This week on A Voice and Beyond, we are diving into the very important topic of neurodiversity. We are thrilled to welcome back Dr. Shannon Coates for a compelling two-part interview on neurodiversity-affirming voice pedagogy. Dr. Shannon has been a strong advocate for fostering inclusivity, developing support strategies, and enhancing our understanding of individual student needs within the singing voice community. Her efforts aim to normalize and eliminate the stigma surrounding neurodivergence.
Dr. Shannon Coates, an esteemed educator and international presenter on voice pedagogy, is also the creator of The Vocal Instrument 101 Online Course and VoicePed UnDegree. She has been a prominent voice in advocating for neurodiversity within vocal pedagogy. In this interview, Shannon will begin by discussing the various types of neurodivergence, the associated behaviour patterns, and the current diagnostic processes.
Dr. Shannon will help us understand how neurodivergence can manifest in our teaching studios and how we can adopt more effective teaching strategies for neurodivergent learners. She provides valuable insights into recognizing our own biases and addressing their impact on our teaching. Particularly, Dr. Shannon emphasizes creating a welcoming space where all students feel seen and valued, regardless of their support needs, life experiences, or identities.
This is a powerful and thought-provoking interview with Dr. Shannon Coates that every singing voice teacher and beyond should listen to. Join us for this essential conversation that promises to enlighten and inspire. Remember, this is part 1 of our 2-part interview with Dr. Shannon, and part 2 will be released in the episode to follow.
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In This Episode
0:00 - Sponsored Ad: Vocal Process Teacher Accreditation Program
7:02 - Neurodiversity in singing voice pedagogy
20:22 - ADHD, autism, and mental health diagnosis and awareness
27:13 - Sponsored Ad: Free Book ‘Defeat your cravings’ by Dr. Glenn Livingston
35:50 - Neurodiversity and communication challenges
43:25 - Accommodating neurodiverse singers in voice lessons
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(02:46):
It's Marissa Lee here, and I'mso excited to be sharing today's
interview round episode withyou. In these episodes, our
brilliant lineup of guests willinclude healthcare
practitioners, voice educators,and other professionals who will
share their stories, knowledgeand experiences within their
(03:09):
specialized fields to empoweryou to live your best life.
Whether you're a member of thevoice, community, or beyond your
voice is your unique gift. It'stime now to share your gift with
others develop a positivemindset and become the best and
(03:32):
most authentic version ofyourself to create greater
impact. Ultimately, you can takecharge, it's time for you to
live your best life. It's timenow for a voice and beyond. So
without further ado, let's go totoday's episode.
(03:57):
This week on a voice and beyond,we are diving into the very
important topic of neurodiversity. We are thrilled to
welcome back Dr. Shannon Coatesfor a compelling two part
interview on neuro diversityaffirming voice pedagogy. Dr.
(04:19):
Shannon has been a strongadvocate for fostering
inclusivity developing supportstrategies and enhancing our
understanding of individualneeds within the singing voice
community. Her efforts aimed tonormalize and eliminate the
(04:39):
stigma surrounding neurodivergence. Dr. Shannon, and
esteemed educator andinternational presenter on voice
pedagogy is also the creator ofthe vocal instrument 101 online
course and voice paired ondegree She has been a prominent
(05:02):
voice in advocating for Neurodiversity within vocal pedagogy.
In this interview, Dr. Shannonwill be discussing the various
types of neuro divergence, theassociated behavior patterns and
the current diagnosticprocesses. Dr. Shannon will help
(05:24):
us understand how neurodivergence can manifest in our
teaching studio, and how we canadopt more effective teaching
strategies for neurodivergentlearners. She provides valuable
insights into recognizing ourown biases, and addressing their
(05:47):
impact on our teaching.
Particularly, Dr. Shannonemphasizes creating a welcoming
space where all students feelseen and valued, regardless of
their support needs, lifeexperiences, or identities. This
is a powerful and most thoughtprovoking interview with Dr.
(06:11):
Shannon coats that every singingvoice teacher and beyond should
listen to join us for thisessential conversation that
promises to enlighten andinspire. Remember, this is part
one of our two part discussionwith Dr. Shannon, and part two
(06:34):
will be released in the episodeto follow. So without further
ado, let's go to today'sepisode.
