May 4, 2025 • 55 mins
The line between religious freedom and government regulation has been drawn in stark relief as Washington State enacts a law requiring clergy to report child abuse disclosed during confession. This contentious legislation strikes at the heart of Catholic sacramental practice, challenging a tradition dating back to Jesus's instruction to the apostles.
During this thoughtful exploration, our panel examines the profound implications of Senate Bill 5375, which eliminates the clergy-penitent privilege for confessions involving child abuse. Father Mario passionately explains the sacred nature of the confessional seal, where priests act "in persona Christi" – in the person of Christ. When a Catholic enters the confessional, they aren't speaking to the priest but to God through the priest, creating a sacred space that the Church has protected for two millennia.
The discussion moves beyond theoretical theology as Father Mario shares personal experiences, including a case where he was nearly arrested for maintaining confessional confidence. The panel explores what makes confession valid – genuine contrition and a purpose of amendment – while considering how this law might undermine the very purpose of confession. Can trust in this sacred space survive if penitents fear their disclosures will be reported?
Rabbi offers compelling analogies, comparing this mandate to forcing Jews to eat pork or Muslims to desecrate the Quran – requiring believers to violate core tenets of their faith. Dr. Capes provides Protestant perspectives on confession, noting differences across Christian traditions while acknowledging the universal value of confessing "one to another."
Beyond the immediate controversy, we touch on the upcoming Vatican Conclave beginning Wednesday, where cardinals will select the next pope – a process steeped in tradition and secrecy that stands in stark contrast to modern demands for transparency.
This episode challenges listeners to consider: At what point must religious practitioners say "we must obey God rather than men"? And when competing goods – child protection and religious liberty – seem to clash, how do we navigate these turbulent waters respectfully?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
There's something happening here, what it is ain't
exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun overthere Telling me I've got to
beware.
I think it's time we stopChildren.
(00:23):
What's that sound?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Everybody look what's going down Better.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
There's battle lines being drawn.
Nobody's right If everybody'swrong.
Young people speak in theirminds Are getting so much
resistance From behind everytime we stop.
Hey, what's that sound?
(00:59):
Everybody, look what's goingdown.
What a field day for the heat.
A thousand people in the streetSinging songs and carrying
(01:27):
signs.
Mostly say hooray for our side.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Welcome to A Show of Faith where professors, priests,
millennials and rabbis discusstheology, philosophy, morality,
ethics anything of interest inreligion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, we wouldlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
That's ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
(01:52):
You can hear our shows againand again by listening.
Pretty much everywhere podcastsare heard.
Our professor is David Capes,baptist minister, director of
academic programming in theLindner Theological Library.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Hola minister, director of academic programming
in the Linder TheologicalLibrary.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Hola, hola, our priest is Father Mario Arroyo,
retired pastor of St Cyril ofAlexandria, the 10,000 block of
Westheimer.
Hello, rudy Kong is ourmillennial.
He's a systems engineer, hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of St Thomas.
Howdy, howdy.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Hey, there he is.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Nikki and Miranda are our board operators and
together, Nikki and Miranda helpus sound fantastic.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
We hope so.
We know all the help we can get.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm Rabbi Stuart Federo, retired Rabbi of Shahr
Shalom in the Clear Lake area ofHouston, Texas.
I think I forgot to say that.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
You did.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I did you forgot yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I skipped, you skipped yourself.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Welcome to the show of faith.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Yeah, hey, it's great to see you, father Mario, good
to see you.
Thank you as well.
As well, we're sharingmicrophones tonight.
Yeah, you guys get over there.
I want you to guide.
I want to see you guys get cozy, okay, hi.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
I have to share a microphone with the rabbi.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
You, do you do but see, this is the test of
character.
This is to see what kind ofcharacter you are.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Well, he is a character.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
He is, he is.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, that's what the bishop has been saying for
quite a while Interfaithdialogue to a completely new
level.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
This is.
This is we're not asking.
We have chairs, so we're notasking you to sit in his lap or
anything.
We just have to.
Why are you laughing.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
Okay, you'll have to forgive me.
You'll have to forgive me Ifyou ignore him.
He'll be quiet.
You'll have to forgive mebecause I've been dealing with a
little bit of a foot injury andI've sort of been out of it for
a little while.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Are you doing better, I hope.
Yeah, I am Good, good, good.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
So who's in studio tonight?
I am Father.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I think Rudy is our show director.
Okay, so Rudy, take it awayfrom are.
Are you in guatemala now?
Uh is in guatemala okay, verygood, very good so I've been.
Speaker 6 (04:13):
I've been, uh, well, of course, there's a lot of
stuff I feel uh, happening inthe catholic world.
Um, absolutely late, right, thePope recently passed away.
They officially announced thestart of the Conclave and Father
, correct me if I'm wrong May7th, right, is the official
start.
Yeah, I think it's thisWednesday, this Wednesday,
(04:35):
uh-huh, this Wednesday, correct?
So you know.
There's, of course, theConclave movie that became super
popular, which I hated, by theway.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I prefer the Shoes of the Fisherman.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
I'll have to check that one out.
You mentioned it last week,Rabbi.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's an old one, but it's good and much more
favorable, I think, much moreloving.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Well, I mean, I have not seen.
The Conc I mean, I have notseen the conclave, I have not
seen it, but uh, I don't want tosee it because everything,
everything that I've heard fromeverybody, uh that has seen it,
says uh, especially thecardinals who have seen it, the
actual cardinals the people whoactually go into the conclave,
(05:24):
go into the conclave, say thatthat is as far as it can be from
what reality is in the middleof the conclave.
Yeah, that's what I've heard aswell.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
But they have an agenda and pressing that agenda
how they can, and there's ageneral anti-Catholic bias.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
I think I've heard a long time that of course, these
days anti-Semitism is raisingits head, but for American
culture to be anti-Catholic hasbeen always something that is
(06:05):
very acceptable If you considerall the different movies and the
way the characterizations thathave occurred of clergy,
stereotypes and all that stuffit's.
You know, I always I like tosay even if you acknowledge,
even if you acknowledge theclergy abuse and sex scandals
that occurred years and yearsago.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
And you should?
You should, yes, of course.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
But the whole point is this that that was an
infinitesimal number, percentageof the Catholic priests.
I think it was like 2%, 1% or2% of the Catholic priests.
I always like to imagine thisway Imagine that I took a
picture of your armpit.
Now, david, I'll take a pictureof your armpit.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Here we go.
I'll take a picture.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
It's a close-up of your armpit.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
And then I go around to people who have never met you
.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
And I show them your armpit and I say this is David
Capes.
Speaker 9 (07:11):
Oh, I see.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Am I correct?
Yes, technically you arecorrect.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Technically I am correct, okay, and I'm using the
armpit because the other partof the body that I normally use,
which is not admissible onradio.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Okay, okay.
They call certain places thearmpit of America.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
That's right, the armpit.
So that's exactly what'shappening is they show you the
armpit of the church and theysay, ah see, that's the church.
The problem is, everybody hasan armpit as well, as everybody
has another part of the body,and if you showed people only
(07:48):
that, you would get the David.
You are more than your armpit.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
I am, but I want you to admit on radio how beautiful
my armpit is.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
It's not as pretty as mine.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Okay, I would probably agree with that, but
anyway, that's what I'm saying.
Well, look, I mean, you couldsay the same thing about lawyers
, right?
Yes, you could say the samething about politicians.
You could say the same thingabout elementary school teachers
.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Well, but I don't think as bad.
Maybe lawyers Listen.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I work for lawyers.
I'm not going to touch that one, so.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
But uh, you know, I think, to identify a part of the
institution and see the wholeinstitution is corrupt just
because you have one part of itand everybody, everybody has
sins.
I wish I could take a pictureof all of us trying to hide the
most intimate sin that we'veever committed.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
So anyway, yeah, let's not do that.
No.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Thank God.
It's only God who can see intoour innermost souls.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, I mean, God is ultimately our judge, not each
other and such.
But Rudy had a reallyinteresting idea tonight about
our show.
Rudy, why don't you share withus, kind of and this was not a
news article that I had comeacross.
This has been a really crazyweek, so I hadn't really watched
(09:13):
the news, hadn't seen much ofit.
Tell us a little bit about thelaw that has been signed in, or
the no, it's been signed, yeahit's been signed into law in the
state of Washington.
Speaker 6 (09:27):
In the state of Washington.
So May 2nd so two days ago,essentially Washington Governor
Bob Ferguson signed Senate Bill5375 into law, into law which
mandates that clergy membersreport suspected child abuse or
(09:48):
neglect, even if suchinformation is disclosed during
sacramental confession.
So essentially what he's doingis removing what, as a Catholic,
we would consider theprivileged communication
exemption for clergy right.
(10:09):
So when you're in thatsacrament and I think, father
Mario, you could definitelyexplain this probably a lot
better than I could, but there'sa certain let's call it
privilege that's allottedbetween the person that comes to
confess and the priest Now,within that moment it's not to
(10:31):
our understanding.
It's not.
If I go to confess to FatherMario and I say, father Mario,
you know I did this and you knowI committed this crime, I stole
, I cheated on my taxes, I meanit is Father Mario, but that's
how I and how we understand itis the person of Jesus that I am
confessing and admitting mysins to in that moment, in that
(10:53):
sacrament right.
So within Catholic traditionthere's always been this
privilege that's kind ofallotted to that communication
privilege that's kind ofallotted to that communication.
