June 11, 2025 • 23 mins
In this follow-up to Episode 11, host Jessica Samuels continues her conversation with CMHA Kelowna's Director of People, Culture & Engagement, Candace Giesbrecht.
The focus of this episode is burnout and its relationship to the workplace. Candace and Jessica dive deeper into what burnout looks like, how it manifests in professional environments, and how organizations and individuals can begin to address it.
Topics Covered:
- The definition and symptoms of burnout
- How burnout differs from general workplace stress
- The systemic and organizational contributors to burnout
- What workplaces can do to prevent burnout
- The importance of psychological safety and leadership
- How employees can advocate for their well-being
RESOURCES
Burnout
https://cpa.ca/psychology-works-fact-sheet-workplace-burnout/
https://www.apa.org/topics/healthy-workplaces/workplace-burnout
Non-workplace Burnout
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/mental-health-workplace.html
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mental-health-at-work
https://cpa.ca/psychology-works-fact-sheet-mental-health-and-the-workplace/
https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/psychosocial/mh/mentalhealth_address.html
https://mentalhealthcommission.ca/what-we-do/workplace/
Stats on MH in workplace
https://cmha.ca/what-we-do/national-programs/workplace-mental-health/takeaways/
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mental-health-at-work
https://www.mhrc.ca/workplace-mental-health
https://www.mhrc.ca/psychological-health-and-safety-2024
Achieving and Maintaining MH in the workplace
https://mentalhealthcommission.ca/13-factors-addressing-mental-health-in-the-workplace/
https://mentalhealthcommission.ca/national-standard/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Samuels (00:00):
Hello, I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A
(00:02):
Way Forward presented by BeamCredit Union. I'd like to
acknowledge this podcast takesplace on the ancestral,
traditional and unceded lands ofthe Okanagan Silix people. Once
again, today, I'm joined by CMHAKelowna Director of People and
Culture, Candace Giesbrecht. Nowshe's here for part two of our
discussion about mental healthin the workplace.
(00:24):
If you want to listen to partone, it's episode 11. Today,
Candace and I are going to diginto burnout and its connection
to work. Candace, in theprevious episode, we talked
about how to measure and havesome positive influence on
(00:46):
mental health in the workplace,mentally healthy workplaces.
It's a bit of a tongue twister,because there's lots involved in
it. Yes, we talked about that.
And it was really interesting,because you shared an experience
about a couple of years ago whenyou came to CMHA Kelowna. The
guarding mind survey indicatedthat staff were close to
burnout. You shared that youpicked that as the focus, and it
(01:10):
took a couple of years to reallyaddress it, with the
understanding that there mightstill be a little bit of work
still to do. But you're feelingbetter about it. And more
importantly, staff are feelingbetter about it.
Candance Giesbrecht (01:23):
Yeah, I mean, we're seeing some
indications of, of the work thatwe've been doing and, you know,
indications like, you know, themeasurements that we have access
to through our benefits. Sopeople accessing the supports
that they've been provided. Wenoticed that our number of open
vacancies is way down, like lessthan half. And so the amount of
(01:50):
work and the pieces, the puzzlepieces that have come together
in order to accomplish thistells us that not as many people
are leaving, and it's easier forus to fill. And so, you know, we
look at some of theseindicators.
I mean, you know what, I feelconfident in saying that our
staff are good now. And thatburnout is no longer no longer,
a concern, no way. It is anongoing concern. And especially
(02:16):
with the world hasn't gotten anyeasier or less stressful and the
pressure's on folks. So it's anongoing concern.
But as an organization, weidentified a number of things
that we really felt wereimpacting the burnout of our
staff. And we're seeing thepayoff of the investments in
those areas.
Jessica Samuels (02:35):
It's so interesting when you talk about
burnout, and you mentioned someof those indicators, that that
may not be top of mind foremployers would be a reflection
of burnout. So I think a greatplace to start is the
definition. Burnout is a wordthat perhaps it has been used
quite broadly for a number ofthings of late. It actually has
(02:57):
a very psychological, a veryspecific definition that is
associated with workplaces andthe psychology of workplaces.
Yeah, workplaces and thepsychology of workplaces.
But I would expand that a littlemore
Candance Giesbrecht (03:13):
to Work. Yeah. And so and so the the
nuances here, I think, you know,it's not just about the
workplace or, or just referringto paid jobs or paid work. So so
often, there's burnout thatcomes with the work that's
associated with caregiving. Orthere's the work that's
associated even withvolunteering or with parenting.
(03:36):
And so so it's more about workthan the workplace is a nuance
that I would, I would want
Jessica Samuels (03:42):
to add, I appreciate that, Because and
perhaps it was my not fullyunderstanding or
misinterpretation of it. As Iprepared for this, I thought,
well, how can like life is hard,which
Candance Giesbrecht (03:57):
is what you
Jessica Samuels (03:57):
said. Can't I be burned out? Yeah, burnt out
from our feel burnt out fromother things? Yeah. So So what
is the definition?
