March 18, 2025 • 46 mins
Discovering your authentic self can be a lifelong journey – one that becomes even more challenging when you lack the language to describe who you are. For author Arden Coutts, growing up in rural Nebraska meant navigating feelings of difference without understanding their source, eventually finding expression through poetry and later through crafting queer romantic suspense novels.
Arden takes us through their evolution from writing sad poems as a child to publishing a trilogy of action-packed queer romances that they lovingly describe as "80s action movies, but gay." Their series – Fall Into Midnight, Fall Into Me, and We All Fall – follows different couples across the gender and sexuality spectrum as they battle both internal demons and an external mafia threat.
The conversation delves into Arden's journey of self-discovery – from identifying as bisexual in high school to embracing their identity as transmasc non-binary in adulthood. They share candid insights about family reactions, the challenges of finding community, and their experiences navigating relationships as someone whose gender presentation often confuses potential partners.
Ready to dive into Arden's world of queer romantic suspense? Find their books at ardencoutts.com or on Amazon, and join a community that celebrates authentic representation across the spectrum of gender and sexuality.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Arden Counts crafts queer romantic suspense novels
that delve deep into thecomplexities of love and
self-discovery as a trans,non-binary individual.
Arden uses their ownexperiences and those of their
peers to enhance their work.
In their varied and diversewriting, their goal is to share
the queer experience withreaders, no matter their gender
(00:21):
identity or sexual orientation.
Readers, no matter their genderidentity or sexual orientation.
It's Arden's goal to have theirwriting act as a launching pad
to build a community aroundqueer issues and identities.
Arden wishes to fill the gap inthe publishing industry that
exists for people who realizetheir sexuality and gender later
in life.
Through this community, arden'sgoal is to give readers hope
(00:42):
that they can find love even asthey navigate their journeys.
Arden's goal is to give readershope that they can find love
even as they navigate theirjourneys.
Arden's work also aims toencourage readers to think
differently about their ownperceptions, perspectives and
assumptions.
Here's our conversation.
Welcome, arden.
Thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Arden.
Before we get started, can youlet us know what your pronouns
are?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh, absolutely, I use they, them pronouns Okay great.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So you actually are the second novelist we've had on
.
The one person we had doesgraphic novels, so I'm excited
to hear about your twist onthings.
His was like a historicalsci-fi twist on things, yeah, so
I'll have to definitely connectyou to your.
But so you write queer romanticsuspense novels focusing on
(01:35):
love and self-discovery.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yes, I like to say that I write.
They're like eighties actionmovies, but gay.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, all right, so tell us about what you have
recently published.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, I have been working on a trilogy for the
last two years, with the firstbook coming out last year and
that was Fall Into Midnight, andthen this year I published
books two and three of thatseries, which are Fall Into Me.
That came out in June of 2024.
And the last book in thetrilogy we All Fall just came
(02:18):
out, november 12th.
Congratulations I amself-published in the author.
It has been a journey what gotyou into writing?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
have you always been interested in in in writing or
the arts in some form?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
oh yeah, absolutely.
I grew up with a mother thatwas a very avid reader and kind
of made sure that all of us kidshad an appreciation for books,
would drop us off at the libraryas our babysitter kind of
situation.
So I grew up reading and wasalso a very sad and depressed
(03:00):
child.
So I turned to poetry andwriting to get my feelings out
and express what I was feeling.
And it started back when I waseight-ish and I have been
writing ever since but didn'ttake the leap into publishing
until 2022 to 2023.
(03:24):
So it took me a while to getthere, but I finally took the
leap okay, oh, you said you were.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I have to ask you said you were as a child you
were sad and depressed.
What contributed to that?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
oh, so many things.
I grew up in a very ruralnebraska, like north central
Nebraska more cows than peopletype of situation and mental
health, like sexuality andgender conversations were
non-existent.
Especially during that time aswell, like in the 80s and 90s,
(04:02):
and it being in Nebraska, beingbeing Nebraska, those
conversations weren't had and Igrew up with this sense of not
belonging anywhere and justbeing like so desperately alone
and that really impacted mymental health because I felt
(04:23):
like I didn't belong but Ididn't know why I didn't belong
or what was causing thosefeelings.
So, working out through poetry,just really sad poems.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
So you didn't.
You felt like you weredifferent, but you didn't know
how or why or to what extent.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Initially, yeah, and I think it was primarily because
I didn't have the languageright, because no one was like I
always.
I grew up with three brothersand I always thought of myself
as one of the boys and didn'tknow that I wasn't until I got a
(05:05):
little older and I think, if Ihave the language now to be like
(05:30):
, okay, I'm transmasc,non-binary, that is who I am now
, but it took me a long time.
It has been a journey throughmany different um, I don't know,
I guess, like definitions ofmyself okay, yeah, or then
during the art as a writer.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
You mentioned about your childhood.
A lot is are there anycharacter in any of those novels
, that kind of your childhood?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
oh, that is a great question.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think most of the characters represent me through
probably my 20s and 30s where Iwas still figuring out who I was
and struggling withself-confidence and just finding
that confidence to be who I amand who I want to be.
(06:27):
Especially in the first book,fall Into Midnight, the two main
characters, gray and Hannah.
Gray is this gender-fluid, veryconfident, capable character
and Hannah is a shy, introvertedcharacter and those are very
much two parts of who I am andin the end they become one and
are this wonderful couple ofconfidence and like caring and
(06:52):
empathy and that's definitelykind of my journey of finding
myself in a book that one'sdefinitely special to me.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So your characters.
So it's a trilogy, so are thesame two characters in each of
the books.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Ooh, they did it fun.
They did it in kind of a funway, I think.
So each book is told from adifferent couple's point of view
.
Okay, but the same charactersare in all three books.
So book one and the storylineis overarching throughout each
book, so you have to read allthree to get the full story.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
But book one is Hannah and Gray, and then book
two are Key and Marcus andthey're a hetero couple, and
then book three is James andLuke.
So we get the whole spectrum ofrelationships and different
issues that they encounter, buttheir goal throughout all three
(07:59):
books are to overcome the mafiaboss that is causing all the
issues.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Okay, I like it.
You're being very inclusivewhen you write your novels, not
just being on one end of thespectrum, so I really like that
yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So there is a protagonist and you are telling
the story of their interactionwith the mafia boss from
different couples perspectives,while at the same time you are
telling about some relationshipissues that they have going on
as well yeah, there's definitelyoh, I'm like I don't know if I
(08:40):
want to call them relationshipissues.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Definitely a lot of the issues in the books are
caused by our protagonist, okay,but the couple, especially Key
and Marcus, because Marcus goesthrough some really traumatizing
events and Key has to recognizethat he's been through these
things and has a little PTSDthere's some mental health
(09:04):
struggles going on there and hasto overcome her desire to be
almost too caring towards himand has to back off a little bit
until he's ready for her tomove at at the pace that he's
ready for.
So I also like to flip a littlebit of the gender role that you
would normally see in books,like you'd normally see the male
(09:26):
character as the hero that'sprotecting the damsel in
distress and I don't go for that, I've worked with it.
So Key is definitely the badassin that book and is caring for
Marcus and making sure that he'sokay and nursing him back to
health.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Okay, very cool, he's okay.
And nursing him back to health?
Okay, very cool.
So do any other relationshipsthat you have observed um inform
the characters in the novel?
So friends, family, anythinglike that?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
oh yeah, another great question.
Oh, these are wonderfulquestions.
I think a lot of it is my ownexperiences and the things that
I desire.
So I explore a lot of platonicrelationships as well, like the
different types of relationshipsthat you could have.
(10:19):
You have your like yourco-workers, that you're like
close to right but you're maybenot like as close to them as you
are with your friends.
