February 3, 2025 • 54 mins
Join us as we engage in a deep exploration of the existence of God, weaving through the intricate tapestry of religion, philosophy, and personal convictions. Starting with the intriguing narrative of public figures like Donald Trump interpreting divine will in their lives, we each reveal our own perspectives on what constitutes compelling proof of God's presence. As we navigate these spiritual waters, we uncover the shared and unique elements that sustain our faith and motivate our spiritual journeys.
The enigmatic order of the universe comes into sharp focus as we discuss the intersection of philosophy, mathematics, and faith. Reflecting on thinkers like Thomas Aquinas and Albert Einstein, we question whether the cosmos' beauty is an accidental marvel or a deliberate design.
Delving into concepts like perfect forms and the Pythagorean theorem, we ponder the capacity of the human mind to discern external order and how this recognition plays into our belief in a higher power. Through this lens, we explore the choices that lead us towards belief, even amidst skepticism.
Bringing our discussion full circle, we reflect on the rationality of different religions and the universal human quest for meaning. Through personal anecdotes and philosophical reflections, we emphasize the power of faith to provide purpose and hope, contrasting it with a life devoid of spiritual meaning.
We touch on fundamental existential questions that every human faces, suggesting that belief in an intelligent designer offers a coherent framework for understanding life's mysteries. As we wrap up, we delve into the cultural significance of religious ceremonies, inviting you to reflect on your beliefs and embark on your own spiritual journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Stop, what's that sound?
Everybody, look what's goingdown.
Lines being drawn.
Nobody's right If everybody'swrong.
(00:51):
People speak in their mind.
I didn't need so muchresistance From behind.
Stop what's that sound.
Everybody, look what's goingdown.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I don't think we're on.
I don't think we're on.
I can hear myself.
I can Well.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
it's Show of Faith where professor priest
millennial and rabbi discusstheology and philosophy and
anything else of interest inreligion.
Oh, it's Show of Faith, whereProfessor, priests, millennial
and Rabbi discuss theology andphilosophy and anything else of
interest in religion.
You have any response to ourtopics or any comments regarding
what we say?
Hey, we'd love to hear from you.
Please email us atashowoffaithathotmailcom.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening pretty
much anywhere podcasts are heard.
(01:42):
Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo,retired pastor of St Cyril of
Alexandria in the 10,000 blockof Westheimer.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, hello there.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Our professor is David Capes, baptist minister
and director of academicprogramming for the Lanier
Theological Library, butunfortunately could not make it
with us tonight.
Rudy Cohn is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer, hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of St Thomas.
I am Rabbi Stuart Federo, rabbiEmeritus of Congregation Sha'ar
(02:15):
HaShalom in the Clear Lake areaof Houston, texas.
Corey and Miranda are boardoperators, but tonight Nikki is
filling in and together, mirandaand Corey and Nikki, help us
sound fantastic.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Hopefully.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I'm sure, and tonight Rudy is our show director.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Rudy are you there?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I am there, he is.
Take it away.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Hey, okay, okay.
So I know last week we had a.
I think we had a pretty goodconversation and it got me to
thinking.
We were talking about sort ofpresidential religion, right,
and how different people caninterpret sort of the will of
(03:05):
God, right, the things thathappen, the things that don't
happen.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And we were talking because of Trump's
interpretation of his attemptedassassination.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Exactly, and his claim that he was, you know,
left alive so he could run forpresident, and it got me
thinking.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat leave people right,
because, I mean, even Trump'sbelief is sort of based on a
particular understanding that hehas on religion, on a higher
(03:40):
power, on what essentiallycreated this whole thing right,
and so I wanted to talk a littlebit about and from each of us'
perspective I wanted to talkabout what each of us thinks is
(04:02):
how could I say this?
What each of us thinks is thebest proof for a God that we
have Right.
So Trump's belief that whathappened, right, the
assassination attempt has someunderlying criteria, right, that
goes with it.
So he's able to associate thatwith a belief system that's
(04:26):
already there.
So, from our perspective, Ithink we all have these same,
and not that, I think we do allhave these same sort of
underlying perspectives, and Ithink there's a lot that we have
in common.
There's obviously a lot that wehave different, but
fundamentally, I think we allsort of reach a consensus in
(04:49):
different ways for what we thinkis sort of in our life and
experience the proof of God.
So what I really wanted to talkabout is and I can go first if
you guys don't mind or ifsomebody else wants to share.
But I want to talk about whateach of us thinks is the most
(05:14):
sort of unquestionable fact ormost unquestionable way that we
believe in God and why we thinkthat there is, without a shadow
of a doubt, the existence of God.
And then, as sort of the secondhalf of the show I wanted to
talk about, what is it aboutthis belief, or what is it about
our particular faith that keepsus motivated in that belief.
(05:38):
I don't know if I'm sort ofmaking any sense, but yeah, I
think so.
Yeah, okay, so you go first rudy, so I guess okay, I'll kick it
off because I I, of course, Imean I've studied engineer,
engineering, and I kind of froma, from a young, from a young
(06:00):
whiffer snapper.
Um, I remember as a teenager 15, 16 years old I remember
picking up the Summa Theologiae,and this is a book written by
Thomas Aquinas, St ThomasAquinas, where he goes through a
lot of different proofs and oneof the things that really
struck me there's this sectionand he talks a lot about these
(06:25):
created forms and potentiality,and it gets pretty philosophical
, right.
And now I would say, later onin life, that I've studied it
more.
It makes.
When I read somebody likeAristotle, Plato, it makes more
sense.
But I think it's because I'vebeen sort of trained, I've been
(06:48):
exposed to it.
I mean I could even make theargue, I don't know, maybe my
brain's more developed or not.
I mean they say that men'sbrains don't finish developing
until they're like 28 or 29 orsomething like that, right, 29
(07:08):
or something like that right.
But one of the things that Iremember reading was this
concept of the perfect form,right, and whenever we think of
geometry, okay and we think offorms let's say a circle then we
have in our minds, right, thereexists this concept of a circle
, okay, and we can draw a circleand we can construct a circle,
(07:32):
or we can make it out of dirt,we can make a sphere, but there
exists this ideal circle, shapeor circle form, if you will.
Now, as a Catholic, I wouldsort of extrapolate that and say
, okay, there's human beings andof course our belief is that,
(07:53):
well, Jesus Christ is that idealhuman being right?
So to me, when I think aboutthese and I'm going to go back
to the geometry now but there'scertain things about geometry
and there's certain things aboutmath that stand above, let's
say, the particularunderstanding of a human being.
(08:15):
And what do I mean by that?
I mean that.
So, for example, thePythagorean theorem, right,
which was quote-unquote, and Isay this loosely, the theorem
sort of first deposited byPythagoras, and A squared plus B
squared equals C squared, ishow you sort of make the
(08:37):
dimensions of a triangle, yeah,Okay.
Now it doesn't matter ifPythagoras was Greek or Indian
or African or American, itdoesn't matter.
The Pythagorean theorem, thatsequence of variables that add
up to this type of triangle, aretrue no matter what language,
(09:00):
no matter what region, no matterwhat time, it just doesn't
change, okay.
And so across sort ofmathematical principles which I
would say are seen in nature.
Right, Because we can look atnature and see things.
We can see objects, we can seeforms, we can see geometric
(09:21):
shapes, forms, we can seegeometric shapes.
The Greeks understood it, since, I mean, Plato wrote about it,
Euclid wrote about it, sothere's a lot of authors that
have written about this.
But there's these concepts thatstand outside of space and time
.
So when I think about thesethings and I think about nature
(09:44):
and I think about what can beobserved, there's an
intelligibility About things,right, Like things can be
understood Regardless of when weare in space and time.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I think that that reminds me of Einstein, Because
Einstein Was the one who saidthat the thing that most
impressed him about the universeis that it was understandable,
that it was intelligible.
And it's very interestingbecause, see, think about it If
(10:19):
everything is an accident let'ssay the Big Bang was all an
accident, which I can arguelater when you have an explosion
anywhere, you don't get anintelligible distribution of
what exploded, you just getrandom.
If your house exploded, youwouldn't expect to find all your
(10:42):
pictures in one place, yourdishes in another.
You wouldn't expectorganization.
Find all your pictures in oneplace, your dishes in another?
You wouldn't expectorganization, because
organization is a sign ofintelligibility.
