Sex, Lies, and Addiction with Ann Taliaferro

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to A Therapist, a Buddhist in you,
brought to you by the RecoveryCollective.
If you haven't heard about theRecovery Collective yet, it's an
invaluable resource for anyoneon a journey toward health and
wellness, whether you're dealingwith addiction, seeking support
or looking to deepen yourunderstanding of mental health,
be sure to check us out, andmore information is in the link.
I'm your host and therapist,luke Dubois.
I'm excited to be joined by theincredible co-host and at least

(00:32):
my favorite, buddhist, salmon.
What's up, luke?
Hey guys, today we are thrilledto welcome Anne Tolliver.
She is a licensed counselor withlots of letters behind her name
, including the CSAT, whichstands for Certified Sex and
Addiction Therapist.
She has dedicated her career tohelping those struggling with
both substance use and sexaddiction.
With over a decade ofexperience in the field, anne

(00:54):
brings a wealth of knowledge andcompassion to our conversation.
Sex addiction is a topic thatis often misunderstood and
stigmatized, yet it's asignificant issue that affects
millions of people, warrantingattention and appropriate
therapeutic interventions, andwill help us demystify the
condition, exploring how itintersects with other forms of

(01:15):
addiction and what we can do tosupport those affected by it,
whether you're dealing withaddiction yourself, supporting
someone who is, or simplycurious about the intricacies of
human behavior.
This episode is packed withviable insights.
Now you might be thinking Idon't struggle with addiction,
so why should I listen?
Well, great question.
This episode isn't just forthose with a history of

(01:37):
addiction.
It's about understanding humanbehavior, resilience and how
interconnected our copingmechanisms can be.
You'll gain insights to thecomplexities of human nature
that can help you betterunderstand yourself and others
around you.
Why is this important?
Because we all have habits andbehaviors that we turn to in
times of stress and emotionalpain.
Learning about addiction canoffer us a mirror to reflect on

(02:00):
our own lives and find healthierways to cope.
And thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Thank you, thanks for inviting me.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Absolutely.
You were certainly the personthat came to my mind when Zell
and I were talking about thistopic, so let's kind of get into
it.
As we mentioned, sex addictionis a topic that is often
misunderstood and stigmatized,so if you could start off, can?

Speaker 3 (02:23):
you explain and scary .

Speaker 1 (02:25):
And a whole lot of other words.
Some people might be fearful,some people might be intrigued
by this conversation.
So what is sex addiction?
Let's start that way.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, in the same way that we look at substance use
addiction and there are, youknow, there's the medical
terminology and then there's thepersonal understanding that any
addict really has about theirexperience, that compulsive
behavior that happens to adegree that all other important

(03:00):
things cease to exist.
So in the world of particularlysex addiction versus sex
therapy, there is the sex ishealthy and it's good and it's a
way that we connect.
It's a primal need, it's one of.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

(03:20):
It's all good.
When it becomes maladaptive iswhen my need for that becomes
compulsive and I'm no longerable to function.
It's impacting my relationships, it's impacting my work, it's
impacting my finances.
There's a whole host of rippleeffect from what usually usually

(03:45):
not always, but usually ishappening in secret.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Because if the need is maladaptive or bad behaviors,
well, I feel the need to hidethat.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
And with sex addiction, it's really depending
on what it is.
It usually developed in secret.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
It usually developed.
We work a lot with betrayal andbetrayal trauma, so it is
usually an addict coming inafter being caught by their
partner who's now devastated,because when it all starts to
come out, it generally comes out, and he's like one incident and
then another incident and thenfinding out about 20 incidents

(04:26):
and then like, all of a sudden,the person I thought I knew has
been in.
there's a guy named Omar Minwalawho in the field has done a lot
of.
He's created his own sort oftraining and everything else,
but he talks about the secretsexual basement, his own sort of
training and everything else,but he talks about the secret
sexual basement and a littlecartoon of you know the

(04:48):
individual.
The addict is sort of downthere doing their thing and
everybody else is upstairs.
Just the world looks normal andit looks like you know and we
never know what's going on inthat secret sexual basement.
And he takes it as far as in mymind this will age me, but in
my mind there used to be a showcalled Get Smart and the opening

(05:09):
credits had him walking downthis long hallway, this very
long hallway, and I think ofthat in terms of the sex addict
where it's this really deep dive.
We were talking about deepdives earlier.
At the end of that is thissecret behavior.
They usually started beforethey ever met the person that
they end up with.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, let's relate this to other addictions like
substance use.
A lot of times we hear peoplewhy am I an addict?
How did it get to this level?
When it comes to that level of,maybe would you say, lust and
sex addiction, is it progressiveand how, in your eyes, does
that happen?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
In true sex addiction .
It's definitely progressive andit definitely escalates.
And what I've witnessed, whatI've experienced I am at the
beginning of the month Icelebrated 42 years of substance
use recovery.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
I'd say maybe 38 years.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
She's BC before crack , I'm before oxys, I'm before
fentanyl, I'm before, which I dokeep very upfront in terms of
if I ever relapse, man, there'sa laundry list of things that
weren't even invented.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
It's not even the marshmallow vodka that you're
talking about Nope.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
So it keeps me in check in terms of but I'd say
probably maybe 35 years, maybe36 years of sex and love,
addiction recovery, like reallygoing into that and doing it
intuitively, because therewasn't a lot of material that I
found or knew of in that realm.

(06:52):
I've had a lot of moments inthis training where I've gone.
Man, I wish this informationhad been out there that long ago
because I would not have feltso alone in what I was
experiencing.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
So give us.
There might be some listenersthat are going holy shit, this
is in the basement.
This is guilt and shame riddenin ways that maybe substance
abuse isn't as hidden as much,even hypothetically.
But what are potential timelineor symptoms of that progression
that are generally common withsex addiction?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
What I've seen and I think this is common with
substance use as well is thatsomewhere early on there is I
have not yet really heard astory that didn't include some
sentence or statement aroundfeeling different feeling
outside of feeling like I didn'tbelong, like I didn't fit.

(07:50):
There's some sort of eitherevent or just a general, it
could be neglect, it could beany number of things that made
me feel different.
And we are creatures created toconnect, to come into community
, to be together, to growtogether.

(08:10):
And that outside feeling, I mayhave othered myself, but my
perception was I didn't fit.
And it can be sentences thatare simple as, and it can be
sentences that are simple, as Igrew up in a very large family.
I was too sensitive and I was.
It was a very intuitive,sensitive child.

(08:32):
Children are just littleintuitors, they don't have words
for all the feelings.
But I'm the seventh of eightchildren.
I grew up in a crowd of peopleand it was noisy and boisterous
and wonderful in a lot of waysand completely overstimulating
to my system.
And somewhere in there I pickedup this message that I was a

(08:58):
problem and I didn't feel like Ifit into the general, whatever.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
You're not just different, but don't fit.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
But don't fit.
That isolation for me and inthe story that I sort of go into
with my clients, turns intothat's a really powerless
feeling.
And when you're out thereengaging in the world and
navigating, if you find any sortof information that fits that
narrative, that confirmationbias, it just builds on it and

(09:31):
you feel even more powerless asyou go along.
Then there can be, you know,catalyst events, there can be
bullying, there can be, you know, abuse of any sort.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
So when it comes to sex addiction, I often say how I
think affects how I feel, whichaffects how I act.
So what does that look like inthe early stages to progressing
with sex addiction?

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Well, I feel it.
I think it feels like you know,there is a tension.
There's a tension in that Oursystems are always looking for a
release of tension.
It's looking for homeostasis.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
I want to feel stable .

Speaker 2 (10:13):
For me, it was finding my father's Playboys in
the hall closet why they wereleft in the hall closet.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Just about.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
That's the story of a 37, eight year old boy that's
35 and older but I'm a girl andso this is informing who I am as
a woman at nine or 10 and whatI'm supposed to look like and
how I'm supposed to be.
I don't necessarily feel thatway.
So now I'm feeling to look likeand how I'm supposed to be.
I don't necessarily feel thatway.

