#162. The Truth about Singing: Mythbusting with Chris Johnson Part 2

Episode Transcript
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Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (00:00):
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now. It's Marissa Lee here, andI'm so excited to be sharing

(02:17):
today's interview round episodewith you. In these episodes. Our
brilliant lineup of guests willinclude healthcare
practitioners, voice educators,and other professionals who will
share their stories, knowledgeand experiences within their
specialised fields to empoweryou to live your best life.

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Whether you're a member of thevoice, community, or beyond your
voice is your unique gift. It'stime now to share your gift with
others develop a positivemindset and become the best and
most authentic version ofyourself to create greater

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impact. Ultimately, you can takecharge, it's time for you to
live your best life. It's timenow for a voice and beyond. So
without further ado, let's go totoday's episode. This week on a

(03:24):
voice and beyond. We're thrilledto have Chris Johnson returned
to the show for the secondinstalment of his informative
interview. In this episode,Chris and esteemed vocal coach
with international recognitiondelves into dispelling more of

(03:46):
the most widespread mythssurrounding singing and singing
voice training. With thebackground in vocal manual
therapy, and myofascial release,Chris has extensive experience
as both a singing teacher andvocal coach, bringing a holistic

(04:07):
perspective to his trainingapproach, acknowledging the
interconnectedness of mind, bodyand voice. As we navigate the
vast expanse of the internet, weencounter a bombardment of
information, much of which ismisleading. From YouTube

(04:29):
tutorials to social media posts,Miss Information regarding
singing techniques, and voicecoaching in our dates our
screens. In an industry lackingregulation, self proclaimed
experts promise to deliver thekey to vocal excellence. Chris

(04:52):
addresses misconceptionssurrounding crucial aspects of
vocal training, such as supportof placement, the necessity of
certain tone qualities acrossdifferent singing styles. And do
we use the diaphragm to sing?
Join us as we unravel thesemyths and gain valuable insights

(05:14):
into nurturing healthy vocalproduction. Tune in to part two
of my conversation with ChrisJohnson. And if you missed part
one, you can catch it in Episode159. So, without further ado,
let's go to today's episodetell me your thoughts on

(05:50):
placement is real.

Chris Johnson (05:53):
I used to when I first started sort of singing
more technically, I used tothink placement was a load of
trying to think of a non badword load of rubbish.

I have a swear jar that I use the most.
And get it out. Okay,

okay. Oh, no, I don't want to I don't want to
part with any cash today. So I'mgonna try real hard, but

she doesn't pay up either.

Okay, so I can do it and just not pay you. That's
fine. That yeah, yeah. Although

I did stay at her home. So if you
swear, you might end up wantingto visit.

That's fair enough. But no placement, I used
to just I used to chuck it awayas being a thing. But then, you
know, I was training myself moremechanically, if you like. So if
I was thinking about theposition of things, I guess I at
that point, I was managing myvoice very much more than I was
enjoying it. So I do recallthose times. And I think when
your attention is intomanagement, or if you strain a

(06:57):
lot, or if you actually are veryflaccid, and let's get back to
all these words, you tend toperceive sensation, a lot less
in a lot of those environments,when you're managing when you're
straining or when you'reflaccid. So it I think at that
time, it was probably muchharder for me to become aware of
vibration sensations and thenuances of them. But when I got

(07:21):
into more holistic stuff, andthat ended up being part to do
with resonance, I started tofeel things. And that became
cool, because then I could justplay around with that on stage.
But what that led me to do thenis to start to understand, Yeah,
but why, why there? What is itabout that, and then it becomes
easier to understand because weunderstand a little bit about

(07:44):
vibration felt in the body. Andthat it actually has its
frequencies where you can feelit most strongest, and it has
its frequencies where you canfeel it very little like
especially I see for sopranos,it's very hard to feel. But when
you get down to sort of middle Cand sort of slightly above in
the pasado, there's a lot ofthere's a lot of sensation there

(08:04):
possible in the receptors in theskin. So we have that. But then
we have reflection points, whichmake it much easier. So when I
talk about placement, I useexercises that are from Arthur
Leszek and Les Madsen resonantvoice therapy, but they work on
they work on points ofreflection. So if you if I have
a round lips, eval II, II, whatthat does, it puts the narrowest

(08:29):
point in my whole vocal tractagainst my gum, and right by the
teeth. So as the sound wavesfunnel them, their selves
through this, lots get reflectedback, but some come through.
Obviously, that means that thegreatest sensation and
concentration of energy is goingto be at the narrowest point,
which is going to be on my gum,so I'll probably feel something

(08:51):
on my gum. Yes, that's aconsequence of shape. I can't
place it there. I have to do theright shape. Yeah, no. Yes.
Right. So that's that's how itbuilds. But the placement, the
why placement is real is becauseif I do that enough, and if I
build that out with otherreflection points that make it
predictable, to feel somethingin somewhere like against the
soft palate, hi towards thehead, down towards the chest, I

(09:16):
can I can use those vibrationsto represent the motor pattern
in my nervous system. So again,now what I do is I don't manage
my voice in parts and pieces andplaces. But instead that gets
deferred to the sensation. So inthe end, I asked for the
sensation, but not before I'vetrained that through the shape,

(09:37):
so that so the sensation is justrepresenting the shape. And so
that's why something is somesingers have done that, without
knowing or without a process.
They've done it intuitively. Sothey say they place their voice
but what they've just done isthey've represented a shape in a
sensation, and now they just aimfor the sensation. It's very
much like the golfer just goesthrough the ball. Do they Go

(09:57):
through the ball, of course,they don't go through the ball.
The ball leaves we know that's,that's just an image, but that's
going through the ballrepresents a piece of the motor
pattern, it organises a piece ofthe motor pattern. And if you
don't go through the ball, youuse your muscles differently. So
I teach singers to representshapes and motor patterns

(10:18):
through sensations. And so thenin the end, they just go, they
just aim for the sensation. Itfeels like they placed their
voice, but it's been a process.
And that's why that's whyplacement is real.

Yes. And it's important to when you're
helping a singer, that once theyget that sensation, and their
voices ringing, it's healthy,the sound is sustainable. That's
what they're wanting to achieve.
In tone that that sensation iswhat helps them replicate that

(10:50):
once they leave.