You have like really close,intimate, platonic relationships
with people.
Then you have your intimaterelationships with people, and
so I explore that whole realmand the different types of
(10:40):
partnerships, and that'ssomething that comes from my own
desire to have those types ofrelationships.
I'm a very kind of introvertedperson and it's hard for me to
build those things.
Writing has been a way for meto explore what that would be
like and how I envision thoserelationships to be.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I like.
So you mentioned that youdidn't actually.
Actually, I want to back upbecause you said you identify as
trans mask non-binary.
What exactly did that mean?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yes, I love and hate this question at the same time.
So this is this is my owndefinition of it but but
non-binary.
I don't identify as female ormale, but I trend towards
masculine.
I have I prefer to be seen asmore male than female physically
(11:40):
, if that makes sense yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Do you feel more internally that you have more
masculine or more tradition?
What are considered moretraditionally masculine traits?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
yeah, absolutely.
But I also I'm very adamantabout it's like a catch-22.
Like I want to be seen as male,but I don't want to be seen as
a man, so like I have a littletorn there because there's a lot
of I don't see myself as a man,but I have masculine energy.
(12:15):
Just make sure we put it yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
And you also.
So, yeah, I agree, we all havemasculine and feminine energy
internally and that can getdisplayed in our interactions
with our partners, ourinteractions with the world, but
some people don't.
That happens in varying degrees.
That can happen based on whoyou're interacting with.
You may have more feminine,express yourself more in a more
(12:42):
feminine way, depending on whoyou're interacting with, for
various reasons, and sometimesthose things are separate from
our gender identity or ourgender expression.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
But sometimes people like for those things to
coincide or to be or how I feelinternally be represented
externally yes, I, oh sorry Iwas gonna say I really
appreciate that you mentionedthat energy can shift depending
on who you're communicating withand interacting with, because
(13:14):
that's something I've noticedabout myself and I'm always like
, oh my gosh, does that mean I'mnot like authentic, does that
mean I'm not really transmasc?
And so I've had a lot ofinternal struggle trying to
understand interaction and theenergy that I put out.
(13:36):
But yeah, I don't know.
That just makes me feel greatthat you mentioned that, because
I'm like okay, yeah, it is okayto put out different energy
based on who you're interactingwith.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, for sure.
I think that you being yourmost authentic self, if you are
able to, either consciously orsubconsciously, tap into that or
to allow that to be expressed,based on what that person is
bringing out in you, becausethere's a I suppose it's always
a balance.
There's yin and yang, right?
(14:08):
So if you are interacting withsomeone who is more feminine,
maybe that brings out morefemininity in you, and so you,
you tap into the quote-unquotegirliness a little bit more.
It could bring out the oppositein you, and it could have a lot
to do with the person, but alsoa lot to do with where you are
in life and what recently hashappened to you or what you
(14:28):
recently experienced, to makeyou say, oh, I want to show up
in this situation in a littlemore masculine way.
Or I'm feeling very I don'teven know the word besides
feminine, but I can think of itright now but I'm feeling very
and I hate to use other wordsbecause I don't want to say
emotional or in tune with myemotions, because that is not
(14:51):
necessarily uniquely feminine,although women, people who are
more feminine, tend to displaythose emotions in a more, in a
less aggressive way than whoconsider themselves more
masculine.
But yeah, it's to the pointthat I feel like people are
their most authentic selves whenthey're able to be more fluid
(15:14):
in how they express themselves.
They start in the person I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
yeah, that's a great way to to see that interaction.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
So, yeah, that's the beauty of the queer community,
right, you're able to expressyourself, and that's the beauty
of having a podcast that don'tjudge.
So be yourself, be your true,authentic self.
So I'm a person surrounding.
It's like a step back as well.
Where you met you, youidentified as trans, mass,
(15:45):
non-binary and you said growingup in Nebraska, where it's a
very rural state and people,most people, probably have no
idea what you're talking about.
How did you navigate that,especially with family and
friends?
When you talk about thosethings, what's your perception,
reflection?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
It was interesting.
I first came out as bi when Iwas in high school and that
didn't go well.
My mother and sister I don'treally remember how my father
reacted, which could mean whoknows what that means, but my
(16:24):
mom and sister had kids reactedvery poorly, and especially my
older sister, which isinteresting in and of itself.
But I also don't remember howmy brothers reacted.
I don't think they really cared, they were probably like
whatever.
But and then I got this journeywhere, when I got into college,
(16:46):
I was still saying I wasbisexual, but I was also leaning
more towards being pansexual orgender fluid as well.
But it took me until my 20s,when I was and I excluded my
parents and family from all ofthis.
I was just like.
I think it's going to be easierif they just think I'm like bi
(17:06):
or don't know anything.
Don't know anything.
But when I decided, when I was,finally I had this breakthrough
moment in therapy and I waslike I'm in the wrong body.
I've always been in the wrongbody and the reason I'm so sad
all the time, even into my 30s,is because I'm not who I'm
(17:27):
supposed to be and that helpedme make the decision to get top
surgery, so essentially like adouble mastectomy, and I was
like I have to tell my mom thatI'm having surgery, just in case
something happens to me.
It was more of a if I suddenlypass away from surgery or
(17:48):
something.
I would like for her to knowthat I was having surgery.
I had to have a conversationwith her about it and I didn't
tell her that I was trans.
I was just, yeah, I'm justhaving a breast reduction and
(18:16):
went that way and it's takensome time.
But I'm two and a half years, Ithink, into my transition and
being on testosterone and movingforward with everything.
And she is trying.
She's trying to use mypreferred name.
She's trying to get on boardwith it.
I think she still has a hardtime wrapping her brain around
it, but there is obvious effortthere of her trying and that's
(18:38):
really all I can hope for, kindof, at this point.
And my grandma who's 80, istotally on board.
And I was just like yes,grandma, thank you, you go
granny.
Yeah, I was like, thank you somuch.
She's like which name do youwant me to use?
Do you want me?
She's like which name do youwant me to use?
Do you want me to call you a?
Do you want me to call youarden?
Like just let me know.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
And I was just like yes, thank you, that's wonderful
we actually heard this severaltimes that grandparents have
been much more accepting, and Idon't know if it's an age thing
where people are just like fuckit, do whatever you want to do
we don don't care anymore.
Or what the situation is.
But yeah, we have heard this acouple of times.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So what's the support like in Nebraska?
Because I've never been toNebraska.
What's it getting into?
Do you have a community there?
I?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
assume there is community.
In some places in NebraskaMaybe the bigger places like
Lincoln and Omaha there'sprobably community.
I avoid Nebraska at all costs.
I haven't been home in quite awhile.
I have a lot of probably.
Some of it is probably just mebeing very scared because of
(19:53):
like.
When I was a kid I there was oneperson in our high school that
was out and people would throwrocks at him.
It was like not a safe spaceany way, shape or form,
especially if you were a gay man.
It was very.
It was a little, becausethere's like that perception of
(20:16):
like bi women.
Everyone's like oh yeah, you'remaking out with everybody, ooh,
and so it's a little moreacceptable.
But it was not a safe space andany means to be anything other
than the norm.
And I'm very cautious when I dogo home.
(20:39):
I think the last time I washome was maybe four years ago
and it was uncomfortable.
It's such a small town likeeverybody knows everybody's
business, and then you havesomeone walking around town.
That's different and it's yeah,it's just uncomfortable.
(21:01):
There's not a community in thetown that I grew up in.
I can definitely say that.
Where are you now?
I live in Durham, northCarolina.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Okay when you got there, because I hear Durham has
a pretty big LGBTQ pluscommunity.
When you got there first, howdid you feel?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I specifically moved here for the community because I
was living in a smaller townthat is a little bit south of
here and it got to the pointwhere I was like I gotta go.
