February 10, 2025 • 54 mins
Can a psychologist's exploration of religious themes captivate a global audience?
Join us on "A Show of Faith" as we uncover how Jordan Peterson's work resonates across diverse cultures. Our eclectic panel—a professor, a priest, a millennial, and a rabbi—bring their distinct insights to dissect Peterson's latest book, "We Who Wrestle with God," and his intriguing relationship with faith.
We ponder the question of whether Peterson can truly be considered a Christian, and how his ideas about striving for the "highest good" might clash with personal interpretations.
Our discussion ventures into the profound as we question the interplay between human consciousness and the existence of a divine being, guided by the philosophies of Carl Jung and Peterson.
Is God an objective reality or merely a construct of our minds? We weigh the scientific theories of the universe's origins against religious narratives, scrutinizing how these perspectives shape our understanding of faith. Despite potential gaps in his theological approach, we appreciate Peterson's impact on cultural and religious dialogues, recognizing his ability to illuminate the role of faith in a modern context.
In a lighter vein, we tackle the whimsical notion of God's existence without human acknowledgment, embracing the theological concept of God's self-sufficiency or aseity. Our conversation playfully touches on social media's validation-seeking and Martin Buber's philosophical insights, while also sharing amusing anecdotes from our own lives.
As the episode wraps up, we underscore the importance of humor amidst life's challenges and invite our listeners to engage with us through emails and our streaming platforms.
Keep us in your thoughts and prayers, and remember, you can always tune in to more spirited conversations on "A Show of Faith.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I do, but I gotta think twice Before I give my
heart away.
And I know all the games youplay Because I play them too.
Oh, I need some time off fromthat emotion Time to pick my
part up off the floor.
Oh well, that love comes down,down with Abnimo son.
(00:27):
Well, it takes a storm there,baby, but I'm sure to keep the
door Cause I gotta have faith.
I gotta have faith Cause Igotta have faith, faith, faith.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I gotta have faith, faith, faith.
Welcome to A Show of Faithwhere a professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology and philosophy and
anything else of interest inreligion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, hey, we'dlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith athotmailcom.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening pretty
(01:00):
much anywhere.
Podcasts are heard.
Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo,retired pastor of St Cyril of
Alexandria, in the 10,000 blockof Westheimer.
That's the sound of one handclapping and that's the voice of
our professor David Capes,baptist minister and director of
academic programming for theLanier Theological Library.
Good to see you guys tonight.
Good to see you too.
(01:20):
Rudy Koga is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer, hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of St Thomas.
Howdy, howdy, hey, hey, rudy.
I am Rabbi Stuart Federo,retired rabbi of Congregation
Jarhashalom in the Clear Lakearea of Houston, texas.
(01:42):
Miranda is our board operatortonight and Miranda helps us
sound.
Great.
Nobody else is here, right?
Crystal?
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Crystal's here.
Yeah, you just hadn't seen her.
You haven't looked up from yourphone yet.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
No, there's nobody here, just kidding.
I can't see that side, that'smy excuse.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Welcome to a show of faith on AM 1070 Answer.
It's good to see you, good tobe with you guys tonight.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
You know, David, I don't think mine is on.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Are you on?
Speaker 5 (02:08):
I cannot hear myself in my own oh maybe Are you
plugged in.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Are you plugged in?
This is not on.
We have noises coming on.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
I mean I can hear myself in the ambient, but I
can't hear myself in the.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You can't hear yourself.
Can you hear us?
No, no, can't hear us either.
Okay, well, we'll get thatsorted out.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Oh wait, it almost went on Almost.
Now my right can't chat.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I'll bet it's the plug.
What's going on?
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Rudy's on with us.
All right, we've got to getthis going.
I am, are you better?
Here we go.
We'll try all the differentparts here, plugging things in.
All right, anyway, we'regetting this thing started here.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Thank you, does that work, does that work?
All right?
Very good, it's the plug.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
It's the plug, all right.
Anyway, good to see you, hey,rudy.
Are you down there, rudy?
Yes, I am All right.
Anyway, good to see you, hey,rudy.
Are you down there, Rudy?
Yes, sir, all right, keepgetting phone calls.
I'm not sure exactly why, butat any rate do you know, down
there in Guatemala, jordanPeterson, jordan Peterson.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Have you heard Jordan Peterson In Brazil right now,
and he's actually made it downhere too.
He's pretty world famous, Iwould think.
I mean it's pretty hard.
I would be surprised of aperson who's not heard of.
So let me ask you You've got tolive, you've got to really be
outside of the Internet, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
All right, so let me ask you a question, then.
How would you portray jordanpeter religiously?
Peterson, that's what I said.
How would you?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
um, I would you know, I thought, I thought about this
and it was a good article.
Um, from public discourse.
I'm sure you guys will talkabout it later, but, uh, I would
describe him as, um, his wifejust recently converted to
catholicism, maybe like a yearago, I think his wife did okay I
(04:38):
think he yeah um, I think he'slike.
Carl Jung but that doesn't hatereligion.
I don't know if that makes anysense.
I think he's a psychologistright.
So I think he's, if you grabCarl Jung and actually gave him
(05:19):
a sense of how this sort ofJudeo-Christian tradition has
been so important for the worldand tries to understand it from
a sort of kind of.
Jungian perspective.
That's the sense that I getfrom reading.
I've read Maps of Meaning.
I've read 12 Rules for Life.
So I haven't read his new book.
It recently came out.
I'm not sure I'm too interestedin reading it.
If I'm going to be completelyhonest.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah, and this particular article did not.
Now it works yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Didn't actually win me over on it.
No, no To answer the rabbi.
Would you describe him as aChristian?
No, I do not.
Maybe he's trying.
I wouldn't go so far.
I don't think he knows aChristian.
(06:13):
I know, I know.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
A lot of stuff going on here.
Jordan Peterson's calling in, Ithink, is what it is.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, he wants to defend himself against the
Anschluss.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
You know, here's the thing I mean, he's one of these
folks that is, he's everywhere.
It seems like.
Do you see him everywhere, Iguess, father.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I mean you turn on YouTube.
He's on YouTube.
You look at the Internet, he'sin a variety of places.
He's got his own podcast, kindof things would you and would
you please just answer thatthing and just hang it up there
there we go bish, pish, tosh,yeah, all right, um, but but in
(06:58):
your he's, he's sort ofeverywhere it seems like right
and a lot of people don't quiteunderstand what he's doing or
what he's up to.
But he came on the scene anumber of years ago.
I can't remember exactly wherehe was, but he was up in one of
the In Canada.
In Canada, yeah, he's fromCanada, right, but he's a
(07:19):
psychologist.
He goes all over now, but he iskind of a world-class guy.
So here's the article thatwe're referencing in public
discourse.
It's called Jordan Peterson andthe Problem of God, and he's
written a new book called we whoWrestle with God.
I think is the title.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And Stuart does not like that title at all.
It's called CulturalAppropriation.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Yeah Well, we'll let you talk about that in just a
little bit, because we'll cometo that.
But essentially in that bookthe writer says that what we
don't have is somebody withPeterson trying to really get
into the stories of the Bibleand talk about the Bible so much
.
But the Bible becomes a sort ofa means to an end, that is, to
(08:09):
talk about other sort ofmythological, symbolic stories
that come from the better partof human culture, in other words
, not from God.
But all of these support hismain thesis, and here's what he
says.
The main thesis of JordanPeterson is in his book, the new
(08:29):
book, but also in a lot of hisother books, that is, that every
individual and this is reallyinteresting should aim at that
which is highest and organizelife and, by extension, society
accordingly.
That's kind of the big idea.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
And that is correct.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
That every individual think about that.
Every individual should aim atthe highest, assuming that we'll
all agree on what the highestis.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
And that's the point.
You don't.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
And that's the thing we don't right.
And sometimes his highest andmy highest might come into
conflict.
So what happens then in society?
Is that enough for us to thinkabout the good life, the good
society, the good world thatwe're all sort of looking
(09:20):
forward to?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
and we're thinking about.
As long as you have humanbeings, determine what that high
, high point, high thing is, thehighest good, the highest good
is going to be, then it willstray from the moral and ethical
it has to by it will, becausethe problem becomes that what if
(09:47):
you have which you will havehuman beings who say well, the
highest good is my good.
Or the highest good is murder.
That's right.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Getting rid of the riffraff yeah, yeah, so you know
it's too broad.