No, it's right.
Yeah, on in bad sound on stage.
That's how they know. Yeah, Idon't know. Don't need to push
it now, even though I can't hearmyself because it feels just
right. It feels

right.
And so I will often ask thesinger, what are you feeling?
Where are you feeling anything?
And there's no wrong or righthere. It's your body? And you
can tell me whatever you thinkis going on? And then, okay,

(11:23):
well, then we go from there. ButI find that that's really the
most helpful way becausesometimes they can't hear the
difference to them. Sometimesthey'll say, but it sounds the
same to me. And I'll say, well,you're hearing something
different to what I'm hearing.
And that's okay. But are youfeeling anything different?

(11:45):
Yeah, it feels easier. Great. Sowhat is going on? Where are you
feeling? Any difference withinlike your mouth, your throat,
your chest, your head? Like,where are you feeling it? Great.
So now, you know, that is thefeeling to aim for?

Yeah, I you know, I think it's funny we're working
it in the other direction aswell is, let's say that you
start off with the concept ofplacement without first training
it through shape, which is how alot of singers are going to end
up when they go on somethinglike YouTube and see like, try
and place your voice here, placeyour voice in, there's no detail
around it. Where we use shape togenerate placement. If you start

(12:30):
with placement, your nervoussystem will try and create a
shape that will generatesomething close to what you're
asking for in terms ofplacement, so it works in the
other direction. So if somebodyasks their voice to be forward,
it's very common for them tobecome nasal 100%. Because
that's where the sensations ifthe sensation is going through

(12:50):
the nasal passages, then you'regonna get a forward sensation.
And then they're going yes, itfeels forward. They're ignoring
that it sounds nasal. Yeah.
Because they're, they'reachieving placement. And that's
why singers get totally wrappedup and wrecked with it. Because
they're beginning with placementand not understanding that it's
a consequence of shape.

Yes.
100%. Okay, this is a huge one.
Our next myth is one of the mostfrequently said things to me,
either by a student when theyfirst start, or I've heard other
singing teachers saying this,you sing from the diaphragm?
Yeah.

It's just one of those ones that when you probe
it with questions, so what doyou mean? It's very easy. I've
seen this so many times forsingers to go, Well, you know,
just, and then they realise,actually, I have no idea what it
means. So that's how it that'show the conversation usually
ends up. Yes, it's almost like abuzzword. It's like, I just need
to say it because it's a singingthing, isn't it? So it's

(13:52):
interesting how maybe it's justcaught on for that reason. But I
honestly don't know why itstarts but obviously breathing
if it's felt down there, if thein breath is felt in the
diaphragm, yeah,

the diaphragm is the major
inhalation muscle. So of course,it has a role to play, but we
don't sing from there. No,there's no larynx in there.
Either.

If you think about placement, as well, if
somebody's thinking low, it'slike if they think about chest
voice being in the chest, ifthey think about the singing
from the diaphragm, the thoughtsin their in their mind are all
down. Which may work wellbecause as we think lower and
lower, it's not unusual for thefor the chin to come down for

(14:38):
the larynx to lower for the jawto become lower. And then before
you know it is like oh, yeah, itdoes make you sound quite goofy.
And it really doesn't work witha range. It doesn't right. It's
like oh, it talks about hittinga ceiling about F is a bloody
nightmare. So cookie jarsweater. Oh is I know, coming to

(14:59):
stay with me. That's it. You gota free night one night. Yay.

Unknown (15:03):
Every swear word.

You'll have a holiday or this by the end of
it.

I'll be there for the next year. Yeah.
And in

India, I've worked with a few Indian
singers. And they actually, it'svery common for them to call
chest voice, either stomachvoice or throat voice. Oh,
really. But quite often, it'slike, yeah, my stomach voice. So
yeah, I noticed that in parts ofthe world. The reference to the
stomach is actually quite strongwhen associating it with a
strong sound. Right, calling itstomach voice. So yeah, there,

(15:36):
there's I think it gets veryconfusing. And who knows how
people use it in differentcultures and whatever. Yeah,
maybe

they're talking about verbal diarrhoea.

Oh, what's in the stomach coming out of the mouth?
Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Oh, that is so weird. A stomach voice.
I've never heard that. Honestly,I think that's a weird one. But
hey, you know, each to theirown. One thing I can say I'm not
a terminology. Nazi. In termsof, like, the language my

(16:15):
students speak, when they firstcome to me for their lessons. I
speak in their language, and wegradually start introducing new
words. Because, you know, like,it's not about me, look at me,
look how much I know. It's aboutgetting them to sing efficiently
and healthily and sustainably.
Yeah. And if it needs for us tojust speak their language, then

(16:40):
that's fine. And even I always Ilove the one to 10 scale. So how
much effort is that taking foryou, one means you're
flatlining. There's no poles and10. Like, you're lifting up
Mount Everest, like it's a realbig effort. And even though I

(17:02):
know they're like, at a two, andthey're almost flatlining, and
they say, that's a five, Bill,I'll say, Okay, well, do you
think maybe we can give it alittle bit more energy, and aim
for a seven year, so it's alwayswhat they think is going on? And
then educate them from there,and then introduce all the

(17:27):
language and the terms andeverything else that they need
to know about? Yeah,

agreed yet. And with effort as well, sometimes
you after a couple of weeks,they realise that actually, I
need to recalibrate my idea ofeffort. Actually, that's not a
lot of effort. Or that's more Ididn't think that was a lot of
effort. But now I felt what'seasy. You know, it can all
change, can't it? So yeah, thescore, I score system with
singers all the time. It'sreally, really cool.

Yeah.
Okay, myth number seven, we needto support the voice. Mm hmm.

We need to support that. So it's, again,
one of those strange subjects ofsemantics is support, as
sometimes with breath support,let's say so enough breath
pressure or flow or energy tosupport what's going on the
vocal fold level. So if that's abelted sound, it will be
different to being at falsetto,for example. So that's that's

(18:26):
kind of true. In that way. It'sobviously true. But when it
comes to support support issomething that again, when we
use the words always or never,it always comes a cropper.
There's almost never an alwaysand there's almost never I never
almost see

the caveats that's arrived saves us
from being stoned. Yeah.

stoned, though, on the proverbial on the on the,
on the judgement of theinternet, but But no, it's it's
the support always support yourvoice is it's just what that
generates in people is I alwayshave to do something with my
body to drive the air to givethat voice something to work
with. And if that, how manytimes have you seen singers just

(19:14):
take they're having trouble infalsetto, it's getting blown
out. It's tight. And they'relike, you have to have the
conversation of like, so whatare your strategies for this?
What are your strategies forthat? What do you think about
when you're doing this? And ifsomebody comes up with well, I'm
always trying to support it'salways like red flag. Red flag,
we first got to figure out whatis your support strategy? And is

(19:39):
that even relevant right now?
Because some some ways ofsinging just need you to take a
breath in and the rest of itwill just be fine. Yeah, right.
Yes. You don't need to bethinking about support and to
over support, it will overdeliver pressure flow air volume
to a register that does not needit. And so then it becomes at
Her that gets again, just takenout as an always as a taken as

(20:02):
read and singing. And I thinkwith singers, they often don't
say these things to us becausethey want, they just think it's
taken as read. So when it comesto teachers or singers, by the
way, teachers, if you're talkingin a lesson it does with the
student in conversation, itdoesn't mean you're not
providing value. Because you youonly often find out these

(20:24):
problems in conversation 100%.

