnings at the stake,
lots of religious persecution,lots of trauma.
(32:47):
And there's one theory and thisis, um, explained really
beautifully by Resmaa Menakem inhis book, My Grandmother's Hands
that says that the capacity of aEuropean American to watch a
lynching, you know, as if it wasa picnic was rooted in their own
(33:07):
trauma response and the shutdownthat they needed to do in their
own hearts, their own ventralVegas in order to cope with the
epigenetic impact of thesehundreds and hundreds of years
of European torture.
Human beings have been doingugly and horrible things to each
other for since time immemorial.
(33:30):
You know, it's not like it'snew, it's not like America is
unique, but certainly thatcapacity to witness a lynching.
Maybe you're, you're taken thereas a child by your parent, you
know, and taught that you shouldbe able to like withstand
looking at this without your ownresponse.
(33:54):
The task actually for whiteAmericans in the longterm is to
cultivate enough softness in ourhearts, that we have the
capacity to step into the shoesof a black and indigenous people
of color, latinos, people whoare different from ourselves to,
(34:14):
to transcend the shutdown in ourheart, that's required us to be
so braced in order to getthrough life, that we are unable
to experience the threat thatthese people who are different
from us go through every day.
So we have our own whiteAmericans have their own trauma
(34:35):
healing to do in order to betteraccess their heart and be able
to transcend this sense ofseparation and distance.
Kelley Lynch (34:48):
Is there an epigenetic component to all of
this?
In the last episode, you talkedabout some very interesting
studies with mice, maybe there'ssome other interesting studies
you could share.
Alaine Duncan (35:02):
There's another study with mice, where they
tormented the mothers.
They put them in enclosedconfined spaces.
They dumped them in cold water.
They don't like cold water.
They separated them from theirpups and the moms developed high
cortisol levels, dysregulatedhormonal balance, aberrant
behavior, all the marks of atrauma response.
(35:24):
And their pups similarly hadmanifestations of trauma
response, both in their bloodlevels and blood chemistries and
in their behavior.
And that continued for sevengenerations.
So with mice, we can look atmultiple generations easier than
we can with human beings becausethey, they rotate through the
(35:45):
generations faster.
So seven generations later, themice are still having aberrant
behavior and aberrant cortisoland adrenaline levels.
The next generation gets put inwhat I like to call Mouse Canyon
Ranch, you know, like big cage,carpeted floor, games and toys
(36:05):
that stimulate braindevelopment, plenty of food, all
of those kinds of things.
In one generation, their pupsdidn't show dysregulation.
One generation in Mouse CanyonRanch transformed the epigenetic
impact of these multiplegenerations of sense of threat.
(36:26):
So while human physiology isquite a bit more sophisticated
than mouse physiology, it does,in my mind, lend some
credibility for the vibrationalquality of restoring regulation
in children and young adults whoare yet to have their own
children.
If we can restore regulation atthe level of epigenetic impact,
(36:50):
we can change the vibration forfuture generations.
Kelley Lynch (37:01):
So how would you do that in this particular case?
I mean, I guess it's kind oflike going back to the idea of
America as a trauma patient.
Alaine Duncan (37:12):
Well, I think you do things like establish
policies that help children andyoung adults experience safety
and relationship.
Dr.
Nadine Burke Harris has a Tedtalk.
She's the surgeon general ofCalifornia.
She's a pediatrician and she hasthe most thoughtful explanation
(37:34):
of the research on what theycall adverse childhood
experiences and the impact onadult morbidity and mortality.
It's all happening at theCenters for Disease Control now,
but children who have multipleexperiences of life threat, and
maybe that loss of a parent,being bullied in school,
(37:55):
difficult birth experience, allkinds of different things,
addiction in the homeimprisonment of a parent.
If they have four or more ofthose kinds of experiences,
their risk of autoimmuneillness, of drug and alcohol
addiction of heart disease,pulmonary disease, osteoporosis
for four to six times higher.
And if they have as many as sixof those kinds of experiences,
(38:18):
they have a 30 times greaterchance of attempting suicide as
adults.
So the need to create safety andrelationship for children will
change the culture of ourcountry.
