Take Your GM Skills to Work! Gaming Outside the Box with Dr Dan Epstein of The Long Game Project

Episode Transcript
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Sara (00:01):
Welcome to A Role to Play, an RPG community podcast
exploring the world ofrole-playing games.
This is Episode 9.
I'm Sarah, your host, and todayI'm talking with Dr Dan Epstein
, director of Core Strategy andGame Design at the Long Game
Project.
Have you ever wanted to be agame master?
Or maybe you've dreamed oftaking your game master skills

(00:23):
to work to be a game master, ormaybe you've dreamed of taking
your game master skills to work?
Well, you can Get on the fasttrack with a free Foundations of
Tabletop Exercising course fromthe Long Game Project.
Last year, the Long GameProject designed over 130
scenarios for organizations witha combined market cap of $3.4
billion.
Dr Dan is both a medical doctoras well as an academic one.

(00:44):
He also has expertise indecision-making, behavior change
, tabletop game design,behavioral economics, pandemic
prevention and more.
Today, we talk all about games.
We explore creativity,problem-solving and how to get
better outcomes for businessproblems by leveraging the power

(01:05):
of games.
Welcome to A World to Play, drDan.
Thanks for joining.

Dr. Dan Epstein (01:08):
Thanks for inviting me.
I'm excited to be here.

Sara (01:11):
Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you about the Long Game
Project.
I found this on Instagram.
It came up in my feed and Ithought what is this?
It's like learning how to playgames better.
There's a free course andthere's actually certificate
courses as well.
Like this is neat.
Like tell me a little bit aboutthis.

I'm surprised you found us through Instagram.
That's a new one for me.
We're not usually found throughInstagram, but that's kind of
cool.
We're not usually found throughInstagram, but that's kind of
cool.
Yeah, so the Long Game Projectstarted, as me, doing some

(02:08):
consulting work, doing tabletopgames for people in businesses
or organizations and simulatingthings to help them improve
their decision-making orstrategy.
It's a kind of tool that Iguess started with military
applications and defenseapplications and is very popular
still in defense and in thecyber communities, but it's not
often done in the context ofother kind of organizations or

(02:28):
decision-making contexts.
And that's what the aim is ofthe Long Game Project is to kind
of improve people'sdecision-making and do it using
tabletop games, basicallythrough tabletop exercising.
So we run games, we designgames and we've just started
this year to kind of try toachieve more impact by teaching

(02:49):
people how to fish, basically.
So trying to tap into thenetwork of you know existing
tabletop game enthusiasts andhobbyists like you and I, and
teaching those people that youknow you have the skills to run
these things.
It's not too dissimilar totabletop gaming or TTRPGs.
So trying to find those people,to let them know they have the

(03:13):
skills and to teach them.
So we're trying to do a lotmore education and content
around how to become a gamemaster for tabletop, exercising
within your organization.
So that's all we're doing now.

Sara (03:29):
I have to say that was a fantastic elevator speech.
I feel you just covered off allthe bases right there.
That's really cool.
But I'm left wondering manythings.
First and foremost, I guess,like just the whole idea like
I'm just fascinated with, like Iget it that tabletop gaming

(03:52):
exercises lead to betterdecisions and have a lot of
application in the workspace.
And in fact, I was just talkinglike a week ago with Glenn
Sorenson from Hackback Gamingand we were talking about
tabletop exercises and gamifyingthem and that sort of thing as
well.
But there's a piece about thisabout the appeal of why this
works, and I think that that'sone of the most interesting

(04:15):
pieces.
And I feel like there is alsoan unusual coming together of
different ideas and passions inthe long game project.
That also makes it very, veryinteresting.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about that?
Like what is the importance ofplay in the sense of these
exercises?

It's a really, really nuanced point that you
make.
So, look, I think everybodywho's played tabletop rpgs knows
that they can be, uh, just thisreally amazing dynamic
environment where kind of cooland weird stuff can happen.
And that's what makes them abit different to like a book or
a story or a video game is thatthings can happen that you don't

(05:00):
expect, that aren't writteninto the story or the code and
you know you can take them instrange, weird directions.
And that that kind of dynamismand that, um, you know, almost
ability to do whatever you canin the theater of whatever your
imagination is, with yourfriends, uh, or whoever's at the
table is, is kind of the magicingredient of why tabletop

(05:21):
exercises are such a good thingfor a like a simulation tool
really.
So that's essentially whatwe're using them as a tool to
kind of make this imaginaryworld where things can happen
and you can simulate either aresponse to something that
doesn't happen or a sorry, aresponse to something that
hasn't happened yet or that youforecast might happen or would

(05:44):
be very risky if it did happen.
And all of those things aresimulatable through spreadsheets
or whatever.
But when you've got complicatedkind of interpersonal dynamics
or you know, situations thatinvolve multiple stakeholders.
You need a much more dynamicenvironment to do those things,

(06:06):
need a much more dynamicenvironment to do those things.
So tabletop exercising providesa really good medium to kind of
simulate those, uh, verydynamic, very complicated
situations.
Um, that can't easily be doneon a spreadsheet or in a?
Uh, in a meeting that doesn'thave that, you know, is very
much more structured, it's agreat way of containing the
chaos.
I think is what I'm trying tosay it's a good learning

(06:26):
environment.
Yeah, um, yeah, everyone who'splayed it's actually like it's a
harder.
Your audience is probably likean easy one to sell on the idea
that tabletop exercising can belike a transformative thing.
I find it quite hard to sellthat to like leaders of
organizations or teams, whereasthe sell to like this audience

(06:46):
would be quite easily.
Quite easy Because you can ifyou've ever played D&D, ever
played any kind of tabletopexercise you know that you can
create these amazing things andthat magic that happens about
you know learning and experienceand engagement and immersion
All of those things are why it'sgood.

Sara (07:05):
Let's just take a moment and talk about that, because I
feel like this is a bit of acrossover as well.
There will be some people wholisten to this, who aren't
really into role-playing games,but may be curious about the
podcast or about this topic.
Let's just talk a moment aboutwhat it is to be playing a role
role in a role playing game andhaving that experience.

(07:30):
I think there's somethingspecial about it, but I'd like
to hear from you how would youdescribe that experience?

I think it depends on, like, what your aims
and objectives are when you'replaying a role.
Like a of people come torole-playing games through,
either if they're, you know,interested in books and can
project themselves into like aprotagonist or inside a story
and just want to be in a moredynamic environment where they

(07:59):
want to kind of, you know, bearound their friends or have
choices to make.
Or they come through it,through, you know, video games
where you've got an environmentand you're you're playing a
character and you're them intheir environment, you're making
choices, but those choices arekind of limited, and so playing
a role in a role playingtabletop game is very similar to

(08:19):
those situations, but theexpanse of what you can do is,
uh, you know, to some degreelike a very big sandbox and very
infinite, like you can chooseto do, and you can choose to be
whoever you want to be, and Ithink it's that, um, it's that
freedom that a lot of peoplechoose to do it.
But then you've got a lot ofother reasons why people like to

(08:41):
role play.
People like to just sometimeshave a break from themselves and
be someone else, or they wantto explore a theme or a topic
that means a lot to them orsomething, know they might want
to play as a, as a adversaryforce, like a, you know, like a

(09:09):
cyber security breach, and theywant a red team as the
opposition.
They want to get inside of thatmindset.
Or they may want to think aboutwhat it's like to be a
competitor of theirs and lookfrom the outside, or so there's
a whole heap of reasons whysomeone might want to be someone
else, I think for pleasure orfor, you know, intellectual
interest, or for exploratorythinking, but that's, I guess

(09:33):
that's the framework that Iapply to.
It is like how do you?
Yeah, like there's many reasonsas to why someone might want to
be someone else for a littlebit.