So what the governor here isdoing is essentially creating
and, in his words committing toa zero-tolerance policy on abuse
(11:14):
, right?
So there's a lot of.
You know I was reading this andI was channeling my inner
Walter, you guys remember.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Oh yeah, I remember Walter, yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:28):
Walter, but essentially it's this kind of
privileged communication,especially when it comes to
children, right?
So it's particularly go ahead,Dr.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yeah, let me ask this clarifying question.
Let's say you and Mario are atStarbucks having a coffee, and
Mario's on his iPhone, as hetypically is, and you guys are
chatting and you say to him hey,I want you to know this.
Is that considered confessional?
Okay, so why don't you clarifyfor us what is meant by quote
(12:09):
the sacrament of confession?
Because that's what you'retalking about, right.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Yeah, it is a very definite context in which, for
example, I, as a priest, enterin, and both of us have to know
that you are celebrating thesacrament of reconciliation.
And so, by the way, we usethose three different words we
(12:32):
use confession, reconciliationand penance.
The sacrament of penance.
Speaker 6 (12:39):
So if you hear me say sacrament of penance, are they
synonymous?
Speaker 5 (12:42):
Yes, they're all synonymous.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Synonymous is confession, penance and
reconciliation this is in orderto confuse errant rabbis that's
right.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
So they're all, because I see the three words
okay, they're used synonymouslyin the catholic church.
Okay, so to me, the ritual, tome, to mean that you are
entering into asking me, as apriest, to represent christ in
forgiving you your sins.
Now, this is very for us, forus catholics, it's very, uh,
(13:15):
fundamental, because the momentthat jesus appears the first
time to the apostles after theresurrection, he blows on them,
which is the ruach the sendingof the.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Spirit.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
And he says to them receive the Holy Spirit.
Whose sins you shall forgive,they are forgiven.
Whose sins you shall retain,they are retained.
Now, for us, at that moment,the whole issue is they, jesus,
(13:51):
and this, may you know, chalkwith your anyway, do you
remember?
Do you remember when theparalytic is brought?
down and the paralytic wants tobe healed, Okay.
And when the paralytic is infront of Jesus, Jesus turns to
him and says your sins areforgiven.
(14:13):
Now, immediately.
The normal reaction of some ofthe Pharisees, or some of the
priests who are you to say that?
Who is this man to forgive God?
To forgive sins, sins.
Only God can do that.
Only God can do that.
And that moment Jesus says whyare your thoughts like that?
(14:33):
Tell me which is easier to sayyour sins are forgiven which you
can't prove?
Or pick up your mat and go home.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Pick up your Mat Mat.
Speaker 5 (14:46):
The paralytic's mat, the stretcher, okay, okay.
And Jesus then says but thatyou may know that the Son of man
has authority on this earth toforgive sins.
He then turns to the paralyticand says pick up your mat and go
home.
Now, the reason I say that isbecause, if that caused scandal
(15:10):
at that moment because only Godcan forgive sins and it caused
that much scandal, imagine whenJesus appears to the disciples
and gives the disciples the sameamount.
And so when a person is comingto a priest, you are as a priest
.
I am conscious that you havedone anything to me.
You do not need my forgiveness.
(15:32):
I am acting in persona christi,in the person of christ.
When I say I absolve you, thatain me, that is Christ himself
using the priest to speakdirectly to you.
Yeah, and so we'll come back.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
I confess we must go to a break.
Yes, I do confess.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
And you are forgiven for that, for breaking my
thought pattern.
This is 1070 KNTH.
We'll be right back.
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Oh yes, wait a minute, mrBozeman, wait, wait, hey, hey,
hey, mr Bozeman.
Please get going.
Mr Bozeman, don't scare me.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Oh yeah, is there a letter in your bag for me,
Please, mr Bozeman.
Letter in your bag for me,please, please.
Mr Foe, what's the name of theparty I'm at?
Oh yeah, welcome back to A Showof Faith on AM 1070.
Answer we're talking about arecent governor of Washington
state of Washington decision topass a law which kind of cancels
(18:42):
out confessional in the church.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
In the Catholic church.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Right In the Catholic church In the.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Catholic church.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Now that we're back, though, I want to know how basic
is this to the church?
How far back does confession go?
Because Mario cited the verses,but did that immediately
express itself through the samerituals?
Speaker 5 (19:08):
It is Immediately the apostles and it's right in the
Gospels.
You can't.
It's not anything that's, youknow, handed down by some kind
of oral tradition.
I received the Holy Spiritwhose sins you shall forgive,
they are forgiven.
Now, notice, notice.
It doesn't say the sins Godforgives, no, no.
(19:29):
Whose sins you forgive, theyare forgiven.
Whose sins you retain, I retain.
Now, how are you supposed toknow the difference unless you
hear the sins?
So when a person is going tothe second here, if in, in other
words, if you, unless you tellme your sins, how am I supposed
to know?
Yes, without confession, whatdo you forget?
That's right and so for us, aperson is, when you're going to
(19:53):
confession or receiving thesacrament of reconciliation or
the sacrament of penance, it'sall the same thing.
You are not talking to me, youhave not done anything to me,
you don't need my forgiveness.
When I say the sacramentalwords, I absolve you.
I always remind people thatain't me.
(20:13):
That is the person of Christusing the priest to speak
directly to you.
Okay, and it's the same thing.
I was telling Rabbi and Davidabout the priest several years
ago who was baptizing and hewould say we baptize you in the
name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.
(20:34):
When you say the word we, whoare you referring to?
Well, he was referring to thechurch, and Vatican said every
single one of the baptisms youperformed is invalid.
Why?
Because it is I baptize you andthat I is not the church, that
I is the person of Jesus.
(20:56):
This is so fundamental.
Whenever the Catholic sacramentis performed, it is performed by
the priest in what's called inpersona Christi, in the person
of Christ.
And let me tell you, whateverthat governor says, any priest
will go to jail and will go toanything, anything.
(21:16):
And let me tell you, ithappened to me.
It happened to me Really.
It happened to me years ago,when I heard a confession about
a young lady who was beingabused in school and I could not
say anything and I talked toher and she kept on coming back
to me, but I could not report it.
(21:38):
And later on I heard after thecase was resolved and she went
to the police and it said but Icouldn't say anything and the,
the, the, the police departmentwas considering my arrest
because I did not report it, butyou couldn't.
That's exactly my point so.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
So let's, let's get, let's get the law down.
What?
What does the law say?
If a, if a priest in aconfession, learns of an abuse
situation like father mario justmentioned, what is he required
to do according to?
According to the law inWashington and what is the
(22:16):
penalty?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
You mean what is the law now?
What do you?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
mean before the law, the law that was just passed.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Rudy, well, there's pretty much.
The legislation completelyremoves this exemption right and
so essentially it makes them anaccomplice to the crime.
Um, is is how I understood it.
Now I I have a very good lawyerfriend and I I can I can
(22:48):
certainly reach out to him andask him um, now, this is just
particular for Washingtoncitizens, right?
So this isn't a federal law.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Only in the state of Washington, you know it really
doesn't matter what state it is,because any priest would go to
prison before.
And what we're doing here isthe church is saying when you're
talking to God through thesacrament, you're not talking to
the priest, you're talkingthrough the priest.
You're not talking to thepriest, you're talking to God
(23:24):
through the priest.
And so I'm sorry, but everysingle priest that I know would
gladly go to jail.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Every police, every priest.
Every priest oh okay, I'm sorry, I misheard what you said, yeah
.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
We'd rather go to jail.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
One thing that I wanted to and I think, one of
the reasons that I think manypriests and you, Father, I mean.
Of course, this is a sacrament,but you've got to understand
that priests that have beenknown to break the sacramental
seal of confession can beexcommunicated.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
No, no, not they can be.
That is called anexcommunication immediate.
The moment you reveal something, you are excommunicated from
the church.
And this is what's interesting,it's a sin reserved to the pope
.
In other words, no bishop, nopriest can forgive that sin,
(24:23):
except the pope himself, and soit is the highest crime so this
is a must be, then a rare eventit is extremely rare.
I mean, uh, and not only that, Iwant to make all of our
listeners aware of this.
Not only can I not reveal, Icannot talk to you about it.
(24:44):
So, david, imagine you came tome and you went to confession
and you said something that wasgoing on in your life and you
confessed it to me, okay, and Iabsolved you.
I can't go back to you and say,hey, david, remember what you
told me in confession.
I can't even talk to you aboutit.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
So you can't say, hey , how's that problem going?
No, not at all, unless theybring it up to you in confession
.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
Unless you talk to me in confession, I cannot say a
word about it to you.
And, for example, there's casesin which people have confessed
that you know that,theoretically, I'm going to
break into the church tonightand I'm not repentant.
Well, I'm not going to forgiveyou, but neither can I act on it
.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
You can't.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
I cannot act on it.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
You can't See.
This is so elemental and basicand part of the church for so
long.
How could they think this willsurvive a supreme court?
Separation of church and stateit will.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I don't care if they think they will or not, because
it it, it will not stand it.
No, it doesn't matter, if itstands.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I mean the priests will not the priests will not.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
No, no priests will will allow that to go on well,
what I thought was ironic andnow we've got to go to break.
But what I thought was ironicis that the governor continued
to cite the fact that he wasCatholic as he made the
announcement and the fact thathe had a relative who was a
Jesuit, as if that had anybearing at all.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
It doesn't have a single bearing.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
It's not as if he said well, you know, I talked to
my Jesuit cousin and he said ohyeah, make sure you break the
covenant.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
That's like when I hear somebody who does something
wrong and then people say buthe's Jewish, so you should be
able to.
