April 14, 2024 • 55 mins
The internet is a minefield of information, but it is also rife with misinformation, and when it comes to voice teaching, as an industry, we are not excluded from the bombardment of information. Whether it’s a YouTube video, an Instagram post, a TikTok video, or a post on a social media forum, there is an inundation of misinformation regarding how to sing, voice training techniques, and singing teachers and coaches themselves showing us how they believe it should be done. We are in an unregulated industry, and anyone can claim to have discovered the holy grail of vocal greatness. Therefore, this week on A Voice and Beyond, I asked Chris Johnson to return to the show as our special guest and voice geek, to spill the tea and shed the truth about some of the most widely spread myths that apply to singing.
Chris Johnson is an internationally acclaimed singing teacher and highly experienced vocal coach, who has been trained in vocal manual therapy, massage, and myofascial release, and his training perspective respects the whole self. He is the founder of the singing teacher training organization 'Teach Voice’, and co-founder of one of the most popular podcasts for singers, 'The Naked Vocalist’. Chris has also had a professional performance career and truly understands the demands on today’s singers, and the vital role voice training plays in developing and sustaining healthy vocal production.
This is a two-part episode, and in this Part 1 episode, Chris is going to address myths around the role of a singing teacher versus a vocal coach, tension, placement, and the role of the breath in the hierarchy of singing. It is a fascinating and informative episode, and Part 2 will be released in three weeks.
This episode is proudly sponsored by The CCM Vocal Pedagogy Institute, offering comprehensive training for singing teachers and voice specialists. Dive deeper into the science and art of voice pedagogy with their unique programs. Visit www.ccminstitute.com to learn more.
In this Episode
- 00:00 - Sponsored Ad: The CCM Vocal Pedagogy Institute
- 03:00 - Navigating the Sea of Misinformation in Voice Teaching
- 06:22 - Myth 1: Singing Teacher vs. Vocal Coach – Understanding the Difference
- 10:19 - Myth 2: The Role and Reality of Tension in Singing
- 17:10 - The Evolution of Musical Styles and Singers’ Adaptations
- 23:26 - Myth 3: Is Shouting Really Unhealthy for Singers?
- 28:57 - Debunking Vocal Myths: Breathiness and Whispering in Singing
- 34:29 - Myth 4: Does Singing Truly Start with the Breath?
Find Chris Johnson Online
For more, go to drmarisaleenaismith.com/159.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (00:00):
If you're a singing teacher or
(00:02):
voice specialist with a keendesire to enrich your knowledge
in an inclusive, supportive andcaring learning environment, the
CCM vocal pedagogy Instituteoffers a unique nine day in
person training programme thatcombines science informed
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(01:13):
courses include graduate creditfrom Shenandoah University. So
if you're ready to join a warmand welcoming community that
unites singers and teachers,irrespective of skill set and
experience, enrol now and jointhe 2024 cohort at the CCM vocal
(01:37):
pedagogy Institute. To learnmore, simply visit CCM
institute.com.
It's Marisa Lee here, and I'm soexcited to be sharing today's
interview round episode withyou. In these episodes, our
(01:59):
brilliant lineup of guests willinclude healthcare
practitioners, voice educators,and other professionals who will
share their stories, knowledgeand experiences within their
specialised fields to empoweryou to live your best life.
Whether you're a member of thevoice, community, or beyond your
(02:23):
voice is your unique gift. It'stime now to share your gift with
others develop a positivemindset and become the best and
most authentic version ofyourself to create greater
impact. Ultimately, you can takecharge, it's time for you to
(02:46):
live your best life. It's timenow for a voice and beyond. So
without further ado, let's go totoday's episode.
The Internet is a minefield ofinformation, but it is also rife
(03:06):
with misinformation. And when itcomes to voice teaching, as an
industry, we are not excludedfrom the bombardment of
misinformation. Whether it's aYouTube video, and Instagram
post, a tick tock video or apost on a social media forum.
(03:29):
There is an inundation ofmisinformation regarding how to
sing voice training techniques,and singing teachers and coaches
themselves, showing us how theybelieve it should be done. We
are in an unregulated industry,and anyone can claim to have
(03:51):
discovered the holy grail tovocal greatness. Therefore, this
week on a voice and beyond. Iasked Chris Johnson to return to
the show as our special guestand voice geek to spill the tea
and shed the truth about some ofthe most widely spread myths
(04:14):
that apply to singing. ChrisJohnson is an internationally
acclaimed singing teacher andhighly respected vocal coach who
has been trained in ManualTherapy Massage, myofascial
release, and his trainingperspective respects the whole
(04:35):
self. He is the founder ofsinging teacher training
organisation, teach voice and cofounder of one of the most
popular podcasts for singers,the naked vocalist. Chris has
also had a professionalperformance career and truly
(04:55):
understands the demands onsingers today and the vital role
voice training plays indeveloping and sustaining
healthy vocal production. Thisis a two part episode. And in
this part one episode, Chris isgoing to do some myth busting
(05:17):
around topics such as the roleof singing teacher versus vocal
coach tension, the role of thebreath, and voice placement. It
is a fascinating and mostinformative episode, and part
two will be released in theweeks to come. So without
(05:42):
further ado, let's go to today'sepisode
Welcome to a voice and beyond wehave Chris Johnson in the house.
How are you Chris?
Chris Johnson (06:02):
I'm very well, thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:04):
You're giving yourself a cheer. I like
that.
Chris Johnson (06:07):
I am. Yeah, I need to create some vibes
because you know, I can't hearthe audience out there. So I
have to create me own.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:14):
I'll give you a clap.
Chris Johnson (06:15):
Okay, thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:16):
I'll give How about a round of
applause.
Chris Johnson (06:19):
Thank You
Unknown (06:21):
It was round.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:22):
It was Crockett. Yes. Now, Chris, we're
going to be very serioustonight, we have quite an
episode that were planned forthe audience. Because we're
going to be doing some mythbusting. People are literally
being bombarded with informationat present. There's all the
(06:44):
forums on social media, everyonehas an opinion. And all the
opinions are so different. Sofar, so varied. And then you
have YouTube. And my singers areoften tempted to go and have a
look on YouTube. And they comeback with the most weird and
(07:05):
wonderful things. And I go, Whatare you doing? Oh, I saw this on
YouTube. And
Chris Johnson (07:12):
yeah, something about YouTube, is I do get
brought back down to Earth withsometimes with how the industry
works. And so it's not unusualfor me to say work with a client
who might be on a major label.
Yes. Well, you know, somebodywell known in a tour or
something like that. And thefirst time we meet each other,
it would be Hey, so what are youworking on? Do you have a vocal
(07:33):
warmup at the moment or regime?
And they say, yeah, yeah, we'vegot one. And even if they're
like a high end singer, theamount of times they say, I just
get it all from YouTube. Justget it all from YouTube. A high
end singer. Yeah. So evensomebody who's like, you know,
selling, like in the hundreds ofmillions of in the hundreds of
(07:54):
millions of streams on Spotify,is that the warm up will be are
quite often from YouTube. Soyou've got I've got to remind
myself that actually, sometimesit doesn't matter what level of
Korea that person is at YouTubeisn't it is actually one of the
main resources for people to getto get their warm ups. And so
(08:16):
that means if you're on YouTube,when you're spreading great
stuff, you're gonna do good inthe world. But if you're on
YouTube spreadingdisinformation. Yes, it could
permeate out quite badly intointo all areas. I
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (08:30):
only have one comment to make on that
these people that are sellingmillions of their souls. Can't
they afford a vocal teacher?
The record companies cashing inthat much these people can't go
and get a proper paying, likevocal coach.
Chris Johnson (08:51):
Yeah, I don't know. I think it's I think it's
just maybe I think there's somany factors, isn't it?
Sometimes it's like, you know,I'm a natural talent. So I want
to preserve that some people sayespecially managers often say,
Oh, don't go with a vocal coach,because they will take every
ounce of individuality from you.
Yeah, and I can understand whythat's been said, of course, in
the past completely, or it mightjust be not really see the value
(09:14):
or don't don't do anything untilsomething goes wrong, which is
really the biggest one, isn'tit? So
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (09:20):
yeah, don't fix what isn't broken?
Chris Johnson (09:24):
Yeah.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (09:24):
Yeah, essentially. Okay, Chris. So,
you're an internationallyacclaimed singing teacher and a
highly experienced vocal coach.
So we're gonna go straight toMyth number one, and why I have
you doing all this myth busting,is because not only have you had
this massive career in theteaching realm, but you also had
(09:48):
a performance Korea, youapproach your teaching,
respecting the whole selfbecause you've trained in
different modalities.
And you're a geek,
Chris Johnson (10:01):
thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:02):
You are a total like, true proper voice
geek with a sense of humour,which is very unusual.
Chris Johnson (10:12):
I'm ticking some boxes there. Thank you very
much. Oh
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:14):
my gosh, you tick just about all of them.
Chris Johnson (10:17):
That's my that's my aim.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:19):
I'll find one that's unticked as we
go.
Chris Johnson (10:23):
I'm gonna Yeah, I'm gonna trick you into
believing I am a blemish Willis,work of art?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:29):
Oh, look at you. Of course you are. Okay,
so let's go to Myth number one.
And I think you can answer thisbecause you are an acclaimed
singing teacher, as well asvocal coach. Now, some tip boys,
teachers pull themselves vocalcoaches, while others claim to
(10:50):
be singing teachers exclusively.
And they say that they don't doany vocal coaching. So is there
a point in the training of asinger that the to do
Unknown (11:05):
meet? Yeah, I
Chris Johnson (11:07):
think there has to be doesn't there, it would be
quite awkward in a lesson when aparticular need arises that
would require you to switch fromteacher which is if we just kind
of clarify, I guess, singingteaching being that you are able
to instruct somebody on how touse their voice to achieve a
functional goal. That could beanything from extended range,
(11:28):
you know, the, I guess thetechnical tickbox have that. But
then the coach, the coach wouldusually help the singer make
decisions whereby they use thoseskills that they have, in order
to deliver songs in differentways. And that could be
stylistically it could bemelodically artistically. So
(11:49):
they're the distinctions and itwould be quite awkward. Then if
in the middle of a session whenyou're done teaching somebody
some range stuff. They're like,Oh, how should I deliver this
song? And you're like, oh, no, Idon't do that. And I know,
sometimes that might be thecase. Because it might be I'm
really just a classical teacher,I don't really do r&b. And that
would be cool. But I stillbelieve that there's going to be
(12:11):
some opinion delivered by thatteacher to go, or maybe I think
you should try it like this ortry it like that. So exactly.
Yeah, it's gonna be very hard tokeep a hard border between
singing teacher and vocal coach.