And so that's basically whatyou're saying, right?
Speaker 5 (10:55):
Yeah, in essence, and the fact that it can be
observed across space and time,so it doesn't matter whether it
was 2,000 years ago or tomorrow.
Yeah, these same things can beobserved under different
cultures, under differentlanguages, by different people.
So there's somethingquote-unquote objective about
(11:18):
this right that kind of sitsoutside of the creation of the
human mind.
That's correct.
Okay, it exists outside of it,and I think that's.
I mean, there's other proofs,right.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, but you know, the human mind, the very fact
that the human mind matches theexternal organization of the
world, in other words, that therationality, the rational
organization that exists, likerudy's saying objectively, the
fact that we can perceive thatobjectivity is, isn't, isn't of
(11:53):
itself a tremendous thing.
Because, I can tell you, one ofthe things that I I'm
constantly marveling at is, Ihave a little dog that I love
very much.
His name name is Charlie.
Charlie has no sense of what isorder.
Charlie, I can look at the roomand I can say I don't like this
(12:15):
, it's messy and stuff like that.
Charlie has no sense of orderor messiness or anything like
that.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I'm more like Charlie of order or messiness or
anything like that.
I'm more like charlie saysomething, don't be like charlie
, I, I am like charlie, so I Iunderstand what you're saying,
but I gotta tell you something Idon't think anything can prove
(12:49):
the existence of God.
I think that we make a choiceto believe.
Then we can see patterns andrationalize or excuse or justify
(13:15):
whatever word you want to useour choice for believing in the
existence of God by seeing thesearguments for God.
Yeah, but and I obviously nosurprise believe in God, but the
proof.
(13:35):
But proving, because everythingthat you've mentioned so far can
be.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Okay, but here's my point Explained away.
Here's the point, and I'veoften had to deal with this with
people.
So have I?
Well, here's the point.
Explain the way.
Here's the point, and I'veoften had to deal with this.
Well, here's the point.
Proof to what end?
To what degree?
Because whenever I have anargument with people about this,
I always say, okay, let'sdefine proof.
And I always say, well, whydon't we bring up the american
(14:01):
legal system?
Let's say proof beyond areasonable doubt.
Now the reason?
The reason is that, uh, and, bythe way, david just texted me
and said your mic is not workingcorrectly.
I can't.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I can't hear it either.
You can't hear me, okay so, so,um, uh.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
the situation is that I always say okay, proof to
what degree?
Because if you use the word, ifyou use the standard reasonable
doubt, then you can bring itpretty close.
You can bring it pretty closeBecause anybody can doubt
(14:48):
anything.
I mean, I've sat in philosophyclassrooms where people were
doubting existence and seriouslydoubting existence.
Now talk Rabbi.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
How's this?
I switched microphones, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So the question is proof to what degree?
Right, because if you do proofbeyond a reasonable doubt, then
I think you can, because allthings can be doubted, all
things Descartes said.
The only thing that you can'tdoubt is the fact that you are
doubting.
And therefore, what is it?
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I think I think, therefore I am.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
So we can get into that later.
It's 20 after We've got to goto a break.
Come back to it.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
I doubt we can continue without going to a
break.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
That was good, rosie.
This is 1070 KMTH and we'll beright back.
Speaker 6 (15:48):
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The answer Johnny Angel, johnny Angel, johnny
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That's supposed to be thesecond song.
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Speaker 1 (19:16):
yeah, my three no, no , no, no it was uh uh so she was
on.
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I can't remember it now did you have that swoosh the
hair.
But see when she sang that onthe show the Donna Reed show,
the Donna.
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When she sang that and I was animpressionable 14 year old, I
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(19:43):
Johnny Angel, and so it bringshim back to his youth every time
he hears it and I always dreamtthat I was Johnny Angel, and so
it brings him back to his youthevery time he hears it.
But then I heard Karen Carpentersing it.
Oh yeah, and she sings itbetter than Shelly Fabre, and so
that was Karen Carpenter, andso it has been played in my
honor.
All right, and I may still bethere, there's some somewhere
(20:08):
inside of me.
There's this that the 14 yearold is still in all of us, it's
still swooning right anyway, wewere talking about proofs and
intellectual proofs about the,the, the existence of god.
We're talking about the wordproof, because the word proof,
if you say prove somethingbeyond any doubt, you cannot do
(20:33):
that Prove God.
You can't prove anything, andyou can't?
Well, you can't prove anything,you can doubt everything, you
can doubt.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
That's what I'm saying.
You choose to doubt or youchoose to believe that's correct
.
And everything else that comesafter that you can doubt.
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You choose to doubt or you choose to believe that's
correct and everything else thatcomes after that feeds the
choice.
But that's what I love aboutsaying let's set it as proof
beyond a reasonable doubt, notbeyond all doubt.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Again, I think it's choice to believe or choice not
to believe.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I agree with you.
I agree with you and I have myown reasons that I think make
logical sense.
That to me, validate my alreadyexisting belief and, for me,
prove the existence of God.
And I will say one other thingEven if it doesn't prove the
existence of God, prove theexistence of God.
(21:30):
To me, it shows the importanceof believing in God.
In other words and I know thisis going to be really shocking
for some people even if you hadabsolute, 100% proof, god does
not exist.
I'd still still believe,because I think believing in god
provides all sorts of goodthings for society, for people
(21:53):
who believe, for individuals andgroups all the way around, okay
, but I disagree with you there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I disagree mainly for this reason okay, that I don't
think I could believe somethingthat had been proven wrong.
That would be dishonest, allright so I'm overstating my case
.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But in the same way that I don't believe you can
prove God's existence, I don'tthink you can prove God's lack
of existence.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
No, I agree with you, that's all.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
I just believe that there is more to be gained by
belief than there is bydisbelief, and I would I would
urge all of us.
There's a tv show, I think it'snetflix.
It might be, uh, amazon prime,but he's not my favorite person,
ricky gervais yeah okay, he'swhat I call a professional
(22:45):
atheist and on the show he usesthe pulpit of his tv of this
show, uh to express hisdisbelief in god.
But the rest of the show iscalled After Life, not After
(23:06):
Life but After Life.
And in the beginning of theshow he is cynical and
mean-spirited and a really notnice guy and over the course of
the three seasons of 18 showstotal he turns into a nice guy
(23:28):
and is helpful and hints, hintsat the need to believe.
But here's.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Here's my point.
The point is that when I whensee, I don't want to turn it
into a totally relativism, Ichoose or I don't choose.
I don't want to turn it into atotally relativism, I choose or
I don't choose.
I think that there are choicesthat are more foolish and
choices that are smarter.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You can choose to believe in idiocy, right.
You can choose to believe myexperience and people do, yeah,
but my, not my experience.
My conclusion is that to notbelieve in a higher power, to
not believe in God, if we'regoing to use that term, is more
(24:14):
intellectually dishonest than itis than to be an atheist.
That, to me, is the likelihood,because I've often said this
whole thing of in the beginningthere was nothing, and nothing
ever happened to nothing, andfor one reason, some reason, for
some reason for no reasonnothing one day exploded into
(24:39):
bits of everything, and bits ofeverything then became dinosaurs
.
Jeez, it makes perfect sense,doesn't it Makes perfect sense?
And, rudy, I know you wanted toget in here, but we got only
five seconds because we can comeon in at the second part, when
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Speaker 3 (27:41):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM 1070 Answer.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Okay, Rudy, you were going to jump in.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
Yeah, okay, so I understand what the rabbi um is
saying, right, and we're allgiven free will, right at the
end, and this is something thatthat even, for example, cs lewis
talked about.
Right, it's like we choosehealth, like we choose to move
away from God.
(28:07):
We choose to ignore therational, if you will, right?
And the one thing that Ithought about when we're talking
about this is love.
Okay, so when we look at love,how do we then explain, for
(28:29):
example, a mother's sacrificiallove, something that goes
against all sorts of biologicalnatural inklings of the mother.
No, not in this way.
Orangutans eat their babies.
Rabbi, I mean, there's.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
You also have violence in the natural world,
but you also have animals thatwill sacrifice themselves for
the sake of their babies.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
There are mothers that sacrifice their babies.
But you don't only see thatwithin mothers.
You see that within people, forexample soldiers.
You see that with people thatare able to jump into danger and
save another human being.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, yeah, I think you're talking.
What is not present in theanimal kingdom is altruism.