Sara (09:43):
Yeah, I totally agree.
Someone might want to want tobe someone else for a little bit
.
Yeah, I totally agree, and Ithink that there's something.
There is something unique aboutit as well, because until you
actually take that role, youdon't quite understand what it's
like to be in that position.
But as soon as you're in thatposition and you have, like
stats and things that sort ofmatter to your success or your
experience of the game playdifferently, you may make

(10:06):
decisions that you never thoughtyou would make and suddenly you
understand why other peoplemake those decisions.

Uh, and it brings out a lot of new things
so everything you just said islike yeah, I guess, like there's
this, there's a bit of a tropein like tabletop gaming that
your first character is alwayslike pretty similar to who you
are as a person, because it'skind of like a safe space to dip
into and, um, you know a lot ofpeople just play themselves if

(10:33):
they were big and muscular andhad a sword or you know super
charismatic um, but it's alsolike a safe space to explore
parts of yourself that you maybedon't or haven't wanted to
explore in reality yet.
Like I know a lot of queerpeople have decided to, you know
, experiment with playing.
You know gendered roles ordifferent kind of versions of

(10:57):
themselves in that way longbefore, kind of you know,
exploring those things inreality as well.
So I think it's a reallyimportant safe space to kind of
investigate those types ofthoughts and you know reality as
well.
So I think it's a reallyimportant safe space to kind of
investigate those types ofthoughts and experiences as well
.

Sara (11:09):
I think that people are often surprised at how much,
when they get into it and theyget invested in their character,
how much they actually do care.
And I think that that is part ofwhen it's just a game, that's
part of the power of theenjoyment and playing with the
imagination that you can do andbe anything in the game.
And that's a real draw power ofthe enjoyment and playing with
the imagination that you can doand be anything in the game.
And that's a real draw.
It's almost like a drug to say,oh, like, look, I can

(11:31):
experience this.
But when you take that and youput it into the world of
simulation and any kind ofsimulation and you have a goal
in mind of what you're lookingto achieve, you can still get
those benefits of saying, well,what are the real things?
I always thought my answerwould be X, but when I'm
actually in the situation andthere's all this pressure and
there's these other people atthe table who are applying their

(11:54):
pressures, I find that theanswer is actually not even on
the list.
It's not even why.
It's something I never wouldhave even conceived of, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

Sara (12:07):
Part of what impressed me with the Long Game Project is
the course, and I'm just makingmy way through the free course
and I'm not as far along as Iwould like to be, because I want
to do this, I want to do thewhole thing, but there is a
degree of sophistication inthere, of understanding.
It's very well researched andthere is, it's clear about

(12:31):
figuring out what kind of gameit will be that you choose and
then designing how that gamewill work in order to get the
outcome that you, that you'reseeking.
I was very impressed.
There's all kinds of citations.
This is very clearlywell-documented research.
A lot of this will reallyappeal to the people who are
like you know, like academic, orwant to see like okay, but show

(12:51):
me the proof behind this.
What's the science behind this?
Like it's all there, right?

Well, I hope it's also approachable because
I'm getting a bit of likegetting a bit of character bleed
here to my past life as anacademic.
So I did a PhD in kind ofbehavior change and decision
making, but it had some kind ofgame design elements to it as
well and I've been an indie kindof tabletop game designer for
10 years or so and I tried myhardest to stick away from like

(13:19):
being very academic when makingthe course.
But I think that's where mymind goes to when I'm starting
to unpack a question is likeokay, well, what's the theory
behind this and how do we getpeople from A to B?
And more or less it's justabout making a you know a
logical like progression andalso just making sure that you
know it's evidence that there'slike there's actual theories

(13:41):
that underlie things and you'vegot some you know further
resources to look up if you wantto look up.
But to be honest, it's notsuper academic.
Anyone could do the course.
It's very much designed forpeople who have played or have
had experience to tabletop gamesand the complete aim of it is
just to upskill those people andshow them that they do have the

(14:02):
skills to run tabletopexercises, but also giving them
a little bit more informationand understanding that it's not
just like fancy D&D or like it'snot just D&D for fancy people.
There's a little bit more.
I try to break it down to makeit super easy to show people
that really, taking from thefirst question, like what the

(14:27):
hell is tabletop exercising, andI kind of just explain what the
history is and the background,and then we go into the
different types of kind ofexercises that you can do, so
it's just about showing thedifferent kind of underlying
game systems really and why youwould choose one over another.
And going from there, I'vereally enjoyed it.

Sara (14:47):
The videos are very well done.
They're short segments.
They're professionally shot.
I find it all very interestingactually.

It's totally free, you can do it at your own
pace.
The aim of it is to try andattract people who are slightly
interested in tabletopexercising or tabletop gaming
and can that it's a or tabletopgaming and can see it's a
powerful tool and if you've everwanted to, if you've ever run
into a situation at work or everthought about, hey, could I
bring this to work somehow, theunderlying premise is to teach

(15:20):
people that you do have thoseskills inside of you.
It's about just how you goabout unlocking those skills to
bring to a professionalenvironment.
You know, because it's hard tobring you know a one-shot D&D to
work, but it's quite easy tosuggest a tabletop exercise if
you know what you're doing.
There's one part of the coursefurther towards the end that is

(15:44):
about kind of looking atyourself as a game master and
kind of really thinking aboutyou know who you are and like
what your, what your skills areand what your ambitions are and
what makes you a bit different.
And if you're in thatprofessional space, you have to
really think about that and it'ssomething that I've had to work
on as well.
About, you know, almost like abrand of yourself, like what is
your flavor as a as game master,and it really is something you

(16:05):
need to think about.
And also like the concept ofplaytesting yourself.
You know like playtesting issomething we bring up through
the game design parts of youknow how you think about
building a tabletop exercisethat's successful.
It's a lot about you knowplaytesting it, make sure it
works.
But I like to think about theconcept of play testing to bring

(16:28):
back to yourself as well, so tomake you know, to make you
think that you can get betterthrough iterative processes, and
that's my concept of how I likeprocess any type of criticism
or feedback.
Maybe it's like a psychologicalcoping mechanism a little bit,
but it's this idea ofunderstanding that when someone

(16:51):
gives you criticism, or whensomeone gives you feedback, or
yourself giving yourselfcriticism or feedback, trying to
listen to the signal throughthe noise, and understanding
that through the concept ofplaytesting, which is familiar
to people who come through games, that you can improve it.
You can improve the product byfiguring out what needs to get

(17:13):
better for next time, and it'sall about practice.
So I just think about that whenI'm thinking about being a
better game master myself.
Is that you're never going toget it all right game master
myself is that you're nevergoing to get it all right.
It's incredibly hard job withlots of moving pieces and people
management and being dynamicand saying the right things and,
you know, sharing the spotlightand all these skills that come
together.
It's incredibly hard and youcan only just iteratively

(17:38):
improve by playtesting yourself.

Sara (17:41):
I'm glad you said all of those things, because what you
just said there also makes thecase for doing the exercises and
also for bringing it into theworkspace, because there is that
opportunity to improve andthere is the safety of it just
being play and that it's fun.
And I think that when there'splay, there's creativity and

(18:04):
it's fun.
It's creating that safe spacewhere the screw ups they don't
exist, because this is all inimagination and there's all that
opportunity to receive feedbackfrom that safe space and make
things better or discover newthings, which is this is really
powerful stuff, right?

