October 9, 2025 • 32 mins
Being a first responder means running toward the situations most of us run away from. But that comes with an emotional and mental toll. In this episode, Jessica speaks with Kelowna Fire Captain David McCarthy, who shares what it’s like to experience trauma on the job and how the fire department is working to ensure firefighters get the support they need.
David discusses the evolution of Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) within the Kelowna Fire Department, the importance of peer support and early intervention, and how breaking the stigma around mental health has changed the culture for first responders. He also touches on new partnerships with CMHA Kelowna that are helping connect firefighters and their families to mental health resources and education.
Key Takeaways:
- Mental health support for first responders has come a long way — but it’s still evolving.
- Peer support and connection among crews can make all the difference after a traumatic call.
- Families play a crucial role in helping first responders find balance and healing.
Listen now to learn how Kelowna’s firefighters are building a healthier, more open approach to mental wellness — for themselves, their families, and their community.
A Way Forward: Conversations on Mental Health is presented by Beem Credit Union, proud to support honest conversations that help build stronger, healthier communities.
Resources
https://bcfirstrespondersmentalhealth.com/
https://www.bcpffa.net/mental-health-resources
Mental Health Support Services | Canadian Mental Health Association Kelowna
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Samuels (00:00):
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A
Way Forward presented by BeamCredit Union. I'd like to
acknowledge this podcast takesplace on the ancestral,
traditional, and unceded landsof the Okanagan Selix people.
Kelowna fire captain DavidMcCarthy joins me today, and
he's going to talk about themental health toll of being a
(00:21):
first responder from afirefighter perspective.
But he's also going to talkabout the steps the department
is taking to support itsmembers. Credit Union is proud
to sponsor today's episode. Withdeep roots in BC and a
commitment to your financialjourney, Beam believes wellness,
mental and financial starts withsupport you can count on. David,
(00:44):
thank you so much for beinghere. You've been with the fire
department for quite a fewyears.
Why don't we start with a littlebit of your background and
history there?
David McCarthy (00:53):
Okay. I started actually about a week after my
daughter was born. I joined theWestside Fire and I was there
for two years. Then I got hiredon in 2002 with the Kelowna Fire
Department.
Jessica Samuels (01:10):
Okay. So really you started in 2000 and then
2002 with the fire department.Yes. So we're talking like
twenty
David McCarthy (01:17):
five twenty five years.
Jessica Samuels (01:20):
You must have seen a lot. And of course, the
whole point of today is to talkabout mental health and first
responders from a firefighterperspective. Let's go back to
twenty, twenty five years ago.You know, when we talked, before
we started recording, you had aline to me and you said, it's
(01:41):
not if, it's when. And we weretalking about when you will get
a call that really that reallyhits you.
When you got that call or thosecalls back then, how did you
manage? How did how did youmanage as a group or as a
department?
David McCarthy (01:58):
Well, the fire department, most fire
departments are a real family.So you eat, you sleep, you
drink, you do everything withthis group of people. Right? And
so there's a real camaraderie.And so, you know, if there was
something bugging me or buggingsomeone else, it's as simple as
(02:19):
sitting with somebody and havinga quick chat just to make sure
they're okay or get to thebottom of what's stuck.
Jessica Samuels (02:27):
Right. I feel like there's, so there's two
points here. I think that, thatthere's an element of the, of
the role as a first responderthat is unique to this type of
position, whether it's fire orother first responders out
there, that it is the nature ofyour job to go towards,
(02:47):
uncertainty, potentially danger.And that's unique to these
roles. I like you talk aboutafterwards, you know, just
sitting and having aconversation with somebody.
Were those conversations hard?Because I would imagine there
would take some time to process.Or maybe you don't want to talk
about it right away.
David McCarthy (03:08):
I'm not a biologist, but we have done some
training with some clinicalcounselors and people that are
highly educated. And yeah,sometimes you do get stuck. And
that's just the brain trying torelate what you've seen to
something else in your database.If it can't find one, that's
(03:30):
when you get the spinning wheel.The sounds come back, the smells
come back, the sight comes back.
You may not even realize it, butif you had a really bad MVA
somewhere and then months lateryou drive by that intersection,
there's a very good chance thatthat whole call will come back
(03:52):
to you.
Jessica Samuels (03:52):
Right. And in those moments, that's where you
would rely on your work familyto use your words before a
family to say, Hey, you rememberthat call? Yep. I caught and
have those conversations andwork through it.
David McCarthy (04:06):
I mean, if it's a bad enough call, I will try to
initiate some of our programsthat we have through the fire
department. And so that itdoesn't get that far. We like
to, you know, the quicker youcan deal with it, the quicker
you can get past it or learn tolive with it.
Jessica Samuels (04:25):
Right. Learn to live with it. That sounds easier
said than done.
David McCarthy (04:28):
It is sometimes.
Jessica Samuels (04:29):
Yeah.
David McCarthy (04:30):
Yeah, it is.
Jessica Samuels (04:30):
So let's fast forward to you. You referenced
programs there. Let's fastforward to when some of these
programs became official. Let'stalk a little bit about, there
was a specific thing thathappened in our community, in
the Kelowna and Okanagancommunity that led to developing
what we call the CISM, so theCritical Incident Stress
Management Team.
David McCarthy (04:49):
Yeah, it was my first incidents with it was
after the two thousand and threefire. Once that was all said and
done, we had somebody come andtalk to the group. Then It was a
little larger than we like to donow. We want to keep it as small
as we can just for timing andeverything. But everybody was
(05:14):
involved.