You know, I think rudy iscorrect in this sense that, yes,
a mother will bring, will bringtheir themselves to an end.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I've seen videos of animals that will take another
animal as its own.
For what?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
well, okay it's.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
It may not be pure altruism, but it's altruistic
yeah, I think it's important.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I think what you're pointing, though, to rudy is the
ability to make a choice right,the ability to make a choice to
give your life for someone else.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
I think that but, let me right and go ahead well, I
just, I just wanted to.
I mean and this is a maybe aquestion for you guys too I mean
, to me it's more about anindividual having a genuine
pursuit of truth and rationality, that's correct.
(30:21):
And, of course, maybe you couldsay that I'm biased or maybe
that you know.
Oh, that's just, you know, youjust grew up being Catholic.
Okay, sure, but when anindividual genuinely tries to
discover truth and I mean alltruth, scientific, it doesn't
matter, like in which branch yougo into right, whether you're
(30:42):
studying quantum physics oragriculture, like it doesn't
matter.
The more you try tofundamentally understand it, the
more it leads you to point tothese sort of objective truths
that we keep running into.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I'm in agreement with you there, because the only
animal that pursues the truth isthe human being, or cares about
it, or cares about it, yeah,but let me bring something up.
I always bring this up wheneverI'm discussing this issue.
I think there are four thingsevery human being has to answer,
four, right, okay.
(31:19):
One where did this all getstarted?
The beginning of the universeDid everything?
People talk about the Big Bang?
Well, you can't have nothing gobang you can also not care.
You can just spend your lifethat's floating along the as the
stream takes you yeah, well,that's that I'm talking about a,
an actual human being thattries to live an authentic life.
(31:43):
What's the uh challenged life?
Speaker 3 (31:44):
no a the unexamined life, unexamined Right, an
examined life will do that.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
That's right.
So the first thing is where didthis whole thing start?
Okay, because now even atheists, sometimes especially
scientists, will say well, we'retalking about parallel
universes.
Well, you can talk about asmany parallel universes as you
want.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, talk about having a faith.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
How do you prove?
You don't prove it, but youdon't.
You ultimately have to saysomewhere even all those
universes had to have abeginning right where they come
from where they come?
Point number two.
Question number two what givesyou the right to say anything is
right or wrong?
Speaker 3 (32:21):
what is the moral basis okay because that's, that
is, to me, my proof of theexistence of god there is no, if
there is no moral basis andeverything is up there's no
standard of right the thirdquestion does life have a
meaning or does?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
is it?
You have to provide it yourself, because, in and of itself, the
the universe is a cold,meaningless, empty space and you
have to choose.
Is there such a thing asmeaning to existence, and why is
it that we, as human beings,have a tremendous need for
meaning?
(33:00):
No other animal does See.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
That's the issue Is we have a need for meaning and
it doesn't matter intellectuallevel, economic state status.
You have a need for meaning andit doesn't matter intellectual
level, economic state status.
You have a need for meaning.
You have to have a meaning inyour life, whether it's working
to earn a living to feed yourchildren, whatever, wife,
whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
But you have to have the human being needs meaning.
The worst thing that you cangive somebody is meaningless
work.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Just you know work that is Busy work in school Just
busy work.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I remember those days .
Okay.
And then the last thing iswhere is this all going?
I'm going to die.
Where is it all going?
Is there any purpose?
Or was this just me kind ofmaking it up and then when I die
, I die?
That's it.
And so those are the fourquestions that everybody has to
answer, and, to my way ofbelieving, is the meaning.
(33:56):
The origins of the universepoint to an intelligent designer
that started it.
The need for morality point toa correct and an incorrect way
of being.
The need for meaning says if Ihave a need for water, if I'm
thirsty, that means that there'swater.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
If I'm hungry, that means there's.
If you see, that means thereare things to be seen that's
correct If you smell.
So there's a part of our brainthat also perceives the fancy
term numinous, the divinespiritual.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And then the last thing is if death is it, then
what's the point?
Which is related to the meaningof life?
But that to me, all thosequestions, to me, it feels like
it makes much more sense tobelieve that there is an
intelligent designer to thiswhole thing.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
It makes more sense to have God than it does to not
have God.
To me, it's foolish.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
When people come to me and say, well, prove to me
that there's a God.
You know what I say, I say waita minute, excuse me, why am I
having to prove it?
Right, you prove Proof thereisn't.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
You prove there isn't you prove there isn't, Because
all the signs point.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
If you walk out in the middle of the desert and you
see a structure like the Sphinx, you're not going to say, oh
look what the desert createdover centuries.
You're going to presumeimmediately.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
That something created it, sculpted it.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
That's right.
So you're saying well, proveedit.
That's right.
So you're saying well, prove tome that somebody made the
sphinx duh man but that'sbecause it's on an earth that
has humans that sculpt but,intelligent design.
If there is intelligent designin the universe, there has to be
a designer.
You can't, you can't havedesign.
If a universe, there has to bea designer, you can't have
(35:49):
design.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
If a universe can only exist where there is design
, then it doesn't mean it wasdesigned.
It means that we can interpretit or perceive a design that
exists.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yes, but in other words think, I think I disagree
with you.
I think if you have design, youcannot have reasonable,
intelligent design without amind to construct it.
You cannot.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
There was a statement made by uh uh, this, this super
intelligent guy in thewheelchair.
He was yeah, yeah, uh, thankyou.
Hawking made a statement aboutour universe and he said and for
(36:43):
him, this was a proof of thenon-existence of god, which
really makes no sense when Itell you what he said.
He said that the universe as wehave it is the only kind of
universe we could have.
I'm telling you that's what?
Look it up, google search.
He said.
And for him, that was a proofof the non-existence of god,
because you didn't have to havea designer.
(37:04):
It's that the bang would havenaturally fallen into this
perfect distance between theearth and the sun and the heat
and the angle of the earth onits axis you know all this other
stuff.
And to me that was exactly theopposite.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
It proved the existence of God because the
odds I'm not even capable ofcreating the odds of all this
falling into place correctly,okay by the way, if any of you,
we have to go to a break prettysoon, but let me tell you, if
you want to read a book that isan amazing thing on this topic,
(37:45):
okay is.
The book is called the devil,the devil's delusion the devil's
delusion the devil's delusionby by.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Uh, that's a direct response to the god delusion.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
The god delusion.
Yes, good is the last, the.
The guy's name is berlinskidavid berlinski, berlinski,
berlinski, berlinski, berlinski.
It is amazing.
He is a physicist who spendshis whole time slicing into bits
evolutionists and people whosay, oh, we have proven that
(38:20):
there is no God, we have provenit's masterful, the book.
I cannot highly morallyrecommend.
The Devil's Delusion.
The Devil's Delusion.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
The Devil's Delusion.
There's a book that I wouldrecommend called God, genesis
and the Big Bang, and it'sGerald Schroeder, and he talks
about the fact that science andreligion don't contradict each
other, and it goes into deep,deep math.
(38:49):
I could not begin to follow,but it's an incredible book God,
genesis and the Big Bang GeraldSchroeder.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Okay, Rudy, do you want to jump in Quick?
Speaker 5 (39:01):
we're on break, yeah you know we have to go to break
here in a minute, but when wecome back, I wanted to kind of
talk a little bit about, fromeach of y'all's perspectives,
what is it about your faith thatkeeps you, let's say, wanting
to pursue truth more genuinelyright?
(39:24):
Like what is it about it thatyou haven't given up on yet?
You know what I mean.
Like what is it about it thatdraws you that continues, I mean
, even as seasoned veterans asyou are?
Why is it that you even botherwith it anymore?
I mean, is there something thatyou still find appealing?
(39:46):
Is it something that you feelcomplacent about?
Or is it something that youfeel that you could spend an
entire other life chasing andyou still wouldn't even begin to
scratch the surface of it?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH and we will be right back.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
AM 1070 and FM 1033, the answer.
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That's what you need on yoursmartphone.
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Speaker 1 (42:05):
The Answer he was born in the summer of his 27th
year, coming home to a placehe'd never been before.
(42:30):
He left yesterday behind him.
You might say he's born again.
You might say he found the keyfor every door when he first
came to the mountains.
His life was far away, on theroad and hanging by a song, but
(42:55):
the string's already broken andhe doesn't really care.