Yeah, yeah, I have this kind of working theory
.
I wrote like an article aboutit a couple of weeks ago called
the Power of Imaginary Worlds,and it's this idea that
imaginary worlds are thought ofas like Harry Potter or Lord of
the Rings.
But what I think of imaginaryworld is more of a lower level

(18:46):
tool that we've developedthrough evolution, you know like
I think, a lot of peopleunderstand how important
storytelling is for humans, butI don't think a lot of people
understand how importantimaginary worlds are for humans.
So I think the difference to meis like an imaginary world is
not just the ability to tell anarrative but the ability to, in

(19:07):
our heads, generate like anenvironment that things can
happen in and you can seeconsequences, you can see
choices and actions and simulatethose things and play out
different environments.
And play out differentenvironments.
For example, I guess theearliest and most robust kind of

(19:28):
understanding of this is likeyou walk up to a bush that has
purple berries and you canspring up this imaginary world
inside of your head and you cansay, hey, don't eat the purple
berry.
It's this simulation that wecan run really quickly in our
head, an imaginary world that'sgot an evolutionary advantage
and so we've gotten really goodat it over many, many
generations.

(19:49):
And I think that thoseimaginary worlds still have just
amazing power for a few reasons.
The first reason is because youknow we can do it without any
like energy cost, we can justthink of it, we can communicate
and use language and we can allhave an imaginary world running
in our own heads at the sametime.
And the second reason isbecause it doesn't have to be

(20:12):
limited by, like, physicalconstraints.
It doesn't have to obey thelaws of physics, it doesn't have
to obey the laws of thetime-space continuum.
We can make up things likemagic and whatever, but we can
also do things like forecastwhat's going to happen in the
future and think about whathappens in the past, and I think
even like memory and planning,all those things are falling to

(20:36):
the spectrum of imaginary worldsthat we're making our heads,
and that's that's kind of why Ithink table of exercising or
table of games are such anamazing medium is because
they're probably the most nativeenvironment for an imaginary
world in your head, even more sothan like.

(20:57):
I think that's actually thereason why people like books
more than the movies is becausea book plays in your imaginary
world, in your head, like you'rethe director, like all the
characters look like you wantthem to look, all the dialogue
is delivered exactly how youwant it to be delivered, and
then the movie comes along.
And the movie might be thedirector's best interpretation

(21:19):
of their imaginary world intheir head, but it will never
match yours.
And your imaginary world inyour head has no budget.
It has no limitations.
Everything perfect?
yeah, I think I actually reallythink that's why books are
better than the movies.

Sara (21:33):
A lot of the time it's because imaginary worlds are
better than than when we try toproject them I think you're, I
think you have a point there,because, uh, we can envision
things and then to try to bringthem into reality, I I find like
if I'm trying to do somethingartistic, if I'm trying to do a
painting or anything, I havethese great ideas, even actually

(21:55):
last night I was playingtelestrations.
Do you know that game?

no, I know exactly what you mean.
It's like when you're trying todraw something and it's never
as good as what you thought youcould do in your head I was
trying to draw.

Sara (22:11):
You get a word and then you have to draw a picture and
you pass it on to the nextperson.
It's like a broken telephone.
It goes around in a big circleand I found myself.
The word that I had was Batman.
I'm like, oh, that's so simple,right?
So I go to draw a bat and I'mlike I can't draw a bat.
That doesn't really look like abat.
So I, I mean I pulled it off,but so I ended up doing the bat

(22:37):
and the and the and Batmanhimself, and I got it through.
But yeah, it just it's easy toforget how it can seem so simple
and so clear in my own mind,but when I go to draw it it
doesn't quite look the same.

That's not showing your limitations of your
drawing skills.
I think that's just showing,like, the power of your
imaginary worlds that you canspin up.
I think it's, but that'sexactly right.
Like, the imaginary worlds aresuper powerful.
You can apply tiny tweaks, youcan rewind, you can replay.
You can do so many things andyou know replay.
You can do so many things andyou know they can spin out of

(23:07):
control if you've got.
You know things like anxiety oryou know bad, negative
self-talk or something.
That's where imaginary worldpower can really spin off into
like bad directions, I think,because it's super powerful.
But it can get.
It could be used for evil aswell as good.
But if you look at the goodside, you get people who can tap
into that and really thinkabout really complex situations
and dynamic.

(23:28):
You know interpersonal thingsand you know in terms of
organizations very complicated,like marketplaces or you know,
industries, and formulate thesestrategic plans and stuff.
It's all like very complicatedbut the imaginary world can kind
of handle it.

Sara (23:44):
That's especially interesting.
So now I'm thinking about youhave, like you're reading a book
, you're being inspired by whatsomeone else wrote, you're
creating the imaginary world inyour mind based on what someone
has written on the paper.
But when you're doing like, whenyou're actually engaged with
other people and you're creatingthat world and you're creating
what happens in it together, inreal time, you're responding to

(24:05):
to all of those inputs and it'skind of like gelling together
all at once.
So it's even you don't justyou're not just having the
creativity of one person, you'rehaving creative creativity of
many persons, which is reallyinteresting.
And the other piece of that isthat you're sharing that with
everyone else, which, if you'retrying to figure out a strategy

(24:27):
or share a strategy like, one ofthe things that you need to do
to be successful with strategyis get it out there, share it
with as many people as possible,get everybody on the same page
as to what it is that yourstrategy is and help them really
understand it.
What could be more powerfulthan being immersed in
discussions around strategy witheveryone at the table?

You're not wrong, and you've hit on
something that's super importantfrom an organizational
perspective, which is like clearstrategy and clear branding,
like those really vague, hard todefine terms.
What they really boil down to isif everyone in an organization

(25:07):
really clearly understands thestrategy kind of just means that
, like everyone's imaginaryworld is aligned, like they all
know what the story is, what thenarrative is, what the goals
are of the organization, andthen they can, uh, if any kind
of situation comes up, they canunderstand what the values are
of that organization and whatthe you know, what the

(25:28):
organization as an organism as awhole, how it needs to move
forward through that thing.
And so it's this really clearconcept of character almost in
terms of an organization forstrategy and branding as well.
Branding is the clearest bestbrands are the ones that tell

(25:48):
the best branding and marketing.
People would like to use theword story.
In my mind it's they create thebest imaginary world so they're
able to get their image oftheir imaginary world like as
clear as possible for themselvesand then they articulate it
really well to others so thatother people, um, you know,
watching the same movie in theirheads, or you know, I mean like

(26:10):
I think they understand.

Sara (26:11):
It's really like we're getting very like academic here,
but I think that it's about theclearness and removing of the
fog of war, of that, of thatimaginary world that makes it
really clear in other people'sminds I think that if you really
commit to it and to get themost from the experience, you
have to be open to what thatexperience will bring you and

(26:35):
let go of the need to beperfect't make the best decision
or uh, or whatever.
But that also comes back to theskill of how it's being

(26:57):
facilitated, uh.
And then that there's that huge, like you said, that huge
learning opportunity of you,know that constant feedback and
how can you get better.
And yeah, I think that is partof the power of it, of all of of
it.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's pretty well known in
the games literature thatthere's different types of
players, right?
There are people who come to agame to try and win and just be
as game theory optimal aspossible.
There are people that are thereto be observers and to just
watch others and sit back andenjoy the story.
There are others that aresimilar to me that just like an

(27:33):
interesting narrative.
They just want interestingthings to happen.
So it's not so much aboutrolling Nat 20s all the time,
it's like Nat 1s are also kindof cool sometimes if it just
makes the story a bitinteresting.
Yeah, so I guess you've got tounderstand yourself and what you
come to the table for and likeif you come to be perfect.