(10:45):
So now I'm feeling even moredifferent and I'm looking at my
peers as I'm coming into myteenage years.
It is really confusing.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
It brings bodily feelings.
It brings yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
There's arousal.
There's arousal in these images.
They're really strong images.
Now, if you fast forward to now, it's porn and it's intentional
and it's really designed to bevery powerful and that arousal
and that's a great big, hugedopamine hit and that release.

(11:23):
So what has my brain learned?
It has learned that this thingrelieves this thing.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
So that's the beginning, with masturbation
right, and then that release,and a lot of the clients that
are in recovery or seekingrecovery, they're often first
addiction is masturbation.
Yeah, because it's what you'reexplaining that allows for
release.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, I mean.
Thank you, Anne, for joining us.
I'm just listening a lot andthis is a very important topic
and also a difficult topic formany people.
But my experience is like,compared to Western culture and
Eastern culture, and Easternculture, in Western culture sex
is more embraced, in comparisonto Eastern culture is suppressed
, but, um, yeah, but I have alot of questions and I don't

(12:10):
want to jump ahead, but myinitial thoughts are pretty much
that when somebody is born likecomparing substance abuse and
this kind of process addictionthat when somebody is born, that
person is not born with abottle out of the womb but for
this, uh, somebody's born withsome kind of sexuality.
It's part of our being.
We're sexual beings and that'show we exist, that's how we're

(12:30):
procreated.
So it's not something that wecan work against, you know.
It's not something to beeliminated right out of it,
because I also heard somestories where, uh, sex addiction
being followed by sexualanorexia that you act out so
much that you end up acting inyes, and there's that idea of
shame cycle that you do it.
There's a ritual, there's aremorse and they keep repeating

(12:52):
this fouling down.
And there are also extremeforms of this type of addiction,
which I shouldn't even mentionin this podcast of, like
prostitutions, you know, childpornography yes like human
traffic, things like that, likethings that it's all in there.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, it's a big soup of stuff.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, but I think it's also very important.
But maybe we can dive into itdown the line.
But what I wanted to learn fromthis conversation and then
wanted to be available tolisteners is, like how is that
therapy process like?
Because you know, it's notabout I'm going to eliminate sex
out of my life and my life willbe completely fine, because
that's the case for substanceabuse.
There's no such thing as I'mgoing to have a healthy

(13:31):
relationship with alcohol andthen my life will be great, you
know.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
So, like Well, it's like food addiction.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
You need to eat.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
So it's and it's not that I really like Drew Pinsky,
who, years ago, I heard him makethe statement that it isn't the
alcohol, it isn't the drugs, itisn't the sex, it's not the
food, it's not the gambling,it's my relationship to it.
So my relationship to sex wasthere wasn't anybody around me.

(14:00):
There were lots of peoplearound me, but there wasn't
anybody around me really tellingme that like, like masturbation
is okay, it's, it's, it'snatural.
It's normal and of course, youfeel good and you know here.
Here are the ways to kind of dothat in a healthy way.
Here's the way to be healthy.
I had the.
If somebody finds out thatyou're doing this or you

(14:24):
overhear people talking aboutdoing this, you hear about it in
a really shame-based way, soyou start to feel like I'm doing
something wrong.
But I would also say that,because this has been one of
those things even from the timethat you and I worked together,
luke, I would ask my clientswhen they came in in the course

(14:57):
of that intake well, like, tellme how much secret keeping and
you know, lying and sort ofrisking things and getting away
with it plays into you gettinghigh and again I getting caught.
The idea of and in my addiction,that was very much a piece of
the idea of getting caught inthis, in this compromising

(15:21):
position, added an extrasomething to the whole thing.
So to your question, cominginto recovery and sort of
putting down that compulsive useof was sort of like well, what
do I do now?
What is healthy?

(15:41):
What does healthy look like?
Because now it's not a secret,now it's like there's no, you
know, it's okay, you can do whatyou want to do, kind of thing.
Well, now it's, it's sort oftaken a big like well, now it
doesn't seem all thatinteresting.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
The high of secrecy yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, asked us in one of my training modules one of
the questions that we had tobefore our break.
They said I want you to writedown an answer to the question
of what is sex for, what is thepurpose of?
And it seems like a reallysimple question until you start
to ask yourself like what is themeaning of this for me?

(16:21):
And when we came back out of aI think my cohort was like 68
people everybody had a differentanswer.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
It's kind of like spirituality, yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
There's a thousand different definitions for
spirituality.
Yeah, and what's the meaning?
Sort of sexual energy andhaving sex every day is a thing
that like, that's great, that'sfantastic.

(16:51):
But if I'm with somebody who Iwant to have sex every day and
their sex drive is once a weekand we never talk about it, what
starts happening?

Speaker 1 (17:05):
The intimacy starts to be affected.
What I mean by that is there'ssexual intimacy, communication
intimacy, emotional intimacy,physical intimacy, and when we
don't have those conversations,the sexual intimacy is
drastically affected.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, and somebody is going.
I always feel like I'minitiating sex and you don't
want it, and then I feelrejected and then I'm turning
away from and we're still nottalking about it.
We're still not talking aboutwhy, if this person over here,
sex drive is impacted becausethey're spending their mornings
and evenings masturbating topornography.

(17:43):
The real-time interaction is somuch harder when you're a kid
and you stumble upon porn andthat's what teaches you what sex
is.
And then you meet someone andyou interact with them and you
are attracted to them and youwant to have sex with them.
None of what you experience inreal time looks like what you

(18:07):
were watching on screen.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Is porn ever healthy?

Speaker 2 (18:12):
I think it can be.
I think in some formats it canbe and I've had those
conversations with people that Iwork with.
But again, I think it's thecommunication and again, if I
have a partner who's like yeah,porn doesn't bother me, I don't
care if you watch porn, in factthat can be part of what we do

(18:32):
together.
That can be part of what getsus going can bring intimacy
together it can sex together.
Yeah, but what's missing in alot of what happens in the
maladaptive and the addictionrealm is we're not good
communicators.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
So when it comes to porn, how does that lead to
maladaptive or sex addiction fora lot of people?

Speaker 2 (19:07):
usually start with is pretty um, what they would term
in the in the sex addictionworld, vanilla, or even in the
sex therapy world, vanilla.
It's pretty, you know, manwoman mild, you know and that
will do.
You know, it's kind of like thefirst time I got high, you know,
felt like a really big feeling.
And it feels really biginitially, that dopamine hit,

(19:29):
that level is going to top out,and then what happens?
The same thing with drugs Ineed more in order to get a
bigger feeling.
So my arousal is going to topout bigger feeling, so my
arousal is going to top out andthen I'm going to need something

(19:49):
that's more powerful and thatmay be something very, very
different.
Now I do.
I do have some clients who, ata very young age, stumbled upon
things like sissyhypnopornography, which is a
whole other.
This is something new to me.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Google it.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
But don't look at it.
That was my client.
Don't look at it.
Investigate it, but don't lookat it.
It's very, very powerful.
It's very.
It is very like takesbrainwashing techniques and at
eight or nine years old, to havesomething like that hit your
brain it's not meant for it?

(20:28):
oh no, not at all.
Um, and there's um very littleresearch about it, it's it.
What I found the other day wassome numbers on how, uh, there
were 300,000 followers of thisbefore the pandemic and that
sort of doubled post-pandemic,and that is somebody who is.

(20:53):
We're now all isolated, andthis is where that sort of
isolation came up for me,because there were a lot of
people who just lost it in thatisolation me, because there were
a lot of people who just lostit in that isolation, and a lot
of these behaviors went, gotreally escalated and really out
of hand.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
And it's a quick release a quick release?