It keeps changing fast and itdon't last for long.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
But the Colorado, welcome back to a show of Faith.
On AM1070, the Answer.
Sharon, we miss you.
Hope everything's going greatup in Dallas.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
And, by the way, just this last plug I want to
reemphasize the Devil's Delusion, and the subtitle is the
Atheism and Its ScientificPretensions.
Oh good, oh, it's excellent,Excellent.
I cannot.
That's one of my five bestbooks I've ever read.
So, Rudy, you were going tojump in.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
Yeah, I just wanted to kind of close up.
I know we have about tenminutes left, but I was trying
to explain before the break butI essentially wanted.
So we talked a little bit aboutsort of what we find and again
I like the way you put it,Father is proofs, right, Like
(44:04):
things that we find beyond areasonable doubt, right, that we
find appealing as somethingexisting, that is beyond us,
right, this sort of creativeintelligence that exists.
And I wanted to kind of turn itnow a little bit.
And from you guys' perspective,from the particular faith that
(44:27):
you profess, what is it aboutthese faiths that you find the
most appealing, I would say, ingenuinely pursuing that truth?
I mean, what is it that youfind that facilitates that?
What is it that you find thatkind of gives you that want,
(44:51):
that need?
I mean, I know we talked aboutit as being something inherent
in humanity.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
You know, rudy, for me, I don't think that I could
live without my relationshipwith God.
I don't think that I could getup in the morning and find any
reason to do anything.
If there is no hope, if thereis nothing in the future, if
(45:20):
this life doesn't have anymeaning, then I, you know, I, I
love um.
I can't remember her name, ifthat's all there is, if that's
all there is, my friend.
And let's keep dancing, let'sbreak out the booze and right
and have a ball hedonism yeah,it's so.
To me, the very idea of livingwithout seeking the meaning of
(45:46):
at the center of the universe isso abhorrent that I would have
to live constantly high orconstantly drunk, because if I
didn't, I would be tempted tosuicide I don't think I would be
led to suicide, but I wouldfind the world to be very
depressing I said I would betempted.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
But yes, exactly in other words, there's also
something to be said for themeaning we make for ourselves.
But the questions that Mariolisted, the four questions that
Mario listed, I just think thatJudaism answers them the best.
I think that it's rational,reasonable, practical and
(46:31):
practicable faith that gives theperson meaning, and that's what
I want to share and spread, andI just the basis of it is a God
who cares.
He cares what we do, cares whatwe eat, think how we play, how
(46:53):
we relate to each other and tome.
All of the questions thatpeople ask about religion, about
faith, about life, about death,about all the religious,
spiritual questions, to me seemto be best answered within
Judaism, and so that's why Iwant to promote it yeah that's
(47:14):
why I work for it, that's whyit's interesting?
Speaker 2 (47:16):
because when you say that, I have the exact same
reasoning.
Absolutely.
When I hear jesus speaking, I'mhearing an echo of the most
profound longings of my life andthat's why I am a believer in
Jesus.
Whenever I look at theresurrection, at the crucifixion
(47:39):
, whenever I hear him talk, Ialways like the idea of what I
think.
It was CS Lewis who said thatwhen Jesus stands there and says
I am the way, the truth and thelife, you either have to say
he's a liar, a lunatic or a lord, or he is a legend.
(48:02):
It's one of those four.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
There are other possibilities.
But ultimately I believe in theNew Testament and I'm a
christian because to me there isno better answer which is
exactly the same thing, and Ican't imagine anybody of
religion, whatever religion,answering any differently, even
(48:28):
even though we disagree on basictheological beliefs, even
though all religions willdisagree with all religions on
some very basic beliefs, but aperson isn't going to devote
their lives to their faith ifthey didn't hold what Mario said
(48:51):
and what what I said, andthey'll say it too hindu,
buddhist, baptist, muslim.
You have, jane, some sort ofyou'd have to.
You have to, yeah, rudy I thinkit's.
Speaker 5 (49:04):
I think it's fundamentally based, though and
I'm going to go back to thesaying on this sort of genuine
pursuit of truth, right?
I mean, without that it doesn'twork Like at a very fundamental
level, right?
You're always trying to findthat purpose.
You know, whether it's hiddenor not, whether it's revealed to
(49:28):
you or not, it's revealed toyou or not, I think all human
beings.
We have this, which, to me, isquote unquote, another one of
these proofs, right, it's thefact that people that want
there's people, the fact thatthere's people that want to live
a life of meaning, right?
That want to live a life thatthey do good with themselves,
(49:54):
with their family, with theircommunity, and they're willing
and able to sacrifice everythingfor that, especially their
families.
Right?
I mean that to me, look, youdon't get that outside of sort
of this genuine belief thatthere's something out there that
(50:14):
loves you with everything,infinitely.
Right, and so go ahead, father.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
No, I'm agreeing with you.
I'm agreeing with you.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
Yeah, so I just find that I understand it's a choice,
and I guess the more I meancall me biased or call me
brainwashed, I don't know, andI've really tried.
Look, I've read a lot of these,the Nietzsches and the Hegel's
and the Descartes, like I'veread them, we've studied them,
(50:52):
you know, and again, I don'tknow if it's just the previous
things that I've studied or read, but to me they just they read
as if they're just devoid of anyactual meaning in what they're
saying oh okay, because I seeyou were quoting Hegel and all
those people and I thought onour show we've kind of been
(51:14):
rather upset with things thatthey've written the very same.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Well, not all of them , but some of the people that
you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Hegel yeah, they're very.
They're the darlings of thesecular community.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
On a different, if I may bring up.
We have a request here.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
For a question that has to be asked of the rabbi.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
From my friend Three minutes.
From my friend Pete Hi Pete InWashington State in Seattle.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Whoa far away.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yes, he is listening, and Pete said today in the
Catholic Church we'recelebrating something called the
Feast of the Presentation.
Speaker 9 (51:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Where the baby is married.
After the 40 days of her youknow the giving birth she brings
baby Jesus into the temple forthe presentation and the
question is male baby to bepresented in the temple 40 days
after birth?
Does the Jewish presentationstill continue to be celebrated?
Speaker 3 (52:18):
I have no idea what you're talking about
presentation.
I think what you're talkingabout is referenced in the five
books of Moses and it's calledthe redemption of the firstborn
called the redemption of thefirstborn.
It's basically there's no reasonto present a male baby, except
(52:38):
there is a ritual, for If thefirstborn first to open the womb
is a male and it's naturalchildbirth, it's pidyon haben,
it is redemption of thefirstborn.
You may remember that Moses,that God said the firstborn are
not, may remember that Mosesthat God said the firstborn are
not going to be my priests, butyou will redeem them from me,
okay.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
The gospel says today , when the days were completed
for their purification accordingto the law of Moses, mary and
Joseph took Jesus up toJerusalem to present him to the
Lord.
Just as it is written in thelaw of the Lord every male that
opens the womb shall beconsecrated to the Lord.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Just as it is written in the law of the Lord every
male that opens the womb shallbe consecrated to the Lord.
That's not a presentation.
That is redemption of thefirstborn.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Okay, which is what I thought you were talking about.
So that's what, pete, and yes,they are definitely doing that
today.
If the firstborn is male, toopen the womb, natural
childbirth.
Okay, there you go, pete.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Numbers, chapter 18.
Oh, numbers chapter 18.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Hey, you sounded like David there for a minute.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
I know you know Chapter and verse You're getting
to be Protestant I have thatGPT.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Don't tell David he'll get a swelled head.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Well, who's in charge next week?
I don't know who was last week.
You were last week, I think Iwas there before ok, so it's
David next week ok, we'll findout if you're listening, david,
we have just given you in yourabsence.
You selected it's your luckyday, smile, you're on candid
(54:10):
camera.
Ok, well, it's your lucky day,smile, you're on candid camera.
Ok, well, it's Super BowlSunday we'll still be here we
will still be here, I know.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Mario would really like to give up because he'd
really like to see the SuperBowl.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
I hate all sports you do.
Oh, I hate all sports.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
It's a totally meaningless group when we talk
about football, he says who madethe basket?
Speaker 2 (54:35):
So, friends, this is TNTH and you've been listening
to the Show of Faith.
Please, during this week, keepus in your prayers, because you
are going to be in ours.
Stop, what's that sound?
Everybody, look what's goingdown.
Lines being drawn.
Nobody's right If everybody'swrong.
