A Sounder Life Episode 4.5 with guest Raelene Castle ( minus John's ramble)

Have you heard of Imposter Syndrome? Have you experienced yourself ? 

Join me for an insightful chat with my guest Raelene Castle, CEO of Sport NZ and former CEO Australia Rugby, Canterbury Bulldogs and Netball NZ amongst many other high profile roles.

We talk Sport, Business, Diversity and a new take on Imposter Syndrome and how to deal with it. Valuable perspective from Raelene's leadership career.

 Hope you enjoy !

Episode Transcript

John Holt (00:28):
Welcome, everyone.
Hello, John here, don't panic.
This is not the 16 Minutepreamble ramble that originally
accompanied this podcast of asound a Life episode for us as
in fact a rerun Episode 4.5,which still has the wonderful
discussion with my wonderfulguests Raylene Castle, just

(00:52):
without the 16 minutes of bloobthat I attended, become useful
as an introduction. So thanksvery much for the Frank feedback
from those who gave it to me,which essentially was John, we
found the conversation withRaeleen really interesting, but
the preamble, not so much. Sohere we are 4.5. It's a great

(01:13):
chat with Ray Lane, who has beena good friend of mine for many,
many years. We reminisce aboutthat we chat to her about her
amazing career, and sport andbusiness, which is far from over
some of the challenges sheopenly talks about, and the
learnings from those, which Ithink is fantastic. And some
great conversation in pointsmade around women in leadership

(01:37):
and leadership in general. Andalso, this phrase imposter
syndrome, which we hear quiteoften and increasingly often
around all sorts of scenarios,both in work and just people's
own personal anxieties aboutfeeling like they don't have the
right to be in the room or therole that they have. So writing
has a fantastic reset take onthat and in fact a new phrase to

(02:00):
describe it as well. So I amsure that if you do listen to
this, you will get something outof it in terms of a new
perspective. Certainly let meknow if you have any feedback
for us. Good, bad orindifferent. If you do like the
episode, please give us a Likeon Spotify or Apple podcasts and
tell your friends and if you dohave any direct feedback for me

(02:22):
Do feel free to shoot me anemail at John JRH in head
territory three dot community.
Thanks for listening and ontothe show with guest Raylene cast
212 Brilliant. So happy. One,two.

Raelene (02:42):
Hello. Um, 231231234

John Holt (02:46):
Guys, it's like an epiphany flow. Like I was muted
but now I have speech.

Raelene (02:53):
What was it? Was it just needed or how reset oh
look,

John Holt (02:56):
I talked to Terry and audio and she spoke to Bobby and
between them they think theysorted out some sort of
technical network issue.
Brilliant. Welcome everybody.
This is a sounder Life EpisodeFour and it is and run and gun
style and I'm not sure whetherI've explained it to my guests
but basically what it means isI'm too lazy to edit it. So

(03:19):
whatever we say from this timeforward, we actually just record
and run with so it is my junioryear Yeah, so there's there's no
opportunity because it's justtoo hard for me to to remove
anything so you do have to Iguess be quite considerate about
your responses. You saw that inthe contract you signed a new

Raelene (03:41):
that'll be the one that payment contract that I got for
this

John Holt (03:46):
year there's been an issue with the payment but I'll
cover that with you after thepodcast Raylene Castle welcome
Kiaora I'm very excited aboutthis conversation. Because this
will personify carefully a lotof conversations that we've had
socially, which had been veryenjoyable and a bit of event to

(04:11):
be honest, I think certainlyfrom my point of view around our
worlds and how they cometogether and yeah, I've just
been very appreciative of yourfriendship over Gosh, I've tried
to work it out the other daythat's a long time as I'm not
sure whether we should sharethat with with guests but

Raelene (04:28):
well that's north of 25 years John and I didn't much

John Holt (04:31):
25 years Yeah, that's scary scary so well. I

Raelene (04:35):
had no wrinkles.

John Holt (04:36):
Yes, well, yes, that's true. If I could remember
back that far, I'm pretty sure Imight have had some but yeah, 25
years.
So look, your career and I'vegot two listeners now and us in
so I was conscious that I doneed to do an introduction for
my guests. Because there arequite a way away from from us in

(04:59):
terms of Just my assumption thateverybody knows who my guests
are and how they sort of fitinto the world. So I went on
Wikipedia, which was great.
So just a quick intro to youwhich feel free to correct in
any shape or form. But you wereborn in Wagga, Wagga, Wagga,
Wagga walk around sorry, Ishould have asked about that

(05:20):
before. But a very quickmigration to New Zealand, early
early in life less than a yearold. And yeah, I mean, Wikipedia
doesn't do you justice, really,in terms of your career when I
met you. Xerox Bank of NewZealand telecom as it was back
then. And yeah, a slew ofexecutive appointments, I think

(05:43):
mostly in marketing.
And then, for me, an incrediblyimpressive achievement in 2013,
CEO of the Canary Bankstown,Bulldogs, and not just CEO, but
the first female CEO ever andthe National Rugby League in
Australia. So I'm really keen todive into that experience. And

(06:04):
then followed on by anotherreally interesting challenge
2017, rugby, Australia. Andbetween that in your current
role, you were awarded theofficer, New Zealand of merit
for services to sport andbusiness, which is just
absolutely awesome. And nowwe're talking to you live, run
and gun style is the CEO ofsport, New Zealand. And so men

(06:28):
as I have to disclose that, outof all my friends, you are
probably my go to when it comesto support.

Raelene (06:39):
Please, it's what you said, I wasn't quite sure what
you're going to say. By sothat's good.

John Holt (06:44):
I mean, I've never seen anybody who is passionate
as you are about sport.
And I'm really keen to sort ofdig in for some context for our
listeners about that sort of howthat came about, and how you how
you see that in the world. Butobviously, you've been
recognized for yourachievements, and actually
helping bring sports togetherfor for people as an

(07:04):
administrator as an executive.
And I think you've got a reallyinteresting perspective on
something that we kicked off onthe last episode with Natalie
Ferguson, almost accidentally,actually, and I will ask you
this question as well. I didhave a script. So I was quite
organized. But I asked net, whatbooks she was reading. I don't
even know why I asked Actually,it wasn't on my script. But she

(07:24):
said she was reading some trashynovels, and in a number of books
on women and leadership. And sowe basically just ended up for
the rest of the podcast. riffingaround that second topic, the
trashy novel stuff was of nointerest to anybody, I don't
think. Yeah, so what have youbeen reading?

Raelene (07:48):
Well, that's a really good question. I'm not, if I'm
really honest, a great reader ofsort of business books, or
leadership books or any ofthose. I do read a lot of
fiction, because it is my way ofdecompressing. And I find that
if I have a couple of hours tosit down and read, it's a really

(08:11):
good way of me sort of relaxingand the use of your imagination
in a constructive way, or in arelaxing way, as always worked
really well for me. Just havesome downtime. So why don't I
read books, I'm fortunate tomeet and mix with some really
interesting people every singleday. And so for me, it's always

(08:33):
been on the job learning. It'sbeen about who I see who I
observe who I'm fortunate enoughto meet with. And watch how they
deal with certain situations.
And so I'm sort of a kinestheticlearner, really. And that's
always been more for me thenreading and highlighting books.
So yeah, I'm, it's just kind ofalways the way I've, I've done

(08:54):
it.

John Holt (08:57):
So one of the ways you could actually position that
from a PR and marketing point ofview is that you are very early
adopter of web three. You'vebeen in that three dimensional
kind of virtual world of justactually engaging with real real
people. For years.

