July 17, 2020 • 54 mins
Is there one (bitter) pill that, consumed regularly, could save us from COVID-19? As cases surge across the country, our guest, hospital pharmacist Samira Duja, reflects on the challenges of keeping up with the demand for medicine in her New York hospital during the spike—and we take the opportunity to rummage through the medicine cabinet in search of the only remedy guaranteed to slow the spread of a pandemic: clear, accurate information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelley Lynch (00:02):
Man, I just get so confused by this whole thing of
what is the even truth anymore.
What is what's real?
What's not?
It kinda makes you crazy.
I mean, you've been seeing allthis stuff that I've been trying
(00:23):
to figure out from other partsof my family who believe things
that are so entirely differentthan what I believe.
I don't want to be somebodywho's like just dismissing it
out of hand.
And yet, it makes me kind ofcrazy.
(00:43):
It eats up all of my mentalspace trying to figure out well,
is this true?
Is there something you know,that I can't see?
I don't even know what tobelieve sometimes.
Cindy Sealls (00:57):
Exactly.
We're in an ambiguous universewhere you don't really know what
is going on anywhere.
Whether it's the virus, whetherit's racism or not, the economy
is doing well or not, a mask isgood, or maybe it's not.
(01:21):
You go online, you can find allkinds of articles for and
against.
And sometimes even the dataaround this virus is
inconsistent.
For instance, I'm just going togive you one instance.
I'm always checking the COVIDcases and deaths.
(01:42):
And I swear to God, Kelley, Idon't think one of those things
matches.
Every one I go to has differentnumbers.
I'm not joking.
Okay, if I already have in mymind that this is fishy, this
whole thing.
(02:02):
And then I go online and I'mgoing to supposedly reputable
websites, you know.
I'm not going to Joe's COVIDdata.com.
I'm going to the CDC and JohnHopkins and it's all different.
Now, I don't know if it'sbecause their reporting is at
(02:24):
the times that they have toreport the numbers is different.
I don't know.
And I almost feel like saying tothem, report them all at the
same time.
So yeah.
You know, I can understandpeople being confused.
Kelley Lynch (02:39):
But I I think we were headed down this rabbit
hole even before.
Cindy Sealls (02:46):
And I think a little bit, if there's a little
bit of history there where therewas some kind of, you know,
incident that looks a littlefishy, I think that, too, plays
into people's like they're intotheir mind of, Hmm, that seems
(03:11):
strange.
But also too, I was justthinking, and you have said this
before.
I think the internetcorroborates a lot of our
craziness.
I remember when I used to go tothe barbershop to get my hair
cut.
It was mostly guys and theywould be in there and they would
just be talking about thecraziest stuff.
(03:35):
Yeah.
This is going on.
And you know, this is going tohappen and, and that's going to
happen.
And then I found out that's kindof part of the black culture to
have these suspicions about allkinds of stuff.
Before you can have some crazytalk and you had to go to the
barbershop to get people tocorroborate your crazy talk.
(03:59):
Well, maybe you were on thecorner or something.
And now all of us who have thiscrazy talk in our head can
Google, you know, now you're notthinking it's true, but you're
like, bam.
Look at YouTube videos galore.
The earth is flat.
They're lying to you.
(04:20):
So you go look at all of this,look at all of this evidence.
I feel like I'm living at abarbershop 24/7.
Before you know, I was in therelike 45 minutes.
I was out of there and I wouldbe laughing to myself.
Oh my God, those people a recrazy in here.
But n ow I'm living in abarbershop.
Everything is a f riggingconspiracy theory.
Kelley Lynch (04:51):
Hi, I'm Kelley Lynch.
Welcome to a new normal apodcast about how we're adapting
to life during the pandemic andwhere we go from here, I guess
today is Samira Duja.
Samira is a pharmacist who worksin a New York city hospital.
As cases continue to surge inthe U S and around the world.
(05:12):
I talked with Samira about theCovid spike in New York.
She witnessed most of the crisisfrom her basement office down
the hall from the morgue behindher computer screen, as she
tried to keep the medicineflowing.
Samira, welcome to the podcast.
Samira Duja (05:28):
Thank you for having me.
Kelley Lynch (05:30):
Can you tell us about your job?
Tell us what you do.
Samira Duja (05:35):
Sure.
I've been a pharmacist for about15 years now.
More specifically, I am amanager in a hospital in Queens,
and I pretty much manageoperations, our drug supply for
the hospital and managing, likegetting in medications.
And also just making sure thenursing units are fully stocked.
(06:01):
So really like full control ofdrug, supply management, but
also overseeing operations andpersonnel within that
department.
Kelley Lynch (06:08):
Can you give us a timeline for how everything
played out in your hospital,around the COVID crisis?
Samira Duja (06:16):
It started in January, you know, on a
departmental level, we had thesedaily noon huddles where all of
like all seven, eight managersgets together and talks about
any issues, any problems, anyconcerns that are going on
within the inside of thehospital, but also inside of our
department.
And back in January, when it hitthe news about COVID in China,
(06:41):
conversations obviously startedhappening as far as this is
going to affect us down the lineand just keeping an eye on the
news.
From my perspective asking, isthere any medications that treat
this, do I need to startstocking up?
And my infectious diseasepharmacist basically saying
Samira coronavirus, isn'tsomething that's ever been
(07:04):
managed by medication.
There's no treatment for it.
It's really just supportivecare.
So there's really nothing youcan do right now.
And me saying, okay, so this wasJanuary.
In February, we started havingrandom cases in the States.
And one Monday morning Iremember coming into work and
(07:25):
there's news vans all in frontof the hospital.
And I wasn't sure what happened,got into the department.
And everyone saying they had asuspected coronavirus patient
come through and then same thingwith a neighboring hospital in
Queens.
And so that's where the newsmedia was coming from.
So now it's like, okay, this isreal, right?
(07:46):
This is starting to feel realfor us.
Again, anything we can do toprepare, nobody really knows.
Like nobody really knows how toprepare for this.
And as far from a medicationstandpoint, they hadn't really
figured out any medications fromwhat we were hearing that treat
this.
So again, nothing I can do on myend.
And then a couple of weekslater, mid March now a week
(08:10):
before it hit us, we had casescome through at our sister
hospital located in Queens.
And what ended up happening wasa patient almost seen in the
clinic was sent to the ER, theyeven got admitted and then ended
up being positive for COVID.
And now the whole hospital'sgoing, Oh my God, this patient
just interacted with how manyemployees.
(08:33):
And again, now it's reallystarting to be real.
And about three or four dayslater, we got our first patient.
And so, you know, again, nothingI can really do.
I was stocking up on certainantibiotics for pneumonia
because testing wasn't up andrunning, right?
So we didn't know if we weregoing to be able to get testing,
to test for this for, in ourpatients.
(08:54):
So I to stock up on pneumoniameds, because one way of trying
to rule it out is let's rule outpneumonia.
So we're going to treat them forpneumonia.
If they're not getting betterwith the antibiotics for
pneumonia, then chances are,they have COVID is how they were
starting to rule this out.
And so pneumonia drugscompletely out of stock now at
(09:16):
all my wholesalers because thisis exactly what all the other
hospitals are doing.
So for me, life just got hard,not being able to get these
medications in and I'm placingback order after back order,
after back order with mywholesaler.
And so now COVID actually in ourhospital.
So these patients are now, ournumbers are starting to go up.
(09:38):
These patients are starting toget worse and ending up in the
ICU.
And you know, I remember one ofthe first things was respiratory
calling to say, we need to makesure we're stocked up on
albuterol inhalers.
So now I'm trying to stock up oninhalers.
I'm trying to stock up on IVantibiotics and then patients
(09:59):
are ending up in the ICU.
And so now ICU medications,where I was buying, you know
what I would typically buying inabout a month for ICU
medications, I'm flying throughin a matter of a day.
For example, everyone knowspropofol was the Michael Jackson
drug.
Propofol is a sedative.
(10:20):
It basically keeps patientssedated while they're intubated
in the ICU.
And so, you know, everybody whoremembers this medication knows
that it was the medicationMichael Jackson was using to
help him sleep and whichessentially killed him.
But for patients who wereintubated, they're needing to be
extremely sedated.
(10:41):
So they're not thrashing aboutwith a tube down their throat.
And so the amount of propofol Iwould buy in a month, I was
going through in a day, maybehours.
And trying to keep up with thesupply of propofol of other
sedatives of pain meds that areused in the ICU because all of
these patients need pain meds tobe intubated, too because it's
(11:05):
not comfortable having a tubedown your throat.
So I think every hospital isscrambling trying to get drugs.
And what ends up happening isevery single hospital is now
trying to stock up, completelywiping out the drug supply in
our wholesalers.
And then it's kinda likeeveryone's trying to figure out
how to get more drugs and how dowe keep our patients sedated?
(11:26):
And are we going to run out ofdrugs?
So for about a month, maybe twomonths, I'm waking up at 1:00
AM, 4:00 AM to see, Did they getany shipments in on the
overnight?
Did something get released onthe overnight while everybody
else was sleeping?
Can I snatch something up?
Basically what I live, breathedand ate was trying to get drugs
into the hospital.
(11:47):
Fortunately, I think we were oneof the few hospitals that didn't
run out of like propofol or anypain meds, but other hospitals
were really suffering.
It was like the toilet paper.
You get what you can and you'dlike snatch it all up.
And that's basically what washappening on the drug supply
end.
Kelley Lynch (12:08):
Was it helpful to you all that governor Cuomo came
out with his press conferenceevery day to talk about what was
going on In New York?
Samira Duja (12:18):
Now, I can't speak for all new Yorkers, but for me,
and I want to say most of themanagers that I work with, yes.
People don't know what washappening on the backend of what
Cuomo was presenting oftentimes.
You know, I remember there wasone evening, we had a press
conference from our presidentand this was when he started
(12:39):
mentioning about hydroxychloroquine being, you know, the
drug that's the cure all.
And the next day I spoke with myinfectious disease pharmacist
who said, Samira, I don'tunderstand how this medication
is going to help.
And I said, okay, well then I'llwait and see.
And then by noon, my directorgot eight or nine phone calls
(13:00):
from other physicians and peoplein the hospital asking if
pharmacy carries hydroxychloroquine and then it became
okay, we need to stock up.