(00:51):
People speak in their mind.
I didn't need so muchresistance From behind.
Stop what's that sound.
Everybody, look what's goingdown.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I don't think we're on.
I don't think we're on.
I can hear myself.
I can Well.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
it's Show of Faith where professor priest
millennial and rabbi discusstheology and philosophy and
anything else of interest inreligion.
Oh, it's Show of Faith, whereProfessor, priests, millennial
and Rabbi discuss theology andphilosophy and anything else of
interest in religion.
You have any response to ourtopics or any comments regarding
what we say?
Hey, we'd love to hear from you.
Please email us atashowoffaithathotmailcom.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening pretty
much anywhere podcasts are heard.
(01:42):
Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo,retired pastor of St Cyril of
Alexandria in the 10,000 blockof Westheimer.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, hello there.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Our professor is David Capes, baptist minister
and director of academicprogramming for the Lanier
Theological Library, butunfortunately could not make it
with us tonight.
Rudy Cohn is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer, hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of St Thomas.
I am Rabbi Stuart Federo, rabbiEmeritus of Congregation Sha'ar
(02:15):
HaShalom in the Clear Lake areaof Houston, texas.
Corey and Miranda are boardoperators, but tonight Nikki is
filling in and together, mirandaand Corey and Nikki, help us
sound fantastic.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Hopefully.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I'm sure, and tonight Rudy is our show director.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Rudy are you there?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I am there, he is.
Take it away.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
Hey, okay, okay.
So I know last week we had a.
I think we had a pretty goodconversation and it got me to
thinking.
We were talking about sort ofpresidential religion, right,
and how different people caninterpret sort of the will of
(03:05):
God, right, the things thathappen, the things that don't
happen.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And we were talking because of Trump's
interpretation of his attemptedassassination.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Exactly, and his claim that he was, you know,
left alive so he could run forpresident, and it got me
thinking.
I think there's a lot of thingsthat leave people right,
because, I mean, even Trump'sbelief is sort of based on a
particular understanding that hehas on religion, on a higher
(03:40):
power, on what essentiallycreated this whole thing right,
and so I wanted to talk a littlebit about and from each of us'
perspective I wanted to talkabout what each of us thinks is
(04:02):
how could I say this?
What each of us thinks is thebest proof for a God that we
have Right.
So Trump's belief that whathappened, right, the
assassination attempt has someunderlying criteria, right, that
goes with it.
So he's able to associate thatwith a belief system that's
(04:26):
already there.
So, from our perspective, Ithink we all have these same,
and not that, I think we do allhave these same sort of
underlying perspectives, and Ithink there's a lot that we have
in common.
There's obviously a lot that wehave different, but
fundamentally, I think we allsort of reach a consensus in
(04:49):
different ways for what we thinkis sort of in our life and
experience the proof of God.
So what I really wanted to talkabout is and I can go first if
you guys don't mind or ifsomebody else wants to share.
But I want to talk about whateach of us thinks is the most
(05:14):
sort of unquestionable fact ormost unquestionable way that we
believe in God and why we thinkthat there is, without a shadow
of a doubt, the existence of God.
And then, as sort of the secondhalf of the show I wanted to
talk about, what is it aboutthis belief, or what is it about
our particular faith that keepsus motivated in that belief.
(05:38):
I don't know if I'm sort ofmaking any sense, but yeah, I
think so.
Yeah, okay, so you go first rudy, so I guess okay, I'll kick it
off because I I, of course, Imean I've studied engineer,
engineering, and I kind of froma, from a young, from a young
(06:00):
whiffer snapper.
Um, I remember as a teenager 15, 16 years old I remember
picking up the Summa Theologiae,and this is a book written by
Thomas Aquinas, St ThomasAquinas, where he goes through a
lot of different proofs and oneof the things that really
struck me there's this sectionand he talks a lot about these
(06:25):
created forms and potentiality,and it gets pretty philosophical
, right.
And now I would say, later onin life, that I've studied it
more.
It makes.
When I read somebody likeAristotle, Plato, it makes more
sense.
But I think it's because I'vebeen sort of trained, I've been
(06:48):
exposed to it.
I mean I could even make theargue, I don't know, maybe my
brain's more developed or not.
I mean they say that men'sbrains don't finish developing
until they're like 28 or 29 orsomething like that, right, 29
(07:08):
or something like that right.
But one of the things that Iremember reading was this
concept of the perfect form,right, and whenever we think of
geometry, okay and we think offorms let's say a circle then we
have in our minds, right, thereexists this concept of a circle
, okay, and we can draw a circleand we can construct a circle,
(07:32):
or we can make it out of dirt,we can make a sphere, but there
exists this ideal circle, shapeor circle form, if you will.
Now, as a Catholic, I wouldsort of extrapolate that and say
, okay, there's human beings andof course our belief is that,
(07:53):
well, Jesus Christ is that idealhuman being right?
So to me, when I think aboutthese and I'm going to go back
to the geometry now but there'scertain things about geometry
and there's certain things aboutmath that stand above, let's
say, the particularunderstanding of a human being.
(08:15):
And what do I mean by that?
I mean that.
So, for example, thePythagorean theorem, right,
which was quote-unquote, and Isay this loosely, the theorem
sort of first deposited byPythagoras, and A squared plus B
squared equals C squared, ishow you sort of make the
(08:37):
dimensions of a triangle, yeah,Okay.
Now it doesn't matter ifPythagoras was Greek or Indian
or African or American, itdoesn't matter.
The Pythagorean theorem, thatsequence of variables that add
up to this type of triangle, aretrue no matter what language,
(09:00):
no matter what region, no matterwhat time, it just doesn't
change, okay.
And so across sort ofmathematical principles which I
would say are seen in nature.
Right, Because we can look atnature and see things.
We can see objects, we can seeforms, we can see geometric
(09:21):
shapes, forms, we can seegeometric shapes.
The Greeks understood it, since, I mean, Plato wrote about it,
Euclid wrote about it, sothere's a lot of authors that
have written about this.
But there's these concepts thatstand outside of space and time
.
So when I think about thesethings and I think about nature
(09:44):
and I think about what can beobserved, there's an
intelligibility About things,right, Like things can be
understood Regardless of when weare in space and time.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I think that that reminds me of Einstein, Because
Einstein Was the one who saidthat the thing that most
impressed him about the universeis that it was understandable,
that it was intelligible.
And it's very interestingbecause, see, think about it If
(10:19):
everything is an accident let'ssay the Big Bang was all an
accident, which I can arguelater when you have an explosion
anywhere, you don't get anintelligible distribution of
what exploded, you just getrandom.
If your house exploded, youwouldn't expect to find all your
(10:42):
pictures in one place, yourdishes in another.
You wouldn't expectorganization.
Find all your pictures in oneplace, your dishes in another?
You wouldn't expectorganization, because
organization is a sign ofintelligibility.
And so that's basically whatyou're saying, right?
Speaker 5 (10:55):
Yeah, in essence, and the fact that it can be
observed across space and time,so it doesn't matter whether it
was 2,000 years ago or tomorrow.
Yeah, these same things can beobserved under different
cultures, under differentlanguages, by different people.
So there's somethingquote-unquote objective about
(11:18):
this right that kind of sitsoutside of the creation of the
human mind.
That's correct.
Okay, it exists outside of it,and I think that's.
I mean, there's other proofs,right.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah, but you know, the human mind, the very fact
that the human mind matches theexternal organization of the
world, in other words, that therationality, the rational
organization that exists, likerudy's saying objectively, the
fact that we can perceive thatobjectivity is, isn't, isn't of
(11:53):
itself a tremendous thing.
Because, I can tell you, one ofthe things that I I'm
constantly marveling at is, Ihave a little dog that I love
very much.
His name name is Charlie.
Charlie has no sense of what isorder.
Charlie, I can look at the roomand I can say I don't like this
(12:15):
, it's messy and stuff like that.
Charlie has no sense of orderor messiness or anything like
that.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I'm more like Charlie of order or messiness or
anything like that.
I'm more like charlie saysomething, don't be like charlie
, I, I am like charlie, so I Iunderstand what you're saying,
but I gotta tell you something Idon't think anything can prove
(12:49):
the existence of God.
I think that we make a choiceto believe.
Then we can see patterns andrationalize or excuse or justify
(13:15):
whatever word you want to useour choice for believing in the
existence of God by seeing thesearguments for God.