It's by asking the questions, not all,
you know, asking the studentabout what they're thinking and
what they believe is going onwhat their plan and what their
strategy is. Yeah. And, youknow, is there a reason why
they're doing something aparticular way? Yeah,

that's it. And it does take if you'd go in the
Socratic route, which is whereyou basically sit there as the
completely ignorant party. Andyou question someone about what
they do in a way, that's just,I've got no preconceived ideas,
you just tell me how it plansout. And I just keep asking
questions until there's no wayout. But there's an answer

(21:09):
there. And that's how it works.
And sometimes that takes five or10 minutes. Yeah. And when it
comes to support, often, when weget those terms that seniors
just think are taken as read,everybody does this, don't they?
We don't need to talk aboutthis. You often have to spend
510 minutes getting thosethoughts out of someone's head,
and then you realise, oh,they're trying to support
everything. That's why some ofthese registers won't come or

(21:30):
some of these sounds won't come.
So I feel Yeah, you always haveto support the voice. That may
or may not be true, but I thinkposture plays a role. And again,
there is no perfect posture. Butif your body position doesn't
afford your breath system, tocalibrate itself around your

(21:51):
voice, then you will feel likeyou'll need to do something to
support it. You may need toplace an effort on something. So
posture posture allows you tothink less about support. Yes,
yeah. Right. Because it allowsthings to work. And in in in
more extreme activities of youknow, top end opera singing
probably is one of thoseactivities. incredibly high

(22:15):
belting may require a posturalor support strategy, because now
it's getting out of the realmsof sort of, I guess, you know,
voice shoots are getting intomore extremes of voice you so
you tend to have to get a tinybit more strategic?

Yes, I find that what works really well
is a primal approach. Yeah,well, exactly. That is my
favourite way to get everythingto kick in in terms of support,
when they come from that need tocommunicate, that will often
take care of the support. Realquick, smart.

Yeah. Primal sounds is one aspect I find
people use. In less act, there'swhat are called energies and
argies. So I tend to use thoseas well, like one of them is
called radiant, which is whereyou're like, Oh, I'm just a
little bit shaky, I just want toopen that present right now.
Because I'm so excited to get itlike in terms of support. That's

(23:16):
often how I use it. And thenonce again, what you've pointed
out there, which is really coolas it's not about mechanics, as
much as it is about intention,yes. And without intention, you
can't just play some mechanicalresolution to replace intention.
Intention has to be the firstthing. And if there's any extra

(23:37):
requirements for support, thatmight be mechanical, it might be
yes, it works. Well, when mybelly comes in slightly. That's
great, because that's, that'sonly a small amount of conscious
effort. Whereas intention, orcharacter organises the other 99
muscles that you couldn'tpossibly on your own. Exactly.

And I love to using not only like a
call for help when I'm trying toget them to access their belt
sound, but also using differentemotions. How does it feel if
you sing this really sad song,but you've just won the lottery.

Oh, what a dichotomy. I love it.

Oh, what if you were really angry? You
get angry sometimes, surely. Sohow would that feel in this
song? So I love playing with allthose different emotions as
well. And a lot of things dotake care of themselves, but
it's then how do we make thempermanent? You know, but it's a

(24:44):
good starting point withoutcontrolling and manipulation.
Okay, great. Myth number eight.
This is a show and tell verse.
So I call this show versus tellbecause the myth was you You
need to tell someone how to dosomething for them to be able to

(25:04):
do it. Now, I would like toargue that some teachers would
say, No, you have to be able toshow them a model for them to
know how to do it. And me beinga singing teacher that I'm
teaching pop singers who aredoing all these crazy melismas.

(25:27):
I can tell you, I can't do themmyself, but I can teach other
people to do them.

Yeah. And that is the argument, I would say
without using this as a reasonto not develop yourself as a
better demonstrator. Becausethat is, and to be fair, not
being able to demonstrate someof the more rudimentary
functions in singing is half thereason why singing teachers are
crippled with impostor syndrome.
Is because they don't feel theycan demonstrate to the level

(25:56):
they know they probably need to.
So I just want to just wanted tomake sure that that was out in
the open but yes, but the thingabout showing someone is again,
like I will show you you do ithas been again, a model of
singing teaching for centuries.
Yes, Master apprentice. Yeah.
But then for centuries,especially if we consider

(26:19):
classical the aesthetics wereall very narrow, like you had a
very specific set of aestheticsto fulfil, in order to be
credible in that thing. So then,I do feel like a little bit of
our show you, you repeatprobably works better in that
environment. But when you bringin contemporary styles and
individuality and pop, we haveto leave some room for people to

(26:43):
figure out a unique way of doingsome things. And that's what
creates them that that's how Iwhen I first taught by
demonstration, obviously, Icreated about 10 Mini fucking
me's right

100% You know what, I could not agree
with you more. I've been to aStanford's when I used to teach
school children, right, K to 12.
And they would enter a steadbuds, you could tell who their
teacher was by their sound.
Yeah. And I'd go yep, that'sfrom that she's from this

(27:18):
studio. Yep. She's from thatstudio, because they sounded
like their teacher. And so forme, I try to avoid singing as
much as possible. I do when I,you know, it's necessary, I will
or to demonstrate, you know,something that we're introducing
in terms of an exercise or awarm up that they've never done

(27:42):
before. But unless I have to, Idon't sing because I don't want
them mimicking me. And that weall learn we are hardwired to
learn by emulating andmimicking. And I don't want my
students to take on the voice ofa, you know, quite a mature
person when they're, you know,I'm at least 35. And they're