It's the same basic idea.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Right, that is what's called Kakadetoro.
Oh, is it really In Spanish?
Is that Spanish?
Is it Hispanic?
Speaker 6 (26:38):
Rudy, is that okay?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
It's a theological term, A theological term yeah,
yeah, don't try to wrap yourhead around that.
Hey, listening to a show offaith here on AM 1070, the
answer back after this AM 1070and FM 1033, the answer.
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Speaker 11 (27:53):
Liberty Action Alert brings you closer to the
current conditions of society,covering multiple topics and
biblical principles, includingprotecting the unborn, the
education of our children, faithand freedom.
Insightful guests cut throughthe chaos and confusion of the
culture of today, taking on thepublic issues that matter to you
.
Join host Greg Sells Sundays at5 pm for Liberty Action Alert
(28:17):
on AM 1070 and FM 103.3.
The Answer.
Speaker 9 (28:23):
Socialists and communists.
Is there a difference?
Not much.
After all, communism is thenext step after socialism.
Both know they can changeAmerica by dismantling or
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Join Mark Walters as he keepsyou up to date on your right to
(28:44):
own arms.
Lock and load Armed AmericanRadio, the three-hour monster
show, sunday night at 9 on AM1070.
The answer Johnny Angel.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Johnny Angel, johnny Angel, johnny Angel, johnny
Angel, you're an angel to me.
Shut up, shut up, shut up, shutup, johnny.
Speaker 11 (29:06):
Angel.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
How I love him, how I tingle when he passes by.
Every time he says hello, myheart begins to fly.
Johnny Angel, how I want him.
He's got something that I can'tresist, but he doesn't even
(29:34):
know that I exist.
I'm in heaven.
I get carried away.
I dream of him and me and howit's gonna be.
Other fellas call me up for adate, but I just sit and wait.
(29:58):
I'd rather concentrate onJohnny Angel, cause I love him
and I pray that someday he'lllove me, and together we will
see how lovely heaven will be.
And together we will see howlovely heaven will be.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
And together we will see how lovely heaven will be.
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 1070.
Answer we have a communicationfrom our past board operator,
Sharon Sharon.
Yes, she says Caca de Toro,insert sigh here.
I suppose that's okay, Aren'tyou glad I don't work there
(30:44):
anymore?
Oh wait, she says, but I don'twork here anymore.
Hi, Sharon, hey.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
Sharon, yeah, maybe.
Yeah, we'll just have to waitand see what the FCC says about
that at some point.
Hey, what are we talking about,Rudy?
What is the topic?
Speaker 6 (31:04):
So the topic is this new legislation passed by
Governor Bob Ferguson a few daysago two days ago which
essentially positions Washingtonas one of the few states.
I don't know if you guys knowthis, but this is also a similar
law in New Hampshire and WestVirginia where clergy are not
(31:26):
exempt and have mandatoryreporting requirements.
So this is the new legislationthat has passed.
So now I do want to make thisvery clear and this kind of goes
in line with go ahead and saywhat that legislation is,
because I I don't think you'veever at least in this segment,
needs to repeat yeah, go aheadand repeat what the legislation
(31:48):
is so bill 5, 3, 7, 5 clergymembers are now legally required
to report suspected child abuseor neglect, even if the
information is obtained during aconfession or other
confidential religiouscommunication.
So any win that you get of anytype of abuse, particularly to a
(32:10):
child, they are by law nowrequired to report.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
It is is is the way that reads the legislation and
and if they don't, it's apenalty, of jail time for the
priest they could, they couldface consequences.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
Um, I don't think they necessarily have all that
flushed out yet.
Okay, there's a lot of talk.
Uh, now, bishop thomas, daly,daily daly I'm not off spokane,
I'm not sure.
D-a-l-y daily, would you saythat daily um, now he he has,
(32:49):
and came out strongly opposing,stating that the clergy in his
diocese would uphold the seal ofconfession, even if it means
facing legal consequences, ofcourse.
So he reemphasized the sacrednature of the sacrament of
dependence and the church'scommitment to child protection
(33:11):
through existing protocols and azero-tolerance policy on abuse.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Well, you know, there's a famous passage in the
book of Acts, early Christianhistoriography, that describes
the fact that the followers ofJesus would say we must obey God
rather than men, so that youknow, men's laws, you know, can
be changed at the drop of a hator challenged, or thrown out in
(33:39):
court or whatever.
But God's laws aren't subjectto that rationale.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
It reminds me of the real execution of the nuns.
I can't remember the nuns.
It was during the FrenchRevolution that a group of nuns
contemplative nuns one by one,went up to the scaffold and had
(34:07):
their heads removed.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Instead of what?
Speaker 5 (34:12):
No, because the French Revolution was extremely
anti-clerical, anti-catholic,and so many, many priests, not
only the king, but I think thewhole church, was seen as too,
allied with the royalty.
And so they expropriated all theconvents and everything, all
(34:35):
the properties of the church.
They expropriated all theconvents and everything, all the
properties of the church.
And then these nuns I'd have tolook it up, but these nuns, a
whole convent full of Carmelite,cloistered Carmelite nuns.
I mean there was just silenceand they just did their work.
But they all went, one by one,praying up the scaffold and had
their heads removed.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Stuart, you were saying earlier that there's not
really a good analogy.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Well, I think there's a better analogy, but my
initial response was it would belike the government and there
have been, and there presentlyright now are governments that
would pass a law that said youcannot do kosher slaughter.
Okay, Basic elemental toJudaism for thousands of years.
(35:23):
Yeah, but that's not exactlyaccurate because you know you
work with the government.
There's a way depends on whatthe law is, but almost every
country in northern Europe hasoutlawed kosher slaughter At
some point or another, Right nowor even now.
I'm saying right this momentOkay so what's the better?
(35:44):
analogy Well to me, the betteranalogy would be to say that
it's not that we're not allowedto eat kosher, it's that we must
eat pig because it's clear.
Pig because it's clear.
It's part of our faith, goingall the way back Leviticus,
torah, the five books of Moses.
It's so endemic, it's so part,it's so basic to Judaism and to
(36:10):
Jewish life for thousands ofyears.
And in the same way, they wouldforce a priest to give up the
seal of the confession.
This would be forcing the Jews.
It would be like saying to theJewish community you have to eat
pork.
Or to say this was Mario'sanalogy you're saying to someone
(36:32):
who's Muslim, you have todesecrate the Quran.
Someone who's Muslim, you haveto desecrate the Quran.
It's forcing somebody toviolate the basic elemental
morals and ethics of their faith.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
And what's interesting here is because all
this is under the safety ofchildren.
This is kind of the overarchingkind of thing.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Oh, the safety of children demands that we do this
, which is something we allsupport, but not at the cost of
your basic, moral, ethical,foundational beliefs of a
religion.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
I mean, if it became common, let's say in the state
of Washington, father Mario,that every priest that you would
go to would in a sense call theauthorities after you left the
confessional booth, having maybeconfessed something like that,
who would go?
At that point, nobody would go.
Yeah, I mean, I think you would, just who would?
Go at that point, nobody wouldgo.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
And who.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think you would just.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
There's even a movie which is very interesting.
I can't remember the name ofthe movie.
Somebody may remember it.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Rudy will remember.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
About a priest who hears a confession of a guy who
says he's going to kill him,hears a confession of a guy who
says he's going to kill him and,uh, he continues working in his
parish because he cannot act onit.
And he the priest is a holypriest.
He says I'm going to kill youin in revenge for all the other
(38:03):
unholy priests.
And so the priest is at the endof, at the end of the movie, is
killed by this man because hecannot do anything in confession
.
Speaker 6 (38:12):
Is it Calvary?
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah, I think it is.
I think it is, but it's acurrent movie.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
And, by the way, when I was talking about the nuns,
the martyrs of Compagne, theywere 16 members of the Carmel in
France.
They were executed by theguillotine towards the end of
the Reign of Terror, at what nowwas the Place de Nation.
(38:40):
They were venerated as martyrsbecause 10 days they were
executed.
Because they refused torenounce their vows.
They refused to renounce Christ.
It's the same thing as theearly Christians being executed
by Nero or anybody like that.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
David, I can't remember your line about the
fact that you represent allProtestantism from what's the
line?
Yeah, the Queen of England touh snake right and the
appalachians, but for like injudaism, my analogy was forcing
us to eat pork.
In the catholic tradition it'sobviously the seal of the
(39:20):
confessional.
Is there something like that inprotestantism?
Speaker 4 (39:22):
there's really really not exactly.
I mean, we don't have uh.
First of all, protestantchurches are all over the place.
Yes, like you said yeah, I mean, there are some Protestants
that would say about theconfession, wait a minute.
Just why are you confessing toa priest?
Why don't you just go straightto God?
Why don't?
You just go straight to Judaism.
(39:44):
Father Mario will answer that ina minute, but there is a very
clear passage in the book ofJames, 5, verse 16.
It says confess your faults oneto another, pray for one
another that you may be healed.
So there is this admonition anearly, early admonition that's
probably, maybe not as early asthe Gospels, but very early on
(40:06):
that says that there is value inconfessing to God, obviously,
but also confessing to oneanother, because in that and
this is what Dietrich Bonhoeffersaid he said, when I meet a
brother in the faith, I'mmeeting the whole church.
(40:27):
In a sense, I'm meeting Christin that brother, and so that
person can represent Christ tome.
