September 18, 2023 • 54 mins
"Can family support ignite addiction recovery? Join us as we talk with Jill Prevas and Lisa McDonald, distinguished BALM family recovery coaches. Jill uncovers family dynamics and their monumental role in the recovery journey, shedding light on denial, awareness, and entrenched patterns. Lisa explores how addiction amplifies pre-existing family issues, emphasizing the importance of a supportive family in long-term recovery.
Discover the BALM Recovery Program's transformative potential, empowering families and their loved ones. Explore setting healthy boundaries and navigating judgment and manipulation. Uncover the life-changing power of 'Healthy' unconditional support in the complex landscapes of family dynamics during addiction recovery.
As we conclude, delve into the transformative strength of detachment, hope, and resilience in addiction recovery. Witness how non-clinging love and healthy boundaries foster connection and support for families facing addiction. Explore the BALM Program's potential in equipping families with tools for their loved one's recovery journey. Don't miss this enlightening conversation, a comprehensive guide for families seeking strength and support in addiction recovery.
Home: Family Recovery Coach | Family Recovery Coaching | Seven Valleys, PA 17360 (familyrecoverysupport.com)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to a therapist of Buddhist sinew as
we continue our compellingfour-part series dedicated to
National Recovery Month.
Throughout this series, westand shoulder to shoulder with
millions amplifying the voicesadvocating for addiction and
mental health awareness.
But here's a startling fact.
You were someone you know ismost likely grappling with the
consequences of drug addiction.
(00:22):
Right now, in the US alone,over 21 million battle substance
use disorders, and the rippleeffect touches countless more
Families, friends, communities.
It's an issue that knows nobounds, transcending age, race
and socioeconomic status.
In today's episode, we divedeep into the heart of family
(00:44):
support and addiction recovery,because the truth is, addiction
affects not just the individualstruggling with it, but everyone
around them.
The pain and challenges facedby families are immense, and yet
they often go unnoticed.
So if you're listening to thisright now, it's because you
understand the gravity of thesituation.
(01:05):
It's because you, like us,believe in the power of
compassion, education andsupport to transform lives.
Today we are joined by guestJill, previously a McDonald's
distinguished BALM familyrecovery coaches, who are here
to share invaluable insightsinto how families can find their
strength and play a pivotalrole in the recovery journey.
(01:26):
Our aim is simple To provideyou with the knowledge and
inspiration you might need totake that crucial step towards
healing, whether for yourself, afamily member or a friend,
because within the midst ofadversity, it's support and help
that light the way to recovery.
So stay with us.
Together we'll explore the pathto empowerment and healing.
(01:49):
Jill and Lisa, and always mydistinguished co-host, is all
welcome everyone.
So thank you all for joining ustoday, and let's kick it off
with you.
Know what do you think offamily recovery?
And it's often frequentlyovershadowed or overlooked when
(02:11):
addressing the addiction issues.
Why don't we start there?
What comes to mind when we seeit on our end?
But tell us more about that.
Why does that happen so much?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Well, I'll jump in.
It's an honor to be here andyou know I do what I do
professionally, but I also dowhat I do because I'm a family
member that was impacted by thisdisease in a big way, and
that's my daughter, who, I amhappy to say, has 13 and a half
years of uninterrupted sobrietyAwesome, so, but I think the
(02:47):
family misses it so much.
There's a couple of thingsDenial Okay, I was majorly in
denial.
I was a high school nurse.
I knew everything about drugsand alcohol.
I was trained by the localpolice to do impairment
assessments.
If an administrator thought astudent was under the influence
and we tell our daughter whenshe entered adolescence, if you,
(03:09):
when she started going toparties, if you come home high
or drunk, I'm going to knowbecause I'm going to do an
impairment assessment.
She later told me, mom, everysingle time you told me that I
was so high, I wasn't lookingfor it.
I wasn't looking for opiates.
I thought you know typical highschool weed and alcohol.
And she was a full blown heroinaddict and I missed it.
(03:31):
I thought eating disorderbecause she was losing weight.
So I think the denial part, thefear that's underneath of it
all, can be paralyzing and justand not knowing what to do with
all of the emotions, and thenfamily members thinking that
they're in it alone, when ofcourse we know none of that is
true.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, so that personal piece.
What about you, lisa?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
My experience is on the opposite side.
So I am a person in long termrecovery myself, and when I look
back at what early recovery waslike for me, what I see in my
family was that I had twoparents who loved me very, very
much, who felt very muchresponsible for how I turned out
(04:20):
Right, and so if I didn't turnout the way I was supposed to
turn out, then that must bethere fault.
So in my family what it lookedlike was that my parents were
not able to face A that I was adrug addict and I also I mean,
(04:41):
in the end I weighed 85 pounds,so it wasn't as if it was a
secret Right, Like there wasclearly something going on.
Get past their own feelings offailure and that's true to this
day Like my parents still try totake responsibility for my
addiction and the road that Iwalked and how they should have
(05:03):
done this differently and theyshould have done that
differently.
And so I think that oftentimessubstance use disorder takes
hold in families where there isalready unhealth Not always, but
a lot Right, so there's alreadyunhealth in my family and then
(05:24):
enter drugs and alcohol, whichfor me was a solution to the
problem, but what it did was itexacerbated the problem in my
family and it requires I meanJill talked about it denial
right.
It requires you to take thefocus off of that person who is
(05:44):
actively using or strugglingwith substance use and put it on
yourself and turn thatmagnifying glass or that
microscope back on yourself, andso I think that's really hard
for anybody.
But I also think there's thisidea of well, if I just want to
help my loved one, I just wantthem to stop using.
I just want to help my lovedone, and there's a disconnect
(06:07):
between the understanding thatwe have as professionals that if
you help yourself you're betterprepared to help your loved one
and what that family is goingthrough in that moment.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, it's amazing how addiction makes the
unhealthy unhealthier.
Right, it really cultivatesthat.
We talk about cultivatingrecovery, and you both give
examples of the barriers thatprevent families, whether it's
the denial, the lack ofawareness or just patterns that
(06:39):
we have as family members.
Zal, can you take us back towhen you were younger and your
family dynamic?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, family is a very powerful thing, which I
think is great as children, butalso quite hard to solve,
because as a child I saw theworld through my parents' eyes
and it's also especially in Asia.
Who do I compare it to?
How would I know?
So it's really it's a verynuclear, tight-knit family.
(07:10):
So even if there is somedysfunctional going on, it's a
very integrative andall-inclusive kind of approach
that you guys do, which is, theysay, addiction is a family
disease, not just one individual.
So I relate to that a lot.
My parents don't have access toany of these services You're
right about me getting, but theydid go through a lot and there
(07:34):
still is some kind of adisconnect.
But better is a way of helpingthem too.
So this is a really powerfulapproach that you two are doing.
That's how I relate to it.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And you guys shared some of the flame or the
compassion that got you guysinto the recovery coaching field
.
Tell us more about thedevelopment of the bomb version
of recovery coaching, if youwill.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
We've been around longer, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
All right, I didn't want to be the first one always
starting Okay.
So BOMBALM stands for be aloving mirror and what?
And so Lisa and I are bothcertified in this amazing
curriculum and that is whatattracted me to the program to
want to become, to leave nursingand become a certified BOMB
(08:28):
family recovery coach becausethere is curriculum.
So I got certified in it andthen my families that I work
with have curriculum that I'mgoing to help walk them through
and there's programs and toolsand all sorts of things and
basically what we teach familymembers is how to mirror back
(08:50):
the love and the peace that theywish to see in their loved one.
And if you think about that,when you're dealing with
substance use disorder, whenyou're dealing with mental
health issues, there's not a lotof love and peace going around.
You know it's either fear,anger, shame, resentment.
You know you name the emotion.
The other big component of BOMBis that we're not only teaching
(09:13):
them how to do this for theirloved ones, but also how to be
that loving mirror to themselves.
And I know for me I had a lotof guilt and a lot of shame and
I was grateful at the time Ididn't have BOMBALM but I had
ALANON.
I was so grateful to hear thatI didn't cause it.
I couldn't cure it, I couldn'tcontrol it.
That relieved me.
(09:33):
But I was also taught you couldcontribute, and so in the BOMB
program we're teaching familieshow to contribute to their loved
ones recovery, and the way todo that is they need to change.
There needs to be atransformation that takes place
within them, and it's amazing towatch it happen.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Lisa, can you give us a little bit I mean as a coach
and Jill, you mentionedcurriculum.
What's an example?
One thing that I love about theBOMB program and working with
BOMB coaches like Lisa and Jillin conjunction with family or
recovering addicts andalcoholics, is that tangible
(10:14):
tools that people that you workwith can do.
Lisa, can you give us anexample of a key principle or a
core concept that you guys do asBOMB recovery coaches for your
clients?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Sure.
So you know, the BOMB programis a robust program, but it
really comes down to a couple ofthings.
So it really is about takingresponsibility for me and
allowing other people, givingother people the dignity to take
responsibility for them, andthat's really hard for family
(10:52):
members and so, as I work with afamily and as they move through
the BOMB program, there is astructure to it.
There's a structure, there's anorder, there is a simplicity
within that order and thatstructure, and it is built on
some very key principles of lovefirst right.
(11:21):
So everything comes out of love.
Love is the solution, love isthe answer and not love like I'm
gonna approve of everythingthat you do and I'm not gonna
say anything to hurt yourfeelings, Not politeness, not
enabling, but love that says Ilove you enough to stand firm
(11:41):
right here in this place andlove you regardless of what you
go through and while you gothrough it.
However, I'm not gonnaparticipate in that right, which
is a tension of acceptance ofthe reality of the situation,
(12:03):
without approving necessarily ofyour loved one's behavior, and
finding the tension in betweenthere where you can sit and be
okay to love that person wherethey are, and I think the other
thing that is paramount iscommunication, and that's one of
the things that I thinkattracts a lot of families in
(12:25):
the beginning is everybody inwhat do I say?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
What do I say?
What do I do?
Tell me what to say.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
We have so much, we just need to learn to
communicate right, and they'renot wrong.
They do need to learn tocommunicate differently, and so,
within the Balm program, wehave a structured course called
the seven steps course thatteaches people, step by step, a
method of communicating withtheir loved one that will allow
(12:52):
the message of I love you and Iwant what's best for you.