And within a matter of hours, Ihad to try to figure out how to
get thousands of tablets ofhydroxy chloroquine into our
hospital when this was alreadyon backorder.
(13:23):
It was already in shortagebecause of it hitting the media
the night before.
And it's not even proven that itworks.
So it's a lot of gray area thatwe're working with.
And our governor went throughthe state board of pharmacy to
contact all of the pharmacies inthe state, letting them know
that no one was allowed todispense hydroxy chloroquine,
(13:45):
unless it was for an FDAapproved indication, such as
lupus and whatnot.
So it helped save the pharmaciesfrom going through that burden
of either running out of thedrug for patients that actually
need it.
And as well as like, I mean atthis point, and we know that it
causes more harm than good, butwe probably saved a lot of lives
(14:06):
doing that as well.
So that was for me, his dailypress conferences were great.
For me coming home, you know, weweren't, we didn't know what the
numbers were throughout thestate cause we're working all
day.
So me coming home and thenwatching it later, I thought it
was uplifting.
It was nice to know that we haveleadership within the state who
was actually really guiding usand taking actual like opinions
(14:29):
from people who were in themidst of it and making these
decisions and thinking ahead,like telling pharmacies not to
actually dispense this unless itwas a message for patients who
actually really need it.
And so I thought he was veryproactive.
I was grateful for that, forthat kind of leadership.
And I think he did a lot ofgood.
I mean, he was ahead of the gamewith opening the FEMA hospital
(14:52):
with Javitz center.
I don't know how other hospitalsare using them.
And I know with my system, wewere transferring out the
healthy patients there.
So COVID patients would stay inthe hospital, but anyone who's
healthy and not COVID, you'regoing over to there so you're
not getting it from us.
And so it was great.
And that's because a lot ofthese hospitals in Queens were a
hundred percent COVID at onepoint.
(15:13):
So we didn't want to keep themhere.
Kelley Lynch (15:16):
What about the white house press briefings?
Samira Duja (15:20):
I think the white house press briefings in all
honesty.
For me, it was a lot more harmthan good in the sense of, you
know, again, they didn't have alot of facts as far as what was
working.
They were trying to grasp atstraws and looking at research
from abroad that wasn't evenclear or had enough data to
(15:42):
begin with, to say, try thismedication or try that.
How do you tell people to trysomething if you're not even
sure if it's going to work yet?
And so it caused a lot morechaos and a lot more, how do I
say it?
Um, panic then actual likehelping people in the end of the
day.
So, I mean, as of right now, theonly thing that's really been
(16:05):
beneficial is just, you know, isthe steroids and the
immunosuppressants and helpingand getting them started on
things like that early on inorder to keep them from getting
into the ICU.
But, you know, I think in thebeginning, people were trying to
find a miracle cure all, and westill haven't found that yet.
To me, the federal governmentwas being irresponsible and I
(16:27):
understand where they werecoming from.
They were trying to give hope topeople that there's an actual
cure for this.
But they didn't have their factsstraight and they, they, we
needed to wait and see what wasgoing to happen.
And it looked like what happenedin China isn't necessarily
what's happening in other partsof the world.
Everyone's kind of seeingsomething a little bit
different.
Kelley Lynch (16:48):
Now, do you still have a lot of COVID patients in
the hospital?
Samira Duja (16:52):
Fortunately, no.
We're probably at our lowestnumbers we've ever seen and it's
really, really, really containedright now.
So it's amazing from that place,because I don't think in the
middle of March or April, wewere seeing the light at the end
of the tunnel.
And so I think right now we'reall just kind of hoping that it
(17:13):
stays at bay and that we're notgonna see a surge coming up like
in the fall everyone'santicipating.
But right now I think it's beena miracle that we've managed to
get the numbers under control.
I think a huge part of it iseveryone's being responsible,
staying home, wearing masks anddoing their part.
So extremely grateful for that.
And you know, we see what'shappening in other States.
(17:34):
So I feel for them because we'vebeen there and hopefully they
can get to the other side ofthis as well.
Kelley Lynch (17:42):
She watch all of this unfold in these other
States in the South and inCalifornia, Texas, what are you
thinking?
Samira Duja (17:50):
One of my best friends lives in Dallas and I
called her yesterday and we hadthis talk and I basically said
to her, I'm like really upsetthat we went through what we
went through, hoping that otherStates would see what we were
going through and hear ourstories and take precautions so
that this doesn't happen tothem.
And it makes me really sad thatpeople feel like they're immune
(18:15):
or that they're above it, orthat they're exempt from things.
Saying that, Oh, that's theirproblem.
You know, it's not our problembecause this is something that's
affecting, not just New York,but affecting the whole world.
And so I think it's a time foreveryone to kind of, you know,
see that inside of that we havea responsibility to actually be
(18:37):
a part of the solution, not be apart of the problem.
I feel like some of those Statesare gonna have a tougher time
than we did getting things undercontrol.
And in New York, it got out ofcontrol because we are so
congested, but at the same time,people come together very
quickly in New York to try to bea part of the solution.
And we see that time and timeagain with every disaster that
(18:58):
we've had.
And maybe that's part of thereason why we do really well
under stress and manage to getto the other side.
But yeah, I feel for these otherStates and I feel for the health
care workers in these otherStates because you know, until
the bigger population takes someresponsibility and take some
control over this, it's notgoing to get better.
(19:27):
Hospital pharmacies tend to bevery secluded from the rest of
the hospital.
And so we're usually located inthe basement, down the hall from
the morgue.
And I think for my entire staff,it started hitting us how severe
this was not even from theworkflow, but when we started
seeing dead body after deadbody, after dead body being
(19:51):
rolled past the pharmacy to goto the morgue or being rolled
past the morgue to go into thecooler trucks.
And that's when I think for alot of my staff, they started
breaking down and crying andthey started emotionally, like
you saw them start to start tobreak.
Um, cause that's when it gotreal.
(20:11):
And I was also coming home to mysister, who's an ICU nurse.
So she was living, breathing itwhen she was at work.
And for her, I remember shewould be the one calling the
shots at home.
She would be like, Samira, weneed to start like literally
quarantining ourselves from ourparents.
And so I would, we would bothcome home, we'd go straight to
(20:31):
our rooms.
There was very littleinteraction with our parents and
they would try because for themit wasn't really real.
Like they see it on the news,but they were like, no, you're,
I'm sure you're fine.
But then with the news happeningwith hearing distant relatives
and family friends who aregetting COVID and not doing
well, it started getting realfor them as well.
(20:53):
And we just basically went towork, came home and then we were
quarantined in our bedrooms.
Um, and then we'd wait for themto go to sleep for us, to like
take our laundry and go to thebasement and do our laundry and
come back just so we don't, youknow, affect them in any way
because that was our biggestfear was not getting sick
ourselves, but are we going tobring this home to them?
(21:13):
Beause my father is 72, mymother's in her sixties.
And so our biggest fear was, wedon't want our jobs ending up,
harming our families in theprocess.
Kelley Lynch (21:24):
Did you ever ask yourself, is it worth it?
Samira Duja (21:27):
I saw a lot of different personalities, a lot
of different mentalities ariseinside of COVID.
So for me it was almost like Iwas given a higher purpose.
Like this is what I did sixyears of pharmacy school for.
This is what I went to residencyfor.
It was to go above and beyondwhat I ever thought was possible
(21:48):
and doing what I could do in mypart in all of this.
That's just how my brain works.
For my sister, it was This jobisn't worth potentially losing
my life for.
And so a lot of nurses andnurses again are on the front
lines and they're at a high riskof contracting this with the
patients that they're takingcare of.
(22:08):
So for her, it was a dailyconversation of Samira, I think
I want to quit.
I don't know if I want to dothis anymore.
Like they're not giving us theproper PPE.
If they can't protect us as itsemployees and how do we protect
our patients and how do weprotect our families?
Like, is this even worth it?
And so she had that conversationover and over and over again.
(22:29):
And I think she still does everytime she has a COVID patient,
like Am I risking myself?
And it's not even about takingcare of the patient as much as
it is having the protection inthe process of taking care of
the patients because PPEs was onsuch shortage masks are in
shortage.
Um, you know, none of the nurseswere getting proper PPE.
(22:50):
PPE is you wear it, you go intothe patient's room, you leave
the patient's room, you throw itout and you put on a new one.
The next time you go into apatient's room.
These nurses are wearing thesame masks for a week at a time.
They're being asked to reusetheir gowns over and over again.
And so that's not what for thepast 50 years, our training has
(23:11):
been from an infection controlstandpoint.
So they really are, no matterhow much the CDC says, you know,
our guidelines have changed yourguidelines can't possibly change
overnight after 50 years of thesame guidelines, you know, and a
lot of nurses contracted it,physicians, nurses in our
hospital contracted COVID, someof them didn't make it.
(23:31):
A lot of them did.
So, you know, that's going to bea conversation moving forward
every time there's a surge, isthis worth it?
Kelley Lynch (23:49):
So all of these things are happening around the
country and we don't haveborders within the country,
right?
I mean, so people can come andpeople frequently come from
Florida where it's booming atthe moment up to New York.
I mean, there's a realconnection there.
So does that give you pause?
Samira Duja (24:11):
This is a time when we get to really be generous and
giving and help our neighborsand really go above and beyond.
And which we've seen a lot ofover the past few months, you
know.
But then you also have peoplewho are constantly worried about
their own privilege or their ownrights.
And this isn't about privilegeor rights.
(24:33):
This is about protecting eachother so we have the best
outcomes at the end of all ofthis.
And I think that's what a lot ofpeople have been missing the
mark on.
And fortunately it's not themajority, but it's enough to
keep this virus going.
This is an opportunity forpeople to kind of take a pause.
(24:57):
And I think for everyone who islike worried about, you know,
rights and privilege and gettingback to normal, there might be a
new normal moving forward andthat's okay.
So embrace it.
And let's figure out how to likeshine inside of that new normal,
and let's figure out a way tothrive inside of that new
normal.
Kelley Lynch (25:17):
So what does the new normal look like for you in
your job?
Samira Duja (25:24):
I think for us, what the new normal has become
is looking at is how we treatinfections in the sense of a lot
of hospitals before COVIDweren't ready or prepared for
(25:44):
airborne infections.