(27:53):
It's not the place to come tobe perfect because, like it's,
the tool itself is designed tobe like not a perfect story.
It's designed to show um, thisis tabletop games I'm talking
about it's.
It's designed to be this likeplace where people can interact
and write, almost tell a storytogether and have that story be.

(28:14):
You know this weird soupy mixof improvisation as well as like
randomness from a dice and, youknow, inventiveness from a game
master.
So I don't know it's like notthe place to come to be perfect
and it's a hard lesson to learnfor a lot of new people, but
it's a safe environment and Ithink that concept of how safe

(28:36):
you can make your table reallylowers the barrier or the
defenses of people who get that.
You know, getting wrapped up inbeing perfect or making a
mistake or not doing the rightmove or something yeah, that's
one of the hardest things I haveto get over in the corporate
environment with games is likeyou know you're playing a game

(28:56):
with people who maybe have powerimbalances in their actual
workplace.
There's managers playing withyou know underlings and then you
have to like slowly.
You have to create this safetable where it's okay to just
like, make an error.
Like a lot of people don't wantto make mistakes because they're
in a corporate environment, youknow like they want to be
showing to do the right thingthe whole time.

(29:18):
But kind of the aim of thething is not to be perfect.
The aim of the thing sometimesis actually to stuff up and to
like recognize where that stuffup is before it happens in the
real world.
So it's a really hard thing todo to lower people's defenses.
But I think setting tableculture and setting the tone has
a lot to do with that.
It's very nuanced gamemastering, I think.

Sara (29:40):
I wanted to go into the game design piece.
You talked about having abackground in game design.

I'm an independent game designer that
has tinkered with stuff for along time and I would not call
myself a true and true gamedesigner.
I think that would be a wrongthing to say about myself for
all those people that have gonethrough many years of hard
training to become a through andthrough game designer.
But you know as much as someonecan be an enthusiast and be a

(30:07):
tinkerer, you know games are.
Games, are this cool mediumwhere it's more like I like to
think about it like an art morethan like a science.
There are definitely ways totrain yourself and learn things
and get you know, get better andknow the theories.
But at the same time it's alsoreally cool to experiment and to
you know, to homebrew stuff andto play around and test things.

(30:31):
And you know, some of the bestgames are created by people who
don't really have a backgroundin game design in a career sense
.
To be a hobbyist and be atinker is, I think, enough to
explore with game design.
Yeah, I mean it's a combinationof things.
So I think for me, I reallytake what I know from an
academic standpoint aroundbehavior change and decision

(30:53):
making and I apply that lens oftabletop gaming to be like okay,
well, this is how I know peopleare making decisions.
In this context, how do I createa game mechanic that can kind
of simulate that or what?
What is an environment that Icould create that would make an
interesting decision?
And how do we create mechanicsand box people in a situation

(31:17):
where it supports the kind ofchoices that I want this person
to make?
So it's more about the thinkingabout it.
I think that I like to do, but,like any game of anything, it's
a very dynamic environment.
People can do completely theopposite of what you think
they're going to do, and theyusually will yeah or well, you

(31:39):
give people boundaries and rulesand their immediate thing is
like, how do they?
the immediate thought that goesthrough people's head is like
how do I skirt close to this orhow do I like exploit this?
So you have to really thinkfrom their perspective and, um,
you know, try and break the thewalls and the boundaries that
you set up what kind of feedbackhave you had so far?

Sara (32:01):
from the course, or from the long game project, or from
the games that we run uh, from,I was thinking from the games
that you run, but any and all ofthe above yeah.

From the games that we run, the feedback is
always good.
So it's the hard thing isgetting people there.
And then the next hard thing isto get people immersed.
So if you can get people to thetable and if you can achieve
immersion and people feel likethey're there and they're

(32:30):
present, they almost always getsomething out of it and they
almost always have a good timeat least at least a good time
and fun, because it's differentand uh.
So yeah, that's the way I thinkabout it is the first damn wall
to break down is like convincingpeople that it's a worthwhile
use of their time, because busypeople in corporate environments

(32:52):
or bosses or whatever, orC-suite people they're very hard
to get three hours of theircalendar and even harder to get
three hours alongside four otherpeople's busy calendars.
So you've got to really workhard to convince them that this
thing is worth doing.
To all block out that time, todo at the same time.

(33:13):
That's the hardest part by amile.
Once that is done and they'reat the table and they haven't
cancelled on you last minute orwhatever, then you have to
create this setting at the tableand the table culture to make
sure they get immersed.
There's rules that you can putin place to achieve that.
But you know if you can seethem paying attention to the

(33:34):
game, trying to think about it,you know not looking at their
phone.

Sara (33:38):
Yeah.

You know you've got them.
You know, like there are thingsthat you can do in the home
game to make that happen as well.
You know, have props, havemusic, have dice rolls early.
Like you know, getting peoplein there and lowering the
barriers to contributing is likethe hard part, but then, once
they're there, they don't go outlike they don't.
No one is like immersed in thesituation and says I'm gonna

(34:00):
take a break here.
I check my emails or whatever.
Like everyone just wants tokeep going.

Sara (34:03):
Yeah and they want to.

They want to get something out of it.
So I think it's less about likethe, the scenario and game
design and it's actually moreabout immersing people and like
getting them in the situationand you know, all of those other
things are very important.
But if I could say the numberone thing that makes people feel
like they got something out ofit, it'll be like how immersed

(34:27):
and engaged they were in itimmersed and engaged.

Sara (34:34):
They were in it.
I like, too, what you saidabout like getting that
immersion dice rolls early,because that's something I
believe.
I mean it's not important foreveryone, but I just love dice
and give me a reason to roll andfoolishly, I will often take it
without thinking so it's a good, it's a, it's a good draw, and
I think there's something aboutthat, like that, that element of
luck and of like uh, of of theunknown, or the excitement of

(34:56):
something interesting orsomething good could happen from
this role yeah.

So a large part of what I have to do is I have
to kind of very quickly orientpeople to what the hell it
happens in the game, and I thinkthat that is the same process
that happens with people who arenew to like playing dnd.
Is you're like hey, I've heardabout this dnd, but like, how do
you play?

Sara (35:19):
like what do you?

actually do like what, what, what are the?
What are the moves that I make?
And so having a like the wayfrom a game designer's
perspective I think about.
That is like almost like in avideo game, where you have like
a really easy introductory levelwhere you're learning, like how
to press A and jump, and how topick up a stick and turn it
into a sword.
I just try and create thosesuper easy on-board ramps for

(35:43):
people to realize oh, that's howthis works.
Yeah, you know, like to justhave like a very simple
interaction at the very start,right at the top, and just like
isolate someone and call themout and then make them do a dice
roll and then you know, havethem, have them say a choice,
super simple choice that has noconsequences later down the line

(36:04):
have them do a dice roll andthen have them fail or succeed
yeah, yeah, yeah within like 30seconds or a minute everyone in
the room can understand oh,that's how this works oh yes, oh
yeah.

Sara (36:18):
That's how.