It's is it the feeling ofoverwhelm? Is it the feeling of
can't do don't know what to donext?
Candance Giesbrecht (04:12):
Yeah, so when we look at and there are a
bunch of definitions that arereadily available online. But I
thought it might be kind of funif I could take one fun when
we're talking about burnout totake a look at a definition that
was provided by the World HealthOrganization, where they look
they really break it down intothree different dimensions. But
I like alliteration. And so Icame up with three D's that I
(04:34):
think capture the things fromthe World Health Organization.
So the one is depleted.
And so there's physical,emotional, psychological, maybe
even spiritual depletion. When Iburned out many, many years ago,
I was aware that I was stressedand that I was tired and that I
was not necessarily overwhelmed,but just had nothing in the
(04:56):
tank. I really found out when Iphysically collapsed. And so the
D here is depletion. And so it'sthat sense of like, you know,
I'm trying harder isn't working.
I got nothing to pull on.Nothing mentally or physically
or emotionally or spirituallythat I can pull on. The D is
depletion. The D that I havehere is distant or disconnected.
(05:19):
And so it's that feeling of kindof, you know, floating in space
a little bit like I'm goingthrough the motions.
I'm doing things, I don't feelconnected to them. You know, on
the flip, we would look forengagement or we would look for
feeling engaged and connected tothings. So that's the D. And
then the one, I had to strugglea little bit with. But I put
(05:43):
here downer.
So the sign of someone who'sburned out, or maybe if we're
looking in the mirror and we'retrying to figure out, am I
burned out? It's that cynicaldowner kind of like, you know,
you tell me one thing and I go,yeah, but blah, blah, blah. So
it's that downer kind of piece.So depleted, disconnected or
(06:03):
distant, and that downer kind ofbehavior, thoughts, words. Okay.
Jessica Samuels (06:09):
All right. I love that. Is that helpful? No,
it is. And I like thealliteration as well.
It helps with remembering it.You mentioned that burnout can
be associated with work inwhatever that work looks like.
In the context of this episode,and we're talking about,
workplace mental health,mentally healthy workplaces,
could then, I surmise that if Iam at a mentally healthy
(06:37):
workplace, there would be noburnout?
Candance Giesbrecht (06:40):
No. Wouldn't that nice? Wouldn't
that be nice? Yeah, no, I mean,when we look at any kind of
unwellness, I mean, as aworkplace, we want to try to
identify what are the thingsthat we can prevent. So what are
the things that we can do thatmight head this off in the
place, or identify it early sothat we can catch it before
(07:04):
we're at that point of a personlosing their health, losing
their, you know, employment ifthings go really bad and so on.
But so we want to try andprevent we want to catch it
early, we want to have themechanisms in place and the
education and the training sothat we can spot it, We can call
it out. We can, you know,hopefully have a safe and
respectful conversation where wego. You are not yourself. Like,
(07:27):
you okay? What do you need?
How's it going? What's happeninglike and and the 13 different
factors that we talked about inthe last episode that are the 13
psychosocial factors, then thosebecome some of our levers or
some of the ways that we canlook at if we needed to do list,
if we're worried about someonewho's who we're concerned that
they're burning out, we can lookat those pieces and say, Are you
(07:48):
feeling supported? Have you beenprovided with clear leadership
and expectations? Are youphysically safe? Are you you
know, what's happening withworkload?
What's happening with you know,and we can we can kind of use it
as a way of looking at differentlevers. Then, and then when we
know that there's a problem thatas a workplace, we have ways of
intervening and responding thatare respectful, that are safe,
(08:12):
that are health promoting, thatare good. It's like this Venn
diagram of, you know, what'sgood for the person and also
what's good for theorganization, whether it's, you
know, for profit or not forprofit. You know, we've got
these goals, we're looking forthat that crossover around, we
care for you. And we care aboutthis place.
And right now what's happeningfor you is having an impact and
(08:33):
so for you and this place, so weneed to have ways to try and
intervene and respond.
Jessica Samuels (08:40):
And how do you know what those ways are? I
mean, are you talking aboutfoundational ways that are at
the root of it? I would imaginethat there's going to be ways
that are going to be specific toeach workplace. As an example,
you talked about the steps thatCMHA Kelowna took to help
address and prevent or mitigateburnout for its staff?
Candance Giesbrecht (08:59):
Yeah, I mean, there are different
sectors, there are differentorganizations, there are
different kinds of mechanismsthat are appropriate. I mean,
you know, often what we hearfrom organizations or businesses
is we're out doing training is,is the, you know, there's a
nervousness about about havingthese conversations that you
know, what's okay to talk aboutor what is, you know, where,
(09:19):
where are those lines? Also, I'mtheir boss, it's not appropriate
for me to be their counselor. Idon't, you know, to some extent,
I don't want to get involved intheir stuff. And so, and so
figuring out and navigating someof those lines is hard.