Yes, yeah. 100%.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (12:24):
And I claim to be both. There are
times where I need to have thesinging teacher hat on. And
there are times where I need tobe a vocal coach, because we're
working on repertoire, where wemay need to make style choices,
or I have to help them makedecisions in the lesson as to
(12:44):
the way they want to deliver asong, or what the correct accent
is for something. I mean,there's so many things that we
do as vocal coaches. Andsometimes the to do kind of
marry up almost when you areworking on repertoire. And you
use the repertoire to teach themsomething functional. Or you use
(13:12):
the repertoire to do thetechnical training as well,
which I do at times to almost doa two in one to multitask
without them realising that I'mmultitasking. I've got both hats
on at the same time throughoutthat one song. Yeah,
Chris Johnson (13:30):
agreed, agreed.
And I don't know how you feltabout this in your career. But I
think really just because of theway I grew as a singer, I think
and I think I grew most of mystylistic skills, fairly late on
in my singing career. early partof my singing career, I was
actually singing the same genreof music all of the time. I also
wasn't teaching in a very variedenvironment. So I was quite
(13:51):
uncomfortable with being a vocalcoach in the beginning. I just
wanted to teach the technique.
You're the artist, you can youcan do all that. But where I
actually ended up learning froma lot of different stylistic
singers actually ended up youknow, baptism of fire. I ended
up teaching a part of a diplomacourse where I had to teach
(14:11):
style and improvisation havingreally not really taught it in a
structured way, but rather justdelivered it as part of like,
you know, oh, you're in a rockband this week as a function
singer. So you've got a soundRocky, you know, you know, all
these bits and pieces, butteaching it in a more structured
way. Yes. That was stress andanxiety inducing to do that for
(14:32):
a year. But it didn't have toteach me a lot. I mean, oh my
goodness, I learned a lot. Andthen I ended up actually singing
different styles myself, aspeople would ask me to do more
varied things out of the band.
Yes. From you know, throughmusical theatre to slightly more
very poppy stuff rock stuffsold, which was I was always
into, so I became much morecomfortable with being a vocal
(14:53):
coach over time and learningpentatonic scales, and
musicality, like that's such aGreat tool to kind of dabble
yourself into being becomingmore of a coach. Yes, and you
don't, you just need to be ableto know the scales, it's
actually really, it's reallyrewarding to show somebody how
to navigate themselves aroundthings like pentatonic and blues
(15:13):
scales, and then then createtheir own melodies. It's
wonderful. And so I've reallyactually started to enjoy the
coach coaching. And when someonecomes in with a song and says,
Oh, I'd love to figure out somenew ways to do this. It's just
so fun. I love it. When peoplecome in to say that you just get
on the piano, start faffingaround few ideas, creativity
(15:33):
starts flowing. Oh, it's so fun.
Yes,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (15:40):
I love that side of it. And I feel that
I started out as a vocal coach.
Because my career journey isdifferent to most. I always say
my career started when I wasfive years old, when I started
listening to the music. And, youknow, coming from a migrant
family, we were listening toItalian folk songs and arias, we
(16:01):
have Mario lanza playing there,my brother belonged to a record
club. So we would have pop,rock, blues, r&b, everything.
And I was listening to thismusic on a daily basis. So my
ear is really well attuned toall the style elements and every
(16:27):
nuance in so many of thesestyles. And I feel really at
home in that vocal coachingarena. And I if something's not
right, in terms of style, anddelivery, it's like, you know,
because we do have to beauthentic to style. Yeah, you
(16:50):
can improvise, but the boneshave to be there. You have to
respect the integrity of thatmusic.
Chris Johnson (17:03):
Yeah, I think that's a big subject, isn't it?
Yes. I think I saw Brian BrianGill talk about that. It may be
even been on this podcast.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (17:11):
I have had Brian Yeah,
Chris Johnson (17:13):
where he's talking about, you know, you can
sing any style you want. Andit's like, that's not quite
true. And I really, I reallyresonated with what you said
about that. Because at the endof the day, you have to live
with something deeply for a longtime. And yes, and it's fair
enough, you know, when it wouldlike to say in the world of
musical theatre when the when ifyou've been a musical theatre
(17:34):
train singer, but you have tosing in a bluesy style show or
then you have to sing in a poppystyle show. Yes, they can make
bluesy and poppy style sounds.
But blues and pop fans wouldstill notice it as not really
being blues or pop wouldn't buyit. No, they wouldn't buy it and
it's no offence that I mean, thejob you're doing is good for the
is good for the theatre, but itdoesn't make you a blues singer.
(17:55):
No, absolutely. And that's theconfusion I think people are
having is like, yeah, I can doblues. I even saw on a forum one
time. It was a it was aclassical singer who's saying
I'm comfortable with singing allstyles, but then what it
transpired was, well, yeah, ofcourse I sound like Pavarotti
when I do them. But I can stillsing them all. And what they
were doing was confusing singingthe style. Yes. With singing the
(18:17):
pitches. And the words. Yes,that doesn't make you it doesn't
make you a blues singer. Or, youknow, or rock singer. I can sing
all the high notes, but theywanted to preserve their own
sound. And they didn't realisethat. Well, that doesn't mean
you sing the genre, then itwould be
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (18:34):
like me singing classical music and
sounding like I'm a rock singerat heart. You can see in
classical music, it doesn'twork. I don't know what I'm
doing. I can mimic the sound.
But is it a good sound? Or thethe accepted? does it fall
within the ideals of that belcanto? The Eurocentric western
(18:58):
classical sound? No. I soundweird. Absolutely weird. But no,
I think, you know, it'simportant that we have that
sound, whatever sound we'reteaching, it's almost like it
(19:19):
has to be in our bodies. We dohave to immerse ourselves in
that music and continue to doso. Because our, you know, the
landscape of music styles thatfall in CCM, especially is
growing at a phenomenal rate.
There's new sub style, there'sstyles coming out there was I
(19:44):
mean, I've heard of this bedroompop dark pop. There was another
pop that came out the other dayand what is this? Like? Do us
guys just make this up? Or is ita real thing?
Chris Johnson (19:58):
Nobody here knows it. Pop is starting to catch up
with rock as far as the amountof sub genres that are within
it. You know, rock used to belike, there's so many little
categories of rock or subgenres. But yeah, Dream pop is
another one that I work forquite a bit. I think that was
it. Yeah, that's been around fora while, actually. Yeah. So
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:19):
when the first one came in and said, Oh,
I sing dark pop to turn thelights out.
Unknown (20:29):
This one came.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:33):
I think bedroom pop. And I said, Do you
Have you tried the dining room?
Oh, my goodness. Dream pop. Ijust want to say maybe you want
to try seeing what you're awake.
Chris Johnson (20:52):
Today do they look at you with a blank
expression?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:54):
No, in my students get to know me
quicks. Okay.
Chris Johnson (20:59):
Yeah, I try my dad jokes on people as well. And
they I sometimes get a laugh andsometimes get a deadpan. Yeah.
I'll say anyway, though.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (21:08):
Exactly.
You know what we have toentertain people while we're
teaching? Yep. Yeah. Okay, let'sgo to Myth number two. Tension
is bad. So is there a time whenit is good for us? Yes.
Chris Johnson (21:26):
Absolutely. Okay.
Yeah. Tension is part of theintegrity of something, isn't
it? And certainly, as we areliving beings full of tissue,
fascia, all the things that holdus together, there's a tension
balance that allows things towork optimally. So the problem
with tension is in the name oferadicating all feelings of any
(21:49):
muscle effort at all. Singersand and coaches and advice
that's out there on theinternet, would lead people to
do exercises that just turn thembasically into flaccid things,
floppy flaccid voices that haveno interest or no dynamic. It's
(22:09):
just and they try and sing withthat and the confusion out there
is lost between sort of tensionand tenseness or, you know, I
often make the distinctionbetween tension and tenseness
does it feel tense to the pointtense is normally it's not
comfortable. And it's inhibitingthe movement of other things.
(22:32):
It's putting a tenseness intothe into the system rather than
a tension. Because at the end ofthe day, the vocal the vocal
folds raise pitch by applyingtension. That's how you raise
pitch. The larynx needs to moveup and down from muscles
becoming active. Yes. And inrock singing, say and really
high rain singing. Singers gointo what would look like
(22:54):
hypertension. So a lot oftension in the muscles or
activity. But it's it's anecessary hyperactivity if you
like to achieve the goal. Butit's it's short lived. And we
have things like cool downprocedures whereby you can go
off last and it's nice to beable to go flaccid, if you'd
(23:15):
like to let's not carry on withthat word too much.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (23:18):
No, I don't want to be.
Unknown (23:21):
Don't ever make me flustered in my life.
Chris Johnson (23:26):
When we have conversations with singers only
really need to say that wordonce before it just hits home.
But yeah, having cool downs andyou know, ways to reset Yes. Is
then necessary. hyperfunctionis, is there not a problem. And
I think we should talk aboutthings like sometimes the sport
analogy is good, because at theend of the day, every sport has
(23:49):
its impact. It has its necessaryimpacts. But every sport has its
way to recover. Every sport hasits treatments, every sport has
its injuries. And I don't thinkwe can expect singers to go out
into the wide variety of genresand stay completely within utter
(24:11):
comfort the whole time everybodyis going to be stretching the
boundary at some point. And it'swhether it's whether they know
how to approach over stretchingthemselves in the right way,
like not when you're wreckedfrom the day before. Right? You
choose Plan B on those days. Butyou know, if you're if you're
really if you're feeling reallygood and you know your voice has
(24:32):
been great for a while if youoverstretch yourself a bit. It
doesn't cost you so much. It'snot that we have to worry. It's
when singers can't see thegathering problems of doing that
too often and too much wherethen things do go from into
tenseness that doesn't resolveday to day and comes along with
(24:52):
different stuff. So I think it'simportant to make that
distinction between tension andtenseness.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (24:58):
Yes. So What about then? When people
blame tension for somethinggoing wrong with the sound? Or
should I say they the singerruns into problems? I'm trying
to train myself out of sayingwords like Right and Wrong, Good
and bad. So what if a singerbrands into some kind of
(25:21):
challenge that is being causedby tenseness? Usually, it's
either tongue root, that's a bigone with some laryngeal stuff,
or it could even be somethinggoing on with the upper body
like the shoulders. When do wedo we still want that to be
(25:41):
flaccid?
Chris Johnson (25:42):
The thing about tenseness is is about how it
arrives. So let's let's put itthis way, the way I tend to work
with teachers and also with withsingers is that we have to look
at symptom or cause sometimesbecause it's not always clear.