That's how this game works and so that that
that's how I like to do dnd.
If I'm ever like playing dndwith new people is I'll yeah get
them to introduce themselves,introduce their characters,
start to like break the ice andwarm up and then immediately
it's just like you've got tomake a check of some sort.
That's like completelyconsequence-less but fun and
like, yeah, having fun androlling dice and yeah you know,

(36:39):
yeah, just experimenting withthe world and seeing that, oh,
this world moves when I touch itah, yeah, yeah and that and
that.

Sara (36:48):
That just gets back to the uh, the importance of
creativity and and it just seemslike in our working days there.
Well, I guess it depends onwhat kind of job you do, but I
feel like I would just speakvery, very broadly, recognizing
that some people do verycreative work all the time, or
bring creative or are successfulin bringing creativity to work
that might not otherwise bedeemed to be creative, if I

(37:11):
could say it like that, but theopportunity to exercise
creativity is it's special, Ithink, and being able to go into
that with other people andenjoy it, I think it's important
and I think that sometimes,when we reason why this is so

(37:33):
interesting and why it has suchappeal, because it's also very

(37:55):
rewarding when you createsomething, it's rewarding right.

Yeah, so that's really cool Creativity.
It might be the last bastionthat we have over the computers
that we need to know how to tapinto In.
I think it's in all seriousness, I think it's like a super
important muscle to exercise,like creativity is a very

(38:20):
uniquely human thing.
To create something out ofnothing, or, you know, see a
connection between two thingsthat was never made before and
think about it.
It, uh, yeah, humans areamazing and creativity is
amazing, and it's the reason whywe're talking now over, you
know, internationally, over acamera with microphones.

(38:42):
It's, you know, like there'screativity is um, is a, is
amazing, it is, it's our manner,it's our magic, but we just
don't really know it.

Sara (38:51):
Yeah, yeah, and I think there's something also like
something that's been created,it doesn't really matter what it
was unless there's also someonethere to experience it, someone
to admire it, to respect it insome way or interact with it,
Because it doesn't matter what'screated if there's no one to
appreciate it.
So some people will say, say,oh, I I'm not very creative or I

(39:12):
can't do anything.
But if you have the ability tolook at something and say, oh, I
recognize something in this, tome that's also an aspect of it,
an important piece of it Ireally hate it when people say
they're not creative or, youknow, they're just not good at
doing.

They're just not creative like they're just,
that's just something they don'thave.
It's just, it's just so, nottrue.
Like everyone has differentversions of it and some people
are are very good at it in theway that it's very obvious, but
some people are very good in theway that's not very obvious,
you know, and I wish I wish that.
So I went through school andmostly did like sciences, right,

(39:49):
and I liked art, I was good atdrawing and I liked drama and I
was good at drama, but I neverchose those because they weren't
like they wouldn't get me intothe university course that I
wanted to get into, and I thinkthat that's because those
subjects try to fit this, theytry to fit in this box.
They're like a weird shapedthing that tries to be fitted

(40:12):
through a square shaped holeright, and like science,
sciences and maths, they havelike really clear things to
learn, very robust, like uh,almost functions that you can do
to get the right answer.
There is like a correct answerand an incorrect answer.
But in things like drama andcreative arts and, you know,

(40:34):
drawing, there's not a, there'snot a right answer nor there is
a wrong answer.
there's this like spectrum ofthings that can exist and what
they try to do is ascertain yourthinking and how you're
thinking about the the thing.
Like you know, in drama orschool it's about how the
process was arriving at thispiece, like what's the?

(40:56):
You know what's the conceptbehind this piece of art, and
that's okay, but it's justtrying to fit a report card
right.
Like we're still like teachingpeople from such a young age
that there's this like right andwrong way to be creative and
there's really not.
And I really hate it whenpeople say they're not creative,

(41:17):
because I think someone oncetold them you get a bad grade in
creativity and I was like Ireally wish that we didn't do
that because it's a hard lessonto unlearn.

Sara (41:27):
Absolutely, absolutely.

Actually, one of the people that was playing
in telestrations last night isactively trying to unlearn that
lesson yeah, I think, likepeople who say they aren't
creative, don't recognize whatcreative people go through to
achieve the finished product ofwhatever it is they're creating,
like people who are, you know,create amazing paintings or
amazing videos or amazing art oramazing music um sure, sure,

(41:52):
they have a skill that they'vepracticed forever, that they're
very proficient at.
But to achieve like a finishedthing, or a finished drawing or
finished movie or whatever, youhave to go through so many like
iterations scratch that, do thisagain, re-edit this re-record.
That rewrite this re-record.
Oh, I didn't like the way thatthat was done.

(42:12):
Go do that again.
You know, take this techniquethat I learned from someone else
, apply it, change it yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not like a straight line,like it's not, yeah, yeah yeah,
it never is.
And then eventually you end upwith something that's like kind
of how you think you wanted it.
But I think people who don'tpractice creativity just don't

(42:35):
recognize that someone doesn'tsit down and start drawing like
a printer.
You know, like it doesn't worklike that.
I think it was like I think Icompletely could be misquoting
someone here, but I think it wasVincent van Gogh who said like
you know, I never finished apainting, I just stopped drawing
.

Sara (42:55):
I think that creativity is so.
It is so rewarding andimportant.

Look, tabletop gaming is like such a low bar of
entry to a high level ofcreativity in the environment
Like you're going from.
Like literally all thepreparation you have to do as a
player is like kind ofunderstand how the game works,
kind of write a character sheetand then you step into this

(43:23):
environment.
That's like a multi-personenvironment.
That's like kind of writing,writing, kind of drama and
acting.
You know it's physical.
If you have minis or drawing orwhatever you're doing else.
It's this like highly creativeenvironment that you're stepping
in and it has such a low bar tojust like participate in.

(43:45):
All you've got to do is likestep into it and then just like
lower your defenses.
That's the only two things youhave to do and you can find
yourself in this amazingcreative world that like for me
anyway, hits all the buttons inmy brain.
That's like you know immersive,creative, you know flow, state.
It's just such a cool thing andlike that's why I think people
get so like obsessive about itis because it's this, this world

(44:08):
that exists.
This is pure creativity andit's this world that exists.
This is pure creativity.
And it's such a low bar.
To get there you don't have tobe an expert at anything, you
don't have to.
You can get better at it, butto be there and have fun is
really like, not it's veryachievable for anyone.
So I think it's and it'smultiplayer Like that's the
other thing.
You can share that creativitywith others, you can retell that

(44:29):
story and to have that amazingexperience it's not like you
know, sitting in an artelierpainting by yourself.
It's, it's multiplayer and it'sterrible, so it's social as
well.
It's.
It's so good like I wish morepeople did it yeah, me too.

Sara (44:43):
Me too, I I've.
It's one of my goals tointroduce a few new players to
dnd and create some structurearound that.
So I I think I will be dippingfurther into your course and
using that for some inspiration.
It'd be nice to be able toactually talk about that.
This is what I learned.

I'll report back to you when.

Sara (45:00):
I get around to that.

My main North Star with this mission is to
improve people's decision-makingand hopefully make the world a
better place by, like, avoidingcatastrophes and making better
people better at, like you knowuh, governance decisions.

Sara (45:16):
But my second goal is to just like trojan horse, like
role-playing table of games,into every workplace I think
that's a like a totally noblecause, and I'm finding that
there are a number of peoplethat are interested at my
workplace, like either hardcore,already play, have, like you
know, a thousand books of allthe game systems that they never

(45:37):
have time to play, and thenthere's the people that are just
curious and are a littleintimidated because it just
seems like so much to get intoit.
But we'll get to them, yep.