Yeah, but and I obviously nosurprise believe in God, but the
proof.
(13:35):
But proving, because everythingthat you've mentioned so far can
be.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Okay, but here's my point Explained away.
Here's the point, and I'veoften had to deal with this with
people.
So have I?
Well, here's the point.
Explain the way.
Here's the point, and I'veoften had to deal with this.
Well, here's the point.
Proof to what end?
To what degree?
Because whenever I have anargument with people about this,
I always say, okay, let'sdefine proof.
And I always say, well, whydon't we bring up the american
(14:01):
legal system?
Let's say proof beyond areasonable doubt.
Now the reason?
The reason is that, uh, and, bythe way, david just texted me
and said your mic is not workingcorrectly.
I can't.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I can't hear it either.
You can't hear me, okay so, so,um, uh.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
the situation is that I always say okay, proof to
what degree?
Because if you use the word, ifyou use the standard reasonable
doubt, then you can bring itpretty close.
You can bring it pretty closeBecause anybody can doubt
(14:48):
anything.
I mean, I've sat in philosophyclassrooms where people were
doubting existence and seriouslydoubting existence.
Now talk Rabbi.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
How's this?
I switched microphones, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So the question is proof to what degree?
Right, because if you do proofbeyond a reasonable doubt, then
I think you can, because allthings can be doubted, all
things Descartes said.
The only thing that you can'tdoubt is the fact that you are
doubting.
And therefore, what is it?
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I think I think, therefore I am.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
So we can get into that later.
It's 20 after We've got to goto a break.
Come back to it.
Speaker 5 (15:39):
I doubt we can continue without going to a
break.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
That was good, rosie.
This is 1070 KMTH and we'll beright back.
Speaker 6 (15:48):
AM 1070 and FM 1033, the answer.
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Charlie k Kirk sees a president with a backbone If
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On AM 1070 and FM 103.3.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
The answer Johnny Angel, johnny Angel, johnny
Angel, I'm bored.
You're an angel to me, shut up,shut up, shut up, shut up.
Johnny Angel, how I love him,how I tingle when he passes by.
(18:14):
Every time he says hello, myheart begins to fly.
Johnny Angel, how I want him.
You fly, johnny, you're how Iwant you.
He's got something that I can'tresist, but he doesn't even
(18:39):
know that I exist, do you know?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
do you know you can bring it down, okay, do you know
?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
why we play that song .
No, I don't know why.
Okay, Second song every Sundaynight.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Every Sunday night.
That's supposed to be thesecond song.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Oh okay, okay, I did right.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yes, here's why, a long time ago, I was telling
people that I was in love withshelly fabre.
Okay, but then and and becausewhen I was a young kid maybe 13,
14 my three sons is that.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
yeah, my three no, no , no, no it was uh uh so she was
on.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I can't remember it now did you have that swoosh the
hair.
But see when she sang that onthe show the Donna Reed show,
the Donna.
Reed show.
When she sang that and I was animpressionable 14 year old, I
was in love with that woman andI always dreamt that I was
(19:43):
Johnny Angel, and so it bringshim back to his youth every time
he hears it and I always dreamtthat I was Johnny Angel, and so
it brings him back to his youthevery time he hears it.
But then I heard Karen Carpentersing it.
Oh yeah, and she sings itbetter than Shelly Fabre, and so
that was Karen Carpenter, andso it has been played in my
honor.
All right, and I may still bethere, there's some somewhere
(20:08):
inside of me.
There's this that the 14 yearold is still in all of us, it's
still swooning right anyway, wewere talking about proofs and
intellectual proofs about the,the, the existence of god.
We're talking about the wordproof, because the word proof,
if you say prove somethingbeyond any doubt, you cannot do
(20:33):
that Prove God.
You can't prove anything, andyou can't?
Well, you can't prove anything,you can doubt everything, you
can doubt.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
That's what I'm saying.
You choose to doubt or youchoose to believe that's correct
.
And everything else that comesafter that you can doubt.
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You choose to doubt or you choose to believe that's
correct and everything else thatcomes after that feeds the
choice.
But that's what I love aboutsaying let's set it as proof
beyond a reasonable doubt, notbeyond all doubt.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Again, I think it's choice to believe or choice not
to believe.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
I agree with you.
I agree with you and I have myown reasons that I think make
logical sense.
That to me, validate my alreadyexisting belief and, for me,
prove the existence of God.
And I will say one other thingEven if it doesn't prove the
existence of God, prove theexistence of God.
(21:30):
To me, it shows the importanceof believing in God.
In other words and I know thisis going to be really shocking
for some people even if you hadabsolute, 100% proof, god does
not exist.
I'd still still believe,because I think believing in god
provides all sorts of goodthings for society, for people
(21:53):
who believe, for individuals andgroups all the way around, okay
, but I disagree with you there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I disagree mainly for this reason okay, that I don't
think I could believe somethingthat had been proven wrong.
That would be dishonest, allright so I'm overstating my case
.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
But in the same way that I don't believe you can
prove God's existence, I don'tthink you can prove God's lack
of existence.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
No, I agree with you, that's all.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
I just believe that there is more to be gained by
belief than there is bydisbelief, and I would I would
urge all of us.
There's a tv show, I think it'snetflix.
It might be, uh, amazon prime,but he's not my favorite person,
ricky gervais yeah okay, he'swhat I call a professional
(22:45):
atheist and on the show he usesthe pulpit of his tv of this
show, uh to express hisdisbelief in god.
But the rest of the show iscalled After Life, not After
(23:06):
Life but After Life.
And in the beginning of theshow he is cynical and
mean-spirited and a really notnice guy and over the course of
the three seasons of 18 showstotal he turns into a nice guy
(23:28):
and is helpful and hints, hintsat the need to believe.
But here's.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Here's my point.
The point is that when I whensee, I don't want to turn it
into a totally relativism, Ichoose or I don't choose.
I don't want to turn it into atotally relativism, I choose or
I don't choose.
I think that there are choicesthat are more foolish and
choices that are smarter.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
You can choose to believe in idiocy, right.
You can choose to believe myexperience and people do, yeah,
but my, not my experience.
My conclusion is that to notbelieve in a higher power, to
not believe in God, if we'regoing to use that term, is more
(24:14):
intellectually dishonest than itis than to be an atheist.
That, to me, is the likelihood,because I've often said this
whole thing of in the beginningthere was nothing, and nothing
ever happened to nothing, andfor one reason, some reason, for
some reason for no reasonnothing one day exploded into
(24:39):
bits of everything, and bits ofeverything then became dinosaurs
.
Jeez, it makes perfect sense,doesn't it Makes perfect sense?
And, rudy, I know you wanted toget in here, but we got only
five seconds because we can comeon in at the second part, when
we get over to the commercials.
This is KNTV 1070, and we'll beright back.
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aren't the only one who enjoyslistening to salem media group.
Everybody at salem media group.
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Speaker 1 (27:01):
The answer oh, cecilia, yeah.
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Naughty girl.
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Cecilia, you're breaking my heart, you're
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Speaker 3 (27:41):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM 1070 Answer.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Okay, Rudy, you were going to jump in.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
Yeah, okay, so I understand what the rabbi um is
saying, right, and we're allgiven free will, right at the
end, and this is something thatthat even, for example, cs lewis
talked about.
Right, it's like we choosehealth, like we choose to move
away from God.
(28:07):
We choose to ignore therational, if you will, right?
And the one thing that Ithought about when we're talking
about this is love.
Okay, so when we look at love,how do we then explain, for
(28:29):
example, a mother's sacrificiallove, something that goes
against all sorts of biologicalnatural inklings of the mother.
No, not in this way.
Orangutans eat their babies.
Rabbi, I mean, there's.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
You also have violence in the natural world,
but you also have animals thatwill sacrifice themselves for
the sake of their babies.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
There are mothers that sacrifice their babies.
But you don't only see thatwithin mothers.
You see that within people, forexample soldiers.
You see that with people thatare able to jump into danger and
save another human being.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, yeah, I think you're talking.
What is not present in theanimal kingdom is altruism.
You know, I think rudy iscorrect in this sense that, yes,
a mother will bring, will bringtheir themselves to an end.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I've seen videos of animals that will take another
animal as its own.