Raelene (09:15):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose it's a really curious
mind. I've always beeninterested in how people have
done things, why they've doneit, what made them make certain
decisions, I've been fortunateto spend some time with some
very, very high profile leaders,I was lucky to join America's
Cup time travel around thecountry was to Sir Peter Blake
for you know, two or six weeks.
And we visited every town andcity promoting America's Cup.

(09:42):
And that gave us a lot ofdowntime driving between cities
and you know, having catching upat dinner and, you know, asking
him how did he bring a crewtogether that sat around the
rest of the world? You know, howdid he choose those people? What
was important time when he wasbringing together that
leadership group, you know, allof those things and so You know,
that's been a really importantpart of my learning as being

(10:04):
fortunate to, you know, be inpart of Max with those people in
take the little, you know, spotsof gold out of those different
people that I've been fortunateto maximum meet with and, and
then you know, start to jointhose together and take those
learnings. So yeah, absolutely.
I've had some amazingopportunities, and I haven't
just let them wash by I've madethe most of them.

John Holt (10:28):
Wow. So Peter Blake, I mean, never met him. That's
obviously an experience that youjust can't recreate now amazing.
So, let's start with sport. Andthen I'm going to build into to
business and then I'm going totake on leadership and culture
just as a bit of a stick willnotice in advance very clearly
not not not only not just in thesport domain, but certainly in

(10:52):
your recent career. Guide methrough kind of the journey for
Raelene Castle having this, youknow, sport, focus and sport
passion.

Raelene (11:02):
So, both my parents represented New Zealand dead
before we were born, my brotherand I, Ryan and, and then less,
so he kept in the key reason,the 60s, and, you know, grew up
when he was still involved rugbyleague coaching and sleeping and
things. And the mum took upbowls, long balls and ended up

(11:23):
going for Commonwealth Games.
So sport in our house, wasn'tsomething we did it was our
religion really. Yeah. And Idon't think it until I've, you
know, got older and reflectedthe real upside and benefit and
why I'm such a believer in thevalue of sport as that it does

(11:43):
encapsulate many learnings andopportunities that you have in a
business environment that youhave, as a young person
navigating what the world lookslike, as you go into it, you
know, leave school, go touniversity, leave university,
try and get a job. And, youknow, so there's social
connections, that you have tomake the decision making that
have to make inside a game, youknow, leadership opportunities

(12:05):
that you get given, dealing withsuccess and disappointment,
because you get selected andthen you get dropped or you, you
know, get make the team that youwant, but don't get made the
captain.
And you know, so all of thoseare really good analogies and
alignments and learnings thatyou have, what you don't realize

(12:26):
that you're having until youfind yourself in a situation,
you know, that first jobsituation and how do you deal
with deal with it. And suddenly,you've got some skills and
capitals that you didn't realizeyou had, but you've you've
learned them through yoursporting engagements. And so I
think at a personal level, it'simportant at a national level,
it's important, because, youknow, it can bring New

(12:48):
Zealanders together. And we sawthat, most recently with the,
you know, black phones wantingthe Rugby World Cup was
extraordinary.
And I was just sharing thismorning of a story where not
only was the performance and thewinning extraordinary, but my
colleague was sitting in thestands, she bought her ticket
and on one side of her was athree generation D family who

(13:11):
stood up and signed the nationalanthem when it was sung. And the
other side of her was an Indiandad in his wife who had brought
his wife and four daughtersalong because he wanted to show
his young daughters how girlscould do anything. And he was an
opportunity to see it for real.
And then the national anthem wassung in Toronto, and in the
sweetest, most Intune loudversion I've ever heard at St.

(13:35):
John's ever an enormous sportingopportunities over the years.
And that was because it was adifferent crowd, it was a
younger crowd, it was, you know,more fan base. So it was it was
just amazing. And you know, Ibelieve that it can sport can
change lives. I'm not sayingthat, you know, musician or
drama or musical drama or actingor any of those other things

(13:57):
can't because they all do. Butin you know, New Zealand context
sport, you know, holds that intoend element. And we all know
that physical activity is goodfor us. And the more fit we are
unhealthy we are, the better wecan perform whether that's in a
work environment or funnelenvironment. So you know, across
the spectrum, it makes adifference in New Zealand. And

(14:18):
that's why I'm really believingthat.

John Holt (14:22):
I mean, as you know, I'm a bit of a I'm a bit of a
laggard, when it comes to sportnow embarrassingly, so of any
type of any gender. So I have tosay, I didn't follow it as
closely in the beginnings butcertainly cognizant, you know,
and those stories you just holda very poignant, I think, as
well, about what this this one,the woman's Rugby World Cup has

(14:46):
done. I mean, you know, on ascale of one to 10 how pivotal
Do you think this whole youknow, stack of what's been built
around the one actually is forus as a country?

Raelene (14:59):
Well, I think it's momentous. And if you think
about the sort of Hollywoodscript that was started way back
12 months ago, almost today,when black friends came home
after getting absolutely, youknow, told up to be honest by
France and England, and thesystems and processes that got
put around those woman, therewas a review, there was a, an

(15:22):
honest feedback where theculture wasn't as good as it
could have been. And so theylooked them in the face and
worked out what they need to dowith it, they appointed,
arguably, the world's one of theworld's best coaches, and Wayne
Smith, who had the manner tostep into that environment and
really make a difference.
And I was lucky enough to hearthat he said something really

(15:42):
interesting, which was thatwoman have to feel good to play
well, and mean, have to playwell, to feel good. And I just
think that's a reallyinteresting analogy about
dealing with the differences. Itgoes to diversity in
conversations, why it's valuablearound a board table, but why,
you know, you have to have, youknow, different voice, and we

(16:03):
have to think differently, youknow, in a sporting context,
woman aren't just little men,they're actually, you know, have
their own skills andcapabilities and their own
right. And then, you know, notonly that, but they actually,
you know, got through that, thatgame, and then they, you saw it
bring New Zealand together.
And then you saw the totalauthenticity of how female

(16:24):
athletes represent themselvesand how genuine they are and how
they can take on a journey. Soin a context of sport, you've
got to review, you've gotactions, you've got outcomes,
you've got implementation,you've got success, and then
you've got celebrating thatsuccess in a way that was
meaningful for the whole NewZealand. So you pick that story
up in a business context? Andyou go, right, how do I

(16:46):
implement that, and intosomething that's working inside
my, you know, businessenvironment, so important for
women's sport? It's, you know,I'm a great believer in you have
to build the base reallystrongly. And that's about
coaching strength andconditioning, building the
product so that the productspeaks for itself. And that's
when the commercial doorsfollow. And that's what the

(17:06):
Black Ferns showed us that thatcommercial dryers will follow
more significantly now for them.
Because they proved and showedto us a product that all sports
fans be a man or woman wants tosit down and watch.

John Holt (17:20):
Yeah, I mean, it's truly aspirational, isn't it?

Raelene (17:24):
Yeah. And it was, I think it was the way they play
the game as well, at some, youknow, not strength is not always
a good thing. And you know, lovemeans rugby, but it gets very
caught up in the Scrum and therack and where the ball was
doing the work and the woman'sgame, so they were adventurous.
So we're throwing the ballaround the scrims and Racket,
just a mechanism to rotate theball and get it back into play

(17:45):
again. So, you know, it's a,it's a sort of a different
approach. But that's what madeit you know, I had lots of
people, lots of middle, youknow, older middle aged men say,
it's like what rugby used to be.
We used to be before it wentprofessional, when you didn't
have 120 kilo guys playing onthe wing. And so that's a,
that's a, that's just a point intime, that's different. And the

(18:06):
woman's game will change as itbecomes more deeply and widely
professional. But we don't wantto lose those nuggets, because
that's what turned the crowd onand made it really interesting
to watch.