It's been good for a couple ofyears but I need community, I
need to find my people.
So I moved to Durham and Ihaven't been here that long.
So I'm still like trying to tapinto the community, but like
(21:44):
I've joined like a queer sportsteam and like trying to get out
there and meet new people, whichis a little hard for me anyways
, just because I am a littleintroverted.
But so far everyone I've methas been insanely welcoming and
just fantastic.
So it's leaps and bounds aheadof where I have lived in the
(22:04):
past.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
So I want to go back.
You have three brothers and onesister.
Yes, okay in.
So I want to go back.
You have three brothers and onesister.
Uh, yes, okay.
So why?
What do you think it was?
Have you had this conversationwith your mom and your sister
about what was at this point?
It was just about you beingbisexual, and not even your
gender identity.
So do you have any idea whatwas difficult about that for
(22:30):
them?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I have no idea.
The thing that sticks out to me, the thing I remember the most
about that day, was my sister'sreaction, Because she said and
it's so stupid.
She said I hope you don't hiton me what.
And I was like you're my sisterso not gonna happen, so there
(23:01):
was.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It was just a really weird reaction, yeah were you
worried that, your brother,they're gonna hit on you.
But why would you even?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
I don't know yeah wouldn't even come from and I
remember just sitting across thetable for her and just being
like what the fuck?
That makes no sense at all andjust being like you're my sister
and you're also not my type, sodon't worry about it like the
overwhelming.
Yeah, I was just like what ishappening and I've had
(23:31):
conversations with my mom wherefor her it's a lot of she just
doesn't understand is what shesays like she just doesn't
understand and then in her mind,a lot of trans people
specifically do it for theattention.
Oh, they're just trying to getattention.
It's all about attention.
(23:52):
They just want to rub it inpeople's faces and have it be
attention.
And that's comments that shemade before she knew that I was
trans and I hang on to thosebecause I was like this is what
you said to me when you didn'tknow that I was trans.
So, do you think I'm doing thatfor attention?
But I will say that I am notbrave enough to have those
(24:17):
conversations with my mother,yeah, and I'm just don't know
how much energy I want to extendon it, especially anything with
like politics, yeah, and likegender stuff.
I'm just like I'm just gonnalet that be and if one day I'm
feeling real angsty and I got alot of energy, I might start a
(24:41):
conversation, but it's a lotyeah, it's not.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
All I say is it's not for people to understand it,
for people to respect otherpeople, for people to understand
and for people to respect otherpeople's new, other people's
lifestyle.
Everyone is different.
Because you're expecting me tounderstand your straight
lifestyle.
We want to have children, wantto be, not only have a straight
lifestyle, but want to be,sometimes even if you stay in an
(25:07):
abusive relationship.
Sometimes you're in arelationship with people that
you know you don't even love,but you expect people to accept
it or being even like even someof these pastors or something.
They're having extramaritalaffairs, but it's all.
And for you to understand isfor you to respect that not
(25:28):
everyone has the same, noteveryone has the same lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, and it's.
I'm going to use my youngersibling as another example,
because my youngest brother isin a relationship where they
have a very unique type ofrelationship, him and his
partner and my mom doesn't getit and therefore it's wrong
(25:53):
because it's not within the norm.
Like they have a very likeloving, platonic relationship.
There's not a lot of likephysicality between them and
that works really well for them,but it's not what a man and a
woman should be doing, like theyshould have a physical
relationship and that's thenormal, and so it doesn't make
(26:15):
sense.
I think if it's anythingoutside of the quote unquote
normal, it blows my mom's mindand she's just like I don't get
it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
It should be.
I'm sorry, exactly what goes onin the confines of people's
bedrooms.
it's not for-'s business exactlyand especially relatives,
because I don't ask you whaty'all are doing in the bedroom,
so it's exactly be wonderingabout what's going on in my
(26:43):
bedroom.
All that, yeah, matter is thatI'm with someone who respects me
and loves me and we have asolid, healthy relationship,
whatever that means for us.
That's all that should matter.
And it's fine to be curiousabout things, just to inform
yourself, just because you wantto know, but in judging it,
(27:03):
that's not okay exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And I've had more conversations about my brother's
relationship with my mother,trying to explain everything to
her, than I have about my ownidentity, because I don't know,
I'm like he's my younger brother, like he's in this wonderful
relationship that works so wellfor him and I'm like just let it
be, yeah, weird.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, exactly, I'm interested in your journey from
being bisexual to beingpansexual, what most people know
what pansexual is.
But, like just in case we havea new listener, somebody just a
baby gay just delving into beingwhat is pansexual pansexual.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Is that you are pansexual, is that you are
interested let me know if I likedefine this correctly but
interested in pretty much anyone, no matter the gender, or?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
so I think that's how I define it yeah, I, I wish I
could remember the quote, but Iused.
I love schitt's creed and Ithink it was david's character
was trying to explain to hepresents as very queer, he was
still in the heat's gay, butthen he liked this female
(28:21):
character and they actually didhave sex.
Actually she was so confusedthe next day and she and they
were shopping I think they weregoing for wine with the wine,
yes, and he said oh, sometimesshe was using the wine as a
metaphor and he said she said Iassumed you only liked red wine,
but now I guess maybe you likewhite wine.
And he's all time I did it.
(28:43):
I care what it was, I have togo back and watch it.
But essentially he said it'swhat's inside, yeah, the taste
of the wine.
I don't care about the, whetherit's red, white, whether it's a
chardonnay or a Shiraz orwhatever, what the shape of the
bottle is, whatever I, just ifit tastes good to me, then it
just tastes good to me exactlysentiment.
So yeah, that is spot on yes,that's how I would assign
(29:07):
pansexuals question.
Did you say, did you actuallyfeel like you were bi?
You felt like you liked, and biin a sense of I like men and
women as a pretty, in atraditional sense of male and
female.
Did you actually feel like that?
You liked both.
(29:28):
Or did you somehow have someexperience with someone who was
more gender fluid and realizedthat you, you know, it was more
than just the binary right?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
oh man, another great question.
I'm trying to think back to thetime and I definitely, when I
was identifying as bisexual, Ihad only the binary to reference
Reference, Thank you.
I was like what word do I wantto use here?
And then it's funny because Iwas living in a place that was
(30:04):
not queer friendly in any way,shape or form.
I was in Southern Mississippi.
It was like like not good and Ihad a lot of, but I look like
how I look now.
I had short hair and likepiercings and tattoos and I'd go
(30:24):
into bars and people come up tome and be like you must be an
aging lesbian.
They thought how I looked and Iwould be like this is what it
takes.
You got me.
If we're going solely on looks,then sure, and it was just like
a weird place.
But that was when I was likeyeah, I think I'm pansexual and
I don't know if it was a personor just realizing that I didn't
(30:51):
care if someone was trans orgender fluid or something
outside of the binary.
And I remember we were at thisbar with my coworkers and I was
just finally like I'm a badsexual geek?
It's not.
They were like cool.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Party.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, that's fine, no , no, no, I'm dirty.
Oh, like cool already.
Yeah, that's fine, no, no, I'mnot going to.
I've had some really badexperiences with like co-workers
and people I've lived with likenot taking things well and I'm
always like I'm going to get toknow people for two years, two
or three years before I likeshare any type of information
about myself, especially if I'mworking with them.
(31:34):
And that was about the two anda half or three year mark when I
was finally like okay, guys,this is who I really am, this is
what's up, and they were alllike, yeah, look, we know I'm
like okay, so we're all on thesame page.
But yeah, I don't think therewas a specific person or
experience though that thatinfluenced that.
(31:56):
Okay, just who you are.
Yeah, I think it goes back towhat I was saying about having
the right vocabulary.
