June 24, 2020 • 45 mins
What's the future of tourism in a post-COVID-19 world? How do you do it sustainably, so that it benefits local communities without leaving a massive carbon footprint? Kelley talks with Mark Chapman, whose community tourism organization, Tesfa Tours, has been answering these questions—while providing guests with unforgettable experiences—for the last 20 years.
Check out Testa Tours at
www.tesfatours.com
Tesfa Tours has been featured in National Geographic, The Guardian, The New York Times, The Telegraph, The Irish Times and Wanderlust Travel Magazine.
Do yourself a favor and check out photos of Tesfa Tour's communities—located in the stunningly beautiful landscape of Northern Ethiopia—on our Instagram feed: https://www.instagram.com/anewnormalpodcast/
And if you have a suggestion for the show, by all means get in touch. Until our website is up and running you can contact me at www.kelleyslynch.com
The theme music is Fragilistic by Ketsa
licensed under CC BY NC ND 4.0
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cindy Sealls (00:02):
Remember, we would always joke about Siberia.
It's so cold.
It's Siberia.
Can't do that anymore.
It's a hundred degrees inSiberia.
Kelley Lynch (00:10):
That's amazing.
Cindy Sealls (00:10):
Take that out of our lingo.
Can't say that anymore.
Whenever you thought of Siberia,it's freezing.
That's all you thought of.
It's cold.
No matter what time of year.
It's cold.
It's Siberia.
Kelley Lynch (00:26):
That's right.
Cindy Sealls (00:27):
But, not anymore.
Kelley Lynch (00:30):
Man, that's a whole new normal.
Cindy Sealls (00:32):
I was reading this, just kind of looking up
Okay, what are they saying aboutglobal warming and how many
people will die every year?
Kelley Lynch (00:42):
You looked that up?
Cindy Sealls (00:43):
I did.
They are guessing 250,000 peoplea year from stuff like all of
the breathing problems peopleare gonna have, heat stroke you
know, older people will die.
Of course, because they're theones who are most vulnerable
(01:05):
when it gets hot.
And I was thinking, okay, howmany people have died of covid?
Like we're going on half amillion, right?
Kelley Lynch (01:12):
Worldwide?
Cindy Sealls (01:13):
Worldwide.
Kelley Lynch (01:14):
Hold on.
I can figure that out.
Uh, let me just Google thatright now...
More than 450,000 people havedied worldwide.
Cindy Sealls (01:27):
Yeah.
Like almost half a millionpeople.
And look at the way we'retreating it.
Kelley Lynch (01:33):
It really seems to have fallen off the radar.
And then you notice that thePresident and Vice President
don't even wear a mask.
Cindy Sealls (01:41):
They have a rally.
People don't have a mask.
You don't have to have a maskbecause it's a joke.
People think it's a joke.
Kelley Lynch (01:48):
I was reading last night in middle of the night.
I think all these things werekind of weighing on my mind.
And so it was about 1:30am Iwoke up and I thought, okay,
I'll just read.
And I pulled out my GreatInfluenza book.
So, I was reading about WoodrowWilson.
(02:09):
And I was pretty amazed.
Let's start with the fact thatpeople were told not to even
publish that news.
Cindy Sealls (02:24):
Why was that?
Kelley Lynch (02:25):
Because he wanted to focus on the war effort.
It was censorship came fromwithin, but it also was enforced
by different agencies and youwere not allowed to say things
against the government becauseof this.
And so people didn't know aboutthe pandemic in the way that
(02:47):
they might have done.
They didn't hear about all thepeople going across to the war
and dying on the ships on theway because of the virus.
The mechanisms are different,but the idea is the same.
The idea that this thing isn'teven happening or this thing
(03:08):
isn't even real or this thing,isn't even something that we
really need to bother with.
Cindy Sealls (03:15):
This is war against COVID
everybody go out, go out andshop.
You know, that whole 9/11 thingwhen they came out right after
9/11, just like go shop, goshop.
That was the president'smessage.
(03:36):
We're not afraid of you,Al-Qaida.
We're going to go out and getcoffee, tomorrow.
Nana nana na.
I'm like what?
Kelley Lynch (03:49):
The American consumer will triumph.
Cindy Sealls (03:53):
You know, I mean it was just crazy.
This is us (03:57):
consume, consume, consume.
That's our American way.
Kelley Lynch (04:14):
Hi, my name's Kelly Lynch.
Welcome to A New Normal, apodcast about how we're adapting
to life during the pandemic andwhere we go from here.
My guest today is Mark Chapman.
Mark runs Tesfa Tours, anorganization devoted to
community tourism in Ethiopia.
COVID-19 has impacted tourismmore than almost any other
(04:36):
industry.
I wanted to find out how Markand his communities are
adapting.
Wow.
Nice to see you, Mark.
Mark Chapman (04:49):
It's lovely to see you as well.
It's really great.
Kelley Lynch (04:52):
Yeah.
It's been a long time.
Mark Chapman (04:55):
Goodness knows how long it's been.
I just now and then see youmoving around on Facebook and
now you're flying betweendifferent places.
Kelley Lynch (05:01):
I think the last time was a couple of years ago
when I was in Ethiopia.
Mark Chapman (05:05):
Things are different at the moment, huh?
Kelley Lynch (05:07):
Man, things are different at the moment.
What's going on in Ethiopia?
Mark Chapman (05:12):
Well, we're, we're in a funny situation because as
you know, uh, Ethiopian airlinesflies to China all the time,
more than a dozen flights a weekbefore the virus started and
they carried on through January,through February, flights were
coming in.
Complaints were being made fromother heads of State within
(05:33):
Africa because Ethiopia was acorridor by which everyone
assumed the virus would come in.
So we fast forward now tosecond, half of April.
There hasn't been a hugeoutbreak here.
Most of the cases that have comethrough recently have been
people that have flown intoAddis and have been put into
(05:55):
automatic quarantine.
You have to do 14 days when youarrive in a hotel and at your
own cost.
The Prime Minister has said, wecan't do a full lock down.
People have no way to buyprovisions for a week.
They don't have the money forthat.
There's a lot of people thatwon't have access to running
(06:15):
water in their own compound.
So hand-washing is already amassive problem, but there are
hand washing stations out on thestreet in front of shops and in
front of the banks.
So they're pushing that.
They've tried to get people towear face masks when they go
out.
They've banned meetings of morethan four.
People have said that if you'retraveling in public transport,
(06:37):
the half the seats have to beempty.
So they are trying to sloweverything down.
A lot of government offices areclosed or semi-closed.
Some businesses have beenadvised to sort of slow down.
Churches and mosques have beenshut.
Which is an incredible thing.
As you understand, people hereare very devout.
Schools are closed as well andthey have no facility to provide
(07:02):
online education for t heirstudents.
Talking to somebody from theministry of education in a
meeting the other day, Iunderstand that the government
is considering that everybodywill just, once covid has gone,
they will restart the last year.
So everybody will go back a yeareffectively or go back to where
(07:24):
they were in September, 2019 andrestart that year.
That will be from primary allthe way through to university.
Kelley Lynch (07:34):
Wow.
That's quite something.
Are people accepting thingsreasonably easily or?
Mark Chapman (07:41):
Yeah, I think there's a good number of people
that are scared.
And that number is growing.
As stories get passed aroundinformation is spread.
We have a very good minister ofhealth.
She's been posting regularly onFacebook and other sources.
Business leaders and oppositionparties and politicians have all
(08:03):
come together to support thevery sensible measures really
that the government is takinghere.
So at the moment everybody'ssort of pulling together.
Kelley Lynch (08:24):
One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is
because probably more thananybody, I would imagine your
business has been severelyimpacted.
Mark Chapman (08:33):
Kelley, as you know, I've been 20 years
developing community-basedtourism.
We have built a number of guesthouses across mountains in the
North of Ethiopia and theseguest houses, I say we, but
we've funded the communities tobuild simple accommodation.
(08:54):
And then our guests walk fromguest house to guest house.
55% of the income stays with thecommunities.
25% goes to the guides and wetake 20%.
My company Tesfa tours are doingthe marketing and booking.
So it is a philanthropicexercise, but of course, since
(09:17):
April we've had no clients atall.