John Holt (18:18):
Yeah, and I love the way that you go back 12 months.
And you know, this is not astory that sort of, yeah, there
must have been and we'll comeback to this. There must have
been some pretty courageousconversations, some some, you
know, some facing into, as yousay, and for my two American
case, a toweling is, yeah, it'sa pretty sort of severe

(18:42):
continuous defeat of, of a team.
I don't know the Americananalogy of who got to telling
and NFL or the NBA or, or any ofthose. But if we can kind of
take that into the businesscontext. So get the sport pace.
Now. Now, the business side, andwe've already covered some of
that, as you say, in terms ofhow that that story is going to,
to lead to lots of reallyinteresting commercial side, but

(19:08):
give us your view on on businessand rolling castles sort of
career progression, and wewanted to end up and I think,
for me, my observationpersonally, would be that you've
been quite intentional aboutyour career path, which I really
admire. But I'm keen to seewhether you have the same view.

Raelene (19:33):
Probably only ever had one intention really and net as
when, at some stage, they buryme or actually, you know, have a
funeral that someone is kindenough to stand up and say she
made the most of everyopportunity. And that's probably
as is however, I have acompetitive underbelly. So

(19:54):
that's helpful because you wantto get to the next level and the
next opportunity and create thenext round. of engagement.
But I had always wanted to workin sport but didn't quite see
the opportunity to start andthat when I finished my Bachelor
of Commerce and the corporateworld, the reality of sport now

(20:17):
is that it is a big andincreasingly a very big
business. And so you do have tohave some good base skills in
the business context andexperience. And that's what big
corporates in this country givesyou.
They give you opportunity, theygive you training, they invest
in your professional andpersonal development, they teach

(20:38):
you how to write a really goodbusiness case, they teach you to
deal across departments, andyour navigate your way through
complex, you know, hierarchy andpolitical environments. And when
you overlay that into a sportenvironment, none of those
things are very different. Theyjust happen tend to happen on a
smaller scale. So I'd looked atsome sporting opportunities, but

(20:58):
never, never, they'd really feltquite right. And then I was
fortunate to just an introbefore I went to the Bulldogs, I
was CEO of netball, New Zealand,which was a perfect timing for
me.
I bought my commercial skills inhow to drive and open doors and
the sponsorship from commercialopportunity and to netball that

(21:19):
was launching the ANZChampionship, it was a joint
partnership with netball,Australia, which in itself is a
really interesting businesschallenge. When you think about
I'm going to your biggestcompetitor, and saying let's get
them to be together incompetition. So that's in itself
as an interesting dynamic abouthow you go about that, the
mistrust that happens on bothsides and have to build that

(21:42):
trust to ensure that there's,there's benefits for both sides,
in that, in that opportunityends, you know, we managed to
take a sport and double, if nottriple its commercial revenues,
because we bought a newcompetition to the market. We
talks amateur the sameefficiently athletes and turn
them into single freestyleprofessional athletes.

(22:03):
So the first time inAustralasia, that woman could
play in a professional, semiprofessional competition that
went for, you know, 16 weeks or,you know, sort of a half a year
and training and everything, butyou know, sort of 12 to 16 weeks
and then allowed them to earnenough money to survive and be
professional. And that had neverhappened in Australasia before.

(22:25):
Um, that was before the, youknow, AFL W's, and big bash
cricket and in the like. So, youknow, that was an incredibly,
incredibly proud of that and bepart of a team that managed to
pull that together and deliverit in a way that changed the
landscape for professionalathletes in a team environment
was was really special, but itwas my commercial experience in

(22:48):
the ability to like cutting adeal and knowing what a good
sponsorship deal look like,because I'd say on the other
side as a customer, was reallyhelpful as we as we built that
product.

John Holt (22:58):
Yes, super valuable.
I'd imagine. I mean, you know,the business context that it's
it's clear, obviously, as you gothrough that, that there's just
a lot of building blocks toaddress. And I guess that was a
strategy. And by the way,apologies, Wikipedia, they did
actually cover your new point,John, that was just a literacy

(23:18):
issue of the host, that I failedto mention that one as well.
Because I think that was, yeah,there was a lot to that, as you
said. So I'm going to go up tothe sort of top of my pyramid
now from from, you know, thatsport, aspect, the business
aspect to, to I guess, reallywhat sort of, well, for us
certainly brings those twotogether. And a lot of sensors

(23:39):
and a lot of what I love talkingabout with people, and that's
the cultural side of things, Ithink that's going to take us
into some pretty interestingspace, which I covered with,
with Natalie as well, aroundleadership and diversity and so
forth. But, but at a top level,you know, if you're in an
elevator with somebody, I mean,I'm not sure how many floors

(24:00):
you're going up, let's say it'smaybe 10 or 15. And you had to
sort of paraphrase culture fromwhichever way you want to talk
about what would what would youwhat would you say to somebody
in that elevator

Raelene (24:15):
it's about attitude in respect. You know, respect,
trust and respect as sort ofthose two words that get bandied
around all the time in relationto culture, but actually having
them on your office wall, orbehind the receptionist desk.
And actually loving them as a asan organization every day is

(24:36):
really different. And they, theypresent themselves in lots of
different ways. And so untilyou've got an environment of
trust and respect, andeveryone's bringing their best
attitude them besides to workevery day, then I don't think
you can really create a culturethat's vibrant and supportive

(24:58):
and to his capitalizationdeliver effectively and whatever
it is that you're you're lookingto. And that trust or respect
paces is hugely important has tobe led by the leaders, they have
to create that environment, youknow, being authentic as a
leader yourself, and making surethat they can see the real you

(25:22):
and that your values comethrough and the way that you
lead and engage with the personthat drives the forklift in the
in the building and a chance togo in and chat with them and say
G'day, and know as many names asyou as you possibly can and had
and really big organizations butbeing able to communicate at

(25:42):
that level, but also standobviously around a boardroom
table and do the things that youneed to do to represent your
organization and everyone inbetween. I think that's
important. You know, I got somereally good advice from my own
mentor who said to me, you know,be yourself be authentic,
because as one of yourstrengths, but don't get so
close, you can't kick their ass.
Yeah. So I think that abilityand leadership to see that, you

(26:03):
know, people are authentic andreal unapproachable and live the
values of the organization, butare prepared to make the hard
decision when the hard decisionis required. But that's done in
a way of with respect for thepeople that might be impacted,
or that the communication thatyou go about through that time
as as authentic and as genuineand caring as possible, can

(26:25):
actually see people in through atough situation actually leave
respecting the organization,because it was the way they were
treated. So you know, those betsare on important that trust and
respect also allows you to haverobust and respectful
conversation. So I talked aboutrespectful tension, drives
things forward. You can't allhave a big lovin, because you

(26:48):
all sort of you know, it'sreally good way to see
everything, you know, start toslowly go backwards, because you
haven't actually had the toughconversations and created the
change in the modern world thatwe need to need to make. But at
the same time, that's thattension needs to be respectful,
because when it gets lopsided,that's when the culture starts

(27:10):
to fall apart. So, you know,that would be way more than 15
floors worth of, well, he

John Holt (27:17):
got stuck at seven, he stopped.

Raelene (27:22):
But in simple terms, I would say trust and respect. So
these are not values, because Ithink, is values they're not
environmental, things trust andrespect in individuals bringing
their best selves and theirattitude, and open mindedness to
that every day are the threekeys, how you go about building
those things, as more than 15floors worth of explanation.

