December 18, 2025 • 54 mins
A Star Trek parable sets the stage for a deeper question: why do these ancient pages still feel alive, and what exactly are we trusting when we call them Scripture? We open the Bible not as a single volume but as a library of voices—prophets, poets, evangelists, and apostles—each bearing witness to encounters with God. That shift reframes authority: not a magic object, but faithful testimony preserved by communities that tested, argued, and finally recognized which words carried living truth.
We dig into a sticky analogy—cup and water—to ask where divinity resides. Are words the vessel and meaning the water? If so, translation is holy and hazardous work. We weigh the clarity of the NRSV and ESV, the beauty of the King James, and the reality that every version loses something and gains something. From there, we move to inspiration and preservation, then to illumination—the Spirit’s work as readers engage the text. Without illumination, interpretation can become sterile; with it, head and heart meet, and wisdom becomes devotion that can actually shape a life.
Authority and interpretation take center stage as we compare models. The Catholic view looks to the hierarchy—Pope and bishops—as the final court when meanings collide. The Protestant approach blends rigorous exegesis, historic tradition, and a lived, Spirit-led reading across the global church. Along the way we look at Anglicanism’s tensions to show how doctrine, culture, and governance affect unity. Despite real differences, we keep returning to what draws us: words that resonate, correct, and comfort; texts that somehow read us back.
If this conversation sparks something in you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a rating or review. Tell us: what do you trust most when you open the Bible—the cup, the water, or the Witness behind both?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_06 (00:07):
There's something happening here.
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun overthere.
Telling me I got to beware.
I think it's time we stop,children.
SPEAKER_08 (00:27):
What's that sound?
Everybody look what's goingdown.
unknown (00:41):
I can't hear it at all.
SPEAKER_07 (00:45):
Welcome to a show of faith on AM107 the Answer, where
minister, priest, millennial,and rabbi usually discuss events
in the news with each other anddiscuss theology, philosophy,
morality, ethics, and anythingelse we feel like discussing.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments regarding
what we say, we'd love to hearfrom you.
(01:06):
Please email us at ashow offaith1070 at gmail.com.
Ashow of Faith1070 at gmail.com.
You can hear our shows again andagain by listening pretty much
anywhere podcasts are heard.
Our priest is Father MarioArroyo, retired pastor of St.
Cyril of Alexandria in the10,000 block of Westheimer.
SPEAKER_08 (01:26):
Hello.
SPEAKER_07 (01:27):
Our professor is David Capes, Protestant
Minister, and Director ofAcademic Programming for the
Lanier Theological Library.
SPEAKER_11 (01:35):
Good to be with you guys tonight.
SPEAKER_07 (01:38):
Rudy Kong is our millennial systems engineer and
has his master's degree intheology from the University of
St.
Thomas, but he couldn't be withus tonight.
I'm Stuart Federal, retiredrabbi of Congregation Sha'ar
Hashalo in the Clear Lake areaof Houston, Texas.
And Crystal is our boardoperator, and she is the one who
helps us sound fantastic.
(01:59):
And tonight, lucky everybody, Iam the show director.
And our discussion tonightcenters around the Bible.
About, I don't know, a coupleweeks ago, maybe, I was thinking
about Star Trek.
Um, Crystal, that's a TV showthat was on.
(02:21):
Crystal said she hasn't neverwatched that stuff.
But there was a Star Trekepisode.
She's a baby.
I know, I know.
Either that or we're all justsimply old men.
But about a couple weeks ago, Iwas thinking about a Star Trek
adventure uh episode, and theEnterprise, Captain Kirk, Spock,
(02:43):
et cetera, go back to a planetthat had been visited like a
hundred years before, basicallyto see how well they were
developing.
And they come to find out thattheir society, their culture had
completely turned into like theculture and society of Chicago
in the 1920s, with gangsters andTommy guns and exactly what you
(03:08):
would expect.
And they couldn't understandfirst why it would develop that
fast, and second, why it woulddevelop in that direction, and
and why, exactly like Chicago inthe 1920s, they found out that
the previous ship, spaceship,had left a book on the planet
(03:29):
that was a history of Chicago inthe 1920s, and it had become
their Bible.
In other words, because thisthis book appeared from people
from the heavens, they decidedto they decided it was divine,
(03:51):
and they decided that theyshould basically copy its
culture and that's how theydeveloped.
So the clear implication of thewriters of Star Trek is to cast
aspersions on the Bible, and Iguess to get people to ask the
(04:13):
question Is our Bible thewritings of people that we
simply chose to turn into ourBible?
Are we then therefore merelyparticipating in the religion of
men?
So that's what got me tothinking about the Bible.
(04:36):
So why the Bible?
Why do the stories grab a holdof us?
Why do the writings like Psalmsgrab a hold of our hearts and
souls and express for us andwith us when we recite them so
deeply into the human character?
(04:58):
What is it about the Bible thatmakes it our Bible?
SPEAKER_08 (05:06):
Well are you ready?
SPEAKER_07 (05:09):
Go ahead.
Neither do I.
SPEAKER_08 (05:23):
First of all, the Bible is not a book.
SPEAKER_07 (05:26):
No.
It's a collection of st of ofwritings.
SPEAKER_08 (05:32):
Spanning the Bi that's right.
SPEAKER_07 (05:38):
Well, yes.
SPEAKER_08 (05:42):
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_07 (05:49):
Crystal's not even listening.
You would have loved thosejokes, but okay.
None.
None that I met I can think of.
SPEAKER_08 (05:59):
Um no, but the the see the the Bible we use the
term the Bible, but it really isnot a book.
It's a collection of jokes.
Right.
And and I would venture to saythere's no of course there's no
one author.
SPEAKER_07 (06:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_08 (06:16):
But but the Bible is not a book that but uh but yeah,
but God, if you don't if youtalk about God.
But what I'm saying is that theBible is the statement of faith
of individuals who had anencounter with God in a
particular context.
(06:37):
And so I when I read those thosedocuments, that they're all from
different people.
Um what I am trusting is thatthe individual persons who wrote
those books.
SPEAKER_07 (06:54):
Okay.
But you're not talkingWellhausen, you're talking No,
no.
Okay, Jonah and right, okay.
The prophets, right, right.
The gospel writers, letters ofokay.
So for example, I'm just makingsure you're not talking No,
okay.
SPEAKER_08 (07:06):
I'm talking, like for example, when I read Paul's
letters, I'm trusting Paul.
I'm not trusting the Bible.
I'm trusting Paul.
Paul happens to be part of thebook because the word Bible
Biblia comes from the wordBibilos in Greek, which is
(07:27):
actually the name of a town.
Um the town of Bibelos is wherepapyrus was uh was chiefly
manufactured.
And then collections ofcollections of papyrus were
given the name Bybilos, the nameof the city.
Okay.
So it's it's it's just all allit means is the the book.
(07:48):
But it's not a book.
It's a it's a collection ofindividual books that happen to
be for convenience put together.
But I could have each one ofthose books individually and um
without them being one singlebook, and I would have them all.
I could have all kinds ofdifferent volumes.
(08:09):
And so what I am trusting, forexample, with Paul or with the
gospel writers, and even withIsaiah, with other people, I'm
trusting the individual'sexperience of their encounter
with God.
And I'm trusting that whatthey're trying to do is be a
(08:29):
witness to the revelation thatthey had encountered in their
experience of God.
So I find that the the scriptthe scriptures, I find them to
be witnesses of individuals thatI have come to trust.
So I don't I'm not putting mytrust in a book.
Right.
I'm putting my trust in theauthors.
In the author.
SPEAKER_07 (08:48):
Okay, but why?
What what is it about thewritings, for example, your
example, of Paul, that leads youto say, I'm gonna trust Paul?
SPEAKER_08 (08:58):
Because when uh first of all, because they are
witnesses to an experience,okay, to an experience of
revelation that they had anencounter, okay.
And when I listen to theirencounter and I listen to the
content, that content i umresonates inside of me.
(09:20):
Thank you.
It resonates inside me.
And say I I say your experienceis matching what mine is.
SPEAKER_07 (09:30):
See that that to me is the key to the authors of the
Bible.
Whatever you want to say aboutit, and and David, I'm I'm gonna
I I know you know the analogythat I can't quote very
perfectly, but there's ananalogy of of a cup that has
water in it, and how we view theholiness, authority, divine
(09:56):
nature of the Bible.
Do you know what I'm referringto?
David?
SPEAKER_08 (10:05):
I don't think David's there.
SPEAKER_11 (10:07):
Yeah, I'm here.
I'm just uh having a hard timeunderstanding.
Can you hear him?
Yeah, your voice is very brokenup.
Father Mario's is clear, but forme, I'm having a really
difficult time making out whatyou're saying.
SPEAKER_08 (10:22):
Well, you know, David, that's not a question of
the hardware.
It's a question of the clarityof my my thoughts.
SPEAKER_11 (10:31):
No, I I I mean I I think you're you're I think that
was good.
SPEAKER_07 (10:36):
But but but David, do do you do you know what I'm
referring to?
Like, is the cup which means thetext holding the divine, or is
it the cup and the water isdivine?
Do you you do you know what I'mYeah.
SPEAKER_08 (10:50):
The water is the the cup is the book, the paper, the
language.
SPEAKER_07 (10:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (10:56):
Okay.
The water is the meaning that isbeing transferred, and when you
taste that meaning through themedium of words, that meaning is
quenching something inside ofyou.
SPEAKER_07 (11:08):
But but the but the question becomes is the water
independent of the cup?
Yes.
And it itself divine, or is itmerely inspired?
No.
SPEAKER_08 (11:21):
I forgot the what do you mean, is the water divine?
Yeah, is the water No the wateris a conduit for the divine.
SPEAKER_07 (11:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (11:30):
The words are themselves are not the words
themselves are like um are likeuh street signs that tell that
point to somewhere.
Okay.
So the divine is not can neverbe anything uh that is created.
It's it the the actual divinityis the the the grace which is
(11:51):
invisible, which is it is Yes,but try changing the words to
the 23rd Psalm and see howpeople react.
SPEAKER_07 (11:58):
They think it's one way and that's it.
SPEAKER_08 (12:02):
Um yeah, but that's but people can be wrong.
