July 2, 2025 • 54 mins
What makes an object sacred? Is it divine designation, human recognition, or something else entirely? Our interfaith panel dives deep into the fascinating world of sacred objects and their role in connecting us to the transcendent.
Father Mario offers a compelling metaphor: at creation, all matter possessed a mirror-like quality designed to reflect divine light. Though this reflective potential was diminished through human sin, the incarnation of Christ began the restoration process, allowing physical objects to once again mediate divine presence. This theology explains why Catholics value sacred objects so highly—from Eucharistic elements to blessed crucifixes, these items serve as tangible connections to spiritual realities.
The conversation takes unexpected turns as panel members share personally meaningful sacred objects. David speaks movingly about his son's ashes, while Father Mario mentions his late father's bathrobe—simple everyday items transformed into profound connections with loved ones who have passed on. As Rabbi notes, "holy" simply means "set apart"—different and special from ordinary things.
Perhaps most fascinating is the scientific dimension. Recent neuroscience research reveals that when people encounter objects they consider sacred, specific brain regions activate—particularly areas associated with emotional significance and memory. This suggests humans may be biologically wired to experience transcendence through physical things.
Despite growing secularism, the panel observes hopeful signs of religious revival—increasing baptisms, conversions, and Bible sales indicate that purely materialistic worldviews have failed to satisfy the human hunger for meaning. Even those without religious faith still treat certain objects as sacred, suggesting our need for physical reminders of spiritual connections is universal and deeply human.
Join us as we explore this profound paradox: the very objects meant to unite believers with the divine often become the things that create our deepest divisions. What can we learn from the way we all—religious or not—honor certain objects as special and set apart?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, I guess it would be nice If I could touch
your body.
I know, not everybody has got abody like you, but I gotta
think twice Before I give myheart away.
And I know all the games youplay Because I play them too.
Oh, but I need some time offFrom that emotion, time to pick
(00:29):
my part up off the floor.
Oh well, that love comes downwith a devotion.
Well, it takes a storm, baby,but I'm sure I'll shoot the door
, cause I gotta have faith.
I gotta have faith Cause Igotta have faith.
(00:55):
I don't think we're on.
I can't hear it.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I can't no Nothing on my earphones.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
You can't hear through your earphones.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
No, which I'm fine.
I mean, the only thing I don'tneed is to.
I guess I don't need to listento Rudy or David.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I mean, what does he know?
He's on a master's degree.
Wow, oh no.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I can hear Rudy.
Yeah, I can hear Rudy.
Okay, I can't hear myself.
That's it.
That's it, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Roger, are you in studio?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I'm here, mario's here.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
Live Mario made it Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Welcome back.
I got back Saturday.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yesterday, yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm still a little bit tipsy.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
We can't hear the rabbi.
I don't know, David.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, we can't.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yeah, I'm not hearing Stuart much All right Rabbi,
just bring in the whole group.
Hello.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Every time I know.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, that's mine.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
That's yours, we're trying to sort this out.
Folks, sorry about this.
Got some challenges technicalchallenges here tonight
technical challenges we workwith can you guys hear me?
(02:36):
Yeah, we can hear you now,rabbi.
In fact, you're way too loud,that's even better.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, I know you.
You would say that not speakingat all would be the best.
All right, so this is the Showof Faith on AM1070, the Answer
where minister, priest,professor, professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology, philosophy, morality
and ethics and anything else ofinterest in religion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
(03:17):
regarding what we say, we wouldlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
That's ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
That's it.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening, pretty
much everywhere podcasts areheard.
Our priest is Father MarioArroyo, retired pastor of St
(03:38):
Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000block of Westheimer.
Hello, Our professor is davidcapes, protestant minister,
director of academic programmingfor the linear theological
library great to be with youguys tonight rudy congas, our
millennial systems engineer andmaster's degree in theology from
the university of saint thomashowdy, howdy I am rabbi stewart
(03:59):
federo, retired rabbi ofcongregation the clear lake area
of houston, texas.
Crystal yeah, I'm so bad withnames.
Crystal is our board operatortonight.
Thank you, crystal, you make ussound wonderful thank you,
crystal she didn't have herearphones on.
(04:20):
So he said thank you, crystal.
Father mario, tell us aboutyour trip.
Did you have fun?
She didn't have her earphoneson.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
so he said thank you, Chris.
Oh, no problem.
Yes, right, Father Mario, tellus about your trip.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Did you have fun?
Yeah, I did, you know.
No, by the way, for those ofyou who are wondering what trip
I went to Spain and Portugal andit was very good, but no two
weeks, whenever you're okay,Everything's going to go well.
But I would say 80% went verywell, good, very well.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
That's pretty good yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
My favorite was Portugal.
I loved Portugal.
It's wonderful.
I had a wonderful time there.
I'd never been there.
I found it just easy tounderstand a little bit.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Really Between Portuguese and Spanish.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Portuguese and Spanish are pretty good.
You may speak slow enough, andit was really very, very good.
And I went to Fatima, theArlenia, fatima.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Did you really yeah Wow?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And that was very interesting.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Now for those who don't know what Fatima is what
is Fatima?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Fatima is an apparition of the Blessed Mother
that occurred in the late 19thcentury, I think.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Rudy is that correct.
I want to say early.
Wasn't it 1920, when the it wasalready 20th century?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I don't remember, but it was very, very good.
I enjoyed it very much sowelcome back, thank you.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Rudy, you are a show director.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I am and it's kind of it's kind of curious that, rudy
, you are a show director, I am,and it's kind of curious that
Meyer kind of brings this.
It's kind of on my list toogoing to Panama as Catholics.
It's a pretty sort of I mean,of course you're not obligated
(06:24):
to go, or even really kind ofit's just a site of great
devotion, right.
So what's the topic Based onour last conversation, I wanted
to talk today about and, david,I think you kind of touched on
(06:45):
it too on what you mentionedearlier in our chat I wanted to
talk about objects, right, andthe effect that these objects,
and specifically sacred objects,have in physical things, our
(07:07):
universe, materiality, creation.
Now, I wanted to start by kindof giving a couple things that
of course I read the Bible andI'm not a biblical scholar by
any means, that I don't pretendto be I read it, I read it every
day and and um, there's alwaysI don't know, I mean of course,
(07:30):
for you guys, but there's alwayssome passages that just kind of
they kind of like just liverent free in my brain like all
the time and, and I kind of gothrough phases, um, um, for
example, the, the, the verse of,of, when jesus, like, condemns
this, this fig tree, uh, thatone, this man, lived red tree in
(07:53):
my brain for for a while.
But, um, the, the one that hasbeen most in my brain and led me
really to this, to choosingthis, this, uh, this topic
stemmed from, from the readingin exodus, um, uh, 25, where god
, um, he gives moses precise andspecific, um sort of
(08:18):
specifications for the ark ofthe covenant, right, I mean, and
it's quite a bit of the chapter, right, it's like 13, 14 verses
, right, and it's the specificwood and it's like two and a
half cubits long, a cube and ahalf wide, you know, and it's
just very intricate and very,very specific dimensions.
(08:44):
The material of gold it'ssupposed to be made of gold,
molding right and around it, andthere's just this entire detail
of it.
And then it got me to thinkingtoo, the effect that the Ark had
in other passages, right, andI'm reminded of Samuel,
specifically, of Samuelspecifically, and most I don't
(09:08):
know if I'm saying it thePhilistines, right, it's when
the Philistines they take theArk of the Covenant and there's
just a huge death toll thatamounts within the Philistine
sort of community, and they'reabsolutely terrified until they
(09:29):
return the Ark back to Israel.
And so that got me thinking.
There's a lot of objects,literal objects, right, or
material things that have this.
I don't want to say just divineaura, this, I don't want to say
just divine aura.
(09:50):
Take the staff of Moses rightand and within the the newer
testaments, I thought about thegarment, right, jesus, this
garment, when, when there's thiswoman that has the hemorrhage
and she's trying to find somesort of solution to this and she
spends all her money and allher money I think it's Mark Mark
(10:10):
, chapter five and she goes andjust touches Jesus' garment and
Jesus feels that there's thispower.