It's too broad, but I don'tdisagree from this perspective
(10:26):
that, given the absence of truefaith in God, you should aim for
the highest common good, thehighest common good for all
humanity.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And that's true, but again you're going to go back to
who determines.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
I'm in agreement, but notice what I said.
It is not the highest good.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Because the highest good.
You could interpret the highestgood as my individual good good
.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
You could do that with the common good too well
you can, but.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
but at the moment you say common, you have a basis of
argument that you are excludingsomeone, some.
So, for example, if, if, if wedon't take care of the earth,
that we're not taking care ofthe common good, if you're
saying, no, my nation, no, no,no, no, the common good is the
(11:10):
good of all humanity.
So I think you could agreephilosophically on what is good
and you could agree on common,meaning the entire humanity,
Right for everybody.
Yes, so I think at least youwould have a basis for arguing
what is the common good, basedon what it included and what it
(11:31):
excluded?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It would provide a standard by which it's judged.
Some yeah Right.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
But you know, what's interesting to me is the moment
that you said.
That is when I the theetymology of the word worship,
because the word worship isexactly what that is everybody
worships something.
Why?
Because the word worship isfirst of all the suffix of that
(11:58):
word, is ship.
Ship is meaning the art orpractice of anything Penmanship,
craftsmanship, sportsmanship,anything.
Ship is the art or practice ofanything, and the WOR is a
shortened version of the wordworth, and so you have worth,
(12:18):
ship, so worth.
Ship is, by definition, seekingto put the things that are
worthwhile in their hierarchicalorder.
And the moment you say thatyou're seeking for the highest
worth, and that's what Petersonis saying.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's a naval destroyer, a warship.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
No, that's a W-A-R.
Yeah warship.
Sorry, it's just.
Like you know, I asked youearlier if you had ever heard of
the superb owl.
Yes, and have you have, youguys.
Rudy, have you heard of thesuperb owl?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I have not, it's right.
Speaker 5 (12:59):
Rudy, how can you not have heard of the superb owl?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You used to be in the United States.
Yes, rudy, especially tonight,the Super Bowl, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
The Super Bowl.
The Super Bowl.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
You just change the letters around just a little bit
.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
But anyway, to me it just fits the definition of
worship.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
And I tell people, when you come to church and you
come to worship God, what areyou doing?
You're saying I am here to makesure that my relationship with
you is the highest thing in mylife.
Yeah, Period.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yep, yep and, in a sense, we all.
As you said, we all do that youall worship.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
Everybody worships something.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
What you talk about the most, what you think about
the most, is usually the thingthat you worship.
If you talk about money themost, if you talk about sports
the most, if you talk about it'sif you talk about sports the
most, whatever it is, it's funny, it's what you really think is
ultimately worth I had anexperience just yesterday.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
my I couldn't.
My lock on my condominiumwouldn't work, I couldn't lock
it, and so I had to leave mycondominium open until the
locksmith got there.
It was 24 hours so I had toleave, so I had to go to the
office and I had to leave mycondominium open.
So I took the two things thatwere worthwhile to me.
(14:27):
What did you take, charlie?
My dog and my computer.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
You had to decide what was worth.
Yeah, what was worth?
Speaker 5 (14:35):
I didn't care about anything else but Charlie, and
Charlie's my dog, charlie's yourdog.
What a cool dog.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yeah, charlie, yeah, well, we all have to decide that
right.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
That's right Everybody has.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
If you're in, California and your house is
burning down.
You've got to decide.
What am I going to get outbefore?
That house goes up.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
And right now, the most worthwhile, important thing
right now we have to do isCommercial, commercial break.
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Okay, let's come back to Welcome back to A Show of
Faith.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
You know they actually sang this song tonight
at the game at the Suburb Owl.
Really, yes, why?
That's the Super Bowl?
It was part of an ad campaignthey were doing.
They had the whole stadiumsinging that song.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Is it still going on?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
The Super, the Super Owl, the Super Owl.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
The Super Owl I can't say which the?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Super Owl, the Super Bowl is still going on.
Well it was.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
No.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I'm sure it'll be the 9-9-30.
Probably 9-9-30, yeah.
Hey, we're talking tonightabout Jordan Peterson and the
question, or the problem, of God.
And the problem of God that israised by this article we're
talking about and by his book isdoes in fact God exist or is
God just, in a sense, the resultof human consciousness?
(18:44):
Because, going back to yourword, was that a burp?
Speaker 5 (18:51):
No, it was a growl growl, grim Growl.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
It sounded like this Grimace.
Okay, well, so you're not happywith that question?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
No, because it's a silly question.
You know why?
Because it only considers humanconsciousness.
What did the existence of theworld, the existence of the
universe, the Big Bang in thebeginning, what went bang?
I mean, you have issues of, of,of existence that are beyond
(19:23):
the human.
That, to me, that argument isextremely anthropocentric.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Mario, didn't you know that God didn't exist until
the sixth day?
Fifth day didn't exist becausehumans didn't exist.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying,but that's what.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
I'm saying when do you get that?
You know the whole issue ofeven if you believe in the Big
Bang, even if you believe inmultiple universes, for God's
sake, you have to have somewherethat begins.
The universe is not eternal.
Nobody believes that it had.
Universe is not eternal.
Nobody believes that it had tocome from somewhere.
It had to come from somewhere,something.
That's why I love that littlebitty, that little thing.
(19:58):
In the beginning there wasnothing and nothing, happened to
nothing and nothing for noreason.
One day went bang and madelittle bits of everything.
Then became dinosaurs.
Makes perfect sense, you know.
Just stupid.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
He says mockingly.
He says mockingly he saysmocking me I'm mocking, but when
?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
we say the word god oh go ahead, yeah well, I was
just going to say it's importantyou, you got to understand.
And I've look, I've listened toa lot of uh, dr peterson's.
I listen to a lot of DrPeterson's lectures and I just
want to say, you know, he reallyis in my sense, in the sense
(20:40):
that I get a really smart guyokay, but he comes from the sort
of Jungian school right of CarlJung.
(21:21):
And so he studied a lot of hispsychology and I think it
reflected in a lot of the thingsthat he talks about, I agree.
Oh, no doubt, necessarily.
I think it's incomplete, but Istill think he's having a
positive impact.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Rudy will you're, you put your finger on culture.
You put your finger on it.
He is wonderful.
I love jordan peterson.
He is incomplete for something.
That's the whole point I likehim for something.
Yeah, but he is incomplete.
He's not bad, he's incomplete.
It's kind of like Protestants,you know you're not bad.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Just incomplete and many of us have no name.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
We're non-denominational.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Non-denominational no name.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Father Mario, I'm surprised you make it out of
that room alive every Sunday.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Every week.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You have to say that.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, he says that, says all the time.
Well, again, this is not acritique of Jordan Peterson, no,
it isn't.
It's an appreciation for JordanPeterson, but just sort of
understanding where he's comingfrom, because I think he is
those things.
He has helped a lot of peopleunderstand faith in many ways,
(22:33):
but he's not doing so as anevangelist, he's not doing so as
a Christian or a Catholic or aProtestant or anything like that
.
But one of the things that thisarticle raises and his book
raises and Carl Jung basicallytalked about in one of his final
books, 1954, something likethat was is God an objective
(22:59):
reality or is God just somethingthat we in our consciousness
have described, we have needed,invented as necessary?
It brings us to our fullness ofour humanity in some ways.
I think he would agree with allof those things.
(23:20):
But the question is is there anobjective reality?
And if there's not, so what'sthe big deal?
Speaker 5 (23:26):
No, but see, that's where I find the argument just
silly because of the objectivenature of reality.
You know, where did theindependent of my consciousness,
where did the objective natureof reality come from?
(23:46):
All matter has to have anorigin, and so, even if you
don't have human consciousness,matter still exists.
And so where did it come fromit's contingent?
It's not, it does, it's not ofits own origin.
Matter cannot exist in and ofitself forever.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
So does it come from itself?
Speaker 5 (24:08):
so the question is so .
I don't disagree that there isa high amount of your own
perception of God which comesfrom your own psychological
needs.
There's no question about that.
But to question the objectivityof God based solely on human
(24:28):
consciousness, I think iswoefully short-sighted.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Stuart, I would agree .
I I don't, you know, I forgotwho originally said this and I
used to think it was cutesy andclever.
Now I'm not.
So now I'm not.
I think they're doing that toharass us.
But God made humans.
(24:57):
God made man in God's own imageand man, being a gentleman,
returned the favor.
Yeah, I used to think that wasclever and cute.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Now I'm not so sure, and now I am sure that we need
to go to a break.