SPEAKER_07 (12:04):
People can be wrong.
Be right, yes, that's true.
SPEAKER_08 (12:08):
David.
SPEAKER_11 (12:10):
Yeah, uh again, I'm I'm having I can't understand
anything that Stuart is saying.
It's it's very garbled and verybroken up.
I'm not sure what's happening.
Um I I think I I got a sense ofa little bit of a sense of the
gist of what you were saying.
Um I would I would argue thatrevelation has been happening
(12:30):
now for thousands of years.
And these revelations, umthere's a passage in Paul, we
talked about Paul earlier, whereit says basically that God has
entrusted Israel with theoracles of God, right?
Now he's referring there to theOld Testament, what we call the
(12:51):
Old Testament today or theHebrew Bible.
And and so the whole idea isthat God has entrusted to us
these these particular words,these amazing words, right?
And these words do matter, uh Iwould I would argue.
I think these words docommunicate uh with without
(13:11):
words that communicate andcommunicate clearly, we're we're
not people clearly as we've seentonight.
We're not able to understand it.
So it's not just it's not justnoise, it's not just garble.
There is a word with a message.
And that word with a message canbe uh rendered in in all sorts
of different languages.
(13:32):
In fact, every human language.
Um it is a word of revelation,is a word of revelation that has
come to particular individuals,and these particular
individuals, being faithful,have written down those words,
and that's where I think theBible has this sense of
authority and value.
(13:53):
And with Mario, I think, um, andwith you, Stuart too, from what
I can I can discern, is thatthere is a a sense of of of our
our witness, uh our our spiritbears witness with these words.
They they agree.
There's something in them thatagrees.
And so that agrees with what?
SPEAKER_08 (14:15):
They resonate with the reader.
With the with the the the thepresence of God and truth inside
of you.
SPEAKER_07 (14:23):
In in inside of the reader, though.
SPEAKER_08 (14:25):
Yes.
SPEAKER_07 (14:26):
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I don't think they wouldsurvive in any form at all if
they didn't.
Why why quote the Psalms if theydon't touch us?
Why why why if there's no wisdomin the wisdom literature of the
Proverbs, why mess around withit?
So if it didn't have that.
SPEAKER_08 (14:49):
Well, let me let me tell you though, something that
what really resonates in me, andthat is that we need to go to a
break.
Yes.
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH, and wewill be right back.
SPEAKER_06 (15:01):
December 7th, 1941, a date which will live in
infamy.
United States of America wassuddenly and deliberately
attacked.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
America went to war again.
SPEAKER_06 (15:15):
Between the United States and the Japanese Empire.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Today and every day, we salute the members of the
greatest generation who foughtto protect our freedom.
Remembering Pearl Harbor, AM1070 and FM 1033, the answer.
SPEAKER_12 (15:43):
Let's do the twist.
SPEAKER_08 (15:56):
Oh, like this.
SPEAKER_07 (15:57):
There we go.
Oh yeah.
Whatever you memorize this.
This is great.
Okay.
Welcome back to a show of faithon AMT7 the answer.
SPEAKER_08 (16:05):
David, can you understand uh dear rabbits too?
SPEAKER_11 (16:10):
David?
No, I I mean I I can't uh Ican't make out anything he's
saying is so badly uh Yeah, he'snever understood me, so you
know.
But yeah, I'm not sure.
I I've heard distortion before,but never never says this.
SPEAKER_08 (16:25):
Yeah.
Um but can you hear me?
SPEAKER_11 (16:29):
I can hear you pretty well, yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
That's all you need.
All right, David All I need isto is one of you to interpret
the other.
SPEAKER_07 (16:39):
I have no idea what he meant what he means.
David, what is your favoritetranslation besides besides the
one you directed, you you headedup.
SPEAKER_11 (16:55):
Are you asking about my favorite translation?
SPEAKER_12 (16:57):
Yes.
SPEAKER_11 (16:59):
Oh, okay.
Uh I my favorite is the originallanguages, which is Greek and
Hebrew.
Well, I mean, I do think everytime we translate something into
another language, we misssomething.
Uh but in the meantime, I I'mI'm using now the new revised
standard version a lot.
I'm using uh also the uh EnglishStandard Version as well,
(17:20):
although there are problems withboth of those translations.
SPEAKER_07 (17:23):
There's always problems.
It's like the Italian, whichI'll mispronounce, is something
like traditori tradutori, whichmeans the translator is a
traitor.
And I think that that's prettyaccurate.
There's not a singletranslation, Jewish or
otherwise, that I I like.
Because I I like you, I go tothe Hebrew.
(17:43):
Well, you go to the Hebrew andthe Greek, but I go to the
Hebrew, and there's alwayssomething drastically lacking.
When I when I was on the pulpitand I would want to point
something out in that week'sreading, that week's Torah
portion, it wouldn't be in thetranslation.
In invariably, every week.
There's not a single translationI know of that I really enjoy
(18:06):
that I really like.
SPEAKER_08 (18:07):
Well, for me, um being the least learned of the
three of us.
Well, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (18:14):
I disagree with you there, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_08 (18:16):
I do not speak or understand neither Greek nor
Hebrew, but I do understandSpanish.
And that's something you guysdon't.
So um so uh what?
SPEAKER_07 (18:30):
If Rudy were here, he would uh jump in there.
SPEAKER_08 (18:33):
Well yeah, you know, but he he's a kid.
Uh but uh my favoritetranslation um is the NRSV.
SPEAKER_07 (18:42):
Is the newly revised standard version?
Yeah.
Yes.
My NRSV.
See, I I I like the revisedstandard version and the newly
revised standard version.
Yeah.
Because sometimes, not all thetime, but sometimes, if they've
chosen a translation based onsomething other than the Hebrew,
sometimes they'll tell you aboutit.
(19:02):
And then they'll say, but theHebrew says in the notes
underneath.
Yeah.
That that's the RSV and the NRSVdo that.
SPEAKER_08 (19:09):
Yeah.
I I I really now the English,what David, what is the name of
that?
The English Bible?
The English Standard V uhversion of the Bible.
That is very beautiful, too.
SPEAKER_11 (19:21):
Yeah, it's well done.
I mean, you know, I as Stuartknows, uh, I was involved in a
translation project a number ofyears ago, uh, and I found more
and more times that I've agreedwith what the King James Bible
had said.
Um the way it rendered things,the artful way.
There was there was a beauty toit uh that that we don't see in
(19:43):
a lot of translations as they'retrying to uh in a way make them
more understandable, moremodern, et cetera.
But uh it we sometimes you loseout, particularly on poetry,
where you you you don't get thisthis poetic sense that you you
have.
Found in in other trans in otherin the King James, that is.
SPEAKER_07 (20:04):
Or it becomes so poetic that it loses its
connection with the original.
There are words that sneak inbecause they're poetic sounding,
but there is no word in theentire v verse where that word
used in the translation appears.
SPEAKER_08 (20:22):
Can you understand him at all, David?
SPEAKER_07 (20:26):
Can you hear me or not hear me?
Understand me or hear me?
Which one do you mean?
SPEAKER_08 (20:30):
Understand.
SPEAKER_07 (20:32):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (20:32):
I think David can hear you.
SPEAKER_07 (20:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (20:34):
But David, can you understand him?
SPEAKER_07 (20:40):
David?
I think David just clicked offsomehow.
But what I'm for example, uh ina translation, they might,
instead of saying, The Lord ismy shepherd, I shall not want,
they might say, The Lord is myshepherd, I shall not want food.
(21:02):
But the word food doesn't appearin the Hebrew.
But not that, that's a poorexample.
But what I'm trying to refer tois where they're trying to sound
poetic and they will add wordslike that because they make it
poetic sounding, but they're notin the original.
Yeah.
It's really taking libertieswith the translation.
And there are plenty oftranslations that do that.
(21:23):
Drives me crazy.
SPEAKER_08 (21:24):
Yeah, I think that the um the the NRSV and the
English version are pretty goodabout the.
No, they don't do that.
But like for example, when youread the the expanded Bible.
SPEAKER_07 (21:36):
The what?
SPEAKER_08 (21:37):
The expanded Bible?
Um documentary.
No, it's not a tran is that aCatholic translation?
No, it's Protestant.
It's a Protestant.
SPEAKER_07 (21:45):
Expanded translation?
SPEAKER_08 (21:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (21:49):
I'll look it up.
SPEAKER_11 (21:49):
I've never I'm trying to remember the exact
title of it, but but it does, itit takes and expands upon it
doesn't expand the meaning, butit it takes uh rather than
choosing a single singularmeeting, uh meaning for a word,
sometimes it'll show the rangeof meanings with that word.
SPEAKER_08 (22:08):
Yeah.
It it it and it puts them inparentheses or something like
that.
But like a never heard of it.
Yeah, a word and it'll i it'sactually not bad, but it's kind
of disruptive when you're tryingto read the scriptures and all
of a sudden they're giving youthey're actually telling you,
well, this word could betranslated as this, this, this,
(22:29):
this, and they put it inside thetext.
SPEAKER_07 (22:32):
Okay.
So i it's just uh But youwouldn't call it a paraphrase.
SPEAKER_08 (22:36):
No, it's not a paraphrase.
SPEAKER_07 (22:37):
Okay.
So no It's just picking whichtranslation which they want to
use.
SPEAKER_08 (22:44):
They're actually going through verse by verse,
and whenever there is acontention as to the
translation, they'll give youall the words that it could
possibly be being interpreted.
SPEAKER_12 (22:56):
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_11 (22:57):
So yeah, I mean part of it's just the tr the
challenge of doing translations,Stuart was talking about.
Uh there are there are lots ofdifficulties with trying to
create a translation.
Um because words don't have aone-for-one kind of uh uh
(23:18):
equality, there is a sense.
Uh it may take four Englishwords to create and say what
we're doing.
SPEAKER_07 (23:25):
Right.
From one language to another.
Yep.
That's true.
Because to convey the meaning ofthe word, it might need more
words in a different language.
SPEAKER_11 (23:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (23:37):
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_11 (23:41):
One of the things Stuart, and we can come back to
uh and talk about this a littlebit later, but w one of the
things Stuart talked about wasthat he didn't really want to
get into interpretation.