(06:54):
Welcome back to a voice andbeyond. We have Dr. Shannon
Coates. How are you Shannon?
Dr Shannon Coates (07:02):
I'm very well
thank you, Dr. Marissa, we
couldn't be far more return thedoctors
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (07:10):
from one
job to another. Look, I am so
grateful to have you here today.
And we're going to talk about areally important topic. And it's
a topic that affects all of usin one way or another. And we're
going to talk about how itimpacts us in the singing
(07:30):
teaching studio. So, Shannon,you're an educator, you're an
international presenter on vocalpedagogy. You're the creator of
the vocal instrument 101 onlinecourse and boys paired on degree
and we see you pop up a lot onsocial and I love watching.
Dr Shannon Coates (07:56):
You just so
cool in there. No, thank you.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (07:59):
You just
have such a way about you. I
just love it. But before we getstarted, I think it's really
important that we put adisclaimer out there. Because
this is a great responsibilitythat you're taking on talking
about this topic on neurodivergence CS. So the disclaimer
(08:22):
is that you're not a medicaldoctor, or a health care
practitioner. And we are goingto talk about concepts around
neuro divergence. And you'regoing to respond to the
questions that I'll be askingyou based on your own lived
experiences with neurodivergence, your training and
(08:45):
work in this area, as well asthe work and the words of those
from the neurodivergentcommunity. Now, our focus and
our intention with thisinterview because once again, I
feel like we have to be veryclear with with where we're
heading with all of this is tobuild an advocate for
(09:10):
inclusivity support strategiesto help develop an understanding
of individual student needs andto normalize and to take away
the stigma attached to neurodivergence. Yeah, so that is the
disclaimer and our intentionhere with this interview. So
(09:35):
beautiful. I know that you havedone a lot of work in this area.
I know you have been aspokesperson in this area. You
have waved the flag in thisarea. So another before we
start, a lot of before we startbefore when it comes to neuro
(09:56):
divergences, how should we referto them do We refer to them as
issues, disorders, problems,what is the language that we
should be using? Yeah,
Dr Shannon Coates (10:08):
it's such a
good question. And the and I
must say, also a realconversation within the
neurodivergent community,especially within the Autistic
community, and also within thecommunity of folks who have
multiple neuro divergences. Andthe, I'm not gonna say the
(10:28):
overwhelming consensus, I'mgoing to say the folks who are
doing the education around thetopic of neurodiversity
affirming culture,neurodiversity movement, and the
folks who are doing that kind ofwork, who are neurodivergent, I
am neurodivergent, I'm an ADHDperson. That's a form of neuro
divergence that folks are doingthat education, we are
(10:52):
advocating for an understandingthat these differences in the
brain are literally just thatthey are differences in the
brain differences in ways ofprocessing, differences in ways
of gathering information and inways of then bringing
information out. So because theyare differences, and because
(11:16):
these are things that are notmeasured, you know, we we think
of the norm or I'm putting thatbig quotes there, that the what
we have thought of as the norm,has become the medical norm, as
well. So that has become thequote, healthy or the normal.
And overwhelmingly, that tendsto be the folks you know, who
(11:41):
are neurotypical, that's theother side of divergent, so
neurotypical who are ablebodied, who are white, who are
sis, who I mean, all of those,quote, norms, at some point were
medicalized as well as being thenormal thing. And so for a very
long time, and still to thisday, in the DSM, for example, we
(12:05):
have names such as autismspectrum disorder, attention
deficit, hyperactivity disorder,syndrome, all of those things,
that all of those terms thatcome from the medical field that
are using are saying this,compared to what we say is
(12:26):
normal. And what we say is,quote, ordered. These are all
disordered. And so theneurodiversity movement, the
neurodiversity affirmingmovement, the folks in the
neurodivergent community, theconversation is around. This is
not disorder, but different. Sothis is perhaps a typical,
(12:49):
there's lots of conversationaround what the actual language
is that we want to use, yes, butperhaps a typical divergent, all
of those sorts of things. Sothen, we often then hear people
say, you know, describethemselves as being, for
example, I describe myself asbeing an ADHD or, or an autistic
person, or, you know, lots ofdifferent words that describe
(13:14):
the thing without saying it'sdisordered or without referring
to the fact that it's adisorder. Yeah. So when we talk
about the language, and the waywe describe, as soon as I hear
people saying, this is, youknow, these problems, these
challenges, these disorders,these all of those kinds of
(13:36):
languages or disabilities,especially if they're outside of
the community, that speaks to meof a medical model, and have a
comparison from what I think isnormal, big quotes, again, to
what is abnormal or unhealthy,so healthy to unhealthy or
(13:56):
ordered to disordered and thatis not the model that has been
useful for the vast majority ofthe neurodivergent community.