I wanna help you to comethrough, because it eliminates
the judgment, the shame, theexpectations, the manipulation,
and it becomes like this, reallypure form of communication,
just like a mirror, right,because a mirror doesn't judge,
(13:14):
it just reflects.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, I really liked the abbreviation of be a loving
mirror.
Everything's all included inthere about love, but also I
don't know if it's like a madeup term or if it's the actual
term of like the mirror neuronsthat we have that we are always
mirroring what we see, so it isa powerful tool too.
Like in our Buddhist traditionthere's a loving kindness
(13:41):
practice where when you areradiating loving kindness, other
people, whether they know it ornot, they pick it up, you know.
So it's better to originatewithin you instead of like
copying the anger that the otherperson is feeling.
So I really love that approachof loving mirror, but also, at
the same time, that concept ofI'm not responsible for somebody
(14:03):
else's happiness, you know, butin the curriculum is there like
a specific way because in afamily that's a really hard pill
to swallow that if my son isunhappy it's because of me.
You know, and I need to dosomething about it that that
might be a challenge.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, in the curriculum, in the seven steps.
Specifically, the third step isbeing in touch with your own
emotional landscape.
You know, and what I find, andI'm sure you guys as therapists
you know, most people don't knowhow to be in touch with their
emotions to begin with, and sowe're really, you know, we help
to give them tools as a coachthat's my role too to help them
(14:44):
listen, you know, and reflectback to the family member.
What I'm hearing like it soundslike I'm hearing a lot of fear,
right, it sounds like I'mhearing, you know, a lot of
anger right now coming up andgetting them to talk about it
and verbalize it.
Because here's the thing, andI'll just talk from my own
experience I was, I thought, asa mom, I needed to be the
(15:05):
cheerleader, I needed to be up,I needed to be.
That's also my personality.
But what I wasn't doing was Iwasn't dealing with my own
emotions.
You know, and I learned thatyou know, if I don't deal with
the emotions and I share withfamily members, if you're not
dealing with these emotions,they're gonna come outside ways.
And so then, when you're now inthis place and we do it, we
(15:27):
spend a lot of time teachingabout the art of getting quiet,
the art of meditating, the artof breathing.
That's the very first step.
And it's amazing because mostfamilies, you know when I meet
with them and we'll start offwith some 4, 4, 8 breathing, you
know, breathe in for 4, holdfor 4, exhale for 8, and I just
(15:49):
do four rounds of that and Ijust see them on the Zoom screen
like the whole.
You can feel it, you can feelit yeah.
Yeah, and so then when they'rein that place of peace and calm,
their loved one hopefully willhave a better chance of hearing
them and then they're not asvulnerable for their loved one
(16:11):
to start manipulating theiremotions.
And that's key, because mydaughter was really good at
doing that.
She knew how to get me angryand she knew what.
Then how I would come back andI would feel like the bad guy.
You know that whole.
You know Cartman triangle whereyou've got the victim and the
rescuer and the persecutor andshe would be the victim and
(16:32):
really good at putting me in thepersecutor role if I wasn't
rescuing her.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So yeah, I call it emotional awareness, and
eventually the language turnsinto emotional recovery, right.
Yes and that separates us as aspecies, where we're not a
family of deer, where we areeither in love, fear, fight or
flight.
We can be in more emotions thanjust that.
That fine-skilled tune skillthat addicts have of emotional
(17:00):
manipulation, yeah, yeah, verycool.
Yeah.
That balance between providingsupport and setting healthy
boundaries during that recoveryprocess can seem so foreign and
fearful.
Like what do I say to do that?
What?
Just tell me what to say?
As opposed to the skills thatyou guys are talking about, Are
(17:20):
there any other commonmisconceptions or myths about
family members role in therecovery process that you guys
often come across, where peoplefeel that they should too or
need to do that and you guyshelp them identify?
Well, maybe that's not yourrole as a loved one or as a
family member.
What do you think, Lisa?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
I think when I come across a lot, because I tend to
work with a lot of parents whoseloved one is their child that's
just the demographic of peoplethat I have as my clientele
right now I hear a lot well, I'mjust I mean, I'm a mom, I'm
never gonna stop worrying, orisn't that just being?
(17:59):
Isn't that my job?
It's my job as a mom, right?
Or I think the other thing issometimes, when you're teaching
a family to figure out who ownsa problem, so that they can see
what their true role is,sometimes, when you recognize
(18:21):
that somebody else owns aproblem, you also, at the same
time, recognize that if theymake a decision, even though
it's their decision to make, andthose consequences are gonna
primarily affect them and Idon't really get to decide about
it, that doesn't mean it's notgonna affect me, and so a lot of
families that I interact withare really afraid of the impact
(18:46):
of their loved ones.
I'll say failure, but it reallynot that that means that
there's a complete failure, butif a loved one makes a mistake
or if they Struggles yeah.
Right, exactly.
And then I, as a mom, am goingto feel emotionally distraught
because I have to decide whetheror not I'm going to go bail my
(19:07):
kid out of jail.
I don't want to feel that.
So instead I'm going to nag andI'm going to try to control so
that I don't ever have to get tothat point of making that
decision.
And I think when families,really when family members can
recognize that fear point that'swhen I have seen like
(19:28):
exponential growth, because thenthey're owning their own fear
they're recognizing that thisfear is actually my problem, but
I'm putting it on my loved oneby trying to control them so
that I don't have to make thathard decision.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, and I think you said it, that that fear leads
to a behavior and action ofwanting to control, to prevent.
So when they have thatemotional awareness and that
fear, how do you help them withthat?
Oh, holy jeez, I'm doing itagain.
I've got this fear.
I want to proactively preventthat from happening.
What do I do?
What do you tell them when thathappens?
(20:03):
Because it happens all the time.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
That's where boundaries come into play.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Because the boundary is there to keep me safe.
So I don't need the fear tokeep me safe.
I don't need the control tokeep me safe.
I don't need the manipulationor the enabling to keep me safe
or the anger, because I know howto set boundaries that are
healthy, that will keep me safe.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So let's talk about that word for just a moment.
The word boundary I thinkpeople struggle.
We did a whole episode onforgiveness and what it is and
what it isn't.
I think people struggle withthat.
I think the same thing canhappen with that word boundaries
.
What do you guys mean byholding healthy boundaries, Jill
(20:49):
?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, and can I real fastest mention the fear part
too?
Because I love what Lisa said asfar as boundaries.
But let's say, the familymember isn't even there yet.
They don't even know how to setthe boundaries, and I know this
from my own experience.
Fear is typically going in thefuture.
(21:10):
And so in the bomb, we alsoteach a lot of really good
methods of how to bring yourselfback to the present moment,
because in the present momentusually everything's okay.
The loved one has a no deed,the loved one isn't in jail,
they are in jail while they'rein jail.
And just so the bring them backto the present moment, and
(21:31):
sometimes it can be as simple asfocusing on the task at hand.
You know, I'm driving my carright now, I have my hands on
the steering wheel and I amgetting ready to turn on the
turn signal.
And just so that you'restopping that fear loop and
you're stopping that going intothe future, the future in
catastrophizing.
And I was really big at doingthat.
(21:52):
And then I even realized onetime I was future rising.
I even said to my husband isthat a word?
Because I was future rising myemotions.
I was even telling myself whatI was going to be feeling in my
emotional state like in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
It's insanity, it's crazy making so if we were that
good at predicting the future,then we'd be rich.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, that's exactly right, we would, and most of the
things that happen, that wethink are going to happen, don't
happen.
They really don't.
So for boundaries, you know,the crucial part and Lisa
already touched on this is thatthe family knowing the boundary
is for them.
You're not setting a boundaryto change your loved ones
behavior.
(22:35):
You're setting a boundary tokeep yourself safe, whether that
means emotionally safe,physically safe, financially
safe, and so you set thatboundary.
And then the other part of thatis leverage.
And a lot of times I too workprimarily with families that
(22:55):
have adult children and there'susually a lot of leverage there.
You know the leverage might be.
You know well, if you know youwant the car, then you know I'm
only going to support that.
If you're seeing Luke once aweek.
I've recommended that asleverage with some of the
(23:17):
families that I work with.
Or I'm only, you know, going toyour only.
We're only going to help youwith your car if you're
following the guidance of theprofessionals.
And here's the boundary that myhusband and I used, and I
encourage family members to useit all the time, because it's
really pretty simple If yourloved one is working with a
professional and you as a familyare trusting the professional
(23:39):
that they're working with.
Your boundary is we are goingto support recovery and what the
professionals recommend Period.
So if they're pushing them, ifa loved one's pushing that
family member, I really don'twant to be here.
And you know, are I theretelling me I need to do this and
you say you know well what'syour therapist saying and
(24:02):
they're like, well, they think Ineed to go to you know IOP,
after I get out of here.
And then if the family can juststay firm in that, that's what
we're supporting too.
We love you.
If you want to go figure it outon your own, you are more than
welcome to.
And that's the other thing toremember is that word choice.
The loved one has a choice, andso does the family, and that
(24:24):
can bring a lot of empowermentback to the family dynamics and
the dignity that the familyneeds as well.
Instead of being the doormat Iused to always say I feel like a
doormat, I feel likeeverybody's always walking all
over me.
Well, guess what they were?
Because I was allowing them to,I was giving power over me.
And here's the biggest thing Donot, do not family set a
(24:47):
boundary unless you are 100%sure you can keep it.
If you know that you can don'tset it, let's talk about some
other boundary, maybe shorterbaby steps.
But because, as you guys know,you set a boundary and break it,
you take five big stepsbackwards.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's an empty threat.
And then the attic brain goesoh, I can manipulate you, You're
not.
I can do what I want, becauseyou're just you're all talk.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
I'm not sure if how this is entirely related to
boundary, but I did want to askyou about you know you mentioned
about the needs you know like.
From my experience and alsofrom what I've seen, is that a
big part of addiction or causefor the addiction is that there
is an unmet needs that is to bemet and it can be met through
(25:39):
unhealthy means and then it'snot sustainable.
So is there also a processwhere the coaches help either
the the attic him or herself orthe family, identifying where
their needs are and then gettingthose needs met, not being
dependent on a person but justlike through healthy means, and
then like staying within thatboundary that I need to have my
(26:02):
needs met but not through theother person's happiness?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
So we teach our families an enormous amount of
self care.