And when it comes to when itcomes to tension, let's say
tension creates a balance. Thenervous system knows that that's
(26:06):
why if you have an injuredmuscle, say on one side of your
body section in your leg, othermuscles will upgrade their
efforts to compensate for thatinjured muscle or missing
function. Right. So you can'tyou can't stop that unless you
just lay in your bed, you'regonna have to compensate to
carry on with life. And ifpeople are like, Okay, I've got
(26:28):
to get rid of the tenseness inthat muscle. It's like, well,
you can't until you're recoveredfrom the injury, unless you just
lay in your bed all day. And sosingers are the same singers.
Sometimes, let's say they mayhave had some idea about singing
that might not quite fit withtheir physiology. Let's say they
don't really use their chestvoice very much because it's a
pain in the bum. So they use alighter register and use
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (26:53):
what you say I'm sorry, I'm Australian, I
have a wicked humour. You see.
Unknown (27:01):
They don't use their chest. Because it's a pain in
the bum. I'm thinking that'swhat that's not singing.
Chris Johnson (27:10):
We can get Chris This is very convoluted. Okay,
because it's a pain in the neck,way back pain in the neck. But
when somebody doesn't use somekind of important function, I
think to keep the voice stableand to involve the whole the
whole vocal mechanism insomething that needs to be
(27:31):
there. The nervous system picksup that slack and it and it can
add tension into the system fromknee jerk constrictions and
tightness says, Yes, I'm seeinga speck in spend and teachers as
well can spend years trying toget rid of this tenseness not
realising it absolutely needs tobe there for that singer to
(27:53):
function. And so again, if welook at tension, if tension is
looked at at its basic, like onits basic level, that's tense, I
need to relax it. It doesn'treally acknowledge the reasons
why that that is there. And ifit constantly returns, I implore
people to look at the idea thatthat tension or tenseness there
(28:14):
looks like it's probablynecessary, because something
else underlying for stability orfunction is missing. And that
may be something that isphysiological something that is
not necessarily chosen. Or itcould be conceptual, which is
the singer has an idea ofsinging that actually creates an
issue within the voice. Yes. Soyeah, when we get into tension
(28:38):
and tenseness, we have to getinto is it a compensation or not
for a conceptual orphysiological issue? And that's
why we can't just we can't justget rid of it. It's not a thing
to just get rid of. It's a thingto explore.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (28:52):
Yes. And sometimes it can be a
manipulation.
Chris Johnson (28:56):
So how do you mean? Well,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (28:57):
I had a student that came to me, I'm
still teaching her she's inthird year now. But she had a
bleat. Her vibrato was reallyreally, really quick. She
sounded like a lamb, like, but alamb. That was on steroids. And,
(29:19):
you know, and I was trained thatif someone has a very, very fast
vibrato or a very slow vibrato,there's some sort of tension
somewhere. So I was just tryingto figure out how I was going to
calm down this vibrato. And oneday, I was at the piano, and I
just got her to sing Gah, on afive note descending scale. So
(29:42):
God Gaga, Gaga, right? Novibrato, and I've turned around
and said, there's no vibrato, orno, but I don't need to use
vibrato. I said why do you feelthe need to use use it in your
singing, all because it's notsinging unless I have a Broto.
(30:08):
Okay, and she was manipulatingand that manipulation, whatever
she was doing to achieve adesired sound that she thought
was a good sound was creatingthe tension.
Chris Johnson (30:22):
Hmm. I love that.
Yeah.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (30:25):
So I think sometimes then I have
another one at the moment, whenshe does melismas she is the
veins are popping out but likethe laryngeal tension and get
her to sing on a straight tone,it is very clear. So she is
manipulating to create thoselisteners. So it's very
(30:49):
interesting because she feelsthat she sounds amazing. Yeah.
Chris Johnson (30:54):
And Jack comes into something which is quite, I
think important is is you knowhow the brain works in terms of
making tasks easier. Like if forsomeone to do melismas you know,
parts of that they they let offthe nervous system patterns take
over because they've sang thatstyle and those patterns
routinely. So there is someletting go and letting the
(31:15):
nervous system take over themovement just like we'd let the
nervous system take overwalking, you know, it's works on
a predictive way. But if we haveto move if we have to move each
leg as we go, obviously, thatwould take ages. So riffs tend
to be slower when people dothat. Yes. Yeah. And also
they're more tense because youcan't just let it run fluidly on
(31:38):
its on its its predictive kindof function in the nervous
system. So it's like, yeah, Ithink that's that's really
important to get people out ofconsciously managing every
aspect of movement in theirvoice. Yeah, just like an ice
skater. Let's go to momentum.
You know, you don't you justhave to let go and take
momentum. And singers need totake momentum in the same way. I
(31:58):
think they need to let go to themomentum of singing and see
actually what, what forces theycan't feel or control actually
carry them quickly. It's like,oh, it takes a lot of trust to
do that.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (32:12):
Yes. And it's like a dancer executing
pirouettes. Sure. You know, theyhad the preparation in the play.
But then once they're in thatspin, you just let yourself go.
I know my daughter used to beable to do six. Wow. And she's
down to three now. Or four.
Right? But that's anotherexample of just letting go. And
(32:35):
I liked what you call thatmanaging. I call it
manipulating. Right. Okay. Ilike, what did you call it
managing? Yeah,
Chris Johnson (32:50):
I just call it managing managing your voice,
which is just not not wonderful.
But if you learn something brandnew, you do go into management
mode. And then you experience ita couple of times, and then you
gradually have to start lettingit go to Okay, once you've
experienced it a few times, andin different ways you can build
the brain's ability to predictthe outcome of when you next do
(33:13):
it, the brain knows, it knowsit. And if there's a prediction,
there's an experience of it,and, and especially in different
environments you've done onstage, you've done it in the
practice room, you've done itwhilst moving and standing
still. You've done it whilstwhiny or Wolfie or some other
way, you know, you build thatPrediction Engine. And then you
can let go of managing becauseprediction takes over, which is
(33:35):
really, really cool. So you dohave to sometimes switch to
management mode when things aretricky. Yes. But singers often
never get out of it. Theycontrol it, stay with control,
and then they live like thatforever. And then they always
come to me with the limitationsthat are usually quite similar.
Yes.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (33:56):
Okay, we're going to move on to Myth
number three, which is shoutingis unhealthy. Okay, so I'm just
gonna start here with I mean,one of the main reasons children
have nodules is because they'reshouting in the playground. So
(34:19):
is it specifically for aparticular age group that they
shouldn't be shouting or isshouting unhealthy or healthy
for everybody? I
Chris Johnson (34:29):
think it's good to talk about this because in
the name of raising your voice,so yes, raising your voice in
certain ways will add moreimpact onto your voice. And so
again, done often and a lot.
Yes, there can be abrasions andinjuries that happen on the
voice. But once again,especially from the world of
singing, that information istaken, and it's taken to never
(34:52):
raising your voice. So it's, itjust gets completely distorted
into that's unhealthy. It's abit like tension as well, all
tension is bad, it comes alongwith these things. But it's
misunderstood. And so everyonegoes for no tension. The amount
of singers I've I've met who go,I just try never to raise my
voice ever. And what they don'trealise is that sort of, that
(35:14):
sort of atrophies your abilityas a singer. So we weren't born
without with friggin phones. So,you know, we didn't start our
evolutionary journey being ableto phone each other. We didn't
have to call across mountains,we did have to, yes, you know,
when when we when we would workon like, you know, I guess
farming, early farming, it usedto be like, catch the goat, you
(35:37):
know, I mean, if the goatsrunning off, get the go, or
there's a
Unknown (35:45):
flabby goat.
Chris Johnson (35:49):
So we have all that, and it's, and I believe
that part of my job for singersis to teach them how to be loud,
I teach them how to, I guess, Iguess sometimes shouting, yes,
it's not a great word. But Iteach them to use their voice at
volumes safely again, becauseand they're absolutely petrified
(36:10):
of doing it. But for the singersto for their robustness for them
to understand, oh, actually,this can be supported by
resonance. When I approach it,it doesn't have to be a crunch
onset that goes, Yeah, like thatkind of thing. It doesn't have
to work like that, it can feelactually very easy. And then the
(36:30):
volume generated is like, whoa,wow, that's pretty big. That's
pretty big. And we're not goingto do it all day long. That's a
one minute part of your warmupto check back in with your
ability to produce volume. Andthe volume you're going to
produce in your singing probablyis going to be, you know, two
thirds of that, or something.
And it's going to containvibrato, which might make it
(36:51):
even just a little less intense.
So I think as a bunch of singersand how we teach singers, their
different functional facilities,calling is a function that's
absolutely necessary. And we andwe evolved with it. So if we're
scared to use our voice in aloud way, we were there. And
we've seen this one a belt, butthey don't want to raise their
(37:13):
voice in their life. And so itbecomes a constant argument in
their brain, their body, andthey never really achieve
healthy belting. Because theycan't really call for a taxi or
something.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (37:25):
What I found really interesting,
sometimes it can be associatedwith culture. Yeah, for example,
I come from an Italian family.
So we all had to raise ourvoices to be heard. You know,
and, and plus two, we use thefull range of the voice. We'd
speak up high, and then we speakdown here. And like the movie,
(37:48):
The voice was moving in dynamicsand pitch all the time, because
that's how we express ourselves.
were highly excitable. So whenat five years old, I was
listening to that music. It wasnot a big deal for me to be
loud. I was belting. I didn'tknow it was a thing till I
(38:10):
started university 15 years ago,but I had belted my whole life
by being loud, I was hittingmoney notes, because nobody told
me I couldn't. Yeah, no one hadplaced that limitation on me and
I had a fully fledged Korea. AndI was loud when I needed to be
(38:30):
loud, and then never heard myvoice. But I don't think I was
in my head about it. And I thinkthat's the biggest difference is
when you get in your head aboutsomething, or someone places a
limitation on you, whether it'syou, you know, you create this
limiting belief or someone elseimposes limitations on you. I
(38:54):
think that's when we run intostripe and I think belting is
one of those things. Yeah, youknow, everyone has such a
different opinion about belting.
And to be honest, I just don'tknow what the problem is. I
truly don't
Chris Johnson (39:12):
know. No, it's hard. I think it's just the
confusion, isn't it between isthe causation correlation.
thing. If someone if someonebelts a lot, and then they get
an injury, that it's alwayslinked by the purists as being
that's the reason why that's thereason why 100% You know, and
it's just it's done so often.
It's actually quite irritating,isn't it?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (39:36):
I get irritated. I do get irritated.
Highly irritated. Yes. Yeah.
Because people don't realisethat we all have alive and
classical singers get injuriesalso, but no one knows about
them. It's only that a lot ofthe singers that do sustain
vocal injuries are high pro fouland they're in the media. Yeah.