And that is a whole part of themovement of the neurodiversity
movement and neurodiversityaffirming movement is to change
that conceptualization and as hesaid in the intro, to normalize,
(14:17):
remove stigma, big part of thedisability part, put that in
quotes as well around forexample, you know, being ADHD,
being autistic etc, is notnecessarily that it is a
disability or an inherentdisability, it is a disability
because society is not set up tosupport these ways of being in
(14:39):
the world. And so then itbecomes a disability because it
is cultural. It is becausesociety is not set up. These
things become to bring it tothis boy studio, these things
become a disability or achallenge in the voice studio.
Because the voice studio is notset up the teachers we are not
set up. We do not understandneurodiversity affirming voice
pedagogy, for example, and weare not set up to To support and
(15:01):
affirm those things, those waysof being in the world, and
therefore they are going to adisability.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (15:10):
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everywhere. And it wasinteresting, I was talking to
you prior to this interview thatI had been listening to a
(16:40):
podcast last night and againthis morning that accidentally
came up. It just went from onepodcast episode to the next and
it was Dr. Chris Palmer from theMcLean Hospital in Boston who's
been doing 20 years of researchas a psychiatrist into neuro
(17:02):
divergence. And he he was sayingthat in the medical field,
they're still referred to as yesmental illness, which is I mean
that that is a really strong,harsh label. But moving on, are
there different categories thatfall under the umbrella of neuro
(17:29):
divergence?
Dr Shannon Coates (17:33):
Well, it
depends on who you ask, of
course, neurodivergentactivists, folks who are at the
forefront, who are part of thecommunity and who are at the
forefront of education aroundthis topic in the broader world,
talk about many of the thingsthat we might consider that is
atypical to what we wouldconsider the norm as being
(17:55):
neurodivergent or falling underexcuse me, that neurodivergent
umbrella. So we talked aboutADHD and autism, which are the
two sort of ones that everybodykind of knows about, but lots of
different learning differences.
Dyslexia, for example, can beconsidered is considered a neuro
divergence, because it is aprocessing difference. There's a
you know, the way that we'reprocessing things is a typical,
(18:15):
if you will, and lots of thingswill Tourette, OCD, lots of
those other brain differencesmay be considered part and then
there's also discussion aroundacquired, if you will, neuro
divergences so some of them areconsidered innate. In other
words, this is the way my brainwas when I was born. And that's
(18:36):
part of the reason probably thata lot of these a lot of these
neuro divergences tend to end upin families we tend to there's a
big joke in the in the communityaround you know, as your kid is
getting a diagnosis, yourpartner and you are looking at
each other side either in in theoffice going Mmm, that sounds
very familiar. Yes,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (19:00):
I wonder
where that came from?
Unknown (19:02):
Well, it's
Dr Marisa Lee Nais (19:02):
interesting,
because when I was listening to
this Mel Robbins interview withDr. Chris Palmer, and many of
the listeners here may followMel Robbins. She's an amazing
speaker and thought leader. Shewas diagnosed with ADHD
dyslexia, and dysgraphiadysgraphia.
Dr Shannon Coates (19:24):
Yeah. Which
often goes with dyslexia is in
her
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (19:28):
late
40s. She was sitting there with
her son, and her son was beingdiagnosed because he was always
told that he was like thenaughty kid. He was the one that
the information wouldn't stick.
He was the one that couldn't sitstill. So he was labeled the
naughty child. So a doctorsuggested that he undergoes
(19:49):
testing for ADHD. And while shewas there, she was thinking,
Wow, a lot of this sounds likeme and I heard of other people
that this has happened to aswell. So you're talking about
this genetic thing. But to takethis yet another step further,
because what I didn't realizewas that anxiety and mood
(20:12):
disorders also fall under theumbrella of neuro divergent and
Dr Shannon Coates (20:20):
acquired
neuro divergence. Yes,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (20:23):
yeah. In
our family. There is a history
of depression. There is also ahistory of anxiety and a lot of
that as well. So I've seen thatand it's not only my mother,
myself, my kids have sufferedwith that from time to time, but
also cousins.