That was the problem with this.So you don't really get the time
to go through everything youneed to go through back then,
but it was just the beginning ofthe program here in Kelowna.
Jessica Samuels (05:27):
So the two thousand and three fires
happened and they recognizedthat this was such a huge
impact, not only to the broadcommunity but to the first
responders and obviouslyfirefighters that were taking
part and the ripple out effectsthat they, that this program
came to be. Did it existelsewhere?
David McCarthy (05:43):
It was in the beginning, We've realized for a
long time the amount of suicidethat's in the fire department,
the ambulance, the police, themilitary, anybody that deals
with sudden and chaotic traumayou know, that you can't really
prepare for. And, you know,we'll get some information when
(06:06):
we get dispatched, but you neverknow what you're walking into
until you get to the scene.
Jessica Samuels (06:11):
And that would would that be pretty regular in
that, not through any nefariousor anybody's done a bad job. But
to go back to the point of ofyou folks walking into a scene
that could be, like you said,sudden, could be changing by the
moment. You may have anexpectation of what you're
walking into, but then what youget there, it could be
(06:33):
different.
David McCarthy (06:33):
Totally different. Yeah. And that just
depends on who made the initial911 call, what their level
knowledge of the incident,anything like that. Because our
dispatchers can only go by whatthey're told. And if it goes to
BCAS first.
Jessica Samuels (06:53):
BCAS, oh ambulance service.
David McCarthy (06:54):
Sorry, yeah. Their dispatch is I think mostly
in Kamloops. And then they sendthe call to the fire department
here if it's a medical in natureor an MVA. So we rely on the
people on scene giving anaccurate description and then an
accurate description from theirdispatch to ours.
Jessica Samuels (07:14):
And from a perspective, you mentioned the
BC ambulance service. I meanwhat percentage of the time are
you, to be literal, the firstresponder to the scene?
David McCarthy (07:25):
It depends on where we are, where in the city
you are. Station 4 out in themission, quite often they're
alone for could be 15 or 20because the ambulance stations
are downtown and in Rutland. Soif it's a busy night and there's
already a couple calls going on,it could be twenty minutes
(07:45):
before they get out to the SouthCrest or Kettle Valley areas.
Downtown Core, we have theambulance service there. So it's
about fiftyfifty when we show upfirst or when we show up and
they're already on scene.
Jessica Samuels (07:59):
Right, and do you stay on scene until the
situation has, I don't know theright language here has been
resolved or neutralized?Mitigated. Mitigated. I love
that word.
David McCarthy (08:09):
Yeah, we with respond with respect to a first
response call, we stay thereuntil they release us.
Jessica Samuels (08:16):
Okay.
David McCarthy (08:17):
So until they're comfortable enough that they
have the situation undercontrol, they'll keep us there.
Jessica Samuels (08:24):
Right. So to go back now, when we're talking
about the CISM team and the2,003 wildfires, because I think
we just, identified something.You're with the fire department.
David McCarthy (08:37):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (08:37):
So fire is in the name, and, but you're also
first responders. And we justwent over that in terms of, you
know, fiftyfifty or depending onwhere you are in the community.
You could be the firstresponders for things that are
other than fire. Yes. Obviously,if it's fire, you're on the
scene until it's completelymitigated.
David McCarthy (08:56):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (08:57):
Okay.
David McCarthy (08:57):
Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (08:58):
And so then now, it's interesting to me then
that the CISM team was developedafter a fire. Because not to say
that it's any less, triggeringor, traumatic. But all this
time, that was reallysignificant at the time, once in
(09:20):
a hundred year event in Kelowna.But meantime, all these other
times, day in, day out, you andthe members are responding to
some pretty significant things.
David McCarthy (09:31):
Yes. And not only medicals and fires, we go
to motor vehicle accidents. Wehave a technical rescue team
that goes to high angle rescues,low angle rescues. We do ice
rescue. We have the marinerescue on the lake that we
(09:53):
respond to boating accidents andthings of that nature.
So yeah, we do pretty mucheverything in town hazmat.
Jessica Samuels (10:02):
So twenty three or twenty two years later after
this support management kind ofprogram has been implemented.
What exactly happens in terms ofthe way that it's supporting
members in the myriad ofsituations that you just
outlined there? Well, have itactually in its development has
(10:26):
grown quite a
David McCarthy (10:27):
bit over the last twenty years. We started
with just our program calleddebriefing, which means that
usually between twenty four andforty eight hours after a bad
event, we'll do a debriefingwhere we walk the members that
were in attendance through kindof an overview of the call and
(10:48):
then what they did at that callbecause it changes for
everybody. What they did andwhat they saw can be completely
different from the two guys ortwo people in the back of the
truck. So we go through that andthen we dip into how it made
them feel and anything thatthey're having trouble with. So
(11:08):
we deal with that kind of asituation for everybody that was
on scene.
That's what we focused onoriginally as a team. And I was
not part of it. I only came tothe team about six or seven
years ago. So I'm not going totake credit for creating this
(11:29):
incredible community that wehave. A lot of the groundwork
was laid before I was on scene.
So that's where it started. Thenwe recognized a need for
something called a diffusing. Soif a truck goes to a bad call,
(11:49):
two or three members of the teamwill show up at the hall and
we'll talk to them about whatthey did and what they saw. Then
we'll gauge whether the crew asa whole is able to go on or if
they need replacing.
Jessica Samuels (12:02):
Right. Okay. Permanent replacing?
David McCarthy (12:05):
No, just for the day.
Jessica Samuels (12:06):
Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's something that has
happened where they've neededreplacing. So what does that
look like?