Chris Johnson (40:02):
And I actually had a workshop with a really
great speech therapist calledOliver. Oliver Frischknecht came
in. I'm really proud of that, bythe way. He came in and he
actually he actually led withJonas Kaufmann, the is a
baritone, I think, a really,really good opera singer, one of
(40:22):
the most famous I think, inrecent times, and he's had two
rather notable vocal meltdowns,and one of them was he was
singing with Wagnerian singerswho are well known for being
incredibly loud. They were thefirst bunch of sort of singers,
I think, to be able to sing sostrong that they could sing over
the newly 65 piece orchestra orwhatever. Because always just
(40:46):
just grew and grew and grew overthe whatever century it was,
just got just got bigger andmore grand. So the singers had
to get more and more robust tojust even handle it. So
Wagnerian singers are known forbeing really robust. So and
Jonas Kaufman was very honest,in saying I was basically around
all these Wagnerian singers whowere banging. I tried to
(41:09):
compete, and I absolutely ruinedmy void. Like, it went that was
it gone. And he was like, I'mgonna, I'm gonna give up there.
But what I love about that is hecame back from it, obviously.
But he was so open with it. Hewas so cool. He really let that
whole stigma sort of come down alittle bit about classical and
(41:30):
even the most revered singersnow they they get it and they
get in situations that we alldo. I'm impressed by them. I'm
trying to compete with them. Iwill try and sing like them. Oh,
no. That's not what my voice is.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (41:42):
Exactly.
Imagine how many goats Wagneriansinger could get? Yeah.
Chris Johnson (41:49):
They were they were shepherds in a previous
life
Unknown (41:57):
so many guards there'd be no goats
Chris Johnson (41:59):
left. that would that would that would be our
thing for today. For this week.
Yeah, we're gonna do the get theget the go exercise will be just
one minute. Okay.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (42:08):
Can we create a get the goat exercise?
By the
Chris Johnson (42:13):
way? There's not there's not the vibrato singer
again? Is it? Because this couldgo could go wrong again.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (42:21):
Love it?
Yeah. Okay, so let's visit theother end of the spectrum, then.
What about whispering?
whispering,
Chris Johnson (42:31):
I think whispering can be quite
challenging, of course, on thevoice. Because whispering is one
of those things that obviouslyhas a very low volume and a very
great difficulty carrying overnoise. So the problem with
whispering is, is that if youwere to do it, say quite a lot,
the amount of sort of hyperfunction that can put in the
(42:51):
voice like when people whisperthey have to have to go like
really high. Like they have totry and boost these high
frequencies in whispering, andthat puts a rather a lot of
genuine tenseness into thesystem to try and get some
output to compete. Sowhispering, is very challenging
in that sense. Yes. Whereas, youknow, it's not as challenging as
(43:13):
calling because calling is sovibrant. Often people need to
realise that, oh, I don't needto make half as much effort to
make that loud. There is noopportunity to do that. And
whispering, you have to make itvery high effort to make it
work. Yes, constantly. So that'swhy I think they're whispering
is sort of more silently,dangerous, you know, in that
(43:37):
sense,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (43:38):
and I associate whispering almost with
breathiness. And I was at theGrammys, a couple of months ago,
Chris Johnson (43:46):
I knew you would find an opportunity to say that.
Come on, it's the first one I'vewaited. No, it's amazing.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (43:52):
I've waited a little while before I
dropped the G word. So theperson I could not listen to was
Billy Eilish, right, because Iunderstand that the song that
she sang in the Barbie movie waswritten at a point in the movie
(44:13):
where Barbie was showing all hervulnerabilities. And that
breathiness was for impact andto portray where the character
was at right in that moment intime. But I was thinking to
myself, and I was singing,sitting with another singing
teacher who works with our highprofile singers. I was thinking
(44:36):
How sustainable is that? Surelyshe doesn't sing like that on
tour.
Chris Johnson (44:41):
Yeah, I mean, one thing we can't ignore is you
know, I said about the thesports analogy. Some sports have
their own impacts. Some sportsneed their own cooldowns and
breathy singers. They dotypically get their voices dry
and tired. And like you've justheard into that there is that
when you're on a on a heavyschedule, let's say you're on a
(45:04):
tour and the beauty about thething about Billy Eilish being
on tour is her sound in her earwill be absolutely fantastic.
Unbelievable. So her ability tonot over push her voice I guess
on tour in that breathy way, itwill be great because then that,
you know, the sound crew willmake it sound incredible. Yes.
But if you take that breath, yousinger and you put them in the
(45:26):
open mic night with no monitors,terrible sounds, a sound crew or
person that doesn't give a shit.
And really loud drummer, theystruggle so bad. And so the
tendency for breathy singers tothen force the breathy voice to
compete with that, and so theycan hear themselves. They are
out there in a lot of danger ofthat. And I think that's why
(45:50):
breathy singers also, it is aless efficient way of singing.
It does require you to probablypractice clear voice in your
offseason or in your time offmuch more often. But that often
gets missed out. And thechallenges of the stage. It
claims a lot of breathy voices,it puts them in the graveyard
because they just don't get theenvironment that someone like
(46:14):
Billy Eilish would get wherethey they can accommodate that
lack of output with crackingsound and output in the system.
And that's why we havemicrophones. So with
microphones, it can besustainable and with the right
sort of balance work on on theoffseason, it can be
sustainable, but it doesn't comewithout impact. And the impacts
worse for singers who areamateur on a stage than it is
(46:35):
for professionals.
Dr Marisa Lee Naism (46:38):
Absolutely.
All right. Myth number four.
Singing starts with the breath.
It all starts with the breath.
Chris Johnson (46:47):
Of course it does. Yeah, no, that's that is
the argument, isn't it? Well,you can't sing without a breath
coming through it. So it will beunderstandable why we could say
everything starts with thebreath. But in the nervous
system, it can be a verydifferent story, can't it? In
the way that the nervous systemfires? It starts with the voice.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (47:11):
Well, isn't it a neuro muscular
activity? So it starts at
Chris Johnson (47:15):
conception? Yeah.
And
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (47:18):
then that fires, everything else.
Yeah,
Chris Johnson (47:22):
of which the fires the vocal folds coming
together and stretching to thepitch first, the thought the
breath? Yeah, which sort ofreinforces that the breath is
there to calibrate itself aroundaround the valve around the
register. So the register isvery important. The valve is
very important. And the breathYes, we take it in first in
preparation for this to happen.
But really, the configuration ofthe voice is is higher in the
(47:45):
priority or higher in the orderof events in the nervous system
than the breathing is. So thebreath begins and then
calibrates itself quickly aroundwhat's going on at the vocal
fold level. So the breath isactually sort of saying to the
vocal folds, what do you need?
You know, your first What do youneed? What can I give you? And
(48:05):
if we think of it like that,that's why it's probably good to
call it support in that way.
Because support means you're notthe main event. You're there to
make sure the main event canhappen. And so and that would
say then, in the hierarchy ofthings you probably not first
Yes. Interesting. Yeah. It'scool, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (48:24):
That is cool. See, I didn't know that.
Should I have known that? Am I abad teacher?
Chris Johnson (48:31):
No, but I mean, I've been drawn attention by
Heidi Moss, who's a greatteacher. She's
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (48:36):
my buddy. Oh, cool. I stayed at her
house. Not so long ago in that
Chris Johnson (48:41):
she did in San Francisco. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah,
she she posted quite quite sometime ago. Now some research. I
think it was Edward Chang is theresearcher, but it just
reinforces that the sort of thehierarchy of events that go into
make it or vocalising and, andso they see Yeah, the firing of
the nerves and everything elsethat are associated with the
(49:03):
closure of the vocal folds andin setting the length and
tension. And also along with thearticulators in the same part of
the brain. So it's like thevocal, the larynx and the
articulators. They all sit inposition a bit earlier than,
than breath and then breathcomes just shortly afterwards.
Very interesting. That sort ofreinforces why some schools of
(49:27):
thought are like, okay, yes, acontinuous breath or a
consistent breath can create aconsistent or continuous tone,
that's cool. But there's a wholebunch of other people out there
who are like, the breath willsort itself out, and that
they're not wrong either.
They're kind of probablyintuitively working on what I've
just described. But then thereare physiological, cultural,
(49:48):
postural health. Any challengeyou can imagine. That means that
singers can't just live in onecamp or the other. Occasionally,
we just have to help someone canalter their breath pattern. Yes.
And sometimes we just have tohelp them alter their voicing
pattern and the breathcalibrates itself perfectly
around it. If we can't step intoone side or the other for
(50:10):
singers, then we're unable tohelp the greatest amount of
people. So I think we canacknowledge what the nervous
system likes to do. But then wehave to acknowledge what stops
the body from carrying it out isthe other problem that we face.
Yes.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (50:25):
So when we have a breathy onset, because
obviously this calibration isthe thing that is the start of
fo nation. So this is all goingon before we've made sound. So
when you have someone that has abreath, the onset, which means
the breath has kicked in beforethe sound, as everyone knows
(50:46):
what has misfired there? Is it amisfire,
Chris Johnson (50:49):
it could quite often it's conceptual, that's
turned itself into a habit. Andhabit has become subconscious.
So it's, or it might not haveeven been chosen in the
beginning it might have beenemulated from artists, and then
it becomes a pattern. And one ofthe greatest lines that I've
heard a teacher say is Robert,Satsuma, and he's, I always say
this line is you don't have tothink to get into a pattern, but
(51:12):
you have to think to get out ofone Oh 100%. And that's
incorrect. As such, when itcomes to breathy onsets it's or
any any kind of vocal problem.
It's like, I know, you didn'tchoose this, this is a real pain
in the bum. But you're gonnahave to choose to get out of it.
And so it feels like I didn't dothis. Why do I have to do? Why
do I have to choose to get outof it, it's a bit like that.
But, but that's just the way itis. So when it comes to breathy
(51:34):
onsets, if they areuncontrollable, and unwanted,
then you do get back intoconsciously applying what would
be the closure and I trainedsingers in something called
foundational tone. Sofoundational tone for me is, is
actually the the union of breathand voice at that moment. And so
(51:54):
many singers who have troublewith their chest voice
specifically, it's quite oftenwhen they're trying to come into
chest voice, what some singers,they come in quite deep like
this, and it makes the vocalfolds quite loose, and you tend
to get a lot of air comingthrough that as well. So that's
a conceptual problem withthinking that chest voice equals
(52:14):
depth, which it doesn't. Chestvoices main characteristic is
actually brightness. Butsingers, they so often
misconceived that and ended upgoing for this part of it, which
they see as chess, but, but thatpart of it is actually one of
the more overwhelming parts ofthe toning head voice is a lot
of low frequency EQ, if youlike. So I tend to use something
(52:38):
like we practice those littleglottal strokes, chords come
together, just lightly, yes. Andthen. And they're so soft, that
they can be sort of not quiteglottal and hard, but still firm
in a way that brings the vocalcords together. And when we can
(52:58):
get a 10 singers can themeradicate that? Sometimes I also
ask them to become aware oftheir throat that they're not
not plunging it or not liftingit up or crunching, but it
becomes a closure of the vocalfolds that comes with no what I
(53:19):
call baggage. I like that it'snot missing. It's not lifting.