And so self care from all fourperspectives, right physical,
emotional, mental and spiritualself care.
And that actually is reallyhard for a lot of families as
well to actually take the timeto care for themselves in a
(26:29):
healthy way.
Not, you know, self caredoesn't mean that I'm going to
sit up all night and watchNetflix because that's how I
feel better, because it's anescape.
That's actually not self care,right.
But you know, when we firststart to work with families, we
actually have several differentassessments that really do kind
(26:51):
of put a finger on where is myself care right now, where do I
need to have some improvement inmy self care and what would
that look like?
And through the coachingprocess, once families become
aware of what the options arefor self care and the need for
self care, that's where a lot ofthe coaching kicks in, because
(27:11):
sometimes it can be really hardfor people who aren't acquainted
with self care to figure outwhat's gonna work for them.
And that's where the coachingrelationship can really kick in
to high gear, because you'retaking what you learn in the
bomb on the bomb platformthrough the online curriculum
(27:35):
and you're bringing it into yourspecific situation and specific
to needs.
We actually have a chart that Iactually use with families and
with people in early recoveryand the chart is actually called
what Are my Needs and it takesyou through, like these seven or
eight key areas of your life,like spirituality, physical
(27:56):
health, physical activity, diet,sleep I can't remember exactly
what they all are and it asksthe individual to kind of think
through what are my needs ineach one of these areas and, on
a daily or weekly basis, what amI doing to meet those needs?
And that really helps people toself identify, which, when I was
(28:16):
talking in the beginning aboutthis idea of being responsible
for yourself and personalresponsibility, we don't
actually ever say to people yougotta work on that personal
responsibility.
It just happens as a result ofself awareness.
They become aware and they takeresponsibility through the
(28:37):
process of walking throughthings like the what Are my
Needs chart.
Or we have another tool that wecall who's Businesses.
It really does a great job ofidentifying is this my business,
is this my loved one's businessor is this God's business?
And those tools bring aboutself awareness that those family
members can then act on.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, one way I break that down for my clients is
this right, is this wrong, isthis healthy?
And it's just being able toidentify similar technique of
okay, what's my business, whatare my wants, what are my needs?
What is healthy?
What do I want to be healthy,because in this addiction toxic
(29:21):
cycle, it's the addiction wantsto say sick and the addiction
wants to kill them, and anythingit can do to manipulate the
addict themselves and the lovedones and family members to stay
sick and continue to use it'sgoing to do so.
It sounds like you guys aregiven a bunch of wonderful
techniques to go okay, do Isupport their recovery?
(29:42):
Do I support their toxicity andtheir addiction?
How do I support myself?
You know this is great.
So I'm hearing a lot ofBuddhist principles in here.
Are you?
What's jumping out at you?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, I mean, I feel like
there's so many spiritualprinciples that are paradoxical.
You know like that's also whatI'm hearing too that family love
is actually maintained andsustained through keeping things
separate, you know, or stayingwithin the boundary, although a
family is like part of a unit.
(30:14):
But it's kind of paradoxical.
You know, if I truly love mybecause that's what I have
noticed in my own family thatit's very unhealthy and
dysfunctional where people arereally dependent on each other
emotionally.
So that's what I'm hearing aswell.
But in terms of communicationtoo, I do wanna ask about that.
(30:37):
That, since the program's namelove being part of it is that a
big part of addiction or a bigpart of problems, dysfunctional
emotional problem comes from aplace of that I am not loved or
I will not be loved, or if I amfound out as exactly as I am, I
won't be loved, or kind ofmisunderstanding that I'm not
being loved, or I'm not beingrecognized, my parents don't
(30:58):
care about me, you know thingslike that.
There's a lot of likeassumptions or miscommunication
that needed to be dispelled, youknow.
So I wanted to ask about thattoo, in the families that you
help, that, yes, you are loved.
You know, no matter what, byyou know, if you have a concept
of your higher power or God, youknow your needs will be met.
(31:19):
Is there a part of the trainingand the education to the family
member or the person withaddiction as well, tools that
can help kind of retrain that?
Speaker 3 (31:31):
So for the family side, because I hear all the
time well, I don't want them tothink I don't love them.
You know, if I'm setting thisboundary, they're gonna think I
don't love them and I, you know,it's teaching them that the
love is the setting, theboundary.
And here's the other thing, andI needed to learn this with my
(31:52):
own daughter it is not my job totell my kids how they're
supposed to feel.
It is not my job to managetheir emotions.
And here's the thing I had alot of emotional pain as a child
.
I lost my dad at age eight in avery sudden car accident, and
this was in the 60s.
(32:13):
There was no grief, and so Idid not know this until I
started my own family recoveryjourney with a therapist that
you know.
I hadn't dealt with the griefof my dad.
But I also thought and this wasall unconsciously, but I had
emotional pain as a child and Ithought my job as a mom is I was
(32:33):
gonna make sure my two kids didnot have any emotional pain.
And so what did that do thatput me in that rescue mode all
the time.
You know and this was also inthe 90s when you know, they were
closing down playgroundsbecause they might fall and
break a leg, and you know youcouldn't have all of that stuff
and so.
so then I was in that and I'dbeen doing pediatric nursing.
(32:54):
But so that was a big aha forme and it really freed me up
that I couldn't, I could let mydaughter know, I loved her, she
knew that I loved her, you know,but it wasn't my job to make
her love me.
I could show up and show that,show my love in the way that I
wanted to do, and doing that wasdoing the program and doing the
(33:17):
hard work, and that's how thelove came through.
And our daughter to this daywill say if my parents hadn't
done their work she'd be dead.
I mean, she will say that whenwe share our family's story
together, and so that was theloving thing to do.
And the other thing that comesalong with love is the whole
concept of detaching with love.
(33:37):
You know, and that's thrown outa lot in Al-Anon and 12-step
rooms and I would hear that andI would be like what Lisa kind
of touched on it.
You know, as a mom I'm like howdo you?
I can't detach from my daughter, right, my mother, how do you
detach with love?
And I love the concept, I lovehow we teach it in the bomb that
families, you do your work andthen you get to detach with love
(34:02):
, not from your loved one, butyou detach with love from the
outcomes and you leave them upto your higher power.
And there's something reallyfreeing in that because
ultimately you don't know whatthe outcome is gonna be, but I
can tell you one thing and Iknow I share this a lot with
family members you know I'vebeen doing this since 2015.
If I didn't see success, Iwould not still be doing this,
(34:25):
not in this line of work and notdealing with the craziness that
can come when you're firststart working with the family,
but being able to see thetransformation take place and
that it is possible and familiescan get back to that place of
having hope, to where they havethat emotional resiliency that
they need.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Jill, I think that's a wonderful example and a great
piece where people can actuallyresonate with what you said.
You gave the example andexplained.
You put it into words and, lisa, I'd love you to piggyback off
of it, to detach with love.
Can you piggyback off of jailfor us?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
So I actually cannot stand that phrase either,
because I feel like so what Itell my families is this that
addiction thrives in isolation,and so what that means is is
that a big part of the antidoteis connection.
However, you can be connectedwith someone without putting
(35:29):
yourself at risk, and so that isreally kind of how I start the
process of beginning to explainto someone what it means to be
connected, what it means to bein healthy proximity.
If I were interacting withsomeone, whether family member
(35:52):
or not, whether addiction isinvolved or not, who is often
volatile and hostile, then I'mnot gonna allow myself to be in
super close proximity to thatperson.
But that doesn't mean that Ican't still interact with them.
I can interact with them at asafe distance, right, and so
detachment to me is likeamputation, like I'm done, I'm
(36:15):
wiping my hands and we're movingon right.
That capital I intervention.
If you don't do what I want,then I'm not ever gonna talk to
you again.
Well, first of all, that doesn'tactually work and, secondly,
it's not healthy for anybody,because very few family members
are actually able to hold thatboundary.
First of all, that's not aboundary, it's a threat, and so
(36:37):
when families start to realizethat they don't have to do that,
that tough love isn't the onlyway.
I can't tell you how manypeople come to me and they're
like well, everybody keepstelling me I just need to walk
away and I just need to do thisand I just need to do tough love
and they need to hit a bottom.
And I'm not saying that thatmight not be the right choice
(36:58):
for some families, because Ican't tell any family what the
right choice is.
But for the families that Iwork with, that's not what they
want.
They don't want to be separatedfrom their loved one.
They desperately want to beconnected.
And so if we can teach familymembers what healthy connection
looks like and how to attainthat, then they don't have to
(37:20):
detach.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
It's a great example, or they?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
don't have to amputate, right yeah, because
I'm a huge amputator and that'seasy at the time.
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Me too.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yes, great.
But, it's harmful.
It's great that we're unpackingthat detachment, because in
Buddhism too there's allsuffering comes from attachment,
which is just a translation.
But the other translation isclinging.
I love that concept of that anon-clinging and clinging.
I can love somebody withclinging, which means that my
(37:58):
happiness is dependent on theresult that I want.
I love this person and I'm onlygoing to be happy if this
person is this way.
That is a clinging love.
But if it's like a non-clinginglove, I can still want these
things and those things.
But whether they happen or not,it's not up to me.
If it does, that's great, butif it doesn't, it's not my fault
(38:19):
.
So it's really helpful to hearyou unpacking about detachment.
It's not like oh yeah, I don'tcare, Disconnect, disengage, but
it's more of like remaining inthe healthy boundary and then
operating from there.
So I love that.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Well, and the other thing if I could just say one
more thing about that is that inthe day and age that we live in
, with the number of people thatwe lose every day, every week,
every month, every year tooverdose, these family members
need to have the opportunity tobe able to put their head on the
(38:57):
pillow at night and know thatthey did everything that they
could and everything that wasimportant for them to do.
And for a lot of family members,completely walking away or
amputating doesn't allow themthat option.
Right, and so, recognizing thetemperature and the climate of
(39:22):
the recovery world and the worldof addiction right now, it's
very different than it was evenjust five years ago.
I mean 10 years ago, I mean wewouldn't have even thought we
would ever get to this place.
And so we can't stick with justtough love, because where that
might have worked 10, 15, 20years ago, when you could shoot
(39:44):
heroin for 20 years and thenchoose recovery, it doesn't work
today, because nobody survivesthat long in active addiction,
if they're using really anythingat this point, because even
meth and cocaine and even pothas fentanyl in it.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, we don't have the luxury to hit a rock bottom
like we're used to and part ofthe message that I'm hearing.