But we do have that have aresponsibility as employers to
inquire and to ask people howthey're doing, and then to work
(09:42):
with them in being part of thesolution. That isn't just
stepping into people's personalworlds. This is what makes
business sense, is to have theconversations. You know, Brene
Brown, who I think many of usare fans of, says clear is kind.
(10:02):
And so the clearer we can beabout what's working and what
isn't, and what we're seeing orwhat we're worried about, or I'm
seeing this and the thing I'mwondering is.
Then the safer and more openthat we can have those kinds of
conversations and also even setsome limits sometimes, the
better off we can all be.
Jessica Samuels (10:20):
In preparation for this, you sent me over some
information from the CommunitySocial Services Health
Association of BC. Someinteresting stats in there and,
what it led me to wonder, twothings. So are there going to be
some sectors that are more proneto burnout? And specifically
from what I saw from that kindof led me to this question, some
(10:41):
types of work or businesses. Andthen I wonder if we can chat
about based on the uncertaintyand turmoil of the last five,
six years in general, are thereany observations of whether
incidences or rates of burnoutare on the rise?
Candance Giesbrecht (10:59):
So two questions there. Yeah. So the
question is a little bit of atricky one because on the face
of it, the sectors that areworking directly with humans who
are vulnerable or maybe sick orunwell. Some of the sectors like
(11:22):
healthcare or social services.Those are sort of the obvious
ones and definitely where thisstudy came out of.
One of the stats, I knew it wastough out there, but this was
kind of shocking, said in BC,there was an increase of 52% of
the number of days lost to work,an increase over the last four
(11:45):
years. Those are the obviousones, but I'd be hard pressed to
say what sector hasn't beennegatively impacted over the
last number of years becausewe're all living in this world
where things are hard andgroceries are expensive and kids
are having different kinds ofstruggles than we've seen. I
(12:08):
think We could look at some ofthe numbers, but my inclination
is to say we're all in this.We're all trying to figure out a
world that's unlike anythingthat we've ever seen before.
It's new territory in almostevery way.
It'll be interesting as we lookahead, just with changes to
(12:28):
immigration policies or thingslike that, where some sectors
are very, very dependent onnewcomers to the country. We've
seen what happens with latershortages in healthcare or maybe
in some other areas, but this isgoing to have a big impact on
us. So what's the fallout ofthat, As consider impacts to
(12:51):
business supply chains,factories, like, know, farms,
schools, healthcare. I can'tthink of a sector that I
wouldn't expect we would seesome very concerning trends
within because where there arehumans, these are human problems
more than sector problems, Ithink.
Jessica Samuels (13:10):
Right. And so some of those solutions would be
human specific, but also sectorspecific as well, which you
mentioned before. I want to goback and hopefully you don't
mind me asking how were you ableto overcome? I guess I should
say, have you overcome yourburnout?
Candance Giesbrecht (13:28):
Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (13:28):
Oh, okay. Yeah. But because of that complicated
nature of it, how I guess yousaid you recognized it because
you literally passed out fell onthe floor collapse. Were you
able to carry forward?
Candance Giesbrecht (13:45):
Yeah, it was. So it was a very long time
ago. It was on the it wassometime after I just returned
to work after the birth of myson. I really, what I started
learning about was the impact ofa little bit of postpartum
depression combined with, youknow, there was a new boss at
(14:07):
work and there were it was anintense time, it was sort of a
perfect storm of things. But thebiggest thing that I learned and
that I continue to learn is howmy mental health works.
Having a little bit morecompassion for myself in various
(14:29):
areas. So what I mean by that,because I feel like that could
sound a little fluffy or thatcould sound like it's definitely
vague. But what I mean by thatis that I learned that for
better or worse, I'm not good atworking just between nine and
(14:50):
five on Monday to Friday. That'snot how my brain works. So the
hard part of that was that Ishowed up for all of the nine to
fives, like for the forty hoursor whatever.
Plus, I just kept working at thetimes where my brain actually
was engaged. And so the hardpart was that I didn't know how
(15:11):
to shut off. I felt like Ineeded to show up and be present
and at times when I wasn'tproductive. But I still needed
to get the work done. So thenwhen it was working for me, I
was doing it after hours.
So one of the things I juststopped fighting was the fact
that sometimes my brain worksbetter at 6AM or at 9PM. And I
(15:34):
don't know what it is aboutthat, but I just stopped
fighting it. And I startedembracing it and working with my
employers to figure out the waysso that I can have a little bit
more flexibility. Other peopleare very good at being present
and productive on command. I amnot one
Jessica Samuels (15:48):
of them. That flexibility piece you mentioned
last time with the 13 factors,because of course, you were
telling that story and you havethis range and variety of when
you're your best to work as anemployee. The other part of that
is having an employer who iswilling to hear that and work
(16:09):
with it. And that's where thatpiece of that mentally healthy
workplace comes in. That's one
Candance Giesbrecht (16:14):
of those factors. It absolutely is. But
at the core of that is therelationship and the trust and
rapport that has to existbetween the employer's got to be
willing to have thatconversation. And the employee,
to some extent, needs to havesome skill and some confidence
in being able to say, Can wework out a different way of me
(16:37):
getting the work done? I had afantastic mentor, Doctor.