David McCarthy (12:14):
Usually I'll get a call from somebody about it
and then we'll organize thediffusing and then I'll talk to
my boss, the platoon captain,and let them know that this
engine has been browned out fora couple hours until we can do
our assessment.
Jessica Samuels (12:31):
Okay.
David McCarthy (12:31):
And to let them Or I'll let them know that
there's a possibility that we'llneed a new truck of people.
Jessica Samuels (12:37):
Right. And is that You've you talk a lot about
community and family amongst themembers. So you need a new truck
of people. Is that you're justbringing in the on call folks?
How that message?
David McCarthy (12:48):
We'll put out a call and they'll respond whether
they can do it or not. And thenwe'll send them to the hall. And
then once they're there, we'lldeal with the other people
whether, And again, it's a bitof a slippery slope. We don't
want to send people that arestruggling to a house that's
empty. Lots of people have wivesand kids at home or husbands and
(13:09):
kids, they're able to managethere in their safe space.
We have a lot of new young,mostly men, and some of them
live alone. We have to becognizant of the fact that it
may not be the best idea to sendthem home alone.
Jessica Samuels (13:30):
What would you do in those situations?
David McCarthy (13:32):
Probably send them to the main hall. Get them
to sweep the truck Bay Floor.Let them work out. Let them hang
out with the guys that are onduty and just have people there
that are aware of what's goingon and able to help.
Jessica Samuels (13:49):
Okay. What if you realize that the member
needs some longer term support?What kind of mechanisms are in
place for that?
David McCarthy (13:58):
We've actually recently started working with a
member of the CMHA and she'sdeveloping resources that we can
access on a website. The BCPFFA,the Professional Firefighters
Association in the province hasgone through and spent a lot of
(14:18):
time and effort to vet localclinicians in a lot of the
bigger centers. Because it's notfor everybody. Some clinicians
don't wanna, or aren't able todeal with our culture.
Jessica Samuels (14:36):
With your culture?
David McCarthy (14:37):
The fire department culture. Okay. The
whole thing, yeah.
Jessica Samuels (14:41):
And what do you mean by that? Like the work, the
personality that may come withit? Like what?
David McCarthy (14:49):
All of
Jessica Samuels (14:49):
it. Okay. Yeah. Because it might be challenged.
I mean, I've not going togeneralize here, but I've met a
couple firefighters or folks whowork with the ambulance service.
Stoic is the word I think I usedwith you previously. Yes. And
it's like, it's like you hearlike you don't want to burden
others with your troubles.
David McCarthy (15:10):
That's a lot of it. Yeah. I we have like, I have
two very good friends that I'vehad my entire life and I share
lots with them. That's one of myoutlets. I don't like to burden
my wife with the gory details.
Lots of the cultures aroundthat. You can give a little, but
(15:34):
you can't give it all. Somecounselors, like I said, we did
a meeting with a group of them.There were three of us of
differing seniorities in thefire department. I think there
was about 20.
And we talked to them, weanswered all their questions, we
did all that. I think at the endof it, 10 or 12 of them walked
(15:56):
out and said, no thanks. Really?Yeah, don't want to deal with
that. Which is fair enough aslong as they know their
limitations because it's likesecondary trauma.
Once we start unloading, can bequite a bit.
Jessica Samuels (16:12):
Well, and I can definitely understand that. And
I mean, you have more thantwenty five or twenty five years
full experience. Feel like therewould be a pile on effect. There
might be one. So if you'retalking about, so the idea is
(16:32):
that you would, you have morethan one incident, I would
imagine, I don't speak for you.
That would be kind of you'remanaging or in the back of your
mind. Yes. And so what are yousaying? You talk about one and
it might lead to another, mightlead to another.
David McCarthy (16:46):
Yeah. And just the depths of where like you use
the word stoic or we use theword stoic. And again, back to
talking to some people that aremore well trained. Part of the
issue with first responders iswe have to be able to shut off
(17:08):
our emotions. You cannot do yourjob without doing that.
The problem is that the braincompletely shuts down the
emotional aspect of an eventuntil you're done your job. And
then the battle is getting backto normal, getting back to
(17:30):
balanced. That's where theissues arise with mental health.
It's not what we do per se, it'strying to get the mind and the
body balanced after the event.
Jessica Samuels (17:42):
Right. Yeah. And balance, After the event,
mentioned going back to family,taking part in, can you pick up
some milk on the way home? We'vegot to celebrate so and so's
birthday. Yeah.
You take out the garbage.
David McCarthy (18:00):
Lawn needs mowing.
Jessica Samuels (18:02):
Yeah. How do you find that balance?
David McCarthy (18:07):
It's I mean, like, one of the things we
preach after we do a diffusingor a debriefing is try to get
back to your normal as quick asyou can with respect to do you
work out every day? Do you liketo hike in the woods? Do you
like to go paddle boarding? Doyou like to whatever your normal
routine is in a day, to get backto that as soon as possible.
(18:31):
There's going be some downtimewhere you're trying to get your
mind balanced before you doanything else.
But as quickly as you can getback to your normal routine, the
better you are.
Jessica Samuels (18:44):
Right. We've spent some time talking about
after, a traumatic event. Withthis CISM, is there any stuff
that is done for trainees orwhen people are first coming on
or even before they've gone tothat to kind of better prepare
them?
David McCarthy (19:01):
Yeah, we try to hit the team will send two or
three members to the recruitclasses before they graduate.
We'll try to go through what wecan in the resilient minds. So
that's kind of giving them theawareness of what's going to
(19:25):
happen or the types of thingsthat can happen and then what
they can look for in themselvesto see if they're struggling.