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, and so, in the same way that the tension builds
and I go out and I get drunk orI get high, I go out and I
either you know, I either watchporn and masturbate or I find a
sex worker, or I even justwebcamming and OnlyFans.

(21:34):
And now I'm not just in a realmof sexual behaviors, behaviors
I am spending, money I'm takingfrom the family finances because
there's a big price that yougot to pay for that.
It's all very transactional.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, and the the, the porn or the webcamming goes
back to your awareness that youbrought up.
When it comes to communication,whether it's communicating with
the spouse or communicatingreally with ourselves, with what
we're doing and why we're doingit With drugs and alcohol,
there's a relationship, often atoxic relationship, with
substances.
Do you look at sex, maladaptivebehaviors, as its own toxic

(22:22):
relationship?
What's your parallel?

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yes, and you know again, in the same way, it's not
the thing, it's my relationshipto the thing.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
And I'm.
What is the purpose that I'musing it for?
When you have someone finallyget to that point where they go,
oh, I'm using this person tofill a void and they can't fill
that void.
My partner can't even fill thatvoid.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
And for a lot of your clients, it takes a spouse to
find out a.
What are some of the othernegative things that bring
people to sex therapy?

Speaker 2 (23:04):
The police A little at the door oh yeah, oh yeah.
Which has been really, reallyfascinating when, halfway
through my sort of expansion ofaddiction therapy, my boss said,
you know, I have somebody whoyou know has is in the court

(23:26):
system and you know how do youfeel about working with an
offender, and I was like I gotsome feelings.
My nature is more curious thanjudgmental.
So you know there is thatinitial like oh that you know

(23:47):
that's usually only in one realmand that's really very
stigmatized and verycontroversial and should be
rightly so.
But again, why?

Speaker 1 (23:59):
There's a rhyme or reason why we do the things we
do.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
What drove somebody to that?
I'm curious.
I'm always curious about that.
Why do I do the things that Ido?
Why do you do the things thatyou do?
What shaped you and brought youto that place?
And that's where, for me, mostof what I did in my master's
program was trauma andneurobiology and just sort of my

(24:24):
own nerdy, obsessed desire tounderstand the why, the roots,
the brain root.
And there's a lot of traumabehind what drives somebody to
like watching child pornography.
There is also an element of Iwould throw this in there
there's an element of and you'rethe generation of kids and kids

(24:48):
behind you like coming intovideo games and video games
being a big thing and you'resitting alone in your room with
your little video games.
Well, there's a whole backdoorchannel in that video game world
and that virtual world thatleads right into chat rooms,
that lead people right intoconversations with people who

(25:10):
really want to pull you in tothis whole world, into the
webcamming world, into thelooking at things and to and
that.
I have heard that story morethan a number of times that
there was no intentional.
I'm going and looking for thisthing.
There was a.
I'm over here and then you know, like those little YouTube

(25:33):
little little story things thatare running along the side, like
oh, that's interesting too, letme go to there.
And let me go to there, and nowthere's an algorithm that is
taking me down a very nefariouspath.
I didn't think I was in those,and now there's an algorithm
that is taking me down a verynefarious path.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
I didn't think I was in those people, places and
things, but there was some ofthat going on, yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
So Luke brought that up about intimacy.
I think it's important.
I guess it's difficult or it'simpossible to talk about sex
addiction without intimacy.
It goes back to what you weresaying earlier about.
I guess it's common inaddiction like feeling different
.
But also intimacy cannot occurwithout vulnerability.

(26:20):
So like there's also anespecially with a sex addiction,
there's an aspect of nottrusting.
Start trusting it's probablyvery, very difficult, but also
that's probably the onlysolution to start having a
healthy, open relationship.
I guess there's also an aspectof self-compassion too, right,
like to be self-acceptance ofsome kind.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Self-honesty, that can get you to self-acceptance,
that can get you toself-compassion.
That's a really good point.
And I would say and I shouldsay because I just recently sort
of looked at my caseload andwent I have more men on my

(26:59):
caseload than I have women, thanI have women.
So a shout out to the men and Ihave said that to a lot of my
clients a shout out to the menbecause we've also had this
belief that men don't go and gethelp.
More women go get help, morewomen are diagnosed with more

(27:19):
and and I hate that and it's notparticularly true- and it's not
just the men that are gettingthat knock from 911 either.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Right.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Right, and there are women.
I mean I have we all sort of inmy practice, in the practice
that I'm in, have different sortof are specialties, um, have
different sort of our ourspecialties, and one of my
coworkers, um, really sort ofdeals with women, sex and love
addiction, um, not that I don'thave some of those clients as

(27:54):
well.
So it's not, you know, it's notindicative of one or the other,
but when you, when you talkabout vulnerability, I do see
that like the biggest obstaclefor men is to get out from
behind a very deep seated beliefthat if I, if I show you who I
really am, if I come in as meright off the bat, you are going

(28:18):
to reject me.
And so I can't really tell youthese things, because it is a
conversation that I have with myclients.
If they're not in arelationship and they're going
to embark on dating, it's like.
So when are we going to tellthat person that we have this
struggle and we seek help forthis and we're doing this thing

(28:39):
Because that's a reallyimportant piece of information
for the person that you'reinterested in?
And on the other side of that, Ican tell you every partner,
every woman in particular, but Ithink men probably would feel
the same way too will say I canforgive the behavior.

(29:03):
That's a big statement.
I can forgive the behavior.
That's a big statement.
I can forgive the behavior.
It's the lies and the deceptionLike they knew before they
dated me, married me, had kidswith me that they had this
problem and they never told me.
Or I said when we were datingand they never told me.
Or I said when we were datingmy last boyfriend was a sex

(29:26):
addict.
I don't want that.
And they never admitted thatthey were too or that they had
an issue or a problem.
And now they're on the back endof.
I trusted you that what youtold me was true because you
weren't vulnerable enough totell me who you really were.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
For someone with that fear of guilt and shame that's
preventing them from beingproactive in their recovery
process.
What would you tell them?
Because that's one reason.
Another reason might be theymight fear about being able to
perform or ejaculate if theyweren't doing these intense

(30:07):
actions.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Well, I think the biggest piece in not getting
honest with your partner aboutthat stuff, what people don't
realize is you take away theopportunity for your partner to
support you.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Connection.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, vulnerability, and it's so much harder to try
to get that connection back thanto go in and be vulnerable.
There is a risk.
There is a risk that yourpartner might go nope.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Sure that fear can prevent you from taking the
action.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
But my take is, if I'm dating, when I'm dating, I
want to know that early on.
I want to know that in thebeginning, when it you know like
yeah, ouch, it's going to hurt,I put a lot of possibility in
that early, that limerence stageRight.

(31:07):
I am really fascinated withthis idea.
This came out of like listeningto all these stories and going
I wonder why, when we first meetsomeone, we give them 100% of
our trust and we believeeverything that they tell us.
When we know the least thatwe're ever going to know about
them ever, we go here.

(31:28):
I believe you and everythingyou're saying.
I have no idea who you are, butthe picture that you're
painting for me is so beautifulI'm getting really emotionally
invested.
You're telling me you want kidsand you want family and this is
what our life is going to looklike, and none of that looks
like what's going on present day.
But let's skip that, let's justlook ahead.

(31:51):
And then, 20 years down theroad, it's like this person is
not even anything close to whatI imagined that they would be.
This is not the life that Isigned up for and and we've seen
that in substance use as well Iused to teach family education
and I used to go.
You know you're feeling alittle blindsided that your

(32:11):
person is in treatment and youhad no idea what was going on
and what they were doing.
And this is what it's going tolook like.
You know the addict in treatmentusually spends that time doing.
You know, if they're doing thework, they're paying attention
and doing a lot of really hardwork and they're feeling so good
about themselves when they'releaving that they're like, man,

(32:33):
I'm going to go home and myfamily should throw out a red
carpet and there should be aparade for me because I'm doing
all this work and your familydid not get the 30, 60, 90 days
of treatment.
They're at home trying to holdeverything down with a laundry
list of things that hurt them,and you're going to come out and

(32:55):
hit this wall of wait.
Why are you not happy that I'vedone all this stuff?
And they're like oh, we're justbeginning.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
And that vulnerability is tough, and that
vulnerability is tough and thatvulnerability is very tough.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
It's humility, there's a, there's a and there's
that paradox that I think mostof us sort of grow up in this
world of like either or Thingshave to either be this way, or
they have to be that way, and aseither, with maturity, maybe
those normal people go throughthat.