If children were honored andrecognized as the foundation of
our future and policies were putin place that protected them and
(38:42):
supported them and gave themsafety in relationship, in one
generation, we can make a reallybig difference.
Kelley Lynch (38:55):
Is there a way that we can recognize when
trauma, when we're not inrelationship?
You know, our ventral vagusnerve is not the one that's
being stimulated and it's ourbrainstem and then we're acting
from that.
Is there a way that we can mayberecognize it and know when that
(39:18):
sort of pain body has taken overand we are acting whether
individually or collectivelyfrom that.
How can we recognize it?
Alaine Duncan (39:28):
I think that is really this, like the question
of the day, you know, the, thereally important question of the
day.
I mean, I know that I'm in mydorsal vegas in my brainstem
when I feel fearful, judging,anxious, and my mind is moving
too fast and I'm wanting to shutthis other person down and I
(39:48):
feel aggressive.
And I know when I'm in myventral Vegas, when I'm able to
transcend all of that and say,this is a person just like me,
who wants to be heard and wantsto be understood and has their
feet on the, they're they'reliving between heaven and earth,
just like I am and how are wegoing to live together?
(40:10):
And I want to figure that out.
You know, like I know when I'mnot in my best in my right self.
I know when I'm d ysregulated.
And I think that our capacity torecognize when we're
dysregulated, when we're in ourbrainstem to just notice it,
because as soon as we notice it,we have a little bit of capacity
(40:31):
to transform it.
So that the task is to recognizewhen we're in regulation, when
we're out of regulation and tocultivate practices that help us
to shift.
So maybe the practice of simplygoing to our feet, or maybe the
practice of looking at thebeautiful tree that's out the
(40:52):
window, or the practice ofrecognizing the presence of our
ancestors at our back, or thepractice of bringing one of
those ancestors who we knew andloved present with us today, or
a close friend who is aregulating presence in our life,
or our pet dog, you know, ormaybe we've got a worry stone
(41:13):
that we can rub.
And we just feel a little bitbetter because we're connecting
somatically with something likewe need to have a whole library
of ways that we bring ourselvesback to safety and relationship.
Maybe it's a meditationpractice.
Maybe it's a prayer practice.
Maybe it's a Tai Chi or Qigongor yoga, you know, whatever
(41:34):
practice it is.
We need to really engage it inorder to cultivate this for our
national body, we need to eachmake our own contribution
towards a more regulatedvibration for the sake of our
nation.
Kelley Lynch (41:47):
Gratitude is another one.
I know when I practice that Ifeel so much better.
Alaine Duncan (41:53):
Right! If we write down something we're
grateful for every day and keepit in a journal, or maybe send
postcards to people that we'regrateful for, or put little
slips of paper in a jar and fillup the jar, you know, it's like
you change the synapses in yourbrain when you operate from
gratitude.
Kelley Lynch (42:12):
That's great.
Wow, Lanie.
That's wonderful.
Thank you.
Okay, bye.
Hey there.
Hello.
(42:33):
So we all know how things aregoing over here.
I mean, that's like televised,analyzed and talked about on the
radio ad nauseum.
We wanted to know what's beenthe response to the election
over there.
Has there been any,
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (42:48):
Yeah, it's quite interesting that
Bangladeshi people take greatinterest in political
activities, whether it'sBangladeshi or it's in the U.S.,
They always have an opinion.
They always have something tosay about it.
Like this guy who lives in asmall town, about two to 300
kilometers away from the Dhakathrew a banquet for 200 people
(43:14):
when he h eard that Joe Bidenwon the presidency.
And when journalists a sked him,you know why this party?
And he said that Joe Biden won.
So he wanted to celebrate itbecause Trump was a bad person
for world peace.
So in order to improve the worldpeace, he is happy that Joe
(43:37):
Biden is the president.
Cindy Sealls (43:41):
So it wasn't even in the big city.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:45):
Big city, big cities of miles away
throwing parties for
Cindy Sealls (43:49):
Our political candidates
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:52):
In the village.
This is, this is like really thenational pastime.
In fact, in one of, one of thedistrict, there was a fight
between two groups supportingthe two parties, one group
supporting Biden, one groupsupporting Trump.
They were clashing with eachother...
Kelley Lynch (44:13):
No way, no way.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (44:17):
Yes that's us.