(28:08):
only 18. So that's my take onthat. Yeah,

no, I think you're right, I think you're
right. And the when it comes toteaching style, it's good for
you to be able to do like, Oh,hey, you know, here's how it
might sound. But then you'd havea whole bunch of say, examples
of other singers on Spotify,that do this same thing in
different ways. So that you cansort of dilute your sound
amongst a whole bunch of things,but still be able to help them

(28:36):
if they get stuck. So you stillhave an ability to do do it in
some level. And also, whensomeone is struggling with
something, this is also animportant part. So you don't
need to clear up every problemthat the singer encounters.
Again, demonstrating is ispretty good. But when singers
struggle, teachers jump in quiteoften, or tittle singers also

(28:58):
say, can you just show mebecause I just need someone to
tell me how to do it. And that'scool. That might be sometimes
the personality of the student.
They're just like, you tell meI'll do it. And that's, that's
the way I'm going to navigatethis process. And we could we
could get in a great bigconversation about going well,
you know, you wouldn't have thatmuch uniqueness. If that's how
we did it. You know, you'dprobably just end up sounding
like me, and they're like, don'tcare. I just want to be able to

(29:19):
sing the song. Right? And thenyou're like, Okay, that's the
students goals. That's like,Okay, you just want to sing the
song, I'll do moredemonstration, then. It's not
your it's not your desire to beselling record, but the person
who wants to sell records or besigned, and and who wants to
learn in the most sustainableway. So when someone figures
something out for themselves, itsticks in their memory, but if

(29:42):
you show them they have toremember what you said.
Discoveries stay with them, butinformation leaves them real
quickly. So every time I'mtelling someone how to do
something, it pains me insidebecause I'm thinking this is
just going to rely on yourmemory now. And I don't want it
to rely on your memory. I wantyour nervous system to go big.
Oh, yeah. And take it into thatnervous system into that Autumn

(30:04):
automation automaticity. Andself discovery is one of the
greatest ways to do that. So asa teacher, I feel like yes, I
need to facilitate the discoveryof it, rather than always
instruct it. And that's anotherreason why I don't feel we just
need to show everybodyeverything all the time. We got

(30:25):
to leave it, leave it Yes.

Well, we have to allow our students to
become autonomous. And I thinkwhen they learn, what is the
process to achieving the desiredsound? How do we get from this
point to that point, andteaching them basic process? Not
something where you have to sitat a piano and play all these

(30:51):
complicated scales? It could be?
How about you having troublewith this verse? Let's trill the
verse, or let's do use a straw.
Let's do a straw foundationthrough the verse. So we have
all these different processesand layers, and then start to
remember those. And I thinkthat's helping them to learn

(31:18):
that hey, one, you know, thereare times where I'm going to
need help. There's times mysinging teacher is not going to
be there. But I've learned thesedifferent processes and one of
them will work. Well, hopefully.

Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Give giving them all kindsof tools like that to, to
experiment. If you're on yourown, and you want to try this
out. Remember those four kindsof various voice qualities? We
did? Yeah, try and see which oneworks? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Autonomy is a big one. Butsometimes singers, they don't
want the autonomous route. Theywant the instructed route. So we
are we're sometimes at the mercyof of how the singer feels they

(31:59):
need or want to learn. It's afunny one.

Yes. And they all learn differently. Some
of them want it explained, someof them want to hear it. Some of
them want to see youdemonstrating what it looks like
on a bot, you know. So yeah,some of them need to feel it
themselves. I find most of themneed to feel it themselves.

Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, myth

number nine, beauty as a vocal goal. So
we all wanting to achieve beautyas singers, or how important is
beauty.

And beauty is applauded as well. Yeah.

But is beauty not subjective. It

is subjective.
Although as a culture, we sortof, we do agree often on what we
consider to be beautiful. Youknow, collectively, there would
be more beautiful voices thathave more purity. And again,
they would come into genderstereotypes as well. Especially,
you know, how sort of bornfemale voices would be viewed in

(33:04):
terms of beauty. And the rougherthey are, the less beautiful
they are labelled. But yet, weknow that we know in all kinds
of voice qualities rough,smooth, cracky, broken, stable.
There's a lot of beauty to bediscovered in those in terms of
expression, the storytelling,that's not what beauty is. But

(33:24):
this idea of beauty and purity,especially. It does lead singers
to to go down that route.
Because also what people sayquite often I hear this so
often, they go up, somebodycomes up to me and says your
tone is just so beautiful. It'sjust so beautiful. But what they

(33:45):
express is like, oh, but people,they don't sort of buy my
records that there is buying itbecause when it's this beautiful
tone that somebody of atraditional mindset really
appreciate and applaud you forthey lean into that but to
create a lot of smoothness andlegato and eliminate all of the
non beautiful things. It can bevery boring and is very boring.

Oh, I find it excruciatingly boring.

Yeah, right. It doesn't have to be fair.

Yeah.
And I mean, as CCM singers, wedo often create unconventional
sounds, to express a particularemotion, or as part of our
storytelling, or it could be oursignature sound. And I mean,
I've heard people saying, youknow, Bob Dylan, he's a great

(34:38):
singer. He's got a beautifulvoice, and I'm thinking, There's
nothing beautiful about it. He'sa great storyteller. His lyrics
are amazing. But would you sayhe has beauty of tone? No, but
yeah,

right. Yeah,

dear bride.

It's subject Yes, absolutely.

What do you say Mick Jagger has a
beautiful voice? No. But thenother people go, Oh, he's got a
beautiful voice, you know, sothey get the whole thing. What
is beauty? It's very subjective.

Absolutely. And is its net beautiful is the
whole thing that I'm listeningto speaking to me on a certain
level with a with a message, anddoes it contain that that's
that's the beauty. It's like thenet effects. Let's not let's,
let's not always just place thevoice as being the sole provider
of the beauty, or the singerfeeling like that's what that

(35:36):
their job, I have to carryeverything. It's like no the
mute, everything does that. Eventhe melody is beautiful. You
don't need a voice to carry amelody to get beauty because
it's often written into themelody and the intervals and the
chords. So you have that. But Ithink I think as well when it
comes to beauty and if somebodyhas been lauded for the beauty.