There's three recoveries goingon Active use, trying to find
out what their recovery is theloved one, the family member,
their recovery and then thefamily unit's recovery.
(40:27):
And it's so complex and it'schanging, and how do we meet
where they're at and where am Iat?
And trying to simplify, that iswhat we're talking about,
whether it's our self, love,what do I need for my sub?
Boundaries are for me first andforemost.
How do I have peace of mind,calmness of mind, with whatever
they do?
What am I going to do?
(40:49):
And because of this complexity,there's a lot of relapse or not
a linear recovery, measurementin this process.
How do you guys and we'realready hearing it, but how do
you guys help your clients, thefamily members, with the
(41:10):
resiliency and hope when it'snot there, when they are down
and out and they have that fearand their loved one just
overdosed or whatever it mightbe, how do you help them with
that resiliency and that hope?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
For me, the best thing I can do is model it,
model it for the family memberand have hope when they don't,
and then that's what I teachthem to do for their loved one.
When your loved one can'tbelieve in themselves, you
believe in them for them.
When they don't have hope forthemselves, you hope for them,
and so then that's what I do forthe family members.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, and I help them to stay focused in the solution
and not hang out in thatproblem.
Yes, be emotionally honest,share you feel hopeless like,
get it out.
So I'll affirm them for beingemotionally honest and then help
them.
You know, talk about, okay,what are some things you can do
today, in the next hour, thatmight help to bring your neuro
(42:12):
pathways back to that place ofpeace and calm and being present
and just right now and thenoffering the support and the
other beautiful thing about thebomb program you know it's a one
year online platform and, yes,we have live calls.
We have a whole recordeddatabase.
So you know I might encouragethem.
(42:35):
You know there might be a call,that interview that's come into
my mind and say you know what,why don't you listen to this
story, listen to where they wereand where they are now?
You know it's kind of like youknow an alcoholic, the things
they're going to drink well, goto a meeting.
So, for a family member, whatcan a family member do?
Like, do something that's goingto help keep them in that place
(42:58):
of hope and focused on thesolution and not the problem.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, that the resilience and hope is is
central to the theme of nationalrecovery month, because when we
don't have it, we need to getit from somewhere.
Tell us more about the bombprogram and all the aspects and
the things that that bombrecovery offer.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Do you want to go?
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (43:24):
I mean, I'll say something, and then you say
something.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Okay, that sounds great so much has grown.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
So much that's what I want to say Like, and I get
really excited about it, becausebomb started as something that
was just for family members andbecause the founder, bev, was a
family member and she wasworking with family members, she
built this program for familymembers so she would have
(43:50):
something to work with herclients, using this to work with
her clients, and it has grownso much since then.
And I'll kind of go back to whatyou said about there being
three recoveries right, becausenow what the bomb has is it has
recovery for the love, for thefamily, which is still the
(44:11):
primary focus of the bomb.
There's a whole lot more there,right, but there's also aspects
and programs for the loved oneand we now have coaches who work
specifically with the addict.
And so if you have a familymember or a family who have a
bomb coach and are in the bomb,and then you have a loved one or
(44:32):
an addict who is in the bomband working with a coach, and
then those coaches arecollaborating along with other
professionals, it's like you'rebuilding a cocoon around this
person and the scaffolding justkeeps going out and out and out
and you're just building thishuge team of support for the
family member and for the lovedone, and everybody starts
(44:56):
speaking the same language.
So it really has become aprogram that's for the whole
family.
And so we have 12 principles,seven steps for the loved one or
the.
When I say loved one, what Imean is the addict, right?
That's what in the bomb program, that's who we, how we identify
that person, and then we havethe same thing for the family.
(45:18):
So the programs mirror eachother, which is new over the
last couple of years, and it hasreally made a huge difference
in so many families to have thatcontinuity.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Go ahead, Jill.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
So what I would say is it has been so exciting to
see the growth and everythingthat continues to get added.
And you know, I remember whatattracted me, not only to the
curriculum but knowing that it'sa one year program.
You know, we know, withsubstance use disorder, if
anybody can stay in treatmentfor a year or some type of
(45:58):
continuing care for a year, thechances of long term sobriety
increases significantly.
So the family.
Well, what does the familytypically get?
They might get a weekendprogram at a treatment center.
If they're lucky, they mightget monthly family sessions.
They might have someexperiential work tapped in
(46:19):
there at a treatment center.
But for the most part, as we allknow, the family typically
doesn't get exactly what theyneed.
And we know that family membersneuro pathways get hijacked,
just like the loved ones neuropathways get hijacked.
And so by having access to aprogram for a whole year, they
can come in, they can breathe,you know, and then they've got
(46:40):
this whole year and then Lisaand I, as coaches, we get to
walk them through the wealth ofinformation that's there.
One of the other things thatwas recently added, which I
think is just dynamite, you knowwe have a bomb principle seven,
which is the importance ofsetting healthy boundaries.
So it has its own principle.
We now offer a six week classon limits, leverage and
(47:03):
boundaries, and there's justsome really rich material there.
Lisa, you might have beeninvolved in the curriculum
writing.
I don't know I know you write alot of the curriculum but it's
very rich material.
And so you know and here's theother thing One of our bomb
principles is the power ofgetting support.
And so when you're working,when you're in the bomb program,
(47:26):
you're going to get support.
If you have a bomb coach,you're going to have that
support.
I know for me and my husband weneeded to have that outside
objective person and team ofpeople that we were able to go
to.
And so as a bomb coach, that'sthe other gift.
You know, not only there'sprobably a therapist involved
(47:47):
and there's a coach involved andbeing able to.
You know, I'll tell my familymembers only come in alongside
you on this journey because theyneed it.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, kind of following up on what Luke has
mentioned earlier about recoverybeing a process, but also it's
not a linear path.
You know that is there tools.
You know like if there is likea really good day count, you
know it's a good measurement ofsuccess, so to speak.
But also that's not the soleindicator of how successful the
recovery process is.
And in 12-stack communitiespeople talk about progress, not
(48:22):
perfection, you know so.
Other ways, so like if there'slike a family member who's doing
the work but then the day countis not happening, other ways to
evaluate the progress they'vemade.
You kind of like doself-motivate that we're on the
path and then keep movingforward.
I wanted to ask about that too.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
So, within the program for families, there are
three primary paths.
You have the 12 principles, andthat's where you're going to
find the bulk of the educationaround addiction, alcoholism,
substance use, recoveryresources and so on.
(49:03):
And then there are there's theseven steps program, and the
seven steps program really helpsthe family to internalize their
own transformation.
That's also where these familymembers really learn this new
way of communicating.
And then, with the addition ofthe new course, the six-week
course, limits, leverage andboundaries.
(49:24):
That takes one of the mostchallenging topics for families
and really dives deep into it.
Right, and so what we teach ourfamilies is as long as you are
engaged in some part of thisprocess, you are doing what you
need to do for you.
There is no guarantee that thatmeans that your loved one is
(49:47):
going to get clean and sober orstay clean and sober, because we
can't guarantee that.
But what we can guarantee isthat if you engage in this
program and you do one thing aday or one thing a week or
whatever is the pace for you, ifyou are continuing to do one or
(50:11):
two things regularly on yourown program, then you are still
in the process, and we alsoteach our families about the
stages of change, and so we helpour families to learn how to
identify where they are in theirstages of change because, like
Jill said, their neuro pathwaysneed to be healed.
(50:32):
They're hijacked, they need toform new habits.
There are so many things thatthe families need to change and
if they can look at themselvesthrough the eyes of being in a
change process like we have.
Principle two is all about howchange happens in stages, and we
spend time there, not justteaching family members what it
(50:53):
looks like for their loved oneschange process to happen in
stages, but also helping themview themselves through that
same model when are you in yourstages of change?
And I find that that really,when family members can really
grasp the stages of change andbegin to view themselves through
(51:15):
that lens, that is a tool forthem to be able to identify
where they're making progress,and it also allows them to say,
okay, well, I'm really making alot of progress and not enabling
, but I'm still having a hardtime over here in acceptance,
because you can be in differentstages in different areas all at
(51:37):
the same time.
So it allows them to feelsuccessful in the areas where
they're really doing well, andwe really try to focus on that
part.
We focus on where we're doingwell and we really like build on
the strengths.
And as people act on theirstrengths and they focus on
(51:58):
those things in those areas thatthey're doing well, the other
things improve kind ofautomatically.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yeah, and for the listeners, they've only
scratched the surface of all thestuff that the bomb provides,
so it's so vast, with the onlinecommunity support, the
individualized and family bombcoaching and all the skills and
principles and concepts that youguys provide.
(52:24):
Thank you for joining us today.
I wish we had I try to keep itclose to an hour so thank you so
much.
Is there anything you guys,during this national recovery
month, that you'd like to sharebefore we close it up?
Speaker 4 (52:42):
Where there's breath, there's hope.
Never give up.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
And the power of being a loving mirror.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
I got some chills from that, I'm not kidding.
Thank you, guys, for joining ustoday.
And as we wrap up this episode,we want to emphasize a
fundamental aspect of the bombbe a loving mirror recovery
approach.
It recognizes that recoveryisn't just about helping your
loved one struggling withaddiction.
It's about your own personalrecovery journey as well.
(53:08):
Addiction impacts and extendsfar beyond the individual
struggling with it, affectingfamilies, friends and
communities.
Within this Adversity lies inopportunity for transformation
and growth.
Our heartfelt appreciation goesto you, jill and Lisa, for
their unwavering dedication toempowering families through the
(53:29):
bomb approach, renowned forfostering open communication and
building resilience.
Their insights and experiencesreally have illuminated a path
toward transformation andhealing.
So, in the spirit of nationalrecovery month, let us stand
together as a beacon of hope andempowerment, reach out to those
in need, offer your support andnever underestimate the impact
(53:51):
you can make.
Addiction recovery is acollective journey and by
nurturing compassion, educatingourselves and seeking the
necessary tools, we contributeto a more compassionate world.
So thank you for joining us andlaunching this profound
exploration, and stay tuned.
And this was our third of fourpart series.
(54:12):
We talked about the RecoveryAwareness Foundation.