Dr Shannon Coates (20:44):
Yep. Yeah. I
mean, it's complicated, right?
Can you ever say that that thingis innate? Only? And that thing
is only acquired? I'm not surethat you could ever say that?
Yes. You know, I'm not sure.
It's far more complex than that,of course. And there's always
the element of trauma, there'salways the element of our
(21:06):
experiences, there's alwaysalways the element of wealth,
nurture, and what kind ofnurture and how we grew up and
how those things were dealtwith, if you will have we were
supported as kids, there arealways all of those aspects. And
yes, trauma responses can lookvery similar, especially to
(21:27):
autistic responses. So thebehavioral responses can look
very similar from you know,someone who was responding out
of trauma, or unhealed trauma ondealt with trauma, and someone
who's responding because of theway they process. So those are
two, a two different reasons torespond. And also, lots and lots
(21:47):
of neurodivergent folks are alsodealing with trauma because of
being raised in in a society,you
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (21:56):
know,
like being on this treadmill,
and you just can't get off,because one exacerbates the
other.
Dr Shannon Coates (22:02):
Yes.
exasperates or complementssometimes? Yes. I mean, the
point remains that there is soone of the things that comes up
quite a bit is and we weretalking about this actually
earlier, is this idea that well,everybody's a little bit
neurodivergent these days,aren't they? You know, I know,
like everybody I know, hassomething that's happening,
(22:23):
right? So like, is this a thingwhere everybody's just a little
bit? And that is something thatis? I mean, there's both the the
sort of overall, well,everybody's a little bit
neurodivergent, which is alittle bit flippant, and a
little bit, like, I'm justobserving all of these things
now. And then the other questionof, like, why is there so such a
(22:46):
high level of diagnosis now, butthe the idea that everybody's a
little bit neurodivergent? Letme say this The, for myself, for
example, the traits that I know,that are part of my ADHD, and
part of the way that I functionin the world in terms of moving
through this ADHD, and movingwith ADHD in this world.
(23:10):
Everyone, at some point forgetstheir keys, everyone, at some
point, you know, goes off topicin a conversation, everyone at
some point procrastinateseveryone at some point, does it,
you know, like, there are all ofthose things, yes. But when it
is pervasive in your behavior,and when it is actually
(23:32):
impacting the quality of yourlife, that is a different thing.
So that is yes, there aretraits, there are things that
happen with an ADHD brain thateveryone will experience at some
point in their lives, you'reoverwhelmed you, you know, leave
your you know, you forget topick up your kid from school,
great, whatever, like there'sthere are things pervasive,
(23:54):
consistent, I cannot get on topof this. I cannot, you know,
change this in my life, nomatter how hard I try. That's a
completely different thing fromlike, and also, you know, when
we look around, we say, look,everybody's a little OCD. No,
(24:14):
no, we are not OCD is acompletely different thing. From
you know, even generalizedanxiety, right. And everyone's a
little autistic, you know, weall get a little autistic Well,
no, no, you don't? You don't,right. It is not. It is not.
Everyone's a little you know,there are absolutely diagnostic
(24:36):
traits. There are traits andcharacteristics and behaviors
that we can look at and say, Oh,yes, that is pervasive that is
happening. This is a thing thatis happening. As opposed to
everyone's a little bit. Yeah,the other side of that coin is
like what is the what is why dowe have such an increase? Or it
seems to be anyway such anIncrease in diagnosis,
(25:00):
medication, etc. And, you know,we talked about a little bit
about that earlier as well. Butthe, there are lots of ideas
around why certainly there arethe folks out there who say,
Well, everyone is just selfdiagnosing because of stupid tic
toc. And, you know, this isreally harmful, because
(25:21):
everybody, you know, everybodyshouldn't be self diagnosing.