Most hospitals have a handful ofrooms that were, and I'm talking
right now, like operationally,most hospitals only have a
handful of negative pressurerooms with people with airborne
infection.
So for the most part, if you'rethinking of infections like
(26:05):
tuberculosis is what hospitalswere ready for.
If they had a TB positivepatient and they would have a
couple of rooms in the ICU andmaybe a couple of rooms on the
floor.
I think moving forward a lot ofhospitals, if they're
financially able to, are goingto start trying to make most of
their rooms negative pressurerooms in case of another
pandemic.
And I'm thinking like longterm,right?
(26:27):
This is going to be a visionthat most hospitals are going to
try to think of.
I think from a day to day newnormal, we're constantly going
to be monitoring numbers.
Like my first thing everymorning I look at is how many
COVID patients do we have in thehospital?
Has it gone up?
Has it gone down?
Is it at bay?
Looking at how many patients wehave in the hospital total.
(26:50):
And that was always something Ilooked up a nd now I look at it
from a place of.
Are our numbers going up becauseCOVID is going up or are our n
umbers going up just becausesurgeries are up.
Samira Duj (27:03):
I think for my entire staff and most health
care workers, we never had towear masks everywhere in the
hospital.
That wasn't part of our normalunless somebody had an
infection.
Wearing gowns,wasn't a dailynormal unless somebody, again,
had an infection.
(27:24):
But our normal in the hospitalis going to be masks and gowns
and just PPE all around for along time to come until we know
it's really under control orthere's a vaccine.
Meetings in the hospital havechanged.
So for the past three months, wehaven't really had any meetings
since February and now we'rehaving meetings again.
(27:45):
And in our boardroom, everyoneis sitting in every other seat.
The number of people we'reinviting to meetings has gone
down.
So not every doctor that used tocome before are being invited.
Kelley Lynch (27:56):
And what about supplies and supply chains and
your job in particular?
Samira Duj (28:00):
So I feel like supply chain, isn't going to
get, it's gotten better in NewYork.
So most of the drugs that wereon shortage, I'm now able to
get, however, I'm a thousandpercent positive that Texas
distribution centers andwholesalers that are physically
located in Texas and serving theTexas populations in the South
(28:23):
and California and everyone elsewho's getting hit are probably
completely stocked out.
Samira Duja (28:28):
So what's happening is they're taking stock from the
ones that are fully stocked.
They're probably taking New York's supply now and sending
them to other areas in thecountry to help them.
And so supply chain, until weget it under control, is going
to be tough for a while and notnecessarily in New York, but
(28:51):
whoever's getting hit, it'sgoing to be tough.
And then that trickles outward,right?
So they get hit, they startbuying things out and then it
starts trickling outward to allthe other States and nationally.
So that's g oing t o be aproblem.
Until we get things undercontrol, it's g oing t o be
tough to get these medicationsor they're not going to be
readily available.
(29:11):
And the other thing is PPE isgoing to be PPE is so tough to
get right now.
You can get masks.
You can go on Amazon and getsurgical masks, or masks I
should say, but they're notmedical grade.
So it's fine if I wear themgoing out grocery shopping.
But if a nurse is taking care ofa COVID patient, that might not
(29:31):
be good enough.
So this is going to be alongterm.
Kelley Lynch (29:43):
You also mentioned that you work in a sort of
managerial capacity as well.
Do you foresee any changes tothat side of the hospital?
Samira Duja (29:54):
I have a lot of friends and I have family who go
into school and they get theirbachelor's in health
administration and they gettheir master's in health
administration.
And then they start working inhospitals as hospital
administrators and they havezero medical knowledge.
I never really thought twiceabout it and then COVID hit and
(30:16):
it's these non-healthcareprofessionals managing the
hospitals with their MHAs, whichis fine, making decisions for
those of us on the front lines.
And I'm sitting there going, Imean, WTF, it should be h
ealthcare providers who aretaking care of patients, making
some of these decisions.
(30:37):
We have a department calledgeneral stores or central supply
ay every hospital where they aremanaging all the supplies that
are not drug related for thewhole hospital.
So s ealing bags, syringes, youknow, they're the ones managing
getting the PPE in.
Because it's not pharmacy it'sgeneral store supplying it to
(30:57):
the entire hospital.
But when the head of thatdepartment knows very little
about patient care, it's hardfor him to make a decision as
far as,"Oh, I didn't realize whythis department needs masks or I
didn't realize that thisdepartment actually sees
patients to be needing gowns.
Because he's now having toquestion, why do you need gowns?
(31:18):
Why am I supplying these?
Because it's on shortage.
And so that's where I'm like,there needs to be some sort of
medical professional in thatleadership role where they can
sit down with leadership ofother departments to at least
help them make these decisionsbecause they don't have the
medical knowledge to say no toyou directly.
(31:40):
Historically, the reason why wegot administrative personnel to
help manage hospitals is becauseclinicians were not interested.
They wanted to be the providers.
They wanted to be taking care ofpatients.
That's what they're passionateabout.
I'm hoping that there's going tobe a shift in the upcoming years
where more and more cliniciansactually start taking on those
roles.
Kelley Lynch (32:00):
Almost five and a half million Americans have lost
their health insurance afterbeing laid off due to the
pandemic with all of the stressthat this puts on patients and
doctors and hospital systems.
Do you think it might result inmedical professionals being more
(32:21):
willing to consider a morecentralized healthcare system?
Samira Duja (32:28):
I've always been a huge advocate for a nationalized
health care system only becauseI feel like with health
insurance companies, there's anagenda there.
They're making money off, prettymuch you being unhealthy.
And so if there's an agendathere, then are they really
taking care of you?
But we have the highest medicalexpenditures or healthcare
expenditures in the world, butwe don't have the outcomes to
(32:49):
show for it.
And we're seeing that we'reseeing that blatantly right now
with COVID.
I've always been a firm believerthat if there was a centralized
system or governing system thatprovided health insurance for
all, and we didn't have thesedisparities between different
communities, having healthcare,not having healthcare spending
(33:10):
this much or spending that much,that maybe our outcomes would be
better.
And I've heard a lot of peoplesay, well, that means that
you're probably going to getpaid less.
My response to that is great.
I don't mind taking a 20% paycut if that means every single
person that I know has healthinsurance and is able to get
care when they need to get care.
(33:33):
I've had people in my own familysay, Oh, well then you know,
your uncle, who's a physician.
Won't be able to make the sameamount of money.
I was like, well then if moneyis all he cares about, then he
probably shouldn't have become aphysician and then they get
quiet.
So I think people need to take alook at what their own agendas,
(33:56):
because for me, I went intohealthcare for a reason, for a
purpose.
And it was to help people andyes, my salary, yes, I love my
salary and my salary serves me,but at the end of my life, if I
look back and think like, okay,I took that pay cut, but this is
the good that came out of it.
I'm okay with that.
I think more and more people ingeneral are going to be speaking
(34:20):
up around a centralizedhealthcare system.
But I think also more and moredoctors and nurses and et c e
tera, who took care of thesepatients during those times
would be, I'm hoping they speakup and say something and lobby
and whatnot.
We're already seeing a lot ofchange happen within this
country.
It could be because of astressor of everything that was
(34:40):
happening with the passing ofAhmaud Arbery and George Floyd
and et cetera, et cetera.
We're already seeing that changestarting.
At least the ball is starting toroll.
And so I think it could be withthe healthcare system.
Maybe right now, we're still inthe midst of COVID that we don't
see that ball rolling yet, butmaybe in six months or maybe in
(35:01):
a year's time, we will see thathappen if COVID is still around.
And not that I'm wishing it,that it happened, but it might
be that momentum that overcomesthat inertia for us.
Because I think we are seeingcertain things starting to
shift.
Kelley Lynch (35:18):
Are you at all concerned that as you open up
more and I've heard that yourschools are going to be open,
for example, are you at allconcerned that it might set you
back?
Samira Duja (35:33):
I'm terrified.
That's constantly in our minds,as people are getting more
interactive with each other,like what's going to happen.
So far, we're right now, we'rein phase three.
Long Island is in phase four andthings are still looking good.
I don't know what's going tohappen when schools start.
My best friend is a pediatriccardiologist here in Long Island
and she's been seeing so manymore cases of this immunologic
(35:57):
syndrome that happens in kids.
And they're seeing it happenwith these COVID patients and
kids.
And she's like, there's 300times more that they're seeing
it throughout the country, asopposed to before.
And pediatric patients, eventhough they weren't symptomatic
with COVID, they're having thislike immune response now.
And I'm fearful for kids withschools opening up and these
(36:19):
little kids having this responseand then them coming home to
their parents or grandparents.
So we'll see, I'm hoping thenumbers are so low that maybe
that won't happen.
But time will tell, I think likeour new normal is going to be,
how do we stay connected andstay protected?
Kelley Lynch (36:49):
Do you think this experience has had a big impact
on how you think about life andyour priorities?
Samira Duja (36:56):
What are you passionate about?
What do you love?
What do you like?
What is it that you've beenputting off doing for a long
time that needs to happen now?
Because again, I watched so manypeople pass who now no longer
have that opportunity.
And so for me, I had to take,stop and take a look around my
(37:16):
own life and think about whathave I been putting off?
What am I really passionateabout?
What am I not doing that I'vebeen dreaming about doing?
And then start rearranging mylife that way.
Now is the time.
Life is now.
Now's the time to really takethings on, but you haven't taken
on before.
So I've managed to kick my momout of the kitchen for a couple
(37:38):
of nights a week.
And she's been good about that.
She's a great cook, but I thinkher palate always, you know,
used to Bengali cooking ortraditional Bangladeshi cooking.
And so that's where I haveexceeded her because I'll bake
Italian dishes and it tasteslike you go to the restaurant.
And so that's what I've beendoing is cooking and posting new
recipes on Facebook which hasbeen great, because it takes
(38:00):
away from the politics.
At the same time, I knowtherapists right now, their
calendars are packed, um,because people are having to
deal with their own mentalhealth and in these times.
And so that's also something tolike, you know, I think a lot of
people are embracing things thatthey haven't before and I want
(38:22):
to think that the way everyone'sgrowing inside of this is really
amazing.