Laura Hambly. Totally recommendyou check out her stuff. But she
just said, We need not confusepresence with productivity. You
know, I mean, ultimately what wewant is, I mean, we all want the
(16:59):
productivity. The productivityis going to help the bottom
line.
It's going to help the business.It's going to help us make a
greater impact, you know,whatever the thing is that we're
measuring or that we're tryingto accomplish. But saying, and
it must happen between thesehours. For many jobs, for many
roles, I mean, it is important,like if you work at a bank, and
your job is to be the person whomeets customers, and that's
(17:22):
another matter. But for manythings, let's get the work done
and let's figure out what's tofind that sweet spot between
productivity that suits a personand what the organization needs.
Right. So going back to thatguarding mind survey and it
being a tool for employers, oneof
Jessica Samuels (17:44):
the questions that I didn't ask you last time
is how you talked about how youkind of get the green light,
yellow light and the red light.What's interesting is to me is
how do the questions work? Doemployers, do they are they able
to have some flexibility on thequestions? Or is it a standard
set of questions? No, again,because it would be sector
specific?
Candance Giesbrecht (18:05):
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, so with this
particular tool, the questionsare not editable. So you know,
set and there's a very goodreason for that. These questions
have been tested.
They are evidence based. Theyhave been pushed and pulled
across a number of differentsectors, different kinds of
(18:27):
expertise has weighed into this.And so the words are very
carefully chosen and thequestions are testing quite
specific domains related tothese 13 factors. It is possible
to get tailored engagementsurveys that measure that would
accomplish a very similar thingto the Guarding Minds at Work.
(18:49):
What we love about GuardingMinds is that we know it's
evidence based and that we knowit's free.
It's accessible to absolutelyeveryone. But there are a lot of
professionals. But what willoften happen with consultants
related to these kinds ofsurveys is that while there may
be a little bit more choice, atleast if they're done by
(19:10):
professionals, which, you know,that's what we're talking about
here. They will still bechoosing from a bank of
questions that are evidencebased. And if somebody is, you
know, maybe testing out aconsultant, that's actually a
good thing to test.
Like, you know, if they say,yeah, we can work on the
(19:31):
questions and completely editthem together, actually might be
a little bit of a flag for me.
Jessica Samuels (19:36):
Okay. You brought up an interesting thing
there. So there's the guardingminds. You mentioned a
consultant. What are some otherthings a workplace can do to
kind of take those steps tomanage you know, and establish
that respectful, you know,psychological safety in a
workplace.
Imagine CMHA Kelowna, throughthat two years of working
(20:00):
through that, you didn't only dothe guarding mind survey, other
things happened.
Candance Giesbrecht (20:04):
Yeah, there are other things. Yeah. So I
mean, you know, the suggestionfor, you know, organizations who
are wanting to do this is like,ultimately, we want to find
ways, and ideally multiple waysfor people to tell us how
they're doing and how it'sgoing. And so there may be a
combination of you might dofocus group kinds of sessions,
(20:26):
you know, opportunities wherewithin a group setting and and
you could have a neutral personor it could be run by senior
staff or the HR department ifyou have one. So it could be in
a group setting, it could besurvey, and then there's
questions around anonymous ornot.
(20:48):
But the hope is that we'refinding ways to get that two way
feedback and that we're creatingthose conditions and those
opportunities where we can knownot just at a point in time,
which can be very valuable andimportant, but that we have
opportunities and ways whenpeople can tell us when they
(21:13):
have an idea of what's goingwell, and also what they would
like to see happen differently.And just when you think you've
nailed it, you probably havesome more work to do. And this
is one of those things that'salso time intensive, takes a lot
of takes a lot of time andinvestment and circling back. I
(21:34):
mean, we were just talking aboutit today that, that, you know,
we, it's been a while since wecircled back to staff and told
everybody about the kinds ofthings that we've been working
on from when we asked them howthey're doing. So, so it takes
time and intention.
But, you know, going back againto something I said last time,
(21:54):
my argument is you'll pay eitherway. So you either pay in
investing in some of theproactive conversations, or
you're going to pay on the otherend when you start seeing high
turnover or you start seeingsome toxic behaviors or you
start seeing some unhealthy, youknow, conflict or things like
(22:14):
that that are happening, lostproductivity, lost days of work
and so on. Employers are goingto pay either way. You pay
either way. Okay, thank you somuch, Candace.