It's just a bit of meeting, that's all it is.

Sara (45:51):
I have a few more questions for you if you don't
mind.
Can I?
Uh, can I ask you like, whatwas the?
What is your favorite gamesystem?

oh man, that is so hard.
Um, I think fifth edition dndbecause it's such a
well-designed system to onboardnew players and also to simulate
fantasy worlds so easily.

(46:23):
I think that there's a reasonwhy it's the most popular, and
not just because it has thehighest marketing budget.
It's because it's very, it'svery good, it's very good at
like picking up, picking peopleup, taking them along, make it
very easy for the game master todesign easy games and run
people through easy scenarios.

(46:43):
Um, it does have its likelimitations, but for the
majority of people it worksreally well for tabletop
role-playing games and, um, youknow, I think that it's, I think
hats off to them.
And I think it's marvelous thatthey've put the like system
reference document, the mainrules in the creative commons

(47:03):
now, so forever and ever.
What that means is that peoplecan take it and remix it and
take those rules and make itinto different things, and it's
basically gone from a, anintellectual property piece, to
just like a modular piece thatexists within the architecture
of the broader world.
So for me, like fifth editiontable, fifth edition dnd is like

(47:26):
a building block and it's sucha, it's such a rock of a
building block like you cantwist it and change it in so
many different ways.
I think it's fantastic.
I and it's such a rock of abuilding block Like you can
twist it and change it in somany different ways.
I think it's fantastic.
I think it's such a good.
The D20 roll for a check islike such a pure amazing way to
simulate anything in anyenvironment and I love it and I

(47:48):
use it in all of like the thingsthat I do with tabletop
exercising.
It's such a good way to resolveanything that can happen in an
environment from a game systemperspective.
I just think it's genius and Ithink it's such a clean, amazing
thing that once you understand,it's very simple to do and it's
just a great system.

(48:10):
I think it's just really good.

Sara (48:13):
So do you play homebrew or modules?

now I homebrew a lot of stuff if I play yeah,
yeah but it's before.
I did that.
Like I still sometimes justlike get a module.
That thing's kind of cool and Ijust like pick pieces and chop
and change it.
The way I like to do modules isI like to get the setting and
then the players at the table.
I ask them, like who they wantto be, what kind of characters
they want to be, and then afterI get those initial drafts of

(48:39):
their characters back, if I'mplaying a module, I'll look at
the module and see how thosepeople would fit into the world
and I might substitute maincharacters in that model for
their character, in that modelfor their character, or I might
add different things or givethem specific ties to pieces in
the module.
I'll change the module to fitthem.
I won't change them to fit themodule, if that makes sense.

Sara (48:59):
Oh, I love that, I love that.
Yeah, that's the whole yes andconcept.

Exactly, exactly yeah.

Sara (49:07):
Was D&D the first game that you ever played like in
terms of role-playing games?

Yes, very loosely.
I mean I got a.
I took the bus for 30 minuteswhen I was a 11 year old from my
house down to the local gameshop and I got a secondhand copy
of the D&D player's guide and Iused to sit there with my two
friends when we were, like youknow, in fifth grade or

(49:31):
something and we used to justlike.
We literally just used to playmake believe and look at the
pictures for inspiration.
So if you call that playing D&D, I think that's like, which is
kind of what I still do for ajob now, but you know it's it
was.
You know we read the books andas we grew older we incorporated
the rules that we thought werecool, but we were very loose,

(49:55):
very fast and loose with therule system.
But I actually think that'slike the best way to start and I
have a little daughter now andI definitely want to play like
make-believe with her, with her,and I think that, um, it's just

(50:15):
so easy to transition makebelieve into like, adding rule
systems underneath it so that itbecomes a bit more like
structured, and that's just howyou, that's just how you
transition into like games andimaginary worlds is like you
start as a kid really early, andthen you gradually add
complexity.
So yeah&D was my first liketabletop game system, but I
loved.
I was just like a superenergetic kid that loved playing

(50:37):
make-believe.
So I think that was my firstgame system was just like
theater of the mind and teddies.

Sara (50:45):
What does your gaming look like today?

I guess from a job perspective.
Now I'm reading a lot of I'mthinking very high level.
So it's thinking really abouthow tabletop games exist within
our society.
How do we use them?
What are they as a tool?
It's getting very like.
My thinking now is, and myrelationship now to tabletop

(51:08):
games is very like theoretical,you know, like I'm thinking what
is a game system?
But what is a?
What is a dice?
You know, how do we simulatethis thing?
Um, yeah, so look, I thinkabout it very high level, like
how do people interface withtabletop games?
Like why is there a hesitancyfor people to think about games

(51:31):
as a serious tool?
How do I break down barriersfor people in the workplace to
play more games as a serioustool?
How do I convince people who doplay games outside of the
workplace that it's totally okayto play games in the workplace
if you do it the right way?
Why is there cultural barriersthere?
These are all the questionsthat ping around in my head now

(51:54):
and then getting a bit crunchier, reading a lot about game
systems.
I try to keep up with what'scoming out in terms of
innovations in the researchspace on tabletop games and also
from a commercial perspective,what games and modules are
coming out, what interesting newmechanics there are.

(52:15):
And then from a contentperspective and a fun
perspective, I guess I like tosee what cool blending.
I think that the coolest thingfor me at the moment in the
world of tabletop games is justlike the blending of genres and
the blending of different typesof people playing it.
Like you know, tabletop gamesfor so long have been this

(52:38):
eurocentric, male dominated,fantasy talkiness kind of world
and it's really cool to see themfollow the wider literature now
in fantasy and sci-fi to expandinto like these new kind of
genres on the margin you know,that are like the edge of the

(52:58):
frontier of the globalzeitgeist's imaginary world.
Like I think we're expandingour imaginary world as a culture
and society, as we, you know,bring more and more different
and diverse people into it andseeing what those people on the
edges are thinking about is isreally interesting for me at the
moment.
So you know I love I've loved afew game systems that are like

(53:21):
developed out of like africanmythology and about seeing
what's there on the frontier forpeople who are exploring
sexuality through tabletop gamesand to think about, to see how
those people see the world andto then see, as a result of that
, what kind of systems theycreate, what kind of context

(53:42):
they create, what kind ofculture that they want to bring
into the world of tabletop game.
I'm super excited about thatfrontier at the moment because
the center of the robust spherein tabletop gaming is really
robust, but it lacks thatdiversity.
And with that diversity comesiteration on rules and concepts

(54:04):
and systems, and that's theexciting part for me at the
moment.
So that's, I've answered yourquestion for too long because
I'm getting too excited about it.
But so that's where my like,that's where I spend my, if I'm
doing free time reading, if I'mdoing actual playing, at the
moment I like to try and tinkerwith stuff in that space.
So at the moment I'm I like totry and get my friends who are

(54:27):
you lot of D&D but don't maybehave a lot of time to sit down
and do a new system.
I'll take the time to bring anew parts of systems into a D&D
game.
So that's how I like to Trojanhorse others into this frontier,
as well as to bring topics andsystems and rules into our D&D
world and just experiment.

Sara (54:49):
That's very clever.
I have a small group that I gettogether with when we talk
about all things games and theytry and introduce me to
different games and Powered bythe Apocalypse comes up a lot.
But it's interesting.
This idea of and actually PBTAis very good for getting you
going very fast and having tomake hard choices very quickly.