(35:59):
Again, this is the my experienceof it is functionally that leads
the singer to use their voice ina very, I guess you could call
it balanced way it's not extraloud isn't go breathy.
Everything's very even. And whenyou take that as a muscle
pattern, or I guess you couldcall it muscle memory for them
to do other tasks like callingand like going breathy, they

(36:23):
find it impossible. It's likeeverything they sing out has
that same evenness. And it's acomplete head wrecker to do
other sounds. So you know, the,the Endeavour for beauty, it's
not just this not this not justa sound thing. It's not just an
interesting but functionallyencourages the system to do a

(36:44):
lot less. And they find it sohard, so hard to get out of that
to become more expressive.

I know you can tell when someone is
focusing on beauty of tone,rather than the storytelling. I
can see it on their on mystudents faces. So I will ask
them at the end of their singinga particular song. What were you
thinking about when you weresinging that? Oh, I was thinking

(37:15):
about my voice and how Isounded. And I'll say, well,
where's the storytelling inthat? Yeah, so beauty that
trying to achieve beauty ofsound. It does get in the way of
storytelling and beingvulnerable, and expressing
yourself and sharing the storythat you have to share with the

(37:36):
audience.

Yeah, you Sir, do you find also its tempo often
find the singers who arefocusing on that I just always
on the balance because it givesthem enough time to manage their
voice. Well,

my scenes are quite a mixed bag.
And the ones that do come in andthey say that they're inspired
by Adele and they love the bigballads. The first thing I do
when it comes to because I haveto choose one of their
repertoire pieces. I'll givethem something totally
different. I'll find an artistthat isn't a big belter. Someone

(38:13):
like Georgia Smith, or I don'tknow, I can't even think there's
a lot of singers out there thatthat are not the big Belters,
and they use all parts of theirvoices. So I introduce those
songs and those artists to them.
So they start to explore thefull range of their voices. They

(38:34):
don't put limitations on theirvoices. That's one thing. I
really work on getting them intothe mindset that this is a safe
space for you to make any sound.
Some of them you're going tolove. Some of them you may hate

(38:54):
and you'll never want to useagain. There's no wrong or
right. Let's just see what yourvoice is capable of use this
space as a science laboratory.
And let's experiment. And if wehave a failed science
experiment, so be it. Becauseguess what, no one's gonna die
in here.

Yeah, like that analogy. Yeah.

Yep. So let's explore. Let's play. Let's
just go through the motions andsee what happens. Let's just see
what ends up happening. What'sthe worst case scenario you have
a blowout? Well, I hate to tellyou I sometimes have them when I
teach. Because I go I get reallyexcited and I'm still talking

(39:44):
and then I go to sing but Ihaven't kind of given myself
that moment. Okay. Yeah, youknow, so Did you hear me have a
blowout from time to time? Oh,don't really care. That's okay.
But this is the place to do it.
Yes, you don't want to do it onstage, but you are perfectly

(40:07):
fine to do to explore and havefun and make those mistakes in
here. Yeah,

yeah, it's great, isn't it? When you get when you
get that art, when you get thatsinger sometimes it just kind
of, you know, the exercises getprogressively weirder and
weirder, because you know,they're trusting you more and
more, until you bring out thesekinds of funny sounds. And they
just stop for a minute go.
Seriously, is this gettingposted on the Internet or
something? Because this is justinsane. Yeah, but yeah, you
gradually see your ability tobuild up those, as you call them

(40:39):
the science experiments orwhatever, over time. Yeah. And
then you find somethinginevitably amazing, don't you? I
know.

I know.
And even the students themselvespseudo the things that they
discover about their voices byletting go of all those
shackles, either that a priorteacher has told them something,
or someone laughed at them atschool when they were at school
and see the school assembly andthey hit a wrong note. Anyway,

(41:11):
yeah, it's very interesting.
We're so messed up as singers.
Yeah, we truly are. We are thebiggest, most messed up a lot of
people

don't want you to watch you know what I think
Marissa, what you've said thereis, I can understand why you say
that. Because I've had this I'vehad a similar experience to you,
which is, when you've worked ina institution, where all
disciplines are on the samediploma, do you have it where
they kind of all come in and atthe end of the week, they all

(41:49):
play the song specificguitarists have been doing
guitar diploma and, and you seethem all together. And all
there's always variation, butthe the singers versus the
guitar, like the guitaristsalways really want to be this
thing is really to be you know,

they think they're the lead
instruments.

Yes, it's yeah, it's always it's always the
same. So we get to see that weget to see how certain groups of
people or certain groups ofinstruments all seem to behave
like as personalities don'tpigeonhole them. But there is
some similarity. So I think Ithink I feel you as to why we
kind of like think that way. I

know. I know. Okay, myth number 10.
Because we're going way overtime, so I'm thinking this is
going to end up being a doubleepisode. Is that okay with you?
Of course, yeah. Okay, becausewe're nearly there. Alright.
Myth number 10. Chris, CCMsingers don't need resonance.

(42:46):
Only classical singers do. Oh,yeah.

Well, that's a good one, isn't it? Oh, that's a
good one. It's not it's nottrue. But it's a but it is a
good one.

Yeah, because and I've heard this from
a very highly acclaimed singingteacher, that CCM singers don't
need resonance because we'remiked. Now, to remain even for
sustainability, we use Twain. Itmay not be the same resonance as

(43:21):
a classical singer. But I knowthat twang for me is my
lifesaver. Even when I speak,even when I'm teaching these
long days, even in my speakingvoice, there's that little bit
of tweaking and it's helping meit's my preservation. So that's

(43:41):
my version of like, what I thinkresonances for CCM singers.
What's yours?

Yeah, I agree with you. There's different
resonant strategies. Andresonance is a driver of the
vocal folds vibration. So theless resonance that singers can
take advantage of, the more theother parts of the voice or the
system have to pick up theslack. So they'd have to
probably use breath moreaggressively. The vocal cords

(44:14):
may need to squeeze together abit more to return the energy
that isn't been gained by aresonance of some kind. So we do
labour the rest of our voice ifwe don't have something on the
resonance side to support it,yes. But in classical singing,
if if that person is lumping inthe word resonance to the

(44:37):
singers formant strategy, whichis a very specific strategy and
classical that allows you to beheard over a 65 piece orchestra
with a microphone and heard lotsof doats so many uses for it.
Yes, so many uses. town crier.
Oh, yeah. But no yet so thatthat resonance strategy would
certainly not agree so well witha kanban So Mike, you know, and

(44:59):
if and a 10k rig, let's put itthat way Exactly. It's not going
to do well with that. But Buttwang twang is a form of
resonant strategy for sure. Andeven Yeah, even vowels, all
singers know that certain vowelswork better on certain pitches.
And occasionally that's becauseof biomechanics a little bit.
But more more often than not,it's because it reorganises