That's and he says it,something's drained out of me,
right, and so I wanted to talkabout the importance that this
has had, because, for, for a lotof, for a lot of history, um,
(10:35):
art, god was always depictingthings in a particular way.
Right, god presented himself ina particular way to humanity,
right, and of course, jesus cameand sort of put everything sort
of on its heels, right, I mean,when John says in the beginning
(11:01):
was the Word, and the Word waswith God and the Word was God.
(11:31):
This kind of birth of God intothe world changes the way we see
these types of—I'm just goingto use the form of Jesus Christ
to just objects.
Right, I mean, as much as he isman, he's also God, at least to
our understanding as Christians.
Now, before that, god usesmultiple objects to perform
miracles, right of his divinesort of will, of his presence.
I'm reminded of the burningbush and even today and I kind
(11:57):
of want to sort of break it downa little bit further, right,
because I think within each ofour religions and David you kind
of have I'd like to talk alittle bit about some of the
differences too, because I thinkas Catholics, we put maybe a
very high value on these typesof objects, and there's some
(12:21):
cultural things that we all sortof agree on that are important
that we value.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
Rudy, I think what I would probably disagree with the
idea that they're called divineobjects.
I think I would prefer to callthem just simply sacred objects
that we accord to them, weassign to them some kind of
sacredness.
(12:48):
And yeah, it could begin withGod.
It could begin with Goddescribing the tabernacle, the
Ark of the Covenant and itsconstruction, the ephod or the
garment worn by the high priest,all of that.
But I wouldn't say that theseobjects are divine.
What I would prefer to say isthat we regard them in some
(13:10):
sense as sacred and they carryupon them some sense of
transcendent quality that isdistinct from a bowl that you
would find in the kitchen, let'ssay a bowl that you would find
in the kitchen, let's say a bowlthat you would have in the
temple.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Yeah, now I think it's an important distinction to
make, right, because we, asCatholics, live this every
Sunday with the Eucharist andthe transubstantiation.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
So before that moment , yeah, I would say that the
Eucharist and I'm glad youmentioned that, because the
Eucharist and this is where Iwould I don't know how David
would come down on this, but forCatholics, the Eucharist is a
divine object- but would youclassify it the same way you
(14:04):
would classify a cross aroundyour neck?
No, not at all.
That's the distinction.
Not at all.
I mean, when you are consumingthe bread or the wine which is
the Eucharist, it's a differentquality.
You're talking about the verybody and blood of the Lord.
30 seconds, that's where thingsvery much change.
(14:27):
But let's go to a break andwe'll continue this, because
that's a fascinating transitionbetween that.
So this is KMTH 1070.
You're listening to the Show ofFaith here.
Speaker 9 (14:57):
And we will be right back.
We will be right back.
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Speaker 1 (17:02):
You're an angel to me , johnny Angel.
How I love him, how I tinglewhen he passes by.
Every time he says hello, myheart begins to fly, johnny
(17:28):
Angel.
My heart begins to fly, johnnyAngel, how I want him.
He's got something that I can'tresist, but he doesn't even
know that I exist.
I'm in heaven.
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(17:48):
I dream of him and me and howit's gonna be.
All the fellas call me up for adate, but I just sit and wait.
I'd rather concentrate onJohnny Angel, cause I love him
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(18:13):
see how lovely heaven will be.
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And together we will see how lovely heaven will be
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 1070 Answer.
And for those of you who wehope are listening to us, we
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(18:42):
Your emailed-in questions Go toashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom.
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Put a show of faith in thesubject line and email us your
questions and if we like yourquestions, we'll answer them on
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Speaker 5 (19:03):
What if we don't like them?
Then we'll answer them on theair.
Well, we don't like them.
What if we don't like them?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, then we'll ignore them, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Or we might answer them anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
We will not ignore them.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Okay, fine, but we haven't done this in a long time
.
We're not on the air for twohours, we're only on the air for
one hour.
How's that a diplomatic way?
And we stopped taking phonecalls, but we missed the
(19:33):
interplay, we missed talkingwith people, so I don't yes,
there are parts of me that alsodoes not.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, well, david, you know, david, we we can say, hey
, we miss you, we miss you.
I really don't.
A lot of people we used to callmen.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh no, they used to use us to get to our audiences.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, yeah so anyway, let's go back to the subject.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Right so.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Rudy, where do you want to go with this?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Rabbi.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
So we're talking about objects and I think we
came to a very sort ofinteresting distinction that
kind of separates how we see andexperience and sort of engage
with the transcendent as far asus Catholics understand it now,
(20:21):
um, I don't think, I don't knowif within judaism now, um, I
mean, would you go as far as tocall the ark of the covenant a
divine?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I mean, it's considered a sacred thing sacred
, the word I would use rightthis is what it was understood
at, but it wasn't God.
But the word I would use wouldbe holy or sacred, set apart.
What does holy mean?
Holy means set apart, different, distinct, special, and there
(20:53):
might be a whole bunch ofdifferent boxes that are inlaid
with gold and whatever, but it'snot the Ark.
The Ark is separate, special,different from all the other
boxes with gold laid onto it.
You know, a crucifix is plentyof gold jewelry, but a crucifix
or a cross is different than anyother piece of jewelry.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's sacred set apart .
Sacred art.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Exactly, it's holy, set apart, different, distinct.
And to me, rudy, what was mostinteresting about what you wrote
to us setting up our discussionfor tonight is that human
beings need their physicalreminders of their spiritual
relationships.
Yeah, you know, and it doesn'tmatter if it's a cross, crucifix
(21:41):
high around the neck, yarmulkeon top of the head or WWJD
bracelet.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
We need our reminders one of the things that I think
is important, because when Rudybrought this up, I thought it
was very good.
Yeah, me too, because we'retalking about what we call
Catholicism has all kinds ofsacred stuff.
I mean, if you think about it,for example, how do we we as
(22:12):
Catholics we as Catholicsunderstand our communication
with God?
I just spoke today about thewhole idea that when you
communicate, you need a personto answer back.
So how do we hear from God?
We can talk to God, but how doyou hear from God?
Now, I don't know if this is thesame.
(22:34):
What I'm going to say is thesame thing as the Baptist or the
Protestant traditions, as faras they exist.
But, for example, for us, whenyou talk about the sacraments,
the sacraments, we have sevensacraments, and the seven
sacraments are each one of themhave what's called matter and
(22:57):
form?
Are each one of them havewhat's called matter and form?
Okay, so, for example, what isthe matter and the form of
baptism?
Well, the matter of baptism iswater, but the form is I baptize
you in the name of the Father,son and the Holy Spirit, amen,
okay, so my form.
Form is the words, the wordsthat you speak, yeah, the words
(23:18):
that you speak, yeah, the wordsthat you speak.
So, for example, in theSacrament of Reconciliation, the
matter is the imposition ofhands, and then the form is I
absolve you from all of yoursins.
In the Eucharist, the matter isthe bread and the wine and the
(23:43):
form is Jesusesus's words ofinstitution.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So for you, the form isn't, whether or not it's full
submersion or sprinkle orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
No, it's the actual words when I hear the word form
I think how it's done.
No, the form is the word okay,okay, okay.
And so, for example, in inanointing of the sick, uh, is
the oil you will use, oil toanoint, you know?
And and in confirmation, oil,sacred chrism is a different
kinds of, there's differentkinds of oils and oils are used.
So for us it's sacred stuff,but I I just want to and I'll
(24:15):
say this very quickly because Iknow we're coming up to a break
what I see is that at thebeginning of creation here's how
I understand this is just alittle parable.
I made up Not parable a littleimage I made up At the beginning
of creation.
I believe almost everything inthe world had a mirror surface.
(24:37):
Imagine that everything had amirror surface.
What does a mirror do?
A mirror reflects light.
Okay, when human beingscommitted the original sin which
that's what it's saying what isthe back of a mirror?
Look like?
The back of a mirror is black.
