October 12, 2025 • 55 mins
A week like this forces hard questions to the surface. A beloved public figure is killed from a rooftop in Utah, a young woman bleeds out on a train in North Carolina, and a familiar claim spreads online: maybe speech is violence.
We lean into the discomfort and ask what a faithful response to political violence really looks like—without surrendering either courage or charity.
We begin by defining political violence and then test that definition against the facts, not the feeds. From there, we examine the “permission structures” that heat the civic pot: when rhetoric treats disagreement as erasure, when leniency erodes public safety, and when televised horror makes the rare feel routine.
The conversation turns to Catholic moral reasoning—self-defense, just war, and Richard John Neuhaus’s stark line: “Violence, when justified, is not an option but a sad duty.” We revisit the Vatican’s clandestine choices during World War II to frame how moral agency can resist evil without performative outrage that costs lives.
The second half navigates the most delicate claim: did this killing bear the marks of martyrdom? We weigh the public witness of faith, the hatred that targets it, and the paradox that assassination often amplifies a message instead of silencing it. Along the way, we grapple with data showing long-term declines in violent crime, even as our screens deliver cruelty in real time, and we discuss practical changes—from event security to the way we argue on campus and online—that can temper the temperature without curbing free speech.
If you’re looking for tidy answers, you won’t find them here. What you will hear is a clear moral spine: forgive what feels unforgivable because grace reached us first; tell the truth without venom; defend the innocent without celebrating force; and keep the public square open to complex questions. If that resonates, follow the show, share this episode with a friend who thinks deeply, and leave a review to help others find the conversation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_08 (00:06):
Oh, I can hardly hear anything.
Just listen.
What it is pain and stack.
I can't hear anything.
There's a hand with a little up,a little more up.
Perfect.
Hello, people.
(00:27):
I guess you're listening.
Hello and welcome to the show offaith.
We're a minister, priest, rabbi,and millennial.
Uh what do we do here?
SPEAKER_05 (00:47):
Discuss philosophy.
SPEAKER_08 (00:49):
Discuss philosophy, theology, we discuss religion.
SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
I mean important stuff.
SPEAKER_08 (00:56):
Important stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (00:57):
Right.
We we leave we leave nothing tounimportant stuff to other
people.
Yes, yes, we do.
But we do the important stuff.
SPEAKER_08 (01:04):
So Stuart Stewart, uh the rabbi, is not here
tonight.
SPEAKER_05 (01:08):
Yeah, he is traveling right now.
He is traveling.
He is uh uh seldom on vacation,but I think he's vacating.
He's going to see family and uhand friends in California and
Seattle, as I heard.
SPEAKER_08 (01:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (01:21):
Yeah.
So and and you're actually here.
SPEAKER_08 (01:25):
What do you mean I'm actually here?
SPEAKER_05 (01:26):
I mean I mean you're you're here.
You're not on vacation.
SPEAKER_08 (01:29):
No, I I'm I am probably out of the th the all
of us the one who's here themost.
SPEAKER_05 (01:34):
You probably that's true, because you're the most
faithful.
SPEAKER_08 (01:37):
I'm the most faithful.
You're the most faithful.
That's when when I go to Jesusand he says, Welcome, you are
the most faithful.
SPEAKER_05 (01:46):
He says that too often, does he?
SPEAKER_08 (01:48):
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_05 (01:50):
So this is Father Mario Arroyo.
SPEAKER_08 (01:52):
I am Father Mario Arroyo.
SPEAKER_05 (01:54):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_08 (01:55):
Uh I'm from Cuba, that's why rung.
And I am the retired pastor ofSt.
Cyril of Alexandria CatholicChurch.
And who are you?
SPEAKER_05 (02:03):
Well, I am David Capes.
I am the director of academicprogramming at the Lanier
Theological Library in Houston,Texas.
SPEAKER_08 (02:12):
And who is the guy, that young guy who's on the
phone?
SPEAKER_05 (02:15):
He's a young guy.
You know, we just picked him uplast week.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (02:18):
Uh I heard he was in the gutter.
SPEAKER_05 (02:21):
Um, yeah, he might have been.
What now?
Rudy.
SPEAKER_07 (02:26):
Off the street.
SPEAKER_08 (02:27):
Yeah, in the gutter.
You know?
In the gutter.
SPEAKER_05 (02:35):
Rudy lives down in Guatemala and he joins us.
He's got a master's degree in intheology from St.
Thomas.
And or St.
Thomas, that's right.
Yeah, St.
Thomas.
I almost said St.
Mary's, but I don't know.
St.
Thomas.
SPEAKER_07 (02:50):
I did go to uh St.
Mary's, actually, in San Antoniofor two years.
You did?
SPEAKER_05 (02:56):
But your your your real job is as a kind of an
engineer type, right?
SPEAKER_07 (03:02):
I I am.
I am a systems engineer bytrade.
And I am uh essentially doing uhoh Lord, I don't even know what
I do.
We're we're building aresidential building down here
in Guatemala, and I'm alsostarting a new business, which I
(03:22):
can tell you guys about later,but that's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_05 (03:26):
Wow, starting a new business.
Fantastic.
Well, I'd love to know more andmore about that.
Um at some at some point downthe road.
Now see, Father Mario keepspointing to Miranda who's on the
board.
SPEAKER_08 (03:37):
Because I like it.
Oh, and now it's getting just alittle bit more, Miranda.
SPEAKER_05 (03:41):
See, earlier I told her to turn it down because
there we go.
SPEAKER_08 (03:45):
Now that's fine.
SPEAKER_05 (03:45):
But I'm gonna tell her to turn it down.
No, yes, it's too loud.
No, you're hurting my ears.
I you don't care, do you?
SPEAKER_08 (03:53):
You hurt my ears by what you say.
Okay, David is our showdirector.
SPEAKER_05 (04:00):
Yeah, I'm the show director, and you know, I I got
back from from Eastern Europe,and uh one of the big events of
the week was the the shooting,the shooting death of Charlie
Kirk.
Some people are sayingassassination.
SPEAKER_08 (04:18):
No, it's an assassination.
SPEAKER_05 (04:19):
Well, I think it probably is.
SPEAKER_08 (04:21):
What else could it be?
SPEAKER_05 (04:22):
Well, I know people are pushing back on that.
SPEAKER_08 (04:24):
What are they what else?
What's the alternative?
SPEAKER_05 (04:26):
It's just uh random show.
I I don't know.
No, it it really wasintentional.
It was targeted.
SPEAKER_08 (04:33):
It's an assassination.
SPEAKER_05 (04:35):
Yeah.
So the assassination of uhCharlie Kirk this past week in
Utah, and uh it just it ittriggered in me the desire to
talk about political violencetonight.
And and we could we couldbroaden that to say violence in
general, because right beforethat this event, this this
(04:56):
horrible event in Utah, therewas another horrible event in
North Carolina.
SPEAKER_08 (05:00):
Yeah, the stabbing of that young girl.
SPEAKER_05 (05:02):
There was a young girl from uh Yana?
Uh I'm I have her name here in aminute.
I'll I'll pick it up.
SPEAKER_07 (05:10):
But um wonderful Irina Zarutska.
Stabbed in uh in a rail, in alight rail.
SPEAKER_05 (05:22):
Yeah, on a light rail train, and the fellow was
sitting behind her and uh gotup.
You know, she just she was goingto work, she came home.
I mean, she was coming home fromwork, just minding her own
business, sat down on the train,and here he was, um, sitting
behind her, and for reasons noteven God knows, I don't think,
(05:44):
you know, he he he stabbed herin the neck and she bled out
right there, and uh there was nono chance for her.
So a random act of violence.
She just happened to be in thewrong place at the sitting in
front of the wrong person whohad who had uh a lot of prior
convictions, prior prior arrestsand prior convictions, and who
(06:08):
had been let out, let out, letout.
Um and and then, you know, therewere questions of mental health.
There's all at any rate, the pthe point is that there this
seems to be a season that we'rein of a lot of violence.
And we had two assassinationattempts on President Trump uh w
(06:28):
when he was candidate Trump inthis last last election.
And I yeah, I'm I'm justwondering what kind of moment
that we're living through andwhat is to be a Christian
response to political violencein particular tonight.
(06:49):
Let me give you let me give youa kind of a working definition.
What is I I guess we could wecould begin by saying what is
political violence?
And here's a definition.
It's the use of force orcoercion by groups or by states
(07:09):
to achieve a political aim.
SPEAKER_08 (07:13):
But what about individuals?
SPEAKER_05 (07:15):
Well, the individual could well belong to a group,
not necessarily coordinatedgroup, but has been radicalized
by a group, has been uh trainedby m clearly that that he seems
to have been a loan shooter, butthat may may not prove to be the
(07:37):
case.
It might have been severalpeople who were involved, who
knows down the road.
We don't we don't have enoughinformation yet.
But the fact is that this fellowwho came up in a in a Republican
home, apparently, his parentswere Republican, had begun to
change.
He he was he was he he had madehe had made the decision to get
(08:03):
the rifle, put the rifle inspace in the in the place, and
then to to go and assassinate orto attempt to assassinate
Charlie Kirk.
And and and he he he had a hehad he had the shot.
And it and it killed him, and itwas a w one hit one shot, which
is all it takes with for the 30aught six.