But I I don't know that we cantalk about this effectively
without re regarding how youknow, just because uh um, let's
(24:01):
say one of the things thatChristians don't believe is that
there's 700 different meaningsto every text, you know, um that
you can trans you can prettymuch just say whatever it is you
think or feel at that particularmoment, and that's what the text
means.
There are there are reasonableuh ways of going after and
(24:23):
interpreting a text and sayingwhat the text means.
So I think we'd want to avoidtrying to give people the in the
the idea that just go out thereand uh read it and just whatever
it means to you, that's what itmeans.
But David, I hear that all thetime.
SPEAKER_07 (24:42):
But I hear that all the time because people will say
even today, by the way, I readpeople saying, Well, I you know,
the Holy Spirit spoke to me andtold me this is what it means,
and one person said they evenwrote a book about it because
the Holy Spirit spoke directlyto them about the meaning of
something.
(25:02):
So it happens.
SPEAKER_08 (25:04):
The Holy Spirit just talked to me.
SPEAKER_07 (25:05):
And said, let's go to a break.
SPEAKER_08 (25:07):
That's right.
1070, Candy A, and we'll beright back.
SPEAKER_03 (25:11):
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unknown (27:13):
Johnny Angel.
SPEAKER_05 (27:15):
Johnny Angel Johnny Angel.
You're an angel to shake.
Johnny Angel, how I love him.
How I tingle when he passes byevery time he says hello, my
(27:37):
heartbeat begins to fly.
SPEAKER_07 (27:42):
You scared me.
SPEAKER_08 (27:48):
He's got something that I can't say.
You know, I've often wondered.
But what I know to be love is sodifferent from falling in love.
SPEAKER_07 (28:15):
Yes, we talked about that last week.
SPEAKER_08 (28:17):
I know.
SPEAKER_07 (28:17):
I just find it so you just wanted to remind people
what we said.
SPEAKER_08 (28:20):
You know, no, I I when she when she said Johnny
Angel, he's got something that Ican't resist.
And what is it that what is itthat is occurring inside of us
when you fall in love that youcan't resist something in the
other?
There's something of God there,but I don't know what of God
(28:40):
because it doesn't it's theyearning.
Yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_07 (28:43):
There's a it's a parallel of yearning.
I'm yearning for the other andyearning for the other.
SPEAKER_08 (28:49):
I am constantly I am obsessed with figuring out what
it means to be human.
SPEAKER_07 (28:54):
To be human.
That's what religion's allabout.
SPEAKER_08 (28:58):
So anyway, it's not much.
SPEAKER_07 (29:00):
As a matter of fact, I always say that in the same
way that a computer is appliedmathematics, religion is applied
psychology.
SPEAKER_08 (29:07):
Well, actually, that's you know who would agree
with you?
A gentleman by the name of CarlRahner.
Great theologian Carl CarlRahner.
SPEAKER_07 (29:17):
Oh, of course, yes.
SPEAKER_08 (29:18):
He would say he would say theology is
anthropology amplified.
SPEAKER_07 (29:23):
Right.
Well, speaking of anthropology,okay.
Mario, uh we when we began ourconversation, you said that you
put your faith in Paul.
SPEAKER_08 (29:36):
No, I put my faith in God speaking through Paul.
SPEAKER_07 (29:40):
But what did you then what did you say about
Paul's writing?
SPEAKER_08 (29:43):
That Paul's writing.
You trust Paul.
I trust him.
SPEAKER_07 (29:46):
Okay.
And every book of the Bible hasan author, okay, or or a
transcriber, if you prefer.
Okay, so God speaks speech witha God's speech came through
humans.
SPEAKER_08 (30:03):
That's right.
SPEAKER_07 (30:04):
Humans wrote it down, humans tr uh you know,
kept it going, handed it down toa generation, which handed it
down to another generation.
There is a trust there, a faiththere.
But doesn't that mean that allreligion becomes the religion of
men?
SPEAKER_08 (30:24):
Well, all religion is received by men.
So it's not of men, but allisn't it?
SPEAKER_07 (30:32):
No.
But if we're trusting atranslation of men.
SPEAKER_08 (30:35):
Yeah, but we believe that those translations are
inspired.
SPEAKER_07 (30:40):
Well, that's what led me to the cup analogy I
couldn't explain very well.
SPEAKER_08 (30:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (30:45):
Because is it inspired of God?
Is it not inspired, but theactual word of God?
No.
There's an analogy somebodywrote with a cup of water.
I just don't remember what itis.
SPEAKER_08 (30:55):
See, the me it's the meaning.
So I always like to compare thisto the Quran.
Because in the Quran, God isactually dictating the words of
the Quran to Mohammed.
So there is a one-to-onerelationship of God speaking to
(31:16):
Mohammed.
There is no translation that canbe done.
It is God's word.
SPEAKER_07 (31:21):
Now in the Arabic.
In Arabic God speaking to Mosesand creating the five books of
Moses.
SPEAKER_08 (31:27):
I know, but see, for example, i i i it's it's i it's
uh in the Quran it is adictation.
And in the Bible, it iscommunication, not dictation.
Communication meaning God may beusing the context, the the
meaning, the customs of thetime, and all of that to the the
(31:50):
people that are being so it'swhat we you and I call
understand as progressiverevelation, that God is not God
is accommodating himself to theculture of the people so that he
can make himself understood.
But just like you would talk,baby talk to a baby, you and
then as the Right, you have tospeak the language of the person
(32:11):
to whom you're talking.
SPEAKER_07 (32:12):
That's right.
SPEAKER_08 (32:12):
Right.
But you know, the Quran, that'snot the case.
That's not the case.
SPEAKER_07 (32:16):
There is no dictation, those words came from
God.
SPEAKER_08 (32:21):
And they are not culturally in the R.
SPEAKER_07 (32:23):
There's kind of a feeling like that with the
Torah, with the five books ofMoses and mo and receiving it
from God.
SPEAKER_08 (32:30):
Yes, if we would not.
SPEAKER_07 (32:33):
But it's only the Torah, it's only the five books
of Moses.
You can't you cannot read thebook of Psalms and think that
the all the sentiments in therecame from God.
SPEAKER_08 (32:42):
Yeah, no.
The Catholic understanding wouldbe the whole scripture is is
culturally isn't culturallyconditioned.
SPEAKER_07 (32:53):
But if it's culturally conditioned, it's
culturally conditioned accordingto what men write, that's
correct, transcribe, transmit,translate.
SPEAKER_08 (33:03):
Which is ultimately for us, okay?
That's why ultimately what?
For us, ultimately, it cannot beinterpreted by us without the
insights of the Holy Spirit,without God helping us to
interpret it.
SPEAKER_07 (33:17):
Okay, David, do you have a comment?
SPEAKER_11 (33:22):
Yeah, uh I I I think I'm following what you're
saying.
Yeah, the the the whole ideathat I think you're you're
aiming at here is is the thenotion that yeah, in one form
there's dictation, in the otherthere is just, as you said,
communication or communicationevent in which God has inspired
(33:43):
somebody to write something.
And then it's inspired both it'snot only inspired to be written,
but it's also preserved.
Yes, right in a way.
Right.
And so a part of a part of thepreservation, a part of
inspiration, is that God haschosen to preserve certain of
these texts and not other texts.
(34:04):
Most texts from the ancientworld have been lost.
You know, they they just go awaybecause that there they didn't
seem to have any value, I think,both from the community
standpoint, but also from thestandpoint of the uh of God.
God there were a lot of bookswritten, he said no to these
particular books.
But there was a process, a veryrigorous process for choosing
(34:27):
which books were included uh inthe the the Christian Bible.
Same thing with the JewishBible, too.
Absolutely.
Anything in is you know, theGenesis Apocryphon is not there.
Uh the book of Jubilees is notin the Hebrew Bible, for
example.
Uh although these are dealingwith Hebrew characters and times
(34:49):
and those kind of things.
The other thing is when youthink about it, all of this is
culturally conditioned.
SPEAKER_12 (34:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_11 (34:56):
I mean, even the language something comes in is
culturally conditioned.
That's great.
Absolutely.
You know, or some other, youknow, in Chinese.
Uh the language itself, theculture itself is reflective of
these things.
So good interpretation takes allof these contexts into
(35:18):
consideration as we read them inthe modern times against the
ancient cultures.
SPEAKER_08 (35:25):
But if you were David, you would you would you
say though, that um withoutbringing in God Himself, the
Holy Spirit, um, to help us toget the correct interpretation,
it without including that in theguarantee of of the transfer of
meaning, I don't think we couldactually uh be sure of anything.
(35:49):
That's why to me, uh a personwho has no faith, no no sense of
of uh communion with God, Iwould not trust them to be able
to uh interpret the scripturescorrectly.
Would you?
SPEAKER_11 (36:03):
Oh, that's that's exactly right.
I I refer to that particularelement is illumination.
Um inspiration is the process ofcreating and preserving these
texts.
When the Holy Spirit, when weencounter these texts through
the power of the Spirit, then uhwe are illuminated in the same
way that the ancients were.
(36:24):
Uh our culture is different, ourtimes are different, our
language is different, but westill face this uh wonderful
gift on our side of illuminationfrom each things, and they speak
to us in in various and sundryways.
And people all across the globetestify to this idea at some
(36:45):
point when they come to faith inJesus and and and are reading
the text that as Father Mariosaid, there's something in their
spirit that agrees with that,that speaks to them, and and
these texts are a way ofcorrecting us when we're wrong,
of encouraging us when we'reright, of of teaching us when we
(37:08):
need to be taught.
So they are they arefundamentally useful to us, um,
and they are helpful to us inshaping our lives and and
leading us to to God and and tosalvation.
SPEAKER_07 (37:22):
See, David, Mario said something that it sh that
you are lucky because you hadthe best of both worlds.
You could be an academician, youcould have an academic viewpoint
of religion in general, theBible specifically, but because
you were teaching in a Christianenvironment, you didn't have to
(37:46):
lose your uh I don't know whatto call it.
SPEAKER_08 (37:50):
Illumination, by the way.
SPEAKER_07 (37:52):
Yeah.