Jessica Samuels (22:24):
Yeah, you're welcome. Well, hopefully
somewhere in there, have someideas about how to prevent
burnout, whether it's in theworkplace or at work. And if
you're an individual who's anemployer in a workplace and you
want to find ways to foster amentally healthy workplace, of
course, we're going to havethose resource links for you on
(22:45):
the WayForward podcast pagepresented by Bean Credit Union.
As always, if you have questionsabout this episode or any
episode, you can email us atcolonacmhacolona dot org. You
can always email us atawayforwardcmhacolona dot org.
In the meantime, please takegood care. Beam Credit Union
(23:07):
supports mental healthinitiatives across British
Columbia because caring for eachother builds stronger, more
connected communities. United asone, BEAM's founding credit
unions now serve 190,000 membersacross BC.
Hello, I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A
(00:02):
Way Forward presented by BeamCredit Union. I'd like to
acknowledge this podcast takesplace on the ancestral,
traditional and unceded lands ofthe Okanagan Silix people. Once
again, today, I'm joined by CMHAKelowna Director of People and
Culture, Candace Giesbrecht. Nowshe's here for part two of our
discussion about mental healthin the workplace.
(00:24):
If you want to listen to partone, it's episode 11. Today,
Candace and I are going to diginto burnout and its connection
to work. Candace, in theprevious episode, we talked
about how to measure and havesome positive influence on
(00:46):
mental health in the workplace,mentally healthy workplaces.
It's a bit of a tongue twister,because there's lots involved in
it. Yes, we talked about that.
And it was really interesting,because you shared an experience
about a couple of years ago whenyou came to CMHA Kelowna. The
guarding mind survey indicatedthat staff were close to
burnout. You shared that youpicked that as the focus, and it
(01:10):
took a couple of years to reallyaddress it, with the
understanding that there mightstill be a little bit of work
still to do. But you're feelingbetter about it. And more
importantly, staff are feelingbetter about it.
Candance Giesbrecht (01:23):
Yeah, I mean, we're seeing some
indications of, of the work thatwe've been doing and, you know,
indications like, you know, themeasurements that we have access
to through our benefits. Sopeople accessing the supports
that they've been provided. Wenoticed that our number of open
vacancies is way down, like lessthan half. And so the amount of
(01:50):
work and the pieces, the puzzlepieces that have come together
in order to accomplish thistells us that not as many people
are leaving, and it's easier forus to fill. And so, you know, we
look at some of theseindicators.
I mean, you know what, I feelconfident in saying that our
staff are good now. And thatburnout is no longer no longer,
a concern, no way. It is anongoing concern. And especially
(02:16):
with the world hasn't gotten anyeasier or less stressful and the
pressure's on folks. So it's anongoing concern.
But as an organization, weidentified a number of things
that we really felt wereimpacting the burnout of our
staff. And we're seeing thepayoff of the investments in
those areas.
Jessica Samuels (02:35):
It's so interesting when you talk about
burnout, and you mentioned someof those indicators, that that
may not be top of mind foremployers would be a reflection
of burnout. So I think a greatplace to start is the
definition. Burnout is a wordthat perhaps it has been used
quite broadly for a number ofthings of late. It actually has
(02:57):
a very psychological, a veryspecific definition that is
associated with workplaces andthe psychology of workplaces.
Yeah, workplaces and thepsychology of workplaces.
But I would expand that a littlemore
Candance Giesbrecht (03:13):
to Work. Yeah. And so and so the the
nuances here, I think, you know,it's not just about the
workplace or, or just referringto paid jobs or paid work. So so
often, there's burnout thatcomes with the work that's
associated with caregiving. Orthere's the work that's
associated even withvolunteering or with parenting.
(03:36):
And so so it's more about workthan the workplace is a nuance
that I would, I would want
Jessica Samuels (03:42):
to add, I appreciate that, Because and
perhaps it was my not fullyunderstanding or
misinterpretation of it. As Iprepared for this, I thought,
well, how can like life is hard,which
Candance Giesbrecht (03:57):
is what you
Jessica Samuels (03:57):
said. Can't I be burned out? Yeah, burnt out
from our feel burnt out fromother things? Yeah. So So what
is the definition?
It's is it the feeling ofoverwhelm? Is it the feeling of
can't do don't know what to donext?
Candance Giesbrecht (04:12):
Yeah, so when we look at and there are a
bunch of definitions that arereadily available online. But I
thought it might be kind of funif I could take one fun when
we're talking about burnout totake a look at a definition that
was provided by the World HealthOrganization, where they look
they really break it down intothree different dimensions. But
I like alliteration. And so Icame up with three D's that I
(04:34):
think capture the things fromthe World Health Organization.
So the one is depleted.