We had a family member lastweek, a suicide law survivor
talk about his suicide journeyand helping others.
Today we have Jill and Lisa andnext week we'll be talking
about what is treatment healthytreatment, long-term treatment,
(54:33):
among a whole lot of otherthings.
If you found this beneficial inany way, please share with
others, as collectively we canfind a solution to all things
health and wellness.
Thank you all for joining us.
My name is Luke.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Thank you, lisa and Jill, thanks for joining us, and
this is Zaw.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
We'll see you guys next time.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (54:51):
Thanks guys, thanks guys.
Welcome to a therapist of Buddhist sinew as
we continue our compellingfour-part series dedicated to
National Recovery Month.
Throughout this series, westand shoulder to shoulder with
millions amplifying the voicesadvocating for addiction and
mental health awareness.
But here's a startling fact.
You were someone you know ismost likely grappling with the
consequences of drug addiction.
(00:22):
Right now, in the US alone,over 21 million battle substance
use disorders, and the rippleeffect touches countless more
Families, friends, communities.
It's an issue that knows nobounds, transcending age, race
and socioeconomic status.
In today's episode, we divedeep into the heart of family
(00:44):
support and addiction recovery,because the truth is, addiction
affects not just the individualstruggling with it, but everyone
around them.
The pain and challenges facedby families are immense, and yet
they often go unnoticed.
So if you're listening to thisright now, it's because you
understand the gravity of thesituation.
(01:05):
It's because you, like us,believe in the power of
compassion, education andsupport to transform lives.
Today we are joined by guestJill, previously a McDonald's
distinguished BALM familyrecovery coaches, who are here
to share invaluable insightsinto how families can find their
strength and play a pivotalrole in the recovery journey.
(01:26):
Our aim is simple To provideyou with the knowledge and
inspiration you might need totake that crucial step towards
healing, whether for yourself, afamily member or a friend,
because within the midst ofadversity, it's support and help
that light the way to recovery.
So stay with us.
Together we'll explore the pathto empowerment and healing.
(01:49):
Jill and Lisa, and always mydistinguished co-host, is all
welcome everyone.
So thank you all for joining ustoday, and let's kick it off
with you.
Know what do you think offamily recovery?
And it's often frequentlyovershadowed or overlooked when
(02:11):
addressing the addiction issues.
Why don't we start there?
What comes to mind when we seeit on our end?
But tell us more about that.
Why does that happen so much?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Well, I'll jump in.
It's an honor to be here andyou know I do what I do
professionally, but I also dowhat I do because I'm a family
member that was impacted by thisdisease in a big way, and
that's my daughter, who, I amhappy to say, has 13 and a half
years of uninterrupted sobrietyAwesome, so, but I think the
(02:47):
family misses it so much.
There's a couple of thingsDenial Okay, I was majorly in
denial.
I was a high school nurse.
I knew everything about drugsand alcohol.
I was trained by the localpolice to do impairment
assessments.
If an administrator thought astudent was under the influence
and we tell our daughter whenshe entered adolescence, if you,
(03:09):
when she started going toparties, if you come home high
or drunk, I'm going to knowbecause I'm going to do an
impairment assessment.
She later told me, mom, everysingle time you told me that I
was so high, I wasn't lookingfor it.
I wasn't looking for opiates.
I thought you know typical highschool weed and alcohol.
And she was a full blown heroinaddict and I missed it.
(03:31):
I thought eating disorderbecause she was losing weight.
So I think the denial part, thefear that's underneath of it
all, can be paralyzing and justand not knowing what to do with
all of the emotions, and thenfamily members thinking that
they're in it alone, when ofcourse we know none of that is
true.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, so that personal piece.
What about you, lisa?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
My experience is on the opposite side.
So I am a person in long termrecovery myself, and when I look
back at what early recovery waslike for me, what I see in my
family was that I had twoparents who loved me very, very
much, who felt very muchresponsible for how I turned out
(04:20):
Right, and so if I didn't turnout the way I was supposed to
turn out, then that must bethere fault.
So in my family what it lookedlike was that my parents were
not able to face A that I was adrug addict and I also I mean,
(04:41):
in the end I weighed 85 pounds,so it wasn't as if it was a
secret Right, Like there wasclearly something going on.
Get past their own feelings offailure and that's true to this
day Like my parents still try totake responsibility for my
addiction and the road that Iwalked and how they should have
(05:03):
done this differently and theyshould have done that
differently.
And so I think that oftentimessubstance use disorder takes
hold in families where there isalready unhealth Not always, but
a lot Right, so there's alreadyunhealth in my family and then
(05:24):
enter drugs and alcohol, whichfor me was a solution to the
problem, but what it did was itexacerbated the problem in my
family and it requires I meanJill talked about it denial
right.
It requires you to take thefocus off of that person who is
(05:44):
actively using or strugglingwith substance use and put it on
yourself and turn thatmagnifying glass or that
microscope back on yourself, andso I think that's really hard
for anybody.
But I also think there's thisidea of well, if I just want to
help my loved one, I just wantthem to stop using.
I just want to help my lovedone, and there's a disconnect
(06:07):
between the understanding thatwe have as professionals that if
you help yourself you're betterprepared to help your loved one
and what that family is goingthrough in that moment.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, it's amazing how addiction makes the
unhealthy unhealthier.
Right, it really cultivatesthat.
We talk about cultivatingrecovery, and you both give
examples of the barriers thatprevent families, whether it's
the denial, the lack ofawareness or just patterns that
(06:39):
we have as family members.
Zal, can you take us back towhen you were younger and your
family dynamic?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, family is a very powerful thing, which I
think is great as children, butalso quite hard to solve,
because as a child I saw theworld through my parents' eyes
and it's also especially in Asia.
Who do I compare it to?
How would I know?
So it's really it's a verynuclear, tight-knit family.
(07:10):
So even if there is somedysfunctional going on, it's a
very integrative andall-inclusive kind of approach
that you guys do, which is, theysay, addiction is a family
disease, not just one individual.
So I relate to that a lot.
My parents don't have access toany of these services You're
right about me getting, but theydid go through a lot and there
(07:34):
still is some kind of adisconnect.
But better is a way of helpingthem too.
So this is a really powerfulapproach that you two are doing.
That's how I relate to it.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And you guys shared some of the flame or the
compassion that got you guysinto the recovery coaching field
.
Tell us more about thedevelopment of the bomb version
of recovery coaching, if youwill.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
We've been around longer, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
All right, I didn't want to be the first one always
starting Okay.
So BOMBALM stands for be aloving mirror and what?
And so Lisa and I are bothcertified in this amazing
curriculum and that is whatattracted me to the program to
want to become, to leave nursingand become a certified BOMB
(08:28):
family recovery coach becausethere is curriculum.
So I got certified in it andthen my families that I work
with have curriculum that I'mgoing to help walk them through
and there's programs and toolsand all sorts of things and
basically what we teach familymembers is how to mirror back
(08:50):
the love and the peace that theywish to see in their loved one.
And if you think about that,when you're dealing with
substance use disorder, whenyou're dealing with mental
health issues, there's not a lotof love and peace going around.
You know it's either fear,anger, shame, resentment.
You know you name the emotion.
The other big component of BOMBis that we're not only teaching
(09:13):
them how to do this for theirloved ones, but also how to be
that loving mirror to themselves.
And I know for me I had a lotof guilt and a lot of shame and
I was grateful at the time Ididn't have BOMBALM but I had
ALANON.
I was so grateful to hear thatI didn't cause it.
I couldn't cure it, I couldn'tcontrol it.
That relieved me.
(09:33):
But I was also taught you couldcontribute, and so in the BOMB
program we're teaching familieshow to contribute to their loved
ones recovery, and the way todo that is they need to change.
There needs to be atransformation that takes place
within them, and it's amazing towatch it happen.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Lisa, can you give us a little bit I mean as a coach
and Jill, you mentionedcurriculum.
What's an example?
One thing that I love about theBOMB program and working with
BOMB coaches like Lisa and Jillin conjunction with family or
recovering addicts andalcoholics, is that tangible
(10:14):
tools that people that you workwith can do.
Lisa, can you give us anexample of a key principle or a
core concept that you guys do asBOMB recovery coaches for your
clients?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Sure.
So you know, the BOMB programis a robust program, but it
really comes down to a couple ofthings.
So it really is about takingresponsibility for me and
allowing other people, givingother people the dignity to take
responsibility for them, andthat's really hard for family
(10:52):
members and so, as I work with afamily and as they move through
the BOMB program, there is astructure to it.
There's a structure, there's anorder, there is a simplicity
within that order and thatstructure, and it is built on
some very key principles of lovefirst right.
(11:21):
So everything comes out of love.
Love is the solution, love isthe answer and not love like I'm
gonna approve of everythingthat you do and I'm not gonna
say anything to hurt yourfeelings, Not politeness, not
enabling, but love that says Ilove you enough to stand firm
(11:41):
right here in this place andlove you regardless of what you
go through and while you gothrough it.
However, I'm not gonnaparticipate in that right, which
is a tension of acceptance ofthe reality of the situation,
(12:03):
without approving necessarily ofyour loved one's behavior, and
finding the tension in betweenthere where you can sit and be
okay to love that person wherethey are, and I think the other
thing that is paramount iscommunication, and that's one of
the things that I thinkattracts a lot of families in
(12:25):
the beginning is everybody inwhat do I say?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
What do I say?
What do I do?
Tell me what to say.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
We have so much, we just need to learn to
communicate right, and they'renot wrong.
They do need to learn tocommunicate differently, and so,
within the Balm program, wehave a structured course called
the seven steps course thatteaches people, step by step, a
method of communicating withtheir loved one that will allow
(12:52):
the message of I love you and Iwant what's best for you.
I wanna help you to comethrough, because it eliminates
the judgment, the shame, theexpectations, the manipulation,
and it becomes like this, reallypure form of communication,
just like a mirror, right,because a mirror doesn't judge,
(13:14):
it just reflects.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, I really liked the abbreviation of be a loving
mirror.
Everything's all included inthere about love, but also I
don't know if it's like a madeup term or if it's the actual
term of like the mirror neuronsthat we have that we are always
mirroring what we see, so it isa powerful tool too.
Like in our Buddhist traditionthere's a loving kindness
(13:41):
practice where when you areradiating loving kindness, other
people, whether they know it ornot, they pick it up, you know.