(33:30):
I don't know who they are.
I'm not one of them.
Through this work that we dowhat we recognize, particularly
in recovery, I think itintroduces the idea very early
on that there's a lot of paradox, there's a lot of both and
there's a lot of.
I am an addict.
If I feed this thing in me, Iwill implode my life, without a

(33:54):
doubt, and I'm not using todayand that means I have a better
chance at being a better versionof me than I ever had the
opportunity before.
It's not one or the other.
I have to walk with my addictright next to me.
I'm not shoving them in acloset.
I have to have them right nextto me.
I have to be able to go.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yeah, I am capable of incredible harm and I'm working
really hard to not feed that,to not be that today there's a
sense of uh, as I'm listening,there's a sense of like double
life for sex addict because,like you mentioned earlier,
there's a a sense of beliefsystem where I am deeply

(34:39):
defected, so I'm going to haveto hide it and I'm going to
appear this way, and thatcreates that lack of intimacy
because you lose a sense ofconnection within yourself.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
Absolutely.
The world will shun me if Ishow you who I really am.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Yeah, so yeah, that's very deep, but Luke knows this
really well about recovery.
You know recovery is aboutchange, but then I also know
this from my own home countryand political situations like
real change happens when thesystem changes.
Otherwise it's just asuperficial change.
So for an addict, like there isa belief system that is

(35:16):
impaired, that is incorrect.
That is not so.
Only if that belief systemchanges things will change,
because growing up with thatsense of I am defective.
If that's a belief system, theworld is outside of this wall
and then there's a lack ofconnection and I'm gonna,

(35:36):
usually unconsciously, veryunconsciously, set up situations
that are going to confirm thatdefective I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
I'm gonna say things or do things or or repeat
situations that will then like,well, see, I'm defective, see,
nobody cares about me.
Well then like, well, see, I'mdefective, see, nobody cares
about me.
And then I'm going to justifygoing back to the maladaptive
behavior.
So the isolation turns intopowerlessness For me.

(36:09):
Very specifically, I could goback to exactly when, as a
teenager, I felt very powerlessteenager.
I felt very powerless and veryalone and very resentful, very,
very angry about the power thatI felt other people had over me,
whether it was in the judgmentsand opinions they had of me or

(36:29):
the decisions that were beingmade for me or about me.
And that was when my veryoppositional defiant came
roaring out of the gate.
And that was.
That was sex, drugs, rock androll, that that was whatever,
whenever, whoever however, don'tcare the rationalization and

(36:55):
justification for all sorts ofreally, really really
self-destructive and destructiveto relationships behavior came
out for me and I think there isa maybe not a track that clear,
but there is generally thattrack of what I see and what I

(37:15):
work with with my clients isidentifying that sense of
isolation and that level ofpowerlessness.
And that came out of askingthat question of like,
particularly with relapse.
It's like, well, when did thisrelapse happen?
And it's like, well, my wifewas out of town or you know, she
was upset with me and I wasalone and I was bored.

(37:38):
That word boredom, like numberone on the Family Feud
leaderboard of what could causeyou to relapse.
Boredom, what does thatactually mean?
That was my question.
I was like what is actuallyhappening in that boredom?

Speaker 1 (37:52):
What are you thinking , what are you feeling?

Speaker 2 (37:54):
What do you?
You know, yeah, I'm feelingalone.
I'm feeling alone.
I'm feeling alone and I don'tknow, because really it's like
you know, boredom, like man,when I'm, when I have nothing to
do, I have 8 000 creativethings to think of, doing, like
the last thing on the list islet me go drink or drug or go
have sex with a random stranger,or you're like that.

(38:14):
That's not there anymore, thankgoodness.
But I got it.
You know, when I think about inthat early stage and that early
recognition of of, particularlyin early recovery and for I
mean it happens for substanceabuse, but when I'm working with
sex addicts too, it's like Ihave to really get you on board

(38:36):
with feeling reallyuncomfortable for a while, like
the discomfort won't kill youand it's so necessary.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
And it goes back to that lack of connection.
And I often ask people are youalone?
Yes, but is it really lonely?
And when you're lonely, whatcomes up for you?
Right, and that, yeah, it'slack of connection.
But, boy, the emotions and the.
And then wanting to cope withfeeling lonely or not just

(39:05):
comfortable with, really notwith the uncomfortability,
really, right, I mean, Iremember feeling that and going
home, oh my gosh, I'm alone, butI'm just lonely after a
four-year breakup, you know,living by myself.
And then what behaviors cancome with that and wanting to.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
What are my choices in that loneliness?

Speaker 3 (39:22):
yeah, I don't have to stay lonely yeah, I want to ask
about the social skills aspectof this too, because, um, that
the relational, because ouridentities are relational.
And since we're talking aboutlike porn, for example, like, if
somebody finds out porn at anearly age, there's, you know,
because when you want to go outwith somebody, you got to ask
somebody out and there's a senseof rejection, you know.

(39:45):
But, like, when you getpleasure from porn, there's no
sense of rejection, you can justget it whenever you want it.
But then the more you do that,the more you're dissociating
from the society, like havingthose you know, and then it
develops low self-esteem andthen the lower your self-esteem
goes, the harder to makeconnection with other people you

(40:05):
know.
So, like, how do you help a sexaddict to have that relational
identity again, to be out in theworld?
Because you know boredomwouldn't happen if you're, if
you have a good sense ofbelonging, like, oh, yeah, I'm
gonna call someone because I'mbored, yeah, but, but other than
that, if I have no one to callbecause I've isolated myself so

(40:25):
much.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
That and that's and that's part of the kicker too is
like my partner, who, who Ilove and I think that's true, I
mean, for most it's like I lovemy wife and my kids.
I really, you know, but yourpartner's not feeling that right
now.
They're feeling really betrayedand they're as isolated as you
are, like you've broken anyattempt at that relational bond

(40:48):
and so now you've done the thingthat was the worst case
scenario for you.
None of us wants to be lonelyand isolated and without love
and connection.
But through my behavior andthen getting caught in the
behavior, I've really done thebiggest, worst, like I've really
cut myself off from you and nowI'm really in that spiral and

(41:13):
so again it's coming into that,like it's going to be
uncomfortable, but we're goingto have to deconstruct this from
that belief of I'm not goodenough and so I have to mask
myself as this other person into.
This is who I am and in thisspace right now, as I am, you

(41:36):
are rejecting me.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, that's a truth cause-effect action, and I have
to accept that I have to likeyeah, I did that.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
It's a lot of again.
It's a lot of the both-and.
It's like in order to getbetter, we have to start with
the, the dialectic behavioraltherapy.
The two truths are here and Ihave to sit with that and I have
to get a little morecomfortable with that idea
because that's the one movingforward.