Kelley Lynch (38:28):
Do you have a vision of the kinds of changes
you would like to see us make?
I think globally, nationally,
Samira Duja (38:36):
Where I would like for us to be in five years from
now is really a sense of acommunity like we've never had
before.
And especially given in themiddle of all of this, we are
also having protests and blacklives matter and that
conversation in the States alsoaround the world.
(38:58):
But I think the other end ofthis, what I would love to see
is for people to get outside ofthemselves and realize we're
part of one communityessentially.
And that's every single personon this planet is a part of
something bigger thanthemselves.
I think if we can get to thatplace just as a community, we
would be thriving so much morecoming out of COVID.
Kelley Lynch (39:20):
Thank you so much, Samira.
Samira Duja (39:21):
Thank you for having me.
Kelley Lynch (39:32):
Hey Cindy, Hey Tanvir how are you guys?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvi (39:35):
Surviving.
Cindy Sealls (39:36):
Doing great.
Kelley Lynch (39:38):
I know that usually I ask you guys what you
think, and then we have adiscussion, but today I've come
prepared with a question.
The thing I found mostinteresting was how these press
conferences reached right intothe hospital and had these very
(40:01):
immediate consequences.
And the contrast between the twodifferent kinds of press
conferences really got methinking about where we are in
this country at this moment.
And I think the thing that weare struggling with as much as
(40:25):
the virus is truth.
So what do you guys think?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (40:35):
It's interesting because if I look
back in my country, for whateverreason from the beginning, we
did not find any clearinformation shared from the
leadership or even the media.
So it actually gave way to thespeculations.
(40:59):
You know, like people wereguessing and people were
floating ideas.
Most of the time that did moreharm than help.
Kelley Lynch (41:12):
That's where all of these conspiracy theories
thrive.
That's where, you know, wealready have a situation where
there's so much mistrust ingovernment from all sides.
Cindy Sealls (41:26):
Just reading an article in scientific American
before the trust in governmentwas over 70% and then Vietnam
happened.
It dropped precipitously to makemaybe above 50, but then
Watergate happened.
(41:47):
So then it drops below 50 and itwent back up again in the
eighties with Reagan, but notmuch only, still just below 50.
And now it's down to 20,
Kelley Lynch (42:01):
20%?
Cindy Sealls (42:01):
20% of the American people trust the
government.
So now you say you have thispandemic, you want to tell
people what to do in thepandemic.
If they don't trust you, why arethey going to do what you say?
Kelley Lynch (42:23):
Well, and isn't it that we've also had kind of a
systemic, I think, particularlycoming from the conservative
side, there's been kind of thissystemic attack.
Cindy Sealls (42:34):
Absolutely on.
Then they bring that up in thearticle and his first inaugural
speech, Ronald Reagan said inthis present crisis, government
is not the solution to ourproblem.
Government is the problem.
(42:54):
His other famous quote aboutthat is the nine most terrifying
words in the English languageare I'm from the government and
I'm here to help.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
They've spent the last 40 years hammering that
message home.
So what do you think about that?
Cindy Sealls (43:17):
I think that the chickens come home to roost.
I mean, how can you say don'ttrust me, you don't trust me.
Don't trust me.
Don't trust me.
Okay.
Wait a minute on this one,though, you have to trust me.
Kelley Lynch (43:29):
That's the boy who cried Wolf.
Cndy Sealls (43:31):
The boy who cried Wolf.
Say you're in graduate school,you're taking a class and the
professor gets up and says,listen, this school is a piece
of crap.
They don't know what they'redoing.
Don't trust them.
Okay.
So now pull out your books.
We're going to go over thisstuff.
And the students are going.
(43:52):
You just told us that you don'tknow what you're talking about.
So why should we believe whatyou're now going to tell us or
try to teach us?
Or when your behavior encouragesdistrust like the police, then
it's hard to get that trustback.
It's hard to make people trustyou again.
(44:15):
The other thing in that articlewas about social distrust, not
just government, 70% ofAmericans don't believe that
other Americans have their bestinterests at heart.
I think, and I haven't done anyresearch, but think it might be
because we have demonized theother side.
(44:37):
So anybody who doesn't agreewith us is bad.
Kelley Lynch (44:42):
Whichever side you're on.
Cndy Sealls (44:43):
whichever side, you're on.
Kelley Lynch (44:46):
One of the other places where there's a lot of
questions is around the data andin this country, or shall we say
in the Western world, we haveall sorts of data being
systematically collected andstill we can't agree, but we do
(45:12):
have a lot of data.
And then when you think aboutdeveloping countries like
Bangladesh, data is really hardto come by on a lot of things.
I mean, for education, forhealth, there's just a real lack
of data.
(45:33):
I was reading the GreatInfluenza book again.
He was saying that they believethat probably 10% of the
population of developingcountries died during the 1918
flu.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (45:48):
I'm going to ask you a question.
Do both of you know that 3million people died in a
man-made famine in 1943 inBengal?
Cndy Sealls (46:02):
Did not know that.
Kelley Lynch (46:04):
I have known that doesn't mean that I remembered
it.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (46:10):
Yeah, that's my point is information
depends on who is sharing it,who is collecting it, who is
writing it.
So when you say that 10% of thepopulation of the developing
countries died in 1918 Spanishflu that we are talking about
(46:37):
the colonial period then.
So if the number would depend onthe colonial rulers.
If that went against them, youare looking at a reduced number
or no number at all.
Because in colonial rule, thecolonies were moneymaking
(47:01):
machine.
People did not matter.
You could get rid of an entirepopulation or an entire area of
people just because they wereinconvenient for extracting your
resources.
So, so when you talk aboutnumbers in 1918, I don't have
(47:25):
any faith in those numbers.
Kelley Lynch (47:28):
That's a great point.
Cndy Sealls (47:28):
That is, that is interesting.
Isn't it?
That they wouldn't report it.
It's kind of like WoodrowWilson, you know, but they did
not say anything about all thosepeople who were dying because
they didn't want people topanic.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:48):
Not panic, actually, it's people to
react.
Cndy Sealls (47:54):
Yeah.
React to what's going on.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:57):
Look at the Vietnam war.
You know what happened when thenumber skinny people started
reacting.
So, this whole idea of controlthe numbers of control, the
information source, even backthen in 1918, that was even more
in play because now we have amore open air kind of situation
(48:19):
where there are so many channelsof information sharing that even
if the government tried, or evenif a uthorities t ried, they
could not stop all the channels.
But back in 1918, there w ereonly a few channels and they w
ere under a uthorities control.
(48:39):
So whatever number we have fromthose days, those are just
numbers.
Kelley Lynch (48:48):
Today we have more numbers than we know what to do
with, but still, it seems likenobody can agree on what's true
and what's not true.
Facts.
Cndy Sealls (48:59):
There are facts and there are alternate facts,
right?
Kelley Lynch (49:03):
And honestly, people don't even know which is
which.
Cndy Sealls (49:06):
Yeah, because, well, wait a minute.
Which is which, becausesupposedly facts are the facts.
You know, the, what is thedefinition of a fact?
Let's see a fact, a thing thatis known or proved to be true.
Kelley Lynch (49:28):
That is why I got out of philosophy.
It was just too much shiftingsand underneath my feet.
Cndy Sealls (49:35):
That's what we have Kelly.
There's too much shifting sandin the world today where we
don't, none of us really knowswhat is true.
And we can't even finddefinitive corroborating
evidence.
Think about it.
(49:55):
Because now you can go onlineand find whatever quote, unquote
fact you want to find.
Kelley Lynch (50:06):
So I've thought about maybe I thought that maybe
the best thing is to just go tonews sources that I feel like I
can trust.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (50:15):
Well, don't get your hopes high.
Yeah, because these are owned bycorporates who actually have
their own agenda.
The way they edit news, theydon't lie, but you and I both
(50:36):
know what we perceive as factcan be manipulated in such a
way, just by editing that itcould give completely a
different meaning than what itlooks like.
It's like the famous example, aglass half-full half-empty.
It's the same thing nobody'slying.
(50:56):
But by saying that the glass ishalf-empty, it's a negative
connotation.
And by saying, laugh is a glassis half-full.
It's a positive connotation.
So both the parties are givingthe exact fact, but the way it's
presented that changes the wholeidea.
Kelley Lynch (51:18):
The fact that there are no facts or the fact
that there are facts and wecan't agree on them actually has
a really big impact on what weunderstand to be true and what
we can all agree to do as aresult of that.
Cndy Sealls (51:34):
Right.
That's right.
So I think that's why peoplereally liked listening to Cuomo.
Because it seemed that he wasbeing willing to be open and
honest about what was going on,what people needed to do, what
(51:54):
people needed to know.
He didn't seem not to sugar coatanything.
Um, and I think that that helpedpeople in New York and that area
feel confident that stateadministration was doing all
that they could to try to helpthem.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (52:17):
You feel confident of, you know, in the
government or authoritiesdecisions.
Like when they say stay home, ifyou know how many people are
actually dying or being affectedbecause of your actions, you
become more responsible.
You act more, much moreresponsibly when you have
(52:40):
authentic information.
Kelley Lynch (52:42):
That's a really great point.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (52:45):
You have to prioritize human life over
any kind of venture, any kind ofprofit, any kind of politics,
unless you do that 138,000people.
It's just a number.
Kelley Lynch (53:06):
I'm feeling a bit bad because I was going to have
this thing up on Wednesday.
Like I normally do and then Ifell down a rabbit hole.
I just couldn't figure out whatthe truth was.
And then I got that email todaythat was another untruth.
And then my computer getshacked.
(53:28):
So, that didn't help.
All I know was I spent a lot oftime dealing with somebody
else's untruth.
And some people listening to usare probably thinking they
already went down some sort of arabbit hole because maybe their
truth doesn't fit with ourtruth.
Cndy Sealls (53:47):
Maybe.
We're sorry that we took youdown into the rabbit hole.
Uh, and we hope you can get out,but we gotta go.
Bye!,
Kelley Lynch (53:57):
Yeah.
Hey, don't forget.
Subscribe, review, follow us onInstagram.
Although we don't even know ifwe're going to get a picture
this week, so take care.