And so we try to, pardon me, wetry to give them all that at
least a buffer at the beginning.And then the older, older, the
(19:49):
more senior people keep an eyeon the new recruits pretty good.
When we find out one of them hasbeen involved in a bad event,
then we were pretty relentlesschecking up, probably till they
get frustrated.
Jessica Samuels (20:04):
But that's a good thing. I mean, when we talk
about mental health in general,we talk about having a support
network and someone saying, Hey,that was a tough situation, or
that was a horrible situation.Are you okay? Or hey, you don't
seem to be yourself after X, Y,and Z. Can we talk?
David McCarthy (20:22):
Exactly. And that's part of the progression
of the team is now we'refocusing a lot of our time and
effort and making sure everybodyon the team is versed in
something called peer support.That's pretty much exactly what
it is. And even if we as teammembers don't see that change,
(20:43):
that shift, somebody else will.And they'll get a hold of
somebody on the team.
Usually it comes to me and thenI try to figure out who's the
best match because we havevarying seniorities, varying
shifts, and you know the peoplethat hang out normally and the
(21:05):
stuff they do, camping, hunting,fishing. There's all a bunch of
subgroups and it can usually getpretty close with somebody to
provide some help.
Jessica Samuels (21:17):
How big is the CISM team?
David McCarthy (21:20):
Oh, we just got some new people in. And again,
it's always evolving becausepeople get into different areas
of their life. When you havesmall children and your partner,
say, is at home and then youhave a little more freedom to do
some stuff. Then the kids get toa point where they take a lot
(21:41):
more of your effort. We've hadtwo or three step downs saying,
I don't have time right now.
I've got too much going on. Wealways try to bring enough
people on that we're able tofunction across all different
shifts. So I think I have 24 onthe team now.
Jessica Samuels (21:59):
Wow. On the Kelowna team?
David McCarthy (22:00):
Yeah. Wow.
Jessica Samuels (22:01):
That sounds like a great number. I'm sure
you could always use more, butis that enough?
David McCarthy (22:08):
It is for now. But what we're doing is we're
developing a program where wecan educate the rest of the
crews on peer support. So thatmy goal is to have everybody to
have at least a workingknowledge or an awareness of the
program of what it's for and howthey can help out.
Jessica Samuels (22:28):
Right, right. And so then other fire
departments in our area, do theyhave, well I shouldn't actually
narrow it down. Let me ask this.You know, we're talking about
mental health of firstresponders. What are, what's the
nature of these types of teamsamongst the first responder
sector?
Like, do they have kind ofeither this specific team or
things like it?
David McCarthy (22:49):
The other disciplines? Yeah. I don't
believe they do.
Jessica Samuels (22:53):
Really?
David McCarthy (22:53):
Not like ours.
Jessica Samuels (22:55):
So what do mean like formalized?
David McCarthy (22:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't. But I can't say for
certain, but I've never heard ofthem having something like we
have. Having said that, I cantell you that most of the major
centers and even some groups ofpaid on calls, will have a CISM
(23:18):
team for the department.
Jessica Samuels (23:19):
For the fire department? Yeah. Right. Okay.
And across other municipalitiesas well.
West Kelowna?
David McCarthy (23:24):
West Kelowna has one for sure. Everybody down on
the coast has one. Kamloops hasone.
Jessica Samuels (23:29):
Okay. So like, it, do you think it's a
provincial? Like, I guess Iwanna know what the origins of
this are. Is this a provincialinitiative? Is this a national
initiative?
David McCarthy (23:40):
I would say it was probably both, but we were
driven by the provincial.
Jessica Samuels (23:44):
Okay.
David McCarthy (23:44):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And they're a huge
support, huge support, hugeresource. It's really, again,
because we're all in the sameunion and we're all one big
happy family.
So we share and we help out.Very often, but once in a while
(24:06):
when something nasty happens, ifit affects enough of their
department, we'll send peoplefrom our team to help them.
Jessica Samuels (24:15):
That family aspect you were talking
David McCarthy (24:18):
about We spend a lot of time with the guys from
people from West Kelowna, golf,hockey, camping. There's lots of
inter department stuff that goeson. So we're pretty close with
West Kelowna Fire Department.
Jessica Samuels (24:36):
How do you think the integration of the
CISM team has changed, the, theway that, traumatic or nasty
incidences like you talked aboutit and how, the mental health
toll, the impact of the mentalhealth toll on the members. How
do you think that has managedthat over the decades?
David McCarthy (24:58):
Well, again, we're always evolving and trying
to make ourselves better. Butfrom when I started, it's a
complete 01/1980 from where wewere to where we are now. And
trying to continue to downplaythe stigma is always our biggest
(25:21):
challenge, but it's gettingbetter because we're gonna start
educating the officers goingthrough their officer courses.
So it becomes just a normal partof their day and they won't
think about it. Some of us olderguys, again, when we came on,
there was nothing.
(25:43):
So that's kind of what we knew.But now everybody that's
becoming an officer will havethe education at least enough to
recognize when I need a call orsomeone from the team needs a
call or something like that sothat this call doesn't just go
(26:05):
by the wayside. Gone are thedays of the captain turning
around and asking the guys inthe back seat if they're okay
and they say yes and then that'sdone because it takes twenty
four hours for your brain toprocess what's going on. So
that's not an accuraterepresentation of their mental
health.
Jessica Samuels (26:21):
Right. So they may turn around and say you're
okay. Or is everyone okay inthat moment, but they'll ask and
and again.
David McCarthy (26:29):
Well, I'm hoping but before, when I was younger,
when I was just starting out,that was the end of the
conversation. Are you good?Yeah, we're good. Okay, good
enough. And then let's justforget about it.