That's a big caliber weapon.
(08:26):
And a 30 aught six at a hundredyards velocity is incredible.
Any s any sort of shot to thehead and it's pretty much over
at that point.
SPEAKER_08 (08:36):
I heard a distinction that I think that I
found very useful.
Uh the one who gave me thisdistinction was Ben Shapiro.
But he said, Imagine that uhthat the um uh the pol the body
politic is a cauldron or uh youknow a pot.
(08:58):
And underneath that pot there isa small fire.
The more you stoke that fire,and the bigger it gets, the
hotter the pot gets, and themore it bubbles.
And the more it the more thefire goes up, the hotter the the
the bubbles the the more of theboiling in the water.
(09:19):
And sooner or later the waterthe water will boil over.
The the the fire itself did notum make any any part of that or
any bubble of that water fallover.
But the ones who stoked it didhit heat the water enough for
(09:43):
the b water to boil and to comeover.
Uh Charlie I mean uh um BenShapiro called the the the the
fire underneath the body politicand especially the left wing.
Not all Democrats but the leftwing.
(10:03):
And he says that what they didis they maybe they didn't pull
the trigger, but they dideverything they could to create
the permission structures for inother words they increased the
heat by their their um rhetoricthat they the the water in the
(10:25):
body body politic began tobubble and some of it began to
spill over.
I found that the uhunderstanding of the whole idea
of creating permissionstructures because in society
you have permission structuresthat uh are um that are
(10:49):
established by all kinds ofdifferent things.
And also um a what what's theopposite of permission?
SPEAKER_05 (10:58):
Um, forbidding structures.
SPEAKER_08 (11:04):
And I think he uh Ben Ben Shapiro is correct on
that.
That uh if you look at the atthe violence, the political
violence that has been created,also maybe not directly
political, but it for example, iit is the left that is
responsible.
The man who killed that girl inhim.
(11:27):
Why would I blame the left?
Because they refuse to convictpeople and they refuse to put
them in jail.
And that is a left-wingunderstanding of permission that
establishes the permissionpermission structure.
Okay, the assassination attemptson on President Trump, the
(11:48):
killing of Charlie Kirk.
And if you go back to all thedifferent um attempts or
violences, that they are um theyare and have been persons who
have been benefited or havereacted to the left-wing
permission structures that havebeen foisted on society.
(12:12):
There's quite a few, forexample, um uh uh shootings that
have been done by the transcommunity.
That doesn't mean that becauseyou're trans, you're going to
commit violence.
But that does mean that a lot ofpeople who are troubled and have
other problems think that, oh,they can blame it on trans and
(12:32):
they can try they can try andtrans, and then they find out
they're disappointed because itdidn't fix anything, and they
begin blaming society becauseyou are still oppressing me
since the trans thing didn'twork.
Okay, and so they blame societyand enough enough to the point
that they become become angryand they wish to kill the people
(12:55):
because they blame.
Because this whole idea ofviolent that speech is now
violence because you are erasingme.
So having an opinion that iscontrary to yours, especially on
on much of the left, is to havean opinion that erases my being.
It's not just an opinion now,it's my self-identity.
(13:17):
And that means you're attackingme.
And if you're attacking me, Ihave a right to defend myself.
And so if you look at all thepolicies of the left, they
encourage, not that, not thatthey go and say kill, but they
establish the environment thatgives rise to the permission
structure that has the bubblingover that is the murders that
(13:41):
are going on.
SPEAKER_05 (13:43):
And I think about that the murder of that uh the
executive with United Health.
SPEAKER_08 (13:48):
The same thing.
SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Yeah, and and the response to that, which
surprised the heck out of me.
SPEAKER_08 (13:52):
That's right.
SPEAKER_05 (13:53):
That that that kind even even though people might
really have issues withinsurance companies, the fact
that they would be celebrating.
SPEAKER_08 (14:01):
And not only that, it's right now 70 over 70
percent of people on the leftagree with that the the the
proposition that it is okayperiodically that you kill the
uh the the members uh that areobstructing you.
Uh 25 percent of right wing dothat, but 70 percent of the left
(14:25):
does it.
SPEAKER_05 (14:26):
Yeah.
As a Christian, what would yousay?
What percentage allows you tohave the right to do that?
SPEAKER_08 (14:35):
I I I I would rather say what circumstances would
allow you to have the the right.
And let me tell you why I'msaying that.
Because during World War II uhthere was a whole uh the Vatican
was involved in quite a bit ofespionage with um members of the
(14:59):
English government.
Okay, uh I'll I'll talk a bitmore.
SPEAKER_05 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, let's come back to this because I
think that the because that'sthis is a a longer story, I
think, than that.
And Rudy, we're gonna come backto you two at the big bottom of
the hour as well in just a fewminutes.
SPEAKER_08 (15:12):
No, no, Rudy's not here to talk, he's just here to
listen.
SPEAKER_05 (15:15):
He's just here to Okay.
All right.
SPEAKER_04 (15:23):
AM 1070, the answer.
Salem News Channel.
It's America's fastest growingconservative TV network.
It's an absolute crazy day.
Home to the largest lineup offree speech champions anywhere,
delivering in-depth insight andunapologetic opinion on today's
biggest news stories.
Americans aren't gonna put upwith this anymore.
(15:44):
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SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
This is David Santrella, CEO of Salem Media.
It is with profound sorrow thatwe mourn the tragic passing of
Charlie Kirk following thehorrific assassination attack at
Utah Valley University.
It was a cowardly and vile actof violence carried out to
silence one of America's boldestChristian conservative voices.
(16:17):
Our hearts are shattered forCharlie's wife, family, friends,
colleagues, and the countlesspeople whose lives he touched
through his words, his work, andhis unwavering commitment to
faith and country.
Charlie was more than abroadcaster.
He was a fearless defender oftruth and a faithful servant of
God.
His assassination was not justan attack on Charlie.
(16:38):
It was an attack on free speechand on the values Charlie
championed every day.
Salem Media extends its mostheartfelt condolences to the
Kirk family, Charlie's friends,and the millions of Americans
and people across the world whoare grieving this senseless
loss.
I'm Dave Central.
SPEAKER_04 (16:56):
The Second Amendment does not apply to
semi-autorifles, nor does itapply to bolt action rifles,
pistols, or revolvers.
Hey, the Second Amendmentrestricts government.
The technology of the firearm isirrelevant.
The restrictions on governmentremain the same, regardless of
the firearm.
The Second Amendment was notwritten to grant permission to
citizens to own and bearfirearms.
(17:16):
It forbids government'sinterference and the right to
keep and bear arms.
Period.
Supporting the Second Amendment.
This is the big Ten 70, theanswer.
SPEAKER_05 (18:22):
Priestminister Rabbi normally, but the rabbi's not
here, but instead we've justreplaced him with a millennial.
So I'm just kidding.
Just kidding.
Now you were talking earlierbefore we left.
We're talking about politicalviolence tonight.
We're talking about a kind of aChristian response, Christian
thinks, uh thinking aboutpolitical violence.
And um given given the events ofthis past week.
(18:46):
And you were mentioning what washappening at the end, or not at
the end, at the beginning of theSecond World War, I suppose.
In the middle of the world,okay.
Yeah.
With uh with the Vatican.
The Vatican, yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (19:00):
Well, uh by the way, if any of you want to read an
excellent, excellent, excellent,excellent book about the World
World War II and the Vatican andPope Pius XII.
Get yourself the book calledChurch of Spies.
I can't remember who it's by.
I have it.
SPEAKER_05 (19:18):
Yeah, I've got it too as well.
It's it's a great book.
I agree with you.
I read it about four or fiveyears ago.
SPEAKER_08 (19:23):
Church of Spies.
Uh it almost reads like a novel,but it's actually a real uh uh
real event.
Uh no, what I was saying isthat, you know, the the Vatican
gets accused of a lot of uh, youknow, allowing Hitler to, you
know, to uh um operate the wayhe was operating without
necessarily uh saying something.
(19:45):
But the Vatican uh I'm not gonnaget into it too much, but the
Vatican decided early on thatsince the Vatican has no army,
has no ability, the only thingwe have is moral agency.
And and Hitler was looking for areason to uh invade the Vatican.
And uh the Vatican and Pope Piusthe Twelfth made the decision
(20:08):
that it was better for them togo underneath the table, and
they were helping Jews all overthe place.
Um they were giving out theywere giving out b fake baptism
certificates, they were doingall kinds of stuff to try and
hide Jews.
There were many Jews that werehidden in the Vatican.
And uh Pius the Twelfthunderstood that the more he
(20:29):
spoke against Hitler publicly,the more people died.
And that was he he sa heexperienced that happening.
But one of the things that theywere doing, that the Vatican was
doing, was ask acting asintermediaries between um people
of generals, especially peoplein the German army who were
(20:50):
already against Hitler, and theywere uh uh dealing with them uh
and with spies from the uh fromthe from England and the United
States.
And there was a lot of planningon how to um get take out the
people who were doing the war.
(21:12):
And there was a lot ofdiscussion about killing Hitler.
And uh that in by the way, in intheology that's called regicide.
Uh regicide regist means king.
And so the killing of a of a uhof a uh reigning king.
Reigning king or something likethat.