(42:07):
I've seen it in substance useand I've seen it in sex
addiction, where there'softentimes this initial the
partner says well, this is whatI need from you in order to stay
in this marriage or thisrelationship, this is what I
need for you to do.
And it's often like you need togo to meetings and you need to

(42:28):
work with a therapist and youneed to be doing this work.
What does that mean?
Like I didn't even.
I was three years into myrecovery before I hit that
emotional bottom with my sex andlove addiction and had to like
oh, this is the work, this isthe actual thing that's really

(42:50):
going to change me, that'sreally going to move me forward.
And it was a very spiritual,spiritual awakening, was that?
Up until that point, it waslike I'd hear people talk about.
I was like yeah, I haven't hadthat I'm not.
That's not happening for me.
It was performance based.
I did my recovery in aperformance based format for a

(43:14):
solid couple of years.
I did all the things but I didit.
So I was checking boxes so Icould sit in a meeting and I did
all the things, but I did it.
So I was checking boxes so Icould sit in a meeting and I
could hear the topic and I couldgo.
Oh yeah, this is what I knowabout that.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
It's not uncommon for people to come to Recovery
Collective I'm sure you see ittoo people 3, 5, 10, 15, 20
years and then address their sexaddiction, their lust, their
gambling, their other behaviors.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
This other thing that we don't talk about in the AA
realm, which is a shame, in myopinion, because it's happening
and.
I've seen it.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
And I think it's where we are at in our culture
and society now with thegambling and the easy access to
the full spectrum of sex andlust that we can visibly see and
easily get to.
That might have been a lotharder 20 years ago that I hope
it becomes much more parallel asa focus, primarily together.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, so my work has to start with.
How did this begin?
What's the core system here?
It's usually shame-based.
It's usually that isolation ofand then working with that shame
into that.
You know it's going to beperformative because we got to
learn.
We got to learn the tools.

(44:31):
We have to pick up the tools.
We have to get comfortable withthe tools.
We have to start learning totake some risks.
You know, like, who is yoursupport system?
What's been your wife?
She's really mad at you.
She does not want to.
Like you're on your own, buddy,so who else do we have to lean
on?
And this is where and this issomething I've seen in 12-step

(44:55):
recovery in substance use is.
I think one of the mostbeautiful things I've ever seen
is to go to an anniversary of aman and have other men talk
about him in such a beautiful,loving, caring sort of way.
To hear men sit in that realmand go I love you and connect in

(45:17):
that it's like, oh, it gives megoosebumps, you know, because
that, I think, has been lost foryou.
You guys have been taught andtrained.
You get, you know, one or twoemotions and they're usually the
angry ones.
You know who are you if you sayI love you, who are you, you
know, if you show yoursensitivity, you, you know, it's

(45:39):
you do around the golf for fourhours.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
What do you talk about?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Yeah yeah, stuff way up here and I I'm very lucky
that I have a husband who waslike you know I I have no
interest in those conversations,like you know, I'll I'll be in
the kitchen with the womentalking about the deep emotional
, you know, but he has carried alot of that shame stuff as well
.

(46:05):
We sort of worked on it in a.
We were not together at thetime but we were kind of working
on that stuff in our own littlejourneys and it made being able
to communicate about that stuffa little bit better.
Although what's reallyinteresting in this work in the
last several years that I'vedone like we're now having

(46:25):
conversations that are like, wow, this is really interesting.
There's a lot of other thingsin there that impact
relationships.
Right, you get you know again.
You have that picture of whatit's going to look like.
You have that picture that youlearned on the screen, not just
from pornography, but even fromour movies.
You know, I mean, I always goback to Jerry Maguire and the

(46:46):
moment of you complete me and Igo.
That's a terrible sentence.
That is, that you fill the voidin me and that is.
You know, it's like.
What happened after that storyis what I'm always curious about
, because if that's the reality,we probably ran into some
stumbling blocks there.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, you completely triggers my codependency Deeply.
What?
Does what would, for thespouses, the family members who
are listening to this episode,talk about enabling someone with
maladaptive behaviors with sexand lust and sex addiction?

(47:28):
How would you help the familymembers that might either be
struggling?

Speaker 2 (47:36):
or might be enabling these unhealthy behaviors, might
be enabling these unhealthybehaviors.
Usually, what I have to do inthe beginning is listen to a lot
of stuff about the partner whohas abused the trust right.
It's a lot of validation.
You're not crazy.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
You know that sentence is not okay.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
That is gaslighting Any addiction wants to train the
spell, so that way theaddiction continue.
Right, that's the idea.
I want you to walk an eggshellso I can continue my unhealthy
behavior.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Well, yeah, well, because we're very intuitive.
You know, we, as human beings,are very intuitive.
We don't trust our intuition.
We don't trust our intuition.
We have our heads full of allsorts of weird stuff that you
know, if I go, this doesn't feelright and I bring that to you
and you say what are you talkingabout?

(48:26):
You're being crazy.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
I have been called crazy in the past.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
It is a very awful feeling to be called that and
every single time coming out ofyou know those relationships and
looking back like I wasn'tcrazy, I was on to something, so
listeners if that is you, ifyou're like you, can't trust
your intuition.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
That wise part of self, that is a wonderful reason
to go to therapy.
Yes, empower that wise part ofself.
That is a wonderful reason togo to therapy.
Yes, empower that wise part ofself, all right, continue.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yes, because that is where so much of the damage is
done.
So the partner has not only,you know, been betrayed in this
discovery and discovery is awhole other thing we could talk
about, because it typicallyhappens in a death by a thousand
cuts sort of scenario wherethere's the much like the addict

(49:25):
.
It's like, well, I caught himdrinking, and it's you know well
, how much are you drinking.
You know I'm having a couple ofbeers every night.
It's like, well, let's multiplythat by 10.
That's the safe bet, yeah andthen add in a few other things,
because we're going to find outabout those later just a couple

(49:47):
and and so you know there is the, the.
I saw a text on my husband'sphone and it always starts with
I had a feeling.
I've never had this feelingbefore, but I had a feeling and
so for some reason, I went tolook at my husband's phone.
Now the husband will say hadhim say it.
Well, isn't that a violation ofmy boundaries and my trust that

(50:10):
she's looking at my phone?
I'm like did you have somethingon your phone that was secret
and you didn't want to be seen?
Because really I should be ableto hand you my phone and go hey
, look away, I have nothing tohide.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
That can be true.
However, the justification thevulnerability.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
If I'm looking for something, why am I looking for
something?
I'm probably going to findsomething.
I'm probably going to findsomething.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Yeah, and they do, but what they find may be pretty
.
I was going to say benign, butthat's not the right word, early
warning sign.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Or it may be a massage parlor or maybe, and
there's a story around why andwhat and it was really nothing.
That's another one of thosegaslighting.
You know it was nothing.
Or it was because of you, itwas because we had that fight,
or you were paying attention tothe kids, or and that's just

(51:11):
another cut.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
And then there's that's a slash, but go ahead
then there's what mich Mayscalls Sherlocking.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
So I, as the betrayed partner, then go into like well
, what else is there?
Because now there's a tinylittle rip in the fabric of my
reality and now all sorts ofquestions are coming out.
And now, man, we are a womanwhose intuition is now like the

(51:40):
radar has gone up.
We are the most, the greatestinvestigative.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, the hunting and gathering.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
So we go into Sherlocking mode and we start
and we and then the questionsstart, and then we come back
with more questions and at thatpoint, like the light is now on
the addict and they're like, ohman, I'm caught.
And if they, if they have, ifthey have a level of like, oh,

(52:12):
this is bad and I and I, I wantto reconnect with my partner, so
I want to give them whatthey're asking me for.
It's a really, really trickyplace because you're asking me
for the truth.
I'm going to keep giving youthe truth.
It's going to keep punching youin the face and I'm and I'm
asking to be punched in the face.