This is 1070.
Give me a break.
I will 1070 KNDH and we'll beright back AM 1070, the answer.
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The mighty jungle.
The lion sleeps tonight.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps
tonight.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
The aria.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM1070 Answer.
This is an email fromPresbyterian Mark.
I'll be in a week late.
The Big Bang was not anexplosion.
This is a common misconception.
The quote-unquote Big Bang,which was originally proposed by
a Catholic priest who was anastronomer, was a derisive term
applied to the theory by somepeople who believed in a static
(28:31):
universe.
The quote Big Bang was actuallya rapid expansion, not
explosion, of space, roughlyfrom the size of a proton to a
basketball in about a billionthof a trillionth of a trillionth
of a second and at large scalesthe observable universe is
uniform to about one part in10,000.
Grace and peace, presbyterianMark.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
But Presbyterian Mark .
What is the difference betweena rapid expansion?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
and an explosion.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
It's just whenever you're talking about stuff like
this, the only thing we have arehuman terms.
You can of course I don'tbelieve it was an explosion.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
And you know what?
I don't think it went bang.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
No.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Or even a big bang.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
It was no, but the whole point, it's an analogy.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, it's an analogy , that's a good description, and
you still have to ask thequestion where did the material
that exploded or that expanded,where did it come?
Speaker 5 (29:29):
from what did he call it?
A proton?
From the size of a proton to abasketball, yeah, but when you
have the moment you say size,you're already saying material.
And where did that materialcome from and what made that
material expanded?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What caused it?
What caused it and all of asudden, nothing happened?
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, nothing happened nothing.
To me.
That argument never ceases toamaze me, because there's only
two choices Either matter iseternal, which it is not, which
you couldn't tell by theexpanding universe, or it had to
have a start somewhere.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
It doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
In the beginning.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
God.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The end.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Yeah, and that's where Judaism begins, that's
where the Christian Bible beginstoo.
I mean, that's just part of ourtradition as well.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Right.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
But we stole it from him.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yes, you did.
You got with it and startedgiving weird interpretations.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
Here's the book that is entitled we who Wrestle With
God, and he has entitled thatbook in large part because of
his conversations over the yearswith Dennis Prager that have
been about the Bible and he'sgotten a lot of his Bible
training not from the NewTestament side of things,
(30:47):
because this particular book isabout Deuteronomy and it's about
Genesis and the Torah.
This particular book is aboutDeuteronomy and it's about
Genesis and the Torah the firstfive books of Moses, and then
it's also about the book of Job,so it's not a lot of New
Testament stuff in there.
There's more and more and more.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Well, that's because all the interesting stuff comes
from the Bible.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Well, that's right, it's enough.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
But you are concerned that he stole that, not stole
it, not stole it he borrowed itBecause everything is stolen in
Christianity.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
He is taking something that is explicitly
Jewish and referring explicitlyto the people of Israel, and
he's taking the definition ofthe term Israel and applying it
to those who are not Israel.
Okay, which means those whowrestle with God.
That's where the story, that'swhere the name comes from.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
In a sense, what I take it he's saying is that
everybody who thinks about Godand wrestles with the idea of
God is wrestling with God.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And I understand what he's saying but I wish he'd use
a different term.
I wish he would use somethingelse.
Yeah, you know, and you'reright, he probably got it from
Dennis Prager and that doesn'tmake it okay.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Well, it doesn't make it okay.
It just from your point of view, but I think he's trying to
appeal to a broader audiencethan just Christians or just
Protestants or people who comefrom a monotheistic heritage, in
a sense the book is about.
(32:25):
In a sense it is about God tosome degree, but what it means
to wrestle with God, and this iswhat he says.
To wrestle with God, he says,seems to signify a process of
continual self-discovery, ofcontinual striving to find the
(32:46):
highest principle.
It says we are seeking for thehighest principle and then we
organize our lives around thatrevelation, whatever that
revelation is, which seems morelike to me enlightenment than it
is revelation.
Right, because he's not usingthe word revelation the way that
Jews use it.
(33:06):
Or Christians, because inChristianity we think revelation
means the idea that God acts,that there is a God and that God
acts and speaks in order todisclose himself to humanity.
Right, revelation reveals, toreveal.
Right, so it's not just okay,as I find, as I find, as I find,
as I find this highest good andI discover it.
(33:27):
That's not revelation, becauseit started inside of me and such
.
So there's a distinction therethat I think is very, very, very
significant.
Here's just a few of the thingshe says in the book.
When he's talking about God,he's looking at the image of God
(33:47):
, the figure of God in Genesis 1.
God is presented as a processor a spirit guided by the aim of
Having all things exist andflourish, a spirit guided by
love.
In other words, in the story ofCain and Abel, god is shown to
be the spirit with whom we canenter into a covenant whenever
(34:11):
we make the necessary sacrificesto place what is highest
uppermost in our lives.
Genesis 12, when God callsAbraham a story, god is
represented as the spiritcalling Abraham to an adventure,
and the adventure is one ofself-discovery to develop
(34:33):
oneself personally, to developyourself and to become that
person that you couldpotentially be.
So there is a bit of adifferent way.
I don't think he got all ofthat from Prager.
I think some of that just cameout of his young psychology and
(34:56):
everything.
But you notice that he's tryingto take seriously, from his
point of view, these images ofGod God as a creator, god as one
who establishes rules andregulations and laws, and God as
the one who calls people into acovenant.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
The way you just now describe God in the book of
Genesis in those passages is nothow I hear Peterson describe
God in those passages.
He does not describe God inGenesis 1-1 as creator, and I
can't remember how you.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Yeah, God is the process or spirit guidance.
No, no, but not creator.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
He's the process of creation, but he is not the
creator.
Right?
I forgot the other one you saidcan't enable, can't enable the
story.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
God is the process guided by the aim of sorry.
God is the process or thespirit by whom we can enter into
a covenant whenever we make thenecessary sacrifices that's not
how you just now described itlater in what you just said.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Now, okay, because the way in which he describes it
, I think, is foreign.
Or let me rephrase that it's anice interpretation of those
stories in the book of Genesis,but it's not what the book of
Genesis was saying.
It's merely his interpretationof it.
A spiritual process?
(36:26):
No, he's creator In thebeginning, god created.
He's not a process, he's acreator who calls the world into
being.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
Well, that's why the whole thing is to me a little
weird, because you're reducingGod to an uh, to a process
internal to consciousness, andgod is not in a process of
internal to consciousness.
God is the creator, he's not.
He can't be reduced to aninternal event inside a human
skull yes, right, right, rightnow now where we, where we
(37:02):
actually apprehend God and thinkof God.
We think of God with inside ourheads our brains right, it's
like we think of anything andeverything else, but we cannot
reduce him to that.
We can't reduce him to that.
Yeah, rudy, what do you got onthis?
Speaker 1 (37:17):
I think like, fundamentally, we're missing
this sort of entire concept ofgrace.
Right, that it's not just thisthing, like this kind of myth,
that exists out there.
That's just for us to kind ofself-improve over these
(37:37):
experiences that I've had, Imean as a Christian, and of
course, to Jews too.
This is the Word of God, right,as he intended it right.
It is a supernatural truth thatexists irrelevant of us,
without us.
You know, whether we exist ornot, whether the world exists or
(37:57):
not, god isn't a thing.
God isn't necessarily a spiritor this process.
He is I am.
I mean, when he speaks to Mosesand he says I am, that is right
, it's not.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
He is the very essence of all.
And I think when you don'tattack well, not say attack, but
when you don't look at theBible in that perspective, right
, and you're kind of just leftwith, and I keep kind of
reminding myself this and I knowwe have to go to a break.
But I mean, to me Peterson isjust he really refrains from
(38:40):
calling himself a Christian orto sort of acknowledging that
supernatural truth he's.
If you were to kind of stripall that out and just look at
these stories let's say just thestories what sort of moral
basis can be extracted from it?
(39:01):
Like, what sort of exegesis canyou do out of this thing?
And that's what he's doing,right, I mean, he pulls positive
things, but he's missing thebasis, that's why I call him
incomplete.
Speaker 5 (39:12):
It's not.
It's a very good thing.
It's a beginning stage.
It can be an open door.
It's a step in the rightdirection, but it's not complete
.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
One of the things this book does is he looks at
things like the Lion King.
He looks at the Lord of theRings trilogy, other things like
that as well.
He looks at Harry Potter.
He looks at a lot of otherthings.