(24:58):
You don't get it.
Imagine the whole of creation,instead of reflecting God's
light, turned upside down, andso the whole of creation no
longer reflected light.
When Jesus becomes human, bytaking on matter, human matter,
(25:22):
he begins the turning around ofmatter to be reflective of God.
And so, all of a sudden, nowyou have holy objects.
Why holy objects or sacredobjects?
Because since, for us, asCatholics or Christians, since
the incarnation, all of matternow has the possibility of being
(25:47):
reflective of light, and we'llcontinue this brilliant example
when we come back after thebreak.
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Welcome back to the show of faith.
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Yes, welcome back to the show of faith.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I'll just finish with you know I was using the image
of the mirror Mirror right.
That reality has the potentialof reflecting the sacred.
So whenever, see we asCatholics, we got all kinds of
holy stuff, you know we got.
We got holy bread, we got holywine, we got holy statues bread,
(29:22):
we got holy wine, we got holystatues.
We got a holy objects.
We even have holy smoke.
Okay, with the insects, and sofor us, reality is has the
potential to reflect the holyand, and that is sacred objects.
Of course it's a hierarchy ofsacred objects.
The most sacred object is, ofcourse, when the object itself
(29:46):
becomes the presence of Godhimself in the Eucharist.
Okay, but from down, from there, you have the sacramental
matter, like baptism has waterand the holy oils and things
like that, and then you havewhat's called the sacramentals,
which is whenever I blessanything, you know you're
(30:09):
elevating it to reflect.
I basically understand that I'mtaking, say, a crucifix.
A crucifix is just metal theycan make them off a factory.
But when a person comes to meand I bless a crucifix, what I
understand I'm doing is that I'mturning that object over and so
(30:31):
that the mirror surface of thatobject, the potential that that
object had to be reflective ofthe divine, becomes active, so
that for that person especially,and to some degree in and of
itself, that objects becomes nowreflective of the actual light
of christ.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
And see I, I would argue, and they will not agree
with me is that the secularcommunity.
They may not have objects thatreflect the divine, but they
have sacred and holy things tothem.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That's what's called.
That's what's called civilreligion exactly civil, but they
will.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
They will treat objects.
Yeah, like the religious willtreat religious objects and set
apart special secular.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
The secular life has has liturgies.
You know, for example, thechanging of the guard.
Oh, the two new in englandright.
Or they have liturgical music.
You know hail to the chief.
You know, whatever we have theamerican national anthem?
Absolutely, we have, you knowthat's.
That's a whole area of studycalled civil religion and how
(31:41):
civil life becomes very muchlike religious life.
Yes, so anyway, rudy, that'sall yeah let me.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Go ahead, David.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Well, let me just suggest First of all, I like the
analogy that you use about themirror and all of matter being
able to be turned.
I see that as a work of God.
I see that as something thatreally is beyond us as human
beings.
We can work with God, religiousor not.
(32:34):
that sacramentalizes a varietyof things, and to regard certain
items, certain things as havingsacredness that have nothing to
do with religion but have allto do with things that are just
greater than we are, and I thinkabout the graveside of someone
who has passed away, and I thinkabout the graves itself, and I
(32:57):
think about the headstone, and Ithink about people going to
those spots, laying flowers,absolutely, and the place.
They may have no religion atall, but but nevertheless, that
little bit of real estate wheretheir beloved mother or
grandmother or father are buriedis a very special, special
(33:19):
place for them.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
When things happen there, you know, david, anything
like, for example, in my, in myroom, in my house, I have an
old bathrobe that I cannot throwaway, and the reason is that
that was the bathrobe that myfather was wearing throughout
his cancer and he died in that,and so that is a sacred object,
(33:44):
exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Yeah, and you regard that not like you would the
Eucharist or something else,right, but still it occupies a
very special place for you, andthat's the steward's definition
of what holiness is being madespecial, set apart, and I think
that's just part of it.
There's an old expressioncalled there's no honor, there's
(34:10):
honor among thieves.
You know, honor meansessentially, I give weight to
something.
That thing has weight in mylife, it has significance.
So, regardless of a person'smorals or lack of morals, or
religiosity or lack ofreligiosity, we each reach for
and have things that we honorand that we regard as distinct
(34:36):
from everything else around it,whether it's a bathrobe or my
son's ashes.
Daniel's ashes are in my bedroomand that, to me, is a very
special thing, and from time totime I'll put my hand on it,
I'll talk to my son, I'll talkto God, and this represents for
(35:02):
me the last remaining physicalevidence of my son's life, right
, yeah, and when you have that,it's not just a thing.
It's not just a thing, it'ssomething.
I have no clue what will happenwith it once I'm left this
(35:23):
earth, but it's still for me.
I regard it as deeply emotional, sacred, spiritual.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Well, I mean, think about wedding rings.
You know, rudy, when you lookat your hand and in your wife's
hand and you see that weddingring, and you see, yeah, so
that's a sacred object.
It, they're, they're, they'reobjects that bring you in touch
with the transcendent.
They're objects that are tied,that give you a sense of what is
(35:54):
beyond.
That's what I what I callsacramental.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
But you notice how they all have functions.
Well, they are Not necessarilythe secular objects, like the
robe, it had a function keepingwarm or whatever.
But the religious items have afunction.
Okay, the water I don't know,this is a Christian theological
(36:22):
statement, I guess I'm probablymisstating, but it cleanses the
soul.
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, the yarmulke okay, is aphysical reminder.
There's a reason for it.
There's a Deuteronomy 6 objectwe put on a door post.
It's a physical reminder of ourspiritual relationship, a
(36:42):
reminder to keep thecommandments.
It has explicit function.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
You know, I see this as tremendously connected to the
etymology of the word religion,because remember the word
religion, re.
Anytime you put re in front ofanything, it means do it again,
right, okay.
Ligion is a form of the wordreligion read.
Anytime you put re in front ofanything, it means do it again,
right, okay.
Ligion is a form of the wordligada, which means to connect
like ligament.
Ligament, that's right.
(37:06):
So, really, god is to reconnect, and so there are objects that
literally reconnect you right tosome kind of transcendent
experience that I would argue insome way is tied to the divine.
I would say, for example, myfather's robe is a tie that I
(37:29):
have to his memory, but he isalready in God.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And parents represent God to children.
Yes, so it's even a greaterconnection to children.
Yes, so it's even a greaterconnection to God.
That's right.
Yeah, coming to your father.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Rudy, your turn.
This is your subject.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
Yeah, well, I wanted to talk a little bit about some
of the neuroscience of sacredobjects, because I think it's
quite important.
There's an important researchthat was done by Dr Andrew
Newberg out of the ThomasJefferson University, and this
guy, he spent decades studyingthe brains of people and he
(38:11):
would do scans on them as theywould engage in religious
practices.
He published this book calledhow God Changes your Brain.
It's pretty interesting, but hewrites this and this is kind of
a quick excerpt.
But when subjects view objectsthey consider sacred whether a
(38:34):
cross or a scroll or prayerbeads, whether a cross or a
scroll or prayer beads we seeactivation in the limbic system,
particularly the amygdala andthe hippocampus, which are
predominantly areas associatedwith emotional significance and
memory.
Now simultaneously, theposterior superior parietal lobe
(38:58):
, and I know that's a lot, butwhat this does is it helps
orient ourselves in space andtime.
This part of the brain shows adecrease in activity.
So to me it's not only you know, we're sitting here describing
the transcendent.
We're sitting here describingthe transcendent, but there is a
(39:21):
literal, biological sort ofreaction that is also going on
within yourself.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
There's no question about that.
But I think all that that issaying is we are a function of
body and soul, and what that'ssaying is this is where,
materially, it's occurring.
It doesn't tell you what theexperience is but there's a
physical response to it well,we're physical beings, right,
(39:48):
and so it doesn't surprise methat there would be a physical
response to it and so, but?
But it doesn't tell you whatthe connection is it?
For example, you can experiencebeauty somewhere and the brain
will react to it, but that youwouldn't say reaction is beauty
itself.