But now we know. And again, it'sprovincial, it's national,
mental health shouldn't be asecret anymore. Know, society's
(26:50):
changed. It's so much hardernowadays than it was when I was
younger too. And it's just afact of life for most people.
Jessica Samuels (26:58):
Right. Yeah. How do you know the program's
working? Like how do you, youknow, as you assess where next
to go with elements of theprogram? You do surveys?
Do you talk to the members? Likehow is that measured?
David McCarthy (27:15):
Well, there's always word-of-mouth that gets
around, but I would measure itby days lost to mental illness
injuries. Okay.
Jessica Samuels (27:26):
Yeah. And that number has changed then?
David McCarthy (27:29):
It's getting lower.
Jessica Samuels (27:30):
Yeah. I mean, guess the challenge with that as
well, though, is you'd have tobe careful because you spoke
before about stigma. So ifyou're measuring it by days
lost, you would hope that it'sjust not that they're not
talking about it. True. Yeah.
Yeah.
David McCarthy (27:46):
Yeah. But I'm aware of the people that are,
you know, and some people justneed to take a knee, depending
on what's going on in theirworld, aging parents, divorce,
whatever the case may be.Sometimes people just need to
take a knee for a bit. Andthat's okay because when you're
(28:10):
dealing with the events we dealwith, you pretty much have to be
present. And if your mind'ssomewhere else because of
something going on in your life,then you're not doing yourself
or anyone else on the truck afavor.
And I think that's pretty clearto them, which is good. I mean,
even if the days lost due tomental health injuries doesn't
change, but people are comingforward rather than suffering
(28:34):
with it, that's a victory.
Jessica Samuels (28:36):
Totally agree. Do you have any advice for
friends or loved ones or familymembers of first responder? You
mentioned earlier about tryingto get back to your normal as
soon as possible, or even ifyou're someone whose truck has
been browned you're going hometo family. In your time and how
(28:59):
you work with your family, sometips?
David McCarthy (29:04):
Just about how to get back to normal?
Jessica Samuels (29:06):
How to support you or a loved one who is a
first responder?
David McCarthy (29:12):
Yeah, well, funny you mentioned that we're
actually getting an eventorganized for the November 1 for
our significant others so thatthey get an introduction to the
fire department culture. Again,some of the new recruits have
past training or have been partof other departments. Others
(29:34):
haven't. So we're going toinvite their families, their
significant others to an eventwhere we talk about the types of
stressors they're going to gothrough, the possible side
effects of that. Then we'regoing to go through, like I did
briefly here, the resources wehave available as a team.
(29:55):
And then we're going to have theCanadian Mental Health
Association go through thatcomputer program that she's
developed and how easy it is forthem to seek help. Sometimes
they suffer too. You can see achange in your spouse or in your
(30:18):
partner or whatever it doesaffect you and kids don't really
understand. So we're goingthrough a whole bunch of
resources that are available,not only for adults, but for
children as well. Because themore stable the home is, the
better it is for us.
Jessica Samuels (30:35):
Right. And twenty five years on the job.
How are you doing? I wouldimagine that while you're still
on the job, it's still a work inprogress.
David McCarthy (30:46):
Yeah, it is. Yeah, always. And again, there's
some places where I drive bywhere I get taken back to calls
that were particularlyunsettling. But through talking
to them, like I said, thebiggest thing is for first
responders of any discipline tofind a counselor to talk to. And
(31:07):
the earlier the better.
I tell that to all the recruits.Go find one now because it might
take you two years and you maynot need it now, but you need to
develop the relationship.Because sooner or later you
will.
Jessica Samuels (31:20):
David, thank you so much for the chat, and
thank you so much for your workthat you do in the community and
making sure that we are allsafe.
David McCarthy (31:27):
Thank you very much for having me.
Jessica Samuels (31:29):
We will provide some additional resources based
conversation. You can find thoseon the A Way Forward podcast
page at cmhacolona.org. And ifyou have any questions about
this topic, an interview, or anyother one, can always email me
directly atawayforwardcmhacolona dot org.
In the meantime, please do takegood care. This episode is
(31:53):
supported by Beam Credit Union.
With deep roots in BC and acommitment to your financial
journey, Beam proudly backsmental health conversations that
help build stronger, healthiercommunities.
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels. Welcome to A
Way Forward presented by BeamCredit Union. I'd like to
acknowledge this podcast takesplace on the ancestral,
traditional, and unceded landsof the Okanagan Selix people.
Kelowna fire captain DavidMcCarthy joins me today, and
he's going to talk about themental health toll of being a
(00:21):
first responder from afirefighter perspective.
But he's also going to talkabout the steps the department
is taking to support itsmembers. Credit Union is proud
to sponsor today's episode. Withdeep roots in BC and a
commitment to your financialjourney, Beam believes wellness,
mental and financial starts withsupport you can count on. David,
(00:44):
thank you so much for beinghere. You've been with the fire
department for quite a fewyears.
Why don't we start with a littlebit of your background and
history there?
David McCarthy (00:53):
Okay. I started actually about a week after my
daughter was born. I joined theWestside Fire and I was there
for two years. Then I got hiredon in 2002 with the Kelowna Fire
Department.
Jessica Samuels (01:10):
Okay. So really you started in 2000 and then
2002 with the fire department.Yes. So we're talking like
twenty
David McCarthy (01:17):
five twenty five years.