And so there's physical,emotional, psychological, maybe
even spiritual depletion. When Iburned out many, many years ago,
I was aware that I was stressedand that I was tired and that I
was not necessarily overwhelmed,but just had nothing in the
(04:56):
tank. I really found out when Iphysically collapsed. And so the
D here is depletion. And so it'sthat sense of like, you know,
I'm trying harder isn't working.
I got nothing to pull on.Nothing mentally or physically
or emotionally or spirituallythat I can pull on. The D is
depletion. The D that I havehere is distant or disconnected.
(05:19):
And so it's that feeling of kindof, you know, floating in space
a little bit like I'm goingthrough the motions.
I'm doing things, I don't feelconnected to them. You know, on
the flip, we would look forengagement or we would look for
feeling engaged and connected tothings. So that's the D. And
then the one, I had to strugglea little bit with. But I put
(05:43):
here downer.
So the sign of someone who'sburned out, or maybe if we're
looking in the mirror and we'retrying to figure out, am I
burned out? It's that cynicaldowner kind of like, you know,
you tell me one thing and I go,yeah, but blah, blah, blah. So
it's that downer kind of piece.So depleted, disconnected or
(06:03):
distant, and that downer kind ofbehavior, thoughts, words. Okay.
Jessica Samuels (06:09):
All right. I love that. Is that helpful? No,
it is. And I like thealliteration as well.
It helps with remembering it.You mentioned that burnout can
be associated with work inwhatever that work looks like.
In the context of this episode,and we're talking about,
workplace mental health,mentally healthy workplaces,
could then, I surmise that if Iam at a mentally healthy
(06:37):
workplace, there would be noburnout?
Candance Giesbrecht (06:40):
No. Wouldn't that nice? Wouldn't
that be nice? Yeah, no, I mean,when we look at any kind of
unwellness, I mean, as aworkplace, we want to try to
identify what are the thingsthat we can prevent. So what are
the things that we can do thatmight head this off in the
place, or identify it early sothat we can catch it before
(07:04):
we're at that point of a personlosing their health, losing
their, you know, employment ifthings go really bad and so on.
But so we want to try andprevent we want to catch it
early, we want to have themechanisms in place and the
education and the training sothat we can spot it, We can call
it out. We can, you know,hopefully have a safe and
respectful conversation where wego. You are not yourself. Like,
(07:27):
you okay? What do you need?
How's it going? What's happeninglike and and the 13 different
factors that we talked about inthe last episode that are the 13
psychosocial factors, then thosebecome some of our levers or
some of the ways that we canlook at if we needed to do list,
if we're worried about someonewho's who we're concerned that
they're burning out, we can lookat those pieces and say, Are you
(07:48):
feeling supported? Have you beenprovided with clear leadership
and expectations? Are youphysically safe? Are you you
know, what's happening withworkload?
What's happening with you know,and we can we can kind of use it
as a way of looking at differentlevers. Then, and then when we
know that there's a problem thatas a workplace, we have ways of
intervening and responding thatare respectful, that are safe,
(08:12):
that are health promoting, thatare good. It's like this Venn
diagram of, you know, what'sgood for the person and also
what's good for theorganization, whether it's, you
know, for profit or not forprofit. You know, we've got
these goals, we're looking forthat that crossover around, we
care for you. And we care aboutthis place.
And right now what's happeningfor you is having an impact and
(08:33):
so for you and this place, so weneed to have ways to try and
intervene and respond.
Jessica Samuels (08:40):
And how do you know what those ways are? I
mean, are you talking aboutfoundational ways that are at
the root of it? I would imaginethat there's going to be ways
that are going to be specific toeach workplace. As an example,
you talked about the steps thatCMHA Kelowna took to help
address and prevent or mitigateburnout for its staff?
Candance Giesbrecht (08:59):
Yeah, I mean, there are different
sectors, there are differentorganizations, there are
different kinds of mechanismsthat are appropriate. I mean,
you know, often what we hearfrom organizations or businesses
is we're out doing training is,is the, you know, there's a
nervousness about about havingthese conversations that you
know, what's okay to talk aboutor what is, you know, where,
(09:19):
where are those lines? Also, I'mtheir boss, it's not appropriate
for me to be their counselor. Idon't, you know, to some extent,
I don't want to get involved intheir stuff. And so, and so
figuring out and navigating someof those lines is hard.
But we do have that have aresponsibility as employers to
inquire and to ask people howthey're doing, and then to work
(09:42):
with them in being part of thesolution. That isn't just
stepping into people's personalworlds. This is what makes
business sense, is to have theconversations. You know, Brene
Brown, who I think many of usare fans of, says clear is kind.
(10:02):
And so the clearer we can beabout what's working and what
isn't, and what we're seeing orwhat we're worried about, or I'm
seeing this and the thing I'mwondering is.
Then the safer and more openthat we can have those kinds of
conversations and also even setsome limits sometimes, the
better off we can all be.