(45:23):
resonances in a way that givesthat voice energy and then
doesn't labour the rest of thesystem. Yes, so and if we talk
about placement, contemporarysingers, as well as classical
singers all describe placementbecause they are describing
interactions and reflections ofenergy that you could describe
as resonance. So we can't haveplacement or those sensations,

(45:45):
if we don't leverage resonancein some way. The thing about
resonance as well, I find, whichis important to say is, if you
resonate really, reallystrongly, ie if you choose a
vowel or a resonant strategythat is designed to really put a
lot of energy into the system,then that has to be balanced

(46:07):
with the effort that the vocalfolds make. For example, if you
put a really strong glottalonset, on to a very powerful
resonant strategy, your chancesof getting injured go up quite
quite strongly, because that theforce of the vocal folds coming
together as strong, but then theeffect of resonance is to

(46:27):
increase the intensity of thevibration of the vocal folds as
well. So if you if you put themboth together, it's very easy
for you to overcook it. So let'ssay you were a classical teacher
who's dealing with a singer whowas singing rock with glottal
onset, if you did place yourresonant strategy upon that you
would absolutely cook thatsinger within a few weeks,

(46:49):
probably or even in that moment.
So it is important to say that,if resonant strategies are going
to be transferred over to fromone genre to another, they can't
just come as they are. OtherOther things, especially vocal
foreclosure also need to bealtered. Or if you want to keep

(47:10):
the glottal onset, you probablydon't need a resonant strategy,
that's going to put a maximisethe amount of resonance
possible. It needs to be enoughresonance to sustain the voice,
which is why twang is good,because it adds energy in nice
ways. But it doesn't, it doesn'tput too much amplitude of that
energy in it supports it andjust in just the right

(47:31):
intensity, so you can use itwith those more closed sounds
those more adapted sounds.

Exactly.
No, I love that. Okay, this onehere, I pose the question. In a
Facebook forum, not so long ago.
So put the question in, I readthe first couple of responses.
One was yours. And then becauseI'm gonna go go to social media

(48:00):
very often. I don't know whathappened after building, but it
was mix is a register. So yeah,you know, I this is one of the
biggest debates. And it's, andit's such a buzzword, you know,
we talked about some of thebuzzwords, it is a massive

(48:24):
thing, I feel part of whatpeople believe MCs to be even
varies by continent. What someAmericans believe MCs to be that
I think they believe it to behead boys like with heaps of
twang. And then what people fromthe UK believe it to be, is

(48:49):
different. And then there'speople that just don't think
it's a thing at all, because youcan't put head voice and chest
voice in a blender and pressstart and blend them together.
And my feeling is that we'realways mixing at some level.

(49:11):
Yeah, there's always a blend ofthe TA the CT, that I know goes
beyond that, but I feel thatwe're always blending.

Yeah, and that I think it's a difficult argument
to have not that they werearguing different, a difficult
conversation to have. Yeah, isbecause there's the perceptual
aspects. So I think withoutgetting too deep into the sort
of mechanics of it perceptuallysomeone can throw those two
registers into a blender, theycan think I'm going to have 50%

(49:46):
Chance 50% head and in somepeople that will generate what
what you might see as somethingthat would sound quite chesty,
but travel really high. Yes,that doesn't necessarily mean
that that's exactly what's goingon at the vocal fold level, but
it's it It could be a useful lieto the singer. And that's quite
possible. So when you take inperception, you might even get a

(50:07):
singer like, let's say thatmight be like it, like a really
high voice like a soprano. Andthat's that singer may well see
MCs as chest voice all the wayup because their vocal
physiology is different. Theirfeeling of it is different. And
they may, they may think I justseen one voice all the way to
the top. Whereas a baritone orsomebody with a much deeper

(50:30):
voice, they often describe ofhaving to have to let go a lot
more like I feel I feel it moreof a change more of a, I have to
drop some weight from the bottomfor this to be possible. And so
those two singers describe polaropposites. The baritone might
say, yes, my head voice, butjust with more, and the soprano
may say my chest voice goes allthe way to the top. Yeah. And

(50:53):
that can be that can be a vocal,full physiology, thing, that and
coordination and even just thesize and that of the vocal folds
that allows those two singers toexperience those two things so
differently. So it almostdoesn't matter what goes on
underneath. So we can'tspeculate as to what the
mechanics are, if we willdiscover that the mechanics do

(51:13):
something. And let's say we, andwe're not going to because we
can't stick needles in vocalfolds without breaking ethical
rules, we're probably nevergoing to know until we develop
something. So but if we were toknow that information would
probably either corroborate thesoprano or corroborate the

(51:33):
baritone or create a brand newsomething in the middle. And
that may get those two people tosecond guess what they're even
doing. Right, which was workingin the first place. Yes. And now
everybody's going towardsfunctional truth, but don't
worry about functional truth.
It's really about imagery thatyou create for yourself, and
that you can help somebodycreate for themselves. So we I

(51:54):
think, with MCs, when we discussit, we've got to be careful that
it doesn't change what peopledo, if it's working. Because
that's the problem with I think,the 20th century, we got so much
knowledge about how stuffworked, we took that forward
into voice lessons, especiallyabout placement, can't place
your voice. It's true. You know,science tells us whatever, and

(52:15):
then we realise that we actuallyknow it. Yeah, you may explain
it like that. But it still worksas a concept. So with MCs, I
think we've got a, we've got aworry about that. But the way
that mix has been describedthese days, it could be an
acoustic mix, it could be thatthe way a vowel is shaped,
changes energy in the system.

(52:36):
And when energy lowers a littlebit in the system, we may
perceive that as a as a registerchange. But really, really, it's
just a sort of a stepping downof how much energy in the system
in a in a distinctive moment,which we perceive as a
registered change. But you maystill be in chest voice from
bottom to top, but it's thevowel that gives you the sense

(52:57):
of of energy change that weattribute to being all more
heady, when it may not be. Andvice versa. So the combination
of all of these things makesmix, and I'm big, useless pain
in the neck. Again, yes.