So we're quite lucky in a waybecause the virus impacted us
after our high season, which wasOctober, November, December,
January, but still, this is,this is a long period without
any income.
If some people are forecastsinternational flights increase
(09:38):
hugely in cost and people are ina massive recession through
Europe and America and our otherclient countries.
Then we could find we've gotvery, very few guests and it's
going to become quite a struggleto keep things together.
Kelley Lynch (09:58):
When I first reached out to you about doing
the podcast, you mentioned oneof the things that have been on
your mind most was your childrenand what this means for them.
Do you want to talk about that?
Mark Chapman (10:14):
Yeah.
Well, I've got four kids,Kelley, as you know, the oldest,
my daughter, 18 years old goingto be 19 next week is studying
development at university.
And my youngest son is in yearone at the British school here.
He's five years old.
So, I'm extremely concernedabout what future is left for
(10:34):
them.
I'm coming up 55.
So, you know, I'm on the otherside of the curve and I've had
the great fortune to see a lotof biodiversity, go to some
amazing places.
I was actually thinking thatmaybe I should take my kids to
Kenya and show them a bit of thewildlife there while it's still
(10:57):
there.
Because five years from nowwhat's going to be left there?
What's the situation going tobe?
So I'm extremely concerned.
Coming into COVID-19 we've seenthe pause button get pressed.
Suddenly skies have clearedcanals in Venice by all accounts
(11:18):
h ave cleaned up and thepollution has reduced
enormously.
So we have a kind of goldenopportunity to decide how we
restart this.
And if we leave it to Trump andJohnson, and all of these people
to make the decisions for us, bythe time my kids are starting
(11:42):
families, we're going to befighting a lot worse disasters
then the coronavirus withflooding and forest fires and
droughts, huge tension betweenthose countries that have, a nd
those countries that have not.
Coastlines being i nundated.
Populations, moving it's scary,scary stuff.
(12:05):
And we just can't seem to reactto it in the way that needs to
be done then and change thepriorities.
So when you said let's have achat about these things.
I had a long talk with my oldestkids, my teenagers about how do
we get everybody linked in tostart having a conversation?
(12:28):
And that it's really, we failed.
I mean, my generation has failedto make the changes and they
need to recognize that we haveto have a revolution.
I mean, some total change in theway that economics is viewed and
the value given to profit.
(12:48):
The value given to making money.
T he value given to producingmore and more stuff that half
the time we don't really need.
I t was a conversation that wenton w ell i nto the night.
But, somehow I think we have to,before these lockdowns end, w
(13:09):
hile families a re together, wehave to try to get grasp the,
the concept a nd changepoliticians' minds.
I really don't know how we goabout doing that, but that seems
to me, yeah, the biggestchallenge that we all face, it's
not COVID-19.
(13:30):
COVID-19 will pass.
People will die.
We will all lose people we know,very sadly and companies will go
bust and unemployment'srocketing through the roof.
We know all of this.
People are going to suffer, butthings will pick up again.
(13:50):
The virus will go and life willresume.
But the real challenge is how dowe make it resume in a way that
that gives the planet a chanceto recover from all of this
terrible human activity over thelast 50 years, The rain patterns
(14:25):
are changing.
It should be really dry fromearly October through late
December.
But in the last few years, everyyear, there's a period of two
weeks of quite heavy rain, whichdoes damage to the harvest
that's coming in.
(14:46):
My fear is that in a comingyear, we're going to lose the
rainy season and it's not goingto come properly.
And because life is so much onthe edge for so many of these
people, that has an impact andnumbers are huge with 110
million in Ethiopia.
There's millions of farmers thatcan't survive the whole year
(15:08):
without food aid.
So there's a permanent foodinsecurity issue.
And then every year, one ofthese areas gets impacted and
then there's another five or 10million people that need
feeding.
So that's a constant hair findas weather patterns get more and
more changed.
(15:29):
Of course, Ethiopia is going toget more and more problems.
Kelley Lynch (15:43):
So when we start talking about things, going back
to quote unquote normal, what doyou think about that?
Mark Chapman (15:53):
Of course, I'm in tourism and, and one of the
ironies is tourism relies onpeople flying.
People, aren't going to come toEthiopia unless they jump on a
flight from Europe or the Statesor wherever.
So, we all recognize that flyingis bad for the environment.
And I've had prior to COVID-19,I was having talks with a very
(16:17):
interesting guy who runsresponsible travel.com, Justin
Francis, about whether we shouldeven be in this business., Is
this the right thing to bedoing?
And he was talking about thefact that people's travel
patterns need to change.
They need to travel for longertrips and make more out of those
(16:39):
trips so that the trips need tobe more responsible while
they're out there.
So instead of people coming fora week to 10 days, people should
be coming for two weeks to threeweeks.
While in country, they should bethinking about how they're
spending the money and howthat's impacting on local
people.
So I accept that travel shouldbecome something that is a
(17:04):
little bit more expensivebecause you're going to have to
spend more on flights.
And instead of taking lots oflittle short breaks, people
should put the one trip a yearwhere you go off for longer to a
country that needs theirsupport.
Because without tourism, a lotof developing countries would be
economically really challenged.
I mean, Ethiopia has a fairlysmall tourism industry- perhaps
(17:28):
50,000 tourists a year.
So it's a very small n umber it's really, but that's vital to
a huge number of people inGondar, in Lalibela i n the
Simien mountains.
One of the cooks that I workwith in the Simien mountains
sent me text messages, did theysaying I have a work for a
couple of months.
(17:48):
I've got no money f or myfamily.
Can you help me?
So without tourists coming,there's going to be a massive
economic hit on what is a fairlygreen industry in some respects.
So it will be a pity if peopledon't fly at all.
But I think people's consumptionof holidays has to change.
(18:10):
My business is focused oncommunity tourism, which is the
lowest possible carbon impactwalking from village to village.
So I'm going to be putting outsome suggested trips on our
website, which will be very lowcarbon holidays.
And then when you're staying atthese community guests house,
your carbon footprint is waylower than it would be back at
(18:33):
home.
And yet you're putting moneyinto local farmers pockets,
which is much needed.
So, I think there is an argumentthat the kind of tourism that
I'm doing has a strong placewithin a brave new world where
we're trying to do things tobenefit the poorer section of
(18:56):
the world.
Trying to learn more about themand trying to minimize our
carbon footprint.
Kelley Lynch (19:12):
Some people say that the system, I suppose we
could say whether it'scorporations or governments, are
really too powerful for us tomake any of these kinds of
changes you're talking about,particularly with the
environment.
What do you think about that?
Mark Chapman (19:32):
Yeah, I think, I think that's the reason why we
haven't reacted to the climatechange problems as we've reacted
to COVID-19 because businesseshaven't been able to see that
it's in their interests tochange to a carbon free world a
(19:54):
low consumption world from thatwe've got to change patterns of
consumption so that it's not allabout getting the latest thing,
how much you spend, how much youmake.
We've got to change the valuesof the world, but it doesn't
suit Amazon.
It doesn't suit BP and all thebig corporations around the
(20:14):
world to do that.
And they have a massive lobby.
They control the media thatthese corporations can very
easily put information out thereand support it and create this
counter movement that's thinkingthat this is all a hoax that
it's all going to change.
We don't have to listen to itand I can aspire to get the new
(20:37):
65 inch TV that makes you a cupof tea in the morning and all
the other stuff.
The pressure is there for youjust to buy the next of, of kit
and stuff and the fancy newshoes.
And how do we change that?
What I came back to talking withmy kids was the whole me too
campaign.
(20:59):
And that something like thatneeds to sweep through something
that captures the, a high enoughpercentage of young people
between the ages of 16 and 26.
That sort of technically savvy,they're always on Instagram,
they're always posting andstuff, and they don't have
(21:20):
mortgages.
They don't have to pay theirkids' school fees yet.
They're the ones who areindependent that can shoot from
the hip and move fast andchange.
It's much harder when yourealize you've got to pay all
these school fees.
You've got to make sure yourkids are funded at university
and you've got mortgage to payon your house.
(21:42):
All of these things force you tosort of stay on the path that's
been traveled before, but thatyounger generation can be the
revolutionaries and take us intonew territory.
Kelley Lynch (21:55):
Coming out of this, you have the magic wand
and say, I want to change, or Iwant to change these two or
three things going forward.