But but my impression ofacademic study, of pure academic
study of the Bible, of religionin general, of of anything in
religion, is that they they haveno they have no respect.
No, that's not the right word.
They have no connection to thedivine.
(38:13):
And so they're so academic thatand they're so deeply trying to
maintain this level ofobjectivity that there's
something to be lost.
That's why I never wanted to bea professor on a college campus.
SPEAKER_08 (38:26):
It's interesting because what's happening too is
that they are excluding the umthe the the deeper understanding
in terms that a person who hasfaith can can have.
And since they are limitingthemselves to historical, to uh
(38:47):
uh linguistic analysis and stufflike that, they cannot for at
all interpret the deeper.
SPEAKER_07 (38:53):
Exactly.
See that that's that's see Davidcan do that because he's on a
religious canvas.
SPEAKER_08 (38:58):
For me, I just want to say one last thing for us,
for me as a Catholic, this wouldbe excluding David a little bit,
and that is that for us, theultimate interpretation of any
text is uh uh reserved to thehierarchy uh of the church.
Because we don't we we don'tbelieve any w any that we
(39:20):
believe that the fullinterpretation of any text has
to be done m especially by thePope and the well and the
bishops, because ultimately youcan interpret the you can say,
God told me that this, God toldme that.
SPEAKER_07 (39:33):
Right, anybody can, but if you're outside the the
chain, that's what you mean byhierarchy.
You can come up with anything.
SPEAKER_08 (39:39):
That's right.
That's why the the the theultimate interpretation for us
is okay, when you have ten toten different people saying it
means ten different things, yousay, What does the hierarchy
say?
Because we believe that thehierarchy is is being guided by
the Holy Spirit for that.
SPEAKER_07 (39:56):
Ultimately Judaism is not the religion of the of
the Hebrew scriptures.
It's not the religion of the OldTestament.
It's the religion of the 4,000year history of the relationship
of the Jewish people to theHebrew scriptures.
And how they've looked at it andanalyzed it and made it current
(40:18):
and Catholicism, Protestantismis the same thing.
It's not the religion of the NewTestament.
It's the religion of theinterpretation of the New
Testament over 2,000 years.
SPEAKER_08 (40:27):
Okay, I wouldn't disagree with that, but you know
what I would disagree with?
SPEAKER_07 (40:30):
Then we have to go to a break.
How can I read you so well?
SPEAKER_08 (40:33):
Because we've been on each other for a long time
and we look at the clock.
That's right, this is AMTH 1070and we'll be right back.
SPEAKER_04 (40:40):
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SPEAKER_11 (42:39):
Sunday night at 9 1 a.m let me say I I would a
(43:19):
couple of things uh number oneone of the things Protestants
try to do is try to avoid ainterpretation and a value of
scripture that is just for thehead only that is just for the
academic we we think that humanbeing being human beings going
(43:40):
back to Father Mario's questionabout anthropology we are both
heads and hearts uh people of ofI wouldn't say emotion is as
much as devotion uh people ofdevotion so we we join together
as often as we can the theacademic the head reading with
(44:01):
the heart reading I think that'sthat's important to say we don't
have a hierarchy who caninterpret the text the way that
Father Mario uh described but wedo have a 2,000 years of
Christian tradition.
We have the early church fatherswho were individuals that were
within the same roughly the sameculture, the same time, the same
(44:23):
language and we look to themvery often as kind of for
clarity and in trying tounderstand what uh what these
people of the first century atthe time of Jesus were were
saying.
So we we do hold high in ourconsideration and interpretation
not only the the the the kind ofthe academic the head stuff but
(44:46):
also the devotion and thetradition self that that has
been reading these texts now forthe last two thousand years.
But basically Christian textbasically David you would be I
would say that uh uh Protestantsdo not have a supreme court we
don't no we don't yeah that'sand and there are a lot of
(45:08):
different versions ofProtestantism too I mean there
are bishops within certain ranksand and church and
denominations.
SPEAKER_08 (45:14):
No because he go ahead.
SPEAKER_07 (45:16):
Well I was just gonna say but David there's
still some people's writingsthat are going to be much much
more influential than others andI'm gonna get the name wrong but
there's a William Henrycommentary that I've looked at a
lot you know it's been a while.
SPEAKER_11 (45:34):
William Henry is that the name Yeah I I mean
there's certain there arecertain resources that we look
to uh exactly as being more morevaluable and more helpful than
others uh we're always sort oflooking for the the better
commentary the better resourcethe better uh contextual
references to help us get asense of what the text are so
(45:56):
we're constantly in that sort ofsearch for and dealing with the
ancient cultures, the ancientlanguages and such in order to
try to read these texts for alltheir work.
SPEAKER_08 (46:06):
Yeah but you know David I I I I I I still find it
uh hard um to um to see howProtestantism and granted that's
not even okay it's it's it's umalmost a word that doesn't mean
anything but it it's I I I waswatching this weekend a a a
(46:27):
chronology on YouTube of thedestruction of the Episcopal
church and the Anglican church.
The destruction of it Oh god yesI mean uh they were they were uh
analyzing the membership of theAnglican and the Episcopal
church from the nineteen fiftiesall the way up to today.
You mean like over issues andsplitting individual churches
(46:48):
kind of thing or yeah and andthe fact that uh I think that uh
they have gone down by sixtysome percent uh in terms of
attendance and the the wholeidea of of female now which you
w with what you have with theArchbishop of Canterbury uh
being a woman you know now anduh gay uh gay unions and gay
(47:10):
priesthood and normalizing thatand it's both Anglican which is
uh England and the Episcopalwhich is very interesting
because the you could see thatthere was no uh ultimate Supreme
Court.
And when there was a real distuh a real difference of opinion
(47:31):
um there the only the onlyability to do that to resolve
that was to split and uh it'sinteresting because I I was
listening to a commentator uh onthat and he was used the example
of the United States and he'ssaying imagine that a group in
the United States doesn't agreewith uh the interpretation of
(47:53):
the Constitution and so whatthey do is they try and secede
which is what basically theCivil War was.
So if you know without if youdon't have a Supreme Court in
some way or another you're indanger of uh constantly
splitting.
SPEAKER_11 (48:09):
Would would you would you agree with that David
Yeah I I I would I would I thinkthat that is one of the
challenges Protestants do haveum in terms of the record let me
just say that that Anglicanismthe Anglican church consists of
a of a lot of differentcommunions groups and only in
(48:31):
the United States or in the Westis it receding at that rate at
that 60% rate Anglicanism in inChina Anglicanism in in Europe
uh I'm sorry in in Africa uhSouth America it's very very
strong David um vocabularylesson you said the Anglican
(48:54):
church had different communionsand I'm not clear on the meaning
um well let me there's there'sthe Anglican Church of North
America which is on theconservative side socially and
theologically is that the sameas Episcopalian the Episcopal
(49:15):
church is the Anglican communionin the United States Episcopal
church.
So that's the one that uh he uhFather Mara was referring to
that is the people who thinkthat they've gone too far to the
left yeah um in the social andand and theological sense.
SPEAKER_08 (49:33):
David could you say that the Anglican that that the
Anglican church in itself doesnot exist anymore that it exists
as a bunch of differentdenominations I wouldn't say
that at all.
SPEAKER_11 (49:48):
I would I would say that it's changing it's evolving
it's shaping this is this ispost Vatican uh two kind of uh
uh changes you know that thathave gone on and uh it it's it's
fairly extreme and there aregoing to be some people that
that have their trouble findingtheir foothold in in that in
(50:10):
both of those but but theworldwide Anglican communion the
larger sense is on the moreconservative side of the but
wouldn't you say that that thatthe only thing that's holding
them a not all of them but holda lot of them together is just
the name because it's I don'tthink so because if you uh the
(50:30):
there's a there's a documentcalled the thirty nine articles
which is in the Book of CommonPrayer which is thirty nine
doctrinal elements basically andI would say that uh every
Anglican um communion everyAnglican group will um look to
those statements as beingauthoritative as being you know
(50:52):
a kind of a guide to faith it isin a way it's it's it analogy
wise it's kind of like the uhthe hierarchy yeah it's it's a
document that that nobody Idon't think people are
contesting that they'recontesting other things about it
necessarily uh uh that that aremore social these days theologi
the liberalism etc yeah andconservativism but I but I I
(51:16):
think there's a whole lotholding Anglicans together.
SPEAKER_07 (51:19):
Okay I don't think it's just a bunch of disparate
uh congregations that are thatare coming it's coming to be
also when you talk about theAnglican which is England which
is Europe they're having allsorts of problems with the
Christian community or you knowbecause of other pressures.
(51:39):
So not I'm not convinced thatthat's related to the internal
denominationalism but ratherjust simply the European culture
and takeover.
Yeah so all right we're uhalmost out of time but very
interesting topic I I have aanother question but we may not
(52:02):
have time for any real dealingwith it and that is you know
that I've said that the book ofEcclesiastes is my favorite book
of the Bible that's not what I'masking the book of the Bible but
in the Bible there areindividual stories or narratives
I I would say that my favoritenarrative would probably be Poro
that would probably be the bookof Esther.
(52:23):
Do you all have a favoritenarrative favorite singular
story like a section of a bookor just John chapter one okay
but that's not a narrativethat's not a story.
SPEAKER_08 (52:36):
In the beginning was the word and the word was with
God and well that's my favorite.
SPEAKER_11 (52:41):
But that's still your favorite okay David um you
know I refuse to answer thatquestion is on the grounds that
it might increase incriminateyou okay um no look whatever
well honestly whatever I'mworking on at that moment is
kind of my favorite I'm I'mwriting now my a second book on
the book of Matthew so Icontinue to uh find that book
(53:03):
exhilarating interesting butchallenging my one of my next
projects is going to be writinga commentary on the book of
Philippians and when I get tothat in a few years a couple of
years down the road I'm gonnaI'm just gonna be eating
drinking and thinkingPhilippians all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (53:19):
So it's sort of it it just you know I don't have
any favorites honestly I findthem all interesting and and
elevating and uh all boats riseuh when it comes to scripture
all right that's actually prettygood I think so I still my still
John is my still my favoritebutton say it again John is
still my favorite right yeahwell but do you trust do you
(53:45):
trust John I do trust John okayall right good good for you
faithful witnesses who's incharge next week um gosh I think
Rudy no I think it's David thatmay be me so God willing I'll be
(54:06):
better I'll be feeling betterhave gotten over COVID and I
will be ready David Mario meadDavid then Rudy so David you're
next you're next right there wego and hopefully we'll have Rudy
back yes yes yes he got aninvitation to go watch a uh
children's choir concert forChristmas ah yes yes the
(54:30):
children's choir right that's abig big draw thank you for
listening to us here on the showof faith please join this week
keep us in your prayers becauseyou are going to be finding at
AM107 eveanswer.com download ourapps stream us twenty four seven
K N T H and K two seventy sevenD E F M Houston
There's something happening here.