It's great literature,important literature that
contains many of the samefeatures of good and evil and
(39:44):
struggle and wrestling againstthese kind of things.
He looks at all of those and hecomes through and at the very
end it seems like all fiction iscreated equal.
At that point.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Right, including the Bible.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Well, the Bible?
Yeah, it could be at thatparticular point.
But I think he would demur fromcalling it a fiction because I
don't think he would want to sayhe's using the religious
studies terminology of myth.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, the embodiment of truth in a story, in a story.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
Yeah, we've got to go to break.
Speaker 5 (40:18):
This is 1070 KNTH the Answer and we will answer your
questions when we come back.
Speaker 10 (40:25):
AM 1070 and FM 1033, the Answer.
Speaker 11 (40:28):
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Speaker 7 (41:58):
Hey, it's Andy Hoosier with the Voice of Reason
.
You know your favoriteconservative talk radio show
where we cover the latestcurrent events, recap your week,
have some deeper discussionsand have some fun, sarcastic
witty and original perspectivesto the issues that matter to you
.
Yeah, you know the show.
Be sure to join me everySaturday right here and enjoy
the most energetic, fast-pacedintense couple hours of
(42:58):
conservatism on the radio.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
It's the Voice of Reason and it's all right here.
Did it really, when it came out, bothered me.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Did it really.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yes, it did.
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 1070, the Answer.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
All right, here's the question of the hour.
Here's the question If therewere no humans, would there be a
God?
Would God exist?
Oh jeez.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I mean I In your opinion.
That's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
I just think that's such a stupid question.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Well, it's.
No, okay, if you're saying butyou understand that there are a
lot of people that think thatthe idea of God is sort of a so
then the question is what if youhad no humans?
Speaker 5 (43:41):
would reality exist?
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Say that last part again.
Speaker 5 (43:47):
If there were no humans to be conscious of it,
would reality exist?
And the answer is yes.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Does a tree?
When a tree falls in a forest,does it make a sound?
Speaker 5 (43:58):
So if reality exists and matter is contingent, matter
cannot self-create.
Therefore there is a God.
This whole argument is based onthe existence of the human
being being the sole evidencefor the creation of God.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Right.
So our writer of this articlesays all of this depends on
whether God exists in say orwhether his existence is only in
anima hominis.
Which means, which meansbasically in the soul of man.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
But that's why, even with that writer, god cannot
exist solely in the soul of man,because reality exists in the
soul of man, because realityexists in the dependency of man.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
Well, I mean, he's obviously critiquing the whole
project that he's on there.
So there's this idea intheology called the aseity of
God.
Aseity of God.
The aseity of God means thatGod needs nothing outside of
himself to be himself.
That's right.
He needs nothing.
(45:06):
He doesn't need the universe.
The universe has not made any.
The existence of the universeand all human beings and all the
worship that is given doesn'tmake him any more God than he
was before.
He was God already and he needsnothing.
Human beings, on the other hand, we need everything outside of
(45:29):
us to make us who we are.
We need air, we need water, weneed food, we need gravity, we
need strong and weak forces.
You know, we need all thatstuff in order for us to be
human beings and to even bealive.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Let me ask you something.
Yes, the term God is a God, adoctor has to have patience.
That's a bad example.
(46:14):
I can't think of an example offthe top of my head.
But in order for God to be God,doesn't God have to have those
who acknowledge that God is God?
Speaker 5 (46:26):
if God is a title, he would still be who he is
independently if he didn't havethat title.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Exactly that I would agree with.
But in the way the question isstated it seems unclear.
Speaker 5 (46:42):
That's why you know, god is not a thing.
He is being itself, he is to be.
God's being is to be, to be ornot to be, no, just to be.
To be that's God's being is tobe.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
Is being, yeah, being , the ground of being, yeah,
yeah, the basic, I mean beforeexistence, prior to existence,
any of those kind of things.
So the whole project that he'son about here is a very
interesting project and Icommend him for it, but I don't
think he goes far enough.
I don't think he's able to.
From where he stands today, asa psychologist, as a podcaster,
(47:22):
as an influencer, as a writerand as a YouTube host.
He doesn't really want, nordoes he have the opportunity to
be able to dwell down, get downon some of these more
significant aspects oftheological study and training,
(47:42):
but he is going to interpret allthese biblical ideas and
theological ideas through thelens of his Jungian psychology.
Is that a good thing, rudy, oris that a bad thing, you think?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I think what he's doing, and maybe his role, is a
good thing, because I think hemakes the Bible let's say the
entirety of it, I'm going to usethe word digestible to a lot of
people who maybe before had noinkling or appetite for it.
(48:21):
So I think he's piquing thecuriosity of a lot of people,
yeah, and?
And when people start goinginto that, then you're going to
start reading other authors,authors that that dig deeper
into the actual theology, intothe philosophy.
That isn't just into the actualtheology, into the philosophy.
(48:43):
That isn't just sort of apsychology right.
What I'm saying is he's goingto leave you wanting more.
Speaker 5 (48:53):
He's made religion intellectually respectable.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
I agree.
Speaker 5 (48:59):
Not that he wasn't before in terms of religious
people, but to the scientism oftoday.
He has made religion in ascientism environment.
Scientism is basicallymaterialism, but people in the
past were laughing at people offaith and now he has muted that
(49:22):
laughter because he has givenpsychological respectability to
the whole notion of the possibleexistence of God and the
benefits of biblical religion.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
And I think that also reflects something that Dennis
Prager did with his RationalBible series of commentaries on
the Bible the Rational Bible.
Speaker 4 (49:52):
One of the things that Buber commented on.
Martin Buber, who is a Jewishphilosopher, in the book says
that human beings in the 20thcentury have become incapable of
apprehending a reality that isindependent of themselves.
In other words, if there is areality beyond ourselves, we're
not able to understand itwithout interjecting ourselves
into it.
(50:12):
And so, to be able to thinkabout these greatest goods, to
be able to think about God, weinject ourselves into those
realities and we make them allabout us in a way.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I believe it was Descartes who said I think,
therefore I am.
I think the modern version isI'm on social media, therefore I
am.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
I think they have to have social media to prove that
they exist I don't disagree,don't disagree with that at all.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
I don't disagree, don't disagree with that at all,
I don't disagree.
So, rudy, what takes you toBrazil?
Speaker 1 (50:50):
I have two weddings here and we came to see my
wife's family.
Ah, we spent a little bit oftime down here.
How's your Portuguese?
My Portuguese is a little bitbetter.
I'm glad you said that.
Whatever you said.
Speaker 4 (51:13):
I'm sure Father Mario got that.
Speaker 5 (51:14):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, I don't know any Portuguese.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
I'm actually.
You guys should look at thistown.
I really do enjoy visitinghistoric sites and I'm in this
town called Oro Preto, whichmeans black gold, which is one
of the first areas where thePortuguese discovered the gold
(51:41):
mines that were so prominentduring the 18th century.
Wow, it was at such a peak thatalmost a third of all the gold
being mined during the 18thcentury was coming out of
Brazilian mines.
So the church I'll send youguys some pictures, but some of
these churches that they builthere have anywhere between 1,000
(52:06):
kilos or 500 kilograms of goldpainted just everywhere.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
It's just, it's impressive really so much beauty
, so much beauty.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah, the Baroque, I mean, and they still.
We went to mass today at one ofthese churches and the fact
that you can sit here in this350-year-old church just decked
out in gold, and you're sittinghere and it's like man where.
What did we do different?
Right, going back to we've beentalking about Jung and these
(52:41):
images, right, the statement youjust read about Martin.
Speaker 4 (52:46):
Buber, I'm not sure Buber.
Yeah, Martin Buber.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Buber.
But yeah, when we startfocusing only on ourselves, it's
like we almost lose ourimagination to think of grander
and more beautiful things, and Ithink it's pretty true in a lot
of our architecture too in theworld.
But anyways, that's maybe foranother show.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Rudy a question.
The service at the church youwent to, was it all Latin?
Was it Portuguese?
How did that play out?
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Well, it was Portuguese.
I've been to another mass also.
That's a Maronite, which isanother rite within the Catholic
Church.
There's 24 rites within theCatholic Church and that one is
in Aramaic and Portuguese, butthis one is Portuguese in the
vernacular that I went to todayInteresting.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
Hmm, interesting yeah .
Speaker 5 (53:41):
Well.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Father Mario, are you the show director next week?
I think I am.
Speaker 5 (53:47):
I think I'm going to cover next week.