There shouldn't be, you know, noone should be getting medication
if they don't need it, and etcetera, et cetera. So there is
that side of things where, wherethere are folks who view this as
harmful, as something thatshould not be happening, this
increase in diagnosis and thisincrease in and perhaps increase
(25:43):
in medication, and medicatinghowever, the wonderful thing
about these about the fact thatonline platforms have given
neurodivergent people a voice isthat we have community, we have
we no longer have people inthere, you know, like myself
(26:07):
thinking, Well, I'm just a lazy,undisciplined person who
procrastinates or I'm dumb
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (26:18):
yet
because I can't retain
information or read this, thison this page, but it's just not
computing. I've read it 20times, why am I not
understanding it? Yes.
Dr Shannon Coates (26:31):
Or I'm, I
must be done because I can't
read, you know, and then youlook and see, oh, my favorite
actor is dyslexic. And I am too,Oh, okay. They made it. Maybe I
can, too. You know, like,there's more you spend your
entire life thinking you'renever going to be able to make
(26:51):
friends. And the whole world isjust a very horrible place with
people who do not who are nothonest and cannot be honest with
you and can't accept you as youare. And you have to just try
your hardest to fit in somehow.
Yes. And then you meet an onlinecommunity of autistic people who
communicate in the same way thatyou do and who are very happy to
communicate in that way with youand accept you and you go, Oh,
(27:15):
there's the community I waslooking for. Yes. So I think
there's a combination here ofcertainly far more information,
of course, available, so that weare now able to say, Oh, that's
a thing. I didn't know that wasa thing. community where people
are saying, hey, you know, thisADHD med was really useful for
(27:40):
me, just to help me find myselfand get in focus and be able to
stay on track. There's lots ofstats out there about especially
folks who we perceive to befemale and or who were
socialized female, having, Ican't remember the exact numbers
now, unfortunately, but it'ssomewhere in the range of you
know, by the time an adult womangets an ADHD diagnosis, for
(28:04):
example, they will have seen,you know, six or seven medical
professionals Wow. Or they willhave been on. I can't remember
how many it is, but it's maybethree to five different
antidepressants or medicationsfor mental illness. Yes. And
then they get an ADHD diagnosis.
And they're like, oh, look, if Iwas just taking Vyvanse all
(28:28):
along, then absolutely fine.
Now, so yes, so there is thisincrease in like, certainly this
increase in the recognition, thediagnosis and all that, but I,
I'm not worried.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (28:44):
Well,
here, here in Australia, that
this dance word that prior toCOVID, there will 1.4 million
prescriptions given to 186,000people. So that was in 2018. And
in 2022, there were 3.2 millionprescriptions given to 414,000
(29:09):
people. Now that was here inAustralia alone. And in the
singing boy studio, I feel thatthere's been a great number of
students who have returned fromCOVID who are suffering with
anxiety, depression. A lot ofthese students are being
(29:31):
medicated or seeing apsychologist or a counselor.
Some students have even tried toself harm. There have been
students, multiple studentsdiagnosed with ADHD. So you talk
about that situation or cause orthat life event or that trauma.
(29:52):
And I feel that maybe COVID hascreated a greater problem or
maybe the problem that wasalways there, that underlying
problem was always there andmaybe COVID. And that isolation
or the trauma or the fear, orthe, the whatever we were going
(30:12):
through, has brought it to thefore. Who we don't know. Do we
know?
Dr Shannon Coates (30:17):
Yes. Who
knows who yes. Yeah. And I mean,
time may tell who knows what thestats are?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (30:24):
Yeah. So
why do you do this work? Because
I know that not only you haveADHD, but also your children.
neurodivergent. So do you wantto share a little bit about your
your children and their journey?
Sure. And you was their mom?
(30:45):
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Dr Shannon Coates (33:07):
I mean, the
the reason that I stepped into
this kind of educational role inwithin with this with this issue
in particular, it startedbecause I was looking at so many
of the you know, theaccommodations, I'll say
accommodations, but some of theaccommodations have so many of
the supports that my childrenwere able to get in school and
(33:34):
in the educational system, andmany things that I hadn't
thought about before, as well asmuch of the therapy that they
had. They've had neurodiversityaffirming therapists, since they
were since since diagnosis,actually. So so
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (33:48):
how did
they come to be diagnosed?