John Holt (27:44):
Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully, we are well, I'm
going to attempt to sort ofunpack more of that with you, as
well outside of the elevator,but know that trust and respect,
as you said earlier, it's it'sbandied around, but you know,
it's just trying to explain topeople what it truly looks like,

(28:05):
I think is a challenge, isn'tit?

Raelene (28:08):
Yeah, and I think it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's
putting your words into action,right. And it's action isn't
words, and it sort of soundsreally corny, and you get all
these sort of like, you know,throwaway, you know, comments,
but the reality is, is when yousee it in action, and you can
see where it comes to life, itall sort of makes that real. And

(28:37):
that, for me has, you know, beenone of those things that I've
seen in leaders that I've workedwith, in the example that they
see it, you know, my my mentor,who used to be the CEO of a more
of KiwiRail, here, in when itwas owned by toll and then, you
know, once a year, he would getin a train in Qatar and he would

(28:59):
go all the way to bluff in thefront with the train driver. And
he said, I would learn more inthose two days of experiencing,
you know, hearing from the traindriver because on the ground
talking to the peopleunderstanding what was
happening. I saw what it stoppedwhat it looked like when we
loaded things onto the train andoff the train. We know those are

(29:21):
those are the sorts ofopportunities that, you know,
are important, I think, toconnect to that level and really
understand what's happening inyour business at that at that
level. And, you know, I see GregForan, you know, serving the,
you know, the drinks and in thetea and coffee on in New Zealand
and, you know, he's reallyunderstanding what the customers

(29:42):
experiences and what it lookslike and how that, you know, is,
is real. And, you know, when Ifirst started and it was New
Zealand, I went on a tour and I,you know, I drove the minibus
and and literally got, you know,in and around the environment in
a way that wasn't insured. Firstof all, didn't wasn't didn't
hear any commentary, it just hadthe opportunity to observe and

(30:04):
actually watch and see what thechallenges were and see how the
team engaged with the coachingstaff and the strength
conditioning staff and to see itstart to see what good look like
and you know what, so that youcan start to taste and smell
what not good might look like.
And you know, those thosethings. So, you know, I think
that ability to relate acrossthe organization and feel

(30:25):
comfortable moving into thosedifferent environments, and you
can always taste and smell whencultures going well, and you can
certainly taste and smell itwhen it's not going well.

John Holt (30:36):
Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad you mentioned, great,
because I was gonna bring thatup, as well as an example to
sort of get us into into theleadership side, because I,
there was a piece, I think, inLinkedIn, you know, and I've
seen this pretty consistently.
And that's the point I'm goingto make to get your view on us.
Yeah, the comment on thisparticular post was around, you
know, is this just a stunt or,as the, you know, as the intent

(31:02):
there to do just as you'vedescribed, and, you know, as I
recall, I think I've seensimilar posts to that up to two
years ago, you know, probablynot two years ago, because we
weren't quite out of COVID. Butit's, you know, seems to be a
consistent approach and alsohave the benefit of some people
who knew him and his previousrole where his approach was

(31:24):
exactly the same in respect tovisiting stores, to just get
that on the ground stuff, andnot just once for, you know, for
a photograph for the annualreport, but just regularly and
consistently. Is that to sortof, you know, the, what have you
seen? And what are your feelingsabout that in terms of that sort
of classic sort of photoopportunity versus doing things?

(31:45):
You know, not necessarily a lotof things, but certainly the
things you do well andconsistently.

Raelene (31:54):
Yeah, and, you know, it's sort of, you know, I've
been lucky enough to, to hearGreg speak a couple times. And,
you know, he he is certainly nota one off, he does that really
consistently, I think, equallybefore him, Rob Fife, you know,
they had that excellent. InFrance, 15, Young, and he

(32:15):
definitely didn't jump on aplane. We had, you know, the
very tragic passing of Oliviaproblem or in suspected suicide,
and we got the group together,it happened late on a Monday
night, we got the key stafftogether, we had a conversation,

(32:36):
and I said, I'm going to driveto Cambridge, first thing I did
in the morning was get up withour director of performance
support, and we drove toCambridge to be in the location
where the grief was happening.
Now, I didn't know at thatstage, whether that I was going
to be of any value, I didn'tknow if I could do anything, I
didn't know whether exactly whatI was walking into, all I knew

(32:59):
was that we were going to havebetween cycling New Zealand
staff, high performance sport,New Zealand staff, we had a lot
of really devastated people thatdidn't know exactly what the
right things to do, were in themoment I got there, there was a
war room set up cycling NewZealand, we're working through
all of the different things thatthey need to consider how
they're going to support thepeople that need support. And it

(33:20):
was they were or, you know,already doing some really good
stuff, they greatly appreciatethe fact that we come to be part
of that our own staffsappreciate it. And, you know, I
ended up doing a pressconference that night, you know,
which I wouldn't have been ableto do if I hadn't been on the
ground. And, you know, so yousort of got in front of the
conversation. And whether thenit ended up in a press

(33:46):
conference, or whether it hadjust been on the ground, people
knew that you had shown thesupport. So sometimes that's
instinct, it's not actuallyabout it's definitely not about
the photo opportunity. And ifyou do reasons, that's the wrong
reasons. But actually, that, youknow, authentic, there was tons
of tears, there was hugs therewas, you know, you know,

(34:07):
checking in on people makingsure that they were well in, you
know, we had a cup of stuff thatwent missing, and we'd made sure
that people out to look afterthem. So you know, all of those
things are the important part.
And that's it trust and respectpace, which people only let you
into those environments and feelsafe with you there. If you've
built the trust and respect inadvance, can't just walk in on

(34:29):
day one and suddenly be there.
Was it like, well, who are you?
Why are you here? Like justbecause you wrote the title of
CEO doesn't mean that you canrock up and be part of something
that's so intimate in stressfuland emotional. So I often say
that title should only give youthe opportunity to prove your

(34:49):
own trust and respect in yourown style. Ultimately, it's what
you do that gives you therespect with title

John Holt (34:56):
and just being present, right just actually
fronting up

Raelene (35:00):
Yep, in fronting up to the hard things, right. And as
you said before, it is easy tofront up to the, to the, to the
positive things and the goodthings. But it's when it gets
really gnarly and difficult asthe most important time to, to
be seen. And that's, you know,the end of the day. That's what
leadership is, I think itpresents itself in a lot of

(35:20):
different ways. But it alsocomes with, you know, the pay
packet, right, the expectation,that is the person that gets
paid at the level that you dothat you do have to deal with
the good things, but you show ushow have to deal with the tough
things as well.

John Holt (35:34):
Yep. It's tough at the top. And I think the thing
about the last few years, if Iwas reflecting on it, the other
day with some folks is that, youknow, if you're the CEO or a
senior executive, or even at aboard level to a certain degree,
your decision matrix once you'veactually leaned in and truly
understood and you know, beingpresent, and you know, you have

(35:55):
that trust and respect that thatdecision matrix and again, I'm
going back to New Zealand, Ithink is a classic example is
not is not one where you getanywhere close to the ideal
result for all your stakeholdersisn't that

Raelene (36:12):
yeah, in this is also not one size fits all, I think
that's the other thing is, youknow, the experience to know,
winter lean and further knowwhen to step back, give people
some space, you know, what knowwhen you have to push other
people to the front and asituation because the
credibility in that particularenvironment is much greater than

(36:33):
your own credibility, you know,to deal with those situations.
Because, you know, it's hugelyimportant. So, you know, there's
lots of learnings around thatyou can see and pick up, you
know, as I said, every singleday, around how you can see
leaders doing this and in theirown way. And, you know, I'm

(36:53):
watching all the time for forthose things that, you know, I
can try and learn from andunderstand, you know, what good
looks like?