A friend of mine sent me amessage that he didn't have any
water anymore no more water, soI sent him a get well soon card
get well soon, oh why wheneverhe speaks, you do not respond
Get well soon.
Speaker 4 (54:04):
Oh, why do I Whenever ?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
he speaks, you do not respond I should just look.
Speaker 5 (54:10):
Yes, he did, he walked right into it.
I really did.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
That's what you do, I really did.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
Get well.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Oh gosh, Get well soon.
Speaker 5 (54:19):
Yes, Anyway, you have been listening to the Show of
Faith here on 1070 KNTH and I'llbe your director next week.
So keep us in your prayers,folks, because you are always
going to be in ours.
Speaker 10 (54:36):
Find us at am1070theanswercom.
Download our apps.
Stream us 24-7.
Knth and K277DE-FM Houston.
I do, but I gotta think twice Before I give my
heart away.
And I know all the games youplay Because I play them too.
Oh, I need some time off fromthat emotion Time to pick my
part up off the floor.
Oh well, that love comes down,down with Abnimo son.
(00:27):
Well, it takes a storm there,baby, but I'm sure to keep the
door Cause I gotta have faith.
I gotta have faith Cause Igotta have faith, faith, faith.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I gotta have faith, faith, faith.
Welcome to A Show of Faithwhere a professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology and philosophy and
anything else of interest inreligion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, hey, we'dlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith athotmailcom.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening pretty
(01:00):
much anywhere.
Podcasts are heard.
Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo,retired pastor of St Cyril of
Alexandria, in the 10,000 blockof Westheimer.
That's the sound of one handclapping and that's the voice of
our professor David Capes,baptist minister and director of
academic programming for theLanier Theological Library.
Good to see you guys tonight.
Good to see you too.
(01:20):
Rudy Koga is our millennial.
He's a systems engineer, hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of St Thomas.
Howdy, howdy, hey, hey, rudy.
I am Rabbi Stuart Federo,retired rabbi of Congregation
Jarhashalom in the Clear Lakearea of Houston, texas.
(01:42):
Miranda is our board operatortonight and Miranda helps us
sound.
Great.
Nobody else is here, right?
Crystal?
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Crystal's here.
Yeah, you just hadn't seen her.
You haven't looked up from yourphone yet.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
No, there's nobody here, just kidding.
I can't see that side, that'smy excuse.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Welcome to a show of faith on AM 1070 Answer.
It's good to see you, good tobe with you guys tonight.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
You know, David, I don't think mine is on.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Are you on?
Speaker 5 (02:08):
I cannot hear myself in my own oh maybe Are you
plugged in.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Are you plugged in?
This is not on.
We have noises coming on.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
I mean I can hear myself in the ambient, but I
can't hear myself in the.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You can't hear yourself.
Can you hear us?
No, no, can't hear us either.
Okay, well, we'll get thatsorted out.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Oh wait, it almost went on Almost.
Now my right can't chat.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I'll bet it's the plug.
What's going on?
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Rudy's on with us.
All right, we've got to getthis going.
I am, are you better?
Here we go.
We'll try all the differentparts here, plugging things in.
All right, anyway, we'regetting this thing started here.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Thank you, does that work, does that work?
All right?
Very good, it's the plug.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
It's the plug, all right.
Anyway, good to see you, hey,rudy.
Are you down there, rudy?
Yes, I am All right.
Anyway, good to see you, hey,rudy.
Are you down there, Rudy?
Yes, sir, all right, keepgetting phone calls.
I'm not sure exactly why, butat any rate do you know, down
there in Guatemala, jordanPeterson, jordan Peterson.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Have you heard Jordan Peterson In Brazil right now,
and he's actually made it downhere too.
He's pretty world famous, Iwould think.
I mean it's pretty hard.
I would be surprised of aperson who's not heard of.
So let me ask you You've got tolive, you've got to really be
outside of the Internet, I think.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
All right, so let me ask you a question, then.
How would you portray jordanpeter religiously?
Peterson, that's what I said.
How would you?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
um, I would you know, I thought, I thought about this
and it was a good article.
Um, from public discourse.
I'm sure you guys will talkabout it later, but, uh, I would
describe him as, um, his wifejust recently converted to
catholicism, maybe like a yearago, I think his wife did okay I
(04:38):
think he yeah um, I think he'slike.
Carl Jung but that doesn't hatereligion.
I don't know if that makes anysense.
I think he's a psychologistright.
So I think he's, if you grabCarl Jung and actually gave him
(05:19):
a sense of how this sort ofJudeo-Christian tradition has
been so important for the worldand tries to understand it from
a sort of kind of.
Jungian perspective.
That's the sense that I getfrom reading.
I've read Maps of Meaning.
I've read 12 Rules for Life.
So I haven't read his new book.
It recently came out.
I'm not sure I'm too interestedin reading it.
If I'm going to be completelyhonest.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah, and this particular article did not.
Now it works yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Didn't actually win me over on it.
No, no To answer the rabbi.
Would you describe him as aChristian?
No, I do not.
Maybe he's trying.
I wouldn't go so far.
I don't think he knows aChristian.
(06:13):
I know, I know.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
A lot of stuff going on here.
Jordan Peterson's calling in, Ithink, is what it is.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, he wants to defend himself against the
Anschluss.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
You know, here's the thing I mean, he's one of these
folks that is, he's everywhere.
It seems like.
Do you see him everywhere, Iguess, father.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Yes, I do.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I mean you turn on YouTube.
He's on YouTube.
You look at the Internet, he'sin a variety of places.
He's got his own podcast, kindof things would you and would
you please just answer thatthing and just hang it up there
there we go bish, pish, tosh,yeah, all right, um, but but in
(06:58):
your he's, he's sort ofeverywhere it seems like right
and a lot of people don't quiteunderstand what he's doing or
what he's up to.
But he came on the scene anumber of years ago.
I can't remember exactly wherehe was, but he was up in one of
the In Canada.
In Canada, yeah, he's fromCanada, right, but he's a
(07:19):
psychologist.
He goes all over now, but he iskind of a world-class guy.
So here's the article thatwe're referencing in public
discourse.
It's called Jordan Peterson andthe Problem of God, and he's
written a new book called we whoWrestle with God.
I think is the title.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And Stuart does not like that title at all.
It's called CulturalAppropriation.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Yeah Well, we'll let you talk about that in just a
little bit, because we'll cometo that.
But essentially in that bookthe writer says that what we
don't have is somebody withPeterson trying to really get
into the stories of the Bibleand talk about the Bible so much
.
But the Bible becomes a sort ofa means to an end, that is, to
(08:09):
talk about other sort ofmythological, symbolic stories
that come from the better partof human culture, in other words
, not from God.
But all of these support hismain thesis, and here's what he
says.
The main thesis of JordanPeterson is in his book, the new
(08:29):
book, but also in a lot of hisother books, that is, that every
individual and this is reallyinteresting should aim at that
which is highest and organizelife and, by extension, society
accordingly.
That's kind of the big idea.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
And that is correct.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
That every individual think about that.
Every individual should aim atthe highest, assuming that we'll
all agree on what the highestis.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
And that's the point.
You don't.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
And that's the thing we don't right.
And sometimes his highest andmy highest might come into
conflict.
So what happens then in society?
Is that enough for us to thinkabout the good life, the good
society, the good world thatwe're all sort of looking
(09:20):
forward to?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
and we're thinking about.
As long as you have humanbeings, determine what that high
, high point, high thing is, thehighest good, the highest good
is going to be, then it willstray from the moral and ethical
it has to by it will, becausethe problem becomes that what if
(09:47):
you have which you will havehuman beings who say well, the
highest good is my good.
Or the highest good is murder.
That's right.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Getting rid of the riffraff yeah, yeah, so you know
it's too broad.
It's too broad, but I don'tdisagree from this perspective
(10:26):
that, given the absence of truefaith in God, you should aim for
the highest common good, thehighest common good for all
humanity.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And that's true, but again you're going to go back to
who determines.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
I'm in agreement, but notice what I said.
It is not the highest good.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Right.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Because the highest good.
You could interpret the highestgood as my individual good good
.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
You could do that with the common good too well
you can, but.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
but at the moment you say common, you have a basis of
argument that you are excludingsomeone, some.
So, for example, if, if, if wedon't take care of the earth,
that we're not taking care ofthe common good, if you're
saying, no, my nation, no, no,no, no, the common good is the
(11:10):
good of all humanity.
So I think you could agreephilosophically on what is good
and you could agree on common,meaning the entire humanity,
Right for everybody.