(55:12):
So getting into that placewhere things matter happens.
For me anyway, it happened veryquickly.
But I like also what you saidabout having that curiosity
about what are other peopledoing, where is the space going
about?
What are other people doing,where is the space going?
And I think that that alsoseems to be a trait that I'm
seeing in people that are reallyinterested in the games or make

(55:33):
some of the best game masters.
Like they are very curious.
Like how did we get here?
What does history say, what isnew, what is coming and what are
you interested in?
Like it doesn't matter wherethe curiosity is pointed, just
the fact of being curious.
It doesn't matter where thecuriosity is pointed, just the
fact of being curious, and Ithink that that curiosity and
creativity, I think, must beco-related in some way.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're spot on there.
I think there's definitely arelationship.
So, yeah, those are the thingsthat like grab my attention are
the people who are making gamesor experimenting with building a
campaign or a world setting ora system that is kind of on the
margins, you know, like notcrazy experimental, but just

(56:13):
like thinking about a topic or aconcept and being like, well,
what does that look like in atabletop game or a system or a
setting?

Sara (56:22):
Yeah, yeah, going back to this group that I have that we
talk games.
We were recently meeting andtalking about D&D and it's the
many lives of D&D.
It's evolved a lot since it wasfirst conceived of One of the
people that I invited into thatconversation.
She's done a lot of research onthe new D&D or the one D&D that

(56:45):
they're working on.
I'm not sure how much you'velooked into that.

Yeah, I think they're essentially just taking
some of the well, they're addinga bit, but they're taking
nothing from the core.
Like things that are good aregoing to change too much.
I think they're just going tochange a few things that people
have had gripes with over thetime being, and I don't expect
the core experience to changetoo much.
I think expect the coreexperience to change too much.

(57:09):
I think that's just animprovement, more than anything.
Like if you're looking at itfrom a corporate perspective to
put my like you know businessstrategy hat on, like if you're
wizards of the coast, like whythe hell would you change
something that's working so well?
I think the only thing that youwould do is like remarket it
and repackage it.
You know, like, and maybe justyeah, I was them what I would be
doing is taking the things thatare working don't change the
magic bits that are the bestparts and just change the bits

(57:33):
that aren't working so well andthen repackage it like you're
bringing out a whole new thing.
But really it's just like apoint.
You know, 1.5e.1.2 is how Ithink about it in my head.
So I think like it's more of a.
You know, 1.5e.1.2 is how Ithink about it in my head.
So I think like it's more of ayou know, how do we make this
not get stale, but also how dowe, you know, keep the good

(57:55):
thing going and how do we keepour market share where it is.
But that's a very like cynical,like take, but also like I
think that's kind of where theirminds would be, but on the same
thing, I think they understandlike cynical, like take, but
also like I think that's kind ofwhere their minds would be, but
on the same thing, I think theyunderstand.
I mean, like they should besmart enough to understand the
strategy and around being thecornerstone of the industry and

(58:18):
having people take your thing asa remixing agent and then going
forward.
So I think they now understandthat.
You know, bringing their corerule set into the creative
commons is super important forthird publishers and for people
who take the game and stream anddo their own thing with it and

(58:38):
create from it.
They hopefully understand thatthe long tail of the people that
enjoy their product is whythey're so successful.
Like that's why people find itis because they watch it on
twitch and play it themselves.
And you know, people who wantto make game systems can easily
remix it, and I think they'rereally smart in in bringing

(58:59):
their rules into the creativecommons, because they've
essentially made their core, thecore thing about dnd that's so
good.
They've made into an ingredientinstead of, like you know, a
piece of intellectual propertythat we own.
They've made it into somethingyou can take for free and add it
into your own recipe.

(59:31):
Brilliant from a product thatrelies on social connections and
and social sharing, and youknow people being creative and
like they're basically, yeah, Ithink they've done the right
thing and I think their strategyis pretty solid and hopefully
they can be like the vanilla icecream if people's like
experiencing a tabletoprole-playing games and that,
they should be okay with thatand they should really be
focusing on growing the wholepie instead of growing their
share of the pie there's so manyplayers out there that can add

(59:53):
to it right in terms of, like,little add-ons and rules yeah, I
really hope they see themselvesnot as like a competitor to
like, um, kobold press orsomething that relies on you
know, their, their, uh, theirwork.
They should see themselves aslike a you know a tree that can
supply extra, extra fruit topeople who are also in the

(01:00:17):
forest and the forest themselves.
The whole forest needs to getbigger I think it's symbiotic.

Sara (01:00:23):
I think cobalt press and some of these others they others
.
They also create the raisond'etre for having some of the
core rules and the culturearound it, and all that as well.
So, yeah, I think Long GameProject is a very exciting
project.
I think it has a hugeapplication.

(01:00:45):
I know that you've been postinga lot of different scenarios.
There's the Discord serveravailable for it as well.
Lots of different scenarios tolook at there.
Such wide appeal, tabletopplaying for corporate use or for
any kind of problem solving or,like you said, pandemic
exercise or whatever, as well asjust enriching day-to-day

(01:01:06):
tabletop role-playing gameplay.
What else can we say?
Is there anything that wehaven't touched on today that
you would still like to speak to?

Dr. Dan Epstein (01:01:15):
If people want to reach out to me, they
definitely can on LinkedIn andTwitter.
If you want to follow the LongGame Project, we're
longgameprojectorg, or you canfind us on all the socials at
longgameproject.
If you want to do the course,that's the thing that we're
really trying to get a lot morepeople to go do.
It's completely free.
Took us a long time to produce.
Hopefully there's some funthings to go doing it.

(01:01:37):
Throughout the thing you mightlearn something.
It's really for anyone whowants to play a game and try to
think about what that game wouldlook like if that would bring
it to work.
And so you know, building thebuilding, the culture of
practices that may name of thegame at the moment.
So if you're listening to this,you probably are interested in
tabletop games and, yeah, we'dlove to love to kind of upskill

(01:02:00):
you to try and bring thoseskills that you have to work
skills that you have to workAwesome.

Sara (01:02:05):
Thank you so much, dr Dan.
This has been awesome.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
This concludes episode nine ofthe A Role to Play podcast.
Be sure to head over tocourseslonggameprojectorg and
sign up for the free Foundationsof Tabletop Exercising course.
You'll find lots of resourceson the website and you can

(01:02:32):
connect to the Discord communityfor even more.
A Role to Play is an untameddandelion production.
Thanks for listening.
Until next time.
Make a wish, dream it true.
Can I divert you for a momentand take you to another world?
most definitely I'm just playingnow and I have no idea how this

(01:02:53):
goes, so forgive me as I figureit out, but uh, not really well
rehearsed.
We've spent the whole timetalking about imaginary worlds,
so we should end one ourselvesthere it is is and you find
yourself on this path, this roadthat is seldom traveled, and

(01:03:14):
there is a wagon that's brokendown just in front of you.
The birds are singing it's asign that things are relatively
peaceful and you see this oldwoman just talking to herself
and she's doing something, andas you approach, it's as if she
doesn't know that you're there.
She gives no sign and you'reabout 20 feet away.

(01:03:36):
What do you do?

Is she?
Okay?
She's talking to herself.

Sara (01:03:45):
I heard that, well laddie, you may as well come up here
and show yourself.
Then.

And she turns around and she, she looks at you
and she says yes, I'm alone, soI guess I look left and right
and I approach very cautiouslyoh, I won't hurt, hurt you.

Sara (01:04:06):
Oh, aren't you the curious type?
What brings you here today?

Are you okay?
Your wagon's broken down.