So the question then becamebecame well, is it even
(21:35):
appropriate for the Pope to beuh dealing passing secrets and
giving quarter to people whowere who were going to do that.
Uh and uh there was really a lotof a lot of um how should I say
uh per tra discussion about whatwas just.
(21:58):
But I think ultimately thequestion is justice.
There's a s a d there's adefinition that I like to use
because see in the Catholictradition we are not ultimately
against violence.
Um as a matter of fact, the TenCommandments do not say do not
kill, they say do not murder.
Uh and the issue is uh theinnocence of the person that you
(22:21):
are killing is murder.
Um killing in self-defense, forexample, is not against uh
church uh teaching.
But I I like this example, Imean this this definition that I
I read somewhere, but uh um andit's this violence when
justified is not an option but asad duty.
SPEAKER_05 (22:47):
Richard John Newhouse.
SPEAKER_08 (22:49):
Yeah, Richard John Newhouse.
Now now let me say it again.
Okay Violence when justified isnot an option, but a sad duty.
The question is when is itjustified?
That is the whole thing that hasthe where it hangs.
(23:09):
Um because when I'm sure thatthis guy who killed uh Charlie
Kirk was making up some way oranother where it was justified
for him to do that.
Okay.
The question is, can the wholeidea of the decision for justice
be perverted?
And of course, in his case, itwas definitely pervented.
SPEAKER_05 (23:31):
And and in other cases it can be as well.
That's right.
SPEAKER_08 (23:34):
That's right.
So when when um when CharlieKirk was killed, um that was
political violence.
But the political violence atthat moment was not justified
because in no way was Charlie inany way um fomenting violence or
trying to get people killed.
(23:54):
He was arguing on principles.
Charlie I mean Charlie.
Rudy?
SPEAKER_07 (24:04):
Yeah, uh I know we have to go to a break here in a
second, but I I think that'skind of the problem though.
Even though Charlie was veryhealthy focused, because of the
uh ideology that you weretalking about earlier, really we
(24:36):
call him.
I mean for a very long time, forabout three years, really.
(25:00):
I was finishing uh financialdegree in the turning point
chapters all over the US enough.
And it was because of this,because of this type of
rhetoric, because it was it waskind of a throwback to what
universities should be about.
Open dialogue of ideas.
SPEAKER_08 (25:19):
Yeah.
We gotta go to a break.
Um and Rudy wants you tocontinue when we come back to
the case.
This is K N T H 1070 and we'llbe right back.
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SPEAKER_05 (28:05):
Hey, welcome back to a show of faith here on AM ten
seventy The Answer.
Our colleague um this past week,Charlie Kirk was sh shot to
death in Utah.
And in an act of really what ispolitical violence, political
assassination.
Let me before you you you couldgo on, Rudy, how did you're
(28:27):
you're in Guatemala?
How how is this reported inGuatemala?
What kind of response was thatwas with that?
SPEAKER_07 (28:35):
Uh you know, there's a couple, it's been uh um
there's some conservatives herein Guatemala that are quite
patriotic, and I think you kindof find it really country.
(30:00):
Similar to the to the to thekind of response you've seen in
the States?
Just not as personable, maybe Iwould say as as you would see in
the States, just because of kindof the impact Charlie did have
on on the politics of the UnitedStates.
I mean, his his it's just it'sjust horrible.
SPEAKER_05 (30:22):
Really, it was it was really broader, you know,
it's really broader than um thanthe United States.
I mean, it recently he was overin the UK and did uh in a sense
the same sort of debatestructure, conversation
structure with people who areprofessors at I think it was
Cambridge, one of those placeslike that.
And and even though they didn'tagree with him, they still
(30:45):
admired his ability that this31-year-old guy had for with no
college.
With no college, yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (30:54):
No college.
SPEAKER_05 (30:55):
I mean, this guy this guy was smart as a smart as
a whipper.
Uh I remember hearing thatgrowing up.
I I have no idea what a whipperis.
SPEAKER_08 (31:03):
No, smart as a whip.
SPEAKER_05 (31:05):
A smart as a whip.
unknown (31:06):
A whipper, a whipper snapper.
SPEAKER_05 (31:08):
Whipper snapper, okay.
That's what it is.
All right.
So okay.
SPEAKER_07 (31:13):
Well yeah.
No, I wanted I wanted to Iwanted to mention something
because I think it's somethingthat that um I'm gonna give some
facts and some some somestatistics, if you will.
Um our our let's call them umviolent deaths globally average
(31:37):
about six or one hundredthousand people today.
Okay?
If you go back two, three, fourhundred years, this goes up to
about fifty, and in some casesup to about five hundred when
there was just major, majorengagements.
To give you some perspective,even during the 20th century,
(31:59):
when you look at the two worldwars, only about three percent
of the people um died inwarfare, right?
And so there's this giant worldwar going on, um, and only about
three percent of people actuallydied during that warfare.
So it was as much as of courseit was affecting regions, but um
(32:21):
the death told per se, I'm notsaying that uh that they weren't
high, of course they were, um,but they weren't as high in
other times of of of history.
Now, having said that, violentcrimes and I would even say
political crimes are decliningin most developed nations, which
(32:43):
they have been uh for some timenow, right?
Now I'm saying developednations, right?
Um what we would maybe considerthe first world today.
And there was an interestingpeer study done just this year,
actually, that tracks uh thelast couple of years, and it
says that most Americans haveactually zero willingness to
(33:07):
endorse or participate inpolitical violence.
Okay, so they really don't havean appetite.
So I guess what I'm seeing isthat there's this of course
there's deaths and there'smurders and and you know,
there's all these things dohappen, but they're they're a
definite decline.
Now, when we have this type ofevent, something called
(33:30):
televised, I think this is whythese types of things so it's
it's kind of twofold.
I think there's there's lots ofthese types of violent crimes
happening.
As much as the media wants totell you that there isn't, that
there is, and everything's so ina how do I say hell in a time
basket, right?
Um the the less frequent violentacts seem to be more heinously
(33:55):
violent, if that makes anysense.
And they seem to be because oftheir technology captured in
real time.
So so they seem quite violent,right?
I mean, if you see the video ofthis of this young lady getting
stabbed in the uh in um in thetransit line, it's just
absolutely horrific.
(34:16):
And what's even worse, nobodydoes anything.
Right?
It's just she's just sittingthere bleeding out to death, and
it's just absolutely horrific.
So so we're being bombarded withthese images that are just
absolutely inhumane.
And I think that's what that'swhat's kind of being how do I
(34:37):
say it?
It's what's kind of being fedmore towards, right?
So so it's an interesting thing,and and and I want to end it,
and I know I've I'm kind ofjumping up and down, but this is
something you asked earlier, um,David, about what it is to be a
Christian during these times,and and this is something that
Charlie Kirk said.
He said, to be a Christian meansto forgive the inexcusable,
(35:00):
because God has forgiven theinexcusable in you.
So I think for for us and asChristians, even though one in
seven Christians globally is indirect line of persecution,
there's way more persecutionsjust in Africa.
Thirty-five Christians arekilled a day.
A day.
(35:20):
Okay, there's a lot of violencethat isn't really talked about,
which is what Charlie really didspeak out about.
Um but I think it's it stillmeans it still means learning to
forgive in a in a way thatthat's peaceful.
But there will be times and aswe see now, right, where where
(35:44):
this what is Bateman, what didyou call it?
This this sad the sad act thatwe have to do.
SPEAKER_08 (35:50):
Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_07 (35:51):
Yeah, that's about those men.
SPEAKER_08 (35:53):
The definition is violence when justified is not
an option but a sad duty.
SPEAKER_07 (36:00):
It's a sad duty.
So uh as a Christian, I we don'twant to engage in that sad duty.
You know, it's not somethingthat we look forward to.
Nobody wants to I mean, this manleaves behind two kids and a
wife.
This is just absolutely ahorrendous thing, but the
reality is that it happens allover the girl world in Ukraine,
(36:22):
in Gaza.
And so it's just the impact ofthese images, too.
So I think it's there's athere's a lot of things going on
at play here, right?
It's it's technology.
SPEAKER_05 (36:31):
Um well the other thing, too, is that Charlie Kirk
became a household name throughthe means of technology.
I mean, it's it's YouTube, it'sit's uh social media, these kind
of things.
So people got to know him, notbecause he was on nightly
television or he was a sportshero, but because he was really
(36:54):
good at what he did, and thatwas engaging people to think and
to think deeply and to askquestions and to and to be clear
about what you're you're saying.
SPEAKER_08 (37:05):
He was kind of like a modern-day Socrates.
You know, yeah, in ways, yeah.
Because he would he would goaround asking, well, what do you
mean by that?
And and he asked people todefend what they were doing, and
that's what it just made themangry.
Remember what they did toSocrates.
SPEAKER_05 (37:21):
Well, that's right.
Put him to death.
SPEAKER_08 (37:23):
Put him to death.
SPEAKER_05 (37:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (37:25):
So it's not surprising.
And uh any anybody who has whohas stood up and done what they
thought was right, and they'rein a moment in which the
permission structure is sayingyou are you are authentically
have permission to kill thisperson, is it's got to be aware
(37:45):
that they're risking theirlives.
And those are the heroes oftoday.
Yeah.
The ones who've risked theirlives.