Now there's the distinctionbetween it doesn't have to be
necessarily a Catholic priest,that's right.
As opposed because in aProtestant world it doesn't have
to be a priest.
It can be another Christianbrother, mentor, spiritual
(40:49):
director that kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
And just remember that that does not invalidate
what Jesus did with the apostles.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
No, it doesn't.
No, I'm not saying that at all.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH and we'll be right back
1070, the answer.
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Speaker 3 (43:35):
I'm so alone, don't have nobody to call Welcome back
to A Show of Faith on AM 1070.
The Answer.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
So let's say this happens Somebody comes to you,
father Mario, this young ladysaying that she had been abused
at school.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
How young a lady.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Okay, she's a.
It really doesn't matter, let'ssay she's in elementary school.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
I have to talk to her about reporting it Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
So you cannot speak to the authorities.
You can't speak to her parents,If she's going to confession.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
If she's going to confession and mentioning
anything, mentioning anythingshe says in the sacrament most
of the time it would be theperpetrator who would confess it
, right, and I could not reportit.
But this young lady, forexample, who came to me years
ago, was being abused in schooland since she told me in the
(44:30):
sacrament I could not report it,I talked to her about coming
back and speaking with me aboutit, about reporting it and
everything like that, but Imyself could not.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Okay, let's turn it around and say the perpetrator
of this young lady's comes inand says, hey, this is what I've
done at school.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
I can't.
I encourage him to turn himselfin, I encourage him to stop, I
encourage him to do all that toseek help, but I cannot report
it, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
Rudy, I have a question for you.
Okay, because you're not apriest.
Okay, so therefore, well, mariomay have too, but therefore you
go to confession.
You do not hear confession,correct, okay.
But as I understand it,confession is not just here's
(45:25):
what I did, here's what I did,here's what, what I did, but the
priest talks to you about itexactly.
So you guys have heard me saythis before, but in my opinion,
in the same way that a computeris applied mathematics, religion
is applied psychology, and soyour, your examples, examples of
(45:46):
confession, sounds to me likecounseling.
Speaker 5 (45:53):
It is counseling.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
It is a type of counseling.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
But it's more.
It's when a person comes, it'sdone in the context of faith, of
course, that person is not.
But you're still talking tothem about it.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
That's right, you're still.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Like making them question their behavior, talking
to them about it that's right.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
We're still that's right like making them question
their behavior.
But but then then, at the veryend, when I've said everything
and we've counseled andeverything exactly, I place my
hands on their head or I lift upmy hands and I say a prayer,
but the prayer ends with and Iabsolve you.
May almighty god absolve youfrom all of your sins.
And I absolve you from all ofyour sins in the nameve you from
all of your sins, in the nameof the father and of the son and
(46:32):
of the holy spirit.
And that means everything, allyour sins, even the ones you
forgot it's like a pardon butthat pardon presidential pardon,
but that pardon haspsychological benefit it
Speaker 4 (46:45):
is still a part of, I think, the counseling or the
psychology I don't think acatholic priest, unless he or
she well he, sorry, would havethe chops would say now look, um
, let's get into some littlepsychotherapy here oh no.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
No, you would never do that.
I'm not saying you're apsychotherapist, no, but I still
think there's somethingtherapeutic.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Oh, absolutely, let me tell you.
Speaker 5 (47:08):
I've had a couple of cases in which soldiers have
come back from war.
And they've been in counselingfor a long time and they told me
that the sacrament ofreconciliation, once they began
to understand that they weretalking to God and that they
(47:30):
were being forgiven by God, didmuch more to help them than all
the counseling that they hadreceived, more than the polite
psychology, because, well, theyneeded to understand.
See, that's what the wholepoint of sacramental confession.
Very quickly, I always I, whenI prepare kids, um, I, sometimes
(47:52):
I get a, a teacher and say nowI want you to apologize to me
for breaking my iphone.
You know, they threw it againstthe wall and the teacher begins
apologizing, apologizing, andall I do is I stay silent, I do
nothing, and the teacher keepsapologizing, almost to the tears
, and I say, okay, that's it.
And all the kids that arewatching this little theater
(48:15):
thing are angry at me.
Why are they angry at me?
Because you didn't forgive her.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
You didn't say I forgave her.
Speaker 5 (48:23):
You didn't forgive her.
So then I say to the people, tothe kids okay, now I want you
to think of the sin that you'vecommitted, the worst thing
against God.
Now one, when I count to three,everybody look up and say I am
sorry God, and all the kids goI'm sorry God, and I say let's
see if he talks back to us,let's see.
(48:43):
And of course God is silent andI say see, you're angry at me
because I didn't say it's okay,you're forgiven, but you let God
pass it.
I thought I was supposed to belike God.
I, god, didn't say anything.
Why should I have to?
And then all of a sudden theygo oh.
And so I say that's when you goto the priest you're not
(49:04):
hearing the priest.
You're hearing God speakingback to you and saying not
hearing the priest.
You're hearing god speakingback to you and saying I heard
you and you, I absolve you, youare forgiven, and that's the
whole sacramental power becauseit's not counseling.
It's the power of the same.
Speaker 6 (49:18):
Yeah, really go ahead , yeah, well I just let me give
it, because there's certainconditions for a valid
confession right that we talkedabout talked about.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And there's kind of a mechanismright, like, for example, if I
come up to you and I say Irobbed a bank, okay, now the
first thing that must be met isessentially a contrition.
(49:41):
I, the person who's going to beabsolved of you, I have to be
genuinely Sorry.
How would be genuinely Sorry?
How would you say Sorry,repentant Right, I can't Exactly
right.
So what if this individual andthis is a very hypothetical
right, and I think this is kindof If you, I guess, how do you
(50:06):
perceive the genuineness of it?
And if it's not genuine, does?
it still fall under the seal ofconfession.
Speaker 5 (50:13):
Yes, it's always in the seal of confession.
The genuineness of the penitenthas nothing to do with the
responsibility of the priest.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
You can be faking it Just with the absolution, yeah
right, and my question to bothof you and to David would be
besides penitence besides Iforgot the word you used but
feeling sorry for what you'vedone.
Speaker 5 (50:40):
A firm purpose to try not to do it again.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
But what happens with the person against whom they've
sinned?
Speaker 5 (50:48):
A lot of times you have to go back to that person,
but that is not part of thesacrament.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
But you could recommend, not only recommend.
Yes, I wouldn't recommend thatyou do this.
You hurt that person.
You hurt that person.
Speaker 5 (51:02):
I'll never forget.
I had a long time ago this isfunny, but it's serious I had a
person came to me years andyears and years and years ago
and this guy was a drunkard anda womanizer and, uh, he was
confessing and and I said, areyou sorry for your sins?
(51:23):
Are you going to try to dobetter?
And he says, father, I gotta betruthful to you, I'm sorry that
they are sins, and and at thatmoment, but he still recognized
they were I.
I and I said, well, are yougoing to try?
Even though you're sorry thatthey, you want to continue me
doing them, but you can't.
And because I cannot absolveyou if you have no intention of
(51:44):
repentance, if you have nosincere, you can fall.
How many times do I have toforgive my brother?
Seven times, seven times, seventimes, because you have to have
a firm purpose that you'regoing to try to live a holy life
and not to commit that sinagain.
Speaker 8 (52:00):
And if you don't?
Speaker 5 (52:00):
have that the absolution is invalid.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
What was his response ?
Do you remember?
Speaker 5 (52:04):
Yeah, oh, I mean, he said of course, father, he was
trying to be cute, right right,yeah.
But yeah.
I mean say that again, Rudy.
Speaker 6 (52:16):
I just wanted to give the rabbi before.
I know we only have a fewminutes, but he asked earlier
about one of the cases ofsomebody breaking If there were
cases of people or priestsbreaking the confessional seal.
We don't have too many cases ofit.
(52:38):
It's quite surprising how muchit doesn't happen and you'd be
hard-pressed, I think, to find acase and what you find actually
a lot is priests being killedfor not breaking the
confessional seal.
To cross history, thought thatshe was committing infidelity
(53:00):
and she went to, uh, herconfessor and he wouldn't say
anything and had him essentiallydrowned and thrown in the river
.
Um saint, nep, I don't know howto say it nepomuk, nepomuk.
(53:21):
It doesn't matter, it's kind ofa strange name, um, but but I
think it's just it.
Just it's just kind of atestament to how of course
people are not perfect and thechurch isn't perfect.
(53:44):
Say, um, big pillars, if youwill.
That I continue to believe inthe holy catholic church is
because I am hard-pressed tofind any organization that has
stood for 2 000 years and hashad so many idiot men in them
still standing if the priestswould.
Speaker 5 (54:07):
if the clergy would have been in charge of the
church, we would have screwed itup a long time ago, a long time
ago.
Speaker 4 (54:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (54:17):
You know.
So that's the longstandingthing.
Speaker 4 (54:20):
Hey, we've got 90 seconds, sir, Less less.
Speaker 5 (54:23):
No, just this week we have a very important moment.
Speaker 4 (54:26):
Conclave starts.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
Conclave starts on Wednesday.
We'll have probably a new popeby the time.
We have a very important momentConclave starts.
Conclave starts on Wednesday.
We'll have probably a new popeby the time we have the show on
Sunday.
Speaker 4 (54:33):
You think it will be that quick?
Speaker 5 (54:34):
Oh, I think so yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:35):
Okay, any ideas?
Who?
Speaker 5 (54:37):
No, two or three days ?
No, I rejected it already.