Sara (01:04:17):
Is it?

I look at the broken wheel on the ground.

Sara (01:04:24):
And you see that it's actually like the wheel is
broken and you see the the waythat the grass is growing up
around it.
It's like this wagon has notmoved in a very long time, not
in a very long time.
So she just kind of looks oh,look at that, it is broken does
she smell?

can I smell what she smells like?

Sara (01:04:48):
Let's be kind here and say she doesn't smell bad.
She actually has a little bitof like.
There's a hint of smoke fromthe fire and there is some kind
of like an incense.
It's a little bit exotic.
It's like something not reallyfrom around here, uh, and it's

(01:05:09):
uh like there's a bit of acinnamon smell and, um, yeah,
like cinnamon and clove, uh, aswell as uh, like you're smelling
this in the forest, and there'sa bit of like pine scent in the
background.
It's weird juxtaposition ofthese scents.
Actually, now that you, nowthat you mention it and you're
just at the time of daylistening to you describe this

(01:05:30):
well, she does have the pot onis.
Oh I, I heard that your stomachis rumbling, sir.
Would you do it?
It it seems that I'm not goinganywhere and perhaps you would
like a meal she's giving me uh,she's giving me um sweet bun
vibes that she's a baker.
So, I take a step closer.

(01:05:51):
Well, don't be scared, I won'thurt you.
I won't hurt you.
I pat my pocket for coins andyou do see, she does have a fire
.
She's got some kind of a stewon and she's got some food there
and it's all laid out and likeshe's got like the shakers and

(01:06:13):
she's like just adding somespice, and you know the classic
with the ladle, and like itsmells so good, so, and she says
just be a couple of minutes,and so like I'm going to just
sort of fast forward the sceneand say like, do you, do you
accept her invitation for dinner?

oh yeah, I sit down okay, cool, uh.

Sara (01:06:32):
So so you have a seat and and she, she offers you an
amazing meal and she says so, um, so there you seem to, uh, you
have that.
Look about you like you're,you're going somewhere and
you've, you've, you've come fromsomewhere.
I don't know much about you,but I can tell there's something
do I know where I've come from?
Uh, you have it's hazy, butyou've come from this world I

(01:06:59):
say yes, I am hungry, I'mtraveling.

I think that's why I'm here.

Sara (01:07:06):
Hmm, I think there's something more.
I think you're on a path, sir.
I can see destiny in your eyes.
Dare you draw, and she pullsout some cards and she's got
like the table is clear in frontof her and one second and yeah,

(01:07:33):
and the cards they look uh,oops, see if I can get them out
here.
They look like this whoa theylook like this okay I'm very,
very interested yeah, I say I'lldraw you'll draw, will you?
will you draw from the originaldeck or will you draw from the

(01:07:55):
all, from the many of the many?
whoa, what a choice um 13b, theoriginal number I think the
original the original more woethan wheel.
But you are brave so I look.
I look at the soup I think, Ithink of the soups, how the

(01:08:18):
soup's going and the soup looksamazing and it tastes amazing
and and, and just for a moment,like there's something that that
shifts in it and it's like butit's not, it doesn't, it's not
disturbing, it's actually um isit crouton or a frog?
yeah, exactly so your mindthinks frog, right, but it's

(01:08:39):
more like.
It's more like the crouton andit's just this, uh, this white
glow, it's almost like.
It's almost like if gummy bearsbelonged in soup.
It's like that's how it wouldlook, but it's still.
The croutons are nice andcrunchy but there is this little
spark of a glow.
It just makes you happy whenyou see it and you feel like
you're eating this and that asyou eat this soup, it's

(01:09:03):
nurturing more than just yourphysical body.

All right, draw me up.

Sara (01:09:09):
All right.
So she pulls out the deck andshe shuffles the cards and she
says and of this 13,.

Then, so, is this my payment?
Like do I?

Sara (01:09:24):
this is your deal.

Like I get to, I get to have soup and you get
to, like, play some kind of gamewith me.
You need, you need a player.
That's my payment.

Sara (01:09:35):
I can't help my curiosity and you just seem so full of
story.
Pardon me for wanting to knowokay, and then she lays out the
cards, just like this, and sheasks you how many you will draw,

(01:09:58):
how?
Many I'll draw yeah, first howmany I?

how many?
I'm going to say three.
I'm going to do the one, thatis, I'm going to just go far
right, far left, and the onethat's poking up in the middle.

Sara (01:10:18):
Okay, far left actually is off the screen.
Do you want me to bring it backinto what's in?

Whatever's the furthest left, and that one
that's poking up in the thefurthest left, furthest left.

Sara (01:10:27):
Okay, and this one here, all right.

I slip soup Anxiously Like an old man's
anxiously sipping soup.

Sara (01:10:42):
There's lots of soup, dear , don't worry.

I'm not going to make those sounds with a
microphone, because people willget shoes on their back.

Sara (01:10:53):
poking, so true, so true, all right.
Well, you be in luck, sir.
You have the help of the knight, is on your side and you need

(01:11:20):
his help, for I see ruin, oh God, and the throne.
I knew you had an interestingfate.

(01:11:41):
And she studies the cards.

I put down my spoon.
He's the card.
Who is that?

Sara (01:11:51):
No, no, sir, no, no.

Can I take it back?

Sara (01:11:57):
No, I'm afraid the cards are drawn and the story must be
told.
This is what's coming.

I close my eyes and lean my chair back into a
trustful position

Sara (01:12:14):
fear, not, fear, not ruin.
Is u soon behind you, the Knightwill take you forward and the
throne is ultimately yours.
It is not ru a funny thing,they say For what you give up Is
also the weight of what was,for what can be gained For what

(01:12:36):
is to come.
And I see you having greatsupport from the Knight who will
meet you yonder.
When you go back to whence youcame, you will find that there
is a Knight working with you whowill help lead you to this
place and you will be Crownedthe King of the game.
Yes, yes, yes, dear.

(01:13:01):
This is, this is very good.

Thank you, christian Bach.

Sara (01:13:12):
Well, you know, sir, that any game always has its
challenge.
It's not that you play andeverything comes easy, it's that
you know there is that fortuneto be told and there is that
challenge to be overcome, andthere are the companions who
will help you on that way, andthere is the success that you
achieve in the end, and I do seethat for you.

I like this story.

Sara (01:13:36):
I like it too.

I was going to say when can I go home as the
sun starts setting?
Can I go home as the sun startssetting.
Are you finished your soup?

Sara (01:13:52):
Yeah, no worries.

I look at the half-finished soup.

Sara (01:13:57):
Yes, oh, there, there, there, there.
Take this potion and drink itin the time of your need.

And a periapt.
.
.
.

Sara (01:14:10):
Thank you, yes, yes, and it will empower you as the soup,
you have.
All that you need, all that youneed you found it right here.
You found it right here.
All you need, and more.
All you need do now is believe.
And with that she sends youback.

Whoa, it's like I never left the podcast studio
.
I had this weird dream.

Sara (01:14:39):
Did you?

Yeah, there was a frog crouton, it was like
this old lady.
She said she'd just broken down, but there was like no mechanic
anywhere.
The grass was like growing upin her car and then she gave me
some soup and kind of played agame with me and then told me
that I'd be back here and thatsome night would take me to the
promised land.
I don't know.

(01:15:01):
I

Sara (01:15:03):
Well, it sounds good to me .
It sounds very promising.
I think you're going to dogreat yeah.

Awesome, awesome.
I'm excited.

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