Jessica Samuels (01:20):
You must have seen a lot. And of course, the
whole point of today is to talkabout mental health and first
responders from a firefighterperspective. Let's go back to
twenty, twenty five years ago.You know, when we talked, before
we started recording, you had aline to me and you said, it's
(01:41):
not if, it's when. And we weretalking about when you will get
a call that really that reallyhits you.
When you got that call or thosecalls back then, how did you
manage? How did how did youmanage as a group or as a
department?
David McCarthy (01:58):
Well, the fire department, most fire
departments are a real family.So you eat, you sleep, you
drink, you do everything withthis group of people. Right? And
so there's a real camaraderie.And so, you know, if there was
something bugging me or buggingsomeone else, it's as simple as
(02:19):
sitting with somebody and havinga quick chat just to make sure
they're okay or get to thebottom of what's stuck.
Jessica Samuels (02:27):
Right. I feel like there's, so there's two
points here. I think that, thatthere's an element of the, of
the role as a first responderthat is unique to this type of
position, whether it's fire orother first responders out
there, that it is the nature ofyour job to go towards,
(02:47):
uncertainty, potentially danger.And that's unique to these
roles. I like you talk aboutafterwards, you know, just
sitting and having aconversation with somebody.
Were those conversations hard?Because I would imagine there
would take some time to process.Or maybe you don't want to talk
about it right away.
David McCarthy (03:08):
I'm not a biologist, but we have done some
training with some clinicalcounselors and people that are
highly educated. And yeah,sometimes you do get stuck. And
that's just the brain trying torelate what you've seen to
something else in your database.If it can't find one, that's
(03:30):
when you get the spinning wheel.The sounds come back, the smells
come back, the sight comes back.
You may not even realize it, butif you had a really bad MVA
somewhere and then months lateryou drive by that intersection,
there's a very good chance thatthat whole call will come back
(03:52):
to you.
Jessica Samuels (03:52):
Right. And in those moments, that's where you
would rely on your work familyto use your words before a
family to say, Hey, you rememberthat call? Yep. I caught and
have those conversations andwork through it.
David McCarthy (04:06):
I mean, if it's a bad enough call, I will try to
initiate some of our programsthat we have through the fire
department. And so that itdoesn't get that far. We like
to, you know, the quicker youcan deal with it, the quicker
you can get past it or learn tolive with it.
Jessica Samuels (04:25):
Right. Learn to live with it. That sounds easier
said than done.
David McCarthy (04:28):
It is sometimes.
Jessica Samuels (04:29):
Yeah.
David McCarthy (04:30):
Yeah, it is.
Jessica Samuels (04:30):
So let's fast forward to you. You referenced
programs there. Let's fastforward to when some of these
programs became official. Let'stalk a little bit about, there
was a specific thing thathappened in our community, in
the Kelowna and Okanagancommunity that led to developing
what we call the CISM, so theCritical Incident Stress
Management Team.
David McCarthy (04:49):
Yeah, it was my first incidents with it was
after the two thousand and threefire. Once that was all said and
done, we had somebody come andtalk to the group. Then It was a
little larger than we like to donow. We want to keep it as small
as we can just for timing andeverything. But everybody was
(05:14):
involved.
That was the problem with this.So you don't really get the time
to go through everything youneed to go through back then,
but it was just the beginning ofthe program here in Kelowna.
Jessica Samuels (05:27):
So the two thousand and three fires
happened and they recognizedthat this was such a huge
impact, not only to the broadcommunity but to the first
responders and obviouslyfirefighters that were taking
part and the ripple out effectsthat they, that this program
came to be. Did it existelsewhere?
David McCarthy (05:43):
It was in the beginning, We've realized for a
long time the amount of suicidethat's in the fire department,
the ambulance, the police, themilitary, anybody that deals
with sudden and chaotic traumayou know, that you can't really
prepare for. And, you know,we'll get some information when
(06:06):
we get dispatched, but you neverknow what you're walking into
until you get to the scene.
Jessica Samuels (06:11):
And that would would that be pretty regular in
that, not through any nefariousor anybody's done a bad job. But
to go back to the point of ofyou folks walking into a scene
that could be, like you said,sudden, could be changing by the
moment. You may have anexpectation of what you're
walking into, but then what youget there, it could be
(06:33):
different.
David McCarthy (06:33):
Totally different. Yeah. And that just
depends on who made the initial911 call, what their level
knowledge of the incident,anything like that. Because our
dispatchers can only go by whatthey're told. And if it goes to
BCAS first.
Jessica Samuels (06:53):
BCAS, oh ambulance service.
David McCarthy (06:54):
Sorry, yeah. Their dispatch is I think mostly
in Kamloops. And then they sendthe call to the fire department
here if it's a medical in natureor an MVA. So we rely on the
people on scene giving anaccurate description and then an
accurate description from theirdispatch to ours.
Jessica Samuels (07:14):
And from a perspective, you mentioned the
BC ambulance service. I meanwhat percentage of the time are
you, to be literal, the firstresponder to the scene?
David McCarthy (07:25):
It depends on where we are, where in the city
you are. Station 4 out in themission, quite often they're
alone for could be 15 or 20because the ambulance stations
are downtown and in Rutland. Soif it's a busy night and there's
already a couple calls going on,it could be twenty minutes
(07:45):
before they get out to the SouthCrest or Kettle Valley areas.
Downtown Core, we have theambulance service there. So it's
about fiftyfifty when we show upfirst or when we show up and
they're already on scene.
Jessica Samuels (07:59):
Right, and do you stay on scene until the
situation has, I don't know theright language here has been
resolved or neutralized?Mitigated. Mitigated. I love
that word.
David McCarthy (08:09):
Yeah, we with respond with respect to a first
response call, we stay thereuntil they release us.