So it's better to originatewithin you instead of like
copying the anger that the otherperson is feeling.
So I really love that approachof loving mirror, but also, at
the same time, that concept ofI'm not responsible for somebody
(14:03):
else's happiness, you know, butin the curriculum is there like
a specific way because in afamily that's a really hard pill
to swallow that if my son isunhappy it's because of me.
You know, and I need to dosomething about it that that
might be a challenge.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, in the curriculum, in the seven steps.
Specifically, the third step isbeing in touch with your own
emotional landscape.
You know, and what I find, andI'm sure you guys as therapists
you know, most people don't knowhow to be in touch with their
emotions to begin with, and sowe're really, you know, we help
to give them tools as a coachthat's my role too to help them
(14:44):
listen, you know, and reflectback to the family member.
What I'm hearing like it soundslike I'm hearing a lot of fear,
right, it sounds like I'mhearing, you know, a lot of
anger right now coming up andgetting them to talk about it
and verbalize it.
Because here's the thing, andI'll just talk from my own
experience I was, I thought, asa mom, I needed to be the
(15:05):
cheerleader, I needed to be up,I needed to be.
That's also my personality.
But what I wasn't doing was Iwasn't dealing with my own
emotions.
You know, and I learned thatyou know, if I don't deal with
the emotions and I share withfamily members, if you're not
dealing with these emotions,they're gonna come outside ways.
And so then, when you're now inthis place and we do it, we
(15:27):
spend a lot of time teachingabout the art of getting quiet,
the art of meditating, the artof breathing.
That's the very first step.
And it's amazing because mostfamilies, you know when I meet
with them and we'll start offwith some 4, 4, 8 breathing, you
know, breathe in for 4, holdfor 4, exhale for 8, and I just
(15:49):
do four rounds of that and Ijust see them on the Zoom screen
like the whole.
You can feel it, you can feelit yeah.
Yeah, and so then when they'rein that place of peace and calm,
their loved one hopefully willhave a better chance of hearing
them and then they're not asvulnerable for their loved one
(16:11):
to start manipulating theiremotions.
And that's key, because mydaughter was really good at
doing that.
She knew how to get me angryand she knew what.
Then how I would come back andI would feel like the bad guy.
You know that whole.
You know Cartman triangle whereyou've got the victim and the
rescuer and the persecutor andshe would be the victim and
(16:32):
really good at putting me in thepersecutor role if I wasn't
rescuing her.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So yeah, I call it emotional awareness, and
eventually the language turnsinto emotional recovery, right.
Yes and that separates us as aspecies, where we're not a
family of deer, where we areeither in love, fear, fight or
flight.
We can be in more emotions thanjust that.
That fine-skilled tune skillthat addicts have of emotional
(17:00):
manipulation, yeah, yeah, verycool.
Yeah.
That balance between providingsupport and setting healthy
boundaries during that recoveryprocess can seem so foreign and
fearful.
Like what do I say to do that?
What?
Just tell me what to say?
As opposed to the skills thatyou guys are talking about, Are
(17:20):
there any other commonmisconceptions or myths about
family members role in therecovery process that you guys
often come across, where peoplefeel that they should too or
need to do that and you guyshelp them identify?
Well, maybe that's not yourrole as a loved one or as a
family member.
What do you think, Lisa?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
I think when I come across a lot, because I tend to
work with a lot of parents whoseloved one is their child that's
just the demographic of peoplethat I have as my clientele
right now I hear a lot well, I'mjust I mean, I'm a mom, I'm
never gonna stop worrying, orisn't that just being?
(17:59):
Isn't that my job?
It's my job as a mom, right?
Or I think the other thing issometimes, when you're teaching
a family to figure out who ownsa problem, so that they can see
what their true role is,sometimes, when you recognize
(18:21):
that somebody else owns aproblem, you also, at the same
time, recognize that if theymake a decision, even though
it's their decision to make, andthose consequences are gonna
primarily affect them and Idon't really get to decide about
it, that doesn't mean it's notgonna affect me, and so a lot of
families that I interact withare really afraid of the impact
(18:46):
of their loved ones.
I'll say failure, but it reallynot that that means that
there's a complete failure, butif a loved one makes a mistake
or if they Struggles yeah.
Right, exactly.
And then I, as a mom, am goingto feel emotionally distraught
because I have to decide whetheror not I'm going to go bail my
(19:07):
kid out of jail.
I don't want to feel that.
So instead I'm going to nag andI'm going to try to control so
that I don't ever have to get tothat point of making that
decision.
And I think when families,really when family members can
recognize that fear point that'swhen I have seen like
(19:28):
exponential growth, because thenthey're owning their own fear
they're recognizing that thisfear is actually my problem, but
I'm putting it on my loved oneby trying to control them so
that I don't have to make thathard decision.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, and I think you said it, that that fear leads
to a behavior and action ofwanting to control, to prevent.
So when they have thatemotional awareness and that
fear, how do you help them withthat?
Oh, holy jeez, I'm doing itagain.
I've got this fear.
I want to proactively preventthat from happening.
What do I do?
What do you tell them when thathappens?
(20:03):
Because it happens all the time.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
That's where boundaries come into play.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Because the boundary is there to keep me safe.
So I don't need the fear tokeep me safe.
I don't need the control tokeep me safe.
I don't need the manipulationor the enabling to keep me safe
or the anger, because I know howto set boundaries that are
healthy, that will keep me safe.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So let's talk about that word for just a moment.
The word boundary I thinkpeople struggle.
We did a whole episode onforgiveness and what it is and
what it isn't.
I think people struggle withthat.
I think the same thing canhappen with that word boundaries
.
What do you guys mean byholding healthy boundaries, Jill
(20:49):
?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, and can I real fastest mention the fear part
too?
Because I love what Lisa said asfar as boundaries.
But let's say, the familymember isn't even there yet.
They don't even know how to setthe boundaries, and I know this
from my own experience.
Fear is typically going in thefuture.
(21:10):
And so in the bomb, we alsoteach a lot of really good
methods of how to bring yourselfback to the present moment,
because in the present momentusually everything's okay.
The loved one has a no deed,the loved one isn't in jail,
they are in jail while they'rein jail.
And just so the bring them backto the present moment, and
(21:31):
sometimes it can be as simple asfocusing on the task at hand.
You know, I'm driving my carright now, I have my hands on
the steering wheel and I amgetting ready to turn on the
turn signal.
And just so that you'restopping that fear loop and
you're stopping that going intothe future, the future in
catastrophizing.
And I was really big at doingthat.
(21:52):
And then I even realized onetime I was future rising.
I even said to my husband isthat a word?
Because I was future rising myemotions.
I was even telling myself whatI was going to be feeling in my
emotional state like in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
It's insanity, it's crazy making so if we were that
good at predicting the future,then we'd be rich.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, that's exactly right, we would, and most of the
things that happen, that wethink are going to happen, don't
happen.
They really don't.
So for boundaries, you know,the crucial part and Lisa
already touched on this is thatthe family knowing the boundary
is for them.
You're not setting a boundaryto change your loved ones
behavior.
(22:35):
You're setting a boundary tokeep yourself safe, whether that
means emotionally safe,physically safe, financially
safe, and so you set thatboundary.
And then the other part of thatis leverage.
And a lot of times I too workprimarily with families that
(22:55):
have adult children and there'susually a lot of leverage there.
You know the leverage might be.
You know well, if you know youwant the car, then you know I'm
only going to support that.
If you're seeing Luke once aweek.
I've recommended that asleverage with some of the
(23:17):
families that I work with.
Or I'm only, you know, going toyour only.
We're only going to help youwith your car if you're
following the guidance of theprofessionals.
And here's the boundary that myhusband and I used, and I
encourage family members to useit all the time, because it's
really pretty simple If yourloved one is working with a
professional and you as a familyare trusting the professional
(23:39):
that they're working with.
Your boundary is we are goingto support recovery and what the
professionals recommend Period.
So if they're pushing them, ifa loved one's pushing that
family member, I really don'twant to be here.
And you know, are I theretelling me I need to do this and
you say you know well what'syour therapist saying and
(24:02):
they're like, well, they think Ineed to go to you know IOP,
after I get out of here.
And then if the family can juststay firm in that, that's what
we're supporting too.
We love you.
If you want to go figure it outon your own, you are more than
welcome to.
And that's the other thing toremember is that word choice.
The loved one has a choice, andso does the family, and that
(24:24):
can bring a lot of empowermentback to the family dynamics and
the dignity that the familyneeds as well.
Instead of being the doormat Iused to always say I feel like a
doormat, I feel likeeverybody's always walking all
over me.
Well, guess what they were?
Because I was allowing them to,I was giving power over me.
And here's the biggest thing Donot, do not family set a
(24:47):
boundary unless you are 100%sure you can keep it.
If you know that you can don'tset it, let's talk about some
other boundary, maybe shorterbaby steps.
But because, as you guys know,you set a boundary and break it,
you take five big stepsbackwards.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
It's an empty threat.
And then the attic brain goesoh, I can manipulate you, You're
not.
I can do what I want, becauseyou're just you're all talk.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
I'm not sure if how this is entirely related to
boundary, but I did want to askyou about you know you mentioned
about the needs you know like.
From my experience and alsofrom what I've seen, is that a
big part of addiction or causefor the addiction is that there
is an unmet needs that is to bemet and it can be met through
(25:39):
unhealthy means and then it'snot sustainable.
So is there also a processwhere the coaches help either
the the attic him or herself orthe family, identifying where
their needs are and then gettingthose needs met, not being
dependent on a person but justlike through healthy means, and
then like staying within thatboundary that I need to have my
(26:02):
needs met but not through theother person's happiness?
Speaker 4 (26:07):
So we teach our families an enormous amount of
self care.
And so self care from all fourperspectives, right physical,
emotional, mental and spiritualself care.
And that actually is reallyhard for a lot of families as
well to actually take the timeto care for themselves in a
(26:29):
healthy way.
Not, you know, self caredoesn't mean that I'm going to
sit up all night and watchNetflix because that's how I
feel better, because it's anescape.
That's actually not self care,right.
But you know, when we firststart to work with families, we
actually have several differentassessments that really do kind
(26:51):
of put a finger on where is myself care right now, where do I
need to have some improvement inmy self care and what would
that look like?