What would those be and why?
Mark Chapman (22:09):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, you've got to get to theheart of the problems or how
you've got to change the valuethat is given to making a
profit.
The drive to be not justprofitable but then make more,
(22:32):
increase your dividends,increase your profit.
I mean, I often wonder what isit that drives wealthy people to
become even wealthier.
I mean, once you've got the nicecar or you've got the second
home and you've got the privatejet and you've got all the
stupid stuff that you surroundyourself with, there comes a
(22:54):
point where you can't, you justcan't spend it.
You end up with cars andmotorbikes in garages under
wraps and houses you never visitand planes you never fly.
So what is it that's drivingpeople to keep making money.
It's the equation of money andpower.
Isn't it?
It's if you've got more money,you're more powerful.
(23:15):
And if you've got more money,again, you're more powerful than
any other guy.
And it's it's that, that we needto, we need to somehow change.
You have this equation betweenmaking money and success.
That equation has to be brokensomehow.
And the success in your lifeshould not be about the wealth.
(23:40):
It should be about spreadinggoodness, spreading love,
spreading happiness to thepeople around you.
Sometimes when I go trekking upin the mountains, I get to
somewhere really beautiful andit's a moving experience.
It's sometimes I get tears in myeyes and just well up, just so
privileged to be there, such abeautiful place.
(24:03):
And it's so magical.
It's grounded.
It feels like it's the high youwere meant to get.
There's something spiritualabout it.
So it's a shift in our valuesfrom values where we're valuing
being part of the world asagainst doing something that's
(24:25):
damaging to it.
I think too many people say,look, there's nothing we can do.
I compost, or I separate out mytrash and my rubbish into the
different bits of recycling andso on.
(24:45):
And I take my shopping bag intothe supermarket.
We've got a bottle of water, sowe don't buy plastic bottles.
People do t heir little b its,but yet without government
coming on board, as in thelockdowns, now the government h
ave said, you have to do this.
You have to stop doing that.
Unless government w ould come onboard in the same way, many
(25:08):
people we speak to say I'vealmost given up.
What's t he p oint because we'regoing nowhere fast.
So we have to somehow be able tocome together and show that
there are enough of us and thatthere is a way forward to change
things.
And it's not one little thinglike we've got to stop plastic
(25:29):
bottles and we've got to dothis.
It's going to the heart it as wejust discussed and trying to
change the values of this world.
And now is an opportunity thatwe never thought we'd have.
We have to take this.
Now we have no time.
(25:49):
We don't have a year to wait andtalk about it and then do
something.
We have to actually startsomething today, tomorrow and
next week.
Kelley Lynch (26:12):
It had been almost a month and a half since I
talked to Mark, I wanted to callback and see what had changed.
So Mark, it's good to see youagain.
Mark Chapman (26:22):
Yeah.
Lovely to see you once more.
Kelley Lynch (26:24):
It's been five weeks now, since we talked, I
wondered if you could tell meabout what's changed.
Mark Chapman (26:31):
Yeah.
Well, around the middle of may,things were poodleing along with
the numbers very small.
Somewhere around the end of May,that started to change, but
we're still not in a situationwhere we have a large number of
deaths relative to thepopulation or a large number of
(26:53):
people getting sick.
There's a certain amount ofprecautions.
People are wearing face masks,but it's business as usual for
many, many people.
Kelley Lynch (27:02):
The last time we talked, I think you were
planning on planning about whatto do business wise and with a
Tesfa tours and everything else.
So how has your planningevolved?
Mark Chapman (27:16):
We're not going to have a full business model until
September, 2021.
We assume my main model isthough for the period, let's say
October, November, December isgoing to be to try to stimulate
domestic tourism.
As wealthy Ethiopians,moderately wealthy Ethiopians
(27:39):
and expats who are stuck herefor whatever reason, won't
really feel able to travelabroad, I'm hoping that we could
increase the a mounts of incountry travel we get from them.
And we can also present it tothem, on the one hand, this is a
great opportunity to exploreyour own country.
There, I'm particularly thinkingabout Ethiopians, who haven't
(28:03):
been to Lalibela and Gondar andthe Simiens.
This is a great opportunity forthem to see their own country.
Of course, that can't reallyhappen until it's the corner i s
turned probably on the otherside of the rainy season.
At the end of September,October, it should be possible
to say to people the virus is inretreat.
(28:24):
Why not come and visit theseplaces?
There's no tourists come and see it when it's empty and
support your national culturalheritage.
Kelley Lynch (28:31):
Speaking of that cultural heritage and, uh, the
people who live there, whatabout your communities?
What has happened with them?
How are they fairing?
Mark Chapman (28:45):
So I was having a chat with somebody in Lalibela.
He runs quite a famousrestaurant there that's been on
BBC, and he's been investing inAirbnb rooms and built a small
lodge.
So he's struggling.
So people like that that areinvested in the tourism industry
in a big way, are struggling.
(29:07):
For our communities, they're notin such a bad situation at this
point, because one of theconcepts of community tourism
was not to make these peopletotally dependent on tourism,
because we always knew somethingcould come up.
I mean, we never dreamt ofCOVID-19, but it Ebola was
creating problems in other partsof Africa.
(29:29):
And had it got more serious inKenya and Uganda, it would have
impacted tourism more than itdid in Ethiopia.
We were always suspecting aterrorist case might harm
tourism in Ethiopia as well.
So, it was important to try tomake sure that community tourism
(29:52):
didn't mean that thesecommunities were totally
dependent for everything ontourism.
It's supposed to be an extraincome that helps them do other
things.
And at the moment farmingactivities are carrying on.
Farmers are selling theirproduce in markets and food is
moving around.
So traders are buying food fromfarmers, grain, livestock, and
(30:17):
what have you.
So I think at least untilSeptember, we should be okay,
but we I'm planning to try toprovide a bit of money to some
of the communities who are alittle bit more insecure.
They haven't had that muchtourism.
The ones that have had 10 yearsof solid tourism can weather the
storm.
The ones that have had, it'sbeen a bit iffy and hasn't been
(30:40):
going for so many years.
Those will need a little bitmore financial support in the
coming months,
Kelley Lynch (30:47):
Looking forward.
Have you had any other thoughtsabout where tourism might
ultimately head as a result ofall of this?
Mark Chapman (30:56):
As you know, I'm very, very concerned about the
global environment, globalwarming climate change and these
issues.
And I think these are going tointerplay more and more with
tourism, which we'll haveperhaps two effects, one, it
will stop some people traveling.
They won't want to take flights.
Also it's going to damage theirincome.
(31:18):
So some people won't be able totravel, but those people that do
travel, an increasing proportionof them will look to travel in a
more sustainable way.
I don't see travel stopping atthis point.
I think people will still wantto travel.
I was just reading recently someof the reviews from some of the
(31:40):
clients over the last year.
They've emailed me and said,look, can we do anything to
help?
The guides, the communities werefantastic.
It was a moving experience forus to visit these communities
and we want to give something inthis difficult time.
That reminds me of how importantthis tourism is.
If we can change people'soutlook and give people
(32:03):
something special from thevisits to these communities, it
justifies the tourism.
It justifies what we're doing inthis changing and difficult
world.
Kelley Lynch (32:15):
So what's, I mean, what's the value of this, that
that might make it so much moreworthwhile to spend that money
and to spend that time and to,to spend that carbon?
Mark Chapman (32:26):
A trip to Ethiopia is always going to be special.
I think because it's such adifferent country from, one,
what people expect it to be andsecondly, from anywhere else in
the world.
It really does have its ownunique place.
And then when you go up into themountains where we've set up
these community guest houses andyou stay with these local
(32:47):
farmers who are some of thepoorest people on the planet in
GDP terms, in terms of theassets they've got: phones,
clothes, houses, tools, cars.
But when you stay there as aguest of these farmers and you,
(33:07):
you spend a bit of time withthem.
They're so ready to smile andready to enjoy the moment and so
happy to have you there as theirguest.
It doesn't feel like an unequalinteraction.
As a tourist there, you'repaying them a reasonable amount
(33:27):
of money to get a lovely serviceand to actually join their lives
in some kind of way for a periodof days.
And for many, many of ourguests, this is the highlight of
their trip in Ethiopia, despitevisits to the Simien national
park and a beautiful lodge andthe Lalibela churches, which are
(33:49):
one of the wonders of the world.