Jessica Samuels (08:16):
Okay.
David McCarthy (08:17):
So until they're comfortable enough that they
have the situation undercontrol, they'll keep us there.
Jessica Samuels (08:24):
Right. So to go back now, when we're talking
about the CISM team and the2,003 wildfires, because I think
we just, identified something.You're with the fire department.
David McCarthy (08:37):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (08:37):
So fire is in the name, and, but you're also
first responders. And we justwent over that in terms of, you
know, fiftyfifty or depending onwhere you are in the community.
You could be the firstresponders for things that are
other than fire. Yes. Obviously,if it's fire, you're on the
scene until it's completelymitigated.
David McCarthy (08:56):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (08:57):
Okay.
David McCarthy (08:57):
Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (08:58):
And so then now, it's interesting to me then
that the CISM team was developedafter a fire. Because not to say
that it's any less, triggeringor, traumatic. But all this
time, that was reallysignificant at the time, once in
(09:20):
a hundred year event in Kelowna.But meantime, all these other
times, day in, day out, you andthe members are responding to
some pretty significant things.
David McCarthy (09:31):
Yes. And not only medicals and fires, we go
to motor vehicle accidents. Wehave a technical rescue team
that goes to high angle rescues,low angle rescues. We do ice
rescue. We have the marinerescue on the lake that we
(09:53):
respond to boating accidents andthings of that nature.
So yeah, we do pretty mucheverything in town hazmat.
Jessica Samuels (10:02):
So twenty three or twenty two years later after
this support management kind ofprogram has been implemented.
What exactly happens in terms ofthe way that it's supporting
members in the myriad ofsituations that you just
outlined there? Well, have itactually in its development has
(10:26):
grown quite a
David McCarthy (10:27):
bit over the last twenty years. We started
with just our program calleddebriefing, which means that
usually between twenty four andforty eight hours after a bad
event, we'll do a debriefingwhere we walk the members that
were in attendance through kindof an overview of the call and
(10:48):
then what they did at that callbecause it changes for
everybody. What they did andwhat they saw can be completely
different from the two guys ortwo people in the back of the
truck. So we go through that andthen we dip into how it made
them feel and anything thatthey're having trouble with. So
(11:08):
we deal with that kind of asituation for everybody that was
on scene.
That's what we focused onoriginally as a team. And I was
not part of it. I only came tothe team about six or seven
years ago. So I'm not going totake credit for creating this
(11:29):
incredible community that wehave. A lot of the groundwork
was laid before I was on scene.
So that's where it started. Thenwe recognized a need for
something called a diffusing. Soif a truck goes to a bad call,
(11:49):
two or three members of the teamwill show up at the hall and
we'll talk to them about whatthey did and what they saw. Then
we'll gauge whether the crew asa whole is able to go on or if
they need replacing.
Jessica Samuels (12:02):
Right. Okay. Permanent replacing?
David McCarthy (12:05):
No, just for the day.
Jessica Samuels (12:06):
Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's something that has
happened where they've neededreplacing. So what does that
look like?
David McCarthy (12:14):
Usually I'll get a call from somebody about it
and then we'll organize thediffusing and then I'll talk to
my boss, the platoon captain,and let them know that this
engine has been browned out fora couple hours until we can do
our assessment.
Jessica Samuels (12:31):
Okay.
David McCarthy (12:31):
And to let them Or I'll let them know that
there's a possibility that we'llneed a new truck of people.
Jessica Samuels (12:37):
Right. And is that You've you talk a lot about
community and family amongst themembers. So you need a new truck
of people. Is that you're justbringing in the on call folks?
How that message?
David McCarthy (12:48):
We'll put out a call and they'll respond whether
they can do it or not. And thenwe'll send them to the hall. And
then once they're there, we'lldeal with the other people
whether, And again, it's a bitof a slippery slope. We don't
want to send people that arestruggling to a house that's
empty. Lots of people have wivesand kids at home or husbands and
(13:09):
kids, they're able to managethere in their safe space.
We have a lot of new young,mostly men, and some of them
live alone. We have to becognizant of the fact that it
may not be the best idea to sendthem home alone.
Jessica Samuels (13:30):
What would you do in those situations?
David McCarthy (13:32):
Probably send them to the main hall. Get them
to sweep the truck Bay Floor.Let them work out. Let them hang
out with the guys that are onduty and just have people there
that are aware of what's goingon and able to help.
Jessica Samuels (13:49):
Okay. What if you realize that the member
needs some longer term support?What kind of mechanisms are in
place for that?
David McCarthy (13:58):
We've actually recently started working with a
member of the CMHA and she'sdeveloping resources that we can
access on a website. The BCPFFA,the Professional Firefighters
Association in the province hasgone through and spent a lot of
(14:18):
time and effort to vet localclinicians in a lot of the
bigger centers. Because it's notfor everybody. Some clinicians
don't wanna, or aren't able todeal with our culture.
Jessica Samuels (14:36):
With your culture?
David McCarthy (14:37):
The fire department culture. Okay. The
whole thing, yeah.
Jessica Samuels (14:41):
And what do you mean by that? Like the work, the
personality that may come withit? Like what?
David McCarthy (14:49):
All of
Jessica Samuels (14:49):
it. Okay. Yeah. Because it might be challenged.
I mean, I've not going togeneralize here, but I've met a
couple firefighters or folks whowork with the ambulance service.
Stoic is the word I think I usedwith you previously. Yes. And
it's like, it's like you hearlike you don't want to burden
others with your troubles.