SPEAKER_05 (37:51):
And and and here there's a great commercial in
this station that describes himas an American hero.
One of our listeners, uh uh,Tom, said in this.
He said, one thing I realizedwhen I thought about the left's
absurd claim that Kirk washateful, he wanted to impose his
(38:12):
values on everyone, is thatpeople on the right generally
speak somewhere and invite otherpeople to show up.
People on the left generally gointo the streets and screen
their values to people whomostly just want to go to do
their jobs or go to theirappointments.
(38:33):
So which of these he says is animposition?
Interesting question.
He goes on to say, I do missDennis Prager in times like
this.
Yeah.
As do I.
Dennis Prager just had such hassuch great wisdom, and he's not
able to be on the air right nowbecause of his tragic fall fall
(38:53):
last year.
Well, I know we have to go tobreak here in just a minute.
When we come back, what I'd liketo do is transition a little bit
away from the kind of idea ofpolitical uh violence away to
toward what I hear other peoplesaying, and that Charlie Kirk
himself is actually a martyr.
(39:14):
And sometimes there's this wholeidea is that the seed of the
blood of the martyrs is the seatof the church.
That in fact what he did andwhat he said he was what we
cared about, he wanted to beknown as a man who was who stood
up for his faith, which is whathe did.
(39:36):
And he tried to bring theChristian faith into
conversations every day withpeople.
SPEAKER_08 (39:42):
That's right.
SPEAKER_05 (39:42):
And so I want to talk about the idea of moving
from political to fromassassination to to martyrdom at
that point.
SPEAKER_08 (39:49):
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH, and we will be right back.
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Concentrate on dramatic.
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And together we will see howlovely heaven will be.
(43:35):
And together we will see howlovely heaven will be.
SPEAKER_05 (43:41):
Hey, welcome back to a show of faith here on AMTN70.
The answer.
Our own Johnny Angel is sittinghere.
Um just enjoying that song.
SPEAKER_08 (43:51):
That's my favorite song from the 60s.
I was in love with her.
SPEAKER_05 (43:56):
Not with Carpenter.
Not with Karen Carpenter.
SPEAKER_08 (44:02):
Shelly Fabre.
SPEAKER_05 (44:03):
Shelly Fabre.
SPEAKER_08 (44:04):
Yeah.
When she sang that in my MyThree Sons.
No, was it My Three Sons?
No, it wasn't My Three Sons.
I can't remember when what showShelly Fabre was.
The Donna Reed Show.
SPEAKER_05 (44:17):
Donna Reed.
SPEAKER_08 (44:18):
The Donna Reed Show, that's what it was.
She sang that, and I I watchedher singing, and I had to
imagine that I was Johnny Angel.
SPEAKER_05 (44:25):
You were Johnny Angel.
Yeah.
Because I was in love with her.
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (44:28):
So for marry me, that's why I became a priest,
you know.
SPEAKER_05 (44:35):
The church's gain is her loss, for sure.
We're talking about politicalviolence tonight.
We're talking about the death ofCharlie Kirk.
One of the things that I'veheard this week is uh
description, and I'm curiouswhat you guys think about this,
the description of of Kirk'skilling, silencing as one of
(44:58):
martyrdom.
And I think one of the reasonsthat they do this, that they
said this, is uh not that welive at a time of a lot of
martyr modern martyrs in ourcountry, but there are martyrs
in the world.
I think we always have to acceptthat.
But the fact is that he was verybold for his faith.
(45:21):
He talked about a lot.
He wore Jesus saves t-shirts,you know, to his rallies.
I mean, it was it was very mucha part of his message.
Uh he he didn't just dopolitics.
He did he did faith, he didvalues, he did his own faith,
and he urged other people tofind faith in Christ as well.
(45:43):
And to some degree to shut thatup to shut that off is an act of
martyrdom, it seems to me.
SPEAKER_08 (45:52):
I think you're correct.
I think you're correct.
Because he was not only talkingabout the politics, he was also
talking about Christianpolitics.
He was approaching politics as aChristian.
Okay, as a Christian.
So I I would say and he knewthat he was in danger.
And he had a lot of security,actually, but they the security
(46:16):
wasn't covering the rooftops.
Yeah.
So that's Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (46:21):
He was he was uh v very vulnerable in in that
particular kind of setting.
Um but probably didn't thinkabout the fact that he had to
worry about any kind of attackcoming like pre but like at
Butler, Pennsylvania, withPresident Trump coming from the
rooftop and having SecretService.
SPEAKER_08 (46:42):
Well this guy I mean this guy shot at Charlie from
the rooftop also.
So I think they're gonna have toall uh anybody who duh uh does
any speaking from now on has tocover rooftops.
You know, because that's whereall the assassinations have been
coming.
Well not all, but uh the two twoof the great significant ones
have been coming from that.
SPEAKER_05 (47:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Rudy, what do you think aboutm the idea of martyrdom?
SPEAKER_07 (47:08):
So within Catholic tradition, it's like the the
formal recognition of ofmartyrdom normally ends up in
the process of canonizationwhich is when we the Catholic
Church recognizes themofficially and declares them a
faint.
Um so now when I when I look atthe so a martyr strictly
(47:37):
speaking, right, it's somebodywho suffers death because of
hatred of their faith.
Uh hated for their faith.
So when when I when I thinkabout that, I would I think I
would call Charlie Kirk amartyr.
(47:57):
He was very open aboutChristianity.
He was very open about Jesus,speaking about Jesus, dialoguing
about Jesus, his wife wasCatholic, um his kids were
Catholic Sorry, his wife isCatholic because she's so happy.
(48:20):
Um and their marriage hadactually just been onto the
process where it's acceptedwithin the Catholic Church.
I'm not he was actually canceledto go on bishop uh Robert Bishop
Barry Podcast in uh in like afew days.
So who knows?
Uh um part of me thinks thatCharlie Kirk probably would have
(48:45):
even converted to uhCatholicism.
SPEAKER_08 (48:49):
But by the trick is spoken like a true Catholic.
SPEAKER_07 (48:59):
The rabbi might be a lost cause, but um yeah, but I
would I would say he I mean ifif you think about somebody
dying for what they believe andtrying to live the values in
which they believe, of coursewe're not privy to every single
(49:20):
thing he said, or that's justbetween him and God, right?
And frankly, I think I train uhwith with like with all people,
but what he tried to do, hereally tried to spread this
(49:41):
concept of open dialogue,non-violent open dialogue, and
and in a world full of hate, ina world that hate the truth.
I don't know.
I mean they did it to Jesus,right?
And he came down and followedtruth, and he was killed in the
most important manner, so Ithought it was expected, right?
(50:17):
I think I thought um the otherday sometimes we think we
finally avoid right when I thinkabout your thing.
And of course he wasn't the mostperfect human being, there's a
lot of things that he did wrong,but if you think if you think
(50:37):
about the effect that his wordsand his words had after his
death his examination.
I mean I don't I don't think hecould have thought about it, or
maybe he only dreamed of it.
And I just hope that thethinking and taking the Charlie
for it, that people grab thegood and just roll with it as
(51:00):
much as they can, right?
To kind of bring into that lightthat the truth which he was
trying to speak, which he wasmurdered for, which I consider I
mean he was accascinated.
He was he was killed.
He was fascinated.
SPEAKER_05 (51:28):
Like Charlie Kirk, like uh MLK or Luther King Jr.
Uh the p people people likethat, when they are
assassinated, when they're takenout, as it were, their their
message somehow i i is notsilenced.
In other words, I wonder howmany future Charlie Kirks there
(51:52):
will be.
And I don't mean I mean I thinkI think it will I think it will
amplify his voice in a way.
And I I think that there are alot of people who are who were
were were not necessarily inCharlie's camp, but who saw what
happened to him and will bedrawn now to him as a person and
(52:15):
perhaps maybe persuaded,persuaded by his his arguments,
and they'll go back on YouTubeand they'll watch these things
over and over and they'll beginthinking about he always said he
he really wanted to talk aboutreality, you know, not
subjectivity, you know.
He wanted to talk about thesethings.
SPEAKER_08 (52:34):
You know, I I'm gonna look forward to seeing
what Trump does, because Trumpwas a good friend of Charlie
Kirk.
SPEAKER_15 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (52:42):
And uh he's gonna do something, he's gonna name
something after him, or he'sgonna um make it uh a holiday or
something like that.
Something's gonna happen becausethere's a there's a a way they
he he will be looking for a wayto uh kind of immortalize
Charlie Kirk.
SPEAKER_05 (53:00):
To honor him.
And and and there are peoplewho've made the case, I don't
know how credible it is, thatTrump may not have been able to
be um re-elected had it not beenfor the work of Charlie Kirk
among the young people, becausea lot of the young people are
those who helped turn the thislast election around.
SPEAKER_08 (53:23):
Yeah, I I d I don't know how much he influenced, but
he certainly has.
And I've been hearing quite afew people and on uh on YouTube
and on on different m media thatare um are leaving the left
after this.
SPEAKER_05 (53:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (53:40):
Um now please understand when I say leading
the left, uh I uh I think thatthe Democratic Party is um not
all Democrats are left, but Ithink all left are Democrats.