I don't use the word in my lessons, to
be honest, because I don't wantto confuse students. You know, I
don't say, oh, let's use mix. Ijust try and get them to create
the sound in a healthy,sustainable manner, that they're

(53:33):
not then getting in their headsabout what it is. Yeah,

no, I agree with you, you lead with the
experience. And if it turns outthat the conversation would be,
let's say that I'm a big fan ofusing intensity, instead of
saying, I'll make it more mixie.
It's more like, okay, we're justnot gonna do that with quite as
much gusto. And that's probablygoing to get close. Maybe we'll
use a bit more vibrato. And itmight sound a bit closer to a

(53:59):
register that that a directormight say, oh, yeah, that yeah,
you know, the more mix you want.
So sometimes I do clarify itwith my students, because
they're directed to be moremixie on on the west end, I
guess. Yeah. Yeah. And if theydon't understand what it is,
they can't fulfil thedirections, but that's the

(54:19):
reason why I would use it moreoften. Yeah,

I will.
I don't work with any musicaltheatre singers. So I don't have
to well, not currently anyway,so I don't have to worry about
it. It's normally posing

as it would just master their own destiny and you
know, when it comes as it comes.

Okay, we're at the last one Chris.
We've got there. And and youknow what, with this one, we're
going to address the elephant inthe room. See, you thought there
were only goats.

I'd rather goats because they're a little less
dangerous. Okay,

but there was there's An elephant in
the room here. Okay, so mythnumber 14, you must have
classical lessons. If you wantto sing any style of music.

Yeah, that's probably the oldest one, isn't
it? All right.

That's the elephant. Yep.

And that is, again, that is a myth. Again,
we're labelling it as the myth.
But I know there's loads andloads of classical teachers out
there who would also understandthat, you know, classical
singing is is not the standardor the gold standard. And what
classical singing could do forsomebody is it may encourage
them to use their voice indifferent ways. It may encourage

(55:42):
them to have a very strong soundand extend range quite often if
you're going to be working oncertain types of repertoire. But
those those skills are alsoattainable in other forms of
training. It's not thatclassical singing generally did
them. But when singers, let'ssay, six, a singer, let's say
they started in contemporarymusic. And they took some

(56:04):
classical lessons, if they gotbetter, great. That's because
they took some lessons, they gotsome function, you could
attribute that to the genre ofclassical, there's probably not
it. But quite often, what you'vesaid about giving singers very
different things is crosstraining, is is very much like a
really valuable thing forsingers to do. And let's say

(56:27):
that, if you got better fromclassical training, and it made
your contemporary sound better,it's not necessarily that the
classical training was the goldstandard, it was that your you
use your voice in a more variousway during that period, which is
only good for an instrumentvariety avoids getting stuck in
one thing. And if we get stuckin one thing, we might be really

(56:49):
good at that. But the tendencyto get more tight, or be
susceptible to injury andfatigue, yes, they grow if you
use your voice in a narrow way.
So sometimes I feel likeclassical singing gets
attributed the gold standard,but all it provided somebody
with was cross training was avariety of tasks. And that's why

(57:13):
I think musical theatregenerates some absolutely
incredible functional singers,is because they don't usually
rest in one thing they have tobe, they have to be old, young,
angry, sad, high, low classical,contemporary, arguably, that
might not let them arrive on themost stylistic of identities,

(57:35):
right. So that's the trade off.
But it does allow them to usetheir voice in such various ways
that they can actually performmany shows a week, and sing
really incredible stuff, becausethey have that various training.
Contemporary singers who teachpop, could easily bring that
into their singing lessons inways that don't involve any

(57:55):
classical repertoire. Or anyrepertoire. Even that steps out
of that single genre, you canstill, you could still sculpt
that training. At the end of theday, classical singing has a
longer history of study. So you,it's obviously going to have a
probably, I guess, moretechniques at the end of the day
to apply to singers. But that'sjust from its long history. We

(58:18):
could bring that informationinto contemporary and make it
fit. It's just that contemporaryvocal coaching is probably only
really been around for about 70years, as opposed to hundreds
400 years. So yes, you know, wejust we just need to make sure
that all the information goes inapart. And then it becomes a

(58:38):
part of style agnosticinformation. It's not about
classical, it's just classicalas contributed a lot of the
knowledge and information over alonger period of time doesn't
make it better. Yes,

when when I was in the US, I did some
teaching over there. And it wasI taught at three different
locations, universities overthere, where I was working, and
doing master classes anddelivering presentations to

(59:13):
classical people, because therewas a they only had a classical
voice department. But I taughtCCM and so I had classical
teachers in the room I hadmembers of nats the local
chapter, members turned up. Andit was so interesting watching

(59:33):
their faces as I taught, and asI delivered information, and
they're going, Wow, right? We dothat. You you do that too.

All right, lovely, some common ground, they

were finding common ground and also
that basically my philosophieswere the same. And just because
I teach CS see em, I am still alegitimate teacher. And I still
have certain principles, andcertain things that I teach that

(01:00:10):
classical people teach. But it'sjust the output is different. So
we're working towards thedifferent output. But a lot of
the steps are still the same.
We're still looking for a lot ofthe same things. In terms of
like, store, a brief store, gota place store to support

(01:00:33):
whatever it is we've talkedabout tonight. I'm sure all
classical teachers do it too.
But we're just looking for adifferent sound. Yeah, the
aesthetic is different. But weare still teaching singing, and
still teaching the instrument.
Good singing is good singing.

(01:00:58):
Efficient singing is efficientsinging. So sustainable singing
is sustainable singingirrespective of style. Yeah,

Chris Johnson (01:01:06):
absolutely. And I have the I'm kind of the same as
you, you know, because manytexts are classical. A lot of
the experimentation oftechniques and things I've
learned over the years will bemajority classical based. But
the the experimentation andshushing it with other forms of
of information, allow us toeither discern what's going to

(01:01:30):
be useful in the pop world,exactly what's close, but needs
to be modified. Yeah, that'snearly it. Yeah, that's gonna be
and so we can thank classicalfor that for its long history of
being able to provide a lot ofobservation. And classical, we
can't forget, as well as gonethrough many changes, let's say
before the invention of like,laryngoscope. And, you know,

(01:01:52):
before Garcia and all of theindustrial age, classical
singing was very much like howwe how singers do pop these
days, which is very intuitive,not based around mechanics,
because they weren't really onthat anatomical sort of, they
weren't dissecting bodies atthat point in time. They weren't

(01:02:13):
just looking at stuff in thethroat through a mirror. They
didn't get tainted by mechanics,biomechanics, and they did a lot
of it through prime orexpression, you know, just
fears, you know, beingphysically robust. And all those
things. Yes. So you know, therewas a, there was a time in
classical from what I can see ofthe history anyway, where that