Dr Shannon Coates (33:51):
So my younger
child when he was in junior
kindergarten, my oldest child istwo years older. So when he was
in junior kindergarten, theteacher said, It's very strange.
He knows his alphabet. Butthere's, there's something going
on there. And I wonder ifpossible, I wonder if you might
(34:16):
just see what's going on there.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (34:18):
So what
age are we talking? About four
or five? Five? Yeah.
Dr Shannon Coates (34:23):
So the summer
between senior kindergarten and
grade one, we had a psychoeducational assessment done.
That's what they're called here,which is outside of the school
with a private therapists. Andwhen we had that done, it was so
revelatory. And so, you know, itwas such good information that
(34:47):
we were like, Let's get ourdaughters done as well. And so
they both had those done. And atthat time, Asperger was still
part of the DSM, it is no longerso Asperger's is no longer a
diagnosis. So everything fallsunder Autism NOW. And so at that
time, so they were like five andseven, maybe. And the therapist
(35:08):
said, there are some markers forAsperger's here. And again, this
is going back like, nearly 20years. So it was going really
well. So there are some are 15years there are markers for
Asperger's here. But here aresome of the other learning
difficulties that are thelearning challenges dyslexia,
for example. They're processingthings, you know, dis calcula,
(35:30):
which is, which is numbers, it'slike dysgraphia, dyslexia, but
numbers, a bunch of differentprocessing thing. So that was
very good information. And wewould never have had our
daughter tested, if it hadn'tbeen for how good the
information was with our son.
And they were never testedbecause they were behavioral
issues. So they would haveabsolutely fall through the
cracks. Right? If, if thatkindergarten teacher hadn't said
(35:52):
something? Well,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (35:55):
how
lucky Yeah, so he wasn't the
naughty child that couldn't sitstill in the corner? Absolutely
not.
Dr Shannon Coates (36:03):
The only way
that he could figure out which
letter he was supposed to beusing, was if he went through
the entire alphabet song. So ifyou said which letter is this,
and you held up an E, he wouldgo. It's an E, he couldn't, he
could not. And if you asked himto write an E, he had to go
(36:25):
through in his head, thealphabet song in order to figure
out he knew his name. Because weI had made a song for him not
thinking that this would be away for him to like, but he knew
how to spell his name, because Ihad made up a whole song for his
name. And just because it wasfun, oh, my God. And so he knew
how to spell his name. And sothe kindergarten teacher noticed
(36:49):
that he is processing somethingdifferently here. He is not able
to just like, name a letter,he's not able to just like
there's something there'sthere's some processing going on
here that is different. And alsohe's not picking up the writing.
She noticed that as well, thathe really wasn't picking up
writing in a way that, you know,that she thought was appropriate
(37:10):
for his age. So yes, yeah. Imean, we we had a full cycle
educational assessment done.
Then again, it was probably twoyears later, maybe three years
later. At that time, then theyhad a full diagnosis of autism
and ADHD for both of themdyslexia, for both of them and
lots of different processingchallenges.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (37:36):
A lot of
those do go hand in hand.
Absolutely. It's not that it'sone diagnosis exclusively.
That's quite often there'smultiple
Dr Shannon Coates (37:45):
years, we
often see clustering, they call
it a string of neurodivergences. So yeah, which very
interestingly, it is actuallyquite recent that a dual
diagnosis of ADHD and autism wasactually possible. So they have
(38:06):
they have those diagnoses. Andas I was going through those,
you know, as we were goingthrough all of these supports
and therapies and differentkinds of ways of supporting
them, especially in theeducational system, I started to
see some of the things that Ithought, why am I not teaching
this way? Like, why am I notdoing this in my voice studio?