So I think that that that'ssomething that I I don't know
the future of the effects ofthis thing, but I think there
(54:03):
that the left is going to lose alot, and I think the Democrats
are going to get a heavy dutyblame, mainly because of the the
whole idea of permissionstructures, that the Democratic
Party has at least been highlycomplicit in establishing the
permission structures that allowsome crazy individuals to take
(54:24):
that all the way to a politicalassassination.
SPEAKER_05 (54:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it'll it'll be interestingto see what happens next.
I know we gotta go tonight.
SPEAKER_08 (54:34):
Next week it's me.
SPEAKER_05 (54:34):
That's you're the man.
SPEAKER_08 (54:36):
I'm the man next week.
So you've been listening to KNTH1070, uh, where minister,
priest, and rabbi talk aboutevents in the news with you and
with each other.
So during this week, keep us,please, in your prayers because
during this whole week, you andall of you are going to be
(54:57):
constantly in hours.
SPEAKER_04 (54:59):
Find us at am 1070 the answer.com.
Download our apps, stream us247, K N T H and K277 D E F M,
Houston.
Oh, I can hardly hear anything.
Just listen.
What it is pain and stack.
I can't hear anything.
There's a hand with a little up,a little more up.
Perfect.
Hello, people.
(00:27):
I guess you're listening.
Hello and welcome to the show offaith.
We're a minister, priest, rabbi,and millennial.
Uh what do we do here?
SPEAKER_05 (00:47):
Discuss philosophy.
SPEAKER_08 (00:49):
Discuss philosophy, theology, we discuss religion.
SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
I mean important stuff.
SPEAKER_08 (00:56):
Important stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (00:57):
Right.
We we leave we leave nothing tounimportant stuff to other
people.
Yes, yes, we do.
But we do the important stuff.
SPEAKER_08 (01:04):
So Stuart Stewart, uh the rabbi, is not here
tonight.
SPEAKER_05 (01:08):
Yeah, he is traveling right now.
He is traveling.
He is uh uh seldom on vacation,but I think he's vacating.
He's going to see family and uhand friends in California and
Seattle, as I heard.
SPEAKER_08 (01:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (01:21):
Yeah.
So and and you're actually here.
SPEAKER_08 (01:25):
What do you mean I'm actually here?
SPEAKER_05 (01:26):
I mean I mean you're you're here.
You're not on vacation.
SPEAKER_08 (01:29):
No, I I'm I am probably out of the th the all
of us the one who's here themost.
SPEAKER_05 (01:34):
You probably that's true, because you're the most
faithful.
SPEAKER_08 (01:37):
I'm the most faithful.
You're the most faithful.
That's when when I go to Jesusand he says, Welcome, you are
the most faithful.
SPEAKER_05 (01:46):
He says that too often, does he?
SPEAKER_08 (01:48):
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_05 (01:50):
So this is Father Mario Arroyo.
SPEAKER_08 (01:52):
I am Father Mario Arroyo.
SPEAKER_05 (01:54):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_08 (01:55):
Uh I'm from Cuba, that's why rung.
And I am the retired pastor ofSt.
Cyril of Alexandria CatholicChurch.
And who are you?
SPEAKER_05 (02:03):
Well, I am David Capes.
I am the director of academicprogramming at the Lanier
Theological Library in Houston,Texas.
SPEAKER_08 (02:12):
And who is the guy, that young guy who's on the
phone?
SPEAKER_05 (02:15):
He's a young guy.
You know, we just picked him uplast week.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (02:18):
Uh I heard he was in the gutter.
SPEAKER_05 (02:21):
Um, yeah, he might have been.
What now?
Rudy.
SPEAKER_07 (02:26):
Off the street.
SPEAKER_08 (02:27):
Yeah, in the gutter.
You know?
In the gutter.
SPEAKER_05 (02:35):
Rudy lives down in Guatemala and he joins us.
He's got a master's degree in intheology from St.
Thomas.
And or St.
Thomas, that's right.
Yeah, St.
Thomas.
I almost said St.
Mary's, but I don't know.
St.
Thomas.
SPEAKER_07 (02:50):
I did go to uh St.
Mary's, actually, in San Antoniofor two years.
You did?
SPEAKER_05 (02:56):
But your your your real job is as a kind of an
engineer type, right?
SPEAKER_07 (03:02):
I I am.
I am a systems engineer bytrade.
And I am uh essentially doing uhoh Lord, I don't even know what
I do.
We're we're building aresidential building down here
in Guatemala, and I'm alsostarting a new business, which I
(03:22):
can tell you guys about later,but that's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_05 (03:26):
Wow, starting a new business.
Fantastic.
Well, I'd love to know more andmore about that.
Um at some at some point downthe road.
Now see, Father Mario keepspointing to Miranda who's on the
board.
SPEAKER_08 (03:37):
Because I like it.
Oh, and now it's getting just alittle bit more, Miranda.
SPEAKER_05 (03:41):
See, earlier I told her to turn it down because
there we go.
SPEAKER_08 (03:45):
Now that's fine.
SPEAKER_05 (03:45):
But I'm gonna tell her to turn it down.
No, yes, it's too loud.
No, you're hurting my ears.
I you don't care, do you?
SPEAKER_08 (03:53):
You hurt my ears by what you say.
Okay, David is our showdirector.
SPEAKER_05 (04:00):
Yeah, I'm the show director, and you know, I I got
back from from Eastern Europe,and uh one of the big events of
the week was the the shooting,the shooting death of Charlie
Kirk.
Some people are sayingassassination.
SPEAKER_08 (04:18):
No, it's an assassination.
SPEAKER_05 (04:19):
Well, I think it probably is.
SPEAKER_08 (04:21):
What else could it be?
SPEAKER_05 (04:22):
Well, I know people are pushing back on that.
SPEAKER_08 (04:24):
What are they what else?
What's the alternative?
SPEAKER_05 (04:26):
It's just uh random show.
I I don't know.
No, it it really wasintentional.
It was targeted.
SPEAKER_08 (04:33):
It's an assassination.
SPEAKER_05 (04:35):
Yeah.
So the assassination of uhCharlie Kirk this past week in
Utah, and uh it just it ittriggered in me the desire to
talk about political violencetonight.
And and we could we couldbroaden that to say violence in
general, because right beforethat this event, this this
(04:56):
horrible event in Utah, therewas another horrible event in
North Carolina.
SPEAKER_08 (05:00):
Yeah, the stabbing of that young girl.
SPEAKER_05 (05:02):
There was a young girl from uh Yana?
Uh I'm I have her name here in aminute.
I'll I'll pick it up.
SPEAKER_07 (05:10):
But um wonderful Irina Zarutska.
Stabbed in uh in a rail, in alight rail.
SPEAKER_05 (05:22):
Yeah, on a light rail train, and the fellow was
sitting behind her and uh gotup.
You know, she just she was goingto work, she came home.
I mean, she was coming home fromwork, just minding her own
business, sat down on the train,and here he was, um, sitting
behind her, and for reasons noteven God knows, I don't think,
(05:44):
you know, he he he stabbed herin the neck and she bled out
right there, and uh there was nono chance for her.
So a random act of violence.
She just happened to be in thewrong place at the sitting in
front of the wrong person whohad who had uh a lot of prior
convictions, prior prior arrestsand prior convictions, and who
(06:08):
had been let out, let out, letout.
Um and and then, you know, therewere questions of mental health.
There's all at any rate, the pthe point is that there this
seems to be a season that we'rein of a lot of violence.
And we had two assassinationattempts on President Trump uh w
(06:28):
when he was candidate Trump inthis last last election.
And I yeah, I'm I'm justwondering what kind of moment
that we're living through andwhat is to be a Christian
response to political violencein particular tonight.
(06:49):
Let me give you let me give youa kind of a working definition.
What is I I guess we could wecould begin by saying what is
political violence?
And here's a definition.
It's the use of force orcoercion by groups or by states
(07:09):
to achieve a political aim.
SPEAKER_08 (07:13):
But what about individuals?
SPEAKER_05 (07:15):
Well, the individual could well belong to a group,
not necessarily coordinatedgroup, but has been radicalized
by a group, has been uh trainedby m clearly that that he seems
to have been a loan shooter, butthat may may not prove to be the
(07:37):
case.
It might have been severalpeople who were involved, who
knows down the road.
We don't we don't have enoughinformation yet.
But the fact is that this fellowwho came up in a in a Republican
home, apparently, his parentswere Republican, had begun to
change.
He he was he was he he had madehe had made the decision to get
(08:03):
the rifle, put the rifle inspace in the in the place, and
then to to go and assassinate orto attempt to assassinate
Charlie Kirk.
And and and he he he had a hehad he had the shot.
And it and it killed him, and itwas a w one hit one shot, which
is all it takes with for the 30aught six.
That's a big caliber weapon.
(08:26):
And a 30 aught six at a hundredyards velocity is incredible.
Any s any sort of shot to thehead and it's pretty much over
at that point.
SPEAKER_08 (08:36):
I heard a distinction that I think that I
found very useful.
Uh the one who gave me thisdistinction was Ben Shapiro.
But he said, Imagine that uhthat the um uh the pol the body
politic is a cauldron or uh youknow a pot.
(08:58):
And underneath that pot there isa small fire.
The more you stoke that fire,and the bigger it gets, the
hotter the pot gets, and themore it bubbles.