And through the coachingprocess, once families become
aware of what the options arefor self care and the need for
self care, that's where a lot ofthe coaching kicks in, because
(27:11):
sometimes it can be really hardfor people who aren't acquainted
with self care to figure outwhat's gonna work for them.
And that's where the coachingrelationship can really kick in
to high gear, because you'retaking what you learn in the
bomb on the bomb platformthrough the online curriculum
(27:35):
and you're bringing it into yourspecific situation and specific
to needs.
We actually have a chart that Iactually use with families and
with people in early recoveryand the chart is actually called
what Are my Needs and it takesyou through, like these seven or
eight key areas of your life,like spirituality, physical
(27:56):
health, physical activity, diet,sleep I can't remember exactly
what they all are and it asksthe individual to kind of think
through what are my needs ineach one of these areas and, on
a daily or weekly basis, what amI doing to meet those needs?
And that really helps people toself identify, which, when I was
(28:16):
talking in the beginning aboutthis idea of being responsible
for yourself and personalresponsibility, we don't
actually ever say to people yougotta work on that personal
responsibility.
It just happens as a result ofself awareness.
They become aware and they takeresponsibility through the
(28:37):
process of walking throughthings like the what Are my
Needs chart.
Or we have another tool that wecall who's Businesses.
It really does a great job ofidentifying is this my business,
is this my loved one's businessor is this God's business?
And those tools bring aboutself awareness that those family
members can then act on.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, one way I break that down for my clients is
this right, is this wrong, isthis healthy?
And it's just being able toidentify similar technique of
okay, what's my business, whatare my wants, what are my needs?
What is healthy?
What do I want to be healthy,because in this addiction toxic
(29:21):
cycle, it's the addiction wantsto say sick and the addiction
wants to kill them, and anythingit can do to manipulate the
addict themselves and the lovedones and family members to stay
sick and continue to use it'sgoing to do so.
It sounds like you guys aregiven a bunch of wonderful
techniques to go okay, do Isupport their recovery?
(29:42):
Do I support their toxicity andtheir addiction?
How do I support myself?
You know this is great.
So I'm hearing a lot ofBuddhist principles in here.
Are you?
What's jumping out at you?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, I mean, I feel like
there's so many spiritualprinciples that are paradoxical.
You know like that's also whatI'm hearing too that family love
is actually maintained andsustained through keeping things
separate, you know, or stayingwithin the boundary, although a
family is like part of a unit.
(30:14):
But it's kind of paradoxical.
You know, if I truly love mybecause that's what I have
noticed in my own family thatit's very unhealthy and
dysfunctional where people arereally dependent on each other
emotionally.
So that's what I'm hearing aswell.
But in terms of communicationtoo, I do wanna ask about that.
(30:37):
That, since the program's namelove being part of it is that a
big part of addiction or a bigpart of problems, dysfunctional
emotional problem comes from aplace of that I am not loved or
I will not be loved, or if I amfound out as exactly as I am, I
won't be loved, or kind ofmisunderstanding that I'm not
being loved, or I'm not beingrecognized, my parents don't
(30:58):
care about me, you know thingslike that.
There's a lot of likeassumptions or miscommunication
that needed to be dispelled, youknow.
So I wanted to ask about thattoo, in the families that you
help, that, yes, you are loved.
You know, no matter what, byyou know, if you have a concept
of your higher power or God, youknow your needs will be met.
(31:19):
Is there a part of the trainingand the education to the family
member or the person withaddiction as well, tools that
can help kind of retrain that?
Speaker 3 (31:31):
So for the family side, because I hear all the
time well, I don't want them tothink I don't love them.
You know, if I'm setting thisboundary, they're gonna think I
don't love them and I, you know,it's teaching them that the
love is the setting, theboundary.
And here's the other thing, andI needed to learn this with my
(31:52):
own daughter it is not my job totell my kids how they're
supposed to feel.
It is not my job to managetheir emotions.
And here's the thing I had alot of emotional pain as a child
.
I lost my dad at age eight in avery sudden car accident, and
this was in the 60s.
(32:13):
There was no grief, and so Idid not know this until I
started my own family recoveryjourney with a therapist that
you know.
I hadn't dealt with the griefof my dad.
But I also thought and this wasall unconsciously, but I had
emotional pain as a child and Ithought my job as a mom is I was
(32:33):
gonna make sure my two kids didnot have any emotional pain.
And so what did that do thatput me in that rescue mode all
the time.
You know and this was also inthe 90s when you know, they were
closing down playgroundsbecause they might fall and
break a leg, and you know youcouldn't have all of that stuff
and so.
so then I was in that and I'dbeen doing pediatric nursing.
(32:54):
But so that was a big aha forme and it really freed me up
that I couldn't, I could let mydaughter know, I loved her, she
knew that I loved her, you know,but it wasn't my job to make
her love me.
I could show up and show that,show my love in the way that I
wanted to do, and doing that wasdoing the program and doing the
(33:17):
hard work, and that's how thelove came through.
And our daughter to this daywill say if my parents hadn't
done their work she'd be dead.
I mean, she will say that whenwe share our family's story
together, and so that was theloving thing to do.
And the other thing that comesalong with love is the whole
concept of detaching with love.
(33:37):
You know, and that's thrown outa lot in Al-Anon and 12-step
rooms and I would hear that andI would be like what Lisa kind
of touched on it.
You know, as a mom I'm like howdo you?
I can't detach from my daughter, right, my mother, how do you
detach with love?
And I love the concept, I lovehow we teach it in the bomb that
families, you do your work andthen you get to detach with love
(34:02):
, not from your loved one, butyou detach with love from the
outcomes and you leave them upto your higher power.
And there's something reallyfreeing in that because
ultimately you don't know whatthe outcome is gonna be, but I
can tell you one thing and Iknow I share this a lot with
family members you know I'vebeen doing this since 2015.
If I didn't see success, Iwould not still be doing this,
(34:25):
not in this line of work and notdealing with the craziness that
can come when you're firststart working with the family,
but being able to see thetransformation take place and
that it is possible and familiescan get back to that place of
having hope, to where they havethat emotional resiliency that
they need.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Jill, I think that's a wonderful example and a great
piece where people can actuallyresonate with what you said.
You gave the example andexplained.
You put it into words and, lisa, I'd love you to piggyback off
of it, to detach with love.
Can you piggyback off of jailfor us?
Speaker 4 (35:06):
So I actually cannot stand that phrase either,
because I feel like so what Itell my families is this that
addiction thrives in isolation,and so what that means is is
that a big part of the antidoteis connection.
However, you can be connectedwith someone without putting
(35:29):
yourself at risk, and so that isreally kind of how I start the
process of beginning to explainto someone what it means to be
connected, what it means to bein healthy proximity.
If I were interacting withsomeone, whether family member
(35:52):
or not, whether addiction isinvolved or not, who is often
volatile and hostile, then I'mnot gonna allow myself to be in
super close proximity to thatperson.
But that doesn't mean that Ican't still interact with them.
I can interact with them at asafe distance, right, and so
detachment to me is likeamputation, like I'm done, I'm
(36:15):
wiping my hands and we're movingon right.
That capital I intervention.
If you don't do what I want,then I'm not ever gonna talk to
you again.
Well, first of all, that doesn'tactually work and, secondly,
it's not healthy for anybody,because very few family members
are actually able to hold thatboundary.
First of all, that's not aboundary, it's a threat, and so
(36:37):
when families start to realizethat they don't have to do that,
that tough love isn't the onlyway.
I can't tell you how manypeople come to me and they're
like well, everybody keepstelling me I just need to walk
away and I just need to do thisand I just need to do tough love
and they need to hit a bottom.
And I'm not saying that thatmight not be the right choice
(36:58):
for some families, because Ican't tell any family what the
right choice is.
But for the families that Iwork with, that's not what they
want.
They don't want to be separatedfrom their loved one.
They desperately want to beconnected.
And so if we can teach familymembers what healthy connection
looks like and how to attainthat, then they don't have to
(37:20):
detach.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
It's a great example, or they?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
don't have to amputate, right yeah, because
I'm a huge amputator and that'seasy at the time.
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Me too.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yes, great.
But, it's harmful.
It's great that we're unpackingthat detachment, because in
Buddhism too there's allsuffering comes from attachment,
which is just a translation.
But the other translation isclinging.
I love that concept of that anon-clinging and clinging.
I can love somebody withclinging, which means that my
(37:58):
happiness is dependent on theresult that I want.
I love this person and I'm onlygoing to be happy if this
person is this way.
That is a clinging love.
But if it's like a non-clinginglove, I can still want these
things and those things.
But whether they happen or not,it's not up to me.
If it does, that's great, butif it doesn't, it's not my fault
(38:19):
.
So it's really helpful to hearyou unpacking about detachment.
It's not like oh yeah, I don'tcare, Disconnect, disengage, but
it's more of like remaining inthe healthy boundary and then
operating from there.
So I love that.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
Well, and the other thing if I could just say one
more thing about that is that inthe day and age that we live in
, with the number of people thatwe lose every day, every week,
every month, every year tooverdose, these family members
need to have the opportunity tobe able to put their head on the
(38:57):
pillow at night and know thatthey did everything that they
could and everything that wasimportant for them to do.
And for a lot of family members,completely walking away or
amputating doesn't allow themthat option.
Right, and so, recognizing thetemperature and the climate of
(39:22):
the recovery world and the worldof addiction right now, it's
very different than it was evenjust five years ago.
I mean 10 years ago, I mean wewouldn't have even thought we
would ever get to this place.
And so we can't stick with justtough love, because where that
might have worked 10, 15, 20years ago, when you could shoot
(39:44):
heroin for 20 years and thenchoose recovery, it doesn't work
today, because nobody survivesthat long in active addiction,
if they're using really anythingat this point, because even
meth and cocaine and even pothas fentanyl in it.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, we don't have the luxury to hit a rock bottom
like we're used to and part ofthe message that I'm hearing.
There's three recoveries goingon Active use, trying to find
out what their recovery is theloved one, the family member,
their recovery and then thefamily unit's recovery.
(40:27):
And it's so complex and it'schanging, and how do we meet
where they're at and where am Iat?
And trying to simplify, that iswhat we're talking about,
whether it's our self, love,what do I need for my sub?
Boundaries are for me first andforemost.