(52:33):
It's a really awful and that'susually when we get people.
So I'm validating what'shappening for the face.
It's a really awful and that'susually when we get people.
So I'm validating what'shappening for the partner and at
the same time, I'm going.
You might want to stop askingthose questions right now, just
for the time being.
What we do in our practice iswe do something called a

(52:54):
disclosure, if the partner wantsit.
The betrayed partner partnerwants like I want all the
information, I want to know howbad this is, how far back it
goes, how deep this wound is putit in black and white paper,
huh we want it.
It's a it's a four-stepinventory like no other, yeah,

(53:15):
but it also goes all the wayback.
I take my addicts all the waylike when did this actually
start for you as a behavior torelease that tension.
Because one of the things Ihave to teach my partners is
that, in most cases with sexaddiction, what started never

(53:37):
had your name on it.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
It starts at hello right.
It starts at clicking on thatwebsite or oh, look on that
Facebook and that wasn't everabout a partner.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
That was about your addict finding a way out of
distress.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Yeah, and the addict certainly removes denial that
disclosure process transparency,it's vulnerability.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
But how long did it take you to come out of denial?

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
How long did it take you, zah, to come out of denial?
I mean, I walked in with.
Well, it might be this might bebad, but not all this other
layers.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Right, it's layers.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
It's peeling back layers of, to get to truth,
Right?
So there's that there again.
There's that both end of like.
I want to be truthful with you.
I don't even know what thatmeans for me.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yeah, you might think you're being truthful.
Then you get to a whole notherlevel of trust and honesty with
the disclosure, with the supportof everyone involved, with the
treatment.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
I was so masked, I was so and I was really young.
I didn't even have an identity.
When I got sober I was 19 yearsold.
I was barely.
I was an amoeba.
I was saying I was honest, butI didn't realize, realize how
full of shit I was.
But I was as honest as I couldbe at the time, and that's a lot

(55:05):
of where I start with people islike you have to start with.
I'm a liar?
yeah, I'm absolutely a liar andI didn't think I was first and
foremost I'll tell you what Ithink is true, what I think you
might want to be true.
Yeah, I don't know what truthis.
I used to sit in meetings allthe time and when they were like
the topic is honesty, I'd go ohman, I got nothing.
Everything out of my mouth feltlike is that really true?

(55:28):
I don't even know.
I don't know was the mosthonest answer I could give, and
nobody wants that answer.
Nobody wants I don't know, butI.
To me, that is the greatestthing that we can wrestle with

(55:49):
and come to dealing with the Idon't know, swimming in the
uncertainty of it is not clearright now, in the uncertainty of
it is not clear right now.
So I really for me to try totell you something that feels
honest would be dishonest.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Yeah, yeah, so I'm thinking just buddhist
principles.
I'm thinking about cravings andletting go of suffering and
upset like what's on your mindwhen it comes to your
perspective I mean, sex is nottalked about that much in
buddhism.
So but they try to avoid it.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Yeah, it falls under the category of, you know,
cravings.
Um, as I'm listening to thisconversation again, like life is
supposed to be enjoyable.
Life is supposed to be.
We're supposed to be happy.
I don't know if pleasure is theright word define that though,
like finding finding joy,finding meaning and purpose in
life, but like for a sex addict,if the pleasure is getting out

(56:45):
of only in this behavior, thenalso, especially in an addiction
, it's insatiable.
Like you want this, you getthis and you want more.
They're seeking of the noveltyover and over again, but the
real pleasure, real joy and lifedoesn't create more suffering.
I love connecting with mychildren, and that's it.
You know that's meaningful.
I love what I do.
That's meaningful.

(57:07):
Life is supposed to be enjoyablethat way, with, like you know,
having a sense of being at easewith who you are and then
finding joy in that, and thensex is one of the many things
that you're supposed to enjoywhen you're approaching life.
That way, sex is placed in aproper place.
I know there are some peoplewho practice celibacy as well.
Sex can bleed out their lifeand they find peace.

(57:27):
But I think that really is thekey component of recovery in
this to find your true identity,being at ease with who you are.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Absolutely.
And I asked the sort ofdefinition of happiness because
that is one of those places thatI go to with people, because
for me one of the discoverieswas my assumption of happiness
was euphoria, which feelsdifferent to me than joy, and so

(57:59):
that was a you know, long intomy recovery, like I am still
seeking that euphoric.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Euphoric is almost like an escape to me when you
said that, yeah, yeah, that'slike if you could see our faces
like, oh yeah, I know whatthat's like.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
The hit.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
I just dreamed.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
The hit, the big hit, and I had to do this, like, oh,
I feel like joy is a more.
It involves that contentment,it involves that connection to
self and presence and it'ssustainable, like I can work
towards that, like I could wakeup every day and decide I'm

(58:42):
going to be in a place of thatversus I am seeking this hit.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
To me, that's the difference between an earned
high joy and an unearned higheuphoria.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
You're working for that unearned high, you got to
hide it and you're doing actions.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
But one is a different kind of connection
yeah, and the true joy, thatpresence, that piece of it
doesn't cause harm.
It has its own, it has its ownboundaries and it has its own.
I can say this feels good.
This doesn't feel good like Iknow what the parameters are of

(59:20):
that.
This euphoria thing is like aninsatiable monster that can
never be.
It's never gonna be satisfied.
We have a mutual friend and shewill.
She will say in her workshopsthat I've done with her.
She will say that I taught her.
Like she came bouncing intowork one day talking about
another date that she'd gone onand you know, asking my advice

(59:44):
and I said well, do you want up,do you really want a
relationship or do you want tohit?
and she looked like I slappedher in the face it's like but
and it just sort of organicallycame out of me, like you know,
I've been hearing about thesedates and these experiences and
they sound, they sound like hitsto me, they sound like really

(01:00:06):
intense experiences but theydon't sound sustainable, you
know, and there is, there isthat realization that going into
relationship, anna Lembke is agoddess.
I love her.
She wrote a book calledDopamination and I listened to

(01:00:29):
her in an interview on ArmchairExpert and she talks not just
about substance abuse but shetalks about sex addiction.
She talks about all sorts ofmental health things that have
to do with our dopaminergicsystem and how that really, when
we get hooked in that, how thatreally then starts to inform

(01:00:52):
our thinking, our beliefs andour behavior.
Thinking, our beliefs and ourbehavior so much of you know
there's, there's this idea thatyou know, I think from one place
and I think, and then I make ithappen and we are so driven by

(01:01:14):
our unconscious parts of ourbrain so much more than we ever
really realized.
So another aspect of what I tryto work with in my clients is
like we have to bring thatunconscious stuff to the surface
.
We have to understand themulti-dimensional parts of us
and how we.
It's not just our minds but ourbodies.
When we move into our bodiesand we start to listen to that
intuition, it has informed memore and moved me away from more

(01:01:40):
negative situations in my croneyears as I am in, and in really
, really profound ways.
Like my brain was going, we donot understand what the
situation is, we do not have theinformation.
What the situation is, we donot have the information, no one
is giving us the information,but the system is going offline

(01:02:03):
and that is telling us there isa huge unsafe thing happening
here and I move away from it andwithin.
It doesn't happen right away alot of times, but within weeks,
all of a sudden, the rest of theinformation is revealed.
It's like, oh, weeks, all of asudden, the rest of the
information is revealed.
It's like, oh, oh, I did dodgea bullet.

(01:02:24):
I didn't know I was doing thatand I didn't understand why.
Now my head also has in thereyou're being crazy, you're just
being, you're being dramatic andyou're being, you know, you're
making things up here and, and,and I, I will, my brain will
fill in, you know we're good atthat in the I don't know space
that my brain doesn't like.
It'll go, let's make up a story.

(01:02:44):
Let's make up a story.
We can get some good storiesgoing.
I see this a lot of times withmy clients.
They'll do that.
They'll future trip as somebodywe worked with in the past.
It'll go into some reallycatastrophic amazing.
I had a client once who had toleave treatment because he was
completely convinced that hiswife and child had been in a car

(01:03:05):
accident and that's why theyhadn't shown up at the facility.
No evidence.
The wife was actually justtaking her time because he was
in treatment and she was kind ofmad.
I was like no, I'm not runningup there 20 minutes from now to
give you what you want.
I'm not rushing for yourcigarettes complete story, and

(01:03:29):
that's what betrayed partners gothrough too, right?
So there's the aftermath ofwell, now my partner's gone to
treatment and they're coming outand they're saying they're in
recovery.
They say they're going tomeetings, they say the, but I
don't see anything changing.
That's a really tough.
That's a really tough space towork with people.