Jessica Samuels (10:20):
In preparation for this, you sent me over some
information from the CommunitySocial Services Health
Association of BC. Someinteresting stats in there and,
what it led me to wonder, twothings. So are there going to be
some sectors that are more proneto burnout? And specifically
from what I saw from that kindof led me to this question, some
(10:41):
types of work or businesses. Andthen I wonder if we can chat
about based on the uncertaintyand turmoil of the last five,
six years in general, are thereany observations of whether
incidences or rates of burnoutare on the rise?
Candance Giesbrecht (10:59):
So two questions there. Yeah. So the
question is a little bit of atricky one because on the face
of it, the sectors that areworking directly with humans who
are vulnerable or maybe sick orunwell. Some of the sectors like
(11:22):
healthcare or social services.Those are sort of the obvious
ones and definitely where thisstudy came out of.
One of the stats, I knew it wastough out there, but this was
kind of shocking, said in BC,there was an increase of 52% of
the number of days lost to work,an increase over the last four
(11:45):
years. Those are the obviousones, but I'd be hard pressed to
say what sector hasn't beennegatively impacted over the
last number of years becausewe're all living in this world
where things are hard andgroceries are expensive and kids
are having different kinds ofstruggles than we've seen. I
(12:08):
think We could look at some ofthe numbers, but my inclination
is to say we're all in this.We're all trying to figure out a
world that's unlike anythingthat we've ever seen before.
It's new territory in almostevery way.
It'll be interesting as we lookahead, just with changes to
(12:28):
immigration policies or thingslike that, where some sectors
are very, very dependent onnewcomers to the country. We've
seen what happens with latershortages in healthcare or maybe
in some other areas, but this isgoing to have a big impact on
us. So what's the fallout ofthat, As consider impacts to
(12:51):
business supply chains,factories, like, know, farms,
schools, healthcare. I can'tthink of a sector that I
wouldn't expect we would seesome very concerning trends
within because where there arehumans, these are human problems
more than sector problems, Ithink.
Jessica Samuels (13:10):
Right. And so some of those solutions would be
human specific, but also sectorspecific as well, which you
mentioned before. I want to goback and hopefully you don't
mind me asking how were you ableto overcome? I guess I should
say, have you overcome yourburnout?
Candance Giesbrecht (13:28):
Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (13:28):
Oh, okay. Yeah. But because of that complicated
nature of it, how I guess yousaid you recognized it because
you literally passed out fell onthe floor collapse. Were you
able to carry forward?
Candance Giesbrecht (13:45):
Yeah, it was. So it was a very long time
ago. It was on the it wassometime after I just returned
to work after the birth of myson. I really, what I started
learning about was the impact ofa little bit of postpartum
depression combined with, youknow, there was a new boss at
(14:07):
work and there were it was anintense time, it was sort of a
perfect storm of things. But thebiggest thing that I learned and
that I continue to learn is howmy mental health works.
Having a little bit morecompassion for myself in various
(14:29):
areas. So what I mean by that,because I feel like that could
sound a little fluffy or thatcould sound like it's definitely
vague. But what I mean by thatis that I learned that for
better or worse, I'm not good atworking just between nine and
(14:50):
five on Monday to Friday. That'snot how my brain works. So the
hard part of that was that Ishowed up for all of the nine to
fives, like for the forty hoursor whatever.
Plus, I just kept working at thetimes where my brain actually
was engaged. And so the hardpart was that I didn't know how
(15:11):
to shut off. I felt like Ineeded to show up and be present
and at times when I wasn'tproductive. But I still needed
to get the work done. So thenwhen it was working for me, I
was doing it after hours.
So one of the things I juststopped fighting was the fact
that sometimes my brain worksbetter at 6AM or at 9PM. And I
(15:34):
don't know what it is aboutthat, but I just stopped
fighting it. And I startedembracing it and working with my
employers to figure out the waysso that I can have a little bit
more flexibility. Other peopleare very good at being present
and productive on command. I amnot one
Jessica Samuels (15:48):
of them. That flexibility piece you mentioned
last time with the 13 factors,because of course, you were
telling that story and you havethis range and variety of when
you're your best to work as anemployee. The other part of that
is having an employer who iswilling to hear that and work
(16:09):
with it. And that's where thatpiece of that mentally healthy
workplace comes in. That's one
Candance Giesbrecht (16:14):
of those factors. It absolutely is. But
at the core of that is therelationship and the trust and
rapport that has to existbetween the employer's got to be
willing to have thatconversation. And the employee,
to some extent, needs to havesome skill and some confidence
in being able to say, Can wework out a different way of me
(16:37):
getting the work done? I had afantastic mentor, Doctor.
Laura Hambly. Totally recommendyou check out her stuff. But she
just said, We need not confusepresence with productivity. You
know, I mean, ultimately what wewant is, I mean, we all want the
(16:59):
productivity. The productivityis going to help the bottom
line.