Cndy Sealls (54:11):
and we'll throw you a rope so you can get out of the
rabbit hole and come and crawlback into another one with us
the next time.
Kelley Lynch & Cindy Seall (54:18):
Bye.
Bye.
Man, I just get so confused by this whole thing of
what is the even truth anymore.
What is what's real?
What's not?
It kinda makes you crazy.
I mean, you've been seeing allthis stuff that I've been trying
(00:23):
to figure out from other partsof my family who believe things
that are so entirely differentthan what I believe.
I don't want to be somebodywho's like just dismissing it
out of hand.
And yet, it makes me kind ofcrazy.
(00:43):
It eats up all of my mentalspace trying to figure out well,
is this true?
Is there something you know,that I can't see?
I don't even know what tobelieve sometimes.
Cindy Sealls (00:57):
Exactly.
We're in an ambiguous universewhere you don't really know what
is going on anywhere.
Whether it's the virus, whetherit's racism or not, the economy
is doing well or not, a mask isgood, or maybe it's not.
(01:21):
You go online, you can find allkinds of articles for and
against.
And sometimes even the dataaround this virus is
inconsistent.
For instance, I'm just going togive you one instance.
I'm always checking the COVIDcases and deaths.
(01:42):
And I swear to God, Kelley, Idon't think one of those things
matches.
Every one I go to has differentnumbers.
I'm not joking.
Okay, if I already have in mymind that this is fishy, this
whole thing.
(02:02):
And then I go online and I'mgoing to supposedly reputable
websites, you know.
I'm not going to Joe's COVIDdata.com.
I'm going to the CDC and JohnHopkins and it's all different.
Now, I don't know if it'sbecause their reporting is at
(02:24):
the times that they have toreport the numbers is different.
I don't know.
And I almost feel like saying tothem, report them all at the
same time.
So yeah.
You know, I can understandpeople being confused.
Kelley Lynch (02:39):
But I I think we were headed down this rabbit
hole even before.
Cindy Sealls (02:46):
And I think a little bit, if there's a little
bit of history there where therewas some kind of, you know,
incident that looks a littlefishy, I think that, too, plays
into people's like they're intotheir mind of, Hmm, that seems
(03:11):
strange.
But also too, I was justthinking, and you have said this
before.
I think the internetcorroborates a lot of our
craziness.
I remember when I used to go tothe barbershop to get my hair
cut.
It was mostly guys and theywould be in there and they would
just be talking about thecraziest stuff.
(03:35):
Yeah.
This is going on.
And you know, this is going tohappen and, and that's going to
happen.
And then I found out that's kindof part of the black culture to
have these suspicions about allkinds of stuff.
Before you can have some crazytalk and you had to go to the
barbershop to get people tocorroborate your crazy talk.
(03:59):
Well, maybe you were on thecorner or something.
And now all of us who have thiscrazy talk in our head can
Google, you know, now you're notthinking it's true, but you're
like, bam.
Look at YouTube videos galore.
The earth is flat.
They're lying to you.
(04:20):
So you go look at all of this,look at all of this evidence.
I feel like I'm living at abarbershop 24/7.
Before you know, I was in therelike 45 minutes.
I was out of there and I wouldbe laughing to myself.
Oh my God, those people a recrazy in here.
But n ow I'm living in abarbershop.
Everything is a f riggingconspiracy theory.
Kelley Lynch (04:51):
Hi, I'm Kelley Lynch.
Welcome to a new normal apodcast about how we're adapting
to life during the pandemic andwhere we go from here, I guess
today is Samira Duja.
Samira is a pharmacist who worksin a New York city hospital.
As cases continue to surge inthe U S and around the world.
(05:12):
I talked with Samira about theCovid spike in New York.
She witnessed most of the crisisfrom her basement office down
the hall from the morgue behindher computer screen, as she
tried to keep the medicineflowing.
Samira, welcome to the podcast.
Samira Duja (05:28):
Thank you for having me.
Kelley Lynch (05:30):
Can you tell us about your job?
Tell us what you do.
Samira Duja (05:35):
Sure.
I've been a pharmacist for about15 years now.
More specifically, I am amanager in a hospital in Queens,
and I pretty much manageoperations, our drug supply for
the hospital and managing, likegetting in medications.
And also just making sure thenursing units are fully stocked.
(06:01):
So really like full control ofdrug, supply management, but
also overseeing operations andpersonnel within that
department.
Kelley Lynch (06:08):
Can you give us a timeline for how everything
played out in your hospital,around the COVID crisis?
Samira Duja (06:16):
It started in January, you know, on a
departmental level, we had thesedaily noon huddles where all of
like all seven, eight managersgets together and talks about
any issues, any problems, anyconcerns that are going on
within the inside of thehospital, but also inside of our
department.
And back in January, when it hitthe news about COVID in China,
(06:41):
conversations obviously startedhappening as far as this is
going to affect us down the lineand just keeping an eye on the
news.
From my perspective asking, isthere any medications that treat
this, do I need to startstocking up?
And my infectious diseasepharmacist basically saying
Samira coronavirus, isn'tsomething that's ever been
(07:04):
managed by medication.
There's no treatment for it.
It's really just supportivecare.
So there's really nothing youcan do right now.
And me saying, okay, so this wasJanuary.
In February, we started havingrandom cases in the States.
And one Monday morning Iremember coming into work and
(07:25):
there's news vans all in frontof the hospital.
And I wasn't sure what happened,got into the department.
And everyone saying they had asuspected coronavirus patient
come through and then same thingwith a neighboring hospital in
Queens.
And so that's where the newsmedia was coming from.
So now it's like, okay, this isreal, right?
(07:46):
This is starting to feel realfor us.
Again, anything we can do toprepare, nobody really knows.
Like nobody really knows how toprepare for this.
And as far from a medicationstandpoint, they hadn't really
figured out any medications fromwhat we were hearing that treat
this.
So again, nothing I can do on myend.
And then a couple of weekslater, mid March now a week
(08:10):
before it hit us, we had casescome through at our sister
hospital located in Queens.
And what ended up happening wasa patient almost seen in the
clinic was sent to the ER, theyeven got admitted and then ended
up being positive for COVID.
And now the whole hospital'sgoing, Oh my God, this patient
just interacted with how manyemployees.
(08:33):
And again, now it's reallystarting to be real.
And about three or four dayslater, we got our first patient.
And so, you know, again, nothingI can really do.
I was stocking up on certainantibiotics for pneumonia
because testing wasn't up andrunning, right?
So we didn't know if we weregoing to be able to get testing,
to test for this for, in ourpatients.
(08:54):
So I to stock up on pneumoniameds, because one way of trying
to rule it out is let's rule outpneumonia.
So we're going to treat them forpneumonia.
If they're not getting betterwith the antibiotics for
pneumonia, then chances are,they have COVID is how they were
starting to rule this out.
And so pneumonia drugscompletely out of stock now at
(09:16):
all my wholesalers because thisis exactly what all the other
hospitals are doing.
So for me, life just got hard,not being able to get these
medications in and I'm placingback order after back order,
after back order with mywholesaler.
And so now COVID actually in ourhospital.
So these patients are now, ournumbers are starting to go up.
(09:38):
These patients are starting toget worse and ending up in the
ICU.
And you know, I remember one ofthe first things was respiratory
calling to say, we need to makesure we're stocked up on
albuterol inhalers.
So now I'm trying to stock up oninhalers.
I'm trying to stock up on IVantibiotics and then patients
(09:59):
are ending up in the ICU.
And so now ICU medications,where I was buying, you know
what I would typically buying inabout a month for ICU
medications, I'm flying throughin a matter of a day.
For example, everyone knowspropofol was the Michael Jackson
drug.
Propofol is a sedative.
(10:20):
It basically keeps patientssedated while they're intubated
in the ICU.
And so, you know, everybody whoremembers this medication knows
that it was the medicationMichael Jackson was using to
help him sleep and whichessentially killed him.
But for patients who wereintubated, they're needing to be
extremely sedated.
(10:41):
So they're not thrashing aboutwith a tube down their throat.
And so the amount of propofol Iwould buy in a month, I was
going through in a day, maybehours.
And trying to keep up with thesupply of propofol of other
sedatives of pain meds that areused in the ICU because all of
these patients need pain meds tobe intubated, too because it's
(11:05):
not comfortable having a tubedown your throat.
So I think every hospital isscrambling trying to get drugs.
And what ends up happening isevery single hospital is now
trying to stock up, completelywiping out the drug supply in
our wholesalers.
And then it's kinda likeeveryone's trying to figure out
how to get more drugs and how dowe keep our patients sedated?
(11:26):
And are we going to run out ofdrugs?
So for about a month, maybe twomonths, I'm waking up at 1:00
AM, 4:00 AM to see, Did they getany shipments in on the
overnight?
Did something get released onthe overnight while everybody
else was sleeping?
Can I snatch something up?
Basically what I live, breathedand ate was trying to get drugs
into the hospital.
(11:47):
Fortunately, I think we were oneof the few hospitals that didn't
run out of like propofol or anypain meds, but other hospitals
were really suffering.
It was like the toilet paper.
You get what you can and you'dlike snatch it all up.
And that's basically what washappening on the drug supply
end.
Kelley Lynch (12:08):
Was it helpful to you all that governor Cuomo came
out with his press conferenceevery day to talk about what was
going on In New York?
Samira Duja (12:18):
Now, I can't speak for all new Yorkers, but for me,
and I want to say most of themanagers that I work with, yes.
People don't know what washappening on the backend of what
Cuomo was presenting oftentimes.
You know, I remember there wasone evening, we had a press
conference from our presidentand this was when he started
(12:39):
mentioning about hydroxychloroquine being, you know, the
drug that's the cure all.
And the next day I spoke with myinfectious disease pharmacist
who said, Samira, I don'tunderstand how this medication
is going to help.
And I said, okay, well then I'llwait and see.
And then by noon, my directorgot eight or nine phone calls
(13:00):
from other physicians and peoplein the hospital asking if
pharmacy carries hydroxychloroquine and then it became
okay, we need to stock up.
And within a matter of hours, Ihad to try to figure out how to
get thousands of tablets ofhydroxy chloroquine into our
hospital when this was alreadyon backorder.