You know so.
But I would say that because itis 8 45 that we have to go to a
(40:13):
break, that that experience ofa break is not easy to
experience, right especiallywhen we're ready to keep talking
.
I'll keep my mouth shut.
This is 1070 Cantia.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 7 (40:28):
AM 1070, the answer.
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Speaker 10 (41:59):
A message from T dot mike gallagher reflects on the
past decade 10 years ago thisweek, donald trump came down the
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We've seen it all upended.
It's been completely upended bythis man.
Speaker 7 (42:21):
He's changed everything and it's a big deal
the Mike Gallagher Show weekdaymornings at 8 on AM 1070 and FM
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Speaker 3 (42:57):
The Answer Before we go on.
Wait.
Before we do that again.
I want to say that if you haveany question for minister or
priest or rabbi or millennialmaster's degree in theology,
email us at ashowoffaith1070,ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom and
put in the subject line A offaith and July 6th.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
We might actually answer your question on the air
yeah, before we go on, I wouldlike to have recommend a book
that I think is tremendous.
It is.
The book is just called Believe.
The title of the book is justcalled Believe, okay, and the
(43:42):
book is by Ross Douthat.
Now let me spell that Basically.
The whole point is why everyoneshould be religious, why
non-belief requires ignoringwhat our reasoning faculties
tell us about the world.
That book is a masterpiece, Ireally think.
(44:05):
How do you spell?
Ross is R-O-S-S and the lastname is Doudat D-O-U-T-H-A-T, so
it's like the last name is D Oand then the word that D-O-U,
(44:25):
d-o, no, just D-O-U, d-o-u, andthen the word that, okay, ross
got that and he is the he is thereligion reporter for the New
York Times, okay, and he'sexcellent.
He wrote another book which I'mreading right now called Bad
Religion, and he's excellent.
He wrote another book which I'mreading right now called Bad
Religion.
He's excellent too, but Icannot recommend this book
(44:47):
highly enough.
Ross Daldat, believe.
Why Everyone Should BeReligious, why non-belief
requires ignoring what ourreasoning faculties tell us
about the world.
And then how?
Speaker 5 (45:03):
No, I think that reminds me what Rudy was talking
about a minute ago, and what hewas underscoring about how our
brains respond to certain things.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, and that's exactly.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
It's exactly the reason the scriptures tell us
that we are fearfully andwonderfully made.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:26):
And that we have not even scratched the surface of
neuroscience and what brains doand how our left brain and right
brain and this and that relateI mean we know very little and
this and that relate to I meanwe know very little about it.
So I think a part of what isgoing to be happening in medical
(45:53):
over the next 50 years is goingto be deeper and deeper
explorations into the brain andhumanity and all that.
But it doesn't surprise me tohear that there are certain
kinds of responses in the brainwhen we encounter these objects,
when we encounter this idea ofsacredness and transcendence.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Well, it's interesting because in this book
part of the tagline is how anopen-minded religious quest
should proceed.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
And then Sorry, go ahead.
Quest should proceed.
And then, sorry, go ahead, goahead.
David, one of those.
I have to tell you that one ofthe most brilliant proofs for
the existence of god is basedaround you know what mario and
you were just talking about?
That the human brain reacts tosomething spiritual.
(46:39):
Do you remember what I'mtalking about?
Speaker 5 (46:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean a few years ago.
I'm not sure whether this isexactly what you're referring to
, but scientists, researchers,discovered what they thought on
a certain type of MRI thatreflects I think it's magnetism
that reflects blood flow, thatkind of thing that shows certain
(47:05):
parts of the brain lighting up,as it were, when there's
meditation going on, whenthere's prayer going on, when
there are certain spiritualexperiences that they're having.
Is that what you're referringto, stuart?
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Well, explicitly, what you said that night on a
show of faith was we have eyesbecause there's something to see
, we have ears because there'ssomething to hear and the brain
responds to the divine becausethere's God.
Yeah, as a proof for theexistence of God.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I thought was just brilliant it's very simple what
I was trying to say before Istarted coughing.
I'm trying to get over a cold.
One of the taglines is howmodern scientific developments
make religious worldview morecredible, not less.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Haley.
Yes, one of the things that Ithink is crucial, especially in
today's day and age, is there'sdefinitely a rise in atheism,
and I completely agree with whatyou guys were saying.
(48:12):
I think in the secular worldthere's a sacredness that they
still hold quote-unquote outsideof religion, and I think most
predominantly you can see it inthis sort of modern psychology
that we see today and sort ofthe deviation of the
transcendent that's occurred andthere's been a lot of cases,
(48:36):
and I know we only have a couplemore minutes left, but I kind
of wanted to talk a little bitabout this sort of within the
modern context, maybe just aminute or two each of how do you
guys see it, sort ofunderstanding or what you find.
I mean, for example, david, wecould disagree on the objects
(49:08):
that we hold sacred, but we bothhold certain objects sacred and
I would never tell you you know, that's not a sacred object,
because I don't have the sameexperiences that you have.
I mean it would be like metelling David you know that's
not a sacred object because Idon't have the same experiences
that you have.
I mean it would be like metelling David you know your
son's ashes?
They're just ashes.
You know it's a crazy thing tosay to somebody.
(49:34):
And I think we're in a crucialtime within our sort of culture
where we're kind of trying tostrip all this meaning of
something and of thetranscendent and just kind of
refocus it on just themateriality.
So I guess what I want to askeach one of you guys real quick
is just kind of how do you seeit, or what are your fears
(49:58):
really of, kind of what thefuture brings, or do you see
these conflicts at all?
Speaker 2 (50:04):
kind of in the same way, yeah, I will respond to
that, rudy.
I think what's happening rightnow is the beginnings of a
religious revival, from yourmouth to God's ears.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Yeah, because I don't know ifyou've been hearing about the
British report in the Catholicmedia or even in secular media
(50:27):
that baptisms and professions offaith and membership in the
Catholic Church is going up.
This last year we saw atremendous rise in the number of
people coming into the CatholicChurch and into Judaism as well
, and Judaism as well In thesynagogue and the church,
absolutely.
David, have you noticedanything like that?
Speaker 5 (50:49):
Well, listen, it wasn't long ago.
There was an article in theWall Street Journal that
demonstrated and it's a verycurious thing that Bible sales
were up 23 percent over previousyears.
Now, when you think about that,that's a lot of money, that's a
lot of print 23 percent andmost of those, many of those
(51:12):
were among first-time biblebuyers, not people just adding a
10th or 11th Bible to theirstacks.
Right, this is new.
We're also seeing Generation Z,gen Z men returning to at least
the Christian faith.
This is a Christian phenomenon,but I'm probably sure it's
(51:35):
happening in other places aswell are returning to the
Christian faith in significantnumbers.
This is happening in GreatBritain, it's happening in the
United States, it's happening ina variety, in a lot of Western
people.
I think what it tells us isthat the modern project, the
(51:56):
idea of modernity and simplytrying to say we're all just
material, we're just all a bagof chemicals, that's all we are,
is, does not, has not producedsatisfaction, hasn't produced
meaning and purpose, and all ofus are in pursuit of that.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
I think they're also finding out that science isn't
the be all and end all of lifeeither.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Science doesn't answer all the questions and you
know, actually, science,science is coming around to you
know, scientists are having tobegin to believe in more and
more outrageous things to beable to deny God, because the
moment you're talking about thisand this is from Daudat's book,
but the whole notion, if youget down to the Big bang, theory
(52:51):
.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
All you have to do is said when you encounter a
scientist, you just say, hey,what went bang?
What?
Where did it come from?
Whatever it was that wouldn'tbang.
We can't have nothing go bang,nothing from nothing leaves
nothing, right?
Speaker 5 (53:03):
yep.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
Rudy, any closing.
Speaker 4 (53:06):
We have about a minute yeah, it's interesting
because and I sort of mentionedthis in what I wrote to you guys
it's kind of a fundamentalparadox, because objects that
are meant to connect believers,if you will, to the divine are,
in a very real sense, also thethings that create some of our
(53:30):
deepest divisions, right?