I think during that time, likeas more definitions, I guess,
have become more accessible andI've been able to research and
(32:16):
learn more, I'm like, oh, thisfits better, this makes more
sense to me than what I waspreviously defining myself as or
whatever.
So, as time has moved on andlike, more definitions have come
out or become more I want tosay normal, but like in the
(32:37):
conversation, in the vocabulary,more I've been able to really,
like, define myself.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Have you.
It sounds like you.
It's great that you have acommunity of friends that are
open and accepting.
Have you had any difficultiescommunicating that to intimate
partners?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yes, especially when I'm just first getting to know
people, it's I'm.
If it's a male partner, thatcan be an interesting
(33:21):
conversation.
I've had some really greatconversations where it's just us
talking about, okay, like, whatare your preferences?
These are mine, I, this is howI identify, just being open
about it, and I've been lucky inthat a lot of the individuals
that I have had relationshipswith have been very open with it
and, yeah, it's beeninteresting.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Okay, yeah, unfortunately there are still
some biases within the community.
Yes, so sometimes people have ahard time.
I'll say this as a whole thecommunity may be pretty
(34:07):
accepting, but your individualbiases come in when you're
actually in relation withsomeone, and so sometimes it's
hard for people to accept orunderstand people who aren't
strictly gay or strictly lesbian.
We don't have a preference forone specific gender type yeah
(34:29):
understand, and it's hard forthem to feel secure with that
because they just they.
But people like to know what toexpect.
And if you like a lot ofdifferent, if you just, if
you're really in it for thespirit, then you could like
anybody, and so I don't know who.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I'm comfortable with you being around because you
might like them too, it's beenan interesting experience going
like out to like clubs or barsor whatever, because in the day
I presented very feminine, likeI had really long hair, I still
had breasts, like I was veryfeminine.
(35:05):
And since I've started mytransition I always I feel like
I'm somewhere in between, whichis what I want.
Like I want to be just likeandrogynous and, yeah, just
somewhere in the middle.
But where that causes issues isI think it confuses a lot of
(35:28):
people, especially folks thatdon't know me.
If I'm out at a club, somewomen might be like, oh, that's
a man, and some women might belike, oh, that's a man, and some
men might be like, oh, that's awoman, and so in the end nobody
approaches me so you have to doa lot of the in the approaches,
okay, and that's hard for me,because I'm like very timid and
(35:50):
I'm super awkward, so I'm like,hey, hello, can we have?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
your sim.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
So it has led to a lot of very awkward experiences,
but I'm just like this is fine,it is fine, it'll all work out.
So it's definitely been reallyinteresting since having top
surgery because that was reallyI used to have quite big breasts
and so not having those, toannounce to everyone that I am
(36:21):
female, has been wonderful, buthas also been like a very
interesting experience so ardenyour your book.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
It sounds like they are mostly about this their
suspense novels that happen tohave characters who are queer.
Is that the way you would countit, or do you actually really
explore your issues in any ofthe novels?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Oh, another great question.
I would say it's probably about50-50, because I wanted to
touch on some queer issues, likeHannah's father is very against
her being a lesbian and hasdisowned her, and so there's
some of that in the prequel, notso much in the main three books
(37:12):
.
And then in book three, james,who is our, looks like a what is
that that saying?
Looks like a cinnamon roll, isa cinnamon roll like he, but is
he's the opposite like he lookslike he could kill you, but he
is a cinnamon roll like.
He's like this kind of.
He's gone through a lot oftrauma and his spoiler alert his
(37:37):
partner dies and he's had a lot.
He was in the military and histeam just owned him when they
found out that he was gay, andso there's a lot of trauma there
.
But I just I work it into thestory.
Okay and yeah, like I said, Ithink probably like 50-50-ish.
Okay and yeah, like I said, Ithink probably like 50-50-ish.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, and so what's next for you in writing?
Do you plan to stay among thesame trajectory?
Do you plan to delve a littlebit more into sexuality and
relationships, or what are youthinking?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Oh, I'm working on a queer queer, the definition
could be like so long, butessentially it's a queer poly
romanticy.
There's a romantic fantasy withpoly relationship, with ruin
magic.
So essentially they have tolike carve ruins into their skin
(38:32):
to wield their magic and theyare fated to have someone as
their partner.
But what they don't know isthat they can be fated to have
multiple partners.
So exploring that polyrelationship, partnership side
of things as well in that book,which I'm insanely excited to
(38:52):
explore, so it should be a goodone okay, wait.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So pansexual doesn't net doesn't mean poly.
So how do you know about this?
Are you also poly?
Be a friend, poly I'm all aboutthat poly lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Okay, I would say that being in a poly
relationship is like a goal forme.
Being a part of a polycule like, yes, I, I want that is my
ideal relationship structure.
Okay, because I do, I have, Ihave.
How do I say this?
I enjoy being in like platonicclose relationships and
(39:36):
occasionally intimaterelationships, but I really just
love to have the closeness, andso I think polycules and poly
relationships are ideally suitedfor someone like me, where you
have that like closeness butyou're not solely responsible
for the well-being of that otherperson.
The well-being of that otherperson, emotional well-being of
that other person.
You're sharing therelationships.
(39:59):
So that's how I see that.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
But that sounds like friendships to me.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, in some ways.
Yeah, it's a fine line.
I would say.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Okay, yeah, I have friends.
I have multiple friends andpersonalities of your friends
and what they're good at.
You know what, what I had to,what they're good for, but
essentially that is that.
So I may have I.
I have close and non-physicalintimate relationships with
these friends.
We're all really good friends.
We love each other and I can goto this friend for these types
(40:41):
of conversations and this friendto go out.
I know that this other friendis not going out, they'd rather
come and hang and watch TV.
You have different interactionswith different people.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
But you're not sleeping with them.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
But that's what they said.
They said some of those are not.
Well, that's what relationshipsthat are yeah, some, but others
yes.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
That's why I think like a polycule could be a good,
a good match yeah, I didn't thefirst time I'm hearing that
word, polycule yeah, I'm, I'm.
It's a newer one for me, butit's, yeah, that it's uh.
You have your little polyculesthat come together and you have
your little poly family okay,all right, very interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
And so what attracts you to this lifestyle is is it
this is what I heard?
I mean it could be wrong, butis it one not having full
responsibility for the well,emotional, well-being of one
person entirely on you?
And also, have not you nothaving to rely on just one
(41:48):
person for and that supporthaving being able to fill your
cup with in multiple places,physically and emotionally?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
yeah, and I think it's about finding I like to use
the term your want match.
So I have wants, they havewants, and so it's finding that
person who meets that want thatis maybe not met by someone else
in the group.
Let's say, partner X reallyenjoys hiking but none of the
(42:21):
other individuals do I enjoyhiking, so I can be a want match
for that partner.
It's like what you were sayingwith friendships, right, like
you each have a role, or likedifferent things that you bring
to the partnership.
I find that really comforting Toknow that like I really enjoy
this probably sounds silly, butlike I really enjoy holding
(42:43):
hands.
Maybe one partner does anddoesn't, the rest don't.
Like I know I could go to thatpartner and just be like, hey,
can we like hold hands and likecuddle for a bit or have that
Like that moment together.
I know that that's they'remeeting my want and I'm meeting
theirs.
Maybe they really love tocuddle.
So it's building that kind ofyeah, that group or that
(43:11):
community, that where we're alllike working together to meet
each other's wants interesting,very interesting okay all right,
so the next book you're gonna,or may, theories, novels, are
going to delve into that thereis.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
So where can we find your books?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
You can get them on my website, which is
ardencootscom, that'sA-R-D-E-N-C-O-U-T-T-S dot com,
and you can also get them onAmazon.
But if you're into supportingindie authors, definitely get
them off my website.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Sounds good.