(01:03:52):
Yeah, because they're.
They're then putting them in myhands and going change my
partner and it's not happeningfast enough.
And I've I've had several justrecently where it's like so how
long have we been in nine months?
I'm like, okay, not even at ayear, but we're really pressing
to have some big, dramaticchanges happen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
What support groups or recovery recommendations
would you recommend for thebetrayed loved ones?

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
there are, I mean connected with every you know SA
, SAA even you know AA and allthose.
There is some sort of familysupport group and I would say
definitely from an informativeplace.
Those groups are really goodCan be tricky in the betrayed

(01:04:54):
realm because partners will goand they'll get triggered by
other, like if other people aretalking about their partners not
getting better.
They're not, you know it canfeel like they can come back
from that with like, oh, this isgoing to just never end yeah.
There are some really good.

(01:05:15):
And again I would say MichelleMays is in Virginia, has written
a fantastic book called theBetrayal Bind in which she talks
about there's an injury cyclethat happens for the partner
that is really really hard tocome out of, and she writes

(01:05:38):
beautifully about it.
She offers intensives forpartners.
Smart, she has a whole um Ihope it starts up very soon uh
training for helping partnerskind of come out of that
betrayal bind cycle that's goodthere are um treatments.

(01:05:59):
Most of the treatment centers,like the meadows is the big
treatment center for this typeof work patrick karn many years
ago he did his PhD and sort ofstarted this whole, facing the
shadows and the work that we aretrained in the CSAT world.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
And Meadows is residential inpatient.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Residential, inpatient, has all levels of
care, but they do within thatrealm.
They have it sort of divided upinto all sorts of very specific
pieces for people to get really, really direct care.
There are programs that theyare connected with.
Pep is one of them.

(01:06:43):
It's for professionals.
There is additional mentalhealth issues that need to be
addressed.
So there are places.
There are more places than everIn our particular area, though
on the East Coast.
Here it's really wanting.
Harbor of Grace does havesomebody who does some of this

(01:07:05):
work, but there are also I meanacross the board online so many
groups in intensive.
There's Bloom for Women, whichis Dr Kevin Skinner, who is one
of those people in the CSATworld who's very well known.
Alex Katahakis, out on the WestCoast, has Center for Healthy

(01:07:31):
Sex and groups for men, groupsfor women, intensives, same
thing and she is very much inthe realm of.
She teaches CSAT modules butshe also is in the sex therapy
realm.
So that has has.
Uh, when you were talking aboutthat earlier, saw the my

(01:07:54):
understanding from people who'vedone CSAT work in the got
trained.
In the past there was this sortof.
Well, now we get the addicthealthy again, but we're not
really teaching them how to havehealthy sex.
So we're sort of not reallytaking it to the next level and
that that has expanded now muchmore so.

(01:08:16):
Um, that it's not just about youknow.
We're going to stop here andthen good luck.
We actually want to readdressthose core beliefs.
We want to.
We want to knock the shame outof, we really want to knock the
shame out of sex.
I would like to all together,you know, like, why are we

(01:08:38):
making this such a such a thing?
Um, and then helping couples todo that, to do that repair work?
So we have our disclosureprocess.
Couples to do that, to do thatrepair work so we have our
disclosure process.
It is the sort of accounting ofeverything, and then we go into
kind of the repair process,which involves, like, the

(01:09:02):
partner being able to write animpact letter, the addict being
able to come back, and you know,what we're building is this I'm
listening to you, I'm takingownership of the impact I had on
you, and we're starting here torebuild our communication and
our connection and it's it hasto be a buy-in to.

(01:09:25):
We're leaving that marriagebehind, or that relationship
behind, and we're moving intosomething very different and
again, we don't know what thatlooks like, so that can feel
really scary and at that pointsometimes people will go nope,
I'm out.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
It's the continuum of care.
We see that need that withsubstance use recovery.
When someone is back home andthey're not using and they're
five minutes late from work andthen the spouse or loved one is,
oh, say something, I'm scared,I want to talk.
I don't know how and how theyprocess that same thing with sex
.
Okay, people are going to bevery triggered yeah whether it's

(01:10:04):
during or the whole spectrumthat comes with.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
It can be as simple as because so much pornography
now is being watched on thephone.
Yeah, so if my husband is latefor work, if I look out the
window and I see him in his carand he's on his phone, I don't
know what he's doing.
In fact clon's like the minutemy husband pulls out his phone.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
I get triggered, yeah yeah, I mean that's part of the
continuum of recovery for bothmembers.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
So can you touch upon for the listeners that don't
know what sa or sa is, and thenyou can potentially piggyback
off of it um, yeah, I mean Ithink there's at least five or
seven s fellowships like sexaddicts anonymous uh, sra sla sa
sexualics anonymous spa sex andporn addicts anonymous, uh, and

(01:10:57):
then pa porn addicts.
I mean, there are just so manyuh branches of the tree yeah,
but they're all 12-step base Ithink.
and there's alsoSA Maybe it hasto do with Partners of Sex
Addicts and then Sexanon, whichis like some kind of Al-Anon
version of Sex Addicts Anonymous.

(01:11:17):
But yeah, I don't know thedifferences between all of them,
but I know there's a sense ofcommunity and I think that
really is a key for any kind ofaddicts to reconnect, uh, with
the, with a sense of community,and then finding your true self
in that, you know so that's asmuch as I know.

(01:11:40):
but I also wanted to kind ofmaybe we've already talked about
it that emotional aspect of sexaddiction, you know.
Because when somebody is usingthese behaviors there is
emotional availability beingtaken away and the betrayal does
happen in that you're with yourpartner but then there is no
emotional connection.

(01:12:01):
Emotional availability, butthen reclaiming that can be part
of this recovery journey too,that you can just sense it when
you're with somebody and whenthat person is truly present you
can can feel it especially it'smore important in an intimate
relationship well, there's apiece of that, too, that we
haven't talked about which is abig part of this as well, which

(01:12:21):
is understanding attachment onon both sides.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
So there's a lot of attachment disruption that can
happen.
That lands people in one ofseveral categories, which is the
securely attached person whodoesn't really have that anxiety
about what their partner'sdoing or what's happening with
them.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
They're safe, they're seen, they're soothed
appropriately.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
There's the dismissive avoidant who kind of
does the come here, go awaything.
They want connection, they wantattachment, but they don't
really know how to let it in.
So as soon as it starts to feela little comfortable, they'll
push that away.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
Or close up.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
Yeah, they are definitely the like.
I don't feel like you make timefor me, I don't feel like
you're really present whenyou're here, I don't you know.
And they, they want to be, butthey don't know how to do.
That usually happens very earlyon, um, and then there's the
anxious avoidant, which isreally a come here, go away, and

(01:13:31):
that is the sort of that.
What is that?
Object permanence kind of thing, like.
Like when you're here, evenwhen you're here, I still don't
feel secure and safe.
So I'm asking you all like arewe okay?
Are we okay?
Are you mad at me?
Is everything okay?

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Do you love me?
Do you really love me?

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
Do you really love me ?
Is everything okay?
Do you love me?
And the funny thing is that theanxious avoidant and the
dismissive avoidant tend to beattracted to each other a lot.
So when that comes at thedismissive, they feel very
pressured and it pushes themeven farther away, and so then

(01:14:11):
there's this sort of weird dancethat happens.
And then there's the really funone that I identified myself as
, which is the disorganized,which is a sort of you move in
and out of feeling anxious aboutyour attachments and feeling
just sort of dismissive andavoidant.
It's like binge purge kind of.
You know I love people andgoing all in and then people

(01:14:34):
suck and I don't want to haveanything to do with them.
And all can be roller coastersand all can be roller coasters,
but understanding I mean there'scontroversy there in terms of
like well, you can't reallychange your attachment.
You know personality, whatever.
I don't believe that that'strue at all.
I believe that one of thethings about recovery is that

(01:14:56):
you know you can come in as avery insecure, anxious person
and doing this work really sortof understanding your internal
self, finding community, findingsome sense of connection
spiritually, emotionally, is amental health mandate.