And the more it the more thefire goes up, the hotter the the
the bubbles the the more of theboiling in the water.
(09:19):
And sooner or later the waterthe water will boil over.
The the the fire itself did notum make any any part of that or
any bubble of that water fallover.
But the ones who stoked it didhit heat the water enough for
(09:43):
the b water to boil and to comeover.
Uh Charlie I mean uh um BenShapiro called the the the the
fire underneath the body politicand especially the left wing.
Not all Democrats but the leftwing.
(10:03):
And he says that what they didis they maybe they didn't pull
the trigger, but they dideverything they could to create
the permission structures for inother words they increased the
heat by their their um rhetoricthat they the the water in the
(10:25):
body body politic began tobubble and some of it began to
spill over.
I found that the uhunderstanding of the whole idea
of creating permissionstructures because in society
you have permission structuresthat uh are um that are
(10:49):
established by all kinds ofdifferent things.
And also um a what what's theopposite of permission?
SPEAKER_05 (10:58):
Um, forbidding structures.
SPEAKER_08 (11:04):
And I think he uh Ben Ben Shapiro is correct on
that.
That uh if you look at the atthe violence, the political
violence that has been created,also maybe not directly
political, but it for example, iit is the left that is
responsible.
The man who killed that girl inhim.
(11:27):
Why would I blame the left?
Because they refuse to convictpeople and they refuse to put
them in jail.
And that is a left-wingunderstanding of permission that
establishes the permissionpermission structure.
Okay, the assassination attemptson on President Trump, the
(11:48):
killing of Charlie Kirk.
And if you go back to all thedifferent um attempts or
violences, that they are um theyare and have been persons who
have been benefited or havereacted to the left-wing
permission structures that havebeen foisted on society.
(12:12):
There's quite a few, forexample, um uh uh shootings that
have been done by the transcommunity.
That doesn't mean that becauseyou're trans, you're going to
commit violence.
But that does mean that a lot ofpeople who are troubled and have
other problems think that, oh,they can blame it on trans and
(12:32):
they can try they can try andtrans, and then they find out
they're disappointed because itdidn't fix anything, and they
begin blaming society becauseyou are still oppressing me
since the trans thing didn'twork.
Okay, and so they blame societyand enough enough to the point
that they become become angryand they wish to kill the people
(12:55):
because they blame.
Because this whole idea ofviolent that speech is now
violence because you are erasingme.
So having an opinion that iscontrary to yours, especially on
on much of the left, is to havean opinion that erases my being.
It's not just an opinion now,it's my self-identity.
(13:17):
And that means you're attackingme.
And if you're attacking me, Ihave a right to defend myself.
And so if you look at all thepolicies of the left, they
encourage, not that, not thatthey go and say kill, but they
establish the environment thatgives rise to the permission
structure that has the bubblingover that is the murders that
(13:41):
are going on.
SPEAKER_05 (13:43):
And I think about that the murder of that uh the
executive with United Health.
SPEAKER_08 (13:48):
The same thing.
SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Yeah, and and the response to that, which
surprised the heck out of me.
SPEAKER_08 (13:52):
That's right.
SPEAKER_05 (13:53):
That that that kind even even though people might
really have issues withinsurance companies, the fact
that they would be celebrating.
SPEAKER_08 (14:01):
And not only that, it's right now 70 over 70
percent of people on the leftagree with that the the the
proposition that it is okayperiodically that you kill the
uh the the members uh that areobstructing you.
Uh 25 percent of right wing dothat, but 70 percent of the left
(14:25):
does it.
SPEAKER_05 (14:26):
Yeah.
As a Christian, what would yousay?
What percentage allows you tohave the right to do that?
SPEAKER_08 (14:35):
I I I I would rather say what circumstances would
allow you to have the the right.
And let me tell you why I'msaying that.
Because during World War II uhthere was a whole uh the Vatican
was involved in quite a bit ofespionage with um members of the
(14:59):
English government.
Okay, uh I'll I'll talk a bitmore.
SPEAKER_05 (15:03):
Yeah, yeah, let's come back to this because I
think that the because that'sthis is a a longer story, I
think, than that.
And Rudy, we're gonna come backto you two at the big bottom of
the hour as well in just a fewminutes.
SPEAKER_08 (15:12):
No, no, Rudy's not here to talk, he's just here to
listen.
SPEAKER_05 (15:15):
He's just here to Okay.
All right.
SPEAKER_04 (15:23):
AM 1070, the answer.
Salem News Channel.
It's America's fastest growingconservative TV network.
It's an absolute crazy day.
Home to the largest lineup offree speech champions anywhere,
delivering in-depth insight andunapologetic opinion on today's
biggest news stories.
Americans aren't gonna put upwith this anymore.
(15:44):
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Stream now on Samsung TV Pluschannel 1177.
SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
This is David Santrella, CEO of Salem Media.
It is with profound sorrow thatwe mourn the tragic passing of
Charlie Kirk following thehorrific assassination attack at
Utah Valley University.
It was a cowardly and vile actof violence carried out to
silence one of America's boldestChristian conservative voices.
(16:17):
Our hearts are shattered forCharlie's wife, family, friends,
colleagues, and the countlesspeople whose lives he touched
through his words, his work, andhis unwavering commitment to
faith and country.
Charlie was more than abroadcaster.
He was a fearless defender oftruth and a faithful servant of
God.
His assassination was not justan attack on Charlie.
(16:38):
It was an attack on free speechand on the values Charlie
championed every day.
Salem Media extends its mostheartfelt condolences to the
Kirk family, Charlie's friends,and the millions of Americans
and people across the world whoare grieving this senseless
loss.
I'm Dave Central.
SPEAKER_04 (16:56):
The Second Amendment does not apply to
semi-autorifles, nor does itapply to bolt action rifles,
pistols, or revolvers.
Hey, the Second Amendmentrestricts government.
The technology of the firearm isirrelevant.
The restrictions on governmentremain the same, regardless of
the firearm.
The Second Amendment was notwritten to grant permission to
citizens to own and bearfirearms.
(17:16):
It forbids government'sinterference and the right to
keep and bear arms.
Period.
Supporting the Second Amendment.
This is the big Ten 70, theanswer.
SPEAKER_05 (18:22):
Priestminister Rabbi normally, but the rabbi's not
here, but instead we've justreplaced him with a millennial.
So I'm just kidding.
Just kidding.
Now you were talking earlierbefore we left.
We're talking about politicalviolence tonight.
We're talking about a kind of aChristian response, Christian
thinks, uh thinking aboutpolitical violence.
And um given given the events ofthis past week.
(18:46):
And you were mentioning what washappening at the end, or not at
the end, at the beginning of theSecond World War, I suppose.
In the middle of the world,okay.
Yeah.
With uh with the Vatican.
The Vatican, yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (19:00):
Well, uh by the way, if any of you want to read an
excellent, excellent, excellent,excellent book about the World
World War II and the Vatican andPope Pius XII.
Get yourself the book calledChurch of Spies.
I can't remember who it's by.
I have it.
SPEAKER_05 (19:18):
Yeah, I've got it too as well.
It's it's a great book.
I agree with you.
I read it about four or fiveyears ago.
SPEAKER_08 (19:23):
Church of Spies.
Uh it almost reads like a novel,but it's actually a real uh uh
real event.
Uh no, what I was saying isthat, you know, the the Vatican
gets accused of a lot of uh, youknow, allowing Hitler to, you
know, to uh um operate the wayhe was operating without
necessarily uh saying something.
(19:45):
But the Vatican uh I'm not gonnaget into it too much, but the
Vatican decided early on thatsince the Vatican has no army,
has no ability, the only thingwe have is moral agency.
And and Hitler was looking for areason to uh invade the Vatican.
And uh the Vatican and Pope Piusthe Twelfth made the decision
(20:08):
that it was better for them togo underneath the table, and
they were helping Jews all overthe place.
Um they were giving out theywere giving out b fake baptism
certificates, they were doingall kinds of stuff to try and
hide Jews.
There were many Jews that werehidden in the Vatican.
And uh Pius the Twelfthunderstood that the more he
(20:29):
spoke against Hitler publicly,the more people died.
And that was he he sa heexperienced that happening.
But one of the things that theywere doing, that the Vatican was
doing, was ask acting asintermediaries between um people
of generals, especially peoplein the German army who were
(20:50):
already against Hitler, and theywere uh uh dealing with them uh
and with spies from the uh fromthe from England and the United
States.
And there was a lot of planningon how to um get take out the
people who were doing the war.
(21:12):
And there was a lot ofdiscussion about killing Hitler.
And uh that in by the way, in intheology that's called regicide.
Uh regicide regist means king.
And so the killing of a of a uhof a uh reigning king.
Reigning king or something likethat.
So the question then becamebecame well, is it even
(21:35):
appropriate for the Pope to beuh dealing passing secrets and
giving quarter to people whowere who were going to do that.
Uh and uh there was really a lotof a lot of um how should I say
uh per tra discussion about whatwas just.
(21:58):
But I think ultimately thequestion is justice.
There's a s a d there's adefinition that I like to use
because see in the Catholictradition we are not ultimately
against violence.
Um as a matter of fact, the TenCommandments do not say do not
kill, they say do not murder.