Staying with these farmers inthis almost, some people
describe it as a sort ofbiblical landscape with the
flocks of sheep and herds ofcattle and a farmer with a white
cotton shawl draped over him.
Churches here and there.
(34:10):
Markets that they head to.
And the rhythm of life isgoverned by the church and the
market and the community events,weddings, and funerals, and
other events within thecommunity.
And life slows down to thatlevel.
I think it connects to how wefeel we lived in some kind of a
(34:30):
time before all of this stuffthat we've got in our lives now
that clutters our lives.
And it takes us to a place whereyou can imagine you've thrown
out the mobile phone and thelaptop and the internet and
you're living simply in thehours that the daylight gives
you.
You go to bed in the eveningwith a little bit of drumming
(34:51):
and little bit of singing and abeer and a good wholesome meal
in your stomach.
Wake up the next morning to abeautiful dawn.
You see gelada baboons.
You see a vulture or alammergeier or an Eagle cruise
along on the thermals, and youcouldn't want to be anywhere
else in the world at thatmoment.
(35:12):
It's very, very special.
Kelley Lynch (35:14):
Hearing you describe it.
It makes me really missEthiopia.
Yes, people are materially poor,but so rich in so many other
ways, things that we have lostor lost sight of.
And like you said, the rhythmsof life that's lived within the
(35:34):
whole context of a community andthe natural world.
It's a totally differentexperience.
Mark Chapman (35:42):
That's right.
Yeah.
And I think at the crossroadsthat we're at now, where we have
to make these decisions aboutlifestyle to spend some days out
there having a detox experiencewhere you realize what's really
important.
And these people who are really,they don't know how they're
(36:02):
going to put food on their tablefor the next a few months,
depending on the time of year,they may be in a shortage.
But if they've got food, they'llbring you a handful of beans
from the field for you to eat asyou walk past.
If you drop in at somebody'shouse, they'll make coffee for
you.
They don't think as we do, Idon't have enough food for my
(36:23):
kids and my kids' education andthe wedding and the, this, and
the, that.
That isn't coming into thattheir equation at all.
They're just living for today.
And if they've got, they shareand everyone shares together.
And yes, it's something we needto learn from.
And I think that's why it makesit so special and where it
really affects the people thatcome out on these trips.
(36:44):
Some of them are completelyblown away, but it affects
everyone slightly differently,depending on where they are in
their own life and how open theyare to the experience.
It's not forced upon anyone.
Some people go through that andtheir big focus is the trekking.
But for most people, they get anawful lot from this community
interaction.
Kelley Lynch (37:05):
If you're going to spend your money and you're
gonna spend your carbon, that'swhere I would spend it.
Mark Chapman (37:13):
Yeah.
I think that's how people havegot to start thinking now.
Whether they're traveling toEthiopia or some other country,
when you go there spend yourcarbon wisely.
Kelley Lynch (37:25):
indeed.
I'm really looking forward tohearing that your September
through January season, it's agreat success.
I.
Mark Chapman (37:38):
I hope so.
Even that's a great thingbecause we can bring that same
spirit we're talking about tothe elites in Ethiopia who need
it.
Some of them are Americandiaspora Ethiopians and they've
come back with a lot of thatmaterialistic idea of life that
(37:59):
everyone in the West gets andthey don't travel in their own
country.
They'll prefer to go to Dubai oroff to the West.
So, this could be a greatopportunity to awaken something
amongst some of them.
Kelley Lynch (38:14):
Fantastic.
It's like coronavirusopportunities.
They're kind of sprinkled aroundout there.
Not always easy to see it first.
I'm glad you found it.
Well, Mark, thank you so much.
Hey, that was a real pleasure,Kelly.
And we'll talk soon.
(38:36):
How are you guys?
Cindy Sealls (38:37):
Good?
How are you doing good.
Sound good.
Kelley Lynch (38:41):
Tanvir, you're alive?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvi (38:42):
Definitely alive.
And as you keep saying, that's agood thing.
Kelley Lynch (38:49):
So, I've been going through all of the hours
and hours of audio that we'verecorded just to fill this slot.
And I have to say, I'm trying tofind some note of positivity in
(39:09):
all of this, and I'm reallystruggling because there are
these strong parallels betweenhow we've handled COVID and how
we're handling global warming.
Basically, there's this largecohort of people who don't
believe in science.
The parallel with global warmingis clear and that it's like, is
(39:33):
the virus even real?
We can't even agree on that.
And same thing goes for globalwarming.
And then you've got this aspectof preparation and we had time
to prepare, but nothing wasdone.
You need government leadershipthat has been what is missing.
(39:56):
That's another parallel.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (39:58):
With t he pandemic, all the countries in
the world had a t ime that theycould actually prepare
themselves for this, but theythought this is not going to
impact me.
Or this is not coming for me.
Same thing with the climatechange.
Everyone is thinking, this isnot my problem.
It's Bangladesh's problem.
(40:19):
People in Europe, people in theUS or Western world is thinking,
this is a third world problem.
Let them deal with it.
Kelley Lynch (40:26):
It is coming from the U S as well, whether we
believe it or not.
And I think we've had a chanceto see that during the pandemic,
we've been presented with a veryclear picture of how fragile
many of our systems are,including our food supply.
That's something so many of ushave seen firsthand during the
pandemic.
You go to the grocery store andthere's nothing on the shelves.
Cindy Sealls (40:49):
If you really think deeply About what could
happen with global warming, Imean, it panics you and you,
you, you know, it's like asituation where somebody comes
up to you with a gun and eitheryou freeze or you react.
I think a lot of us are frozen.
Kelley Lynch (41:05):
I'm really afraid that nobody's going to even be
with us still, that everybody'sgoing to have dropped off
because this whole thing seemsso negative.
It's such a downer.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (41:19):
Don't lose hope, guys.
I'm not the exactly right.
Person to talk about the hole,but you're the one who's going
to bring hope this time.
Yeah.
This time it'll be me.
I have worked in anenvironmental project for five
years in Bangladesh.
I have seen what we have done tothe environment.
(41:42):
And I have seen the flip side ofit as well.
When we planted as areforestation about 1.2 million
trees, we saw birds come back,bees come back.
And when we protected a patch ofthe beach, where the rare
(42:06):
turtles hatch, they nest andthey hatch there.
And you know, the joy of seeingthem go back to the sea.
It's absolutely amazing.
And that actually gives us hopebecause we can destroy it, but
(42:26):
we also can protect it.
Just look at the lockdown periodbecause of the dust and the
pollution, it's been 30 or 40years since I saw a rainbow in
the sky in Dhaka.
During this lockdown, weactually had a rainbow, 180
(42:48):
degree rainbow.
And the last two months, once weactually woke up, with the sound
of the birds.
I would say, this is the silverlining.
Kelley Lynch (43:00):
You're right.
Without hope, what have we gotto get up for in the morning?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:05):
And ouf love for this life, that keeps
us going.
Cindy Sealls (43:19):
Did you know there's another global pandemic
that's been going on forthousands of years?
Kelley Lynch (43:25):
Thousands?
What's that?
Cindy Sealls (43:27):
Thousands, tuberculosis,
Kelley Lynch (43:30):
Oh man.
I had no idea.
Tuberculosis was a pandemic.
Cindy Sealls (43:37):
Yup.
And affects millions of peopleevery year and kills over a
million people every year.
I just remember that they calledit consumption.
They would say, what did theydie out?
And they died of consumption,but maybe we'll die of a
different kind of consumption.
It looks like we are going todie of a different type of
(43:58):
consumption.
But one thing we can consume andit's not going to hurt us,
actually, it will help us.
And that is if people consumethis podcast,
Kelley Lynch (44:09):
Bad news, I did read that we are actually
contributing to climate changeevery time you search on a
search engine.
Cindy Sealls (44:20):
That's why they should subscribe.
And they don't have to searchpops right into your phone or
your computer, your iPad.
You're saving the world.
They listening to us and savingthe world at the same time.
Kelley Lynch (44:34):
I know there are major flaws with this logic, but
I'm going to go with thatbecause I liked that idea.
Cindy Sealls (44:40):
Well, you just said it's when they search.
Kelley Lynch (44:42):
Well, you're accessing stuff anyway.