It's going to help the business.It's going to help us make a
greater impact, you know,whatever the thing is that we're
measuring or that we're tryingto accomplish. But saying, and
it must happen between thesehours. For many jobs, for many
roles, I mean, it is important,like if you work at a bank, and
your job is to be the person whomeets customers, and that's
(17:22):
another matter. But for manythings, let's get the work done
and let's figure out what's tofind that sweet spot between
productivity that suits a personand what the organization needs.
Right. So going back to thatguarding mind survey and it
being a tool for employers, oneof
Jessica Samuels (17:44):
the questions that I didn't ask you last time
is how you talked about how youkind of get the green light,
yellow light and the red light.What's interesting is to me is
how do the questions work? Doemployers, do they are they able
to have some flexibility on thequestions? Or is it a standard
set of questions? No, again,because it would be sector
specific?
Candance Giesbrecht (18:05):
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, so with this
particular tool, the questionsare not editable. So you know,
set and there's a very goodreason for that. These questions
have been tested.
They are evidence based. Theyhave been pushed and pulled
across a number of differentsectors, different kinds of
(18:27):
expertise has weighed into this.And so the words are very
carefully chosen and thequestions are testing quite
specific domains related tothese 13 factors. It is possible
to get tailored engagementsurveys that measure that would
accomplish a very similar thingto the Guarding Minds at Work.
(18:49):
What we love about GuardingMinds is that we know it's
evidence based and that we knowit's free.
It's accessible to absolutelyeveryone. But there are a lot of
professionals. But what willoften happen with consultants
related to these kinds ofsurveys is that while there may
be a little bit more choice, atleast if they're done by
(19:10):
professionals, which, you know,that's what we're talking about
here. They will still bechoosing from a bank of
questions that are evidencebased. And if somebody is, you
know, maybe testing out aconsultant, that's actually a
good thing to test.
Like, you know, if they say,yeah, we can work on the
(19:31):
questions and completely editthem together, actually might be
a little bit of a flag for me.
Jessica Samuels (19:36):
Okay. You brought up an interesting thing
there. So there's the guardingminds. You mentioned a
consultant. What are some otherthings a workplace can do to
kind of take those steps tomanage you know, and establish
that respectful, you know,psychological safety in a
workplace.
Imagine CMHA Kelowna, throughthat two years of working
(20:00):
through that, you didn't only dothe guarding mind survey, other
things happened.
Candance Giesbrecht (20:04):
Yeah, there are other things. Yeah. So I
mean, you know, the suggestionfor, you know, organizations who
are wanting to do this is like,ultimately, we want to find
ways, and ideally multiple waysfor people to tell us how
they're doing and how it'sgoing. And so there may be a
combination of you might dofocus group kinds of sessions,
(20:26):
you know, opportunities wherewithin a group setting and and
you could have a neutral personor it could be run by senior
staff or the HR department ifyou have one. So it could be in
a group setting, it could besurvey, and then there's
questions around anonymous ornot.
(20:48):
But the hope is that we'refinding ways to get that two way
feedback and that we're creatingthose conditions and those
opportunities where we can knownot just at a point in time,
which can be very valuable andimportant, but that we have
opportunities and ways whenpeople can tell us when they
(21:13):
have an idea of what's goingwell, and also what they would
like to see happen differently.And just when you think you've
nailed it, you probably havesome more work to do. And this
is one of those things that'salso time intensive, takes a lot
of takes a lot of time andinvestment and circling back. I
(21:34):
mean, we were just talking aboutit today that, that, you know,
we, it's been a while since wecircled back to staff and told
everybody about the kinds ofthings that we've been working
on from when we asked them howthey're doing. So, so it takes
time and intention.
But, you know, going back againto something I said last time,
(21:54):
my argument is you'll pay eitherway. So you either pay in
investing in some of theproactive conversations, or
you're going to pay on the otherend when you start seeing high
turnover or you start seeingsome toxic behaviors or you
start seeing some unhealthy, youknow, conflict or things like
(22:14):
that that are happening, lostproductivity, lost days of work
and so on. Employers are goingto pay either way. You pay
either way. Okay, thank you somuch, Candace.
Jessica Samuels (22:24):
Yeah, you're welcome. Well, hopefully
somewhere in there, have someideas about how to prevent
burnout, whether it's in theworkplace or at work. And if
you're an individual who's anemployer in a workplace and you
want to find ways to foster amentally healthy workplace, of
course, we're going to havethose resource links for you on
(22:45):
the WayForward podcast pagepresented by Bean Credit Union.
As always, if you have questionsabout this episode or any
episode, you can email us atcolonacmhacolona dot org. You
can always email us atawayforwardcmhacolona dot org.
In the meantime, please takegood care. Beam Credit Union
(23:07):
supports mental healthinitiatives across British
Columbia because caring for eachother builds stronger, more
connected communities. United asone, BEAM's founding credit
unions now serve 190,000 membersacross BC.
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