I mean when you think of theeucharist right, I mean this is,
this is the thing thatseparates us from every other
type of christian, if you willright.
I mean there's a couple otherthings, but it's one of the most
common.
Speaker 5 (53:46):
I do think, rudy.
Think about what happened anumber of years ago, when they
started burning all the Koransand the sacred objects.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
Yeah, or when they tried to draw Mohammed in France
and that famous that guy waskilled for it or when they
started destroying all theBuddhas in, I think, india or
somewhere well folks, we aregetting 20 seconds from the end
of the show so you have beenlistening to three, no four,
(54:24):
wonderful men.
Speaker 7 (54:26):
Four wonderful men.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
Wait, why were you going to leave me out?
No, just kidding.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
So this has been 1070 KNTH.
You're listening to the Show ofFaith.
Please, during this week, keepus in your prayers.
You know why?
Because you are going to be inours.
Well, I guess it would be nice If I could touch
your body.
I know, not everybody has got abody like you, but I gotta
think twice Before I give myheart away.
And I know all the games youplay Because I play them too.
Oh, but I need some time offFrom that emotion, time to pick
(00:29):
my part up off the floor.
Oh well, that love comes downwith a devotion.
Well, it takes a storm, baby,but I'm sure I'll shoot the door
, cause I gotta have faith.
I gotta have faith Cause Igotta have faith.
(00:55):
I don't think we're on.
I can't hear it.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I can't no Nothing on my earphones.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
You can't hear through your earphones.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
No, which I'm fine.
I mean, the only thing I don'tneed is to.
I guess I don't need to listento Rudy or David.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I mean, what does he know?
He's on a master's degree.
Wow, oh no.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I can hear Rudy.
Yeah, I can hear Rudy.
Okay, I can't hear myself.
That's it.
That's it, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Roger, are you in studio?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I'm here, mario's here.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
Live Mario made it Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Welcome back.
I got back Saturday.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yesterday, yesterday.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm still a little bit tipsy.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
We can't hear the rabbi.
I don't know, David.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, we can't.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yeah, I'm not hearing Stuart much All right Rabbi,
just bring in the whole group.
Hello.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Every time I know.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, that's mine.
Speaker 5 (02:11):
That's yours, we're trying to sort this out.
Folks, sorry about this.
Got some challenges technicalchallenges here tonight
technical challenges we workwith can you guys hear me?
(02:36):
Yeah, we can hear you now,rabbi.
In fact, you're way too loud,that's even better.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, I know you.
You would say that not speakingat all would be the best.
All right, so this is the Showof Faith on AM1070, the Answer
where minister, priest,professor, professor, priest,
millennial and rabbi discusstheology, philosophy, morality
and ethics and anything else ofinterest in religion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
(03:17):
regarding what we say, we wouldlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
That's ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
That's it.
You can hear our shows againand again by listening, pretty
much everywhere podcasts areheard.
Our priest is Father MarioArroyo, retired pastor of St
(03:38):
Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000block of Westheimer.
Hello, Our professor is davidcapes, protestant minister,
director of academic programmingfor the linear theological
library great to be with youguys tonight rudy congas, our
millennial systems engineer andmaster's degree in theology from
the university of saint thomashowdy, howdy I am rabbi stewart
(03:59):
federo, retired rabbi ofcongregation the clear lake area
of houston, texas.
Crystal yeah, I'm so bad withnames.
Crystal is our board operatortonight.
Thank you, crystal, you make ussound wonderful thank you,
crystal she didn't have herearphones on.
(04:20):
So he said thank you, crystal.
Father mario, tell us aboutyour trip.
Did you have fun?
She didn't have her earphoneson.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
so he said thank you, Chris.
Oh, no problem.
Yes, right, Father Mario, tellus about your trip.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Did you have fun?
Yeah, I did, you know.
No, by the way, for those ofyou who are wondering what trip
I went to Spain and Portugal andit was very good, but no two
weeks, whenever you're okay,Everything's going to go well.
But I would say 80% went verywell, good, very well.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
That's pretty good yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
My favorite was Portugal.
I loved Portugal.
It's wonderful.
I had a wonderful time there.
I'd never been there.
I found it just easy tounderstand a little bit.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Really Between Portuguese and Spanish.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Portuguese and Spanish are pretty good.
You may speak slow enough, andit was really very, very good.
And I went to Fatima, theArlenia, fatima.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Did you really yeah Wow?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And that was very interesting.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Now for those who don't know what Fatima is what
is Fatima?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Fatima is an apparition of the Blessed Mother
that occurred in the late 19thcentury, I think.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Rudy is that correct.
I want to say early.
Wasn't it 1920, when the it wasalready 20th century?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I don't remember, but it was very, very good.
I enjoyed it very much sowelcome back, thank you.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Rudy, you are a show director.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
I am and it's kind of it's kind of curious that, rudy
, you are a show director, I am,and it's kind of curious that
Meyer kind of brings this.
It's kind of on my list toogoing to Panama as Catholics.
It's a pretty sort of I mean,of course you're not obligated
(06:24):
to go, or even really kind ofit's just a site of great
devotion, right.
So what's the topic Based onour last conversation, I wanted
to talk today about and, david,I think you kind of touched on
(06:45):
it too on what you mentionedearlier in our chat I wanted to
talk about objects, right, andthe effect that these objects,
and specifically sacred objects,have in physical things, our
(07:07):
universe, materiality, creation.
Now, I wanted to start by kindof giving a couple things that
of course I read the Bible andI'm not a biblical scholar by
any means, that I don't pretendto be I read it, I read it every
day and and um, there's alwaysI don't know, I mean of course,
(07:30):
for you guys, but there's alwayssome passages that just kind of
they kind of like just liverent free in my brain like all
the time and, and I kind of gothrough phases, um, um, for
example, the, the, the verse of,of, when jesus, like, condemns
this, this fig tree, uh, thatone, this man, lived red tree in
(07:53):
my brain for for a while.
But, um, the, the one that hasbeen most in my brain and led me
really to this, to choosingthis, this, uh, this topic
stemmed from, from the readingin exodus, um, uh, 25, where god
, um, he gives moses precise andspecific, um sort of
(08:18):
specifications for the ark ofthe covenant, right, I mean, and
it's quite a bit of the chapter, right, it's like 13, 14 verses
, right, and it's the specificwood and it's like two and a
half cubits long, a cube and ahalf wide, you know, and it's
just very intricate and very,very specific dimensions.
(08:44):
The material of gold it'ssupposed to be made of gold,
molding right and around it, andthere's just this entire detail
of it.
And then it got me to thinkingtoo, the effect that the Ark had
in other passages, right, andI'm reminded of Samuel,
specifically, of Samuelspecifically, and most I don't
(09:08):
know if I'm saying it thePhilistines, right, it's when
the Philistines they take theArk of the Covenant and there's
just a huge death toll thatamounts within the Philistine
sort of community, and they'reabsolutely terrified until they
(09:29):
return the Ark back to Israel.
And so that got me thinking.
There's a lot of objects,literal objects, right, or
material things that have this.
I don't want to say just divineaura, this, I don't want to say
just divine aura.
(09:50):
Take the staff of Moses rightand and within the the newer
testaments, I thought about thegarment, right, jesus, this
garment, when, when there's thiswoman that has the hemorrhage
and she's trying to find somesort of solution to this and she
spends all her money and allher money I think it's Mark Mark
(10:10):
, chapter five and she goes andjust touches Jesus' garment and
Jesus feels that there's thispower.
That's and he says it,something's drained out of me,
right, and so I wanted to talkabout the importance that this
has had, because, for, for a lotof, for a lot of history, um,
(10:35):
art, god was always depictingthings in a particular way.
Right, god presented himself ina particular way to humanity,
right, and of course, jesus cameand sort of put everything sort
of on its heels, right, I mean,when John says in the beginning
(11:01):
was the Word, and the Word waswith God and the Word was God.
(11:31):
This kind of birth of God intothe world changes the way we see
these types of—I'm just goingto use the form of Jesus Christ
to just objects.