I was invited.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
Oh well, that was nice of you, yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:42):
Yeah, so it's going to happen this week, so look for
the white smoke.
Speaker 5 (54:48):
Look for the white smoke.
Speaker 4 (54:49):
Starts on Wednesday.
Speaker 5 (54:52):
Starts on Wednesday.
That's right.
It's really tremendouslyimpressive to see it.
And the electronics.
I was watching a special onelectronics that the Catholic
Church is putting into theSistine Chapel to block any
communications in or out cellphone and anything, any
communications.
They're just going out of theirway to shut everything down so
(55:15):
that the cardinals there's.
There's no relationship betweenthe conclave movie, the
politics, and the real.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
The real the real, thing, the real thing yeah.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
So pray for the cardinals, pray for the catholic
church, because right now weare in what is called the
interregnum.
Interrupt, my friends, this.
You've been listening to theshow of faith here on knth.
Keep us in your prayers.
You're going to be in ours findus at am1070theanswercom.
Speaker 9 (55:42):
Download our apps.
Stream us 24, 7.
Knth and k2c.
There's something happening here, what it is ain't
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There's a man with a gun overthere Telling me I've got to
beware.
I think it's time we stopChildren.
(00:23):
What's that sound?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Everybody look what's going down Better.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
There's battle lines being drawn.
Nobody's right If everybody'swrong.
Young people speak in theirminds Are getting so much
resistance From behind everytime we stop.
Hey, what's that sound?
(00:59):
Everybody, look what's goingdown.
What a field day for the heat.
A thousand people in the streetSinging songs and carrying
(01:27):
signs.
Mostly say hooray for our side.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Welcome to A Show of Faith where professors, priests,
millennials and rabbis discusstheology, philosophy, morality,
ethics anything of interest inreligion.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments
regarding what we say, we wouldlove to hear from you.
Email us at ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
That's ashowoffaith1070 atgmailcom.
(01:52):
You can hear our shows againand again by listening.
Pretty much everywhere podcastsare heard.
Our professor is David Capes,baptist minister, director of
academic programming in theLindner Theological Library.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Hola minister, director of academic programming
in the Linder TheologicalLibrary.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Hola, hola, our priest is Father Mario Arroyo,
retired pastor of St Cyril ofAlexandria, the 10,000 block of
Westheimer.
Hello, rudy Kong is ourmillennial.
He's a systems engineer, hashis master's degree in theology
from the University of St Thomas.
Howdy, howdy.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Hey, there he is.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Nikki and Miranda are our board operators and
together, Nikki and Miranda helpus sound fantastic.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
We hope so.
We know all the help we can get.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm Rabbi Stuart Federo, retired Rabbi of Shahr
Shalom in the Clear Lake area ofHouston, Texas.
I think I forgot to say that.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
You did.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I did you forgot yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I skipped, you skipped yourself.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Welcome to the show of faith.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Yeah, hey, it's great to see you, father Mario, good
to see you.
Thank you as well.
As well, we're sharingmicrophones tonight.
Yeah, you guys get over there.
I want you to guide.
I want to see you guys get cozy, okay, hi.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
I have to share a microphone with the rabbi.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
You, do you do but see, this is the test of
character.
This is to see what kind ofcharacter you are.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Well, he is a character.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
He is, he is.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, that's what the bishop has been saying for
quite a while Interfaithdialogue to a completely new
level.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
This is.
This is we're not asking.
We have chairs, so we're notasking you to sit in his lap or
anything.
We just have to.
Why are you laughing.
Speaker 5 (03:32):
Okay, you'll have to forgive me.
You'll have to forgive me Ifyou ignore him.
He'll be quiet.
You'll have to forgive mebecause I've been dealing with a
little bit of a foot injury andI've sort of been out of it for
a little while.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Are you doing better, I hope.
Yeah, I am Good, good, good.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
So who's in studio tonight?
I am Father.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I think Rudy is our show director.
Okay, so Rudy, take it awayfrom are.
Are you in guatemala now?
Uh is in guatemala okay, verygood, very good so I've been.
Speaker 6 (04:13):
I've been, uh, well, of course, there's a lot of
stuff I feel uh, happening inthe catholic world.
Um, absolutely late, right, thePope recently passed away.
They officially announced thestart of the Conclave and Father
, correct me if I'm wrong May7th, right, is the official
start.
Yeah, I think it's thisWednesday, this Wednesday,
(04:35):
uh-huh, this Wednesday, correct?
So you know.
There's, of course, theConclave movie that became super
popular, which I hated, by theway.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I prefer the Shoes of the Fisherman.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
I'll have to check that one out.
You mentioned it last week,Rabbi.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's an old one, but it's good and much more
favorable, I think, much moreloving.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Well, I mean, I have not seen.
The Conc I mean, I have notseen the conclave, I have not
seen it, but uh, I don't want tosee it because everything,
everything that I've heard fromeverybody, uh that has seen it,
says uh, especially thecardinals who have seen it, the
actual cardinals the people whoactually go into the conclave,
(05:24):
go into the conclave, say thatthat is as far as it can be from
what reality is in the middleof the conclave.
Yeah, that's what I've heard aswell.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
But they have an agenda and pressing that agenda
how they can, and there's ageneral anti-Catholic bias.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
I think I've heard a long time that of course, these
days anti-Semitism is raisingits head, but for American
culture to be anti-Catholic hasbeen always something that is
(06:05):
very acceptable If you considerall the different movies and the
way the characterizations thathave occurred of clergy,
stereotypes and all that stuffit's.
You know, I always I like tosay even if you acknowledge,
even if you acknowledge theclergy abuse and sex scandals
that occurred years and yearsago.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
And you should?
You should, yes, of course.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
But the whole point is this that that was an
infinitesimal number, percentageof the Catholic priests.
I think it was like 2%, 1% or2% of the Catholic priests.
I always like to imagine thisway Imagine that I took a
picture of your armpit.
Now, david, I'll take a pictureof your armpit.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Here we go.
I'll take a picture.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
It's a close-up of your armpit.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
And then I go around to people who have never met you
.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
And I show them your armpit and I say this is David
Capes.
Speaker 9 (07:11):
Oh, I see.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Am I correct?
Yes, technically you arecorrect.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Technically I am correct, okay, and I'm using the
armpit because the other partof the body that I normally use,
which is not admissible onradio.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Okay, okay.
They call certain places thearmpit of America.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
That's right, the armpit.
So that's exactly what'shappening is they show you the
armpit of the church and theysay, ah see, that's the church.
The problem is, everybody hasan armpit as well, as everybody
has another part of the body,and if you showed people only
(07:48):
that, you would get the David.
You are more than your armpit.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
I am, but I want you to admit on radio how beautiful
my armpit is.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
It's not as pretty as mine.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Okay, I would probably agree with that, but
anyway, that's what I'm saying.
Well, look, I mean, you couldsay the same thing about lawyers
, right?
Yes, you could say the samething about politicians.
You could say the same thingabout elementary school teachers
.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Well, but I don't think as bad.
Maybe lawyers Listen.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
I work for lawyers.
I'm not going to touch that one, so.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
But uh, you know, I think, to identify a part of the
institution and see the wholeinstitution is corrupt just
because you have one part of itand everybody, everybody has
sins.
I wish I could take a pictureof all of us trying to hide the
most intimate sin that we'veever committed.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
So anyway, yeah, let's not do that.
No.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Thank God.
It's only God who can see intoour innermost souls.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, I mean, God is ultimately our judge, not each
other and such.
But Rudy had a reallyinteresting idea tonight about
our show.
Rudy, why don't you share withus, kind of and this was not a
news article that I had comeacross.
This has been a really crazyweek, so I hadn't really watched
(09:13):
the news, hadn't seen much ofit.
Tell us a little bit about thelaw that has been signed in, or
the no, it's been signed, yeahit's been signed into law in the
state of Washington.
Speaker 6 (09:27):
In the state of Washington.
So May 2nd so two days ago,essentially Washington Governor
Bob Ferguson signed Senate Bill5375 into law, into law which
mandates that clergy membersreport suspected child abuse or
(09:48):
neglect, even if suchinformation is disclosed during
sacramental confession.
So essentially what he's doingis removing what, as a Catholic,
we would consider theprivileged communication
exemption for clergy right.
(10:09):
So when you're in thatsacrament and I think, father
Mario, you could definitelyexplain this probably a lot
better than I could, but there'sa certain let's call it
privilege that's allottedbetween the person that comes to
confess and the priest Now,within that moment it's not to
(10:31):
our understanding.
It's not.
If I go to confess to FatherMario and I say, father Mario,
you know I did this and you knowI committed this crime, I stole
, I cheated on my taxes, I meanit is Father Mario, but that's
how I and how we understand itis the person of Jesus that I am
confessing and admitting mysins to in that moment, in that
(10:53):
sacrament right.
So within Catholic traditionthere's always been this
privilege that's kind ofallotted to that communication
privilege that's kind ofallotted to that communication.
So what the governor here isdoing is essentially creating
and, in his words committing toa zero-tolerance policy on abuse
(11:14):
, right?
So there's a lot of.
You know I was reading this andI was channeling my inner
Walter, you guys remember.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Oh yeah, I remember Walter, yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:28):
Walter, but essentially it's this kind of
privileged communication,especially when it comes to
children, right?
So it's particularly go ahead,Dr.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yeah, let me ask this clarifying question.
Let's say you and Mario are atStarbucks having a coffee, and
Mario's on his iPhone, as hetypically is, and you guys are
chatting and you say to him hey,I want you to know this.