Cindy Sealls (44:20):
So I think it's safe to say that you all were
closely watching the U.S.
Election.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (44:25):
Of course .
Of course, people were spendingsleepless night watching, you
know, like they grew impatientbecause it takes too long for
your country.
You know, you haven't learnedanything from us.
We come up with results beforeeven the vote is cast.
(44:45):
You cannot come up with theresult after two days or three
days of voting.
You are following our playbook,but you haven't learned
everything.
You don't even know how to knowthe results before the election.
Exactly, exactly.
That's what we do.
We know who would be the nextpresident or who would be the
(45:08):
next prime minister before eventhe election starts.
So you should learn that...
Cindy Sealls (45:12):
That's the safe way to do it in a pandemic.
Kelley Lynch (45:15):
Exactly! No need for voting.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (45:18):
There is a story going around now in, in
different districts fromBangladesh are claiming that Joe
Biden is actually from theirdistrict Northeast corner and
Southwest corner claiming thathe was here as a Jaynal Baton or
something like that, aBangladeshi kind of name, and
(45:39):
then he migrated to the US andchanged his name from Jaynal to
Joe and Baton to Biden.
Cindy Sealls (45:49):
Okay.
So how did he change hiscomplexion?
Kelley Lynch (46:00):
Albino?
Cindy Sealls (46:00):
It's the Michael Jackson thing.
It's vitiligo.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (46:02):
Actually, if you look at a black and white
photograph, everyone here isfair because of how they edit
the photograph in black andwhite...
Kelley Lynch (46:15):
I just want to say, if we had problems with
Barack Obama's birthcertificate, God, this could
start a whole other controversy.
I mean, can you imagine he'sactually from Bangladesh.
Cindy Sealls (46:29):
and those people in Ireland who were celebrating
a couple of days ago, boy, arethey going to be upset?
What he's not from here?
We thought he was here for mehere.
Kelley Lynch (46:39):
Hey, but wait, but wait.
The best part is it will giveDonald Trump something to do.
He can just go on with thebirther thing.
He just has to change thecountry.
Cindy Sealls (46:51):
I can hear it now.
I was listening to this littlepodcast the other day, and guess
what I heard?
I heard Joe Biden is actuallyBangladeshi.
He was born in Bangladesh.
I heard the guy say it.
It will be all over YouTube, andon the news.
And they'll say it wasn't thestuttering, he was trying to get
(47:12):
rid of his Bangladeshi accent.
It had nothing to do withstuttering.
It was just an excuse.
He made up.
That is pretty funny.
I would like Bangladesh, I mean,I wouldn't be able to
communicate unfortunately, butman, if, if all you do is talk
(47:33):
about politics, it's my kind ofplace.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:35):
It is actually you'd feel right at
home.
You know, like the moment youstart talking about politics,
everybody joins and everybodyhas an opinion.
Everybody has insideinformation.
Kelley Lynch (47:50):
Well, thank you, Bangladeshi correspondent.
Thank you for giving us a goodlaugh today.
Cindy Sealls (47:59):
Always great insights from Bangladesh.
Yeah, man.
Incredible.
Kelley Lynch (48:03):
Love it.
I love it.
Take care.
And um, well, we'll see yousoon.
Take care.
Bye.
(48:24):
Thank you so much for listening.
We hope that you enjoyedlistening as much as we enjoyed
making this.
We hope that if you liked it,you'll share it around.
And if you haven't already, thatyou'll subscribe and leave us a
review.
All of that is super easy.
Now on our new website, a newnormal podcast.com there you'll
(48:45):
also find links to our Instagramfeed.
And please do take a few minutesto check out the show notes
because that's where you'll findnot only the information about
the person we've been speakingto, but also background
materials, as well as any booksand resources that were
mentioned in the show.
We'll be back next week with thefirst of our, be the change
(49:08):
stories featuring militaryveteran, turned potter, Matt
Marasch.
Matt is improving his potteryskills, which are considerable.
And at the same time, he'sbranching out to work with other
veterans to provideopportunities, to create
pottery, foster continuallearning, and provide fellowship
and opportunities to share theirwork with the community.
(49:31):
See you then.
Bye.
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