Uh and the issue is uh theinnocence of the person that you
(22:21):
are killing is murder.
Um killing in self-defense, forexample, is not against uh
church uh teaching.
But I I like this example, Imean this this definition that I
I read somewhere, but uh um andit's this violence when
justified is not an option but asad duty.
SPEAKER_05 (22:47):
Richard John Newhouse.
SPEAKER_08 (22:49):
Yeah, Richard John Newhouse.
Now now let me say it again.
Okay Violence when justified isnot an option, but a sad duty.
The question is when is itjustified?
That is the whole thing that hasthe where it hangs.
(23:09):
Um because when I'm sure thatthis guy who killed uh Charlie
Kirk was making up some way oranother where it was justified
for him to do that.
Okay.
The question is, can the wholeidea of the decision for justice
be perverted?
And of course, in his case, itwas definitely pervented.
SPEAKER_05 (23:31):
And and in other cases it can be as well.
That's right.
SPEAKER_08 (23:34):
That's right.
So when when um when CharlieKirk was killed, um that was
political violence.
But the political violence atthat moment was not justified
because in no way was Charlie inany way um fomenting violence or
trying to get people killed.
(23:54):
He was arguing on principles.
Charlie I mean Charlie.
Rudy?
SPEAKER_07 (24:04):
Yeah, uh I know we have to go to a break here in a
second, but I I think that'skind of the problem though.
Even though Charlie was veryhealthy focused, because of the
uh ideology that you weretalking about earlier, really we
(24:36):
call him.
I mean for a very long time, forabout three years, really.
(25:00):
I was finishing uh financialdegree in the turning point
chapters all over the US enough.
And it was because of this,because of this type of
rhetoric, because it was it waskind of a throwback to what
universities should be about.
Open dialogue of ideas.
SPEAKER_08 (25:19):
Yeah.
We gotta go to a break.
Um and Rudy wants you tocontinue when we come back to
the case.
This is K N T H 1070 and we'llbe right back.
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SPEAKER_05 (28:05):
Hey, welcome back to a show of faith here on AM ten
seventy The Answer.
Our colleague um this past week,Charlie Kirk was sh shot to
death in Utah.
And in an act of really what ispolitical violence, political
assassination.
Let me before you you you couldgo on, Rudy, how did you're
(28:27):
you're in Guatemala?
How how is this reported inGuatemala?
What kind of response was thatwas with that?
SPEAKER_07 (28:35):
Uh you know, there's a couple, it's been uh um
there's some conservatives herein Guatemala that are quite
patriotic, and I think you kindof find it really country.
(30:00):
Similar to the to the to thekind of response you've seen in
the States?
Just not as personable, maybe Iwould say as as you would see in
the States, just because of kindof the impact Charlie did have
on on the politics of the UnitedStates.
I mean, his his it's just it'sjust horrible.
SPEAKER_05 (30:22):
Really, it was it was really broader, you know,
it's really broader than um thanthe United States.
I mean, it recently he was overin the UK and did uh in a sense
the same sort of debatestructure, conversation
structure with people who areprofessors at I think it was
Cambridge, one of those placeslike that.
And and even though they didn'tagree with him, they still
(30:45):
admired his ability that this31-year-old guy had for with no
college.
With no college, yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (30:54):
No college.
SPEAKER_05 (30:55):
I mean, this guy this guy was smart as a smart as
a whipper.
Uh I remember hearing thatgrowing up.
I I have no idea what a whipperis.
SPEAKER_08 (31:03):
No, smart as a whip.
SPEAKER_05 (31:05):
A smart as a whip.
unknown (31:06):
A whipper, a whipper snapper.
SPEAKER_05 (31:08):
Whipper snapper, okay.
That's what it is.
All right.
So okay.
SPEAKER_07 (31:13):
Well yeah.
No, I wanted I wanted to Iwanted to mention something
because I think it's somethingthat that um I'm gonna give some
facts and some some somestatistics, if you will.
Um our our let's call them umviolent deaths globally average
(31:37):
about six or one hundredthousand people today.
Okay?
If you go back two, three, fourhundred years, this goes up to
about fifty, and in some casesup to about five hundred when
there was just major, majorengagements.
To give you some perspective,even during the 20th century,
(31:59):
when you look at the two worldwars, only about three percent
of the people um died inwarfare, right?
And so there's this giant worldwar going on, um, and only about
three percent of people actuallydied during that warfare.
So it was as much as of courseit was affecting regions, but um
(32:21):
the death told per se, I'm notsaying that uh that they weren't
high, of course they were, um,but they weren't as high in
other times of of of history.
Now, having said that, violentcrimes and I would even say
political crimes are decliningin most developed nations, which
(32:43):
they have been uh for some timenow, right?
Now I'm saying developednations, right?
Um what we would maybe considerthe first world today.
And there was an interestingpeer study done just this year,
actually, that tracks uh thelast couple of years, and it
says that most Americans haveactually zero willingness to
(33:07):
endorse or participate inpolitical violence.
Okay, so they really don't havean appetite.
So I guess what I'm seeing isthat there's this of course
there's deaths and there'smurders and and you know,
there's all these things dohappen, but they're they're a
definite decline.
Now, when we have this type ofevent, something called
(33:30):
televised, I think this is whythese types of things so it's
it's kind of twofold.
I think there's there's lots ofthese types of violent crimes
happening.
As much as the media wants totell you that there isn't, that
there is, and everything's so ina how do I say hell in a time
basket, right?
Um the the less frequent violentacts seem to be more heinously
(33:55):
violent, if that makes anysense.
And they seem to be because oftheir technology captured in
real time.
So so they seem quite violent,right?
I mean, if you see the video ofthis of this young lady getting
stabbed in the uh in um in thetransit line, it's just
absolutely horrific.
(34:16):
And what's even worse, nobodydoes anything.
Right?
It's just she's just sittingthere bleeding out to death, and
it's just absolutely horrific.
So so we're being bombarded withthese images that are just
absolutely inhumane.
And I think that's what that'swhat's kind of being how do I
(34:37):
say it?
It's what's kind of being fedmore towards, right?
So so it's an interesting thing,and and and I want to end it,
and I know I've I'm kind ofjumping up and down, but this is
something you asked earlier, um,David, about what it is to be a
Christian during these times,and and this is something that
Charlie Kirk said.
He said, to be a Christian meansto forgive the inexcusable,
(35:00):
because God has forgiven theinexcusable in you.
So I think for for us and asChristians, even though one in
seven Christians globally is indirect line of persecution,
there's way more persecutionsjust in Africa.
Thirty-five Christians arekilled a day.
A day.
(35:20):
Okay, there's a lot of violencethat isn't really talked about,
which is what Charlie really didspeak out about.
Um but I think it's it stillmeans it still means learning to
forgive in a in a way thatthat's peaceful.
But there will be times and aswe see now, right, where where
(35:44):
this what is Bateman, what didyou call it?
This this sad the sad act thatwe have to do.
SPEAKER_08 (35:50):
Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_07 (35:51):
Yeah, that's about those men.
SPEAKER_08 (35:53):
The definition is violence when justified is not
an option but a sad duty.
SPEAKER_07 (36:00):
It's a sad duty.
So uh as a Christian, I we don'twant to engage in that sad duty.
You know, it's not somethingthat we look forward to.
Nobody wants to I mean, this manleaves behind two kids and a
wife.
This is just absolutely ahorrendous thing, but the
reality is that it happens allover the girl world in Ukraine,
(36:22):
in Gaza.
And so it's just the impact ofthese images, too.
So I think it's there's athere's a lot of things going on
at play here, right?
It's it's technology.
SPEAKER_05 (36:31):
Um well the other thing, too, is that Charlie Kirk
became a household name throughthe means of technology.
I mean, it's it's YouTube, it'sit's uh social media, these kind
of things.
So people got to know him, notbecause he was on nightly
television or he was a sportshero, but because he was really
(36:54):
good at what he did, and thatwas engaging people to think and
to think deeply and to askquestions and to and to be clear
about what you're you're saying.
SPEAKER_08 (37:05):
He was kind of like a modern-day Socrates.
You know, yeah, in ways, yeah.
Because he would he would goaround asking, well, what do you
mean by that?
And and he asked people todefend what they were doing, and
that's what it just made themangry.
Remember what they did toSocrates.
SPEAKER_05 (37:21):
Well, that's right.
Put him to death.
SPEAKER_08 (37:23):
Put him to death.
SPEAKER_05 (37:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (37:25):
So it's not surprising.
And uh any anybody who has whohas stood up and done what they
thought was right, and they'rein a moment in which the
permission structure is sayingyou are you are authentically
have permission to kill thisperson, is it's got to be aware
(37:45):
that they're risking theirlives.
And those are the heroes oftoday.
Yeah.
The ones who've risked theirlives.
SPEAKER_05 (37:51):
And and and here there's a great commercial in
this station that describes himas an American hero.
One of our listeners, uh uh,Tom, said in this.
He said, one thing I realizedwhen I thought about the left's
absurd claim that Kirk washateful, he wanted to impose his
(38:12):
values on everyone, is thatpeople on the right generally
speak somewhere and invite otherpeople to show up.
People on the left generally gointo the streets and screen
their values to people whomostly just want to go to do
their jobs or go to theirappointments.