Is that considered confessional?
Okay, so why don't you clarifyfor us what is meant by quote
(12:09):
the sacrament of confession?
Because that's what you'retalking about, right.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Yeah, it is a very definite context in which, for
example, I, as a priest, enterin, and both of us have to know
that you are celebrating thesacrament of reconciliation.
And so, by the way, we usethose three different words we
(12:32):
use confession, reconciliationand penance.
The sacrament of penance.
Speaker 6 (12:39):
So if you hear me say sacrament of penance, are they
synonymous?
Speaker 5 (12:42):
Yes, they're all synonymous.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Synonymous is confession, penance and
reconciliation this is in orderto confuse errant rabbis that's
right.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
So they're all, because I see the three words
okay, they're used synonymouslyin the catholic church.
Okay, so to me, the ritual, tome, to mean that you are
entering into asking me, as apriest, to represent christ in
forgiving you your sins.
Now, this is very for us, forus catholics, it's very, uh,
(13:15):
fundamental, because the momentthat jesus appears the first
time to the apostles after theresurrection, he blows on them,
which is the ruach the sendingof the.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Spirit.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
And he says to them receive the Holy Spirit.
Whose sins you shall forgive,they are forgiven.
Whose sins you shall retain,they are retained.
Now, for us, at that moment,the whole issue is they, jesus,
(13:51):
and this, may you know, chalkwith your anyway, do you
remember?
Do you remember when theparalytic is brought?
down and the paralytic wants tobe healed, Okay.
And when the paralytic is infront of Jesus, Jesus turns to
him and says your sins areforgiven.
(14:13):
Now, immediately.
The normal reaction of some ofthe Pharisees, or some of the
priests who are you to say that?
Who is this man to forgive God?
To forgive sins, sins.
Only God can do that.
Only God can do that.
And that moment Jesus says whyare your thoughts like that?
(14:33):
Tell me which is easier to sayyour sins are forgiven which you
can't prove?
Or pick up your mat and go home.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Pick up your Mat Mat.
Speaker 5 (14:46):
The paralytic's mat, the stretcher, okay, okay.
And Jesus then says but thatyou may know that the Son of man
has authority on this earth toforgive sins.
He then turns to the paralyticand says pick up your mat and go
home.
Now, the reason I say that isbecause, if that caused scandal
(15:10):
at that moment because only Godcan forgive sins and it caused
that much scandal, imagine whenJesus appears to the disciples
and gives the disciples the sameamount.
And so when a person is comingto a priest, you are as a priest
.
I am conscious that you havedone anything to me.
You do not need my forgiveness.
(15:32):
I am acting in persona christi,in the person of christ.
When I say I absolve you, thatain me, that is Christ himself
using the priest to speakdirectly to you.
Yeah, and so we'll come back.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
I confess we must go to a break.
Yes, I do confess.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
And you are forgiven for that, for breaking my
thought pattern.
This is 1070 KNTH.
We'll be right back.
Speaker 12 (16:06):
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You can hear this today atpreggertopiacom.
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This is AM 1070, the AnswerWait.
Oh yes, wait a minute, mrBozeman, wait, wait, hey, hey,
hey, mr Bozeman.
Please get going.
Mr Bozeman, don't scare me.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Oh yeah, is there a letter in your bag for me,
Please, mr Bozeman.
Letter in your bag for me,please, please.
Mr Foe, what's the name of theparty I'm at?
Oh yeah, welcome back to A Showof Faith on AM 1070.
Answer we're talking about arecent governor of Washington
state of Washington decision topass a law which kind of cancels
(18:42):
out confessional in the church.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
In the Catholic church.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Right In the Catholic church In the.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Catholic church.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Now that we're back, though, I want to know how basic
is this to the church?
How far back does confession go?
Because Mario cited the verses,but did that immediately
express itself through the samerituals?
Speaker 5 (19:08):
It is Immediately the apostles and it's right in the
Gospels.
You can't.
It's not anything that's, youknow, handed down by some kind
of oral tradition.
I received the Holy Spiritwhose sins you shall forgive,
they are forgiven.
Now, notice, notice.
It doesn't say the sins Godforgives, no, no.
(19:29):
Whose sins you forgive, theyare forgiven.
Whose sins you retain, I retain.
Now, how are you supposed toknow the difference unless you
hear the sins?
So when a person is going tothe second here, if in, in other
words, if you, unless you tellme your sins, how am I supposed
to know?
Yes, without confession, whatdo you forget?
That's right and so for us, aperson is, when you're going to
(19:53):
confession or receiving thesacrament of reconciliation or
the sacrament of penance, it'sall the same thing.
You are not talking to me, youhave not done anything to me,
you don't need my forgiveness.
When I say the sacramentalwords, I absolve you.
I always remind people thatain't me.
(20:13):
That is the person of Christusing the priest to speak
directly to you.
Okay, and it's the same thing.
I was telling Rabbi and Davidabout the priest several years
ago who was baptizing and hewould say we baptize you in the
name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.
(20:34):
When you say the word we, whoare you referring to?
Well, he was referring to thechurch, and Vatican said every
single one of the baptisms youperformed is invalid.
Why?
Because it is I baptize you andthat I is not the church, that
I is the person of Jesus.
(20:56):
This is so fundamental.
Whenever the Catholic sacramentis performed, it is performed by
the priest in what's called inpersona Christi, in the person
of Christ.
And let me tell you, whateverthat governor says, any priest
will go to jail and will go toanything, anything.
(21:16):
And let me tell you, ithappened to me.
It happened to me Really.
It happened to me years ago,when I heard a confession about
a young lady who was beingabused in school and I could not
say anything and I talked toher and she kept on coming back
to me, but I could not report it.
(21:38):
And later on I heard after thecase was resolved and she went
to the police and it said but Icouldn't say anything and the,
the, the, the police departmentwas considering my arrest
because I did not report it, butyou couldn't.
That's exactly my point so.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
So let's, let's get, let's get the law down.
What?
What does the law say?
If a, if a priest in aconfession, learns of an abuse
situation like father mario justmentioned, what is he required
to do according to?
According to the law inWashington and what is the
(22:16):
penalty?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
You mean what is the law now?
What do you?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
mean before the law, the law that was just passed.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Rudy, well, there's pretty much.
The legislation completelyremoves this exemption right and
so essentially it makes them anaccomplice to the crime.
Um, is is how I understood it.
Now I I have a very good lawyerfriend and I I can I can
(22:48):
certainly reach out to him andask him um, now, this is just
particular for Washingtoncitizens, right?
So this isn't a federal law.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Only in the state of Washington, you know it really
doesn't matter what state it is,because any priest would go to
prison before.
And what we're doing here isthe church is saying when you're
talking to God through thesacrament, you're not talking to
the priest, you're talkingthrough the priest.
You're not talking to thepriest, you're talking to God
(23:24):
through the priest.
And so I'm sorry, but everysingle priest that I know would
gladly go to jail.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Every police, every priest.
Every priest oh okay, I'm sorry, I misheard what you said, yeah
.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
We'd rather go to jail.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
One thing that I wanted to and I think, one of
the reasons that I think manypriests and you, Father, I mean.
Of course, this is a sacrament,but you've got to understand
that priests that have beenknown to break the sacramental
seal of confession can beexcommunicated.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
No, no, not they can be.
That is called anexcommunication immediate.
The moment you reveal something, you are excommunicated from
the church.
And this is what's interesting,it's a sin reserved to the pope
.
In other words, no bishop, nopriest can forgive that sin,
(24:23):
except the pope himself, and soit is the highest crime so this
is a must be, then a rare eventit is extremely rare.
I mean, uh, and not only that, Iwant to make all of our
listeners aware of this.
Not only can I not reveal, Icannot talk to you about it.
(24:44):
So, david, imagine you came tome and you went to confession
and you said something that wasgoing on in your life and you
confessed it to me, okay, and Iabsolved you.
I can't go back to you and say,hey, david, remember what you
told me in confession.
I can't even talk to you aboutit.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
So you can't say, hey , how's that problem going?
No, not at all, unless theybring it up to you in confession
.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
Unless you talk to me in confession, I cannot say a
word about it to you.
And, for example, there's casesin which people have confessed
that you know that,theoretically, I'm going to
break into the church tonightand I'm not repentant.
Well, I'm not going to forgiveyou, but neither can I act on it
.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
You can't.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
I cannot act on it.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
You can't See.
This is so elemental and basicand part of the church for so
long.
How could they think this willsurvive a supreme court?
Separation of church and stateit will.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I don't care if they think they will or not, because
it it, it will not stand it.
No, it doesn't matter, if itstands.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I mean the priests will not the priests will not.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
No, no priests will will allow that to go on well,
what I thought was ironic andnow we've got to go to break.
But what I thought was ironicis that the governor continued
to cite the fact that he wasCatholic as he made the
announcement and the fact thathe had a relative who was a
Jesuit, as if that had anybearing at all.
Speaker 5 (26:13):
It doesn't have a single bearing.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
It's not as if he said well, you know, I talked to
my Jesuit cousin and he said ohyeah, make sure you break the
covenant.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
That's like when I hear somebody who does something
wrong and then people say buthe's Jewish, so you should be
able to.
It's the same basic idea.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Right, that is what's called Kakadetoro.
Oh, is it really In Spanish?
Is that Spanish?
Is it Hispanic?
Speaker 6 (26:38):
Rudy, is that okay?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
It's a theological term, A theological term yeah,
yeah, don't try to wrap yourhead around that.