John Holt (37:00):
Yeah, yeah. And that's changing, I guess all the
time as well, just depending onthe context.

Raelene (37:06):
While others, you know, there's no doubt there's the
challenge. Well, some peoplewould say, its own challenge,
but the word that we're facingin post COVID, we've got a
generation of younger peoplethat think working from home as
is normal. And that, you know,like, you know, you've got year
one graduates tuning up aninterviewer and asking In how
many days a week Am I allowed towork from home? I can't even

(37:29):
imagine, like, when I first wentfor my first interview, like,
you know, I couldn't imagineasking something like that. And,
you know, that worries me, John,I think, you know, I really
believe in face to faceengagement in the conversations
that you pick up by osmosis thecharging, have a chat at the

(37:50):
watercooler the chance that youcan overhear something and get
involved in something fromthat's important to you your
role or your project or yourteam's project. And that's a
really hard thing to do on teamsand zoom, when you've got you
know, it's very linear, and it'svery much inside your own team

(38:11):
environment. So that, you know,really worries me about that
silo effect that it can have onan organization. And, you know,
there are some practical upsidesI know, you know, ANZ to have
decentralized a call center. Sofor, you know, working mums and
dads to be able to be at thecall center, and, you know, be
able to sit in and still dotheir job, but having

(38:33):
flexibility at home or thelocation they live, that's
amazing. And I can totally seehow that works. But when you're
in an environment where youknow, value of face to face
connection, and contact andconversations that are
multifaceted projects, there'sno doubt that face to face is
more effective, and that'soutcome. So trying to get that
right balance, where you've gota culture where people feel they
can be trusted in have some moreflexibility to not travel and

(38:57):
high peak times or, you know, goto the gym earlier straight at
five o'clock or 530 when theyfinish as opposed to a travel
home. All of those things aregood. But I do can I do worry
about what the impact on on theculture that we started this
conversation about? What theimpact will have?

John Holt (39:16):
Yeah, 100% agree. And I mean, you know, the ANC
example. I mean, you've gotclear metrics there, haven't
you? I mean, people areanswering calls at home. But I
think quite clearly, I don'tthink it's that contentious to
say that a lot of people justsee it as an easy, right?
Increasingly, or if they don'tsee it that way, they're not
self aware enough to think aboutactually where their

(39:38):
productivity and outcome levelgets to. By having, you know,
that different environment. Somepeople that's great, I believe,
you know, they can really focusbut I think what you're
highlighting here is just thatsort of contribution to team and
contribution to outcomes.
There's a lot of must withoutbeing face to face or close, you
know, close for center See toyour to your project or your

(40:00):
venture or you know, yourbusiness colleagues.

Raelene (40:05):
And I had an interesting, I was at a spoke at
a conference, the other lastweek for less than bold steps,
which is organized by DameTerez. Walsh. And she put to the
audience that she told the storyabout how when she was a young,
developing accountant, she had afamily drama happening, she had
to bring a young child into theoffice to pick up some files. So

(40:28):
she'd go to hospital, look afterother child and the partner said
to her, you know, this is a,this is an office, this is not a
crate, what is your child doinghere. And so you know, that's
not the reality of the worldthat we work in now, workplaces
are much more flexible aboutchildren being in there or the
flexibility to work from home.
But she put to the audience thatthere is a risk that this
doesn't end up being the bigregret of the progress that

(40:52):
women have made around equity,that we don't choose, remote
working in isolation, andmissing those opportunities that
you get, because how do you getpromoted, where you get promoted
by doing good job, and it'smultifaceted, right? It's not
just about the work that you doin deliver, it's how you engage
in environments, it's how youpresent it's how, what

(41:13):
leadership opportunities, do youstep into? What does that look
like, and if you're not gettingthose opportunities, because
you're at home, choosing to bework flexibly and care for your
children, which is obviouslyhugely important. You know,
let's not make this a momentthat we regret, because we have
made some good strides in theequity space. But but you'd hate
to see that go backwards. And Ithink come that there isn't a

(41:36):
conversation, we have to keeplive.

John Holt (41:40):
Yeah, and you've opened up now. So I'm gonna, I'm
gonna just dive dive straightin. Because, you know, that
woman and specifically in theleadership, you know, the things
that got me completely offscript with with Natalie was,
you know, in terms of youreading, you know, less than a
percent women CEOs globally as astatistic, whether it's the
right one or not, it doesn'tfeel that far off. And the point

(42:02):
is still, you know, horrendouslyclear, and I think, for me, the
challenges there, you know, ifyou look at consumer stuff, from
a marketing point of view, oranything that they, they throw
out there in an academiccontext, or even your own direct
experience, which you've had alot of, I mean, these decision

(42:22):
makers on large consumerpurchases are predominantly
women as well. And yet we havethese business structures where
there just not a lot ofdiversity and presence around
the table. Before we sort of getthrough that, I mean, looking
at, at your career, I mean,first woman CEO of a national

(42:44):
rugby league team, so reallykeen to perhaps start into that
conversation about yourlearnings or thoughts of that
even just getting appointed tothat I'm intrigued to whatever
level you're comfortable sort oftaking us through and then if
that wasn't enough, yeah, youknow, probably the highest
profile CEO role and Australiansport when it comes to

(43:05):
Australia, rugby, and all theall the challenges and so forth
that come with that. I mean, youknow, now with that sort of
women specifically in leadershipliens, what are your thoughts as
we sort of bake into some of thethings that we just parked for a
moment, through thoseexperiences around where we're
at and what we need to do?

Raelene (43:26):
Yeah, Sydney, the Bulldogs appointment was I was a
dream come true. My dad playedrugby live in New Zealand, I'd
grown up with him sitting on thecouch watching Winnfield cat,
which can be underestimated andwhy I felt more comfortable
stepping into the environment,because I had a, you know, 30
year, underwrite and to NRL, andactually understanding there

(43:50):
wasn't a rugby league player inthe last 25 years that have
played in the in around that Iwouldn't have had some
understanding, or at leastknowledge or name recognition or
so I could walk in a room ofgreat rugby league players and
identify the ones that I couldgo up and introduce myself and
know who they were. And they hada good base understanding of the
sport and the roles and so yousort of can't get away from

(44:11):
that. Like, it's like any job,right? You don't go in to be,
you know, a CEO in the fashionindustry, if you've got no
fashion experience, you can't goin and you know, so it's sort of
lent itself to that. They put methrough an interview process,
which started with 4000applicants. In Yeah, 4000 crazy
and ran it through to the end.
And that was the greatest giftthey could give me because there

(44:34):
was no there could be no commentaround. tokenism or, you know,
just doing this for publicity orany of that. And, you know, that
was a It had the Bulldogs hadhad some quite significant
cultural issues that had asignificant rape scandal that
had a big salary cap scandal.