It's just the vocal cords dothat and the throat does nothing
else. Yes. Then that brings thatsort of function back to the
brain. I think the brain goes,Oh, okay, so this thing can
happen independent of all theseother things. And it's like,
yes, it can. So I tend to helpbuild that order of voicing by
(53:41):
by playing with very smallmovements like that, and then
gradually bringing sound tothem.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (53:51):
Thank you so much for listening to
this episode of a voice andbeyond. I hope you enjoyed it,
as now is an important time foryou to invest in your own self
care, personal growth, andeducation. Use every day as an
opportunity to learn and togrow, so you can show up feeling
(54:13):
empowered and ready to live yourbest life. If you know someone
who will also be inspired bythis episode, please be sure to
copy and paste the link andshare it with them. Or share it
on social media and use thehashtag a voice and beyond. I
promise you I am committed tobringing you more inspiration
(54:36):
and conversations just like thisone every week. And if you would
like to help me please rate andreview this podcast and cheer me
on by clicking the subscribebutton on Apple podcast right
now. I would also love to knowwhat it is that you most enjoyed
about this episode. And what wasyour biggest takeaway? Please
(55:00):
take care and I look forward toyour company next time on the
next episode of a voice andbeyond
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It's Marisa Lee here, and I'm soexcited to be sharing today's
interview round episode withyou. In these episodes, our
(01:59):
brilliant lineup of guests willinclude healthcare
practitioners, voice educators,and other professionals who will
share their stories, knowledgeand experiences within their
specialised fields to empoweryou to live your best life.
Whether you're a member of thevoice, community, or beyond your
(02:23):
voice is your unique gift. It'stime now to share your gift with
others develop a positivemindset and become the best and
most authentic version ofyourself to create greater
impact. Ultimately, you can takecharge, it's time for you to
(02:46):
live your best life. It's timenow for a voice and beyond. So
without further ado, let's go totoday's episode.
The Internet is a minefield ofinformation, but it is also rife
(03:06):
with misinformation. And when itcomes to voice teaching, as an
industry, we are not excludedfrom the bombardment of
misinformation. Whether it's aYouTube video, and Instagram
post, a tick tock video or apost on a social media forum.
(03:29):
There is an inundation ofmisinformation regarding how to
sing voice training techniques,and singing teachers and coaches
themselves, showing us how theybelieve it should be done. We
are in an unregulated industry,and anyone can claim to have
(03:51):
discovered the holy grail tovocal greatness. Therefore, this
week on a voice and beyond. Iasked Chris Johnson to return to
the show as our special guestand voice geek to spill the tea
and shed the truth about some ofthe most widely spread myths
(04:14):
that apply to singing. ChrisJohnson is an internationally
acclaimed singing teacher andhighly respected vocal coach who
has been trained in ManualTherapy Massage, myofascial
release, and his trainingperspective respects the whole
(04:35):
self. He is the founder ofsinging teacher training
organisation, teach voice and cofounder of one of the most
popular podcasts for singers,the naked vocalist. Chris has
also had a professionalperformance career and truly
(04:55):
understands the demands onsingers today and the vital role
voice training plays indeveloping and sustaining
healthy vocal production. Thisis a two part episode. And in
this part one episode, Chris isgoing to do some myth busting
(05:17):
around topics such as the roleof singing teacher versus vocal
coach tension, the role of thebreath, and voice placement. It
is a fascinating and mostinformative episode, and part
two will be released in theweeks to come. So without
(05:42):
further ado, let's go to today'sepisode
Welcome to a voice and beyond wehave Chris Johnson in the house.
How are you Chris?
Chris Johnson (06:02):
I'm very well, thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:04):
You're giving yourself a cheer. I like
that.
Chris Johnson (06:07):
I am. Yeah, I need to create some vibes
because you know, I can't hearthe audience out there. So I
have to create me own.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:14):
I'll give you a clap.
Chris Johnson (06:15):
Okay, thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:16):
I'll give How about a round of
applause.
Chris Johnson (06:19):
Thank You
Unknown (06:21):
It was round.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (06:22):
It was Crockett. Yes. Now, Chris, we're
going to be very serioustonight, we have quite an
episode that were planned forthe audience. Because we're
going to be doing some mythbusting. People are literally
being bombarded with informationat present. There's all the
(06:44):
forums on social media, everyonehas an opinion. And all the
opinions are so different. Sofar, so varied. And then you
have YouTube. And my singers areoften tempted to go and have a
look on YouTube. And they comeback with the most weird and
(07:05):
wonderful things. And I go, Whatare you doing? Oh, I saw this on
YouTube. And
Chris Johnson (07:12):
yeah, something about YouTube, is I do get
brought back down to Earth withsometimes with how the industry
works. And so it's not unusualfor me to say work with a client
who might be on a major label.
Yes. Well, you know, somebodywell known in a tour or
something like that. And thefirst time we meet each other,
it would be Hey, so what are youworking on? Do you have a vocal
(07:33):
warmup at the moment or regime?
And they say, yeah, yeah, we'vegot one. And even if they're
like a high end singer, theamount of times they say, I just
get it all from YouTube. Justget it all from YouTube. A high
end singer. Yeah. So evensomebody who's like, you know,
selling, like in the hundreds ofmillions of in the hundreds of
(07:54):
millions of streams on Spotify,is that the warm up will be are
quite often from YouTube. Soyou've got I've got to remind
myself that actually, sometimesit doesn't matter what level of
Korea that person is at YouTubeisn't it is actually one of the
main resources for people to getto get their warm ups. And so
(08:16):
that means if you're on YouTube,when you're spreading great
stuff, you're gonna do good inthe world. But if you're on
YouTube spreadingdisinformation. Yes, it could
permeate out quite badly intointo all areas. I
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (08:30):
only have one comment to make on that
these people that are sellingmillions of their souls. Can't
they afford a vocal teacher?
The record companies cashing inthat much these people can't go
and get a proper paying, likevocal coach.
Chris Johnson (08:51):
Yeah, I don't know. I think it's I think it's
just maybe I think there's somany factors, isn't it?
Sometimes it's like, you know,I'm a natural talent. So I want
to preserve that some people sayespecially managers often say,
Oh, don't go with a vocal coach,because they will take every
ounce of individuality from you.
Yeah, and I can understand whythat's been said, of course, in
the past completely, or it mightjust be not really see the value
(09:14):
or don't don't do anything untilsomething goes wrong, which is
really the biggest one, isn'tit? So
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (09:20):
yeah, don't fix what isn't broken?
Chris Johnson (09:24):
Yeah.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (09:24):
Yeah, essentially. Okay, Chris. So,
you're an internationallyacclaimed singing teacher and a
highly experienced vocal coach.
So we're gonna go straight toMyth number one, and why I have
you doing all this myth busting,is because not only have you had
this massive career in theteaching realm, but you also had
(09:48):
a performance Korea, youapproach your teaching,
respecting the whole selfbecause you've trained in
different modalities.
And you're a geek,
Chris Johnson (10:01):
thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:02):
You are a total like, true proper voice
geek with a sense of humour,which is very unusual.
Chris Johnson (10:12):
I'm ticking some boxes there. Thank you very
much. Oh
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:14):
my gosh, you tick just about all of them.
Chris Johnson (10:17):
That's my that's my aim.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:19):
I'll find one that's unticked as we
go.
Chris Johnson (10:23):
I'm gonna Yeah, I'm gonna trick you into
believing I am a blemish Willis,work of art?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (10:29):
Oh, look at you. Of course you are. Okay,
so let's go to Myth number one.
And I think you can answer thisbecause you are an acclaimed
singing teacher, as well asvocal coach. Now, some tip boys,
teachers pull themselves vocalcoaches, while others claim to
(10:50):
be singing teachers exclusively.
And they say that they don't doany vocal coaching. So is there
a point in the training of asinger that the to do
Unknown (11:05):
meet? Yeah, I
Chris Johnson (11:07):
think there has to be doesn't there, it would be
quite awkward in a lesson when aparticular need arises that
would require you to switch fromteacher which is if we just kind
of clarify, I guess, singingteaching being that you are able
to instruct somebody on how touse their voice to achieve a
functional goal. That could beanything from extended range,
(11:28):
you know, the, I guess thetechnical tickbox have that. But
then the coach, the coach wouldusually help the singer make
decisions whereby they use thoseskills that they have, in order
to deliver songs in differentways. And that could be
stylistically it could bemelodically artistically. So
(11:49):
they're the distinctions and itwould be quite awkward. Then if
in the middle of a session whenyou're done teaching somebody
some range stuff. They're like,Oh, how should I deliver this
song? And you're like, oh, no, Idon't do that. And I know,
sometimes that might be thecase. Because it might be I'm
really just a classical teacher,I don't really do r&b. And that
would be cool. But I stillbelieve that there's going to be
(12:11):
some opinion delivered by thatteacher to go, or maybe I think
you should try it like this ortry it like that. So exactly.
Yeah, it's gonna be very hard tokeep a hard border between
singing teacher and vocal coach.
Yes, yeah. 100%.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (12:24):
And I claim to be both. There are
times where I need to have thesinging teacher hat on. And
there are times where I need tobe a vocal coach, because we're
working on repertoire, where wemay need to make style choices,
or I have to help them makedecisions in the lesson as to
(12:44):
the way they want to deliver asong, or what the correct accent
is for something. I mean,there's so many things that we
do as vocal coaches. Andsometimes the to do kind of
marry up almost when you areworking on repertoire. And you
use the repertoire to teach themsomething functional. Or you use
(13:12):
the repertoire to do thetechnical training as well,
which I do at times to almost doa two in one to multitask
without them realising that I'mmultitasking. I've got both hats
on at the same time throughoutthat one song. Yeah,
Chris Johnson (13:30):
agreed, agreed.
And I don't know how you feltabout this in your career. But I
think really just because of theway I grew as a singer, I think
and I think I grew most of mystylistic skills, fairly late on
in my singing career. early partof my singing career, I was
actually singing the same genreof music all of the time. I also
wasn't teaching in a very variedenvironment. So I was quite
(13:51):
uncomfortable with being a vocalcoach in the beginning. I just
wanted to teach the technique.
You're the artist, you can youcan do all that. But where I
actually ended up learning froma lot of different stylistic
singers actually ended up youknow, baptism of fire. I ended
up teaching a part of a diplomacourse where I had to teach
(14:11):
style and improvisation havingreally not really taught it in a
structured way, but rather justdelivered it as part of like,
you know, oh, you're in a rockband this week as a function
singer. So you've got a soundRocky, you know, you know, all
these bits and pieces, butteaching it in a more structured
way. Yes. That was stress andanxiety inducing to do that for
(14:32):
a year. But it didn't have toteach me a lot. I mean, oh my
goodness, I learned a lot. Andthen I ended up actually singing
different styles myself, aspeople would ask me to do more
varied things out of the band.