(13:23):
It was already in shortagebecause of it hitting the media
the night before.
And it's not even proven that itworks.
So it's a lot of gray area thatwe're working with.
And our governor went throughthe state board of pharmacy to
contact all of the pharmacies inthe state, letting them know
that no one was allowed todispense hydroxy chloroquine,
(13:45):
unless it was for an FDAapproved indication, such as
lupus and whatnot.
So it helped save the pharmaciesfrom going through that burden
of either running out of thedrug for patients that actually
need it.
And as well as like, I mean atthis point, and we know that it
causes more harm than good, butwe probably saved a lot of lives
(14:06):
doing that as well.
So that was for me, his dailypress conferences were great.
For me coming home, you know, weweren't, we didn't know what the
numbers were throughout thestate cause we're working all
day.
So me coming home and thenwatching it later, I thought it
was uplifting.
It was nice to know that we haveleadership within the state who
was actually really guiding usand taking actual like opinions
(14:29):
from people who were in themidst of it and making these
decisions and thinking ahead,like telling pharmacies not to
actually dispense this unless itwas a message for patients who
actually really need it.
And so I thought he was veryproactive.
I was grateful for that, forthat kind of leadership.
And I think he did a lot ofgood.
I mean, he was ahead of the gamewith opening the FEMA hospital
(14:52):
with Javitz center.
I don't know how other hospitalsare using them.
And I know with my system, wewere transferring out the
healthy patients there.
So COVID patients would stay inthe hospital, but anyone who's
healthy and not COVID, you'regoing over to there so you're
not getting it from us.
And so it was great.
And that's because a lot ofthese hospitals in Queens were a
hundred percent COVID at onepoint.
(15:13):
So we didn't want to keep themhere.
Kelley Lynch (15:16):
What about the white house press briefings?
Samira Duja (15:20):
I think the white house press briefings in all
honesty.
For me, it was a lot more harmthan good in the sense of, you
know, again, they didn't have alot of facts as far as what was
working.
They were trying to grasp atstraws and looking at research
from abroad that wasn't evenclear or had enough data to
(15:42):
begin with, to say, try thismedication or try that.
How do you tell people to trysomething if you're not even
sure if it's going to work yet?
And so it caused a lot morechaos and a lot more, how do I
say it?
Um, panic then actual likehelping people in the end of the
day.
So, I mean, as of right now, theonly thing that's really been
(16:05):
beneficial is just, you know, isthe steroids and the
immunosuppressants and helpingand getting them started on
things like that early on inorder to keep them from getting
into the ICU.
But, you know, I think in thebeginning, people were trying to
find a miracle cure all, and westill haven't found that yet.
To me, the federal governmentwas being irresponsible and I
(16:27):
understand where they werecoming from.
They were trying to give hope topeople that there's an actual
cure for this.
But they didn't have their factsstraight and they, they, we
needed to wait and see what wasgoing to happen.
And it looked like what happenedin China isn't necessarily
what's happening in other partsof the world.
Everyone's kind of seeingsomething a little bit
different.
Kelley Lynch (16:48):
Now, do you still have a lot of COVID patients in
the hospital?
Samira Duja (16:52):
Fortunately, no.
We're probably at our lowestnumbers we've ever seen and it's
really, really, really containedright now.
So it's amazing from that place,because I don't think in the
middle of March or April, wewere seeing the light at the end
of the tunnel.
And so I think right now we'reall just kind of hoping that it
(17:13):
stays at bay and that we're notgonna see a surge coming up like
in the fall everyone'santicipating.
But right now I think it's beena miracle that we've managed to
get the numbers under control.
I think a huge part of it iseveryone's being responsible,
staying home, wearing masks anddoing their part.
So extremely grateful for that.
And you know, we see what'shappening in other States.
(17:34):
So I feel for them because we'vebeen there and hopefully they
can get to the other side ofthis as well.
Kelley Lynch (17:42):
She watch all of this unfold in these other
States in the South and inCalifornia, Texas, what are you
thinking?
Samira Duja (17:50):
One of my best friends lives in Dallas and I
called her yesterday and we hadthis talk and I basically said
to her, I'm like really upsetthat we went through what we
went through, hoping that otherStates would see what we were
going through and hear ourstories and take precautions so
that this doesn't happen tothem.
And it makes me really sad thatpeople feel like they're immune
(18:15):
or that they're above it, orthat they're exempt from things.
Saying that, Oh, that's theirproblem.
You know, it's not our problembecause this is something that's
affecting, not just New York,but affecting the whole world.
And so I think it's a time foreveryone to kind of, you know,
see that inside of that we havea responsibility to actually be
(18:37):
a part of the solution, not be apart of the problem.
I feel like some of those Statesare gonna have a tougher time
than we did getting things undercontrol.
And in New York, it got out ofcontrol because we are so
congested, but at the same time,people come together very
quickly in New York to try to bea part of the solution.
And we see that time and timeagain with every disaster that
(18:58):
we've had.
And maybe that's part of thereason why we do really well
under stress and manage to getto the other side.
But yeah, I feel for these otherStates and I feel for the health
care workers in these otherStates because you know, until
the bigger population takes someresponsibility and take some
control over this, it's notgoing to get better.
(19:27):
Hospital pharmacies tend to bevery secluded from the rest of
the hospital.
And so we're usually located inthe basement, down the hall from
the morgue.
And I think for my entire staff,it started hitting us how severe
this was not even from theworkflow, but when we started
seeing dead body after deadbody, after dead body being
(19:51):
rolled past the pharmacy to goto the morgue or being rolled
past the morgue to go into thecooler trucks.
And that's when I think for alot of my staff, they started
breaking down and crying andthey started emotionally, like
you saw them start to start tobreak.
Um, cause that's when it gotreal.
(20:11):
And I was also coming home to mysister, who's an ICU nurse.
So she was living, breathing itwhen she was at work.
And for her, I remember shewould be the one calling the
shots at home.
She would be like, Samira, weneed to start like literally
quarantining ourselves from ourparents.
And so I would, we would bothcome home, we'd go straight to
(20:31):
our rooms.
There was very littleinteraction with our parents and
they would try because for themit wasn't really real.
Like they see it on the news,but they were like, no, you're,
I'm sure you're fine.
But then with the news happeningwith hearing distant relatives
and family friends who aregetting COVID and not doing
well, it started getting realfor them as well.
(20:53):
And we just basically went towork, came home and then we were
quarantined in our bedrooms.
Um, and then we'd wait for themto go to sleep for us, to like
take our laundry and go to thebasement and do our laundry and
come back just so we don't, youknow, affect them in any way
because that was our biggestfear was not getting sick
ourselves, but are we going tobring this home to them?
(21:13):
Beause my father is 72, mymother's in her sixties.
And so our biggest fear was, wedon't want our jobs ending up,
harming our families in theprocess.
Kelley Lynch (21:24):
Did you ever ask yourself, is it worth it?
Samira Duja (21:27):
I saw a lot of different personalities, a lot
of different mentalities ariseinside of COVID.
So for me it was almost like Iwas given a higher purpose.
Like this is what I did sixyears of pharmacy school for.
This is what I went to residencyfor.
It was to go above and beyondwhat I ever thought was possible
(21:48):
and doing what I could do in mypart in all of this.
That's just how my brain works.
For my sister, it was This jobisn't worth potentially losing
my life for.
And so a lot of nurses andnurses again are on the front
lines and they're at a high riskof contracting this with the
patients that they're takingcare of.
(22:08):
So for her, it was a dailyconversation of Samira, I think
I want to quit.
I don't know if I want to dothis anymore.
Like they're not giving us theproper PPE.
If they can't protect us as itsemployees and how do we protect
our patients and how do weprotect our families?
Like, is this even worth it?
And so she had that conversationover and over and over again.
(22:29):
And I think she still does everytime she has a COVID patient,
like Am I risking myself?
And it's not even about takingcare of the patient as much as
it is having the protection inthe process of taking care of
the patients because PPEs was onsuch shortage masks are in
shortage.
Um, you know, none of the nurseswere getting proper PPE.
(22:50):
PPE is you wear it, you go intothe patient's room, you leave
the patient's room, you throw itout and you put on a new one.
The next time you go into apatient's room.
These nurses are wearing thesame masks for a week at a time.
They're being asked to reusetheir gowns over and over again.
And so that's not what for thepast 50 years, our training has
(23:11):
been from an infection controlstandpoint.
So they really are, no matterhow much the CDC says, you know,
our guidelines have changed yourguidelines can't possibly change
overnight after 50 years of thesame guidelines, you know, and a
lot of nurses contracted it,physicians, nurses in our
hospital contracted COVID, someof them didn't make it.
(23:31):
A lot of them did.
So, you know, that's going to bea conversation moving forward
every time there's a surge, isthis worth it?
Kelley Lynch (23:49):
So all of these things are happening around the
country and we don't haveborders within the country,
right?
I mean, so people can come andpeople frequently come from
Florida where it's booming atthe moment up to New York.
I mean, there's a realconnection there.
So does that give you pause?
Samira Duja (24:11):
This is a time when we get to really be generous and
giving and help our neighborsand really go above and beyond.
And which we've seen a lot ofover the past few months, you
know.
But then you also have peoplewho are constantly worried about
their own privilege or their ownrights.
And this isn't about privilegeor rights.
(24:33):
This is about protecting eachother so we have the best
outcomes at the end of all ofthis.
And I think that's what a lot ofpeople have been missing the
mark on.
And fortunately it's not themajority, but it's enough to
keep this virus going.
This is an opportunity forpeople to kind of take a pause.
(24:57):
And I think for everyone who islike worried about, you know,
rights and privilege and gettingback to normal, there might be a
new normal moving forward andthat's okay.
So embrace it.
And let's figure out how to likeshine inside of that new normal,
and let's figure out a way tothrive inside of that new
normal.
Kelley Lynch (25:17):
So what does the new normal look like for you in
your job?
Samira Duja (25:24):
I think for us, what the new normal has become
is looking at is how we treatinfections in the sense of a lot
of hospitals before COVIDweren't ready or prepared for
(25:44):
airborne infections.
Most hospitals have a handful ofrooms that were, and I'm talking
right now, like operationally,most hospitals only have a
handful of negative pressurerooms with people with airborne
infection.