All right, ar good, all right,arden.
This was a very interestingconversation and I'm sure the
listeners cannot wait to gettheir hands on some of your
materials.
Likewise myself, I have learneda lot from this conversation.
So, listeners, there you haveit.
Arden Kootz is a transmasc,non-binary individual and a
(44:16):
queer suspect romantic novelcreator helping members of the
queer community withself-discovery.
Thank you, arden, for being onA Queer Understanding and we
just cannot wait to get ourhands on your content.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Thank you, this has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Thank you.
Arden Counts crafts queer romantic suspense novels
that delve deep into thecomplexities of love and
self-discovery as a trans,non-binary individual.
Arden uses their ownexperiences and those of their
peers to enhance their work.
In their varied and diversewriting, their goal is to share
the queer experience withreaders, no matter their gender
(00:21):
identity or sexual orientation.
Readers, no matter their genderidentity or sexual orientation.
It's Arden's goal to have theirwriting act as a launching pad
to build a community aroundqueer issues and identities.
Arden wishes to fill the gap inthe publishing industry that
exists for people who realizetheir sexuality and gender later
in life.
Through this community, arden'sgoal is to give readers hope
(00:42):
that they can find love even asthey navigate their journeys.
Arden's goal is to give readershope that they can find love
even as they navigate theirjourneys.
Arden's work also aims toencourage readers to think
differently about their ownperceptions, perspectives and
assumptions.
Here's our conversation.
Welcome, arden.
Thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Arden.
Before we get started, can youlet us know what your pronouns
are?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh, absolutely, I use they, them pronouns Okay great.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So you actually are the second novelist we've had on
.
The one person we had doesgraphic novels, so I'm excited
to hear about your twist onthings.
His was like a historicalsci-fi twist on things, yeah, so
I'll have to definitely connectyou to your.
But so you write queer romanticsuspense novels focusing on
(01:35):
love and self-discovery.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yes, I like to say that I write.
They're like eighties actionmovies, but gay.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, all right, so tell us about what you have
recently published.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, I have been working on a trilogy for the
last two years, with the firstbook coming out last year and
that was Fall Into Midnight, andthen this year I published
books two and three of thatseries, which are Fall Into Me.
That came out in June of 2024.
And the last book in thetrilogy we All Fall just came
(02:18):
out, november 12th.
Congratulations I amself-published in the author.
It has been a journey what gotyou into writing?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
have you always been interested in in in writing or
the arts in some form?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
oh yeah, absolutely.
I grew up with a mother thatwas a very avid reader and kind
of made sure that all of us kidshad an appreciation for books,
would drop us off at the libraryas our babysitter kind of
situation.
So I grew up reading and wasalso a very sad and depressed
(03:00):
child.
So I turned to poetry andwriting to get my feelings out
and express what I was feeling.
And it started back when I waseight-ish and I have been
writing ever since but didn'ttake the leap into publishing
until 2022 to 2023.
(03:24):
So it took me a while to getthere, but I finally took the
leap okay, oh, you said you were.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
I have to ask you said you were as a child you
were sad and depressed.
What contributed to that?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
oh, so many things.
I grew up in a very ruralnebraska, like north central
Nebraska more cows than peopletype of situation and mental
health, like sexuality andgender conversations were
non-existent.
Especially during that time aswell, like in the 80s and 90s,
(04:02):
and it being in Nebraska, beingbeing Nebraska, those
conversations weren't had and Igrew up with this sense of not
belonging anywhere and justbeing like so desperately alone
and that really impacted mymental health because I felt
(04:23):
like I didn't belong but Ididn't know why I didn't belong
or what was causing thosefeelings.
So, working out through poetry,just really sad poems.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
So you didn't.
You felt like you weredifferent, but you didn't know
how or why or to what extent.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Initially, yeah, and I think it was primarily because
I didn't have the languageright, because no one was like I
always.
I grew up with three brothersand I always thought of myself
as one of the boys and didn'tknow that I wasn't until I got a
(05:05):
little older and I think, if Ihave the language now to be like
(05:30):
, okay, I'm transmasc,non-binary, that is who I am now
, but it took me a long time.
It has been a journey throughmany different um, I don't know,
I guess, like definitions ofmyself okay, yeah, or then
during the art as a writer.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
You mentioned about your childhood.
A lot is are there anycharacter in any of those novels
, that kind of your childhood?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
oh, that is a great question.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think most of the characters represent me through
probably my 20s and 30s where Iwas still figuring out who I was
and struggling withself-confidence and just finding
that confidence to be who I amand who I want to be.
(06:27):
Especially in the first book,fall Into Midnight, the two main
characters, gray and Hannah.
Gray is this gender-fluid, veryconfident, capable character
and Hannah is a shy, introvertedcharacter and those are very
much two parts of who I am andin the end they become one and
are this wonderful couple ofconfidence and like caring and
(06:52):
empathy and that's definitelykind of my journey of finding
myself in a book that one'sdefinitely special to me.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So your characters.
So it's a trilogy, so are thesame two characters in each of
the books.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Ooh, they did it fun.
They did it in kind of a funway, I think.
So each book is told from adifferent couple's point of view
.
Okay, but the same charactersare in all three books.
So book one and the storylineis overarching throughout each
book, so you have to read allthree to get the full story.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
But book one is Hannah and Gray, and then book
two are Key and Marcus andthey're a hetero couple, and
then book three is James andLuke.
So we get the whole spectrum ofrelationships and different
issues that they encounter, buttheir goal throughout all three
(07:59):
books are to overcome the mafiaboss that is causing all the
issues.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Okay, I like it.
You're being very inclusivewhen you write your novels, not
just being on one end of thespectrum, so I really like that
yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So there is a protagonist and you are telling
the story of their interactionwith the mafia boss from
different couples perspectives,while at the same time you are
telling about some relationshipissues that they have going on
as well yeah, there's definitelyoh, I'm like I don't know if I
(08:40):
want to call them relationshipissues.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Definitely a lot of the issues in the books are
caused by our protagonist, okay,but the couple, especially Key
and Marcus, because Marcus goesthrough some really traumatizing
events and Key has to recognizethat he's been through these
things and has a little PTSDthere's some mental health
(09:04):
struggles going on there and hasto overcome her desire to be
almost too caring towards himand has to back off a little bit
until he's ready for her tomove at at the pace that he's
ready for.
So I also like to flip a littlebit of the gender role that you
would normally see in books,like you'd normally see the male
(09:26):
character as the hero that'sprotecting the damsel in
distress and I don't go for that, I've worked with it.
So Key is definitely the badassin that book and is caring for
Marcus and making sure that he'sokay and nursing him back to
health.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Okay, very cool, he's okay.
And nursing him back to health?
Okay, very cool.
So do any other relationshipsthat you have observed um inform
the characters in the novel?
So friends, family, anythinglike that?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
oh yeah, another great question.
Oh, these are wonderfulquestions.
I think a lot of it is my ownexperiences and the things that
I desire.
So I explore a lot of platonicrelationships as well, like the
different types of relationshipsthat you could have.
(10:19):
You have your like yourco-workers, that you're like
close to right but you're maybenot like as close to them as you
are with your friends.
You have like really close,intimate, platonic relationships
with people.
Then you have your intimaterelationships with people, and
so I explore that whole realmand the different types of
(10:40):
partnerships, and that'ssomething that comes from my own
desire to have those types ofrelationships.
I'm a very kind of introvertedperson and it's hard for me to
build those things.
Writing has been a way for meto explore what that would be
like and how I envision thoserelationships to be.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I like.
So you mentioned that youdidn't actually.
Actually, I want to back upbecause you said you identify as
trans mask non-binary.
What exactly did that mean?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yes, I love and hate this question at the same time.