(38:33):
So which of these he says is animposition?
Interesting question.
He goes on to say, I do missDennis Prager in times like
this.
Yeah.
As do I.
Dennis Prager just had such hassuch great wisdom, and he's not
able to be on the air right nowbecause of his tragic fall fall
(38:53):
last year.
Well, I know we have to go tobreak here in just a minute.
When we come back, what I'd liketo do is transition a little bit
away from the kind of idea ofpolitical uh violence away to
toward what I hear other peoplesaying, and that Charlie Kirk
himself is actually a martyr.
(39:14):
And sometimes there's this wholeidea is that the seed of the
blood of the martyrs is the seatof the church.
That in fact what he did andwhat he said he was what we
cared about, he wanted to beknown as a man who was who stood
up for his faith, which is whathe did.
(39:36):
And he tried to bring theChristian faith into
conversations every day withpeople.
SPEAKER_08 (39:42):
That's right.
SPEAKER_05 (39:42):
And so I want to talk about the idea of moving
from political to fromassassination to to martyrdom at
that point.
SPEAKER_08 (39:49):
Okay, this is 1070 KNTH, and we will be right back.
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Hey, welcome back to a show of faith here on AMTN70.
The answer.
Our own Johnny Angel is sittinghere.
Um just enjoying that song.
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That's my favorite song from the 60s.
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Not with Carpenter.
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Shelly Fabre.
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Yeah.
When she sang that in my MyThree Sons.
No, was it My Three Sons?
No, it wasn't My Three Sons.
I can't remember when what showShelly Fabre was.
The Donna Reed Show.
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Donna Reed.
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The Donna Reed Show, that's what it was.
She sang that, and I I watchedher singing, and I had to
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You were Johnny Angel.
Yeah.
Because I was in love with her.
Okay.
SPEAKER_08 (44:28):
So for marry me, that's why I became a priest,
you know.
SPEAKER_05 (44:35):
The church's gain is her loss, for sure.
We're talking about politicalviolence tonight.
We're talking about the death ofCharlie Kirk.
One of the things that I'veheard this week is uh
description, and I'm curiouswhat you guys think about this,
the description of of Kirk'skilling, silencing as one of
(44:58):
martyrdom.
And I think one of the reasonsthat they do this, that they
said this, is uh not that welive at a time of a lot of
martyr modern martyrs in ourcountry, but there are martyrs
in the world.
I think we always have to acceptthat.
But the fact is that he was verybold for his faith.
(45:21):
He talked about a lot.
He wore Jesus saves t-shirts,you know, to his rallies.
I mean, it was it was very mucha part of his message.
Uh he he didn't just dopolitics.
He did he did faith, he didvalues, he did his own faith,
and he urged other people tofind faith in Christ as well.
(45:43):
And to some degree to shut thatup to shut that off is an act of
martyrdom, it seems to me.
SPEAKER_08 (45:52):
I think you're correct.
I think you're correct.
Because he was not only talkingabout the politics, he was also
talking about Christianpolitics.
He was approaching politics as aChristian.
Okay, as a Christian.
So I I would say and he knewthat he was in danger.
And he had a lot of security,actually, but they the security
(46:16):
wasn't covering the rooftops.
Yeah.
So that's Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (46:21):
He was he was uh v very vulnerable in in that
particular kind of setting.
Um but probably didn't thinkabout the fact that he had to
worry about any kind of attackcoming like pre but like at
Butler, Pennsylvania, withPresident Trump coming from the
rooftop and having SecretService.
SPEAKER_08 (46:42):
Well this guy I mean this guy shot at Charlie from
the rooftop also.
So I think they're gonna have toall uh anybody who duh uh does
any speaking from now on has tocover rooftops.
You know, because that's whereall the assassinations have been
coming.
Well not all, but uh the two twoof the great significant ones
have been coming from that.
SPEAKER_05 (47:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Rudy, what do you think aboutm the idea of martyrdom?
SPEAKER_07 (47:08):
So within Catholic tradition, it's like the the
formal recognition of ofmartyrdom normally ends up in
the process of canonizationwhich is when we the Catholic
Church recognizes themofficially and declares them a
faint.
Um so now when I when I look atthe so a martyr strictly
(47:37):
speaking, right, it's somebodywho suffers death because of
hatred of their faith.
Uh hated for their faith.
So when when I when I thinkabout that, I would I think I
would call Charlie Kirk amartyr.
(47:57):
He was very open aboutChristianity.
He was very open about Jesus,speaking about Jesus, dialoguing
about Jesus, his wife wasCatholic, um his kids were
Catholic Sorry, his wife isCatholic because she's so happy.
(48:20):
Um and their marriage hadactually just been onto the
process where it's acceptedwithin the Catholic Church.
I'm not he was actually canceledto go on bishop uh Robert Bishop
Barry Podcast in uh in like afew days.
So who knows?
Uh um part of me thinks thatCharlie Kirk probably would have
(48:45):
even converted to uhCatholicism.
SPEAKER_08 (48:49):
But by the trick is spoken like a true Catholic.
SPEAKER_07 (48:59):
The rabbi might be a lost cause, but um yeah, but I
would I would say he I mean ifif you think about somebody
dying for what they believe andtrying to live the values in
which they believe, of coursewe're not privy to every single
(49:20):
thing he said, or that's justbetween him and God, right?
And frankly, I think I train uhwith with like with all people,
but what he tried to do, hereally tried to spread this
(49:41):
concept of open dialogue,non-violent open dialogue, and
and in a world full of hate, ina world that hate the truth.
I don't know.
I mean they did it to Jesus,right?
And he came down and followedtruth, and he was killed in the
most important manner, so Ithought it was expected, right?
(50:17):
I think I thought um the otherday sometimes we think we
finally avoid right when I thinkabout your thing.
And of course he wasn't the mostperfect human being, there's a
lot of things that he did wrong,but if you think if you think
(50:37):
about the effect that his wordsand his words had after his
death his examination.
I mean I don't I don't think hecould have thought about it, or
maybe he only dreamed of it.
And I just hope that thethinking and taking the Charlie
for it, that people grab thegood and just roll with it as
(51:00):
much as they can, right?
To kind of bring into that lightthat the truth which he was
trying to speak, which he wasmurdered for, which I consider I
mean he was accascinated.
He was he was killed.
He was fascinated.
SPEAKER_05 (51:28):
Like Charlie Kirk, like uh MLK or Luther King Jr.
Uh the p people people likethat, when they are
assassinated, when they're takenout, as it were, their their
message somehow i i is notsilenced.
In other words, I wonder howmany future Charlie Kirks there
(51:52):
will be.
And I don't mean I mean I thinkI think it will I think it will
amplify his voice in a way.
And I I think that there are alot of people who are who were
were were not necessarily inCharlie's camp, but who saw what
happened to him and will bedrawn now to him as a person and
(52:15):
perhaps maybe persuaded,persuaded by his his arguments,
and they'll go back on YouTubeand they'll watch these things
over and over and they'll beginthinking about he always said he
he really wanted to talk aboutreality, you know, not
subjectivity, you know.
He wanted to talk about thesethings.
SPEAKER_08 (52:34):
You know, I I'm gonna look forward to seeing
what Trump does, because Trumpwas a good friend of Charlie
Kirk.
SPEAKER_15 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (52:42):
And uh he's gonna do something, he's gonna name
something after him, or he'sgonna um make it uh a holiday or
something like that.
Something's gonna happen becausethere's a there's a a way they
he he will be looking for a wayto uh kind of immortalize
Charlie Kirk.
SPEAKER_05 (53:00):
To honor him.
And and and there are peoplewho've made the case, I don't
know how credible it is, thatTrump may not have been able to
be um re-elected had it not beenfor the work of Charlie Kirk
among the young people, becausea lot of the young people are
those who helped turn the thislast election around.
SPEAKER_08 (53:23):
Yeah, I I d I don't know how much he influenced, but
he certainly has.
And I've been hearing quite afew people and on uh on YouTube
and on on different m media thatare um are leaving the left
after this.
SPEAKER_05 (53:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_08 (53:40):
Um now please understand when I say leading
the left, uh I uh I think thatthe Democratic Party is um not
all Democrats are left, but Ithink all left are Democrats.
So I think that that that'ssomething that I I don't know
the future of the effects ofthis thing, but I think there
(54:03):
that the left is going to lose alot, and I think the Democrats
are going to get a heavy dutyblame, mainly because of the the
whole idea of permissionstructures, that the Democratic
Party has at least been highlycomplicit in establishing the
permission structures that allowsome crazy individuals to take
(54:24):
that all the way to a politicalassassination.
SPEAKER_05 (54:26):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it'll it'll be interestingto see what happens next.
I know we gotta go tonight.
SPEAKER_08 (54:34):
Next week it's me.
SPEAKER_05 (54:34):
That's you're the man.
SPEAKER_08 (54:36):
I'm the man next week.
So you've been listening to KNTH1070, uh, where minister,
priest, and rabbi talk aboutevents in the news with you and
with each other.
So during this week, keep us,please, in your prayers because
during this whole week, you andall of you are going to be
(54:57):
constantly in hours.
SPEAKER_04 (54:59):
Find us at am 1070 the answer.com.
Download our apps, stream us247, K N T H and K277 D E F M,
Houston.
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