Right, I mean, as much as he isman, he's also God, at least to
our understanding as Christians.
Now, before that, god usesmultiple objects to perform
miracles, right of his divinesort of will, of his presence.
I'm reminded of the burningbush and even today and I kind
(11:57):
of want to sort of break it downa little bit further, right,
because I think within each ofour religions and David you kind
of have I'd like to talk alittle bit about some of the
differences too, because I thinkas Catholics, we put maybe a
very high value on these typesof objects, and there's some
(12:21):
cultural things that we all sortof agree on that are important
that we value.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
Rudy, I think what I would probably disagree with the
idea that they're called divineobjects.
I think I would prefer to callthem just simply sacred objects
that we accord to them, weassign to them some kind of
sacredness.
(12:48):
And yeah, it could begin withGod.
It could begin with Goddescribing the tabernacle, the
Ark of the Covenant and itsconstruction, the ephod or the
garment worn by the high priest,all of that.
But I wouldn't say that theseobjects are divine.
What I would prefer to say isthat we regard them in some
(13:10):
sense as sacred and they carryupon them some sense of
transcendent quality that isdistinct from a bowl that you
would find in the kitchen, let'ssay a bowl that you would find
in the kitchen, let's say a bowlthat you would have in the
temple.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Yeah, now I think it's an important distinction to
make, right, because we, asCatholics, live this every
Sunday with the Eucharist andthe transubstantiation.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
So before that moment , yeah, I would say that the
Eucharist and I'm glad youmentioned that, because the
Eucharist and this is where Iwould I don't know how David
would come down on this, but forCatholics, the Eucharist is a
divine object- but would youclassify it the same way you
(14:04):
would classify a cross aroundyour neck?
No, not at all.
That's the distinction.
Not at all.
I mean, when you are consumingthe bread or the wine which is
the Eucharist, it's a differentquality.
You're talking about the verybody and blood of the Lord.
30 seconds, that's where thingsvery much change.
(14:27):
But let's go to a break andwe'll continue this, because
that's a fascinating transitionbetween that.
So this is KMTH 1070.
You're listening to the Show ofFaith here.
Speaker 9 (14:57):
And we will be right back.
We will be right back.
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gifts or whatever your needsHunting equipment, any kind of
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The Answer.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
You're an angel to me , johnny Angel.
How I love him, how I tinglewhen he passes by.
Every time he says hello, myheart begins to fly, johnny
(17:28):
Angel.
My heart begins to fly, johnnyAngel, how I want him.
He's got something that I can'tresist, but he doesn't even
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(17:48):
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(18:13):
see how lovely heaven will be.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And together we will see how lovely heaven will be
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 1070 Answer.
And for those of you who wehope are listening to us, we
have an announcement On July 6th, the first Sunday of July, we
are going to entertain yourquestions.
(18:42):
Your emailed-in questions Go toashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom.
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Put a show of faith in thesubject line and email us your
questions and if we like yourquestions, we'll answer them on
the air.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
What if we don't like them?
Then we'll answer them on theair.
Well, we don't like them.
What if we don't like them?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, then we'll ignore them, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Or we might answer them anyway.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
We will not ignore them.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Okay, fine, but we haven't done this in a long time
.
We're not on the air for twohours, we're only on the air for
one hour.
How's that a diplomatic way?
And we stopped taking phonecalls, but we missed the
(19:33):
interplay, we missed talkingwith people, so I don't yes,
there are parts of me that alsodoes not.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, well, david, you know, david, we we can say, hey
, we miss you, we miss you.
I really don't.
A lot of people we used to callmen.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Oh no, they used to use us to get to our audiences.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, yeah so anyway, let's go back to the subject.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Right so.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Rudy, where do you want to go with this?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Rabbi.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
So we're talking about objects and I think we
came to a very sort ofinteresting distinction that
kind of separates how we see andexperience and sort of engage
with the transcendent as far asus Catholics understand it now,
(20:21):
um, I don't think, I don't knowif within judaism now, um, I
mean, would you go as far as tocall the ark of the covenant a
divine?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I mean, it's considered a sacred thing sacred
, the word I would use rightthis is what it was understood
at, but it wasn't God.
But the word I would use wouldbe holy or sacred, set apart.
What does holy mean?
Holy means set apart, different, distinct, special, and there
(20:53):
might be a whole bunch ofdifferent boxes that are inlaid
with gold and whatever, but it'snot the Ark.
The Ark is separate, special,different from all the other
boxes with gold laid onto it.
You know, a crucifix is plentyof gold jewelry, but a crucifix
or a cross is different than anyother piece of jewelry.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
It's sacred set apart .
Sacred art.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Exactly, it's holy, set apart, different, distinct.
And to me, rudy, what was mostinteresting about what you wrote
to us setting up our discussionfor tonight is that human
beings need their physicalreminders of their spiritual
relationships.
Yeah, you know, and it doesn'tmatter if it's a cross, crucifix
(21:41):
high around the neck, yarmulkeon top of the head or WWJD
bracelet.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
We need our reminders one of the things that I think
is important, because when Rudybrought this up, I thought it
was very good.
Yeah, me too, because we'retalking about what we call
Catholicism has all kinds ofsacred stuff.
I mean, if you think about it,for example, how do we we as
(22:12):
Catholics we as Catholicsunderstand our communication
with God?
I just spoke today about thewhole idea that when you
communicate, you need a personto answer back.
So how do we hear from God?
We can talk to God, but how doyou hear from God?
Now, I don't know if this is thesame.
(22:34):
What I'm going to say is thesame thing as the Baptist or the
Protestant traditions, as faras they exist.
But, for example, for us, whenyou talk about the sacraments,
the sacraments, we have sevensacraments, and the seven
sacraments are each one of themhave what's called matter and
(22:57):
form?
Are each one of them havewhat's called matter and form?
Okay, so, for example, what isthe matter and the form of
baptism?
Well, the matter of baptism iswater, but the form is I baptize
you in the name of the Father,son and the Holy Spirit, amen,
okay, so my form.
Form is the words, the wordsthat you speak, yeah, the words
(23:18):
that you speak, yeah, the wordsthat you speak.
So, for example, in theSacrament of Reconciliation, the
matter is the imposition ofhands, and then the form is I
absolve you from all of yoursins.
In the Eucharist, the matter isthe bread and the wine and the
(23:43):
form is Jesusesus's words ofinstitution.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
So for you, the form isn't, whether or not it's full
submersion or sprinkle orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
No, it's the actual words when I hear the word form
I think how it's done.
No, the form is the word okay,okay, okay.
And so, for example, in inanointing of the sick, uh, is
the oil you will use, oil toanoint, you know?
And and in confirmation, oil,sacred chrism is a different
kinds of, there's differentkinds of oils and oils are used.
So for us it's sacred stuff,but I I just want to and I'll
(24:15):
say this very quickly because Iknow we're coming up to a break
what I see is that at thebeginning of creation here's how
I understand this is just alittle parable.
I made up Not parable a littleimage I made up At the beginning
of creation.
I believe almost everything inthe world had a mirror surface.
(24:37):
Imagine that everything had amirror surface.
What does a mirror do?
A mirror reflects light.
Okay, when human beingscommitted the original sin which
that's what it's saying what isthe back of a mirror?
Look like?
The back of a mirror is black.
(24:58):
You don't get it.
Imagine the whole of creation,instead of reflecting God's
light, turned upside down, andso the whole of creation no
longer reflected light.
When Jesus becomes human, bytaking on matter, human matter,
(25:22):
he begins the turning around ofmatter to be reflective of God.
And so, all of a sudden, nowyou have holy objects.
Why holy objects or sacredobjects?
Because since, for us, asCatholics or Christians, since
the incarnation, all of matternow has the possibility of being
(25:47):
reflective of light, and we'llcontinue this brilliant example
when we come back after thebreak.
This is 1070 KFDH and we'll beright back 1070 and FM 1033, the
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Speaker 2 (28:53):
Welcome back to the show of faith.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yes, welcome back to the show of faith.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I'll just finish with you know I was using the image
of the mirror Mirror right.