Hey, listening to a show offaith here on AM 1070, the
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Angel, you're an angel to me.
Shut up, shut up, shut up, shutup, johnny.
Speaker 11 (29:06):
Angel.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
How I love him, how I tingle when he passes by.
Every time he says hello, myheart begins to fly.
Johnny Angel, how I want him.
He's got something that I can'tresist, but he doesn't even
(29:34):
know that I exist.
I'm in heaven.
I get carried away.
I dream of him and me and howit's gonna be.
Other fellas call me up for adate, but I just sit and wait.
(29:58):
I'd rather concentrate onJohnny Angel, cause I love him
and I pray that someday he'lllove me, and together we will
see how lovely heaven will be.
And together we will see howlovely heaven will be.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
And together we will see how lovely heaven will be.
Welcome back to A Show of Faithon AM 1070.
Answer we have a communicationfrom our past board operator,
Sharon Sharon.
Yes, she says Caca de Toro,insert sigh here.
I suppose that's okay, Aren'tyou glad I don't work there
(30:44):
anymore?
Oh wait, she says, but I don'twork here anymore.
Hi, Sharon, hey.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
Sharon, yeah, maybe.
Yeah, we'll just have to waitand see what the FCC says about
that at some point.
Hey, what are we talking about,Rudy?
What is the topic?
Speaker 6 (31:04):
So the topic is this new legislation passed by
Governor Bob Ferguson a few daysago two days ago which
essentially positions Washingtonas one of the few states.
I don't know if you guys knowthis, but this is also a similar
law in New Hampshire and WestVirginia where clergy are not
(31:26):
exempt and have mandatoryreporting requirements.
So this is the new legislationthat has passed.
So now I do want to make thisvery clear and this kind of goes
in line with go ahead and saywhat that legislation is,
because I I don't think you'veever at least in this segment,
needs to repeat yeah, go aheadand repeat what the legislation
(31:48):
is so bill 5, 3, 7, 5 clergymembers are now legally required
to report suspected child abuseor neglect, even if the
information is obtained during aconfession or other
confidential religiouscommunication.
So any win that you get of anytype of abuse, particularly to a
(32:10):
child, they are by law nowrequired to report.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
It is is is the way that reads the legislation and
and if they don't, it's apenalty, of jail time for the
priest they could, they couldface consequences.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
Um, I don't think they necessarily have all that
flushed out yet.
Okay, there's a lot of talk.
Uh, now, bishop thomas, daly,daily daly I'm not off spokane,
I'm not sure.
D-a-l-y daily, would you saythat daily um, now he he has,
(32:49):
and came out strongly opposing,stating that the clergy in his
diocese would uphold the seal ofconfession, even if it means
facing legal consequences, ofcourse.
So he reemphasized the sacrednature of the sacrament of
dependence and the church'scommitment to child protection
(33:11):
through existing protocols and azero-tolerance policy on abuse.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Well, you know, there's a famous passage in the
book of Acts, early Christianhistoriography, that describes
the fact that the followers ofJesus would say we must obey God
rather than men, so that youknow, men's laws, you know, can
be changed at the drop of a hator challenged, or thrown out in
(33:39):
court or whatever.
But God's laws aren't subjectto that rationale.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
It reminds me of the real execution of the nuns.
I can't remember the nuns.
It was during the FrenchRevolution that a group of nuns
contemplative nuns one by one,went up to the scaffold and had
(34:07):
their heads removed.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Instead of what?
Speaker 5 (34:12):
No, because the French Revolution was extremely
anti-clerical, anti-catholic,and so many, many priests, not
only the king, but I think thewhole church, was seen as too,
allied with the royalty.
And so they expropriated all theconvents and everything, all
(34:35):
the properties of the church.
They expropriated all theconvents and everything, all the
properties of the church.
And then these nuns I'd have tolook it up, but these nuns, a
whole convent full of Carmelite,cloistered Carmelite nuns.
I mean there was just silenceand they just did their work.
But they all went, one by one,praying up the scaffold and had
their heads removed.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
Stuart, you were saying earlier that there's not
really a good analogy.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Well, I think there's a better analogy, but my
initial response was it would belike the government and there
have been, and there presentlyright now are governments that
would pass a law that said youcannot do kosher slaughter.
Okay, Basic elemental toJudaism for thousands of years.
(35:23):
Yeah, but that's not exactlyaccurate because you know you
work with the government.
There's a way depends on whatthe law is, but almost every
country in northern Europe hasoutlawed kosher slaughter At
some point or another, Right nowor even now.
I'm saying right this momentOkay so what's the better?
(35:44):
analogy Well to me, the betteranalogy would be to say that
it's not that we're not allowedto eat kosher, it's that we must
eat pig because it's clear.
Pig because it's clear.
It's part of our faith, goingall the way back Leviticus,
torah, the five books of Moses.
It's so endemic, it's so part,it's so basic to Judaism and to
(36:10):
Jewish life for thousands ofyears.
And in the same way, they wouldforce a priest to give up the
seal of the confession.
This would be forcing the Jews.
It would be like saying to theJewish community you have to eat
pork.
Or to say this was Mario'sanalogy you're saying to someone
(36:32):
who's Muslim, you have todesecrate the Quran.
Someone who's Muslim, you haveto desecrate the Quran.
It's forcing somebody toviolate the basic elemental
morals and ethics of their faith.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
And what's interesting here is because all
this is under the safety ofchildren.
This is kind of the overarchingkind of thing.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Oh, the safety of children demands that we do this
, which is something we allsupport, but not at the cost of
your basic, moral, ethical,foundational beliefs of a
religion.
Speaker 4 (37:08):
I mean, if it became common, let's say in the state
of Washington, father Mario,that every priest that you would
go to would in a sense call theauthorities after you left the
confessional booth, having maybeconfessed something like that,
who would go?
At that point, nobody would go.
Yeah, I mean, I think you would, just who would?
Go at that point, nobody wouldgo.
Speaker 5 (37:29):
And who.
Speaker 4 (37:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think you would just.
Speaker 5 (37:32):
There's even a movie which is very interesting.
I can't remember the name ofthe movie.
Somebody may remember it.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Rudy will remember.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
About a priest who hears a confession of a guy who
says he's going to kill him,hears a confession of a guy who
says he's going to kill him and,uh, he continues working in his
parish because he cannot act onit.
And he the priest is a holypriest.
He says I'm going to kill youin in revenge for all the other
(38:03):
unholy priests.
And so the priest is at the endof, at the end of the movie, is
killed by this man because hecannot do anything in confession
.
Speaker 6 (38:12):
Is it Calvary?
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah, I think it is.
I think it is, but it's acurrent movie.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
And, by the way, when I was talking about the nuns,
the martyrs of Compagne, theywere 16 members of the Carmel in
France.
They were executed by theguillotine towards the end of
the Reign of Terror, at what nowwas the Place de Nation.
(38:40):
They were venerated as martyrsbecause 10 days they were
executed.
Because they refused torenounce their vows.
They refused to renounce Christ.
It's the same thing as theearly Christians being executed
by Nero or anybody like that.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
David, I can't remember your line about the
fact that you represent allProtestantism from what's the
line?
Yeah, the Queen of England touh snake right and the
appalachians, but for like injudaism, my analogy was forcing
us to eat pork.
In the catholic tradition it'sobviously the seal of the
(39:20):
confessional.
Is there something like that inprotestantism?
Speaker 4 (39:22):
there's really really not exactly.
I mean, we don't have uh.
First of all, protestantchurches are all over the place.
Yes, like you said yeah, I mean, there are some Protestants
that would say about theconfession, wait a minute.
Just why are you confessing toa priest?
Why don't you just go straightto God?
Why don't?
You just go straight to Judaism.
(39:44):
Father Mario will answer that ina minute, but there is a very
clear passage in the book ofJames, 5, verse 16.
It says confess your faults oneto another, pray for one
another that you may be healed.
So there is this admonition anearly, early admonition that's
probably, maybe not as early asthe Gospels, but very early on
(40:06):
that says that there is value inconfessing to God, obviously,
but also confessing to oneanother, because in that and
this is what Dietrich Bonhoeffersaid he said, when I meet a
brother in the faith, I'mmeeting the whole church.
(40:27):
In a sense, I'm meeting Christin that brother, and so that
person can represent Christ tome.
Now there's the distinctionbetween it doesn't have to be
necessarily a Catholic priest,that's right.
As opposed because in aProtestant world it doesn't have
to be a priest.
It can be another Christianbrother, mentor, spiritual
(40:49):
director that kind of thing.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
And just remember that that does not invalidate
what Jesus did with the apostles.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
No, it doesn't.
No, I'm not saying that at all.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH and we'll be right back
1070, the answer.
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Speaker 9 (42:34):
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(42:59):
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Speaker 2 (43:01):
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Speaker 3 (43:35):
I'm so alone, don't have nobody to call Welcome back
to A Show of Faith on AM 1070.
The Answer.
Speaker 4 (43:41):
So let's say this happens Somebody comes to you,
father Mario, this young ladysaying that she had been abused
at school.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
How young a lady.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Okay, she's a.
It really doesn't matter, let'ssay she's in elementary school.
Speaker 5 (43:58):
I have to talk to her about reporting it Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
So you cannot speak to the authorities.
You can't speak to her parents,If she's going to confession.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
If she's going to confession and mentioning
anything, mentioning anythingshe says in the sacrament most
of the time it would be theperpetrator who would confess it
, right, and I could not reportit.