So this is this is my owndefinition of it but but
non-binary.
I don't identify as female ormale, but I trend towards
masculine.
I have I prefer to be seen asmore male than female physically
(11:40):
, if that makes sense yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Do you feel more internally that you have more
masculine or more tradition?
What are considered moretraditionally masculine traits?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
yeah, absolutely.
But I also I'm very adamantabout it's like a catch-22.
Like I want to be seen as male,but I don't want to be seen as
a man, so like I have a littletorn there because there's a lot
of I don't see myself as a man,but I have masculine energy.
(12:15):
Just make sure we put it yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
And you also.
So, yeah, I agree, we all havemasculine and feminine energy
internally and that can getdisplayed in our interactions
with our partners, ourinteractions with the world, but
some people don't.
That happens in varying degrees.
That can happen based on whoyou're interacting with.
You may have more feminine,express yourself more in a more
(12:42):
feminine way, depending on whoyou're interacting with, for
various reasons, and sometimesthose things are separate from
our gender identity or ourgender expression.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
But sometimes people like for those things to
coincide or to be or how I feelinternally be represented
externally yes, I, oh sorry Iwas gonna say I really
appreciate that you mentionedthat energy can shift depending
on who you're communicating withand interacting with, because
(13:14):
that's something I've noticedabout myself and I'm always like
, oh my gosh, does that mean I'mnot like authentic, does that
mean I'm not really transmasc?
And so I've had a lot ofinternal struggle trying to
understand interaction and theenergy that I put out.
(13:36):
But yeah, I don't know.
That just makes me feel greatthat you mentioned that, because
I'm like okay, yeah, it is okayto put out different energy
based on who you're interactingwith.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, for sure.
I think that you being yourmost authentic self, if you are
able to, either consciously orsubconsciously, tap into that or
to allow that to be expressed,based on what that person is
bringing out in you, becausethere's a I suppose it's always
a balance.
There's yin and yang, right?
(14:08):
So if you are interacting withsomeone who is more feminine,
maybe that brings out morefemininity in you, and so you,
you tap into the quote-unquotegirliness a little bit more.
It could bring out the oppositein you, and it could have a lot
to do with the person, but alsoa lot to do with where you are
in life and what recently hashappened to you or what you
(14:28):
recently experienced, to makeyou say, oh, I want to show up
in this situation in a littlemore masculine way.
Or I'm feeling very I don'teven know the word besides
feminine, but I can think of itright now but I'm feeling very
and I hate to use other wordsbecause I don't want to say
emotional or in tune with myemotions, because that is not
(14:51):
necessarily uniquely feminine,although women, people who are
more feminine, tend to displaythose emotions in a more, in a
less aggressive way than whoconsider themselves more
masculine.
But yeah, it's to the pointthat I feel like people are
their most authentic selves whenthey're able to be more fluid
(15:14):
in how they express themselves.
They start in the person I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
yeah, that's a great way to to see that interaction.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
So, yeah, that's the beauty of the queer community,
right, you're able to expressyourself, and that's the beauty
of having a podcast that don'tjudge.
So be yourself, be your true,authentic self.
So I'm a person surrounding.
It's like a step back as well.
Where you met you, youidentified as trans, mass,
(15:45):
non-binary and you said growingup in Nebraska, where it's a
very rural state and people,most people, probably have no
idea what you're talking about.
How did you navigate that,especially with family and
friends?
When you talk about thosethings, what's your perception,
reflection?
Speaker 2 (16:03):
It was interesting.
I first came out as bi when Iwas in high school and that
didn't go well.
My mother and sister I don'treally remember how my father
reacted, which could mean whoknows what that means, but my
(16:24):
mom and sister had kids reactedvery poorly, and especially my
older sister, which isinteresting in and of itself.
But I also don't remember howmy brothers reacted.
I don't think they really cared, they were probably like
whatever.
But and then I got this journeywhere, when I got into college,
(16:46):
I was still saying I wasbisexual, but I was also leaning
more towards being pansexual orgender fluid as well.
But it took me until my 20s,when I was and I excluded my
parents and family from all ofthis.
I was just like.
I think it's going to be easierif they just think I'm like bi
(17:06):
or don't know anything.
Don't know anything.
But when I decided, when I was,finally I had this breakthrough
moment in therapy and I waslike I'm in the wrong body.
I've always been in the wrongbody and the reason I'm so sad
all the time, even into my 30s,is because I'm not who I'm
(17:27):
supposed to be and that helpedme make the decision to get top
surgery, so essentially like adouble mastectomy, and I was
like I have to tell my mom thatI'm having surgery, just in case
something happens to me.
It was more of a if I suddenlypass away from surgery or
(17:48):
something.
I would like for her to knowthat I was having surgery.
I had to have a conversationwith her about it and I didn't
tell her that I was trans.
I was just, yeah, I'm justhaving a breast reduction and
(18:16):
went that way and it's takensome time.
But I'm two and a half years, Ithink, into my transition and
being on testosterone and movingforward with everything.
And she is trying.
She's trying to use mypreferred name.
She's trying to get on boardwith it.
I think she still has a hardtime wrapping her brain around
it, but there is obvious effortthere of her trying and that's
(18:38):
really all I can hope for, kindof, at this point.
And my grandma who's 80, istotally on board.
And I was just like yes,grandma, thank you, you go
granny.
Yeah, I was like, thank you somuch.
She's like which name do youwant me to use?
Do you want me?
She's like which name do youwant me to use?
Do you want me to call you a?
Do you want me to call youarden?
Like just let me know.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
And I was just like yes, thank you, that's wonderful
we actually heard this severaltimes that grandparents have
been much more accepting, and Idon't know if it's an age thing
where people are just like fuckit, do whatever you want to do
we don don't care anymore.
Or what the situation is.
But yeah, we have heard this acouple of times.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So what's the support like in Nebraska?
Because I've never been toNebraska.
What's it getting into?
Do you have a community there?
I?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
assume there is community.
In some places in NebraskaMaybe the bigger places like
Lincoln and Omaha there'sprobably community.
I avoid Nebraska at all costs.
I haven't been home in quite awhile.
I have a lot of probably.
Some of it is probably just mebeing very scared because of
(19:53):
like.
When I was a kid I there was oneperson in our high school that
was out and people would throwrocks at him.
It was like not a safe spaceany way, shape or form,
especially if you were a gay man.
It was very.
It was a little, becausethere's like that perception of
(20:16):
like bi women.
Everyone's like oh yeah, you'remaking out with everybody, ooh,
and so it's a little moreacceptable.
But it was not a safe space andany means to be anything other
than the norm.
And I'm very cautious when I dogo home.
(20:39):
I think the last time I washome was maybe four years ago
and it was uncomfortable.
It's such a small town likeeverybody knows everybody's
business, and then you havesomeone walking around town.
That's different and it's yeah,it's just uncomfortable.
(21:01):
There's not a community in thetown that I grew up in.
I can definitely say that.
Where are you now?
I live in Durham, northCarolina.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Okay when you got there, because I hear Durham has
a pretty big LGBTQ pluscommunity.
When you got there first, howdid you feel?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I specifically moved here for the community because I
was living in a smaller townthat is a little bit south of
here and it got to the pointwhere I was like I gotta go.
It's been good for a couple ofyears but I need community, I
need to find my people.
So I moved to Durham and Ihaven't been here that long.
So I'm still like trying to tapinto the community, but like
(21:44):
I've joined like a queer sportsteam and like trying to get out
there and meet new people, whichis a little hard for me anyways
, just because I am a littleintroverted.
But so far everyone I've methas been insanely welcoming and
just fantastic.
So it's leaps and bounds aheadof where I have lived in the
(22:04):
past.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
So I want to go back.
You have three brothers and onesister.
Yes, okay in.