That reality has the potentialof reflecting the sacred.
So whenever, see we asCatholics, we got all kinds of
holy stuff, you know we got.
We got holy bread, we got holywine, we got holy statues bread,
(29:22):
we got holy wine, we got holystatues.
We got a holy objects.
We even have holy smoke.
Okay, with the insects, and sofor us, reality is has the
potential to reflect the holyand, and that is sacred objects.
Of course it's a hierarchy ofsacred objects.
The most sacred object is, ofcourse, when the object itself
(29:46):
becomes the presence of Godhimself in the Eucharist.
Okay, but from down, from there, you have the sacramental
matter, like baptism has waterand the holy oils and things
like that, and then you havewhat's called the sacramentals,
which is whenever I blessanything, you know you're
(30:09):
elevating it to reflect.
I basically understand that I'mtaking, say, a crucifix.
A crucifix is just metal theycan make them off a factory.
But when a person comes to meand I bless a crucifix, what I
understand I'm doing is that I'mturning that object over and so
(30:31):
that the mirror surface of thatobject, the potential that that
object had to be reflective ofthe divine, becomes active, so
that for that person especially,and to some degree in and of
itself, that objects becomes nowreflective of the actual light
of christ.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
And see I, I would argue, and they will not agree
with me is that the secularcommunity.
They may not have objects thatreflect the divine, but they
have sacred and holy things tothem.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That's what's called.
That's what's called civilreligion exactly civil, but they
will.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
They will treat objects.
Yeah, like the religious willtreat religious objects and set
apart special secular.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
The secular life has has liturgies.
You know, for example, thechanging of the guard.
Oh, the two new in englandright.
Or they have liturgical music.
You know hail to the chief.
You know, whatever we have theamerican national anthem?
Absolutely, we have, you knowthat's.
That's a whole area of studycalled civil religion and how
(31:41):
civil life becomes very muchlike religious life.
Yes, so anyway, rudy, that'sall yeah let me.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Go ahead, David.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Well, let me just suggest First of all, I like the
analogy that you use about themirror and all of matter being
able to be turned.
I see that as a work of God.
I see that as something thatreally is beyond us as human
beings.
We can work with God, religiousor not.
(32:34):
that sacramentalizes a varietyof things, and to regard certain
items, certain things as havingsacredness that have nothing to
do with religion but have allto do with things that are just
greater than we are, and I thinkabout the graveside of someone
who has passed away, and I thinkabout the graves itself, and I
(32:57):
think about the headstone, and Ithink about people going to
those spots, laying flowers,absolutely, and the place.
They may have no religion atall, but but nevertheless, that
little bit of real estate wheretheir beloved mother or
grandmother or father are buriedis a very special, special
(33:19):
place for them.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
When things happen there, you know, david, anything
like, for example, in my, in myroom, in my house, I have an
old bathrobe that I cannot throwaway, and the reason is that
that was the bathrobe that myfather was wearing throughout
his cancer and he died in that,and so that is a sacred object,
(33:44):
exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:47):
Yeah, and you regard that not like you would the
Eucharist or something else,right, but still it occupies a
very special place for you, andthat's the steward's definition
of what holiness is being madespecial, set apart, and I think
that's just part of it.
There's an old expressioncalled there's no honor, there's
(34:10):
honor among thieves.
You know, honor meansessentially, I give weight to
something.
That thing has weight in mylife, it has significance.
So, regardless of a person'smorals or lack of morals, or
religiosity or lack ofreligiosity, we each reach for
and have things that we honorand that we regard as distinct
(34:36):
from everything else around it,whether it's a bathrobe or my
son's ashes.
Daniel's ashes are in my bedroomand that, to me, is a very
special thing, and from time totime I'll put my hand on it,
I'll talk to my son, I'll talkto God, and this represents for
(35:02):
me the last remaining physicalevidence of my son's life, right
, yeah, and when you have that,it's not just a thing.
It's not just a thing, it'ssomething.
I have no clue what will happenwith it once I'm left this
(35:23):
earth, but it's still for me.
I regard it as deeply emotional, sacred, spiritual.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Well, I mean, think about wedding rings.
You know, rudy, when you lookat your hand and in your wife's
hand and you see that weddingring, and you see, yeah, so
that's a sacred object.
It, they're, they're, they'reobjects that bring you in touch
with the transcendent.
They're objects that are tied,that give you a sense of what is
(35:54):
beyond.
That's what I what I callsacramental.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
But you notice how they all have functions.
Well, they are Not necessarilythe secular objects, like the
robe, it had a function keepingwarm or whatever.
But the religious items have afunction.
Okay, the water I don't know,this is a Christian theological
(36:22):
statement, I guess I'm probablymisstating, but it cleanses the
soul.
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, the yarmulke okay, is aphysical reminder.
There's a reason for it.
There's a Deuteronomy 6 objectwe put on a door post.
It's a physical reminder of ourspiritual relationship, a
(36:42):
reminder to keep thecommandments.
It has explicit function.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
You know, I see this as tremendously connected to the
etymology of the word religion,because remember the word
religion, re.
Anytime you put re in front ofanything, it means do it again,
right, okay.
Ligion is a form of the wordreligion read.
Anytime you put re in front ofanything, it means do it again,
right, okay.
Ligion is a form of the wordligada, which means to connect
like ligament.
Ligament, that's right.
(37:06):
So, really, god is to reconnect, and so there are objects that
literally reconnect you right tosome kind of transcendent
experience that I would argue insome way is tied to the divine.
I would say, for example, myfather's robe is a tie that I
(37:29):
have to his memory, but he isalready in God.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And parents represent God to children.
Yes, so it's even a greaterconnection to children.
Yes, so it's even a greaterconnection to God.
That's right.
Yeah, coming to your father.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Rudy, your turn.
This is your subject.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
Yeah, well, I wanted to talk a little bit about some
of the neuroscience of sacredobjects, because I think it's
quite important.
There's an important researchthat was done by Dr Andrew
Newberg out of the ThomasJefferson University, and this
guy, he spent decades studyingthe brains of people and he
(38:11):
would do scans on them as theywould engage in religious
practices.
He published this book calledhow God Changes your Brain.
It's pretty interesting, but hewrites this and this is kind of
a quick excerpt.
But when subjects view objectsthey consider sacred whether a
(38:34):
cross or a scroll or prayerbeads, whether a cross or a
scroll or prayer beads we seeactivation in the limbic system,
particularly the amygdala andthe hippocampus, which are
predominantly areas associatedwith emotional significance and
memory.
Now simultaneously, theposterior superior parietal lobe
(38:58):
, and I know that's a lot, butwhat this does is it helps
orient ourselves in space andtime.
This part of the brain shows adecrease in activity.
So to me it's not only you know, we're sitting here describing
the transcendent.
We're sitting here describingthe transcendent, but there is a
(39:21):
literal, biological sort ofreaction that is also going on
within yourself.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
There's no question about that.
But I think all that that issaying is we are a function of
body and soul, and what that'ssaying is this is where,
materially, it's occurring.
It doesn't tell you what theexperience is but there's a
physical response to it well,we're physical beings, right,
(39:48):
and so it doesn't surprise methat there would be a physical
response to it and so, but?
But it doesn't tell you whatthe connection is it?
For example, you can experiencebeauty somewhere and the brain
will react to it, but that youwouldn't say reaction is beauty
itself.
You know so.
But I would say that because itis 8 45 that we have to go to a
(40:13):
break, that that experience ofa break is not easy to
experience, right especiallywhen we're ready to keep talking
.
I'll keep my mouth shut.
This is 1070 Cantia.
We'll be right back.
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AM 1070, the answer.
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The Answer Before we go on.
Wait.
Before we do that again.
I want to say that if you haveany question for minister or
priest or rabbi or millennialmaster's degree in theology,
email us at ashowoffaith1070,ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom and
put in the subject line A offaith and July 6th.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
We might actually answer your question on the air
yeah, before we go on, I wouldlike to have recommend a book
that I think is tremendous.