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (38:30):
What's
an example of that? So an
Dr Shannon Coates (38:33):
example would
be behavioral or recognizing
behaviors, for example. So theone of the things that a
therapist might say, That wasshocking for us was well, you
are asking them to do somethingthat they actually do not know
how to do, and you are expectingsomething that is beyond what
(38:57):
they are able to process rightnow. Well, and then you are
giving them consequences for notdoing it. And so then they, in
return, are lying to you. Theydon't want to but they're lying
to you because they're trying sohard to do the thing that you
want them to do.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (39:16):
So
they'll covering up, they're
covering
Dr Shannon Coates (39:19):
up
Absolutely. So then I start to
say, okay, in the studio, when Iam expecting someone to do
something, but I haven't giventhem options to put them to
figure it out. And then I ampenalizing them. What am I
expecting is going to happen? Ofcourse they're going to be
(39:42):
perhaps defiant. Of course,they're going to be, you know,
the Joker in the studio to like,you know, get out of it by like,
just being the clown and welaugh together and I Oh, it's
fine. Of course. So like, yeah,of course there's gonna be fun
I'm kind of we do this withparents as well, when we have
(40:03):
sort of punitive cancellationpolicies, you know, where like,
there's lots of
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (40:08):
yes, no,
I totally get it. No, yes, I
totally get
Dr Shannon Coates (40:12):
it first
people will then say, no, no, my
kid is really sick and can'tcome in today, when in fact,
they just forgot and scheduledsomething else. And it's and
now, I mean, of course, they'regonna lie to you about it,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (40:28):
or they
are so scared to come in for
fear of failure. Because yes, weare setting them up for failure.
So we're essentially if we'reteaching from a place of this is
right, this is wrong. That's,that's good. That's bad. That's
bad, that student is not goingto want to come in, because
(40:52):
they're going to even meanthey're already in that hyper
vigilant state. Yes, it's goingto make that problem even bigger
for them. 100%. And they're notgoing to, they're not going to
want to come in and if they do,I know there's behaviors to that
a student will talk and talk andtalk and talk to get out of
(41:14):
singing. Of course, of course,they're doing everything they
can to avoid actually singing.
Yeah, for fear of judgment.
Dr Shannon Coates (41:24):
Yes. And is
it because they're a bad person
or their deviant person or theirattack? No, of course, it is
not. However, that hits us hard,right? Like, we take that
personally, sometimes we'relike, well, they're just, you
know, these students like wetake that personally, often,
rather than looking at thebehavior as just a communication
(41:46):
of something being wrong. Like,it's just, that's all it is. So
something else we expect, youknow, we expect kids, teenagers,
kids, who have been at schoolall day. And this is especially
prevalent for adolescent folkswho are going through hormonal
changes, but also an autistickid, for example, who has been
(42:08):
masking all day long at school,and who has been working very
hard all day long, to stayfocused to keep listening to
especially they had someauditory processing differences,
which is very common, again,that is a very common, that's
also children developing I mean,auditory processing is a thing
that we develop as we get older,like there's a normal
(42:29):
developmental part to that. Butalso, that can be a
neurodivergent trait as well isto have some auditory processing
differences. And so they've beenworking their whole day, perhaps
they've perhaps the lights havebeen buzzing very strongly,
perhaps it's hot outside,perhaps their toe hurts,
whatever, maybe they feelslightly sick to their stomach,
they've been working their wholeday to stay good to be a good
(42:53):
student. And then they come totheir voice lesson at four
o'clock after school. And weexpect them to stand we expect
them to look a straight in theeye, we expect them to answer
that we expect them to listen,we expect them to to display all
these behavioral traits that weconsider respectful, or that we
(43:15):
need them to do in order to showus that they are learning. This
is this is completely,completely not useful.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (43:25):
And and
when you think that with
singing, we're activating everypart of the brain. So they've
already been in a situationwhere they've had to use the
brain in a way that probablydoesn't come naturally for them.
And then we're asking them tocome to the singing lesson and
(43:47):
fire up everything. fire on allcylinders. Yeah, that's a lot.
That is a lot. Yeah,
Dr Shannon Coates (43:55):
it's a lot.
And that's, I mean, that's themain thing, right? I think, when
we think about okay, but howwill I know how to treat a
neurodivergent? Student like howwill I know if there's something
going on there that I should be,you know, that I should be
supporting? Or I should beaffirming or, or changing in
order to be able to supportthem? And the main thing is this
(44:17):
whenever you feel triggered by abehavior, you need to get
curious about that. So if you'vegot a singer who comes in and
you feel is not taking theirlesson seriously, because all
they want to do is sit on thecouch and not stand. Take a
second to think about that. Doyou think they're not taking the
(44:41):
lesson seriously, or do youthink maybe maybe, they have
stood all day, maybe they havemaybe their body is not able to
function right now. Maybe theycan do some lip trills while
lying on your couch? Do theyreally need to stand up? In
order to show you that they'repaying attention, and they're
learning No, yes,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (45:04):
yes,
they
Dr Shannon Coates (45:05):
absolutely do
not. Yes,
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (45:07):
that we
have to be accommodating. I know
with many of my students when Ifeel that they're not on for,
for whatever reason, I just getthem to lie on the ground, and
close their eyes and to breatheand to do some, like accent
breath work where they're usingvoiced and unvoiced fricatives
(45:30):
in a rhythmic pattern. And dothat for five minutes. In an IRA
say, let's not judge the sound.