I'm not even gonna go there, butyou know what I like what you
said, you're saving the worldevery time you listen to our
podcast.
Cindy Sealls (44:54):
When you listen, when you subscribe, see, there
you've got to subscribe and thenyou don't have to search and
you're saving the planet andyou're learning something.
And hopefully you're sharing uswith other folks and you tell
them to subscribe so they cansave the planet.
Kelley Lynch (45:12):
I love it.
All right, go do it.
Remember, we would always joke about Siberia.
It's so cold.
It's Siberia.
Can't do that anymore.
It's a hundred degrees inSiberia.
Kelley Lynch (00:10):
That's amazing.
Cindy Sealls (00:10):
Take that out of our lingo.
Can't say that anymore.
Whenever you thought of Siberia,it's freezing.
That's all you thought of.
It's cold.
No matter what time of year.
It's cold.
It's Siberia.
Kelley Lynch (00:26):
That's right.
Cindy Sealls (00:27):
But, not anymore.
Kelley Lynch (00:30):
Man, that's a whole new normal.
Cindy Sealls (00:32):
I was reading this, just kind of looking up
Okay, what are they saying aboutglobal warming and how many
people will die every year?
Kelley Lynch (00:42):
You looked that up?
Cindy Sealls (00:43):
I did.
They are guessing 250,000 peoplea year from stuff like all of
the breathing problems peopleare gonna have, heat stroke you
know, older people will die.
Of course, because they're theones who are most vulnerable
(01:05):
when it gets hot.
And I was thinking, okay, howmany people have died of covid?
Like we're going on half amillion, right?
Kelley Lynch (01:12):
Worldwide?
Cindy Sealls (01:13):
Worldwide.
Kelley Lynch (01:14):
Hold on.
I can figure that out.
Uh, let me just Google thatright now...
More than 450,000 people havedied worldwide.
Cindy Sealls (01:27):
Yeah.
Like almost half a millionpeople.
And look at the way we'retreating it.
Kelley Lynch (01:33):
It really seems to have fallen off the radar.
And then you notice that thePresident and Vice President
don't even wear a mask.
Cindy Sealls (01:41):
They have a rally.
People don't have a mask.
You don't have to have a maskbecause it's a joke.
People think it's a joke.
Kelley Lynch (01:48):
I was reading last night in middle of the night.
I think all these things werekind of weighing on my mind.
And so it was about 1:30am Iwoke up and I thought, okay,
I'll just read.
And I pulled out my GreatInfluenza book.
So, I was reading about WoodrowWilson.
(02:09):
And I was pretty amazed.
Let's start with the fact thatpeople were told not to even
publish that news.
Cindy Sealls (02:24):
Why was that?
Kelley Lynch (02:25):
Because he wanted to focus on the war effort.
It was censorship came fromwithin, but it also was enforced
by different agencies and youwere not allowed to say things
against the government becauseof this.
And so people didn't know aboutthe pandemic in the way that
(02:47):
they might have done.
They didn't hear about all thepeople going across to the war
and dying on the ships on theway because of the virus.
The mechanisms are different,but the idea is the same.
The idea that this thing isn'teven happening or this thing
(03:08):
isn't even real or this thing,isn't even something that we
really need to bother with.
Cindy Sealls (03:15):
This is war against COVID
everybody go out, go out andshop.
You know, that whole 9/11 thingwhen they came out right after
9/11, just like go shop, goshop.
That was the president'smessage.
(03:36):
We're not afraid of you,Al-Qaida.
We're going to go out and getcoffee, tomorrow.
Nana nana na.
I'm like what?
Kelley Lynch (03:49):
The American consumer will triumph.
Cindy Sealls (03:53):
You know, I mean it was just crazy.
This is us (03:57):
consume, consume, consume.
That's our American way.
Kelley Lynch (04:14):
Hi, my name's Kelly Lynch.
Welcome to A New Normal, apodcast about how we're adapting
to life during the pandemic andwhere we go from here.
My guest today is Mark Chapman.
Mark runs Tesfa Tours, anorganization devoted to
community tourism in Ethiopia.
COVID-19 has impacted tourismmore than almost any other
(04:36):
industry.
I wanted to find out how Markand his communities are
adapting.
Wow.
Nice to see you, Mark.
Mark Chapman (04:49):
It's lovely to see you as well.
It's really great.
Kelley Lynch (04:52):
Yeah.
It's been a long time.
Mark Chapman (04:55):
Goodness knows how long it's been.
I just now and then see youmoving around on Facebook and
now you're flying betweendifferent places.
Kelley Lynch (05:01):
I think the last time was a couple of years ago
when I was in Ethiopia.
Mark Chapman (05:05):
Things are different at the moment, huh?
Kelley Lynch (05:07):
Man, things are different at the moment.
What's going on in Ethiopia?
Mark Chapman (05:12):
Well, we're, we're in a funny situation because as
you know, uh, Ethiopian airlinesflies to China all the time,
more than a dozen flights a weekbefore the virus started and
they carried on through January,through February, flights were
coming in.
Complaints were being made fromother heads of State within
(05:33):
Africa because Ethiopia was acorridor by which everyone
assumed the virus would come in.
So we fast forward now tosecond, half of April.
There hasn't been a hugeoutbreak here.
Most of the cases that have comethrough recently have been
people that have flown intoAddis and have been put into
(05:55):
automatic quarantine.
You have to do 14 days when youarrive in a hotel and at your
own cost.
The Prime Minister has said, wecan't do a full lock down.
People have no way to buyprovisions for a week.
They don't have the money forthat.
There's a lot of people thatwon't have access to running
(06:15):
water in their own compound.
So hand-washing is already amassive problem, but there are
hand washing stations out on thestreet in front of shops and in
front of the banks.
So they're pushing that.
They've tried to get people towear face masks when they go
out.
They've banned meetings of morethan four.
People have said that if you'retraveling in public transport,
(06:37):
the half the seats have to beempty.
So they are trying to sloweverything down.
A lot of government offices areclosed or semi-closed.
Some businesses have beenadvised to sort of slow down.
Churches and mosques have beenshut.
Which is an incredible thing.
As you understand, people hereare very devout.
Schools are closed as well andthey have no facility to provide
(07:02):
online education for t heirstudents.
Talking to somebody from theministry of education in a
meeting the other day, Iunderstand that the government
is considering that everybodywill just, once covid has gone,
they will restart the last year.
So everybody will go back a yeareffectively or go back to where
(07:24):
they were in September, 2019 andrestart that year.
That will be from primary allthe way through to university.
Kelley Lynch (07:34):
Wow.
That's quite something.
Are people accepting thingsreasonably easily or?
Mark Chapman (07:41):
Yeah, I think there's a good number of people
that are scared.
And that number is growing.
As stories get passed aroundinformation is spread.
We have a very good minister ofhealth.
She's been posting regularly onFacebook and other sources.
Business leaders and oppositionparties and politicians have all
(08:03):
come together to support thevery sensible measures really
that the government is takinghere.
So at the moment everybody'ssort of pulling together.
Kelley Lynch (08:24):
One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is
because probably more thananybody, I would imagine your
business has been severelyimpacted.
Mark Chapman (08:33):
Kelley, as you know, I've been 20 years
developing community-basedtourism.
We have built a number of guesthouses across mountains in the
North of Ethiopia and theseguest houses, I say we, but
we've funded the communities tobuild simple accommodation.
(08:54):
And then our guests walk fromguest house to guest house.
55% of the income stays with thecommunities.
25% goes to the guides and wetake 20%.
My company Tesfa tours are doingthe marketing and booking.
So it is a philanthropicexercise, but of course, since
(09:17):
April we've had no clients atall.
So we're quite lucky in a waybecause the virus impacted us
after our high season, which wasOctober, November, December,
January, but still, this is,this is a long period without
any income.
If some people are forecastsinternational flights increase
(09:38):
hugely in cost and people are ina massive recession through
Europe and America and our otherclient countries.
Then we could find we've gotvery, very few guests and it's
going to become quite a struggleto keep things together.
Kelley Lynch (09:58):
When I first reached out to you about doing
the podcast, you mentioned oneof the things that have been on
your mind most was your childrenand what this means for them.
Do you want to talk about that?
Mark Chapman (10:14):
Yeah.