So I want to go back.
You have three brothers and onesister.
Uh, yes, okay.
So why?
What do you think it was?
Have you had this conversationwith your mom and your sister
about what was at this point?
It was just about you beingbisexual, and not even your
gender identity.
So do you have any idea whatwas difficult about that for
(22:30):
them?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I have no idea.
The thing that sticks out to me, the thing I remember the most
about that day, was my sister'sreaction, Because she said and
it's so stupid.
She said I hope you don't hiton me what.
And I was like you're my sisterso not gonna happen, so there
(23:01):
was.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It was just a really weird reaction, yeah were you
worried that, your brother,they're gonna hit on you.
But why would you even?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
I don't know yeah wouldn't even come from and I
remember just sitting across thetable for her and just being
like what the fuck?
That makes no sense at all andjust being like you're my sister
and you're also not my type, sodon't worry about it like the
overwhelming.
Yeah, I was just like what ishappening and I've had
(23:31):
conversations with my mom wherefor her it's a lot of she just
doesn't understand is what shesays like she just doesn't
understand and then in her mind,a lot of trans people
specifically do it for theattention.
Oh, they're just trying to getattention.
It's all about attention.
(23:52):
They just want to rub it inpeople's faces and have it be
attention.
And that's comments that shemade before she knew that I was
trans and I hang on to thosebecause I was like this is what
you said to me when you didn'tknow that I was trans.
So, do you think I'm doing thatfor attention?
But I will say that I am notbrave enough to have those
(24:17):
conversations with my mother,yeah, and I'm just don't know
how much energy I want to extendon it, especially anything with
like politics, yeah, and likegender stuff.
I'm just like I'm just gonnalet that be and if one day I'm
feeling real angsty and I got alot of energy, I might start a
(24:41):
conversation, but it's a lotyeah, it's not.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
All I say is it's not for people to understand it,
for people to respect otherpeople, for people to understand
and for people to respect otherpeople's new, other people's
lifestyle.
Everyone is different.
Because you're expecting me tounderstand your straight
lifestyle.
We want to have children, wantto be, not only have a straight
lifestyle, but want to be,sometimes even if you stay in an
(25:07):
abusive relationship.
Sometimes you're in arelationship with people that
you know you don't even love,but you expect people to accept
it or being even like even someof these pastors or something.
They're having extramaritalaffairs, but it's all.
And for you to understand isfor you to respect that not
(25:28):
everyone has the same, noteveryone has the same lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Yeah, and it's.
I'm going to use my youngersibling as another example,
because my youngest brother isin a relationship where they
have a very unique type ofrelationship, him and his
partner and my mom doesn't getit and therefore it's wrong
(25:53):
because it's not within the norm.
Like they have a very likeloving, platonic relationship.
There's not a lot of likephysicality between them and
that works really well for them,but it's not what a man and a
woman should be doing, like theyshould have a physical
relationship and that's thenormal, and so it doesn't make
(26:15):
sense.
I think if it's anythingoutside of the quote unquote
normal, it blows my mom's mindand she's just like I don't get
it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
It should be.
I'm sorry, exactly what goes onin the confines of people's
bedrooms.
it's not for-'s business exactlyand especially relatives,
because I don't ask you whaty'all are doing in the bedroom,
so it's exactly be wonderingabout what's going on in my
(26:43):
bedroom.
All that, yeah, matter is thatI'm with someone who respects me
and loves me and we have asolid, healthy relationship,
whatever that means for us.
That's all that should matter.
And it's fine to be curiousabout things, just to inform
yourself, just because you wantto know, but in judging it,
(27:03):
that's not okay exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And I've had more conversations about my brother's
relationship with my mother,trying to explain everything to
her, than I have about my ownidentity, because I don't know,
I'm like he's my younger brother, like he's in this wonderful
relationship that works so wellfor him and I'm like just let it
be, yeah, weird.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, exactly, I'm interested in your journey from
being bisexual to beingpansexual, what most people know
what pansexual is.
But, like just in case we havea new listener, somebody just a
baby gay just delving into beingwhat is pansexual pansexual.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Is that you are pansexual, is that you are
interested let me know if I likedefine this correctly but
interested in pretty much anyone, no matter the gender, or?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:01):
so I think that's how I define it yeah, I, I wish I
could remember the quote, but Iused.
I love schitt's creed and Ithink it was david's character
was trying to explain to hepresents as very queer, he was
still in the heat's gay, butthen he liked this female
(28:21):
character and they actually didhave sex.
Actually she was so confusedthe next day and she and they
were shopping I think they weregoing for wine with the wine,
yes, and he said oh, sometimesshe was using the wine as a
metaphor and he said she said Iassumed you only liked red wine,
but now I guess maybe you likewhite wine.
And he's all time I did it.
(28:43):
I care what it was, I have togo back and watch it.
But essentially he said it'swhat's inside, yeah, the taste
of the wine.
I don't care about the, whetherit's red, white, whether it's a
chardonnay or a Shiraz orwhatever, what the shape of the
bottle is, whatever I, just ifit tastes good to me, then it
just tastes good to me exactlysentiment.
So yeah, that is spot on yes,that's how I would assign
(29:07):
pansexuals question.
Did you say, did you actuallyfeel like you were bi?
You felt like you liked, and biin a sense of I like men and
women as a pretty, in atraditional sense of male and
female.
Did you actually feel like that?
You liked both.
(29:28):
Or did you somehow have someexperience with someone who was
more gender fluid and realizedthat you, you know, it was more
than just the binary right?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
oh man, another great question.
I'm trying to think back to thetime and I definitely, when I
was identifying as bisexual, Ihad only the binary to reference
Reference, Thank you.
I was like what word do I wantto use here?
And then it's funny because Iwas living in a place that was
(30:04):
not queer friendly in any way,shape or form.
I was in Southern Mississippi.
It was like like not good and Ihad a lot of, but I look like
how I look now.
I had short hair and likepiercings and tattoos and I'd go
(30:24):
into bars and people come up tome and be like you must be an
aging lesbian.
They thought how I looked and Iwould be like this is what it
takes.
You got me.
If we're going solely on looks,then sure, and it was just like
a weird place.
But that was when I was likeyeah, I think I'm pansexual and
I don't know if it was a personor just realizing that I didn't
(30:51):
care if someone was trans orgender fluid or something
outside of the binary.
And I remember we were at thisbar with my coworkers and I was
just finally like I'm a badsexual geek?
It's not.
They were like cool.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Party.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, that's fine, no , no, no, I'm dirty.
Oh, like cool already.
Yeah, that's fine, no, no, I'mnot going to.
I've had some really badexperiences with like co-workers
and people I've lived with likenot taking things well and I'm
always like I'm going to get toknow people for two years, two
or three years before I likeshare any type of information
about myself, especially if I'mworking with them.
(31:34):
And that was about the two anda half or three year mark when I
was finally like okay, guys,this is who I really am, this is
what's up, and they were alllike, yeah, look, we know I'm
like okay, so we're all on thesame page.
But yeah, I don't think therewas a specific person or
experience though that thatinfluenced that.
(31:56):
Okay, just who you are.
Yeah, I think it goes back towhat I was saying about having
the right vocabulary.
I think during that time, likeas more definitions, I guess,
have become more accessible andI've been able to research and
(32:16):
learn more, I'm like, oh, thisfits better, this makes more
sense to me than what I waspreviously defining myself as or
whatever.
So, as time has moved on andlike, more definitions have come
out or become more I want tosay normal, but like in the
(32:37):
conversation, in the vocabulary,more I've been able to really,
like, define myself.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Have you.
It sounds like you.
It's great that you have acommunity of friends that are
open and accepting.
Have you had any difficultiescommunicating that to intimate
partners?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yes, especially when I'm just first getting to know
people, it's I'm.