Yes. From you know, throughmusical theatre to slightly more
very poppy stuff rock stuffsold, which was I was always
into, so I became much morecomfortable with being a vocal
(14:53):
coach over time and learningpentatonic scales, and
musicality, like that's such aGreat tool to kind of dabble
yourself into being becomingmore of a coach. Yes, and you
don't, you just need to be ableto know the scales, it's
actually really, it's reallyrewarding to show somebody how
to navigate themselves aroundthings like pentatonic and blues
(15:13):
scales, and then then createtheir own melodies. It's
wonderful. And so I've reallyactually started to enjoy the
coach coaching. And when someonecomes in with a song and says,
Oh, I'd love to figure out somenew ways to do this. It's just
so fun. I love it. When peoplecome in to say that you just get
on the piano, start faffingaround few ideas, creativity
(15:33):
starts flowing. Oh, it's so fun.
Yes,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (15:40):
I love that side of it. And I feel that
I started out as a vocal coach.
Because my career journey isdifferent to most. I always say
my career started when I wasfive years old, when I started
listening to the music. And, youknow, coming from a migrant
family, we were listening toItalian folk songs and arias, we
(16:01):
have Mario lanza playing there,my brother belonged to a record
club. So we would have pop,rock, blues, r&b, everything.
And I was listening to thismusic on a daily basis. So my
ear is really well attuned toall the style elements and every
(16:27):
nuance in so many of thesestyles. And I feel really at
home in that vocal coachingarena. And I if something's not
right, in terms of style, anddelivery, it's like, you know,
because we do have to beauthentic to style. Yeah, you
(16:50):
can improvise, but the boneshave to be there. You have to
respect the integrity of thatmusic.
Chris Johnson (17:03):
Yeah, I think that's a big subject, isn't it?
Yes. I think I saw Brian BrianGill talk about that. It may be
even been on this podcast.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (17:11):
I have had Brian Yeah,
Chris Johnson (17:13):
where he's talking about, you know, you can
sing any style you want. Andit's like, that's not quite
true. And I really, I reallyresonated with what you said
about that. Because at the endof the day, you have to live
with something deeply for a longtime. And yes, and it's fair
enough, you know, when it wouldlike to say in the world of
musical theatre when the when ifyou've been a musical theatre
(17:34):
train singer, but you have tosing in a bluesy style show or
then you have to sing in a poppystyle show. Yes, they can make
bluesy and poppy style sounds.
But blues and pop fans wouldstill notice it as not really
being blues or pop wouldn't buyit. No, they wouldn't buy it and
it's no offence that I mean, thejob you're doing is good for the
is good for the theatre, but itdoesn't make you a blues singer.
(17:55):
No, absolutely. And that's theconfusion I think people are
having is like, yeah, I can doblues. I even saw on a forum one
time. It was a it was aclassical singer who's saying
I'm comfortable with singing allstyles, but then what it
transpired was, well, yeah, ofcourse I sound like Pavarotti
when I do them. But I can stillsing them all. And what they
were doing was confusing singingthe style. Yes. With singing the
(18:17):
pitches. And the words. Yes,that doesn't make you it doesn't
make you a blues singer. Or, youknow, or rock singer. I can sing
all the high notes, but theywanted to preserve their own
sound. And they didn't realisethat. Well, that doesn't mean
you sing the genre, then itwould be
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (18:34):
like me singing classical music and
sounding like I'm a rock singerat heart. You can see in
classical music, it doesn'twork. I don't know what I'm
doing. I can mimic the sound.
But is it a good sound? Or thethe accepted? does it fall
within the ideals of that belcanto? The Eurocentric western
(18:58):
classical sound? No. I soundweird. Absolutely weird. But no,
I think, you know, it'simportant that we have that
sound, whatever sound we'reteaching, it's almost like it
(19:19):
has to be in our bodies. We dohave to immerse ourselves in
that music and continue to doso. Because our, you know, the
landscape of music styles thatfall in CCM, especially is
growing at a phenomenal rate.
There's new sub style, there'sstyles coming out there was I
(19:44):
mean, I've heard of this bedroompop dark pop. There was another
pop that came out the other dayand what is this? Like? Do us
guys just make this up? Or is ita real thing?
Chris Johnson (19:58):
Nobody here knows it. Pop is starting to catch up
with rock as far as the amountof sub genres that are within
it. You know, rock used to belike, there's so many little
categories of rock or subgenres. But yeah, Dream pop is
another one that I work forquite a bit. I think that was
it. Yeah, that's been around fora while, actually. Yeah. So
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:19):
when the first one came in and said, Oh,
I sing dark pop to turn thelights out.
Unknown (20:29):
This one came.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:33):
I think bedroom pop. And I said, Do you
Have you tried the dining room?
Oh, my goodness. Dream pop. Ijust want to say maybe you want
to try seeing what you're awake.
Chris Johnson (20:52):
Today do they look at you with a blank
expression?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:54):
No, in my students get to know me
quicks. Okay.
Chris Johnson (20:59):
Yeah, I try my dad jokes on people as well. And
they I sometimes get a laugh andsometimes get a deadpan. Yeah.
I'll say anyway, though.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (21:08):
Exactly.
You know what we have toentertain people while we're
teaching? Yep. Yeah. Okay, let'sgo to Myth number two. Tension
is bad. So is there a time whenit is good for us? Yes.
Chris Johnson (21:26):
Absolutely. Okay.
Yeah. Tension is part of theintegrity of something, isn't
it? And certainly, as we areliving beings full of tissue,
fascia, all the things that holdus together, there's a tension
balance that allows things towork optimally. So the problem
with tension is in the name oferadicating all feelings of any
(21:49):
muscle effort at all. Singersand and coaches and advice
that's out there on theinternet, would lead people to
do exercises that just turn thembasically into flaccid things,
floppy flaccid voices that haveno interest or no dynamic. It's
(22:09):
just and they try and sing withthat and the confusion out there
is lost between sort of tensionand tenseness or, you know, I
often make the distinctionbetween tension and tenseness
does it feel tense to the pointtense is normally it's not
comfortable. And it's inhibitingthe movement of other things.
(22:32):
It's putting a tenseness intothe into the system rather than
a tension. Because at the end ofthe day, the vocal the vocal
folds raise pitch by applyingtension. That's how you raise
pitch. The larynx needs to moveup and down from muscles
becoming active. Yes. And inrock singing, say and really
high rain singing. Singers gointo what would look like
(22:54):
hypertension. So a lot oftension in the muscles or
activity. But it's it's anecessary hyperactivity if you
like to achieve the goal. Butit's it's short lived. And we
have things like cool downprocedures whereby you can go
off last and it's nice to beable to go flaccid, if you'd
(23:15):
like to let's not carry on withthat word too much.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (23:18):
No, I don't want to be.
Unknown (23:21):
Don't ever make me flustered in my life.
Chris Johnson (23:26):
When we have conversations with singers only
really need to say that wordonce before it just hits home.
But yeah, having cool downs andyou know, ways to reset Yes. Is
then necessary. hyperfunctionis, is there not a problem. And
I think we should talk aboutthings like sometimes the sport
analogy is good, because at theend of the day, every sport has
(23:49):
its impact. It has its necessaryimpacts. But every sport has its
way to recover. Every sport hasits treatments, every sport has
its injuries. And I don't thinkwe can expect singers to go out
into the wide variety of genresand stay completely within utter
(24:11):
comfort the whole time everybodyis going to be stretching the
boundary at some point. And it'swhether it's whether they know
how to approach over stretchingthemselves in the right way,
like not when you're wreckedfrom the day before. Right? You
choose Plan B on those days. Butyou know, if you're if you're
really if you're feeling reallygood and you know your voice has
(24:32):
been great for a while if youoverstretch yourself a bit. It
doesn't cost you so much. It'snot that we have to worry. It's
when singers can't see thegathering problems of doing that
too often and too much wherethen things do go from into
tenseness that doesn't resolveday to day and comes along with
(24:52):
different stuff. So I think it'simportant to make that
distinction between tension andtenseness.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (24:58):
Yes. So What about then? When people
blame tension for somethinggoing wrong with the sound? Or
should I say they the singerruns into problems? I'm trying
to train myself out of sayingwords like Right and Wrong, Good
and bad. So what if a singerbrands into some kind of
(25:21):
challenge that is being causedby tenseness? Usually, it's
either tongue root, that's a bigone with some laryngeal stuff,
or it could even be somethinggoing on with the upper body
like the shoulders. When do wedo we still want that to be
(25:41):
flaccid?
Chris Johnson (25:42):
The thing about tenseness is is about how it
arrives. So let's let's put itthis way, the way I tend to work
with teachers and also with withsingers is that we have to look
at symptom or cause sometimesbecause it's not always clear.
And when it comes to when itcomes to tension, let's say
tension creates a balance. Thenervous system knows that that's
(26:06):
why if you have an injuredmuscle, say on one side of your
body section in your leg, othermuscles will upgrade their
efforts to compensate for thatinjured muscle or missing
function. Right. So you can'tyou can't stop that unless you
just lay in your bed, you'regonna have to compensate to
carry on with life. And ifpeople are like, Okay, I've got
(26:28):
to get rid of the tenseness inthat muscle. It's like, well,
you can't until you're recoveredfrom the injury, unless you just
lay in your bed all day. And sosingers are the same singers.
Sometimes, let's say they mayhave had some idea about singing
that might not quite fit withtheir physiology. Let's say they
don't really use their chestvoice very much because it's a
pain in the bum. So they use alighter register and use
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (26:53):
what you say I'm sorry, I'm Australian, I
have a wicked humour. You see.
Unknown (27:01):
They don't use their chest. Because it's a pain in
the bum. I'm thinking that'swhat that's not singing.
Chris Johnson (27:10):
We can get Chris This is very convoluted. Okay,
because it's a pain in the neck,way back pain in the neck. But
when somebody doesn't use somekind of important function, I
think to keep the voice stableand to involve the whole the
whole vocal mechanism insomething that needs to be
(27:31):
there. The nervous system picksup that slack and it and it can
add tension into the system fromknee jerk constrictions and
tightness says, Yes, I'm seeinga speck in spend and teachers as
well can spend years trying toget rid of this tenseness not
realising it absolutely needs tobe there for that singer to
(27:53):
function. And so again, if welook at tension, if tension is
looked at at its basic, like onits basic level, that's tense, I
need to relax it. It doesn'treally acknowledge the reasons
why that that is there. And ifit constantly returns, I implore
people to look at the idea thatthat tension or tenseness there
(28:14):
looks like it's probablynecessary, because something
else underlying for stability orfunction is missing. And that
may be something that isphysiological something that is
not necessarily chosen. Or itcould be conceptual, which is
the singer has an idea ofsinging that actually creates an
issue within the voice. Yes. Soyeah, when we get into tension
(28:38):
and tenseness, we have to getinto is it a compensation or not
for a conceptual orphysiological issue? And that's
why we can't just we can't justget rid of it. It's not a thing
to just get rid of. It's a thingto explore.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (28:52):
Yes. And sometimes it can be a
manipulation.