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun overthere.
Telling me I got to beware.
I think it's time we stop,children.
SPEAKER_08 (00:27):
What's that sound?
Everybody look what's goingdown.
unknown (00:41):
I can't hear it at all.
SPEAKER_07 (00:45):
Welcome to a show of faith on AM107 the Answer, where
minister, priest, millennial,and rabbi usually discuss events
in the news with each other anddiscuss theology, philosophy,
morality, ethics, and anythingelse we feel like discussing.
If you have any response to ourtopics or any comments regarding
what we say, we'd love to hearfrom you.
(01:06):
Please email us at ashow offaith1070 at gmail.com.
Ashow of Faith1070 at gmail.com.
You can hear our shows again andagain by listening pretty much
anywhere podcasts are heard.
Our priest is Father MarioArroyo, retired pastor of St.
Cyril of Alexandria in the10,000 block of Westheimer.
SPEAKER_08 (01:26):
Hello.
SPEAKER_07 (01:27):
Our professor is David Capes, Protestant
Minister, and Director ofAcademic Programming for the
Lanier Theological Library.
SPEAKER_11 (01:35):
Good to be with you guys tonight.
SPEAKER_07 (01:38):
Rudy Kong is our millennial systems engineer and
has his master's degree intheology from the University of
St.
Thomas, but he couldn't be withus tonight.
I'm Stuart Federal, retiredrabbi of Congregation Sha'ar
Hashalo in the Clear Lake areaof Houston, Texas.
And Crystal is our boardoperator, and she is the one who
helps us sound fantastic.
(01:59):
And tonight, lucky everybody, Iam the show director.
And our discussion tonightcenters around the Bible.
About, I don't know, a coupleweeks ago, maybe, I was thinking
about Star Trek.
Um, Crystal, that's a TV showthat was on.
(02:21):
Crystal said she hasn't neverwatched that stuff.
But there was a Star Trekepisode.
She's a baby.
I know, I know.
Either that or we're all justsimply old men.
But about a couple weeks ago, Iwas thinking about a Star Trek
adventure uh episode, and theEnterprise, Captain Kirk, Spock,
(02:43):
et cetera, go back to a planetthat had been visited like a
hundred years before, basicallyto see how well they were
developing.
And they come to find out thattheir society, their culture had
completely turned into like theculture and society of Chicago
in the 1920s, with gangsters andTommy guns and exactly what you
(03:08):
would expect.
And they couldn't understandfirst why it would develop that
fast, and second, why it woulddevelop in that direction, and
and why, exactly like Chicago inthe 1920s, they found out that
the previous ship, spaceship,had left a book on the planet
(03:29):
that was a history of Chicago inthe 1920s, and it had become
their Bible.
In other words, because thisthis book appeared from people
from the heavens, they decidedto they decided it was divine,
(03:51):
and they decided that theyshould basically copy its
culture and that's how theydeveloped.
So the clear implication of thewriters of Star Trek is to cast
aspersions on the Bible, and Iguess to get people to ask the
(04:13):
question Is our Bible thewritings of people that we
simply chose to turn into ourBible?
Are we then therefore merelyparticipating in the religion of
men?
So that's what got me tothinking about the Bible.
(04:36):
So why the Bible?
Why do the stories grab a holdof us?
Why do the writings like Psalmsgrab a hold of our hearts and
souls and express for us andwith us when we recite them so
deeply into the human character?
(04:58):
What is it about the Bible thatmakes it our Bible?
SPEAKER_08 (05:06):
Well are you ready?
SPEAKER_07 (05:09):
Go ahead.
Neither do I.
SPEAKER_08 (05:23):
First of all, the Bible is not a book.
SPEAKER_07 (05:26):
No.
It's a collection of st of ofwritings.
SPEAKER_08 (05:32):
Spanning the Bi that's right.
SPEAKER_07 (05:38):
Well, yes.
SPEAKER_08 (05:42):
No, no, no.
SPEAKER_07 (05:49):
Crystal's not even listening.
You would have loved thosejokes, but okay.
None.
None that I met I can think of.
SPEAKER_08 (05:59):
Um no, but the the see the the Bible we use the
term the Bible, but it really isnot a book.
It's a collection of jokes.
Right.
And and I would venture to saythere's no of course there's no
one author.
SPEAKER_07 (06:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_08 (06:16):
But but the Bible is not a book that but uh but yeah,
but God, if you don't if youtalk about God.
But what I'm saying is that theBible is the statement of faith
of individuals who had anencounter with God in a
particular context.
(06:37):
And so I when I read those thosedocuments, that they're all from
different people.
Um what I am trusting is thatthe individual persons who wrote
those books.
SPEAKER_07 (06:54):
Okay.
But you're not talkingWellhausen, you're talking No,
no.
Okay, Jonah and right, okay.
The prophets, right, right.
The gospel writers, letters ofokay.
So for example, I'm just makingsure you're not talking No,
okay.
SPEAKER_08 (07:06):
I'm talking, like for example, when I read Paul's
letters, I'm trusting Paul.
I'm not trusting the Bible.
I'm trusting Paul.
Paul happens to be part of thebook because the word Bible
Biblia comes from the wordBibilos in Greek, which is
(07:27):
actually the name of a town.
Um the town of Bibelos is wherepapyrus was uh was chiefly
manufactured.
And then collections ofcollections of papyrus were
given the name Bybilos, the nameof the city.
Okay.
So it's it's it's just all allit means is the the book.
(07:48):
But it's not a book.
It's a it's a collection ofindividual books that happen to
be for convenience put together.
But I could have each one ofthose books individually and um
without them being one singlebook, and I would have them all.
I could have all kinds ofdifferent volumes.
(08:09):
And so what I am trusting, forexample, with Paul or with the
gospel writers, and even withIsaiah, with other people, I'm
trusting the individual'sexperience of their encounter
with God.
And I'm trusting that whatthey're trying to do is be a
(08:29):
witness to the revelation thatthey had encountered in their
experience of God.
So I find that the the scriptthe scriptures, I find them to
be witnesses of individuals thatI have come to trust.
So I don't I'm not putting mytrust in a book.
Right.
I'm putting my trust in theauthors.
In the author.
SPEAKER_07 (08:48):
Okay, but why?
What what is it about thewritings, for example, your
example, of Paul, that leads youto say, I'm gonna trust Paul?
SPEAKER_08 (08:58):
Because when uh first of all, because they are
witnesses to an experience,okay, to an experience of
revelation that they had anencounter, okay.
And when I listen to theirencounter and I listen to the
content, that content i umresonates inside of me.
(09:20):
Thank you.
It resonates inside me.
And say I I say your experienceis matching what mine is.
SPEAKER_07 (09:30):
See that that to me is the key to the authors of the
Bible.
Whatever you want to say aboutit, and and David, I'm I'm gonna
I I know you know the analogythat I can't quote very
perfectly, but there's ananalogy of of a cup that has
water in it, and how we view theholiness, authority, divine
(09:56):
nature of the Bible.
Do you know what I'm referringto?
David?
SPEAKER_08 (10:05):
I don't think David's there.
SPEAKER_11 (10:07):
Yeah, I'm here.
I'm just uh having a hard timeunderstanding.
Can you hear him?
Yeah, your voice is very brokenup.
Father Mario's is clear, but forme, I'm having a really
difficult time making out whatyou're saying.
SPEAKER_08 (10:22):
Well, you know, David, that's not a question of
the hardware.
It's a question of the clarityof my my thoughts.
SPEAKER_11 (10:31):
No, I I I mean I I think you're you're I think that
was good.
SPEAKER_07 (10:36):
But but but David, do do you do you know what I'm
referring to?
Like, is the cup which means thetext holding the divine, or is
it the cup and the water isdivine?
Do you you do you know what I'mYeah.
SPEAKER_08 (10:50):
The water is the the cup is the book, the paper, the
language.
SPEAKER_07 (10:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (10:56):
Okay.
The water is the meaning that isbeing transferred, and when you
taste that meaning through themedium of words, that meaning is
quenching something inside ofyou.
SPEAKER_07 (11:08):
But but the but the question becomes is the water
independent of the cup?
Yes.
And it itself divine, or is itmerely inspired?
No.
SPEAKER_08 (11:21):
I forgot the what do you mean, is the water divine?
Yeah, is the water No the wateris a conduit for the divine.
SPEAKER_07 (11:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (11:30):
The words are themselves are not the words
themselves are like um are likeuh street signs that tell that
point to somewhere.
Okay.
So the divine is not can neverbe anything uh that is created.
It's it the the actual divinityis the the the grace which is
(11:51):
invisible, which is it is Yes,but try changing the words to
the 23rd Psalm and see howpeople react.
SPEAKER_07 (11:58):
They think it's one way and that's it.
SPEAKER_08 (12:02):
Um yeah, but that's but people can be wrong.
SPEAKER_07 (12:04):
People can be wrong.
Be right, yes, that's true.
SPEAKER_08 (12:08):
David.
SPEAKER_11 (12:10):
Yeah, uh again, I'm I'm having I can't understand
anything that Stuart is saying.
It's it's very garbled and verybroken up.
I'm not sure what's happening.
Um I I think I I got a sense ofa little bit of a sense of the
gist of what you were saying.
Um I would I would argue thatrevelation has been happening
(12:30):
now for thousands of years.
And these revelations, umthere's a passage in Paul, we
talked about Paul earlier, whereit says basically that God has
entrusted Israel with theoracles of God, right?