(44:58):
And then suddenly when I firststarted, I'd go to I function
and sunny and, you know, peopleI'd say our handwriting casts on
the sea of the Bulldogs. Andthey'd go, oh, yeah, you're from
that rapist club. Oh, I'm like,Wow, that's good. The good thing
I can say, after four and a halfyears in that role, that wasn't
what people said to me when theymeet me. And there was a much

(45:18):
sort of wider and more familyoriented view of the Bulldogs
and how they were representedand the work that we were doing
in the community, we were thefirst ever NRL club to sign up
with white ribbon, which wasmore people send me you may,

(45:40):
that is just going to blow up inyour face, because we can have a
player on a domestic violencecharge. And I said, Yeah, you're
right, we might. But the wholepoint of what Robin is, how do
we deal with that? How do wedeal with it more effectively?
How do we look after the family?
How do we make sure that ourplayers understand the impact
that that's going to have on theteam environment? How are we
going to understandorganizationally, how to deal

(46:03):
with that and what to do withit. So, you know, some of those
things were really, you know,significant. You know, we as a
CEO, when you get appointed by aboard, that's a really pivotal
moment, because for a period oftime, you don't have to look
behind you. Because you can lookforward and concentrate on the
business. But when boardchanges, and you have to spend

(46:27):
time looking behind you, as wellas in front of you, that's when
being a CEO gets reallydifficult, because you should be
united the board and the CEOshould be nice, and you should
only have to work and walk intoone direction. And you know,
that's so that those first 18months or so when you know,

(46:48):
you've got a nice opportunity iswhere you really have to build
the relationships and thecredibility, and the trust and
respect that we talked aboutearlier into that environment.
So that when you do get somechanges on the board, that might
not be as straightforward thatyou've got some credibility to
to base the, you know, thedirection that you're giving to
the board into the into thewider organization.

John Holt (47:12):
Curiosity questions around that just for context. So
the first one, how many of those4000 applicants do you have a
feel for? You may know, we'refemale?

Raelene (47:22):
You know, what, actually, I don't know. And I, I
asked the question, you know,when they first approached me
about the job, I said, you know,I have a serious, you know,
would they seriously consider oris this just like a, you know, a
year we had a woman in theprocess. And I think the thing
that's most disappointing as I'mstill the only so there isn't,

(47:45):
there has not been anotherfemale CEO. And there was one
female CEO in the AFL, for whodidn't, for personal reasons,
and had to sit down. And they'vejust appointed the second female
CEO into the king rose. Andthat's exciting. And so they now

(48:07):
have a female CEO on the AFL.
But there still isn't a femaleCEO in the NRL. And, you know, I
don't want to be the only Yeah,I didn't particularly want to be
the first but I just was, Iwanted to be the first because
that broke the glass ceiling, sothat other woman can step into
those opportunities. And it'sprobably

John Holt (48:26):
you when, you know, and the your role in leadership
as CEO, you run a nationalchampionship run,

Raelene (48:32):
oh, we got beaten? No, we lost in the final. So South
beat us and 14. That will that'sthe that's the one piece
probably Jonathan, if I wasbeing really candid, that's the
one thing that I am reallydisappointed about, I think to
have left that and to have been,you know, the first, you know,
CEO of a club that won apremiership would have been

(48:54):
would be extra special, butunfortunately, we couldn't get
that one done grandfather was asclose as we got, which in itself
was a truly unbelievablymagnificent life experience that
you just you know, not manypeople get to experience but
yeah, I you know, I just that'sthe disappointing thing is Why
has it not open the opportunityfor other woman to step up and

(49:15):
step up into into thatopportunity? Because equity and
diversity around that table inour our leadership table is
hugely important. And it's, youknow, it's certainly not the
unkillable end at the moment.

John Holt (49:30):
So my second question to that then is when you were
appointed and today if you're ifyou know, I'm sure you do how
many of the board female

Raelene (49:45):
so it uh, you know, level I'm not sure the Bulldogs
worked hard during my time tobring some female representation
on the board which what'shappened and I know they still
have some female board directorsa female board directors today.
I wouldn't say that it's a ithasn't been as big a focus of

(50:09):
the NRL I think as it should be.
I mean, I think just 15% of yourgive or take between 35 and 45%
of your customers on any NRLclub are female, right? So they
have no female representation toyour point about buying
decisions represented on yourboard is nuts. It's nuts, right?
It's totally nuts. Apart fromthe fact that it's also a really

(50:32):
important way of taking anddriving your decision making and
performance forward. Becausethat's proven to that the more
diversity you've got on yourboard, the better outcomes for
your organization. And you'venow gone in a row W, which is
woman's teams being representedby about 50% of the NRL clubs in

(50:52):
so you still haven't gotrepresentation by female on your
board where you're makingdecisions. So just it's
illogical. It doesn't makesense. Sport is the last best
year. And I was actually sayinglast night, I couldn't find
exactly the right words. But ifyou think about democracy in a
way around the world at themoment, sport is actually the
last best in of have power andcontrol. So it's about federated

(51:15):
models, it's about my turn, it'sabout making sure I keep the
power and control for my littlepiece of the world, people
represent someone boards,wearing the hat for the the town
or the province or the team thatthey come from, as opposed to
representing the organization onwhich the board they're sitting

(51:36):
on. So that makes leading andsport really challenging as
well, because you can't make adecision as CEO and in effect at
and tomorrow, you have to takethe organization in the sport
with you. Yeah. So it creates alot greater and deeper
leadership challenges, thensitting at your table, when in a
big New Zealand corporate anddeciding to restructure and

(51:56):
getting on with it, you've gotto go through a lot of
consultation and engagement toget to those types of outcomes.

John Holt (52:04):
Or come back to the restructure piece. Because I
think that, frankly, is an easyout for a lot of people around,
you know, tough conversations,but just just rounding out this
sort of section, you know,Australia rugby, obviously, you
know, when you talk aboutdiversity, you face some pretty
interesting challenges there,you know, beyond the gender
issue. Any learnings or thoughtsbefore we go back into that sort

(52:29):
of how you actually structureand have these conversations to
move forward on these things?

Raelene (52:35):
Yeah, I mean, I had a very public challenge around
modern day diversity in IsraelFolau in the LGBTQ community. On
the one hand, it was reallycomplex, there was lots of media
interest, it was the fodder forbrilliant media headlines and

(52:59):
debates all around the rightsand wrongs of religion versus,
you know, communities having aright to have a voice and be
included in on the outside, itseemed really complex. The
reality is on the insideemployment contract, employment
issue, breach employmentcontract, breach are the values

(53:19):
of the organization. And as aleader, you've got to step up
and make those decisions. Andthey're not easy or
straightforward. But they arethe right ones, because I've
responsible to provide a safeworking environment. And I a
number of staff that didn't feelsafe, because they were from the
LGBT IQ community. So you know,but what my learning, John, I

(53:42):
think, is that as we move into aworld more and more, where
diversity is absolutely criticalpart of modern day leadership.
We have diversity and inclusionpolicies. And we use those two
words in the same sentence. Thereality is that they're like oil
and water. Yeah. So it's reallyeasy to have a diverse board,

(54:05):
right? So you can write thenames down, and you can say,
yep, this looks really good. Andin particularly in the context
that we face here in New Zealandof our bicultural journey, which
is something I'm enormouslyproud of and think New Zealand
will lead the world and, but howyou give everyone safe space to
be able to be open and honest inthat environment. And when

(54:26):
you've got genuinely diverseopinions coming from opposite
sides of the table, that's anincredible leadership skill to
be able to bring that togetherin a cohesive way where your
organization can continue toperform and, you know, that's
where it's sort of, it's easy,like I said, there's a policy
that goes division includes theones like job done, you know,
what behaviors right that gotthat policy, the practical

(54:48):
implementation of that is muchmore challenging, and, and that
certainly was my outtake of myexperience there. And I wouldn't
change that experience for theworld because it certainly
taught me a lot And, you know,I've always been someone who
feels, you know, personally verypassionate about the underdog
and making sure that everyone'sgot a voice. And, you know, that
was certainly an opportunity tostep up and represent a

(55:09):
community that hadn't had avoice publicly, or hadn't always
had a voice publicly.