Chris Johnson (28:56):
So how do you mean? Well,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (28:57):
I had a student that came to me, I'm
still teaching her she's inthird year now. But she had a
bleat. Her vibrato was reallyreally, really quick. She
sounded like a lamb, like, but alamb. That was on steroids. And,
(29:19):
you know, and I was trained thatif someone has a very, very fast
vibrato or a very slow vibrato,there's some sort of tension
somewhere. So I was just tryingto figure out how I was going to
calm down this vibrato. And oneday, I was at the piano, and I
just got her to sing Gah, on afive note descending scale. So
(29:42):
God Gaga, Gaga, right? Novibrato, and I've turned around
and said, there's no vibrato, orno, but I don't need to use
vibrato. I said why do you feelthe need to use use it in your
singing, all because it's notsinging unless I have a Broto.
(30:08):
Okay, and she was manipulatingand that manipulation, whatever
she was doing to achieve adesired sound that she thought
was a good sound was creatingthe tension.
Chris Johnson (30:22):
Hmm. I love that.
Yeah.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (30:25):
So I think sometimes then I have
another one at the moment, whenshe does melismas she is the
veins are popping out but likethe laryngeal tension and get
her to sing on a straight tone,it is very clear. So she is
manipulating to create thoselisteners. So it's very
(30:49):
interesting because she feelsthat she sounds amazing. Yeah.
Chris Johnson (30:54):
And Jack comes into something which is quite, I
think important is is you knowhow the brain works in terms of
making tasks easier. Like if forsomeone to do melismas you know,
parts of that they they let offthe nervous system patterns take
over because they've sang thatstyle and those patterns
routinely. So there is someletting go and letting the
(31:15):
nervous system take over themovement just like we'd let the
nervous system take overwalking, you know, it's works on
a predictive way. But if we haveto move if we have to move each
leg as we go, obviously, thatwould take ages. So riffs tend
to be slower when people dothat. Yes. Yeah. And also
they're more tense because youcan't just let it run fluidly on
(31:38):
its on its its predictive kindof function in the nervous
system. So it's like, yeah, Ithink that's that's really
important to get people out ofconsciously managing every
aspect of movement in theirvoice. Yeah, just like an ice
skater. Let's go to momentum.
You know, you don't you justhave to let go and take
momentum. And singers need totake momentum in the same way. I
(31:58):
think they need to let go to themomentum of singing and see
actually what, what forces theycan't feel or control actually
carry them quickly. It's like,oh, it takes a lot of trust to
do that.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (32:12):
Yes. And it's like a dancer executing
pirouettes. Sure. You know, theyhad the preparation in the play.
But then once they're in thatspin, you just let yourself go.
I know my daughter used to beable to do six. Wow. And she's
down to three now. Or four.
Right? But that's anotherexample of just letting go. And
(32:35):
I liked what you call thatmanaging. I call it
manipulating. Right. Okay. Ilike, what did you call it
managing? Yeah,
Chris Johnson (32:50):
I just call it managing managing your voice,
which is just not not wonderful.
But if you learn something brandnew, you do go into management
mode. And then you experience ita couple of times, and then you
gradually have to start lettingit go to Okay, once you've
experienced it a few times, andin different ways you can build
the brain's ability to predictthe outcome of when you next do
(33:13):
it, the brain knows, it knowsit. And if there's a prediction,
there's an experience of it,and, and especially in different
environments you've done onstage, you've done it in the
practice room, you've done itwhilst moving and standing
still. You've done it whilstwhiny or Wolfie or some other
way, you know, you build thatPrediction Engine. And then you
can let go of managing becauseprediction takes over, which is
(33:35):
really, really cool. So you dohave to sometimes switch to
management mode when things aretricky. Yes. But singers often
never get out of it. Theycontrol it, stay with control,
and then they live like thatforever. And then they always
come to me with the limitationsthat are usually quite similar.
Yes.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (33:56):
Okay, we're going to move on to Myth
number three, which is shoutingis unhealthy. Okay, so I'm just
gonna start here with I mean,one of the main reasons children
have nodules is because they'reshouting in the playground. So
(34:19):
is it specifically for aparticular age group that they
shouldn't be shouting or isshouting unhealthy or healthy
for everybody? I
Chris Johnson (34:29):
think it's good to talk about this because in
the name of raising your voice,so yes, raising your voice in
certain ways will add moreimpact onto your voice. And so
again, done often and a lot.
Yes, there can be abrasions andinjuries that happen on the
voice. But once again,especially from the world of
singing, that information istaken, and it's taken to never
(34:52):
raising your voice. So it's, itjust gets completely distorted
into that's unhealthy. It's abit like tension as well, all
tension is bad, it comes alongwith these things. But it's
misunderstood. And so everyonegoes for no tension. The amount
of singers I've I've met who go,I just try never to raise my
voice ever. And what they don'trealise is that sort of, that
(35:14):
sort of atrophies your abilityas a singer. So we weren't born
without with friggin phones. So,you know, we didn't start our
evolutionary journey being ableto phone each other. We didn't
have to call across mountains,we did have to, yes, you know,
when when we when we would workon like, you know, I guess
farming, early farming, it usedto be like, catch the goat, you
(35:37):
know, I mean, if the goatsrunning off, get the go, or
there's a
Unknown (35:45):
flabby goat.
Chris Johnson (35:49):
So we have all that, and it's, and I believe
that part of my job for singersis to teach them how to be loud,
I teach them how to, I guess, Iguess sometimes shouting, yes,
it's not a great word. But Iteach them to use their voice at
volumes safely again, becauseand they're absolutely petrified
(36:10):
of doing it. But for the singersto for their robustness for them
to understand, oh, actually,this can be supported by
resonance. When I approach it,it doesn't have to be a crunch
onset that goes, Yeah, like thatkind of thing. It doesn't have
to work like that, it can feelactually very easy. And then the
(36:30):
volume generated is like, whoa,wow, that's pretty big. That's
pretty big. And we're not goingto do it all day long. That's a
one minute part of your warmupto check back in with your
ability to produce volume. Andthe volume you're going to
produce in your singing probablyis going to be, you know, two
thirds of that, or something.
And it's going to containvibrato, which might make it
(36:51):
even just a little less intense.
So I think as a bunch of singersand how we teach singers, their
different functional facilities,calling is a function that's
absolutely necessary. And we andwe evolved with it. So if we're
scared to use our voice in aloud way, we were there. And
we've seen this one a belt, butthey don't want to raise their
(37:13):
voice in their life. And so itbecomes a constant argument in
their brain, their body, andthey never really achieve
healthy belting. Because theycan't really call for a taxi or
something.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (37:25):
What I found really interesting,
sometimes it can be associatedwith culture. Yeah, for example,
I come from an Italian family.
So we all had to raise ourvoices to be heard. You know,
and, and plus two, we use thefull range of the voice. We'd
speak up high, and then we speakdown here. And like the movie,
(37:48):
The voice was moving in dynamicsand pitch all the time, because
that's how we express ourselves.
were highly excitable. So whenat five years old, I was
listening to that music. It wasnot a big deal for me to be
loud. I was belting. I didn'tknow it was a thing till I
(38:10):
started university 15 years ago,but I had belted my whole life
by being loud, I was hittingmoney notes, because nobody told
me I couldn't. Yeah, no one hadplaced that limitation on me and
I had a fully fledged Korea. AndI was loud when I needed to be
(38:30):
loud, and then never heard myvoice. But I don't think I was
in my head about it. And I thinkthat's the biggest difference is
when you get in your head aboutsomething, or someone places a
limitation on you, whether it'syou, you know, you create this
limiting belief or someone elseimposes limitations on you. I
(38:54):
think that's when we run intostripe and I think belting is
one of those things. Yeah, youknow, everyone has such a
different opinion about belting.
And to be honest, I just don'tknow what the problem is. I
truly don't
Chris Johnson (39:12):
know. No, it's hard. I think it's just the
confusion, isn't it between isthe causation correlation.
thing. If someone if someonebelts a lot, and then they get
an injury, that it's alwayslinked by the purists as being
that's the reason why that's thereason why 100% You know, and
it's just it's done so often.
It's actually quite irritating,isn't it?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (39:36):
I get irritated. I do get irritated.
Highly irritated. Yes. Yeah.
Because people don't realisethat we all have alive and
classical singers get injuriesalso, but no one knows about
them. It's only that a lot ofthe singers that do sustain
vocal injuries are high pro fouland they're in the media. Yeah.
Chris Johnson (40:02):
And I actually had a workshop with a really
great speech therapist calledOliver. Oliver Frischknecht came
in. I'm really proud of that, bythe way. He came in and he
actually he actually led withJonas Kaufmann, the is a
baritone, I think, a really,really good opera singer, one of
(40:22):
the most famous I think, inrecent times, and he's had two
rather notable vocal meltdowns,and one of them was he was
singing with Wagnerian singerswho are well known for being
incredibly loud. They were thefirst bunch of sort of singers,
I think, to be able to sing sostrong that they could sing over
the newly 65 piece orchestra orwhatever. Because always just
(40:46):
just grew and grew and grew overthe whatever century it was,
just got just got bigger andmore grand. So the singers had
to get more and more robust tojust even handle it. So
Wagnerian singers are known forbeing really robust. So and
Jonas Kaufman was very honest,in saying I was basically around
all these Wagnerian singers whowere banging. I tried to
(41:09):
compete, and I absolutely ruinedmy void. Like, it went that was
it gone. And he was like, I'mgonna, I'm gonna give up there.
But what I love about that is hecame back from it, obviously.
But he was so open with it. Hewas so cool. He really let that
whole stigma sort of come down alittle bit about classical and
(41:30):
even the most revered singersnow they they get it and they
get in situations that we alldo. I'm impressed by them. I'm
trying to compete with them. Iwill try and sing like them. Oh,
no. That's not what my voice is.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (41:42):
Exactly.
Imagine how many goats Wagneriansinger could get? Yeah.
Chris Johnson (41:49):
They were they were shepherds in a previous
life
Unknown (41:57):
so many guards there'd be no goats
Chris Johnson (41:59):
left. that would that would that would be our
thing for today. For this week.