Well, I've got four kids,Kelley, as you know, the oldest,
my daughter, 18 years old goingto be 19 next week is studying
development at university.
And my youngest son is in yearone at the British school here.
He's five years old.
So, I'm extremely concernedabout what future is left for
(10:34):
them.
I'm coming up 55.
So, you know, I'm on the otherside of the curve and I've had
the great fortune to see a lotof biodiversity, go to some
amazing places.
I was actually thinking thatmaybe I should take my kids to
Kenya and show them a bit of thewildlife there while it's still
(10:57):
there.
Because five years from nowwhat's going to be left there?
What's the situation going tobe?
So I'm extremely concerned.
Coming into COVID-19 we've seenthe pause button get pressed.
Suddenly skies have clearedcanals in Venice by all accounts
(11:18):
h ave cleaned up and thepollution has reduced
enormously.
So we have a kind of goldenopportunity to decide how we
restart this.
And if we leave it to Trump andJohnson, and all of these people
to make the decisions for us, bythe time my kids are starting
(11:42):
families, we're going to befighting a lot worse disasters
then the coronavirus withflooding and forest fires and
droughts, huge tension betweenthose countries that have, a nd
those countries that have not.
Coastlines being i nundated.
Populations, moving it's scary,scary stuff.
(12:05):
And we just can't seem to reactto it in the way that needs to
be done then and change thepriorities.
So when you said let's have achat about these things.
I had a long talk with my oldestkids, my teenagers about how do
we get everybody linked in tostart having a conversation?
(12:28):
And that it's really, we failed.
I mean, my generation has failedto make the changes and they
need to recognize that we haveto have a revolution.
I mean, some total change in theway that economics is viewed and
the value given to profit.
(12:48):
The value given to making money.
T he value given to producingmore and more stuff that half
the time we don't really need.
I t was a conversation that wenton w ell i nto the night.
But, somehow I think we have to,before these lockdowns end, w
(13:09):
hile families a re together, wehave to try to get grasp the,
the concept a nd changepoliticians' minds.
I really don't know how we goabout doing that, but that seems
to me, yeah, the biggestchallenge that we all face, it's
not COVID-19.
(13:30):
COVID-19 will pass.
People will die.
We will all lose people we know,very sadly and companies will go
bust and unemployment'srocketing through the roof.
We know all of this.
People are going to suffer, butthings will pick up again.
(13:50):
The virus will go and life willresume.
But the real challenge is how dowe make it resume in a way that
that gives the planet a chanceto recover from all of this
terrible human activity over thelast 50 years, The rain patterns
(14:25):
are changing.
It should be really dry fromearly October through late
December.
But in the last few years, everyyear, there's a period of two
weeks of quite heavy rain, whichdoes damage to the harvest
that's coming in.
(14:46):
My fear is that in a comingyear, we're going to lose the
rainy season and it's not goingto come properly.
And because life is so much onthe edge for so many of these
people, that has an impact andnumbers are huge with 110
million in Ethiopia.
There's millions of farmers thatcan't survive the whole year
(15:08):
without food aid.
So there's a permanent foodinsecurity issue.
And then every year, one ofthese areas gets impacted and
then there's another five or 10million people that need
feeding.
So that's a constant hair findas weather patterns get more and
more changed.
(15:29):
Of course, Ethiopia is going toget more and more problems.
Kelley Lynch (15:43):
So when we start talking about things, going back
to quote unquote normal, what doyou think about that?
Mark Chapman (15:53):
Of course, I'm in tourism and, and one of the
ironies is tourism relies onpeople flying.
People, aren't going to come toEthiopia unless they jump on a
flight from Europe or the Statesor wherever.
So, we all recognize that flyingis bad for the environment.
And I've had prior to COVID-19,I was having talks with a very
(16:17):
interesting guy who runsresponsible travel.com, Justin
Francis, about whether we shouldeven be in this business., Is
this the right thing to bedoing?
And he was talking about thefact that people's travel
patterns need to change.
They need to travel for longertrips and make more out of those
(16:39):
trips so that the trips need tobe more responsible while
they're out there.
So instead of people coming fora week to 10 days, people should
be coming for two weeks to threeweeks.
While in country, they should bethinking about how they're
spending the money and howthat's impacting on local
people.
So I accept that travel shouldbecome something that is a
(17:04):
little bit more expensivebecause you're going to have to
spend more on flights.
And instead of taking lots oflittle short breaks, people
should put the one trip a yearwhere you go off for longer to a
country that needs theirsupport.
Because without tourism, a lotof developing countries would be
economically really challenged.
I mean, Ethiopia has a fairlysmall tourism industry- perhaps
(17:28):
50,000 tourists a year.
So it's a very small n umber it's really, but that's vital to
a huge number of people inGondar, in Lalibela i n the
Simien mountains.
One of the cooks that I workwith in the Simien mountains
sent me text messages, did theysaying I have a work for a
couple of months.
(17:48):
I've got no money f or myfamily.
Can you help me?
So without tourists coming,there's going to be a massive
economic hit on what is a fairlygreen industry in some respects.
So it will be a pity if peopledon't fly at all.
But I think people's consumptionof holidays has to change.
(18:10):
My business is focused oncommunity tourism, which is the
lowest possible carbon impactwalking from village to village.
So I'm going to be putting outsome suggested trips on our
website, which will be very lowcarbon holidays.
And then when you're staying atthese community guests house,
your carbon footprint is waylower than it would be back at
(18:33):
home.
And yet you're putting moneyinto local farmers pockets,
which is much needed.
So, I think there is an argumentthat the kind of tourism that
I'm doing has a strong placewithin a brave new world where
we're trying to do things tobenefit the poorer section of
(18:56):
the world.
Trying to learn more about themand trying to minimize our
carbon footprint.
Kelley Lynch (19:12):
Some people say that the system, I suppose we
could say whether it'scorporations or governments, are
really too powerful for us tomake any of these kinds of
changes you're talking about,particularly with the
environment.
What do you think about that?
Mark Chapman (19:32):
Yeah, I think, I think that's the reason why we
haven't reacted to the climatechange problems as we've reacted
to COVID-19 because businesseshaven't been able to see that
it's in their interests tochange to a carbon free world a
(19:54):
low consumption world from thatwe've got to change patterns of
consumption so that it's not allabout getting the latest thing,
how much you spend, how much youmake.
We've got to change the valuesof the world, but it doesn't
suit Amazon.
It doesn't suit BP and all thebig corporations around the
(20:14):
world to do that.
And they have a massive lobby.
They control the media thatthese corporations can very
easily put information out thereand support it and create this
counter movement that's thinkingthat this is all a hoax that
it's all going to change.
We don't have to listen to itand I can aspire to get the new
(20:37):
65 inch TV that makes you a cupof tea in the morning and all
the other stuff.
The pressure is there for youjust to buy the next of, of kit
and stuff and the fancy newshoes.
And how do we change that?
What I came back to talking withmy kids was the whole me too
campaign.
(20:59):
And that something like thatneeds to sweep through something
that captures the, a high enoughpercentage of young people
between the ages of 16 and 26.
That sort of technically savvy,they're always on Instagram,
they're always posting andstuff, and they don't have
(21:20):
mortgages.
They don't have to pay theirkids' school fees yet.
They're the ones who areindependent that can shoot from
the hip and move fast andchange.
It's much harder when yourealize you've got to pay all
these school fees.
You've got to make sure yourkids are funded at university
and you've got mortgage to payon your house.
(21:42):
All of these things force you tosort of stay on the path that's
been traveled before, but thatyounger generation can be the
revolutionaries and take us intonew territory.
Kelley Lynch (21:55):
Coming out of this, you have the magic wand
and say, I want to change, or Iwant to change these two or
three things going forward.
What would those be and why?
Mark Chapman (22:09):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, you've got to get to theheart of the problems or how
you've got to change the valuethat is given to making a
profit.
The drive to be not justprofitable but then make more,
(22:32):
increase your dividends,increase your profit.
I mean, I often wonder what isit that drives wealthy people to
become even wealthier.
I mean, once you've got the nicecar or you've got the second
home and you've got the privatejet and you've got all the
stupid stuff that you surroundyourself with, there comes a
(22:54):
point where you can't, you justcan't spend it.