(01:02:34):
probably would have transferredto pop much better than all of
this mechanical 20th centurystuff that seems to be like, No,
you've got to keep your larynxlow manually and all that stuff.
It didn't, it didn't quite end,even breathing was much simpler
before. Biomechanics gotinvolved. Yeah, opera, it was it
was a whole self breath. Itwasn't a mechanical, this

(01:02:57):
ribbon, that ribbon, twist thatone and pull that in. It wasn't
any of that was so classical isalmost taken the hits for us on
that as well. But how it thengets permeated out by I guess, I
guess purists in some way. It'sthe it's the purest version of
that classical teacher that thatactually almost demonises some

(01:03:17):
of the stuff that goes on incontemporary but exactly.
Fortunately, I see them as the,the more than minority these
days, because I think they're, Ithink the education is going
out. And the acceptance and theunderstanding and the, like you
say the common ground isgrowing.

Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (01:03:33):
It is it is. And you know, I felt very
privileged to be a part of that.
When I was teaching. I, Ihonestly was so grateful that I
was able to, to impart what Iknew, and that they could
actually relate to it. And, andthey, they saw the similarity.
So it was really, really cool.

(01:03:59):
Now, we're winding up, Chris,this has been way too much fun.

Thank you for having me again. Yeah, I always
enjoy.

Yes. And I love all the information. You
are truly such a knowledgeablesinging teacher and vocal coach,
and I have the utmost respectfor you. I think you're doing
great work. And I know you'resharing it through your teacher
training. What so tell us wherethat's out at the moment.

Thank you. I appreciate you too, by the way,
at the moment. Yeah, I've got acouple of things going on
teacher training, I run througha company called Teach voice.com
Which is where vocal coachesprimarily who are working in
contemporary or quite oftenthey've been classical but are
moving into more contemporaryfields if you like. I've created

(01:04:48):
a big programme a membership forthem, but there's a there's a
free community where I helppeople with questions,
everything we were talking aboutsort of today, you know, there's
a lot of conversation in there.
But then there's a programme ofteacher training that I do for
those guys that allows them tosort of not go through a course,
but rather just dip into theseknowledge gaps that they have.
Because I think we have toacknowledge vocal coaches come

(01:05:11):
from such different places ofeither education conception
style, yes, to run them througha course doesn't make any sense.
It's got to be like, Okay, wehave conversations, they take
assessments into their singers,and then the assessments
identify where the gaps are, intheir own knowledge. And then

(01:05:31):
they kind of pick in so I have agreat time with about 100
teachers at the moment are inthe programme. Wow.

That's amazing. Well done.

Thank you. That's really great. And they are so
cool. Yeah, congratulations,they really help each other as
well. We have two group callsevery week. So actually, some of
those teachers have been in theprogramme for three years. So
actually, I've got to know a lotof them really, really well. And
so we do we do all kinds ofcollaboration. And, and they
they almost mastermind at times,you know, there's a lot of input

(01:06:04):
and expertise that can come inon those group calls, as well as
specialist information that Imight bring, as well.

That is amazing. So where can people
find out about this trainingthat you're offering,

where you can go if you're, if this is either for
singers or teachers, so if yougo to teach voice.com forward
slash email, what you can do isif you want to find out more
about it, you can enter in youremail there it will say, Are you
a singer do it here are yourvocal hooks do it here. But
whichever one you add, or placeyour email in, you'll get an
email straight back with with afree piece of training. Just to

(01:06:40):
allow just allow you to kind oflike experience something
different. But also that'll giveyou information as well on what
the what my various pieces oftraining contain, the features
that they have, and the outcomesthat you can expect from them.
Amazing.

So we will add the links to your
training in the show notes tomake things easier for anyone
that's just missed that. Okay,so what are you up to next? I
believe there could be someoverseas trouble. Am I allowed
to say? Yes,

you are. Yeah, I'm going to I don't have the
exact details right now. But ifyou're listening in 2024, that
is the year isn't it? I alwaysforget it is this me know,
right? Flying by okay, I'm stillwriting 2023 Occasionally. So if
it's 2024. Then in August, ifyou keep an eye out for my mug,

(01:07:35):
on the singing wherever you getyour singing information, I'll
be there in in Brisbane, inAustralia in August, which is
going to be absolutelybrilliant, roughly about the
sort of 22nd or 21st. And itwill be a rather large sort of
almost like singing festivalwhere there's loads of training,
but it's going to be quite bigapplicable to singers, coaches,

(01:07:57):
voiceover artists, and also someof that some of the medical
fraternity as well. That'sincredible.

Wow, okay. Well, anyone that's here
in Australia look out forChris's mug.

Blazing I'm hoping it's gonna be on
Billboard's you know, but Idoubt I doubt I'll be loaded up
that much.

I'm sure but for all the wrong reasons.

Have you seen this man? Please call this
number.

Wanted Dead or Alive? Oh my gosh. Well,
thank you so much, Chris. It hasbeen such a joy. Honestly, I
love hanging out with you.
doesn't even feel like it was aninterview to live it was was too
much fun for an interview. Butno, I truly appreciate you and
all the work that you're doingand your contribution to our

(01:08:52):
singing voice community isunbelievable. It's so valued. So
love your work. Keep it up andsee you next time. I'm looking
at that mug.

Thank you. Yeah, no, it's great to be a part of
the community and offersomething that whatever I can,
I'm here to offer it. So thanksfor having me once again. Thank

you.
Bye, Chris. Bye. Bye bye. Thankyou so much for listening to
this episode of a voice andbeyond. I hope you enjoyed it as
now is an important time for youto invest in your own self care,
personal growth and education.

(01:09:35):
Use every day as an opportunityto learn and to grow so you can
show up feeling empowered andready to live your best life. If
you know someone who will alsobe inspired by this episode,
please be sure to copy and pastethe link and share it with them.
Or share it on social media anduse the hashtag a voice and

(01:09:59):
beyond And I promise you, I amcommitted to bringing you more
inspiration and conversationsjust like this one every week.
And if you would like to helpme, please rate and review this
podcast and cheer me on byclicking the subscribe button on
Apple podcast right now. I wouldalso love to know what it is

(01:10:22):
that you most enjoyed about thisepisode and what was your
biggest takeaway? Please takecare and I look forward to your
company next time on the nextepisode have a voice and beyond

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