Yes, so I think at least youwould have a basis for arguing
what is the common good, basedon what it included and what it
(11:31):
excluded?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
It would provide a standard by which it's judged.
Some yeah Right.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
But you know, what's interesting to me is the moment
that you said.
That is when I the theetymology of the word worship,
because the word worship isexactly what that is everybody
worships something.
Why?
Because the word worship isfirst of all the suffix of that
(11:58):
word, is ship.
Ship is meaning the art orpractice of anything Penmanship,
craftsmanship, sportsmanship,anything.
Ship is the art or practice ofanything, and the WOR is a
shortened version of the wordworth, and so you have worth,
(12:18):
ship, so worth.
Ship is, by definition, seekingto put the things that are
worthwhile in their hierarchicalorder.
And the moment you say thatyou're seeking for the highest
worth, and that's what Petersonis saying.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
It's a naval destroyer, a warship.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
No, that's a W-A-R.
Yeah warship.
Sorry, it's just.
Like you know, I asked youearlier if you had ever heard of
the superb owl.
Yes, and have you have, youguys.
Rudy, have you heard of thesuperb owl?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I have not, it's right.
Speaker 5 (12:59):
Rudy, how can you not have heard of the superb owl?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
You used to be in the United States.
Yes, rudy, especially tonight,the Super Bowl, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
The Super Bowl.
The Super Bowl.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
You just change the letters around just a little bit
.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
But anyway, to me it just fits the definition of
worship.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
And I tell people, when you come to church and you
come to worship God, what areyou doing?
You're saying I am here to makesure that my relationship with
you is the highest thing in mylife.
Yeah, Period.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yep, yep and, in a sense, we all.
As you said, we all do that youall worship.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
Everybody worships something.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
What you talk about the most, what you think about
the most, is usually the thingthat you worship.
If you talk about money themost, if you talk about sports
the most, if you talk about it'sif you talk about sports the
most, whatever it is, it's funny, it's what you really think is
ultimately worth I had anexperience just yesterday.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
my I couldn't.
My lock on my condominiumwouldn't work, I couldn't lock
it, and so I had to leave mycondominium open until the
locksmith got there.
It was 24 hours so I had toleave, so I had to go to the
office and I had to leave mycondominium open.
So I took the two things thatwere worthwhile to me.
(14:27):
What did you take, charlie?
My dog and my computer.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
You had to decide what was worth.
Yeah, what was worth?
Speaker 5 (14:35):
I didn't care about anything else but Charlie, and
Charlie's my dog, charlie's yourdog.
What a cool dog.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yeah, charlie, yeah, well, we all have to decide that
right.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
That's right Everybody has.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
If you're in, California and your house is
burning down.
You've got to decide.
What am I going to get outbefore?
That house goes up.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
And right now, the most worthwhile, important thing
right now we have to do isCommercial, commercial break.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
We'll be right back.
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The answer Almost heaven, west Virginia, blue
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Okay, let's come back to Welcome back to A Show of
Faith.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
You know they actually sang this song tonight
at the game at the Suburb Owl.
Really, yes, why?
That's the Super Bowl?
It was part of an ad campaignthey were doing.
They had the whole stadiumsinging that song.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
Is it still going on?
Speaker 4 (18:11):
The Super, the Super Owl, the Super Owl.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
The Super Owl I can't say which the?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Super Owl, the Super Bowl is still going on.
Well it was.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
No.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I'm sure it'll be the 9-9-30.
Probably 9-9-30, yeah.
Hey, we're talking tonightabout Jordan Peterson and the
question, or the problem, of God.
And the problem of God that israised by this article we're
talking about and by his book isdoes in fact God exist or is
God just, in a sense, the resultof human consciousness?
(18:44):
Because, going back to yourword, was that a burp?
Speaker 5 (18:51):
No, it was a growl growl, grim Growl.
Speaker 4 (18:53):
It sounded like this Grimace.
Okay, well, so you're not happywith that question?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
No, because it's a silly question.
You know why?
Because it only considers humanconsciousness.
What did the existence of theworld, the existence of the
universe, the Big Bang in thebeginning, what went bang?
I mean, you have issues of, of,of existence that are beyond
(19:23):
the human.
That, to me, that argument isextremely anthropocentric.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Mario, didn't you know that God didn't exist until
the sixth day?
Fifth day didn't exist becausehumans didn't exist.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying,but that's what.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
I'm saying when do you get that?
You know the whole issue ofeven if you believe in the Big
Bang, even if you believe inmultiple universes, for God's
sake, you have to have somewherethat begins.
The universe is not eternal.
Nobody believes that it had.
Universe is not eternal.
Nobody believes that it had tocome from somewhere.
It had to come from somewhere,something.
That's why I love that littlebitty, that little thing.
(19:58):
In the beginning there wasnothing and nothing, happened to
nothing and nothing for noreason.
One day went bang and madelittle bits of everything.
Then became dinosaurs.
Makes perfect sense, you know.
Just stupid.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
He says mockingly.
He says mockingly he saysmocking me I'm mocking, but when
?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
we say the word god oh go ahead, yeah well, I was
just going to say it's importantyou, you got to understand.
And I've look, I've listened toa lot of uh, dr peterson's.
I listen to a lot of DrPeterson's lectures and I just
want to say, you know, he reallyis in my sense, in the sense
(20:40):
that I get a really smart guyokay, but he comes from the sort
of Jungian school right of CarlJung.
(21:21):
And so he studied a lot of hispsychology and I think it
reflected in a lot of the thingsthat he talks about, I agree.
Oh, no doubt, necessarily.
I think it's incomplete, but Istill think he's having a
positive impact.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Rudy will you're, you put your finger on culture.
You put your finger on it.
He is wonderful.
I love jordan peterson.
He is incomplete for something.
That's the whole point I likehim for something.
Yeah, but he is incomplete.
He's not bad, he's incomplete.
It's kind of like Protestants,you know you're not bad.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Just incomplete and many of us have no name.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
We're non-denominational.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
Non-denominational no name.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Father Mario, I'm surprised you make it out of
that room alive every Sunday.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Every week.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You have to say that.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, he says that, says all the time.
Well, again, this is not acritique of Jordan Peterson, no,
it isn't.
It's an appreciation for JordanPeterson, but just sort of
understanding where he's comingfrom, because I think he is
those things.
He has helped a lot of peopleunderstand faith in many ways,
(22:33):
but he's not doing so as anevangelist, he's not doing so as
a Christian or a Catholic or aProtestant or anything like that
.
But one of the things that thisarticle raises and his book
raises and Carl Jung basicallytalked about in one of his final
books, 1954, something likethat was is God an objective
(22:59):
reality or is God just somethingthat we in our consciousness
have described, we have needed,invented as necessary?
It brings us to our fullness ofour humanity in some ways.
I think he would agree with allof those things.
(23:20):
But the question is is there anobjective reality?
And if there's not, so what'sthe big deal?
Speaker 5 (23:26):
No, but see, that's where I find the argument just
silly because of the objectivenature of reality.
You know, where did theindependent of my consciousness,
where did the objective natureof reality come from?
(23:46):
All matter has to have anorigin, and so, even if you
don't have human consciousness,matter still exists.
And so where did it come fromit's contingent?
It's not, it does, it's not ofits own origin.
Matter cannot exist in and ofitself forever.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
So does it come from itself?
Speaker 5 (24:08):
so the question is so .
I don't disagree that there isa high amount of your own
perception of God which comesfrom your own psychological
needs.
There's no question about that.
But to question the objectivityof God based solely on human
(24:28):
consciousness, I think iswoefully short-sighted.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Stuart, I would agree .
I I don't, you know, I forgotwho originally said this and I
used to think it was cutesy andclever.
Now I'm not.
So now I'm not.
I think they're doing that toharass us.
But God made humans.
(24:57):
God made man in God's own imageand man, being a gentleman,
returned the favor.
Yeah, I used to think that wasclever and cute.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Now I'm not so sure, and now I am sure that we need
to go to a break.
This is 1070.
Give me a break.
I will 1070 KNDH and we'll beright back AM 1070, the answer.
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In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps
tonight.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
The aria.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM1070 Answer.
This is an email fromPresbyterian Mark.
I'll be in a week late.
The Big Bang was not anexplosion.
This is a common misconception.
The quote-unquote Big Bang,which was originally proposed by
a Catholic priest who was anastronomer, was a derisive term
applied to the theory by somepeople who believed in a static
(28:31):
universe.