You end up with cars andmotorbikes in garages under
wraps and houses you never visitand planes you never fly.
So what is it that's drivingpeople to keep making money.
It's the equation of money andpower.
Isn't it?
It's if you've got more money,you're more powerful.
(23:15):
And if you've got more money,again, you're more powerful than
any other guy.
And it's it's that, that we needto, we need to somehow change.
You have this equation betweenmaking money and success.
That equation has to be brokensomehow.
And the success in your lifeshould not be about the wealth.
(23:40):
It should be about spreadinggoodness, spreading love,
spreading happiness to thepeople around you.
Sometimes when I go trekking upin the mountains, I get to
somewhere really beautiful andit's a moving experience.
It's sometimes I get tears in myeyes and just well up, just so
privileged to be there, such abeautiful place.
(24:03):
And it's so magical.
It's grounded.
It feels like it's the high youwere meant to get.
There's something spiritualabout it.
So it's a shift in our valuesfrom values where we're valuing
being part of the world asagainst doing something that's
(24:25):
damaging to it.
I think too many people say,look, there's nothing we can do.
I compost, or I separate out mytrash and my rubbish into the
different bits of recycling andso on.
(24:45):
And I take my shopping bag intothe supermarket.
We've got a bottle of water, sowe don't buy plastic bottles.
People do t heir little b its,but yet without government
coming on board, as in thelockdowns, now the government h
ave said, you have to do this.
You have to stop doing that.
Unless government w ould come onboard in the same way, many
(25:08):
people we speak to say I'vealmost given up.
What's t he p oint because we'regoing nowhere fast.
So we have to somehow be able tocome together and show that
there are enough of us and thatthere is a way forward to change
things.
And it's not one little thinglike we've got to stop plastic
(25:29):
bottles and we've got to dothis.
It's going to the heart it as wejust discussed and trying to
change the values of this world.
And now is an opportunity thatwe never thought we'd have.
We have to take this.
Now we have no time.
(25:49):
We don't have a year to wait andtalk about it and then do
something.
We have to actually startsomething today, tomorrow and
next week.
Kelley Lynch (26:12):
It had been almost a month and a half since I
talked to Mark, I wanted to callback and see what had changed.
So Mark, it's good to see youagain.
Mark Chapman (26:22):
Yeah.
Lovely to see you once more.
Kelley Lynch (26:24):
It's been five weeks now, since we talked, I
wondered if you could tell meabout what's changed.
Mark Chapman (26:31):
Yeah.
Well, around the middle of may,things were poodleing along with
the numbers very small.
Somewhere around the end of May,that started to change, but
we're still not in a situationwhere we have a large number of
deaths relative to thepopulation or a large number of
(26:53):
people getting sick.
There's a certain amount ofprecautions.
People are wearing face masks,but it's business as usual for
many, many people.
Kelley Lynch (27:02):
The last time we talked, I think you were
planning on planning about whatto do business wise and with a
Tesfa tours and everything else.
So how has your planningevolved?
Mark Chapman (27:16):
We're not going to have a full business model until
September, 2021.
We assume my main model isthough for the period, let's say
October, November, December isgoing to be to try to stimulate
domestic tourism.
As wealthy Ethiopians,moderately wealthy Ethiopians
(27:39):
and expats who are stuck herefor whatever reason, won't
really feel able to travelabroad, I'm hoping that we could
increase the a mounts of incountry travel we get from them.
And we can also present it tothem, on the one hand, this is a
great opportunity to exploreyour own country.
There, I'm particularly thinkingabout Ethiopians, who haven't
(28:03):
been to Lalibela and Gondar andthe Simiens.
This is a great opportunity forthem to see their own country.
Of course, that can't reallyhappen until it's the corner i s
turned probably on the otherside of the rainy season.
At the end of September,October, it should be possible
to say to people the virus is inretreat.
(28:24):
Why not come and visit theseplaces?
There's no tourists come and see it when it's empty and
support your national culturalheritage.
Kelley Lynch (28:31):
Speaking of that cultural heritage and, uh, the
people who live there, whatabout your communities?
What has happened with them?
How are they fairing?
Mark Chapman (28:45):
So I was having a chat with somebody in Lalibela.
He runs quite a famousrestaurant there that's been on
BBC, and he's been investing inAirbnb rooms and built a small
lodge.
So he's struggling.
So people like that that areinvested in the tourism industry
in a big way, are struggling.
(29:07):
For our communities, they're notin such a bad situation at this
point, because one of theconcepts of community tourism
was not to make these peopletotally dependent on tourism,
because we always knew somethingcould come up.
I mean, we never dreamt ofCOVID-19, but it Ebola was
creating problems in other partsof Africa.
(29:29):
And had it got more serious inKenya and Uganda, it would have
impacted tourism more than itdid in Ethiopia.
We were always suspecting aterrorist case might harm
tourism in Ethiopia as well.
So, it was important to try tomake sure that community tourism
(29:52):
didn't mean that thesecommunities were totally
dependent for everything ontourism.
It's supposed to be an extraincome that helps them do other
things.
And at the moment farmingactivities are carrying on.
Farmers are selling theirproduce in markets and food is
moving around.
So traders are buying food fromfarmers, grain, livestock, and
(30:17):
what have you.
So I think at least untilSeptember, we should be okay,
but we I'm planning to try toprovide a bit of money to some
of the communities who are alittle bit more insecure.
They haven't had that muchtourism.
The ones that have had 10 yearsof solid tourism can weather the
storm.
The ones that have had, it'sbeen a bit iffy and hasn't been
(30:40):
going for so many years.
Those will need a little bitmore financial support in the
coming months,
Kelley Lynch (30:47):
Looking forward.
Have you had any other thoughtsabout where tourism might
ultimately head as a result ofall of this?
Mark Chapman (30:56):
As you know, I'm very, very concerned about the
global environment, globalwarming climate change and these
issues.
And I think these are going tointerplay more and more with
tourism, which we'll haveperhaps two effects, one, it
will stop some people traveling.
They won't want to take flights.
Also it's going to damage theirincome.
(31:18):
So some people won't be able totravel, but those people that do
travel, an increasing proportionof them will look to travel in a
more sustainable way.
I don't see travel stopping atthis point.
I think people will still wantto travel.
I was just reading recently someof the reviews from some of the
(31:40):
clients over the last year.
They've emailed me and said,look, can we do anything to
help?
The guides, the communities werefantastic.
It was a moving experience forus to visit these communities
and we want to give something inthis difficult time.
That reminds me of how importantthis tourism is.
If we can change people'soutlook and give people
(32:03):
something special from thevisits to these communities, it
justifies the tourism.
It justifies what we're doing inthis changing and difficult
world.
Kelley Lynch (32:15):
So what's, I mean, what's the value of this, that
that might make it so much moreworthwhile to spend that money
and to spend that time and to,to spend that carbon?
Mark Chapman (32:26):
A trip to Ethiopia is always going to be special.
I think because it's such adifferent country from, one,
what people expect it to be andsecondly, from anywhere else in
the world.
It really does have its ownunique place.
And then when you go up into themountains where we've set up
these community guest houses andyou stay with these local
(32:47):
farmers who are some of thepoorest people on the planet in
GDP terms, in terms of theassets they've got: phones,
clothes, houses, tools, cars.
But when you stay there as aguest of these farmers and you,
(33:07):
you spend a bit of time withthem.
They're so ready to smile andready to enjoy the moment and so
happy to have you there as theirguest.
It doesn't feel like an unequalinteraction.
As a tourist there, you'repaying them a reasonable amount
(33:27):
of money to get a lovely serviceand to actually join their lives
in some kind of way for a periodof days.
And for many, many of ourguests, this is the highlight of
their trip in Ethiopia, despitevisits to the Simien national
park and a beautiful lodge andthe Lalibela churches, which are
(33:49):
one of the wonders of the world.
Staying with these farmers inthis almost, some people
describe it as a sort ofbiblical landscape with the
flocks of sheep and herds ofcattle and a farmer with a white
cotton shawl draped over him.
Churches here and there.
(34:10):
Markets that they head to.
And the rhythm of life isgoverned by the church and the
market and the community events,weddings, and funerals, and
other events within thecommunity.
And life slows down to thatlevel.