(01:15:20):
We need it.
Whatever that belief is, weneed it, we need to find a way
to connect with it and thatcreates a healthy, solid human
being.
I still don't know who I am asan individual, but I am solid in
myself, like there's no void.
There's no sense of dis-ease,there's no.
I'm a constantly changingindividual, navigating this

(01:15:43):
really fascinating world thatwe're living in and looking for
opportunities to be curious andbe open to whatever, whatever
the universe provides, with alot of faith that you know.
One of my favorite sayings iseverything works out in the end.
If it hasn't worked out, itisn't the end, yeah absolutely.

(01:16:06):
So you know, until I'm gone,it's not the end.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
Two more questions for you, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
So you know, until I'm gone, it's not the end.
Two more questions for you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
As a therapist certified with addiction and
things like that, if and when isit important to have total
abstinence with sex andmasturbation?

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
Well, there's the what I think should happen, and
then there's what my client iscapable of doing.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
Makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
So we've all heard the AA mandate, which really
made me mad in early recovery oflike, don't get in a
relationship for the first year.
Nobody ever told me why Like,why is that a good idea?
What are you supposed to bedoing in that year that you're
not in relationships, you know?

(01:16:52):
And then there'd be all thatfuzzy information but you can
have as much sex as you want,which was like well, wait what?
That doesn't really make anysense.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
Now I'm really confused.
Until I heard, um, until Iheard a tape, uh, from Sandy
beach.
A tape from Sandy Beach, easyto remember, that really talked
about like sort of to your pointearlier about the you know, the
connection and the relationshiplike we need to relate to

(01:17:22):
people.
We need to learn how to relateto people in a new and different
way.
So what I learned in my ownstory because I didn't stay out
of a relationship in the firstyear unless you tell me why it's
not my oppositional defiant wasgoing to do what she was going
to do, and there were things Ihad to learn about that.

(01:17:43):
I was very lucky that I gotinvolved with somebody who was.
He had the gift of desperation,and so I rode his coattails and
he was my higher power, andthat lasted about a year and
some change, um, and out of thatcame a, a defining moment for
me where, for the first time inmy life, I chose myself over the

(01:18:08):
relationship, over therelationship or escapism.
I chose to walk away.
I had always been the victim.
I painted a beautiful victimpicture for myself and my
attachment put me with thoseavoidant people who were never
going to be emotionallyavailable.
And until I hit that emotionalbottom and had that moment of

(01:18:31):
like, you're the constant andit's not.
That was people.
Somewhere in you is pickingthem, is picking the same person
to play out this role wherethey're leaving you and you're
the left behind victim.
And oh, woe is me.
And I sat down and I fourth andfifth stepped that.

(01:18:55):
And then I saw within that,even when a nice person came
into your life, you couldn'treceive them because you needed
to be the victim.
So I would become a ravingasshole and push them away.
But it always had to be themleaving, never me making the

(01:19:19):
choice that like, hey, you knowwhat this really isn't working
out.
I'm not feeling it.
Good luck, let's just part waysBe friends.
It always had to be a drama.
It always had to be megarnering sympathy.
It had to be, you know, to themost dramatic, which was the
last relationship I had.
That you know, I really and Iwas sober.

(01:19:41):
I came out of that going I'minsane and sober.
I stalked this person.
I just did really obsessive,awful, but for the and all of
that in conjunction with, forthe first time in my life, being
in my early twenties, beingresponsible, having my own

(01:20:03):
apartment, having a jet, likelike adulting for the first time
and not really seeing that orgiving myself any credit for
that, because I was so obsessedwith being a victim in this
story and this cycle.
And the story would havecontinued had I not come to this
place.
And I did a lot ofconversations in prayer, going

(01:20:26):
this is what I want to happen.
I want them to walk away fromme and getting back.
That's not going to happen, Ann.
It's time for you to decide whoyou want to be.
Who do you want to be?
And I chose me and I walked awayand I did my own 12-step

(01:20:46):
program focused on relationships, and I saw the pattern.
I saw my pattern really, reallyclearly, and so I did abstain
for a while.
I didn't do a year.
I don't know that specificdeadlines really mean anything.
What's more important to me waswhat was I doing the work, yeah

(01:21:06):
.
What was I looking at, what wasI trying to do in that, before I
embark on something different?
And I and I've had some ofthose conversations with
recently with clients, becausethey're doing that and they're
like, yeah, so I went on thestatement.
Just I didn't feel like there'smuch of a spark and I'm like,
yeah, the boring ones are thehealthy ones, they're nice and

(01:21:33):
they say nice things and theylike they don't, they're not
bringing chaos chaos.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Life will provide life to us.
We don't have to add to it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
They're not bringing the chaos, but but my brain
equated chaos with connectionand big feelings, big hits, big
euphoria.
This must be love.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Yeah, highs are high, lows are low.

Speaker 3 (01:21:56):
I really appreciate the conversation and, as we
began to, the healthy sexualityor like sexuality being part of
who we are, we are sexual being,so anybody who's out there I
guess this is what we do too atRecovery, collective or just
Recovery in general is to findyour authentic self and then
letting that express in multipleways, as an employee, as a

(01:22:18):
father, as a musician.
You know, creative outlet wedidn't talk about that too, but,
like you know, I think aboutsex as, like a creative energy,
it can create babies, you knowso you need to work with it,
because I've seen people whobecome more creative or finding
outlet in creativity, connectingwith others, social events,
finding joy in life and thengoing from there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
That's my key takeaways from this conversation
yeah, that's beautiful andwhat's your take-home message
you want the listeners to leavewith today?

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):
I think that we all fundamentally deserve to be
loved and to feel like we'reworthy of love.
That journey, as you justdescribed it, it's a creative
one, that creativity requiresrisk, but I believe it's a risk

(01:23:10):
worth taking and I think youknow, when you step into that
place and you take that chancethe what do they say the
universe will conspire to giveyou everything that you want,
being careful about what youwant and understanding that that

(01:23:32):
to know who I am, to feel thatconnection with myself, to have
to understand all thosedialectics, all those paradoxes,
all those both ands, is whatallows me to be connected with
you, to understand you, to askmeaningful questions and have a

(01:23:55):
meaningful interaction andrelationship, and I just think
that makes people and life andthe world way more interesting
than all this destructiveness,turned inwards or outwards or in
any direction turned inwards oroutwards, or in any direction.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Well, as we wrap up today's insightful episode, we
want to extend our deepestgratitude to Anne for sharing
her expertise and invaluableperspectives on such a complex
and important topic.
Remember, understandingaddiction, whether it involves
substances or behaviors like sex, is crucial for fostering
empathy for self and others andfinding effective paths to
recovery.
If you found value in thisconversation, please consider

(01:24:34):
subscribing to our podcast.
Writing a review on platformslike Apple certainly helps.
And don't forget, season two ofthe podcast will end in July
and we'll take a break in Augustbefore starting season three in
September.
During the break, we'll beworking on some exciting
e-courses that we know ourlisteners will certainly find
beneficial, so stay tuned.
Thank you for joining us onthis recovery.

(01:24:54):
Remember, understanding andaddressing addiction is a
collective effort.
Share this episode with otherswho might benefit from it and
let's continue to build acompassionate, informed
community together.
Take care and be well.

Speaker 3 (01:25:06):
My name is Luke and this is Zal.
Thank you all for listening andthank you, anne, for joining us
.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
Thank you all for listening and thank you, Anne,
for joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):
Thank you for inviting me See you next time.

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