The quote Big Bang was actuallya rapid expansion, not
explosion, of space, roughlyfrom the size of a proton to a
basketball in about a billionthof a trillionth of a trillionth
of a second and at large scalesthe observable universe is
uniform to about one part in10,000.
Grace and peace, presbyterianMark.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
But Presbyterian Mark .
What is the difference betweena rapid expansion?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
and an explosion.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
It's just whenever you're talking about stuff like
this, the only thing we have arehuman terms.
You can of course I don'tbelieve it was an explosion.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
And you know what?
I don't think it went bang.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
No.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Or even a big bang.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
It was no, but the whole point, it's an analogy.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, it's an analogy , that's a good description, and
you still have to ask thequestion where did the material
that exploded or that expanded,where did it come?
Speaker 5 (29:29):
from what did he call it?
A proton?
From the size of a proton to abasketball, yeah, but when you
have the moment you say size,you're already saying material.
And where did that materialcome from and what made that
material expanded?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What caused it?
What caused it and all of asudden, nothing happened?
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, nothing happened nothing.
To me.
That argument never ceases toamaze me, because there's only
two choices Either matter iseternal, which it is not, which
you couldn't tell by theexpanding universe, or it had to
have a start somewhere.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
It doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
In the beginning.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
God.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The end.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Yeah, and that's where Judaism begins, that's
where the Christian Bible beginstoo.
I mean, that's just part of ourtradition as well.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Right.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
But we stole it from him.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yes, you did.
You got with it and startedgiving weird interpretations.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
Here's the book that is entitled we who Wrestle With
God, and he has entitled thatbook in large part because of
his conversations over the yearswith Dennis Prager that have
been about the Bible and he'sgotten a lot of his Bible
training not from the NewTestament side of things,
(30:47):
because this particular book isabout Deuteronomy and it's about
Genesis and the Torah.
This particular book is aboutDeuteronomy and it's about
Genesis and the Torah the firstfive books of Moses, and then
it's also about the book of Job,so it's not a lot of New
Testament stuff in there.
There's more and more and more.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Well, that's because all the interesting stuff comes
from the Bible.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Well, that's right, it's enough.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
But you are concerned that he stole that, not stole
it, not stole it he borrowed itBecause everything is stolen in
Christianity.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
He is taking something that is explicitly
Jewish and referring explicitlyto the people of Israel, and
he's taking the definition ofthe term Israel and applying it
to those who are not Israel.
Okay, which means those whowrestle with God.
That's where the story, that'swhere the name comes from.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
In a sense, what I take it he's saying is that
everybody who thinks about Godand wrestles with the idea of
God is wrestling with God.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And I understand what he's saying but I wish he'd use
a different term.
I wish he would use somethingelse.
Yeah, you know, and you'reright, he probably got it from
Dennis Prager and that doesn'tmake it okay.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Well, it doesn't make it okay.
It just from your point of view, but I think he's trying to
appeal to a broader audiencethan just Christians or just
Protestants or people who comefrom a monotheistic heritage, in
a sense the book is about.
(32:25):
In a sense it is about God tosome degree, but what it means
to wrestle with God, and this iswhat he says.
To wrestle with God, he says,seems to signify a process of
continual self-discovery, ofcontinual striving to find the
(32:46):
highest principle.
It says we are seeking for thehighest principle and then we
organize our lives around thatrevelation, whatever that
revelation is, which seems morelike to me enlightenment than it
is revelation.
Right, because he's not usingthe word revelation the way that
Jews use it.
(33:06):
Or Christians, because inChristianity we think revelation
means the idea that God acts,that there is a God and that God
acts and speaks in order todisclose himself to humanity.
Right, revelation reveals, toreveal.
Right, so it's not just okay,as I find, as I find, as I find,
as I find this highest good andI discover it.
(33:27):
That's not revelation, becauseit started inside of me and such
.
So there's a distinction therethat I think is very, very, very
significant.
Here's just a few of the thingshe says in the book.
When he's talking about God,he's looking at the image of God
(33:47):
, the figure of God in Genesis 1.
God is presented as a processor a spirit guided by the aim of
Having all things exist andflourish, a spirit guided by
love.
In other words, in the story ofCain and Abel, god is shown to
be the spirit with whom we canenter into a covenant whenever
(34:11):
we make the necessary sacrificesto place what is highest
uppermost in our lives.
Genesis 12, when God callsAbraham a story, god is
represented as the spiritcalling Abraham to an adventure,
and the adventure is one ofself-discovery to develop
(34:33):
oneself personally, to developyourself and to become that
person that you couldpotentially be.
So there is a bit of adifferent way.
I don't think he got all ofthat from Prager.
I think some of that just cameout of his young psychology and
(34:56):
everything.
But you notice that he's tryingto take seriously, from his
point of view, these images ofGod God as a creator, god as one
who establishes rules andregulations and laws, and God as
the one who calls people into acovenant.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
The way you just now describe God in the book of
Genesis in those passages is nothow I hear Peterson describe
God in those passages.
He does not describe God inGenesis 1-1 as creator, and I
can't remember how you.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
Yeah, God is the process or spirit guidance.
No, no, but not creator.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
He's the process of creation, but he is not the
creator.
Right?
I forgot the other one you saidcan't enable, can't enable the
story.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
God is the process guided by the aim of sorry.
God is the process or thespirit by whom we can enter into
a covenant whenever we make thenecessary sacrifices that's not
how you just now described itlater in what you just said.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Now, okay, because the way in which he describes it
, I think, is foreign.
Or let me rephrase that it's anice interpretation of those
stories in the book of Genesis,but it's not what the book of
Genesis was saying.
It's merely his interpretationof it.
A spiritual process?
(36:26):
No, he's creator In thebeginning, god created.
He's not a process, he's acreator who calls the world into
being.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
Well, that's why the whole thing is to me a little
weird, because you're reducingGod to an uh, to a process
internal to consciousness, andgod is not in a process of
internal to consciousness.
God is the creator, he's not.
He can't be reduced to aninternal event inside a human
skull yes, right, right, rightnow now where we, where we
(37:02):
actually apprehend God and thinkof God.
We think of God with inside ourheads our brains right, it's
like we think of anything andeverything else, but we cannot
reduce him to that.
We can't reduce him to that.
Yeah, rudy, what do you got onthis?
Speaker 1 (37:17):
I think like, fundamentally, we're missing
this sort of entire concept ofgrace.
Right, that it's not just thisthing, like this kind of myth,
that exists out there.
That's just for us to kind ofself-improve over these
(37:37):
experiences that I've had, Imean as a Christian, and of
course, to Jews too.
This is the Word of God, right,as he intended it right.
It is a supernatural truth thatexists irrelevant of us,
without us.
You know, whether we exist ornot, whether the world exists or
(37:57):
not, god isn't a thing.
God isn't necessarily a spiritor this process.
He is I am.
I mean, when he speaks to Mosesand he says I am, that is right
, it's not.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
He is the very essence of all.
And I think when you don'tattack well, not say attack, but
when you don't look at theBible in that perspective, right
, and you're kind of just leftwith, and I keep kind of
reminding myself this and I knowwe have to go to a break.
But I mean, to me Peterson isjust he really refrains from
(38:40):
calling himself a Christian orto sort of acknowledging that
supernatural truth he's.
If you were to kind of stripall that out and just look at
these stories let's say just thestories what sort of moral
basis can be extracted from it?
(39:01):
Like, what sort of exegesis canyou do out of this thing?
And that's what he's doing,right, I mean, he pulls positive
things, but he's missing thebasis, that's why I call him
incomplete.
Speaker 5 (39:12):
It's not.
It's a very good thing.
It's a beginning stage.
It can be an open door.
It's a step in the rightdirection, but it's not complete
.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
One of the things this book does is he looks at
things like the Lion King.
He looks at the Lord of theRings trilogy, other things like
that as well.
He looks at Harry Potter.
He looks at a lot of otherthings.
It's great literature,important literature that
contains many of the samefeatures of good and evil and
(39:44):
struggle and wrestling againstthese kind of things.
He looks at all of those and hecomes through and at the very
end it seems like all fiction iscreated equal.
At that point.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Right, including the Bible.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Well, the Bible?
Yeah, it could be at thatparticular point.
But I think he would demur fromcalling it a fiction because I
don't think he would want to sayhe's using the religious
studies terminology of myth.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, the embodiment of truth in a story, in a story.
Speaker 4 (40:17):
Yeah, we've got to go to break.