Let's just focus on the breath.
There is no judgment here. Thereis no right or wrong. Let's just
focus on the movement of theabdominals. Let's just focus on
the breath. Let's just pretendwere in bed. And then it's those
(45:55):
final moments before you'redrifting off to sleep. Yeah.
And, and students come out ofthat. And they, they'd say,
Well, I feel amazing. And thenif they're fatiguing, I have an
ottoman in my private studio.
And I have chairs in my studioat the con at the
Conservatorium. And I say, Youknow what, we can sit? Yeah, and
(46:16):
I and I find, though, sometimes,when a student is really
activated, or just having themsit, just seems to calm
everything down, you know,everything that you're doing
what you do, when you stand, wejust need to make sure we do
when we're sitting, we just wantthe chest cavity to be open,
(46:39):
just relax our shoulders, youknow, do whatever you want.
Yeah. So I've become far moreaccommodating. By listening to
the students in that moment, ona given day. And also, not
putting limitations orexpectations. I've taken that
(47:01):
away. rates. So I've done thework on myself as a teacher.
Yep, to get to that point.
Dr Shannon Coates (47:11):
I think the
next steps even further, in what
you're saying, as well is, firstof all, to normalize. So
whenever we find ourselves,offering what we might think of
as an accommodation, or, youknow, I see you're fatigued,
let's take a seat, does it feellike now would be a great time
(47:32):
to just kind of lie down and doa little bit of grounding and
maybe some breathing orsomething like that? Would you
like to walk? Would you like topace while you're singing? Yes.
Would you like what kind ofmovements would you like? Like,
yes, all of those kinds ofquestions. As soon as those
things are coming up as anaccommodation for a student in
the situation. I think the nextstep is to start to take notes
(47:54):
and normalize those things asoptions. So now, it's not me who
has to notice when you aren'tfeeling when when you need
something. It's me saying, hey,guess what, in this studio,
everyone sits whenever they feellike they want to, everyone
lives down. If and when theyfeel like they want to, everyone
(48:15):
grabs a fidget toy if and whenthey feel like they want to,
everyone can move the lightswitch the dimmer up and down if
and when they feel like theywant to, anybody can do whatever
they need to do, because I amnow going to normalize the fact
that everyone has options. Andalso you don't just take the
option because I happen tonotice that you needed it. But
(48:36):
you get to start to understandwhat you need to be able to sing
and to be able to do your bestwork in this time. Yeah. And
then you get to ask for it. Sothen those things become not
even accommodations anymore.
They become now I'm affirmingNo, your choice, normalizing
your choice and normalizing youhaving agency over your own body
(48:57):
and noticing what's happening inyour own body. Right? Yes, you
at the agency? Yes, of course atthe beginning. That may be
something where we're saying iIs it would it be useful for you
to like sit on the chair for therest of the lesson, would that
be useful? And so now I mighteven send an email out to the
(49:18):
entire studio and say, Hey, Ijust want to make sure that
everybody knows that I had thischair in my studio for a reason.
Wow, this isn't something thatyou have to like, I just It just
occurred to me that maybe noteveryone knows that this chair
is here for a reason. It's notjust a decoration. It's because
I want you to be able to takeadvantage of it and sit if and
(49:39):
when you need to. I trust you toknow your body.
Dr Marisa Lee Naismith (49:47):
Thank
you so much for listening to
this episode of voice andbeyond. I hope you enjoyed it as
now is an important time for youto invest in your own self care,
personal growth. growth andeducation. Use every day as an
opportunity to learn and togrow, so you can show up feeling
(50:08):
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(50:31):
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(50:55):
take care and I look forward toyour company next time on the
next episode of a voice andbeyond.