But this young lady, forexample, who came to me years
ago, was being abused in schooland since she told me in the
(44:30):
sacrament I could not report it,I talked to her about coming
back and speaking with me aboutit, about reporting it and
everything like that, but Imyself could not.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Okay, let's turn it around and say the perpetrator
of this young lady's comes inand says, hey, this is what I've
done at school.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
I can't.
I encourage him to turn himselfin, I encourage him to stop, I
encourage him to do all that toseek help, but I cannot report
it, okay.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
Rudy, I have a question for you.
Okay, because you're not apriest.
Okay, so therefore, well, mariomay have too, but therefore you
go to confession.
You do not hear confession,correct, okay.
But as I understand it,confession is not just here's
(45:25):
what I did, here's what I did,here's what, what I did, but the
priest talks to you about itexactly.
So you guys have heard me saythis before, but in my opinion,
in the same way that a computeris applied mathematics, religion
is applied psychology, and soyour, your examples, examples of
(45:46):
confession, sounds to me likecounseling.
Speaker 5 (45:53):
It is counseling.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
It is a type of counseling.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
But it's more.
It's when a person comes, it'sdone in the context of faith, of
course, that person is not.
But you're still talking tothem about it.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
That's right, you're still.
Speaker 5 (46:06):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Like making them question their behavior, talking
to them about it that's right.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
We're still that's right like making them question
their behavior.
But but then then, at the veryend, when I've said everything
and we've counseled andeverything exactly, I place my
hands on their head or I lift upmy hands and I say a prayer,
but the prayer ends with and Iabsolve you.
May almighty god absolve youfrom all of your sins.
And I absolve you from all ofyour sins in the nameve you from
all of your sins, in the nameof the father and of the son and
(46:32):
of the holy spirit.
And that means everything, allyour sins, even the ones you
forgot it's like a pardon butthat pardon presidential pardon,
but that pardon haspsychological benefit it
Speaker 4 (46:45):
is still a part of, I think, the counseling or the
psychology I don't think acatholic priest, unless he or
she well he, sorry, would havethe chops would say now look, um
, let's get into some littlepsychotherapy here oh no.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
No, you would never do that.
I'm not saying you're apsychotherapist, no, but I still
think there's somethingtherapeutic.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Oh, absolutely, let me tell you.
Speaker 5 (47:08):
I've had a couple of cases in which soldiers have
come back from war.
And they've been in counselingfor a long time and they told me
that the sacrament ofreconciliation, once they began
to understand that they weretalking to God and that they
(47:30):
were being forgiven by God, didmuch more to help them than all
the counseling that they hadreceived, more than the polite
psychology, because, well, theyneeded to understand.
See, that's what the wholepoint of sacramental confession.
Very quickly, I always I, whenI prepare kids, um, I, sometimes
(47:52):
I get a, a teacher and say nowI want you to apologize to me
for breaking my iphone.
You know, they threw it againstthe wall and the teacher begins
apologizing, apologizing, andall I do is I stay silent, I do
nothing, and the teacher keepsapologizing, almost to the tears
, and I say, okay, that's it.
And all the kids that arewatching this little theater
(48:15):
thing are angry at me.
Why are they angry at me?
Because you didn't forgive her.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
You didn't say I forgave her.
Speaker 5 (48:23):
You didn't forgive her.
So then I say to the people, tothe kids okay, now I want you
to think of the sin that you'vecommitted, the worst thing
against God.
Now one, when I count to three,everybody look up and say I am
sorry God, and all the kids goI'm sorry God, and I say let's
see if he talks back to us,let's see.
(48:43):
And of course God is silent andI say see, you're angry at me
because I didn't say it's okay,you're forgiven, but you let God
pass it.
I thought I was supposed to belike God.
I, god, didn't say anything.
Why should I have to?
And then all of a sudden theygo oh.
And so I say that's when you goto the priest you're not
(49:04):
hearing the priest.
You're hearing God speakingback to you and saying not
hearing the priest.
You're hearing god speakingback to you and saying I heard
you and you, I absolve you, youare forgiven, and that's the
whole sacramental power becauseit's not counseling.
It's the power of the same.
Speaker 6 (49:18):
Yeah, really go ahead , yeah, well I just let me give
it, because there's certainconditions for a valid
confession right that we talkedabout talked about.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And there's kind of a mechanismright, like, for example, if I
come up to you and I say Irobbed a bank, okay, now the
first thing that must be met isessentially a contrition.
(49:41):
I, the person who's going to beabsolved of you, I have to be
genuinely Sorry.
How would be genuinely Sorry?
How would you say Sorry,repentant Right, I can't Exactly
right.
So what if this individual andthis is a very hypothetical
right, and I think this is kindof If you, I guess, how do you
(50:06):
perceive the genuineness of it?
And if it's not genuine, does?
it still fall under the seal ofconfession.
Speaker 5 (50:13):
Yes, it's always in the seal of confession.
The genuineness of the penitenthas nothing to do with the
responsibility of the priest.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
You can be faking it Just with the absolution, yeah
right, and my question to bothof you and to David would be
besides penitence besides Iforgot the word you used but
feeling sorry for what you'vedone.
Speaker 5 (50:40):
A firm purpose to try not to do it again.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
But what happens with the person against whom they've
sinned?
Speaker 5 (50:48):
A lot of times you have to go back to that person,
but that is not part of thesacrament.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
But you could recommend, not only recommend.
Yes, I wouldn't recommend thatyou do this.
You hurt that person.
You hurt that person.
Speaker 5 (51:02):
I'll never forget.
I had a long time ago this isfunny, but it's serious I had a
person came to me years andyears and years and years ago
and this guy was a drunkard anda womanizer and, uh, he was
confessing and and I said, areyou sorry for your sins?
(51:23):
Are you going to try to dobetter?
And he says, father, I gotta betruthful to you, I'm sorry that
they are sins, and and at thatmoment, but he still recognized
they were I.
I and I said, well, are yougoing to try?
Even though you're sorry thatthey, you want to continue me
doing them, but you can't.
And because I cannot absolveyou if you have no intention of
(51:44):
repentance, if you have nosincere, you can fall.
How many times do I have toforgive my brother?
Seven times, seven times, seventimes, because you have to have
a firm purpose that you'regoing to try to live a holy life
and not to commit that sinagain.
Speaker 8 (52:00):
And if you don't?
Speaker 5 (52:00):
have that the absolution is invalid.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
What was his response ?
Do you remember?
Speaker 5 (52:04):
Yeah, oh, I mean, he said of course, father, he was
trying to be cute, right right,yeah.
But yeah.
I mean say that again, Rudy.
Speaker 6 (52:16):
I just wanted to give the rabbi before.
I know we only have a fewminutes, but he asked earlier
about one of the cases ofsomebody breaking If there were
cases of people or priestsbreaking the confessional seal.
We don't have too many cases ofit.
(52:38):
It's quite surprising how muchit doesn't happen and you'd be
hard-pressed, I think, to find acase and what you find actually
a lot is priests being killedfor not breaking the
confessional seal.
To cross history, thought thatshe was committing infidelity
(53:00):
and she went to, uh, herconfessor and he wouldn't say
anything and had him essentiallydrowned and thrown in the river
.
Um saint, nep, I don't know howto say it nepomuk, nepomuk.
(53:21):
It doesn't matter, it's kind ofa strange name, um, but but I
think it's just it.
Just it's just kind of atestament to how of course
people are not perfect and thechurch isn't perfect.
(53:44):
Say, um, big pillars, if youwill.
That I continue to believe inthe holy catholic church is
because I am hard-pressed tofind any organization that has
stood for 2 000 years and hashad so many idiot men in them
still standing if the priestswould.
Speaker 5 (54:07):
if the clergy would have been in charge of the
church, we would have screwed itup a long time ago, a long time
ago.
Speaker 4 (54:15):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (54:17):
You know.
So that's the longstandingthing.
Speaker 4 (54:20):
Hey, we've got 90 seconds, sir, Less less.
Speaker 5 (54:23):
No, just this week we have a very important moment.
Speaker 4 (54:26):
Conclave starts.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
Conclave starts on Wednesday.
We'll have probably a new popeby the time.
We have a very important momentConclave starts.
Conclave starts on Wednesday.
We'll have probably a new popeby the time we have the show on
Sunday.
Speaker 4 (54:33):
You think it will be that quick?
Speaker 5 (54:34):
Oh, I think so yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:35):
Okay, any ideas?
Who?
Speaker 5 (54:37):
No, two or three days ?
No, I rejected it already.
I was invited.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
Oh well, that was nice of you, yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:42):
Yeah, so it's going to happen this week, so look for
the white smoke.
Speaker 5 (54:48):
Look for the white smoke.
Speaker 4 (54:49):
Starts on Wednesday.
Speaker 5 (54:52):
Starts on Wednesday.
That's right.
It's really tremendouslyimpressive to see it.
And the electronics.
I was watching a special onelectronics that the Catholic
Church is putting into theSistine Chapel to block any
communications in or out cellphone and anything, any
communications.
They're just going out of theirway to shut everything down so
(55:15):
that the cardinals there's.
There's no relationship betweenthe conclave movie, the
politics, and the real.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
The real the real, thing, the real thing yeah.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
So pray for the cardinals, pray for the catholic
church, because right now weare in what is called the
interregnum.
Interrupt, my friends, this.
You've been listening to theshow of faith here on knth.
Keep us in your prayers.
You're going to be in ours findus at am1070theanswercom.
Speaker 9 (55:42):
Download our apps.
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