Now he's referring there to theOld Testament, what we call the
(12:51):
Old Testament today or theHebrew Bible.
And and so the whole idea isthat God has entrusted to us
these these particular words,these amazing words, right?
And these words do matter, uh Iwould I would argue.
I think these words docommunicate uh with without
(13:11):
words that communicate andcommunicate clearly, we're we're
not people clearly as we've seentonight.
We're not able to understand it.
So it's not just it's not justnoise, it's not just garble.
There is a word with a message.
And that word with a message canbe uh rendered in in all sorts
of different languages.
(13:32):
In fact, every human language.
Um it is a word of revelation,is a word of revelation that has
come to particular individuals,and these particular
individuals, being faithful,have written down those words,
and that's where I think theBible has this sense of
authority and value.
(13:53):
And with Mario, I think, um, andwith you, Stuart too, from what
I can I can discern, is thatthere is a a sense of of of our
our witness, uh our our spiritbears witness with these words.
They they agree.
There's something in them thatagrees.
And so that agrees with what?
SPEAKER_08 (14:15):
They resonate with the reader.
With the with the the the thepresence of God and truth inside
of you.
SPEAKER_07 (14:23):
In in inside of the reader, though.
SPEAKER_08 (14:25):
Yes.
SPEAKER_07 (14:26):
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I don't think they wouldsurvive in any form at all if
they didn't.
Why why quote the Psalms if theydon't touch us?
Why why why if there's no wisdomin the wisdom literature of the
Proverbs, why mess around withit?
So if it didn't have that.
SPEAKER_08 (14:49):
Well, let me let me tell you though, something that
what really resonates in me, andthat is that we need to go to a
break.
Yes.
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH, and wewill be right back.
SPEAKER_06 (15:01):
December 7th, 1941, a date which will live in
infamy.
United States of America wassuddenly and deliberately
attacked.
SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
America went to war again.
SPEAKER_06 (15:15):
Between the United States and the Japanese Empire.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Today and every day, we salute the members of the
greatest generation who foughtto protect our freedom.
Remembering Pearl Harbor, AM1070 and FM 1033, the answer.
SPEAKER_12 (15:43):
Let's do the twist.
SPEAKER_08 (15:56):
Oh, like this.
SPEAKER_07 (15:57):
There we go.
Oh yeah.
Whatever you memorize this.
This is great.
Okay.
Welcome back to a show of faithon AMT7 the answer.
SPEAKER_08 (16:05):
David, can you understand uh dear rabbits too?
SPEAKER_11 (16:10):
David?
No, I I mean I I can't uh Ican't make out anything he's
saying is so badly uh Yeah, he'snever understood me, so you
know.
But yeah, I'm not sure.
I I've heard distortion before,but never never says this.
SPEAKER_08 (16:25):
Yeah.
Um but can you hear me?
SPEAKER_11 (16:29):
I can hear you pretty well, yeah.
Okay.
Yes.
That's all you need.
All right, David All I need isto is one of you to interpret
the other.
SPEAKER_07 (16:39):
I have no idea what he meant what he means.
David, what is your favoritetranslation besides besides the
one you directed, you you headedup.
SPEAKER_11 (16:55):
Are you asking about my favorite translation?
SPEAKER_12 (16:57):
Yes.
SPEAKER_11 (16:59):
Oh, okay.
Uh I my favorite is the originallanguages, which is Greek and
Hebrew.
Well, I mean, I do think everytime we translate something into
another language, we misssomething.
Uh but in the meantime, I I'mI'm using now the new revised
standard version a lot.
I'm using uh also the uh EnglishStandard Version as well,
(17:20):
although there are problems withboth of those translations.
SPEAKER_07 (17:23):
There's always problems.
It's like the Italian, whichI'll mispronounce, is something
like traditori tradutori, whichmeans the translator is a
traitor.
And I think that that's prettyaccurate.
There's not a singletranslation, Jewish or
otherwise, that I I like.
Because I I like you, I go tothe Hebrew.
(17:43):
Well, you go to the Hebrew andthe Greek, but I go to the
Hebrew, and there's alwayssomething drastically lacking.
When I when I was on the pulpitand I would want to point
something out in that week'sreading, that week's Torah
portion, it wouldn't be in thetranslation.
In invariably, every week.
There's not a single translationI know of that I really enjoy
(18:06):
that I really like.
SPEAKER_08 (18:07):
Well, for me, um being the least learned of the
three of us.
Well, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (18:14):
I disagree with you there, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_08 (18:16):
I do not speak or understand neither Greek nor
Hebrew, but I do understandSpanish.
And that's something you guysdon't.
So um so uh what?
SPEAKER_07 (18:30):
If Rudy were here, he would uh jump in there.
SPEAKER_08 (18:33):
Well yeah, you know, but he he's a kid.
Uh but uh my favoritetranslation um is the NRSV.
SPEAKER_07 (18:42):
Is the newly revised standard version?
Yeah.
Yes.
My NRSV.
See, I I I like the revisedstandard version and the newly
revised standard version.
Yeah.
Because sometimes, not all thetime, but sometimes, if they've
chosen a translation based onsomething other than the Hebrew,
sometimes they'll tell you aboutit.
(19:02):
And then they'll say, but theHebrew says in the notes
underneath.
Yeah.
That that's the RSV and the NRSVdo that.
SPEAKER_08 (19:09):
Yeah.
I I I really now the English,what David, what is the name of
that?
The English Bible?
The English Standard V uhversion of the Bible.
That is very beautiful, too.
SPEAKER_11 (19:21):
Yeah, it's well done.
I mean, you know, I as Stuartknows, uh, I was involved in a
translation project a number ofyears ago, uh, and I found more
and more times that I've agreedwith what the King James Bible
had said.
Um the way it rendered things,the artful way.
There was there was a beauty toit uh that that we don't see in
(19:43):
a lot of translations as they'retrying to uh in a way make them
more understandable, moremodern, et cetera.
But uh it we sometimes you loseout, particularly on poetry,
where you you you don't get thisthis poetic sense that you you
have.
Found in in other trans in otherin the King James, that is.
SPEAKER_07 (20:04):
Or it becomes so poetic that it loses its
connection with the original.
There are words that sneak inbecause they're poetic sounding,
but there is no word in theentire v verse where that word
used in the translation appears.
SPEAKER_08 (20:22):
Can you understand him at all, David?
SPEAKER_07 (20:26):
Can you hear me or not hear me?
Understand me or hear me?
Which one do you mean?
SPEAKER_08 (20:30):
Understand.
SPEAKER_07 (20:32):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (20:32):
I think David can hear you.
SPEAKER_07 (20:34):
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (20:34):
But David, can you understand him?
SPEAKER_07 (20:40):
David?
I think David just clicked offsomehow.
But what I'm for example, uh ina translation, they might,
instead of saying, The Lord ismy shepherd, I shall not want,
they might say, The Lord is myshepherd, I shall not want food.
(21:02):
But the word food doesn't appearin the Hebrew.
But not that, that's a poorexample.
But what I'm trying to refer tois where they're trying to sound
poetic and they will add wordslike that because they make it
poetic sounding, but they're notin the original.
Yeah.
It's really taking libertieswith the translation.
And there are plenty oftranslations that do that.
(21:23):
Drives me crazy.
SPEAKER_08 (21:24):
Yeah, I think that the um the the NRSV and the
English version are pretty goodabout the.
No, they don't do that.
But like for example, when youread the the expanded Bible.
SPEAKER_07 (21:36):
The what?
SPEAKER_08 (21:37):
The expanded Bible?
Um documentary.
No, it's not a tran is that aCatholic translation?
No, it's Protestant.
It's a Protestant.
SPEAKER_07 (21:45):
Expanded translation?
SPEAKER_08 (21:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (21:49):
I'll look it up.
SPEAKER_11 (21:49):
I've never I'm trying to remember the exact
title of it, but but it does, itit takes and expands upon it
doesn't expand the meaning, butit it takes uh rather than
choosing a single singularmeeting, uh meaning for a word,
sometimes it'll show the rangeof meanings with that word.
SPEAKER_08 (22:08):
Yeah.
It it it and it puts them inparentheses or something like
that.
But like a never heard of it.
Yeah, a word and it'll i it'sactually not bad, but it's kind
of disruptive when you're tryingto read the scriptures and all
of a sudden they're giving youthey're actually telling you,
well, this word could betranslated as this, this, this,
(22:29):
this, and they put it inside thetext.
SPEAKER_07 (22:32):
Okay.
So i it's just uh But youwouldn't call it a paraphrase.
SPEAKER_08 (22:36):
No, it's not a paraphrase.
SPEAKER_07 (22:37):
Okay.
So no It's just picking whichtranslation which they want to
use.
SPEAKER_08 (22:44):
They're actually going through verse by verse,
and whenever there is acontention as to the
translation, they'll give youall the words that it could
possibly be being interpreted.
SPEAKER_12 (22:56):
Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_11 (22:57):
So yeah, I mean part of it's just the tr the
challenge of doing translations,Stuart was talking about.
Uh there are there are lots ofdifficulties with trying to
create a translation.
Um because words don't have aone-for-one kind of uh uh
(23:18):
equality, there is a sense.
Uh it may take four Englishwords to create and say what
we're doing.
SPEAKER_07 (23:25):
Right.
From one language to another.
Yep.
That's true.
Because to convey the meaning ofthe word, it might need more
words in a different language.
SPEAKER_11 (23:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (23:37):
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_11 (23:41):
One of the things Stuart, and we can come back to
uh and talk about this a littlebit later, but w one of the
things Stuart talked about wasthat he didn't really want to
get into interpretation.
But I I don't know that we cantalk about this effectively
without re regarding how youknow, just because uh um, let's
(24:01):
say one of the things thatChristians don't believe is that
there's 700 different meaningsto every text, you know, um that
you can trans you can prettymuch just say whatever it is you
think or feel at that particularmoment, and that's what the text
means.
There are there are reasonableuh ways of going after and
(24:23):
interpreting a text and sayingwhat the text means.
So I think we'd want to avoidtrying to give people the in the
the idea that just go out thereand uh read it and just whatever
it means to you, that's what itmeans.
But David, I hear that all thetime.