John Holt (55:15):
And I think, or you highlight the errors, you know,
the systemic issues that oftenprecede you, as a CEO, right
around, you know, the contractsand the terms that are written
and policies and the way in theculture actually, that you know,
as, as kind of, you can changeit, and you can start
transforming it, but you, youare faced with, you know, what,
what has been sort of set out inthe past, which, now, back to a

(55:38):
lot of the narration you'vegiven so far, you know, what I'm
picking up is really, what Itotally agree with, is that it's
all about getting the buildingblocks in place to actually, you
know, build a house that thatstands up strong. And if you've
got some, you know, some legalor systemic elements of it,
which just slow you down, oractually take you down, you

(55:58):
know, different parts of thisincredibly challenging isn't

Raelene (56:02):
one of those, and I also think you've got to decide
what leader you want to be, insometimes actually, being the
leader that stands up to areally tough issue also means
you might not be the leader thatcan see that issue through to
the end, or continue doing whatyou were doing before. So
sometimes the person that has tomake the really tough decisions

(56:22):
and create a change anenvironment, a change in
structure, or, or, you know,actually turn an organization
upside down to evolve and changeyour culture and move some
people on might not be the rightperson to lead that through. And
sometimes I see leaderscompromise the decision or

(56:45):
decision making, because theywant to continue to be the CEO.
And I suppose I've always, youknow, been preferred to take the
the passage of being making theright decision for the
organization, in the moment inthe decision that you had to
make for the future of theorganization, recognizing that,

(57:05):
that you might not be there totake a vote. And I mean, you're
my my examples, as roughly howand free to Ebro Castile for
rugby, Australia, that was justdistinctly unpopular. Whilst it
was the right decision when yourbiggest competitors all got free
to ear, but it made some peoplein longstanding relationships
feel very uncomfortable. Andultimately, they decided that I

(57:28):
had having opened the door andcreate an opportunity for that
to happen. I wasn't the rightperson to continue it on, going
forward. And is that hard in themoment? Sure. But do I put my
head on the pillow and go, Ithink we made the right decision
for the organization with thechallenges that was facing?
Yeah, I think we do. So I canput my head on the pants label?

(57:50):
Well, because I think we did theright thing for the organization
to grow and move forward.

John Holt (57:54):
Yeah, and I think to your point earlier, you know,
and also to the points of thiscore, sort of, you know, what is
trust and respect look like?
It's, it's a, it's an incrediblyhigh bar lifted, if suddenly,
you have to be looking back andforth at the same time, isn't
that quite stressful?

Raelene (58:12):
Yeah, it can be and that's where having your, you
know, your there's a number ofdifferent ways to describe it,
but your your go to people, thepeople that you can trust to
have those conversations with,you know, the people that you
know, will call you out, and youcan be honest, and that feedback
and take that feedback, because,you know, it's coming from the

(58:32):
right place. It's why you can'trun your business through the
feedback from social media,because that is, you know,
irrational and all over theplace. But it does, and when
people see to me when I firstkind of CO will get lonely and I
probably didn't really quiteunderstood what that meant. And
And whilst I don't think I'veever been lonely, I've been
haven't been lonely, becauseI've been lucky to have some

(58:55):
really great people around methat I trusted to be able to go
and have a safe conversationwith, to make sure that I was
you know, heading in the rightdirection. And if I wasn't, then
I can change tech slightlybecause they gave me some really
good, you know, advice orfeedback, or, Hey, I could go
and have a glass of wine withpeople who don't care what I do
for a living and don't care whatis facing me every day. They

(59:17):
just know me, you know, from thegirl that went to school that
used to have a perm way back inthe 80s. Right? And they, you
know, so they don't care. So,you know, find your thing and
work out how you get out ofthat, you know, white hot heat
of leading. And, you know, makesure that you have the self
awareness to go and do it andtake yourself out of those
situations so that when you comeback in, you can be focused and

(59:39):
you can be come in with theright attitude and enthusiasm to
to do the hard, you know, Mahior the you know, make the tough
decisions you need to make.

John Holt (59:49):
There's probably a book title on that. You know,
from the girl we're preparing tothe leader in the sports
industry.

Raelene (59:57):
Don't go googling because you might just find a
photo

John Holt (01:00:00):
There we go. All right, there's an action item
for all of us, right after this.
I mean, we've got about 10minutes with you, and thank you
so much for your time, so closeto the end of the year, that
won't mean much to ourlisteners, because I don't know
when they'll listen to it, ifthey listen to it at all. I just
wanted to tackle two things thatI think sort of underpin this,
you know, the challenges, thelearnings, all of these things.

(01:00:21):
And I think it's something thatNatalie touched on in terms of
these a thirst and a dearth of,of good material, regardless of
where you come at it from awoman and leadership point of
view, or just leadership ingeneral, but, you know, the
basis for having thesecourageous conversations and
these frank conversations, youknow, I mentioned restructured

(01:00:42):
before, because my opinion isthat for a lot of leaders, a lot
of boards, even a restructure isa very convenient way of you
know, supposedly reducing riskby not having to have tough
conversations for people whojust, you know, bottom line is
not performing. What What's yourplaybook there? What are your
thoughts around, you know, thebasis for an individual

(01:01:03):
conversation, and then probablythe context there is, like, you
hear a lot of CEOs saying, youknow, there's a lot on at the
moment. And my view is, to yourpoint earlier, CEOs paid a lot
of money, and they have theirrespect and manner, and play
because they have to make thecalls and come with, you know,
they're probably an extra, anextra sentence to that, which

(01:01:26):
was, you know, there's a lot onat the moment, but we've chosen
to prioritize this. And then toyour point. And that means that,
you know, we haven't focused onthis. And that might be because
we don't have the skills or the,or the capability, we thinks
right there. And that mightinvolve some people being
replaced. But if I boil itright, back down to the basics,
again, you know, what are thosesort of platform elements for

(01:01:47):
you of having these these? Youknow, frank conversations?

Raelene (01:01:55):
Yeah, I mean, it is, it's not, it's not comfortable
for anyone, right? So no one inthe middle, how many of them you
have, they're always tough,right? So you always get that
sort of butterfly feeling inyour tummy when you've got a
difficult conversation withsomeone. So let's get there on
the table first. I think theimportant thing is that have to

(01:02:17):
be sure of your legal positionand make sure that you really
understand the issue that you'redealing with. But then you pack
that and put it in the in theback drawer, right. So that's
your back pocket. So you knowwhat that looks like, back and
you put the person in front ofyou and the front of that
conversation, because they are ahuman, they've got some, they've

(01:02:37):
got to feed the family or paythe bills, or the mortgage, or
whatever it is. And so you knowthat the conversations, I'm
going to be difficult in thethird thing is they will not
hear anything past, we need tomake your position redundant, or
we have a concern about yourperformance. Or, you know,
because once they hear that,anything you say to them after

(01:02:58):
that they will not hear. And sowhen you take the when you sort
of start with those threethings, that's a pretty good
place, I think to start havingthe conversation, when you have
some EQ and empathy. It's a thattends to help the conversation.
And I think ends up with abetter outcome where you might
need to have a person leave theorganization, but they'll still

(01:03:21):
leave it feeling trusted andrespected, rather. And that's
important. There is no doubt ourlabor laws at the moment are
very challenging, and certainlysit in deeply in the employee
space. Now, there's manysituations with it. Absolutely
right. But I do think it canmake some of these conversations

(01:03:43):
more challenging. So in a morepragmatic way, having a
commercial approach to aconversation, this is not
working for both of us, he is arespectful exit package that
enables you to continue to dothe things that you need to do,
but allows us to move on as wellas a good way to go. Now not

(01:04:06):
everyone's got a bottom linethat allows them to do that. And
not everyone when you work forgovernment like I am at the
moment that says Surely a greatway to go about it. But I do
think there's a balance inthere. Because the death by 1000
cuts is not fun for anyone.