If it's a male partner, thatcan be an interesting
(33:21):
conversation.
I've had some really greatconversations where it's just us
talking about, okay, like, whatare your preferences?
These are mine, I, this is howI identify, just being open
about it, and I've been lucky inthat a lot of the individuals
that I have had relationshipswith have been very open with it
and, yeah, it's beeninteresting.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Okay, yeah, unfortunately there are still
some biases within the community.
Yes, so sometimes people have ahard time.
I'll say this as a whole thecommunity may be pretty
(34:07):
accepting, but your individualbiases come in when you're
actually in relation withsomeone, and so sometimes it's
hard for people to accept orunderstand people who aren't
strictly gay or strictly lesbian.
We don't have a preference forone specific gender type yeah
(34:29):
understand, and it's hard forthem to feel secure with that
because they just they.
But people like to know what toexpect.
And if you like a lot ofdifferent, if you just, if
you're really in it for thespirit, then you could like
anybody, and so I don't know who.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I'm comfortable with you being around because you
might like them too, it's beenan interesting experience going
like out to like clubs or barsor whatever, because in the day
I presented very feminine, likeI had really long hair, I still
had breasts, like I was veryfeminine.
(35:05):
And since I've started mytransition I always I feel like
I'm somewhere in between, whichis what I want.
Like I want to be just likeandrogynous and, yeah, just
somewhere in the middle.
But where that causes issues isI think it confuses a lot of
(35:28):
people, especially folks thatdon't know me.
If I'm out at a club, somewomen might be like, oh, that's
a man, and some women might belike, oh, that's a man, and some
men might be like, oh, that's awoman, and so in the end nobody
approaches me so you have to doa lot of the in the approaches,
okay, and that's hard for me,because I'm like very timid and
(35:50):
I'm super awkward, so I'm like,hey, hello, can we have?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
your sim.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
So it has led to a lot of very awkward experiences,
but I'm just like this is fine,it is fine, it'll all work out.
So it's definitely been reallyinteresting since having top
surgery because that was reallyI used to have quite big breasts
and so not having those, toannounce to everyone that I am
(36:21):
female, has been wonderful, buthas also been like a very
interesting experience so ardenyour your book.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
It sounds like they are mostly about this their
suspense novels that happen tohave characters who are queer.
Is that the way you would countit, or do you actually really
explore your issues in any ofthe novels?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Oh, another great question.
I would say it's probably about50-50, because I wanted to
touch on some queer issues, likeHannah's father is very against
her being a lesbian and hasdisowned her, and so there's
some of that in the prequel, notso much in the main three books
(37:12):
.
And then in book three, james,who is our, looks like a what is
that that saying?
Looks like a cinnamon roll, isa cinnamon roll like he, but is
he's the opposite like he lookslike he could kill you, but he
is a cinnamon roll like.
He's like this kind of.
He's gone through a lot oftrauma and his spoiler alert his
(37:37):
partner dies and he's had a lot.
He was in the military and histeam just owned him when they
found out that he was gay, andso there's a lot of trauma there
.
But I just I work it into thestory.
Okay and yeah, like I said, Ithink probably like 50-50-ish.
Okay and yeah, like I said, Ithink probably like 50-50-ish.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, and so what's next for you in writing?
Do you plan to stay among thesame trajectory?
Do you plan to delve a littlebit more into sexuality and
relationships, or what are youthinking?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Oh, I'm working on a queer queer, the definition
could be like so long, butessentially it's a queer poly
romanticy.
There's a romantic fantasy withpoly relationship, with ruin
magic.
So essentially they have tolike carve ruins into their skin
(38:32):
to wield their magic and theyare fated to have someone as
their partner.
But what they don't know isthat they can be fated to have
multiple partners.
So exploring that polyrelationship, partnership side
of things as well in that book,which I'm insanely excited to
(38:52):
explore, so it should be a goodone okay, wait.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So pansexual doesn't net doesn't mean poly.
So how do you know about this?
Are you also poly?
Be a friend, poly I'm all aboutthat poly lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Okay, I would say that being in a poly
relationship is like a goal forme.
Being a part of a polycule like, yes, I, I want that is my
ideal relationship structure.
Okay, because I do, I have, Ihave.
How do I say this?
I enjoy being in like platonicclose relationships and
(39:36):
occasionally intimaterelationships, but I really just
love to have the closeness, andso I think polycules and poly
relationships are ideally suitedfor someone like me, where you
have that like closeness butyou're not solely responsible
for the well-being of that otherperson.
The well-being of that otherperson, emotional well-being of
that other person.
You're sharing therelationships.
(39:59):
So that's how I see that.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
But that sounds like friendships to me.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, in some ways.
Yeah, it's a fine line.
I would say.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Okay, yeah, I have friends.
I have multiple friends andpersonalities of your friends
and what they're good at.
You know what, what I had to,what they're good for, but
essentially that is that.
So I may have I.
I have close and non-physicalintimate relationships with
these friends.
We're all really good friends.
We love each other and I can goto this friend for these types
(40:41):
of conversations and this friendto go out.
I know that this other friendis not going out, they'd rather
come and hang and watch TV.
You have different interactionswith different people.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
But you're not sleeping with them.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
But that's what they said.
They said some of those are not.
Well, that's what relationshipsthat are yeah, some, but others
yes.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
That's why I think like a polycule could be a good,
a good match yeah, I didn't thefirst time I'm hearing that
word, polycule yeah, I'm, I'm.
It's a newer one for me, butit's, yeah, that it's uh.
You have your little polyculesthat come together and you have
your little poly family okay,all right, very interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
And so what attracts you to this lifestyle is is it
this is what I heard?
I mean it could be wrong, butis it one not having full
responsibility for the well,emotional, well-being of one
person entirely on you?
And also, have not you nothaving to rely on just one
(41:48):
person for and that supporthaving being able to fill your
cup with in multiple places,physically and emotionally?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
yeah, and I think it's about finding I like to use
the term your want match.
So I have wants, they havewants, and so it's finding that
person who meets that want thatis maybe not met by someone else
in the group.
Let's say, partner X reallyenjoys hiking but none of the
(42:21):
other individuals do I enjoyhiking, so I can be a want match
for that partner.
It's like what you were sayingwith friendships, right, like
you each have a role, or likedifferent things that you bring
to the partnership.
I find that really comforting Toknow that like I really enjoy
this probably sounds silly, butlike I really enjoy holding
(42:43):
hands.
Maybe one partner does anddoesn't, the rest don't.
Like I know I could go to thatpartner and just be like, hey,
can we like hold hands and likecuddle for a bit or have that
Like that moment together.
I know that that's they'remeeting my want and I'm meeting
theirs.
Maybe they really love tocuddle.
So it's building that kind ofyeah, that group or that
(43:11):
community, that where we're alllike working together to meet
each other's wants interesting,very interesting okay all right,
so the next book you're gonna,or may, theories, novels, are
going to delve into that thereis.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
So where can we find your books?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
You can get them on my website, which is
ardencootscom, that'sA-R-D-E-N-C-O-U-T-T-S dot com,
and you can also get them onAmazon.
But if you're into supportingindie authors, definitely get
them off my website.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Sounds good.
All right, ar good, all right,arden.
This was a very interestingconversation and I'm sure the
listeners cannot wait to gettheir hands on some of your
materials.
Likewise myself, I have learneda lot from this conversation.
So, listeners, there you haveit.
Arden Kootz is a transmasc,non-binary individual and a
(44:16):
queer suspect romantic novelcreator helping members of the
queer community withself-discovery.
Thank you, arden, for being onA Queer Understanding and we
just cannot wait to get ourhands on your content.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Thank you, this has been wonderful.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Thank you.
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