SPEAKER_07 (24:42):
But I hear that all the time because people will say
even today, by the way, I readpeople saying, Well, I you know,
the Holy Spirit spoke to me andtold me this is what it means,
and one person said they evenwrote a book about it because
the Holy Spirit spoke directlyto them about the meaning of
something.
(25:02):
So it happens.
SPEAKER_08 (25:04):
The Holy Spirit just talked to me.
SPEAKER_07 (25:05):
And said, let's go to a break.
SPEAKER_08 (25:07):
That's right.
1070, Candy A, and we'll beright back.
SPEAKER_03 (25:11):
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unknown (27:13):
Johnny Angel.
SPEAKER_05 (27:15):
Johnny Angel Johnny Angel.
You're an angel to shake.
Johnny Angel, how I love him.
How I tingle when he passes byevery time he says hello, my
(27:37):
heartbeat begins to fly.
SPEAKER_07 (27:42):
You scared me.
SPEAKER_08 (27:48):
He's got something that I can't say.
You know, I've often wondered.
But what I know to be love is sodifferent from falling in love.
SPEAKER_07 (28:15):
Yes, we talked about that last week.
SPEAKER_08 (28:17):
I know.
SPEAKER_07 (28:17):
I just find it so you just wanted to remind people
what we said.
SPEAKER_08 (28:20):
You know, no, I I when she when she said Johnny
Angel, he's got something that Ican't resist.
And what is it that what is itthat is occurring inside of us
when you fall in love that youcan't resist something in the
other?
There's something of God there,but I don't know what of God
(28:40):
because it doesn't it's theyearning.
Yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_07 (28:43):
There's a it's a parallel of yearning.
I'm yearning for the other andyearning for the other.
SPEAKER_08 (28:49):
I am constantly I am obsessed with figuring out what
it means to be human.
SPEAKER_07 (28:54):
To be human.
That's what religion's allabout.
SPEAKER_08 (28:58):
So anyway, it's not much.
SPEAKER_07 (29:00):
As a matter of fact, I always say that in the same
way that a computer is appliedmathematics, religion is applied
psychology.
SPEAKER_08 (29:07):
Well, actually, that's you know who would agree
with you?
A gentleman by the name of CarlRahner.
Great theologian Carl CarlRahner.
SPEAKER_07 (29:17):
Oh, of course, yes.
SPEAKER_08 (29:18):
He would say he would say theology is
anthropology amplified.
SPEAKER_07 (29:23):
Right.
Well, speaking of anthropology,okay.
Mario, uh we when we began ourconversation, you said that you
put your faith in Paul.
SPEAKER_08 (29:36):
No, I put my faith in God speaking through Paul.
SPEAKER_07 (29:40):
But what did you then what did you say about
Paul's writing?
SPEAKER_08 (29:43):
That Paul's writing.
You trust Paul.
I trust him.
SPEAKER_07 (29:46):
Okay.
And every book of the Bible hasan author, okay, or or a
transcriber, if you prefer.
Okay, so God speaks speech witha God's speech came through
humans.
SPEAKER_08 (30:03):
That's right.
SPEAKER_07 (30:04):
Humans wrote it down, humans tr uh you know,
kept it going, handed it down toa generation, which handed it
down to another generation.
There is a trust there, a faiththere.
But doesn't that mean that allreligion becomes the religion of
men?
SPEAKER_08 (30:24):
Well, all religion is received by men.
So it's not of men, but allisn't it?
SPEAKER_07 (30:32):
No.
But if we're trusting atranslation of men.
SPEAKER_08 (30:35):
Yeah, but we believe that those translations are
inspired.
SPEAKER_07 (30:40):
Well, that's what led me to the cup analogy I
couldn't explain very well.
SPEAKER_08 (30:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (30:45):
Because is it inspired of God?
Is it not inspired, but theactual word of God?
No.
There's an analogy somebodywrote with a cup of water.
I just don't remember what itis.
SPEAKER_08 (30:55):
See, the me it's the meaning.
So I always like to compare thisto the Quran.
Because in the Quran, God isactually dictating the words of
the Quran to Mohammed.
So there is a one-to-onerelationship of God speaking to
(31:16):
Mohammed.
There is no translation that canbe done.
It is God's word.
SPEAKER_07 (31:21):
Now in the Arabic.
In Arabic God speaking to Mosesand creating the five books of
Moses.
SPEAKER_08 (31:27):
I know, but see, for example, i i i it's it's i it's
uh in the Quran it is adictation.
And in the Bible, it iscommunication, not dictation.
Communication meaning God may beusing the context, the the
meaning, the customs of thetime, and all of that to the the
(31:50):
people that are being so it'swhat we you and I call
understand as progressiverevelation, that God is not God
is accommodating himself to theculture of the people so that he
can make himself understood.
But just like you would talk,baby talk to a baby, you and
then as the Right, you have tospeak the language of the person
(32:11):
to whom you're talking.
SPEAKER_07 (32:12):
That's right.
SPEAKER_08 (32:12):
Right.
But you know, the Quran, that'snot the case.
That's not the case.
SPEAKER_07 (32:16):
There is no dictation, those words came from
God.
SPEAKER_08 (32:21):
And they are not culturally in the R.
SPEAKER_07 (32:23):
There's kind of a feeling like that with the
Torah, with the five books ofMoses and mo and receiving it
from God.
SPEAKER_08 (32:30):
Yes, if we would not.
SPEAKER_07 (32:33):
But it's only the Torah, it's only the five books
of Moses.
You can't you cannot read thebook of Psalms and think that
the all the sentiments in therecame from God.
SPEAKER_08 (32:42):
Yeah, no.
The Catholic understanding wouldbe the whole scripture is is
culturally isn't culturallyconditioned.
SPEAKER_07 (32:53):
But if it's culturally conditioned, it's
culturally conditioned accordingto what men write, that's
correct, transcribe, transmit,translate.
SPEAKER_08 (33:03):
Which is ultimately for us, okay?
That's why ultimately what?
For us, ultimately, it cannot beinterpreted by us without the
insights of the Holy Spirit,without God helping us to
interpret it.
SPEAKER_07 (33:17):
Okay, David, do you have a comment?
SPEAKER_11 (33:22):
Yeah, uh I I I think I'm following what you're
saying.
Yeah, the the the whole ideathat I think you're you're
aiming at here is is the thenotion that yeah, in one form
there's dictation, in the otherthere is just, as you said,
communication or communicationevent in which God has inspired
(33:43):
somebody to write something.
And then it's inspired both it'snot only inspired to be written,
but it's also preserved.
Yes, right in a way.
Right.
And so a part of a part of thepreservation, a part of
inspiration, is that God haschosen to preserve certain of
these texts and not other texts.
(34:04):
Most texts from the ancientworld have been lost.
You know, they they just go awaybecause that there they didn't
seem to have any value, I think,both from the community
standpoint, but also from thestandpoint of the uh of God.
God there were a lot of bookswritten, he said no to these
particular books.
But there was a process, a veryrigorous process for choosing
(34:27):
which books were included uh inthe the the Christian Bible.
Same thing with the JewishBible, too.
Absolutely.
Anything in is you know, theGenesis Apocryphon is not there.
Uh the book of Jubilees is notin the Hebrew Bible, for
example.
Uh although these are dealingwith Hebrew characters and times
(34:49):
and those kind of things.
The other thing is when youthink about it, all of this is
culturally conditioned.
SPEAKER_12 (34:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_11 (34:56):
I mean, even the language something comes in is
culturally conditioned.
That's great.
Absolutely.
You know, or some other, youknow, in Chinese.
Uh the language itself, theculture itself is reflective of
these things.
So good interpretation takes allof these contexts into
(35:18):
consideration as we read them inthe modern times against the
ancient cultures.
SPEAKER_08 (35:25):
But if you were David, you would you would you
say though, that um withoutbringing in God Himself, the
Holy Spirit, um, to help us toget the correct interpretation,
it without including that in theguarantee of of the transfer of
meaning, I don't think we couldactually uh be sure of anything.
(35:49):
That's why to me, uh a personwho has no faith, no no sense of
of uh communion with God, Iwould not trust them to be able
to uh interpret the scripturescorrectly.
Would you?
SPEAKER_11 (36:03):
Oh, that's that's exactly right.
I I refer to that particularelement is illumination.
Um inspiration is the process ofcreating and preserving these
texts.
When the Holy Spirit, when weencounter these texts through
the power of the Spirit, then uhwe are illuminated in the same
way that the ancients were.
(36:24):
Uh our culture is different, ourtimes are different, our
language is different, but westill face this uh wonderful
gift on our side of illuminationfrom each things, and they speak
to us in in various and sundryways.
And people all across the globetestify to this idea at some
(36:45):
point when they come to faith inJesus and and and are reading
the text that as Father Mariosaid, there's something in their
spirit that agrees with that,that speaks to them, and and
these texts are a way ofcorrecting us when we're wrong,
of encouraging us when we'reright, of of teaching us when we
(37:08):
need to be taught.
So they are they arefundamentally useful to us, um,
and they are helpful to us inshaping our lives and and
leading us to to God and and tosalvation.
SPEAKER_07 (37:22):
See, David, Mario said something that it sh that
you are lucky because you hadthe best of both worlds.
You could be an academician, youcould have an academic viewpoint
of religion in general, theBible specifically, but because
you were teaching in a Christianenvironment, you didn't have to
(37:46):
lose your uh I don't know whatto call it.
SPEAKER_08 (37:50):
Illumination, by the way.
SPEAKER_07 (37:52):
Yeah.
But but my impression ofacademic study, of pure academic
study of the Bible, of religionin general, of of anything in
religion, is that they they haveno they have no respect.
No, that's not the right word.
They have no connection to thedivine.
(38:13):
And so they're so academic thatand they're so deeply trying to
maintain this level ofobjectivity that there's
something to be lost.
That's why I never wanted to bea professor on a college campus.
SPEAKER_08 (38:26):
It's interesting because what's happening too is
that they are excluding the umthe the the deeper understanding
in terms that a person who hasfaith can can have.
And since they are limitingthemselves to historical, to uh
(38:47):
uh linguistic analysis and stufflike that, they cannot for at
all interpret the deeper.