John Holt (01:04:21):
I mean, there's never a perfect process as the but the
one challenge I do see with thatapproach, which I you know, I
very much aligned to is youknow, this issue I think we have
which I think is impeding a lotof our work around trying to
advance you know, more capableleadership of any sort is that
those sorts of agreements tendto put people out on to the next

(01:04:44):
job opportunity with a littlebit of a misconception about the
role they performed and how wellthey performed. And it just
fascinates and frights andfrightens me to see all sorts of
people turning up in similarroles. way, clearly, it just
hasn't. It hasn't been astrength of these for several

(01:05:05):
roles. If you look backhistorically, but that sort of
gets a little bit murky when youwhen you take that sort of trust
and respect approach.

Raelene (01:05:13):
Yeah. And I think there's always ways to word you
know, performance reviews or, orriff checks and things like
that, which can be sort ofpeople can read between the
lines, but I don't think we doeach other any favors by exiting
people from our business to saywe play through rather than back
good luck to the next businessthat comes along. I'm not sure

(01:05:36):
that's really a particularly I'mseeing you're all sort of a
different in middle managementwhere people can learn and grow
and change because theexperience that they've had, but
I think, I'm not sure that toyour point restructuring, you
know, is the way to go about it,because I don't think those you
know, is a talked about at thetop, you've got to show

(01:05:58):
leadership, sometimes that comeswith having difficult
conversations and removing nonperforming people from the
business. And you have to dothat in a way that's respectful
to them, but it's also the rightthing for the business.

John Holt (01:06:09):
Yeah, and I think when you talk about respect, I
mean, obviously, there'sdifferent time continuums,
right. And I think a lot ofpeople actually evolve and grow
to the point where they flip andfeel, you know, some degree of
disrespect, where the went frankconversations about what skills
and capability they had beenable to bring to a role and they
didn't, you know, in hindsight,now, they feel like, I didn't

(01:06:32):
have the opportunity to work onthose things to become better at
them, I just, you know, kind of,there was an easy path to, to
solving the problem primarilyfor the organization.

Raelene (01:06:42):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's where
professional development is areally important part of, of the
support that we should be givento employees. And, you know,
for, you know, sickness, manysporting organizations whose
resources are very thin, that'snot the reality of the world
that they live in, but in biggerorganizations that are really
well funded and well supported,and have, you know, great people

(01:07:04):
on culture teams, it has to bean important part of the support
that we give, you know, manypeople are under huge pressure
at the moment post COVID. And,you know, mortgage rates going
up and, you know, pressure withfamilies and, you know, having a
more holistic approach tolooking after your staff and a
more welfare well beingapproach, certainly in the long

(01:07:25):
run, will be more beneficial foryour culture. But you know,
ultimately, if you've got anunformed we got to deal with
them.

John Holt (01:07:33):
You did, right, we've got about four minutes. And,
folks, I'm, I'm the one to blamefor this. Because some my
technical team had some horribleissues at the beginning of this,
which they took some time to, todeal with. But we were back on
track. Now. The one thing Ihaven't covered that I wanted to
chat with you, and I'd love tohave you back later down the
track. If I do actually keepkeep doing this, which I'm

(01:07:56):
enjoying, actually, and I don'tknow how many people listening
but it's as this impostersyndrome element. Now, you
talked about professionaldevelopment. If there's one
thing that I you know, I'mhearing more and more that
really isn't well suited formany current sort of courses, or
academia and so forth is just,you know, just how to address
what seems to be an increasinglycommon challenge that people

(01:08:20):
have. And that's the way it sortof been rolled up as imposter
syndrome. What are yourthoughts?

Raelene (01:08:27):
I think we have to change the name. Yeah, we have
to change the name toparticularly to my female
colleagues, to normal

John Holt (01:08:34):
nerves, normal new

Raelene (01:08:36):
standard of standards, I'm not sure it's gonna fly. But
I think, as our females have tostart thinking about the feeling
of imposter syndrome is normalnerves. When you go into any new
job, when you step into anemployment process, when you
turn up on your first day,whether you're the accounts

(01:08:57):
clerk or whether you're the CEO,it's hard, right? It's
everyone's looking at you andyou're going, I'm not sure where
to go and how to use the toiletand use the toilet isn't find
the toilet, and make a cup ofcoffee, but until we until our
female, next level of femaleleaders in and female executives

(01:09:23):
actually put themselves forwardfor opportunities with the
confidence that they can do thejob. Equally as well as in male
colleagues, be it in a differentway with a different approach.
And use will be a bunch ofthings that you don't know how
to do. And you still be thingsthat you need to ask people for
help with. That's normal.
There's nothing abnormal aboutthat. That's totally the way the
world works, and have theconfidence to step in and be

(01:09:43):
really good at the things thatyou're good at and know that
you're going to have to ask forhelp on the things that you're
not so good at is part of theconversation and being nervous
about how that feels and notlacking confidence in certain
areas is something that we haveto have an open canvas session
about because if we canproliferate this conversation
about imposter syndrome, thefemale we will continue to

(01:10:05):
struggle with gender diversity,that is just the reality of
because you can create theopportunities. But if the female
executives aren't prepared towalk through them, because
they've got impostor syndrome,that's not very helpful. So I
started the conversation normalnerves, not sure if it'll get
traction, but I really thinkit's a conversation that we need
to have

John Holt (01:10:26):
normal nerves I'm going to say it from now on. So
they've got another supporterthere, I think it makes total
sense. And it brings somebalance to the discussion as
well and takes it takes it awayfrom an immediate assumption
that it's just one sector of, ofhumanity's challenge. I love it.
We're out of time. Reallyappreciate you taking the time

(01:10:49):
again, at a very busy time ofyear. It's been a fantastic
conversation. And I'd love toalready invite you back at some
stage perhaps to actually leadout with normal nerves and just
some more thoughts around youknow, the support and, and the
thinking as you evolve that Ithink it's a fantastic way to to
sort of drive some change,which, yeah, impostor syndrome,

(01:11:11):
I think as well and truly doneit's ships as a general sort of
Calabria collection of a numberof challenges that we have. So
thank you, Ryan Castle, I reallyvalue your friendship and really
appreciate you taking the timeto do this. You are of course,
also an advisor to all thingsconsidered my eventual Andre Van
De Mille. And I reallyappreciate that and the last

(01:11:33):
word is yours and terms of whatthe good folks out there might
might sort of hear from you as afinal statements, as they wait
for my appalling end music ofpodcast. A little tip for you
don't actually have to listen tothat you just press the pause or
stop or just kind of hit thecrossness that's not there. But

(01:11:55):
last word is yours.

Raelene (01:11:56):
Thanks. And thanks for having me. I appreciate it and
really enjoyed the corded. Oh,so that's, that's great. Ah, I
don't know don't believeeverything you've read in the
media about if you GoogleRowling castle. No, seriously, I
think, you know, I've beenreally fortunate across my
career to work with someunbelievably great people. And

(01:12:17):
that's where I've done all mylearning in there's different
ways of approaching things andit doesn't always have to be by
how the boxes heard or you know,there's it's called experience
for a reason and you can see andlearn from those people around
you on any given day. That'scertainly been my learning
journey. And I've been lucky tofilled with some some great

(01:12:38):
people, some great colleaguesthat I that I've turned into
friends and for that I'm reallyappreciative

John Holt (01:12:44):
rather than Castle Kubota, or any ta I mean, in
that making a and Murray currycommittee. Thank you so much.
Chiara. Chiara.