Speaker 5 (40:18):
This is 1070 KNTH the Answer and we will answer your
questions when we come back.
Speaker 10 (40:25):
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The call center and EasyTagstores are closed on Sundays,
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Hey, it's Andy Hoosier with the Voice of Reason
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You know your favoriteconservative talk radio show
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(42:58):
conservatism on the radio.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
It's the Voice of Reason and it's all right here.
Did it really, when it came out, bothered me.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
Did it really.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yes, it did.
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 1070, the Answer.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
All right, here's the question of the hour.
Here's the question If therewere no humans, would there be a
God?
Would God exist?
Oh jeez.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I mean I In your opinion.
That's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
I just think that's such a stupid question.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Well, it's.
No, okay, if you're saying butyou understand that there are a
lot of people that think thatthe idea of God is sort of a so
then the question is what if youhad no humans?
Speaker 5 (43:41):
would reality exist?
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Say that last part again.
Speaker 5 (43:47):
If there were no humans to be conscious of it,
would reality exist?
And the answer is yes.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Does a tree?
When a tree falls in a forest,does it make a sound?
Speaker 5 (43:58):
So if reality exists and matter is contingent, matter
cannot self-create.
Therefore there is a God.
This whole argument is based onthe existence of the human
being being the sole evidencefor the creation of God.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Right.
So our writer of this articlesays all of this depends on
whether God exists in say orwhether his existence is only in
anima hominis.
Which means, which meansbasically in the soul of man.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
But that's why, even with that writer, god cannot
exist solely in the soul of man,because reality exists in the
soul of man, because realityexists in the dependency of man.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
Well, I mean, he's obviously critiquing the whole
project that he's on there.
So there's this idea intheology called the aseity of
God.
Aseity of God.
The aseity of God means thatGod needs nothing outside of
himself to be himself.
That's right.
He needs nothing.
(45:06):
He doesn't need the universe.
The universe has not made any.
The existence of the universeand all human beings and all the
worship that is given doesn'tmake him any more God than he
was before.
He was God already and he needsnothing.
Human beings, on the other hand, we need everything outside of
(45:29):
us to make us who we are.
We need air, we need water, weneed food, we need gravity, we
need strong and weak forces.
You know, we need all thatstuff in order for us to be
human beings and to even bealive.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Let me ask you something.
Yes, the term God is a God, adoctor has to have patience.
That's a bad example.
(46:14):
I can't think of an example offthe top of my head.
But in order for God to be God,doesn't God have to have those
who acknowledge that God is God?
Speaker 5 (46:26):
if God is a title, he would still be who he is
independently if he didn't havethat title.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Exactly that I would agree with.
But in the way the question isstated it seems unclear.
Speaker 5 (46:42):
That's why you know, god is not a thing.
He is being itself, he is to be.
God's being is to be, to be ornot to be, no, just to be.
To be that's God's being is tobe.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
Is being, yeah, being , the ground of being, yeah,
yeah, the basic, I mean beforeexistence, prior to existence,
any of those kind of things.
So the whole project that he'son about here is a very
interesting project and Icommend him for it, but I don't
think he goes far enough.
I don't think he's able to.
From where he stands today, asa psychologist, as a podcaster,
(47:22):
as an influencer, as a writerand as a YouTube host.
He doesn't really want, nordoes he have the opportunity to
be able to dwell down, get downon some of these more
significant aspects oftheological study and training,
(47:42):
but he is going to interpret allthese biblical ideas and
theological ideas through thelens of his Jungian psychology.
Is that a good thing, rudy, oris that a bad thing, you think?
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I think what he's doing, and maybe his role, is a
good thing, because I think hemakes the Bible let's say the
entirety of it, I'm going to usethe word digestible to a lot of
people who maybe before had noinkling or appetite for it.
(48:21):
So I think he's piquing thecuriosity of a lot of people,
yeah, and?
And when people start goinginto that, then you're going to
start reading other authors,authors that that dig deeper
into the actual theology, intothe philosophy.
That isn't just into the actualtheology, into the philosophy.
(48:43):
That isn't just sort of apsychology right.
What I'm saying is he's goingto leave you wanting more.
Speaker 5 (48:53):
He's made religion intellectually respectable.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
I agree.
Speaker 5 (48:59):
Not that he wasn't before in terms of religious
people, but to the scientism oftoday.
He has made religion in ascientism environment.
Scientism is basicallymaterialism, but people in the
past were laughing at people offaith and now he has muted that
(49:22):
laughter because he has givenpsychological respectability to
the whole notion of the possibleexistence of God and the
benefits of biblical religion.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
And I think that also reflects something that Dennis
Prager did with his RationalBible series of commentaries on
the Bible the Rational Bible.
Speaker 4 (49:52):
One of the things that Buber commented on.
Martin Buber, who is a Jewishphilosopher, in the book says
that human beings in the 20thcentury have become incapable of
apprehending a reality that isindependent of themselves.
In other words, if there is areality beyond ourselves, we're
not able to understand itwithout interjecting ourselves
into it.
(50:12):
And so, to be able to thinkabout these greatest goods, to
be able to think about God, weinject ourselves into those
realities and we make them allabout us in a way.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
I believe it was Descartes who said I think,
therefore I am.
I think the modern version isI'm on social media, therefore I
am.
Speaker 5 (50:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
I think they have to have social media to prove that
they exist I don't disagree,don't disagree with that at all.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
I don't disagree, don't disagree with that at all,
I don't disagree.
So, rudy, what takes you toBrazil?
Speaker 1 (50:50):
I have two weddings here and we came to see my
wife's family.
Ah, we spent a little bit oftime down here.
How's your Portuguese?
My Portuguese is a little bitbetter.
I'm glad you said that.
Whatever you said.
Speaker 4 (51:13):
I'm sure Father Mario got that.
Speaker 5 (51:14):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, I don't know any Portuguese.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
I'm actually.
You guys should look at thistown.
I really do enjoy visitinghistoric sites and I'm in this
town called Oro Preto, whichmeans black gold, which is one
of the first areas where thePortuguese discovered the gold
(51:41):
mines that were so prominentduring the 18th century.
Wow, it was at such a peak thatalmost a third of all the gold
being mined during the 18thcentury was coming out of
Brazilian mines.
So the church I'll send youguys some pictures, but some of
these churches that they builthere have anywhere between 1,000
(52:06):
kilos or 500 kilograms of goldpainted just everywhere.
Speaker 4 (52:12):
It's just, it's impressive really so much beauty
, so much beauty.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah, the Baroque, I mean, and they still.
We went to mass today at one ofthese churches and the fact
that you can sit here in this350-year-old church just decked
out in gold, and you're sittinghere and it's like man where.
What did we do different?
Right, going back to we've beentalking about Jung and these
(52:41):
images, right, the statement youjust read about Martin.
Speaker 4 (52:46):
Buber, I'm not sure Buber.
Yeah, Martin Buber.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Buber.
But yeah, when we startfocusing only on ourselves, it's
like we almost lose ourimagination to think of grander
and more beautiful things, and Ithink it's pretty true in a lot
of our architecture too in theworld.
But anyways, that's maybe foranother show.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Rudy a question.
The service at the church youwent to, was it all Latin?
Was it Portuguese?
How did that play out?
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Well, it was Portuguese.
I've been to another mass also.
That's a Maronite, which isanother rite within the Catholic
Church.
There's 24 rites within theCatholic Church and that one is
in Aramaic and Portuguese, butthis one is Portuguese in the
vernacular that I went to todayInteresting.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
Hmm, interesting yeah .
Speaker 5 (53:41):
Well.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
Father Mario, are you the show director next week?
I think I am.
Speaker 5 (53:47):
I think I'm going to cover next week.
A friend of mine sent me amessage that he didn't have any
water anymore no more water, soI sent him a get well soon card
get well soon, oh why wheneverhe speaks, you do not respond
Get well soon.
Speaker 4 (54:04):
Oh, why do I Whenever ?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
he speaks, you do not respond I should just look.
Speaker 5 (54:10):
Yes, he did, he walked right into it.
I really did.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
That's what you do, I really did.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
Get well.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Oh gosh, Get well soon.
Speaker 5 (54:19):
Yes, Anyway, you have been listening to the Show of
Faith here on 1070 KNTH and I'llbe your director next week.
So keep us in your prayers,folks, because you are always
going to be in ours.
Speaker 10 (54:36):
Find us at am1070theanswercom.
Download our apps.
Stream us 24-7.
Knth and K277DE-FM Houston.
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