Yeah, we're gonna do the get theget the go exercise will be just
one minute. Okay.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (42:08):
Can we create a get the goat exercise?
By the
Chris Johnson (42:13):
way? There's not there's not the vibrato singer
again? Is it? Because this couldgo could go wrong again.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (42:21):
Love it?
Yeah. Okay, so let's visit theother end of the spectrum, then.
What about whispering?
whispering,
Chris Johnson (42:31):
I think whispering can be quite
challenging, of course, on thevoice. Because whispering is one
of those things that obviouslyhas a very low volume and a very
great difficulty carrying overnoise. So the problem with
whispering is, is that if youwere to do it, say quite a lot,
the amount of sort of hyperfunction that can put in the
(42:51):
voice like when people whisperthey have to have to go like
really high. Like they have totry and boost these high
frequencies in whispering, andthat puts a rather a lot of
genuine tenseness into thesystem to try and get some
output to compete. Sowhispering, is very challenging
in that sense. Yes. Whereas, youknow, it's not as challenging as
(43:13):
calling because calling is sovibrant. Often people need to
realise that, oh, I don't needto make half as much effort to
make that loud. There is noopportunity to do that. And
whispering, you have to make itvery high effort to make it
work. Yes, constantly. So that'swhy I think they're whispering
is sort of more silently,dangerous, you know, in that
(43:37):
sense,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (43:38):
and I associate whispering almost with
breathiness. And I was at theGrammys, a couple of months ago,
Chris Johnson (43:46):
I knew you would find an opportunity to say that.
Come on, it's the first one I'vewaited. No, it's amazing.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (43:52):
I've waited a little while before I
dropped the G word. So theperson I could not listen to was
Billy Eilish, right, because Iunderstand that the song that
she sang in the Barbie movie waswritten at a point in the movie
(44:13):
where Barbie was showing all hervulnerabilities. And that
breathiness was for impact andto portray where the character
was at right in that moment intime. But I was thinking to
myself, and I was singing,sitting with another singing
teacher who works with our highprofile singers. I was thinking
(44:36):
How sustainable is that? Surelyshe doesn't sing like that on
tour.
Chris Johnson (44:41):
Yeah, I mean, one thing we can't ignore is you
know, I said about the thesports analogy. Some sports have
their own impacts. Some sportsneed their own cooldowns and
breathy singers. They dotypically get their voices dry
and tired. And like you've justheard into that there is that
when you're on a on a heavyschedule, let's say you're on a
(45:04):
tour and the beauty about thething about Billy Eilish being
on tour is her sound in her earwill be absolutely fantastic.
Unbelievable. So her ability tonot over push her voice I guess
on tour in that breathy way, itwill be great because then that,
you know, the sound crew willmake it sound incredible. Yes.
But if you take that breath, yousinger and you put them in the
(45:26):
open mic night with no monitors,terrible sounds, a sound crew or
person that doesn't give a shit.
And really loud drummer, theystruggle so bad. And so the
tendency for breathy singers tothen force the breathy voice to
compete with that, and so theycan hear themselves. They are
out there in a lot of danger ofthat. And I think that's why
(45:50):
breathy singers also, it is aless efficient way of singing.
It does require you to probablypractice clear voice in your
offseason or in your time offmuch more often. But that often
gets missed out. And thechallenges of the stage. It
claims a lot of breathy voices,it puts them in the graveyard
because they just don't get theenvironment that someone like
(46:14):
Billy Eilish would get wherethey they can accommodate that
lack of output with crackingsound and output in the system.
And that's why we havemicrophones. So with
microphones, it can besustainable and with the right
sort of balance work on on theoffseason, it can be
sustainable, but it doesn't comewithout impact. And the impacts
worse for singers who areamateur on a stage than it is
(46:35):
for professionals.
Dr Marisa Lee Naism (46:38):
Absolutely.
All right. Myth number four.
Singing starts with the breath.
It all starts with the breath.
Chris Johnson (46:47):
Of course it does. Yeah, no, that's that is
the argument, isn't it? Well,you can't sing without a breath
coming through it. So it will beunderstandable why we could say
everything starts with thebreath. But in the nervous
system, it can be a verydifferent story, can't it? In
the way that the nervous systemfires? It starts with the voice.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (47:11):
Well, isn't it a neuro muscular
activity? So it starts at
Chris Johnson (47:15):
conception? Yeah.
And
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (47:18):
then that fires, everything else.
Yeah,
Chris Johnson (47:22):
of which the fires the vocal folds coming
together and stretching to thepitch first, the thought the
breath? Yeah, which sort ofreinforces that the breath is
there to calibrate itself aroundaround the valve around the
register. So the register isvery important. The valve is
very important. And the breathYes, we take it in first in
preparation for this to happen.
But really, the configuration ofthe voice is is higher in the
(47:45):
priority or higher in the orderof events in the nervous system
than the breathing is. So thebreath begins and then
calibrates itself quickly aroundwhat's going on at the vocal
fold level. So the breath isactually sort of saying to the
vocal folds, what do you need?
You know, your first What do youneed? What can I give you? And
(48:05):
if we think of it like that,that's why it's probably good to
call it support in that way.
Because support means you're notthe main event. You're there to
make sure the main event canhappen. And so and that would
say then, in the hierarchy ofthings you probably not first
Yes. Interesting. Yeah. It'scool, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (48:24):
That is cool. See, I didn't know that.
Should I have known that? Am I abad teacher?
Chris Johnson (48:31):
No, but I mean, I've been drawn attention by
Heidi Moss, who's a greatteacher. She's
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (48:36):
my buddy. Oh, cool. I stayed at her
house. Not so long ago in that
Chris Johnson (48:41):
she did in San Francisco. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah,
she she posted quite quite sometime ago. Now some research. I
think it was Edward Chang is theresearcher, but it just
reinforces that the sort of thehierarchy of events that go into
make it or vocalising and, andso they see Yeah, the firing of
the nerves and everything elsethat are associated with the
(49:03):
closure of the vocal folds andin setting the length and
tension. And also along with thearticulators in the same part of
the brain. So it's like thevocal, the larynx and the
articulators. They all sit inposition a bit earlier than,
than breath and then breathcomes just shortly afterwards.
Very interesting. That sort ofreinforces why some schools of
(49:27):
thought are like, okay, yes, acontinuous breath or a
consistent breath can create aconsistent or continuous tone,
that's cool. But there's a wholebunch of other people out there
who are like, the breath willsort itself out, and that
they're not wrong either.
They're kind of probablyintuitively working on what I've
just described. But then thereare physiological, cultural,
(49:48):
postural health. Any challengeyou can imagine. That means that
singers can't just live in onecamp or the other. Occasionally,
we just have to help someone canalter their breath pattern. Yes.
And sometimes we just have tohelp them alter their voicing
pattern and the breathcalibrates itself perfectly
around it. If we can't step intoone side or the other for
(50:10):
singers, then we're unable tohelp the greatest amount of
people. So I think we canacknowledge what the nervous
system likes to do. But then wehave to acknowledge what stops
the body from carrying it out isthe other problem that we face.
Yes.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (50:25):
So when we have a breathy onset, because
obviously this calibration isthe thing that is the start of
fo nation. So this is all goingon before we've made sound. So
when you have someone that has abreath, the onset, which means
the breath has kicked in beforethe sound, as everyone knows
(50:46):
what has misfired there? Is it amisfire,
Chris Johnson (50:49):
it could quite often it's conceptual, that's
turned itself into a habit. Andhabit has become subconscious.
So it's, or it might not haveeven been chosen in the
beginning it might have beenemulated from artists, and then
it becomes a pattern. And one ofthe greatest lines that I've
heard a teacher say is Robert,Satsuma, and he's, I always say
this line is you don't have tothink to get into a pattern, but
(51:12):
you have to think to get out ofone Oh 100%. And that's
incorrect. As such, when itcomes to breathy onsets it's or
any any kind of vocal problem.
It's like, I know, you didn'tchoose this, this is a real pain
in the bum. But you're gonnahave to choose to get out of it.
And so it feels like I didn't dothis. Why do I have to do? Why
do I have to choose to get outof it, it's a bit like that.
But, but that's just the way itis. So when it comes to breathy
(51:34):
onsets, if they areuncontrollable, and unwanted,
then you do get back intoconsciously applying what would
be the closure and I trainedsingers in something called
foundational tone. Sofoundational tone for me is, is
actually the the union of breathand voice at that moment. And so
(51:54):
many singers who have troublewith their chest voice
specifically, it's quite oftenwhen they're trying to come into
chest voice, what some singers,they come in quite deep like
this, and it makes the vocalfolds quite loose, and you tend
to get a lot of air comingthrough that as well. So that's
a conceptual problem withthinking that chest voice equals
(52:14):
depth, which it doesn't. Chestvoices main characteristic is
actually brightness. Butsingers, they so often
misconceived that and ended upgoing for this part of it, which
they see as chess, but, but thatpart of it is actually one of
the more overwhelming parts ofthe toning head voice is a lot
of low frequency EQ, if youlike. So I tend to use something
(52:38):
like we practice those littleglottal strokes, chords come
together, just lightly, yes. Andthen. And they're so soft, that
they can be sort of not quiteglottal and hard, but still firm
in a way that brings the vocalcords together. And when we can
(52:58):
get a 10 singers can themeradicate that? Sometimes I also
ask them to become aware oftheir throat that they're not
not plunging it or not liftingit up or crunching, but it
becomes a closure of the vocalfolds that comes with no what I
(53:19):
call baggage. I like that it'snot missing. It's not lifting.
It's just the vocal cords dothat and the throat does nothing
else. Yes. Then that brings thatsort of function back to the
brain. I think the brain goes,Oh, okay, so this thing can
happen independent of all theseother things. And it's like,
yes, it can. So I tend to helpbuild that order of voicing by
(53:41):
by playing with very smallmovements like that, and then
gradually bringing sound tothem.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (53:51):
Thank you so much for listening to
this episode of a voice andbeyond. I hope you enjoyed it,
as now is an important time foryou to invest in your own self
care, personal growth, andeducation. Use every day as an
opportunity to learn and togrow, so you can show up feeling
(54:13):
empowered and ready to live yourbest life. If you know someone
who will also be inspired bythis episode, please be sure to
copy and paste the link andshare it with them. Or share it
on social media and use thehashtag a voice and beyond. I
promise you I am committed tobringing you more inspiration
(54:36):
and conversations just like thisone every week. And if you would
like to help me please rate andreview this podcast and cheer me
on by clicking the subscribebutton on Apple podcast right
now. I would also love to knowwhat it is that you most enjoyed
about this episode. And what wasyour biggest takeaway? Please
(55:00):
take care and I look forward toyour company next time on the
next episode of a voice andbeyond
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