SPEAKER_07 (38:53):
Exactly.
See that that's that's see Davidcan do that because he's on a
religious canvas.
SPEAKER_08 (38:58):
For me, I just want to say one last thing for us,
for me as a Catholic, this wouldbe excluding David a little bit,
and that is that for us, theultimate interpretation of any
text is uh uh reserved to thehierarchy uh of the church.
Because we don't we we don'tbelieve any w any that we
(39:20):
believe that the fullinterpretation of any text has
to be done m especially by thePope and the well and the
bishops, because ultimately youcan interpret the you can say,
God told me that this, God toldme that.
SPEAKER_07 (39:33):
Right, anybody can, but if you're outside the the
chain, that's what you mean byhierarchy.
You can come up with anything.
SPEAKER_08 (39:39):
That's right.
That's why the the the theultimate interpretation for us
is okay, when you have ten toten different people saying it
means ten different things, yousay, What does the hierarchy
say?
Because we believe that thehierarchy is is being guided by
the Holy Spirit for that.
SPEAKER_07 (39:56):
Ultimately Judaism is not the religion of the of
the Hebrew scriptures.
It's not the religion of the OldTestament.
It's the religion of the 4,000year history of the relationship
of the Jewish people to theHebrew scriptures.
And how they've looked at it andanalyzed it and made it current
(40:18):
and Catholicism, Protestantismis the same thing.
It's not the religion of the NewTestament.
It's the religion of theinterpretation of the New
Testament over 2,000 years.
SPEAKER_08 (40:27):
Okay, I wouldn't disagree with that, but you know
what I would disagree with?
SPEAKER_07 (40:30):
Then we have to go to a break.
How can I read you so well?
SPEAKER_08 (40:33):
Because we've been on each other for a long time
and we look at the clock.
That's right, this is AMTH 1070and we'll be right back.
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SPEAKER_11 (42:39):
Sunday night at 9 1 a.m let me say I I would a
(43:19):
couple of things uh number oneone of the things Protestants
try to do is try to avoid ainterpretation and a value of
scripture that is just for thehead only that is just for the
academic we we think that humanbeing being human beings going
(43:40):
back to Father Mario's questionabout anthropology we are both
heads and hearts uh people of ofI wouldn't say emotion is as
much as devotion uh people ofdevotion so we we join together
as often as we can the theacademic the head reading with
(44:01):
the heart reading I think that'sthat's important to say we don't
have a hierarchy who caninterpret the text the way that
Father Mario uh described but wedo have a 2,000 years of
Christian tradition.
We have the early church fatherswho were individuals that were
within the same roughly the sameculture, the same time, the same
(44:23):
language and we look to themvery often as kind of for
clarity and in trying tounderstand what uh what these
people of the first century atthe time of Jesus were were
saying.
So we we do hold high in ourconsideration and interpretation
not only the the the the kind ofthe academic the head stuff but
(44:46):
also the devotion and thetradition self that that has
been reading these texts now forthe last two thousand years.
But basically Christian textbasically David you would be I
would say that uh uh Protestantsdo not have a supreme court we
don't no we don't yeah that'sand and there are a lot of
(45:08):
different versions ofProtestantism too I mean there
are bishops within certain ranksand and church and
denominations.
SPEAKER_08 (45:14):
No because he go ahead.
SPEAKER_07 (45:16):
Well I was just gonna say but David there's
still some people's writingsthat are going to be much much
more influential than others andI'm gonna get the name wrong but
there's a William Henrycommentary that I've looked at a
lot you know it's been a while.
SPEAKER_11 (45:34):
William Henry is that the name Yeah I I mean
there's certain there arecertain resources that we look
to uh exactly as being more morevaluable and more helpful than
others uh we're always sort oflooking for the the better
commentary the better resourcethe better uh contextual
references to help us get asense of what the text are so
(45:56):
we're constantly in that sort ofsearch for and dealing with the
ancient cultures, the ancientlanguages and such in order to
try to read these texts for alltheir work.
SPEAKER_08 (46:06):
Yeah but you know David I I I I I I still find it
uh hard um to um to see howProtestantism and granted that's
not even okay it's it's it's umalmost a word that doesn't mean
anything but it it's I I I waswatching this weekend a a a
(46:27):
chronology on YouTube of thedestruction of the Episcopal
church and the Anglican church.
The destruction of it Oh god yesI mean uh they were they were uh
analyzing the membership of theAnglican and the Episcopal
church from the nineteen fiftiesall the way up to today.
You mean like over issues andsplitting individual churches
(46:48):
kind of thing or yeah and andthe fact that uh I think that uh
they have gone down by sixtysome percent uh in terms of
attendance and the the wholeidea of of female now which you
w with what you have with theArchbishop of Canterbury uh
being a woman you know now anduh gay uh gay unions and gay
(47:10):
priesthood and normalizing thatand it's both Anglican which is
uh England and the Episcopalwhich is very interesting
because the you could see thatthere was no uh ultimate Supreme
Court.
And when there was a real distuh a real difference of opinion
(47:31):
um there the only the onlyability to do that to resolve
that was to split and uh it'sinteresting because I I was
listening to a commentator uh onthat and he was used the example
of the United States and he'ssaying imagine that a group in
the United States doesn't agreewith uh the interpretation of
(47:53):
the Constitution and so whatthey do is they try and secede
which is what basically theCivil War was.
So if you know without if youdon't have a Supreme Court in
some way or another you're indanger of uh constantly
splitting.
SPEAKER_11 (48:09):
Would would you would you agree with that David
Yeah I I I would I would I thinkthat that is one of the
challenges Protestants do haveum in terms of the record let me
just say that that Anglicanismthe Anglican church consists of
a of a lot of differentcommunions groups and only in
(48:31):
the United States or in the Westis it receding at that rate at
that 60% rate Anglicanism in inChina Anglicanism in in Europe
uh I'm sorry in in Africa uhSouth America it's very very
strong David um vocabularylesson you said the Anglican
(48:54):
church had different communionsand I'm not clear on the meaning
um well let me there's there'sthe Anglican Church of North
America which is on theconservative side socially and
theologically is that the sameas Episcopalian the Episcopal
(49:15):
church is the Anglican communionin the United States Episcopal
church.
So that's the one that uh he uhFather Mara was referring to
that is the people who thinkthat they've gone too far to the
left yeah um in the social andand and theological sense.
SPEAKER_08 (49:33):
David could you say that the Anglican that that the
Anglican church in itself doesnot exist anymore that it exists
as a bunch of differentdenominations I wouldn't say
that at all.
SPEAKER_11 (49:48):
I would I would say that it's changing it's evolving
it's shaping this is this ispost Vatican uh two kind of uh
uh changes you know that thathave gone on and uh it it's it's
fairly extreme and there aregoing to be some people that
that have their trouble findingtheir foothold in in that in
(50:10):
both of those but but theworldwide Anglican communion the
larger sense is on the moreconservative side of the but
wouldn't you say that that thatthe only thing that's holding
them a not all of them but holda lot of them together is just
the name because it's I don'tthink so because if you uh the
(50:30):
there's a there's a documentcalled the thirty nine articles
which is in the Book of CommonPrayer which is thirty nine
doctrinal elements basically andI would say that uh every
Anglican um communion everyAnglican group will um look to
those statements as beingauthoritative as being you know
(50:52):
a kind of a guide to faith it isin a way it's it's it analogy
wise it's kind of like the uhthe hierarchy yeah it's it's a
document that that nobody Idon't think people are
contesting that they'recontesting other things about it
necessarily uh uh that that aremore social these days theologi
the liberalism etc yeah andconservativism but I but I I
(51:16):
think there's a whole lotholding Anglicans together.
SPEAKER_07 (51:19):
Okay I don't think it's just a bunch of disparate
uh congregations that are thatare coming it's coming to be
also when you talk about theAnglican which is England which
is Europe they're having allsorts of problems with the
Christian community or you knowbecause of other pressures.
(51:39):
So not I'm not convinced thatthat's related to the internal
denominationalism but ratherjust simply the European culture
and takeover.
Yeah so all right we're uhalmost out of time but very
interesting topic I I have aanother question but we may not
(52:02):
have time for any real dealingwith it and that is you know
that I've said that the book ofEcclesiastes is my favorite book
of the Bible that's not what I'masking the book of the Bible but
in the Bible there areindividual stories or narratives
I I would say that my favoritenarrative would probably be Poro
that would probably be the bookof Esther.
(52:23):
Do you all have a favoritenarrative favorite singular
story like a section of a bookor just John chapter one okay
but that's not a narrativethat's not a story.
SPEAKER_08 (52:36):
In the beginning was the word and the word was with
God and well that's my favorite.
SPEAKER_11 (52:41):
But that's still your favorite okay David um you
know I refuse to answer thatquestion is on the grounds that
it might increase incriminateyou okay um no look whatever
well honestly whatever I'mworking on at that moment is
kind of my favorite I'm I'mwriting now my a second book on
the book of Matthew so Icontinue to uh find that book
(53:03):
exhilarating interesting butchallenging my one of my next
projects is going to be writinga commentary on the book of
Philippians and when I get tothat in a few years a couple of
years down the road I'm gonnaI'm just gonna be eating
drinking and thinkingPhilippians all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (53:19):
So it's sort of it it just you know I don't have
any favorites honestly I findthem all interesting and and
elevating and uh all boats riseuh when it comes to scripture
all right that's actually prettygood I think so I still my still
John is my still my favoritebutton say it again John is
still my favorite right yeahwell but do you trust do you
(53:45):
trust John I do trust John okayall right good good for you
faithful witnesses who's incharge next week um gosh I think
Rudy no I think it's David thatmay be me so God willing I'll be
(54:06):
better I'll be feeling betterhave gotten over COVID and I
will be ready David Mario meadDavid then Rudy so David you're
next you're next right there wego and hopefully we'll have Rudy
back yes yes yes he got aninvitation to go watch a uh
children's choir concert forChristmas ah yes yes the
(54:30):
children's choir right that's abig big draw thank you for
listening to us here on the showof faith please join this week
keep us in your prayers becauseyou are going to be finding at
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K N T H and K two seventy sevenD E F M Houston
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