So for the most part, if you'rethinking of infections like
(26:05):
tuberculosis is what hospitalswere ready for.
If they had a TB positivepatient and they would have a
couple of rooms in the ICU andmaybe a couple of rooms on the
floor.
I think moving forward a lot ofhospitals, if they're
financially able to, are goingto start trying to make most of
their rooms negative pressurerooms in case of another
pandemic.
And I'm thinking like longterm,right?
(26:27):
This is going to be a visionthat most hospitals are going to
try to think of.
I think from a day to day newnormal, we're constantly going
to be monitoring numbers.
Like my first thing everymorning I look at is how many
COVID patients do we have in thehospital?
Has it gone up?
Has it gone down?
Is it at bay?
Looking at how many patients wehave in the hospital total.
(26:50):
And that was always something Ilooked up a nd now I look at it
from a place of.
Are our numbers going up becauseCOVID is going up or are our n
umbers going up just becausesurgeries are up.
Samira Duj (27:03):
I think for my entire staff and most health
care workers, we never had towear masks everywhere in the
hospital.
That wasn't part of our normalunless somebody had an
infection.
Wearing gowns,wasn't a dailynormal unless somebody, again,
had an infection.
(27:24):
But our normal in the hospitalis going to be masks and gowns
and just PPE all around for along time to come until we know
it's really under control orthere's a vaccine.
Meetings in the hospital havechanged.
So for the past three months, wehaven't really had any meetings
since February and now we'rehaving meetings again.
(27:45):
And in our boardroom, everyoneis sitting in every other seat.
The number of people we'reinviting to meetings has gone
down.
So not every doctor that used tocome before are being invited.
Kelley Lynch (27:56):
And what about supplies and supply chains and
your job in particular?
Samira Duj (28:00):
So I feel like supply chain, isn't going to
get, it's gotten better in NewYork.
So most of the drugs that wereon shortage, I'm now able to
get, however, I'm a thousandpercent positive that Texas
distribution centers andwholesalers that are physically
located in Texas and serving theTexas populations in the South
(28:23):
and California and everyone elsewho's getting hit are probably
completely stocked out.
Samira Duja (28:28):
So what's happening is they're taking stock from the
ones that are fully stocked.
They're probably taking New York's supply now and sending
them to other areas in thecountry to help them.
And so supply chain, until weget it under control, is going
to be tough for a while and notnecessarily in New York, but
(28:51):
whoever's getting hit, it'sgoing to be tough.
And then that trickles outward,right?
So they get hit, they startbuying things out and then it
starts trickling outward to allthe other States and nationally.
So that's g oing t o be aproblem.
Until we get things undercontrol, it's g oing t o be
tough to get these medicationsor they're not going to be
readily available.
(29:11):
And the other thing is PPE isgoing to be PPE is so tough to
get right now.
You can get masks.
You can go on Amazon and getsurgical masks, or masks I
should say, but they're notmedical grade.
So it's fine if I wear themgoing out grocery shopping.
But if a nurse is taking care ofa COVID patient, that might not
(29:31):
be good enough.
So this is going to be alongterm.
Kelley Lynch (29:43):
You also mentioned that you work in a sort of
managerial capacity as well.
Do you foresee any changes tothat side of the hospital?
Samira Duja (29:54):
I have a lot of friends and I have family who go
into school and they get theirbachelor's in health
administration and they gettheir master's in health
administration.
And then they start working inhospitals as hospital
administrators and they havezero medical knowledge.
I never really thought twiceabout it and then COVID hit and
(30:16):
it's these non-healthcareprofessionals managing the
hospitals with their MHAs, whichis fine, making decisions for
those of us on the front lines.
And I'm sitting there going, Imean, WTF, it should be h
ealthcare providers who aretaking care of patients, making
some of these decisions.
(30:37):
We have a department calledgeneral stores or central supply
ay every hospital where they aremanaging all the supplies that
are not drug related for thewhole hospital.
So s ealing bags, syringes, youknow, they're the ones managing
getting the PPE in.
Because it's not pharmacy it'sgeneral store supplying it to
(30:57):
the entire hospital.
But when the head of thatdepartment knows very little
about patient care, it's hardfor him to make a decision as
far as,"Oh, I didn't realize whythis department needs masks or I
didn't realize that thisdepartment actually sees
patients to be needing gowns.
Because he's now having toquestion, why do you need gowns?
(31:18):
Why am I supplying these?
Because it's on shortage.
And so that's where I'm like,there needs to be some sort of
medical professional in thatleadership role where they can
sit down with leadership ofother departments to at least
help them make these decisionsbecause they don't have the
medical knowledge to say no toyou directly.
(31:40):
Historically, the reason why wegot administrative personnel to
help manage hospitals is becauseclinicians were not interested.
They wanted to be the providers.
They wanted to be taking care ofpatients.
That's what they're passionateabout.
I'm hoping that there's going tobe a shift in the upcoming years
where more and more cliniciansactually start taking on those
roles.
Kelley Lynch (32:00):
Almost five and a half million Americans have lost
their health insurance afterbeing laid off due to the
pandemic with all of the stressthat this puts on patients and
doctors and hospital systems.
Do you think it might result inmedical professionals being more
(32:21):
willing to consider a morecentralized healthcare system?
Samira Duja (32:28):
I've always been a huge advocate for a nationalized
health care system only becauseI feel like with health
insurance companies, there's anagenda there.
They're making money off, prettymuch you being unhealthy.
And so if there's an agendathere, then are they really
taking care of you?
But we have the highest medicalexpenditures or healthcare
expenditures in the world, butwe don't have the outcomes to
(32:49):
show for it.
And we're seeing that we'reseeing that blatantly right now
with COVID.
I've always been a firm believerthat if there was a centralized
system or governing system thatprovided health insurance for
all, and we didn't have thesedisparities between different
communities, having healthcare,not having healthcare spending
(33:10):
this much or spending that much,that maybe our outcomes would be
better.
And I've heard a lot of peoplesay, well, that means that
you're probably going to getpaid less.
My response to that is great.
I don't mind taking a 20% paycut if that means every single
person that I know has healthinsurance and is able to get
care when they need to get care.
(33:33):
I've had people in my own familysay, Oh, well then you know,
your uncle, who's a physician.
Won't be able to make the sameamount of money.
I was like, well then if moneyis all he cares about, then he
probably shouldn't have become aphysician and then they get
quiet.
So I think people need to take alook at what their own agendas,
(33:56):
because for me, I went intohealthcare for a reason, for a
purpose.
And it was to help people andyes, my salary, yes, I love my
salary and my salary serves me,but at the end of my life, if I
look back and think like, okay,I took that pay cut, but this is
the good that came out of it.
I'm okay with that.
I think more and more people ingeneral are going to be speaking
(34:20):
up around a centralizedhealthcare system.
But I think also more and moredoctors and nurses and et c e
tera, who took care of thesepatients during those times
would be, I'm hoping they speakup and say something and lobby
and whatnot.
We're already seeing a lot ofchange happen within this
country.
It could be because of astressor of everything that was
(34:40):
happening with the passing ofAhmaud Arbery and George Floyd
and et cetera, et cetera.
We're already seeing that changestarting.
At least the ball is starting toroll.
And so I think it could be withthe healthcare system.
Maybe right now, we're still inthe midst of COVID that we don't
see that ball rolling yet, butmaybe in six months or maybe in
(35:01):
a year's time, we will see thathappen if COVID is still around.
And not that I'm wishing it,that it happened, but it might
be that momentum that overcomesthat inertia for us.
Because I think we are seeingcertain things starting to
shift.
Kelley Lynch (35:18):
Are you at all concerned that as you open up
more and I've heard that yourschools are going to be open,
for example, are you at allconcerned that it might set you
back?
Samira Duja (35:33):
I'm terrified.
That's constantly in our minds,as people are getting more
interactive with each other,like what's going to happen.
So far, we're right now, we'rein phase three.
Long Island is in phase four andthings are still looking good.
I don't know what's going tohappen when schools start.
My best friend is a pediatriccardiologist here in Long Island
and she's been seeing so manymore cases of this immunologic
(35:57):
syndrome that happens in kids.
And they're seeing it happenwith these COVID patients and
kids.
And she's like, there's 300times more that they're seeing
it throughout the country, asopposed to before.
And pediatric patients, eventhough they weren't symptomatic
with COVID, they're having thislike immune response now.
And I'm fearful for kids withschools opening up and these
(36:19):
little kids having this responseand then them coming home to
their parents or grandparents.
So we'll see, I'm hoping thenumbers are so low that maybe
that won't happen.
But time will tell, I think likeour new normal is going to be,
how do we stay connected andstay protected?
Kelley Lynch (36:49):
Do you think this experience has had a big impact
on how you think about life andyour priorities?
Samira Duja (36:56):
What are you passionate about?
What do you love?
What do you like?
What is it that you've beenputting off doing for a long
time that needs to happen now?
Because again, I watched so manypeople pass who now no longer
have that opportunity.
And so for me, I had to take,stop and take a look around my
(37:16):
own life and think about whathave I been putting off?
What am I really passionateabout?
What am I not doing that I'vebeen dreaming about doing?
And then start rearranging mylife that way.
Now is the time.
Life is now.
Now's the time to really takethings on, but you haven't taken
on before.
So I've managed to kick my momout of the kitchen for a couple
(37:38):
of nights a week.
And she's been good about that.
She's a great cook, but I thinkher palate always, you know,
used to Bengali cooking ortraditional Bangladeshi cooking.
And so that's where I haveexceeded her because I'll bake
Italian dishes and it tasteslike you go to the restaurant.
And so that's what I've beendoing is cooking and posting new
recipes on Facebook which hasbeen great, because it takes
(38:00):
away from the politics.
At the same time, I knowtherapists right now, their
calendars are packed, um,because people are having to
deal with their own mentalhealth and in these times.
And so that's also something tolike, you know, I think a lot of
people are embracing things thatthey haven't before and I want
(38:22):
to think that the way everyone'sgrowing inside of this is really
amazing.
Kelley Lynch (38:28):
Do you have a vision of the kinds of changes
you would like to see us make?