How do I have peace of mind,calmness of mind, with whatever
they do?
What am I going to do?
(40:49):
And because of this complexity,there's a lot of relapse or not
a linear recovery, measurementin this process.
How do you guys and we'realready hearing it, but how do
you guys help your clients, thefamily members, with the
(41:10):
resiliency and hope when it'snot there, when they are down
and out and they have that fearand their loved one just
overdosed or whatever it mightbe, how do you help them with
that resiliency and that hope?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
For me, the best thing I can do is model it,
model it for the family memberand have hope when they don't,
and then that's what I teachthem to do for their loved one.
When your loved one can'tbelieve in themselves, you
believe in them for them.
When they don't have hope forthemselves, you hope for them,
and so then that's what I do forthe family members.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yeah, and I help them to stay focused in the solution
and not hang out in thatproblem.
Yes, be emotionally honest,share you feel hopeless like,
get it out.
So I'll affirm them for beingemotionally honest and then help
them.
You know, talk about, okay,what are some things you can do
today, in the next hour, thatmight help to bring your neuro
(42:12):
pathways back to that place ofpeace and calm and being present
and just right now and thenoffering the support and the
other beautiful thing about thebomb program you know it's a one
year online platform and, yes,we have live calls.
We have a whole recordeddatabase.
So you know I might encouragethem.
(42:35):
You know there might be a call,that interview that's come into
my mind and say you know what,why don't you listen to this
story, listen to where they wereand where they are now?
You know it's kind of like youknow an alcoholic, the things
they're going to drink well, goto a meeting.
So, for a family member, whatcan a family member do?
Like, do something that's goingto help keep them in that place
(42:58):
of hope and focused on thesolution and not the problem.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, that the resilience and hope is is
central to the theme of nationalrecovery month, because when we
don't have it, we need to getit from somewhere.
Tell us more about the bombprogram and all the aspects and
the things that that bombrecovery offer.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Do you want to go?
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (43:24):
I mean, I'll say something, and then you say
something.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Okay, that sounds great so much has grown.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
So much that's what I want to say Like, and I get
really excited about it, becausebomb started as something that
was just for family members andbecause the founder, bev, was a
family member and she wasworking with family members, she
built this program for familymembers so she would have
(43:50):
something to work with herclients, using this to work with
her clients, and it has grownso much since then.
And I'll kind of go back to whatyou said about there being
three recoveries right, becausenow what the bomb has is it has
recovery for the love, for thefamily, which is still the
(44:11):
primary focus of the bomb.
There's a whole lot more there,right, but there's also aspects
and programs for the loved oneand we now have coaches who work
specifically with the addict.
And so if you have a familymember or a family who have a
bomb coach and are in the bomb,and then you have a loved one or
(44:32):
an addict who is in the bomband working with a coach, and
then those coaches arecollaborating along with other
professionals, it's like you'rebuilding a cocoon around this
person and the scaffolding justkeeps going out and out and out
and you're just building thishuge team of support for the
family member and for the lovedone, and everybody starts
(44:56):
speaking the same language.
So it really has become aprogram that's for the whole
family.
And so we have 12 principles,seven steps for the loved one or
the.
When I say loved one, what Imean is the addict, right?
That's what in the bomb program, that's who we, how we identify
that person, and then we havethe same thing for the family.
(45:18):
So the programs mirror eachother, which is new over the
last couple of years, and it hasreally made a huge difference
in so many families to have thatcontinuity.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Go ahead, Jill.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
So what I would say is it has been so exciting to
see the growth and everythingthat continues to get added.
And you know, I remember whatattracted me, not only to the
curriculum but knowing that it'sa one year program.
You know, we know, withsubstance use disorder, if
anybody can stay in treatmentfor a year or some type of
(45:58):
continuing care for a year, thechances of long term sobriety
increases significantly.
So the family.
Well, what does the familytypically get?
They might get a weekendprogram at a treatment center.
If they're lucky, they mightget monthly family sessions.
They might have someexperiential work tapped in
(46:19):
there at a treatment center.
But for the most part, as we allknow, the family typically
doesn't get exactly what theyneed.
And we know that family membersneuro pathways get hijacked,
just like the loved ones neuropathways get hijacked.
And so by having access to aprogram for a whole year, they
can come in, they can breathe,you know, and then they've got
(46:40):
this whole year and then Lisaand I, as coaches, we get to
walk them through the wealth ofinformation that's there.
One of the other things thatwas recently added, which I
think is just dynamite, you knowwe have a bomb principle seven,
which is the importance ofsetting healthy boundaries.
So it has its own principle.
We now offer a six week classon limits, leverage and
(47:03):
boundaries, and there's justsome really rich material there.
Lisa, you might have beeninvolved in the curriculum
writing.
I don't know I know you write alot of the curriculum but it's
very rich material.
And so you know and here's theother thing One of our bomb
principles is the power ofgetting support.
And so when you're working,when you're in the bomb program,
(47:26):
you're going to get support.
If you have a bomb coach,you're going to have that
support.
I know for me and my husband weneeded to have that outside
objective person and team ofpeople that we were able to go
to.
And so as a bomb coach, that'sthe other gift.
You know, not only there'sprobably a therapist involved
(47:47):
and there's a coach involved andbeing able to.
You know, I'll tell my familymembers only come in alongside
you on this journey because theyneed it.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
Yeah, kind of following up on what Luke has
mentioned earlier about recoverybeing a process, but also it's
not a linear path.
You know that is there tools.
You know like if there is likea really good day count, you
know it's a good measurement ofsuccess, so to speak.
But also that's not the soleindicator of how successful the
recovery process is.
And in 12-stack communitiespeople talk about progress, not
(48:22):
perfection, you know so.
Other ways, so like if there'slike a family member who's doing
the work but then the day countis not happening, other ways to
evaluate the progress they'vemade.
You kind of like doself-motivate that we're on the
path and then keep movingforward.
I wanted to ask about that too.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
So, within the program for families, there are
three primary paths.
You have the 12 principles, andthat's where you're going to
find the bulk of the educationaround addiction, alcoholism,
substance use, recoveryresources and so on.
(49:03):
And then there are there's theseven steps program, and the
seven steps program really helpsthe family to internalize their
own transformation.
That's also where these familymembers really learn this new
way of communicating.
And then, with the addition ofthe new course, the six-week
course, limits, leverage andboundaries.
(49:24):
That takes one of the mostchallenging topics for families
and really dives deep into it.
Right, and so what we teach ourfamilies is as long as you are
engaged in some part of thisprocess, you are doing what you
need to do for you.
There is no guarantee that thatmeans that your loved one is
(49:47):
going to get clean and sober orstay clean and sober, because we
can't guarantee that.
But what we can guarantee isthat if you engage in this
program and you do one thing aday or one thing a week or
whatever is the pace for you, ifyou are continuing to do one or
(50:11):
two things regularly on yourown program, then you are still
in the process, and we alsoteach our families about the
stages of change, and so we helpour families to learn how to
identify where they are in theirstages of change because, like
Jill said, their neuro pathwaysneed to be healed.
(50:32):
They're hijacked, they need toform new habits.
There are so many things thatthe families need to change and
if they can look at themselvesthrough the eyes of being in a
change process like we have.
Principle two is all about howchange happens in stages, and we
spend time there, not justteaching family members what it
(50:53):
looks like for their loved oneschange process to happen in
stages, but also helping themview themselves through that
same model when are you in yourstages of change?
And I find that that really,when family members can really
grasp the stages of change andbegin to view themselves through
(51:15):
that lens, that is a tool forthem to be able to identify
where they're making progress,and it also allows them to say,
okay, well, I'm really making alot of progress and not enabling
, but I'm still having a hardtime over here in acceptance,
because you can be in differentstages in different areas all at
(51:37):
the same time.
So it allows them to feelsuccessful in the areas where
they're really doing well, andwe really try to focus on that
part.
We focus on where we're doingwell and we really like build on
the strengths.
And as people act on theirstrengths and they focus on
(51:58):
those things in those areas thatthey're doing well, the other
things improve kind ofautomatically.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Yeah, and for the listeners, they've only
scratched the surface of all thestuff that the bomb provides,
so it's so vast, with the onlinecommunity support, the
individualized and family bombcoaching and all the skills and
principles and concepts that youguys provide.
(52:24):
Thank you for joining us today.
I wish we had I try to keep itclose to an hour so thank you so
much.
Is there anything you guys,during this national recovery
month, that you'd like to sharebefore we close it up?
Speaker 4 (52:42):
Where there's breath, there's hope.
Never give up.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
And the power of being a loving mirror.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
I got some chills from that, I'm not kidding.
Thank you, guys, for joining ustoday.
And as we wrap up this episode,we want to emphasize a
fundamental aspect of the bombbe a loving mirror recovery
approach.
It recognizes that recoveryisn't just about helping your
loved one struggling withaddiction.
It's about your own personalrecovery journey as well.
(53:08):
Addiction impacts and extendsfar beyond the individual
struggling with it, affectingfamilies, friends and
communities.
Within this Adversity lies inopportunity for transformation
and growth.
Our heartfelt appreciation goesto you, jill and Lisa, for
their unwavering dedication toempowering families through the
(53:29):
bomb approach, renowned forfostering open communication and
building resilience.
Their insights and experiencesreally have illuminated a path
toward transformation andhealing.
So, in the spirit of nationalrecovery month, let us stand
together as a beacon of hope andempowerment, reach out to those
in need, offer your support andnever underestimate the impact
(53:51):
you can make.
Addiction recovery is acollective journey and by
nurturing compassion, educatingourselves and seeking the
necessary tools, we contributeto a more compassionate world.
So thank you for joining us andlaunching this profound
exploration, and stay tuned.
And this was our third of fourpart series.
(54:12):
We talked about the RecoveryAwareness Foundation.
We had a family member lastweek, a suicide law survivor
talk about his suicide journeyand helping others.
Today we have Jill and Lisa andnext week we'll be talking
about what is treatment healthytreatment, long-term treatment,
(54:33):
among a whole lot of otherthings.
If you found this beneficial inany way, please share with
others, as collectively we canfind a solution to all things
health and wellness.
Thank you all for joining us.
My name is Luke.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Thank you, lisa and Jill, thanks for joining us, and
this is Zaw.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
We'll see you guys next time.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (54:51):
Thanks guys, thanks guys.
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