For what?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
well, okay it's.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
It may not be pure altruism, but it's altruistic
yeah, I think it's important.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I think what you're pointing, though, to rudy is the
ability to make a choice right,the ability to make a choice to
give your life for someone else.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
I think that but, let me right and go ahead well, I
just, I just wanted to.
I mean and this is a maybe aquestion for you guys too I mean
, to me it's more about anindividual having a genuine
pursuit of truth and rationality, that's correct.
(30:21):
And, of course, maybe you couldsay that I'm biased or maybe
that you know.
Oh, that's just, you know, youjust grew up being Catholic.
Okay, sure, but when anindividual genuinely tries to
discover truth and I mean alltruth, scientific, it doesn't
matter, like in which branch yougo into right, whether you're
(30:42):
studying quantum physics oragriculture, like it doesn't
matter.
The more you try tofundamentally understand it, the
more it leads you to point tothese sort of objective truths
that we keep running into.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I'm in agreement with you there, because the only
animal that pursues the truth isthe human being, or cares about
it, or cares about it, yeah,but let me bring something up.
I always bring this up wheneverI'm discussing this issue.
I think there are four thingsevery human being has to answer,
four, right, okay.
(31:19):
One where did this all getstarted?
The beginning of the universeDid everything?
People talk about the Big Bang?
Well, you can't have nothing gobang you can also not care.
You can just spend your lifethat's floating along the as the
stream takes you yeah, well,that's that I'm talking about a,
an actual human being thattries to live an authentic life.
(31:43):
What's the uh challenged life?
Speaker 3 (31:44):
no a the unexamined life, unexamined Right, an
examined life will do that.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
That's right.
So the first thing is where didthis whole thing start?
Okay, because now even atheists, sometimes especially
scientists, will say well, we'retalking about parallel
universes.
Well, you can talk about asmany parallel universes as you
want.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, talk about having a faith.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
How do you prove?
You don't prove it, but youdon't.
You ultimately have to saysomewhere even all those
universes had to have abeginning right where they come
from where they come?
Point number two.
Question number two what givesyou the right to say anything is
right or wrong?
Speaker 3 (32:21):
what is the moral basis okay because that's, that
is, to me, my proof of theexistence of god there is no, if
there is no moral basis andeverything is up there's no
standard of right the thirdquestion does life have a
meaning or does?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
is it?
You have to provide it yourself, because, in and of itself, the
the universe is a cold,meaningless, empty space and you
have to choose.
Is there such a thing asmeaning to existence, and why is
it that we, as human beings,have a tremendous need for
meaning?
(33:00):
No other animal does See.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
That's the issue Is we have a need for meaning and
it doesn't matter intellectuallevel, economic state status.
You have a need for meaning andit doesn't matter intellectual
level, economic state status.
You have a need for meaning.
You have to have a meaning inyour life, whether it's working
to earn a living to feed yourchildren, whatever, wife,
whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
But you have to have the human being needs meaning.
The worst thing that you cangive somebody is meaningless
work.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Just you know work that is Busy work in school Just
busy work.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I remember those days .
Okay.
And then the last thing iswhere is this all going?
I'm going to die.
Where is it all going?
Is there any purpose?
Or was this just me kind ofmaking it up and then when I die
, I die?
That's it.
And so those are the fourquestions that everybody has to
answer, and, to my way ofbelieving, is the meaning.
(33:56):
The origins of the universepoint to an intelligent designer
that started it.
The need for morality point toa correct and an incorrect way
of being.
The need for meaning says if Ihave a need for water, if I'm
thirsty, that means that there'swater.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
If I'm hungry, that means there's.
If you see, that means thereare things to be seen that's
correct If you smell.
So there's a part of our brainthat also perceives the fancy
term numinous, the divinespiritual.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And then the last thing is if death is it, then
what's the point?
Which is related to the meaningof life?
But that to me, all thosequestions, to me, it feels like
it makes much more sense tobelieve that there is an
intelligent designer to thiswhole thing.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
It makes more sense to have God than it does to not
have God.
To me, it's foolish.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
When people come to me and say, well, prove to me
that there's a God.
You know what I say, I say waita minute, excuse me, why am I
having to prove it?
Right, you prove Proof thereisn't.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
You prove there isn't you prove there isn't, Because
all the signs point.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
If you walk out in the middle of the desert and you
see a structure like the Sphinx, you're not going to say, oh
look what the desert createdover centuries.
You're going to presumeimmediately.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
That something created it, sculpted it.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
That's right.
So you're saying well, proveedit.
That's right.
So you're saying well, prove tome that somebody made the
sphinx duh man but that'sbecause it's on an earth that
has humans that sculpt but,intelligent design.
If there is intelligent designin the universe, there has to be
a designer.
You can't, you can't havedesign.
If a universe, there has to bea designer, you can't have
(35:49):
design.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
If a universe can only exist where there is design
, then it doesn't mean it wasdesigned.
It means that we can interpretit or perceive a design that
exists.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yes, but in other words think, I think I disagree
with you.
I think if you have design, youcannot have reasonable,
intelligent design without amind to construct it.
You cannot.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
There was a statement made by uh uh, this, this super
intelligent guy in thewheelchair.
He was yeah, yeah, uh, thankyou.
Hawking made a statement aboutour universe and he said and for
(36:43):
him, this was a proof of thenon-existence of god, which
really makes no sense when Itell you what he said.
He said that the universe as wehave it is the only kind of
universe we could have.
I'm telling you that's what?
Look it up, google search.
He said.
And for him, that was a proofof the non-existence of god,
because you didn't have to havea designer.
(37:04):
It's that the bang would havenaturally fallen into this
perfect distance between theearth and the sun and the heat
and the angle of the earth onits axis you know all this other
stuff.
And to me that was exactly theopposite.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
It proved the existence of God because the
odds I'm not even capable ofcreating the odds of all this
falling into place correctly,okay by the way, if any of you,
we have to go to a break prettysoon, but let me tell you, if
you want to read a book that isan amazing thing on this topic,
(37:45):
okay is.
The book is called the devil,the devil's delusion the devil's
delusion the devil's delusionby by.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Uh, that's a direct response to the god delusion.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
The god delusion.
Yes, good is the last, the.
The guy's name is berlinskidavid berlinski, berlinski,
berlinski, berlinski, berlinski.
It is amazing.
He is a physicist who spendshis whole time slicing into bits
evolutionists and people whosay, oh, we have proven that
(38:20):
there is no God, we have provenit's masterful, the book.
I cannot highly morallyrecommend.
The Devil's Delusion.
The Devil's Delusion.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
The Devil's Delusion.
There's a book that I wouldrecommend called God, genesis
and the Big Bang, and it'sGerald Schroeder, and he talks
about the fact that science andreligion don't contradict each
other, and it goes into deep,deep math.
(38:49):
I could not begin to follow,but it's an incredible book God,
genesis and the Big Bang GeraldSchroeder.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Okay, Rudy, do you want to jump in Quick?
Speaker 5 (39:01):
we're on break, yeah you know we have to go to break
here in a minute, but when wecome back, I wanted to kind of
talk a little bit about, fromeach of y'all's perspectives,
what is it about your faith thatkeeps you, let's say, wanting
to pursue truth more genuinelyright?
(39:24):
Like what is it about it thatyou haven't given up on yet?
You know what I mean.
Like what is it about it thatdraws you that continues, I mean
, even as seasoned veterans asyou are?
Why is it that you even botherwith it anymore?
I mean, is there something thatyou still find appealing?
(39:46):
Is it something that you feelcomplacent about?
Or is it something that youfeel that you could spend an
entire other life chasing andyou still wouldn't even begin to
scratch the surface of it?
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH and we will be right back.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
AM 1070 and FM 1033, the answer.
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Speaker 6 (41:36):
KM1070 app.
That's what you need on yoursmartphone.
Km1070 listeners can tap theapp to visit our show hosts.
It has a talkback feature whereyou can record an answer to any
question we ask on the air.
You can use the app to call AM1070.
Send us an email or visit ourwebsite, am1070theanswercom.
You can even use the KNTH appto wake up to AM 1070.
(41:59):
That'll make it a great day.
Go to the app store and get theKNTH app from AM 1070.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
The Answer he was born in the summer of his 27th
year, coming home to a placehe'd never been before.
(42:30):
He left yesterday behind him.
You might say he's born again.
You might say he found the keyfor every door when he first
came to the mountains.