It is.
The book is just called Believe.
The title of the book is justcalled Believe, okay, and the
(43:42):
book is by Ross Douthat.
Now let me spell that Basically.
The whole point is why everyoneshould be religious, why
non-belief requires ignoringwhat our reasoning faculties
tell us about the world.
That book is a masterpiece, Ireally think.
(44:05):
How do you spell?
Ross is R-O-S-S and the lastname is Doudat D-O-U-T-H-A-T, so
it's like the last name is D Oand then the word that D-O-U,
(44:25):
d-o, no, just D-O-U, d-o-u, andthen the word that, okay, ross
got that and he is the he is thereligion reporter for the New
York Times, okay, and he'sexcellent.
He wrote another book which I'mreading right now called Bad
Religion, and he's excellent.
He wrote another book which I'mreading right now called Bad
Religion.
He's excellent too, but Icannot recommend this book
(44:47):
highly enough.
Ross Daldat, believe.
Why Everyone Should BeReligious, why non-belief
requires ignoring what ourreasoning faculties tell us
about the world.
And then how?
Speaker 5 (45:03):
No, I think that reminds me what Rudy was talking
about a minute ago, and what hewas underscoring about how our
brains respond to certain things.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, and that's exactly.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
It's exactly the reason the scriptures tell us
that we are fearfully andwonderfully made.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (45:26):
And that we have not even scratched the surface of
neuroscience and what brains doand how our left brain and right
brain and this and that relateI mean we know very little and
this and that relate to I meanwe know very little about it.
So I think a part of what isgoing to be happening in medical
(45:53):
over the next 50 years is goingto be deeper and deeper
explorations into the brain andhumanity and all that.
But it doesn't surprise me tohear that there are certain
kinds of responses in the brainwhen we encounter these objects,
when we encounter this idea ofsacredness and transcendence.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Well, it's interesting because in this book
part of the tagline is how anopen-minded religious quest
should proceed.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
And then Sorry, go ahead.
Quest should proceed.
And then, sorry, go ahead, goahead.
David, one of those.
I have to tell you that one ofthe most brilliant proofs for
the existence of god is basedaround you know what mario and
you were just talking about?
That the human brain reacts tosomething spiritual.
(46:39):
Do you remember what I'mtalking about?
Speaker 5 (46:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean a few years ago.
I'm not sure whether this isexactly what you're referring to
, but scientists, researchers,discovered what they thought on
a certain type of MRI thatreflects I think it's magnetism
that reflects blood flow, thatkind of thing that shows certain
(47:05):
parts of the brain lighting up,as it were, when there's
meditation going on, whenthere's prayer going on, when
there are certain spiritualexperiences that they're having.
Is that what you're referringto, stuart?
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Well, explicitly, what you said that night on a
show of faith was we have eyesbecause there's something to see
, we have ears because there'ssomething to hear and the brain
responds to the divine becausethere's God.
Yeah, as a proof for theexistence of God.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I thought was just brilliant it's very simple what
I was trying to say before Istarted coughing.
I'm trying to get over a cold.
One of the taglines is howmodern scientific developments
make religious worldview morecredible, not less.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Haley.
Yes, one of the things that Ithink is crucial, especially in
today's day and age, is there'sdefinitely a rise in atheism,
and I completely agree with whatyou guys were saying.
(48:12):
I think in the secular worldthere's a sacredness that they
still hold quote-unquote outsideof religion, and I think most
predominantly you can see it inthis sort of modern psychology
that we see today and sort ofthe deviation of the
transcendent that's occurred andthere's been a lot of cases,
(48:36):
and I know we only have a couplemore minutes left, but I kind
of wanted to talk a little bitabout this sort of within the
modern context, maybe just aminute or two each of how do you
guys see it, sort ofunderstanding or what you find.
I mean, for example, david, wecould disagree on the objects
(49:08):
that we hold sacred, but we bothhold certain objects sacred and
I would never tell you you know, that's not a sacred object,
because I don't have the sameexperiences that you have.
I mean it would be like metelling David you know that's
not a sacred object because Idon't have the same experiences
that you have.
I mean it would be like metelling David you know your
son's ashes?
They're just ashes.
You know it's a crazy thing tosay to somebody.
(49:34):
And I think we're in a crucialtime within our sort of culture
where we're kind of trying tostrip all this meaning of
something and of thetranscendent and just kind of
refocus it on just themateriality.
So I guess what I want to askeach one of you guys real quick
is just kind of how do you seeit, or what are your fears
(49:58):
really of, kind of what thefuture brings, or do you see
these conflicts at all?
Speaker 2 (50:04):
kind of in the same way, yeah, I will respond to
that, rudy.
I think what's happening rightnow is the beginnings of a
religious revival, from yourmouth to God's ears.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Yeah, because I don't know ifyou've been hearing about the
British report in the Catholicmedia or even in secular media
(50:27):
that baptisms and professions offaith and membership in the
Catholic Church is going up.
This last year we saw atremendous rise in the number of
people coming into the CatholicChurch and into Judaism as well
, and Judaism as well In thesynagogue and the church,
absolutely.
David, have you noticedanything like that?
Speaker 5 (50:49):
Well, listen, it wasn't long ago.
There was an article in theWall Street Journal that
demonstrated and it's a verycurious thing that Bible sales
were up 23 percent over previousyears.
Now, when you think about that,that's a lot of money, that's a
lot of print 23 percent andmost of those, many of those
(51:12):
were among first-time biblebuyers, not people just adding a
10th or 11th Bible to theirstacks.
Right, this is new.
We're also seeing Generation Z,gen Z men returning to at least
the Christian faith.
This is a Christian phenomenon,but I'm probably sure it's
(51:35):
happening in other places aswell are returning to the
Christian faith in significantnumbers.
This is happening in GreatBritain, it's happening in the
United States, it's happening ina variety, in a lot of Western
people.
I think what it tells us isthat the modern project, the
(51:56):
idea of modernity and simplytrying to say we're all just
material, we're just all a bagof chemicals, that's all we are,
is, does not, has not producedsatisfaction, hasn't produced
meaning and purpose, and all ofus are in pursuit of that.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
I think they're also finding out that science isn't
the be all and end all of lifeeither.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Science doesn't answer all the questions and you
know, actually, science,science is coming around to you
know, scientists are having tobegin to believe in more and
more outrageous things to beable to deny God, because the
moment you're talking about thisand this is from Daudat's book,
but the whole notion, if youget down to the Big bang, theory
(52:51):
.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
All you have to do is said when you encounter a
scientist, you just say, hey,what went bang?
What?
Where did it come from?
Whatever it was that wouldn'tbang.
We can't have nothing go bang,nothing from nothing leaves
nothing, right?
Speaker 5 (53:03):
yep.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
Rudy, any closing.
Speaker 4 (53:06):
We have about a minute yeah, it's interesting
because and I sort of mentionedthis in what I wrote to you guys
it's kind of a fundamentalparadox, because objects that
are meant to connect believers,if you will, to the divine are,
in a very real sense, also thethings that create some of our
(53:30):
deepest divisions, right?
I mean when you think of theeucharist right, I mean this is,
this is the thing thatseparates us from every other
type of christian, if you willright.
I mean there's a couple otherthings, but it's one of the most
common.
Speaker 5 (53:46):
I do think, rudy.
Think about what happened anumber of years ago, when they
started burning all the Koransand the sacred objects.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
Yeah, or when they tried to draw Mohammed in France
and that famous that guy waskilled for it or when they
started destroying all theBuddhas in, I think, india or
somewhere well folks, we aregetting 20 seconds from the end
of the show so you have beenlistening to three, no four,
(54:24):
wonderful men.
Speaker 7 (54:26):
Four wonderful men.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
Wait, why were you going to leave me out?
No, just kidding.
Speaker 2 (54:30):
So this has been 1070 KNTH.
You're listening to the Show ofFaith.
Please, during this week, keepus in your prayers.
You know why?
Because you are going to be inours.
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