I think it connects to how wefeel we lived in some kind of a
(34:30):
time before all of this stuffthat we've got in our lives now
that clutters our lives.
And it takes us to a place whereyou can imagine you've thrown
out the mobile phone and thelaptop and the internet and
you're living simply in thehours that the daylight gives
you.
You go to bed in the eveningwith a little bit of drumming
(34:51):
and little bit of singing and abeer and a good wholesome meal
in your stomach.
Wake up the next morning to abeautiful dawn.
You see gelada baboons.
You see a vulture or alammergeier or an Eagle cruise
along on the thermals, and youcouldn't want to be anywhere
else in the world at thatmoment.
(35:12):
It's very, very special.
Kelley Lynch (35:14):
Hearing you describe it.
It makes me really missEthiopia.
Yes, people are materially poor,but so rich in so many other
ways, things that we have lostor lost sight of.
And like you said, the rhythmsof life that's lived within the
(35:34):
whole context of a community andthe natural world.
It's a totally differentexperience.
Mark Chapman (35:42):
That's right.
Yeah.
And I think at the crossroadsthat we're at now, where we have
to make these decisions aboutlifestyle to spend some days out
there having a detox experiencewhere you realize what's really
important.
And these people who are really,they don't know how they're
(36:02):
going to put food on their tablefor the next a few months,
depending on the time of year,they may be in a shortage.
But if they've got food, they'llbring you a handful of beans
from the field for you to eat asyou walk past.
If you drop in at somebody'shouse, they'll make coffee for
you.
They don't think as we do, Idon't have enough food for my
(36:23):
kids and my kids' education andthe wedding and the, this, and
the, that.
That isn't coming into thattheir equation at all.
They're just living for today.
And if they've got, they shareand everyone shares together.
And yes, it's something we needto learn from.
And I think that's why it makesit so special and where it
really affects the people thatcome out on these trips.
(36:44):
Some of them are completelyblown away, but it affects
everyone slightly differently,depending on where they are in
their own life and how open theyare to the experience.
It's not forced upon anyone.
Some people go through that andtheir big focus is the trekking.
But for most people, they get anawful lot from this community
interaction.
Kelley Lynch (37:05):
If you're going to spend your money and you're
gonna spend your carbon, that'swhere I would spend it.
Mark Chapman (37:13):
Yeah.
I think that's how people havegot to start thinking now.
Whether they're traveling toEthiopia or some other country,
when you go there spend yourcarbon wisely.
Kelley Lynch (37:25):
indeed.
I'm really looking forward tohearing that your September
through January season, it's agreat success.
I.
Mark Chapman (37:38):
I hope so.
Even that's a great thingbecause we can bring that same
spirit we're talking about tothe elites in Ethiopia who need
it.
Some of them are Americandiaspora Ethiopians and they've
come back with a lot of thatmaterialistic idea of life that
(37:59):
everyone in the West gets andthey don't travel in their own
country.
They'll prefer to go to Dubai oroff to the West.
So, this could be a greatopportunity to awaken something
amongst some of them.
Kelley Lynch (38:14):
Fantastic.
It's like coronavirusopportunities.
They're kind of sprinkled aroundout there.
Not always easy to see it first.
I'm glad you found it.
Well, Mark, thank you so much.
Hey, that was a real pleasure,Kelly.
And we'll talk soon.
(38:36):
How are you guys?
Cindy Sealls (38:37):
Good?
How are you doing good.
Sound good.
Kelley Lynch (38:41):
Tanvir, you're alive?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvi (38:42):
Definitely alive.
And as you keep saying, that's agood thing.
Kelley Lynch (38:49):
So, I've been going through all of the hours
and hours of audio that we'verecorded just to fill this slot.
And I have to say, I'm trying tofind some note of positivity in
(39:09):
all of this, and I'm reallystruggling because there are
these strong parallels betweenhow we've handled COVID and how
we're handling global warming.
Basically, there's this largecohort of people who don't
believe in science.
The parallel with global warmingis clear and that it's like, is
(39:33):
the virus even real?
We can't even agree on that.
And same thing goes for globalwarming.
And then you've got this aspectof preparation and we had time
to prepare, but nothing wasdone.
You need government leadershipthat has been what is missing.
(39:56):
That's another parallel.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (39:58):
With t he pandemic, all the countries in
the world had a t ime that theycould actually prepare
themselves for this, but theythought this is not going to
impact me.
Or this is not coming for me.
Same thing with the climatechange.
Everyone is thinking, this isnot my problem.
It's Bangladesh's problem.
(40:19):
People in Europe, people in theUS or Western world is thinking,
this is a third world problem.
Let them deal with it.
Kelley Lynch (40:26):
It is coming from the U S as well, whether we
believe it or not.
And I think we've had a chanceto see that during the pandemic,
we've been presented with a veryclear picture of how fragile
many of our systems are,including our food supply.
That's something so many of ushave seen firsthand during the
pandemic.
You go to the grocery store andthere's nothing on the shelves.
Cindy Sealls (40:49):
If you really think deeply About what could
happen with global warming, Imean, it panics you and you,
you, you know, it's like asituation where somebody comes
up to you with a gun and eitheryou freeze or you react.
I think a lot of us are frozen.
Kelley Lynch (41:05):
I'm really afraid that nobody's going to even be
with us still, that everybody'sgoing to have dropped off
because this whole thing seemsso negative.
It's such a downer.
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (41:19):
Don't lose hope, guys.
I'm not the exactly right.
Person to talk about the hole,but you're the one who's going
to bring hope this time.
Yeah.
This time it'll be me.
I have worked in anenvironmental project for five
years in Bangladesh.
I have seen what we have done tothe environment.
(41:42):
And I have seen the flip side ofit as well.
When we planted as areforestation about 1.2 million
trees, we saw birds come back,bees come back.
And when we protected a patch ofthe beach, where the rare
(42:06):
turtles hatch, they nest andthey hatch there.
And you know, the joy of seeingthem go back to the sea.
It's absolutely amazing.
And that actually gives us hopebecause we can destroy it, but
(42:26):
we also can protect it.
Just look at the lockdown periodbecause of the dust and the
pollution, it's been 30 or 40years since I saw a rainbow in
the sky in Dhaka.
During this lockdown, weactually had a rainbow, 180
(42:48):
degree rainbow.
And the last two months, once weactually woke up, with the sound
of the birds.
I would say, this is the silverlining.
Kelley Lynch (43:00):
You're right.
Without hope, what have we gotto get up for in the morning?
Obaidul Fattah Tanvir (43:05):
And ouf love for this life, that keeps
us going.
Cindy Sealls (43:19):
Did you know there's another global pandemic
that's been going on forthousands of years?
Kelley Lynch (43:25):
Thousands?
What's that?
Cindy Sealls (43:27):
Thousands, tuberculosis,
Kelley Lynch (43:30):
Oh man.
I had no idea.
Tuberculosis was a pandemic.
Cindy Sealls (43:37):
Yup.
And affects millions of peopleevery year and kills over a
million people every year.
I just remember that they calledit consumption.
They would say, what did theydie out?
And they died of consumption,but maybe we'll die of a
different kind of consumption.
It looks like we are going todie of a different type of
(43:58):
consumption.
But one thing we can consume andit's not going to hurt us,
actually, it will help us.
And that is if people consumethis podcast,
Kelley Lynch (44:09):
Bad news, I did read that we are actually
contributing to climate changeevery time you search on a
search engine.
Cindy Sealls (44:20):
That's why they should subscribe.
And they don't have to searchpops right into your phone or
your computer, your iPad.
You're saving the world.
They listening to us and savingthe world at the same time.
Kelley Lynch (44:34):
I know there are major flaws with this logic, but
I'm going to go with thatbecause I liked that idea.
Cindy Sealls (44:40):
Well, you just said it's when they search.
Kelley Lynch (44:42):
Well, you're accessing stuff anyway.
I'm not even gonna go there, butyou know what I like what you
said, you're saving the worldevery time you listen to our
podcast.
Cindy Sealls (44:54):
When you listen, when you subscribe, see, there
you've got to subscribe and thenyou don't have to search and
you're saving the planet andyou're learning something.
And hopefully you're sharing uswith other folks and you tell
them to subscribe so they cansave the planet.
Kelley Lynch (45:12):
I love it.
All right, go do it.
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