I think globally, nationally,
Samira Duja (38:36):
Where I would like for us to be in five years from
now is really a sense of acommunity like we've never had
before.
And especially given in themiddle of all of this, we are
also having protests and blacklives matter and that
conversation in the States alsoaround the world.
(38:58):
But I think the other end ofthis, what I would love to see
is for people to get outside ofthemselves and realize we're
part of one communityessentially.
And that's every single personon this planet is a part of
something bigger thanthemselves.
I think if we can get to thatplace just as a community, we
would be thriving so much morecoming out of COVID.
Kelley Lynch (39:20):
Thank you so much, Samira.
Samira Duja (39:21):
Thank you for having me.
Kelley Lynch (39:32):
Hey Cindy, Hey Tanvir how are you guys?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvi (39:35):
Surviving.
Cindy Sealls (39:36):
Doing great.
Kelley Lynch (39:38):
I know that usually I ask you guys what you
think, and then we have adiscussion, but today I've come
prepared with a question.
The thing I found mostinteresting was how these press
conferences reached right intothe hospital and had these very
(40:01):
immediate consequences.
And the contrast between the twodifferent kinds of press
conferences really got methinking about where we are in
this country at this moment.
And I think the thing that weare struggling with as much as
(40:25):
the virus is truth.
So what do you guys think?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (40:35):
It's interesting because if I look
back in my country, for whateverreason from the beginning, we
did not find any clearinformation shared from the
leadership or even the media.
So it actually gave way to thespeculations.
(40:59):
You know, like people wereguessing and people were
floating ideas.
Most of the time that did moreharm than help.
Kelley Lynch (41:12):
That's where all of these conspiracy theories
thrive.
That's where, you know, wealready have a situation where
there's so much mistrust ingovernment from all sides.
Cindy Sealls (41:26):
Just reading an article in scientific American
before the trust in governmentwas over 70% and then Vietnam
happened.
It dropped precipitously to makemaybe above 50, but then
Watergate happened.
(41:47):
So then it drops below 50 and itwent back up again in the
eighties with Reagan, but notmuch only, still just below 50.
And now it's down to 20,
Kelley Lynch (42:01):
20%?
Cindy Sealls (42:01):
20% of the American people trust the
government.
So now you say you have thispandemic, you want to tell
people what to do in thepandemic.
If they don't trust you, why arethey going to do what you say?
Kelley Lynch (42:23):
Well, and isn't it that we've also had kind of a
systemic, I think, particularlycoming from the conservative
side, there's been kind of thissystemic attack.
Cindy Sealls (42:34):
Absolutely on.
Then they bring that up in thearticle and his first inaugural
speech, Ronald Reagan said inthis present crisis, government
is not the solution to ourproblem.
Government is the problem.
(42:54):
His other famous quote aboutthat is the nine most terrifying
words in the English languageare I'm from the government and
I'm here to help.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
They've spent the last 40 years hammering that
message home.
So what do you think about that?
Cindy Sealls (43:17):
I think that the chickens come home to roost.
I mean, how can you say don'ttrust me, you don't trust me.
Don't trust me.
Don't trust me.
Okay.
Wait a minute on this one,though, you have to trust me.
Kelley Lynch (43:29):
That's the boy who cried Wolf.
Cndy Sealls (43:31):
The boy who cried Wolf.
Say you're in graduate school,you're taking a class and the
professor gets up and says,listen, this school is a piece
of crap.
They don't know what they'redoing.
Don't trust them.
Okay.
So now pull out your books.
We're going to go over thisstuff.
And the students are going.
(43:52):
You just told us that you don'tknow what you're talking about.
So why should we believe whatyou're now going to tell us or
try to teach us?
Or when your behavior encouragesdistrust like the police, then
it's hard to get that trustback.
It's hard to make people trustyou again.
(44:15):
The other thing in that articlewas about social distrust, not
just government, 70% ofAmericans don't believe that
other Americans have their bestinterests at heart.
I think, and I haven't done anyresearch, but think it might be
because we have demonized theother side.
(44:37):
So anybody who doesn't agreewith us is bad.
Kelley Lynch (44:42):
Whichever side you're on.
Cndy Sealls (44:43):
whichever side, you're on.
Kelley Lynch (44:46):
One of the other places where there's a lot of
questions is around the data andin this country, or shall we say
in the Western world, we haveall sorts of data being
systematically collected andstill we can't agree, but we do
(45:12):
have a lot of data.
And then when you think aboutdeveloping countries like
Bangladesh, data is really hardto come by on a lot of things.
I mean, for education, forhealth, there's just a real lack
of data.
(45:33):
I was reading the GreatInfluenza book again.
He was saying that they believethat probably 10% of the
population of developingcountries died during the 1918
flu.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (45:48):
I'm going to ask you a question.
Do both of you know that 3million people died in a
man-made famine in 1943 inBengal?
Cndy Sealls (46:02):
Did not know that.
Kelley Lynch (46:04):
I have known that doesn't mean that I remembered
it.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (46:10):
Yeah, that's my point is information
depends on who is sharing it,who is collecting it, who is
writing it.
So when you say that 10% of thepopulation of the developing
countries died in 1918 Spanishflu that we are talking about
(46:37):
the colonial period then.
So if the number would depend onthe colonial rulers.
If that went against them, youare looking at a reduced number
or no number at all.
Because in colonial rule, thecolonies were moneymaking
(47:01):
machine.
People did not matter.
You could get rid of an entirepopulation or an entire area of
people just because they wereinconvenient for extracting your
resources.
So, so when you talk aboutnumbers in 1918, I don't have
(47:25):
any faith in those numbers.
Kelley Lynch (47:28):
That's a great point.
Cndy Sealls (47:28):
That is, that is interesting.
Isn't it?
That they wouldn't report it.
It's kind of like WoodrowWilson, you know, but they did
not say anything about all thosepeople who were dying because
they didn't want people topanic.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:48):
Not panic, actually, it's people to
react.
Cndy Sealls (47:54):
Yeah.
React to what's going on.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (47:57):
Look at the Vietnam war.
You know what happened when thenumber skinny people started
reacting.
So, this whole idea of controlthe numbers of control, the
information source, even backthen in 1918, that was even more
in play because now we have amore open air kind of situation
(48:19):
where there are so many channelsof information sharing that even
if the government tried, or evenif a uthorities t ried, they
could not stop all the channels.
But back in 1918, there w ereonly a few channels and they w
ere under a uthorities control.
(48:39):
So whatever number we have fromthose days, those are just
numbers.
Kelley Lynch (48:48):
Today we have more numbers than we know what to do
with, but still, it seems likenobody can agree on what's true
and what's not true.
Facts.
Cndy Sealls (48:59):
There are facts and there are alternate facts,
right?
Kelley Lynch (49:03):
And honestly, people don't even know which is
which.
Cndy Sealls (49:06):
Yeah, because, well, wait a minute.
Which is which, becausesupposedly facts are the facts.
You know, the, what is thedefinition of a fact?
Let's see a fact, a thing thatis known or proved to be true.
Kelley Lynch (49:28):
That is why I got out of philosophy.
It was just too much shiftingsand underneath my feet.
Cndy Sealls (49:35):
That's what we have Kelly.
There's too much shifting sandin the world today where we
don't, none of us really knowswhat is true.
And we can't even finddefinitive corroborating
evidence.
Think about it.
(49:55):
Because now you can go onlineand find whatever quote, unquote
fact you want to find.
Kelley Lynch (50:06):
So I've thought about maybe I thought that maybe
the best thing is to just go tonews sources that I feel like I
can trust.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (50:15):
Well, don't get your hopes high.
Yeah, because these are owned bycorporates who actually have
their own agenda.
The way they edit news, theydon't lie, but you and I both
(50:36):
know what we perceive as factcan be manipulated in such a
way, just by editing that itcould give completely a
different meaning than what itlooks like.
It's like the famous example, aglass half-full half-empty.
It's the same thing nobody'slying.
(50:56):
But by saying that the glass ishalf-empty, it's a negative
connotation.
And by saying, laugh is a glassis half-full.
It's a positive connotation.
So both the parties are givingthe exact fact, but the way it's
presented that changes the wholeidea.
Kelley Lynch (51:18):
The fact that there are no facts or the fact
that there are facts and wecan't agree on them actually has
a really big impact on what weunderstand to be true and what
we can all agree to do as aresult of that.
Cndy Sealls (51:34):
Right.
That's right.
So I think that's why peoplereally liked listening to Cuomo.
Because it seemed that he wasbeing willing to be open and
honest about what was going on,what people needed to do, what
(51:54):
people needed to know.
He didn't seem not to sugar coatanything.
Um, and I think that that helpedpeople in New York and that area
feel confident that stateadministration was doing all
that they could to try to helpthem.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (52:17):
You feel confident of, you know, in the
government or authoritiesdecisions.
Like when they say stay home, ifyou know how many people are
actually dying or being affectedbecause of your actions, you
become more responsible.
You act more, much moreresponsibly when you have
(52:40):
authentic information.
Kelley Lynch (52:42):
That's a really great point.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (52:45):
You have to prioritize human life over
any kind of venture, any kind ofprofit, any kind of politics,
unless you do that 138,000people.
It's just a number.
Kelley Lynch (53:06):
I'm feeling a bit bad because I was going to have
this thing up on Wednesday.
Like I normally do and then Ifell down a rabbit hole.
I just couldn't figure out whatthe truth was.
And then I got that email todaythat was another untruth.
And then my computer getshacked.
(53:28):
So, that didn't help.
All I know was I spent a lot oftime dealing with somebody
else's untruth.
And some people listening to usare probably thinking they
already went down some sort of arabbit hole because maybe their
truth doesn't fit with ourtruth.
Cndy Sealls (53:47):
Maybe.
We're sorry that we took youdown into the rabbit hole.
Uh, and we hope you can get out,but we gotta go.
Bye!,
Kelley Lynch (53:57):
Yeah.
Hey, don't forget.
Subscribe, review, follow us onInstagram.
Although we don't even know ifwe're going to get a picture
this week, so take care.
Cndy Sealls (54:11):
and we'll throw you a rope so you can get out of the
rabbit hole and come and crawlback into another one with us
the next time.
Kelley Lynch & Cindy Seall (54:18):
Bye.
Bye.
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