His life was far away, on theroad and hanging by a song, but
(42:55):
the string's already broken andhe doesn't really care.
It keeps changing fast and itdon't last for long.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
But the Colorado, welcome back to a show of Faith.
On AM1070, the Answer.
Sharon, we miss you.
Hope everything's going greatup in Dallas.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
And, by the way, just this last plug I want to
reemphasize the Devil's Delusion, and the subtitle is the
Atheism and Its ScientificPretensions.
Oh good, oh, it's excellent,Excellent.
I cannot.
That's one of my five bestbooks I've ever read.
So, Rudy, you were going tojump in.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
Yeah, I just wanted to kind of close up.
I know we have about tenminutes left, but I was trying
to explain before the break butI essentially wanted.
So we talked a little bit aboutsort of what we find and again
I like the way you put it,Father is proofs, right, Like
(44:04):
things that we find beyond areasonable doubt, right, that we
find appealing as somethingexisting, that is beyond us,
right, this sort of creativeintelligence that exists.
And I wanted to kind of turn itnow a little bit.
And from you guys' perspective,from the particular faith that
(44:27):
you profess, what is it aboutthese faiths that you find the
most appealing, I would say, ingenuinely pursuing that truth?
I mean, what is it that youfind that facilitates that?
What is it that you find thatkind of gives you that want,
(44:51):
that need?
I mean, I know we talked aboutit as being something inherent
in humanity.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
You know, rudy, for me, I don't think that I could
live without my relationshipwith God.
I don't think that I could getup in the morning and find any
reason to do anything.
If there is no hope, if thereis nothing in the future, if
(45:20):
this life doesn't have anymeaning, then I, you know, I, I
love um.
I can't remember her name, ifthat's all there is, if that's
all there is, my friend.
And let's keep dancing, let'sbreak out the booze and right
and have a ball hedonism yeah,it's so.
To me, the very idea of livingwithout seeking the meaning of
(45:46):
at the center of the universe isso abhorrent that I would have
to live constantly high orconstantly drunk, because if I
didn't, I would be tempted tosuicide I don't think I would be
led to suicide, but I wouldfind the world to be very
depressing I said I would betempted.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
But yes, exactly in other words, there's also
something to be said for themeaning we make for ourselves.
But the questions that Mariolisted, the four questions that
Mario listed, I just think thatJudaism answers them the best.
I think that it's rational,reasonable, practical and
(46:31):
practicable faith that gives theperson meaning, and that's what
I want to share and spread, andI just the basis of it is a God
who cares.
He cares what we do, cares whatwe eat, think how we play, how
(46:53):
we relate to each other and tome.
All of the questions thatpeople ask about religion, about
faith, about life, about death,about all the religious,
spiritual questions, to me seemto be best answered within
Judaism, and so that's why Iwant to promote it yeah that's
(47:14):
why I work for it, that's whyit's interesting?
Speaker 2 (47:16):
because when you say that, I have the exact same
reasoning.
Absolutely.
When I hear jesus speaking, I'mhearing an echo of the most
profound longings of my life andthat's why I am a believer in
Jesus.
Whenever I look at theresurrection, at the crucifixion
(47:39):
, whenever I hear him talk, Ialways like the idea of what I
think.
It was CS Lewis who said thatwhen Jesus stands there and says
I am the way, the truth and thelife, you either have to say
he's a liar, a lunatic or a lord, or he is a legend.
(48:02):
It's one of those four.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
There are other possibilities.
But ultimately I believe in theNew Testament and I'm a
christian because to me there isno better answer which is
exactly the same thing, and Ican't imagine anybody of
religion, whatever religion,answering any differently, even
(48:28):
even though we disagree on basictheological beliefs, even
though all religions willdisagree with all religions on
some very basic beliefs, but aperson isn't going to devote
their lives to their faith ifthey didn't hold what Mario said
(48:51):
and what what I said, andthey'll say it too hindu,
buddhist, baptist, muslim.
You have, jane, some sort ofyou'd have to.
You have to, yeah, rudy I thinkit's.
Speaker 5 (49:04):
I think it's fundamentally based, though and
I'm going to go back to thesaying on this sort of genuine
pursuit of truth, right?
I mean, without that it doesn'twork Like at a very fundamental
level, right?
You're always trying to findthat purpose.
You know, whether it's hiddenor not, whether it's revealed to
(49:28):
you or not, it's revealed toyou or not, I think all human
beings.
We have this, which, to me, isquote unquote, another one of
these proofs, right, it's thefact that people that want
there's people, the fact thatthere's people that want to live
a life of meaning, right?
That want to live a life thatthey do good with themselves,
(49:54):
with their family, with theircommunity, and they're willing
and able to sacrifice everythingfor that, especially their
families.
Right?
I mean that to me, look, youdon't get that outside of sort
of this genuine belief thatthere's something out there that
(50:14):
loves you with everything,infinitely.
Right, and so go ahead, father.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
No, I'm agreeing with you.
I'm agreeing with you.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
Yeah, so I just find that I understand it's a choice,
and I guess the more I meancall me biased or call me
brainwashed, I don't know, andI've really tried.
Look, I've read a lot of these,the Nietzsches and the Hegel's
and the Descartes, like I'veread them, we've studied them,
(50:52):
you know, and again, I don'tknow if it's just the previous
things that I've studied or read, but to me they just they read
as if they're just devoid of anyactual meaning in what they're
saying oh okay, because I seeyou were quoting Hegel and all
those people and I thought onour show we've kind of been
(51:14):
rather upset with things thatthey've written the very same.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Well, not all of them , but some of the people that
you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Hegel yeah, they're very.
They're the darlings of thesecular community.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
On a different, if I may bring up.
We have a request here.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
For a question that has to be asked of the rabbi.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
From my friend Three minutes.
From my friend Pete Hi Pete InWashington State in Seattle.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Whoa far away.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yes, he is listening, and Pete said today in the
Catholic Church we'recelebrating something called the
Feast of the Presentation.
Speaker 9 (51:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Where the baby is married.
After the 40 days of her youknow the giving birth she brings
baby Jesus into the temple forthe presentation and the
question is male baby to bepresented in the temple 40 days
after birth?
Does the Jewish presentationstill continue to be celebrated?
Speaker 3 (52:18):
I have no idea what you're talking about
presentation.
I think what you're talkingabout is referenced in the five
books of Moses and it's calledthe redemption of the firstborn
called the redemption of thefirstborn.
It's basically there's no reasonto present a male baby, except
(52:38):
there is a ritual, for If thefirstborn first to open the womb
is a male and it's naturalchildbirth, it's pidyon haben,
it is redemption of thefirstborn.
You may remember that Moses,that God said the firstborn are
not, may remember that Mosesthat God said the firstborn are
not going to be my priests, butyou will redeem them from me,
okay.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
The gospel says today , when the days were completed
for their purification accordingto the law of Moses, mary and
Joseph took Jesus up toJerusalem to present him to the
Lord.
Just as it is written in thelaw of the Lord every male that
opens the womb shall beconsecrated to the Lord.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Just as it is written in the law of the Lord every
male that opens the womb shallbe consecrated to the Lord.
That's not a presentation.
That is redemption of thefirstborn.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Okay, which is what I thought you were talking about.
So that's what, pete, and yes,they are definitely doing that
today.
If the firstborn is male, toopen the womb, natural
childbirth.
Okay, there you go, pete.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Numbers, chapter 18.
Oh, numbers chapter 18.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Hey, you sounded like David there for a minute.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
I know you know Chapter and verse You're getting
to be Protestant I have thatGPT.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Don't tell David he'll get a swelled head.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Well, who's in charge next week?
I don't know who was last week.
You were last week, I think Iwas there before ok, so it's
David next week ok, we'll findout if you're listening, david,
we have just given you in yourabsence.
You selected it's your luckyday, smile, you're on candid
(54:10):
camera.
Ok, well, it's your lucky day,smile, you're on candid camera.
Ok, well, it's Super BowlSunday we'll still be here we
will still be here, I know.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Mario would really like to give up because he'd
really like to see the SuperBowl.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
I hate all sports you do.
Oh, I hate all sports.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
It's a totally meaningless group when we talk
about football, he says who madethe basket?
Speaker 2 (54:35):
So, friends, this is TNTH and you've been listening
to the Show of Faith.
Please, during this week, keepus in your prayers, because you
are going to be in ours.
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