David McCarthy (15:10):
That's a lot of it. Yeah. I we have like, I have
two very good friends that I'vehad my entire life and I share
lots with them. That's one of myoutlets. I don't like to burden
my wife with the gory details.
Lots of the cultures aroundthat. You can give a little, but
(15:34):
you can't give it all. Somecounselors, like I said, we did
a meeting with a group of them.There were three of us of
differing seniorities in thefire department. I think there
was about 20.
And we talked to them, weanswered all their questions, we
did all that. I think at the endof it, 10 or 12 of them walked
(15:56):
out and said, no thanks. Really?Yeah, don't want to deal with
that. Which is fair enough aslong as they know their
limitations because it's likesecondary trauma.
Once we start unloading, can bequite a bit.
Jessica Samuels (16:12):
Well, and I can definitely understand that. And
I mean, you have more thantwenty five or twenty five years
full experience. Feel like therewould be a pile on effect. There
might be one. So if you'retalking about, so the idea is
(16:32):
that you would, you have morethan one incident, I would
imagine, I don't speak for you.
That would be kind of you'remanaging or in the back of your
mind. Yes. And so what are yousaying? You talk about one and
it might lead to another, mightlead to another.
David McCarthy (16:46):
Yeah. And just the depths of where like you use
the word stoic or we use theword stoic. And again, back to
talking to some people that aremore well trained. Part of the
issue with first responders iswe have to be able to shut off
(17:08):
our emotions. You cannot do yourjob without doing that.
The problem is that the braincompletely shuts down the
emotional aspect of an eventuntil you're done your job. And
then the battle is getting backto normal, getting back to
(17:30):
balanced. That's where theissues arise with mental health.
It's not what we do per se, it'strying to get the mind and the
body balanced after the event.
Jessica Samuels (17:42):
Right. Yeah. And balance, After the event,
mentioned going back to family,taking part in, can you pick up
some milk on the way home? We'vegot to celebrate so and so's
birthday. Yeah.
You take out the garbage.
David McCarthy (18:00):
Lawn needs mowing.
Jessica Samuels (18:02):
Yeah. How do you find that balance?
David McCarthy (18:07):
It's I mean, like, one of the things we
preach after we do a diffusingor a debriefing is try to get
back to your normal as quick asyou can with respect to do you
work out every day? Do you liketo hike in the woods? Do you
like to go paddle boarding? Doyou like to whatever your normal
routine is in a day, to get backto that as soon as possible.
(18:31):
There's going be some downtimewhere you're trying to get your
mind balanced before you doanything else.
But as quickly as you can getback to your normal routine, the
better you are.
Jessica Samuels (18:44):
Right. We've spent some time talking about
after, a traumatic event. Withthis CISM, is there any stuff
that is done for trainees orwhen people are first coming on
or even before they've gone tothat to kind of better prepare
them?
David McCarthy (19:01):
Yeah, we try to hit the team will send two or
three members to the recruitclasses before they graduate.
We'll try to go through what wecan in the resilient minds. So
that's kind of giving them theawareness of what's going to
(19:25):
happen or the types of thingsthat can happen and then what
they can look for in themselvesto see if they're struggling.
And so we try to, pardon me, wetry to give them all that at
least a buffer at the beginning.And then the older, older, the
(19:49):
more senior people keep an eyeon the new recruits pretty good.
When we find out one of them hasbeen involved in a bad event,
then we were pretty relentlesschecking up, probably till they
get frustrated.
Jessica Samuels (20:04):
But that's a good thing. I mean, when we talk
about mental health in general,we talk about having a support
network and someone saying, Hey,that was a tough situation, or
that was a horrible situation.Are you okay? Or hey, you don't
seem to be yourself after X, Y,and Z. Can we talk?
David McCarthy (20:22):
Exactly. And that's part of the progression
of the team is now we'refocusing a lot of our time and
effort and making sure everybodyon the team is versed in
something called peer support.That's pretty much exactly what
it is. And even if we as teammembers don't see that change,
(20:43):
that shift, somebody else will.And they'll get a hold of
somebody on the team.
Usually it comes to me and thenI try to figure out who's the
best match because we havevarying seniorities, varying
shifts, and you know the peoplethat hang out normally and the
(21:05):
stuff they do, camping, hunting,fishing. There's all a bunch of
subgroups and it can usually getpretty close with somebody to
provide some help.
Jessica Samuels (21:17):
How big is the CISM team?
David McCarthy (21:20):
Oh, we just got some new people in. And again,
it's always evolving becausepeople get into different areas
of their life. When you havesmall children and your partner,
say, is at home and then youhave a little more freedom to do
some stuff. Then the kids get toa point where they take a lot
(21:41):
more of your effort. We've hadtwo or three step downs saying,
I don't have time right now.
I've got too much going on. Wealways try to bring enough
people on that we're able tofunction across all different
shifts. So I think I have 24 onthe team now.
Jessica Samuels (21:59):
Wow. On the Kelowna team?
David McCarthy (22:00):
Yeah. Wow.
Jessica Samuels (22:01):
That sounds like a great number. I'm sure
you could always use more, butis that enough?
David McCarthy (22:08):
It is for now. But what we're doing is we're
developing a program where wecan educate the rest of the
crews on peer support. So thatmy goal is to have everybody to
have at least a workingknowledge or an awareness of the
program of what it's for and howthey can help out.
Jessica Samuels (22:28):
Right, right. And so then other fire
departments in our area, do theyhave, well I shouldn't actually
narrow it down. Let me ask this.You know, we're talking about
mental health of firstresponders. What are, what's the
nature of these types of teamsamongst the first responder
sector?
Like, do they have kind ofeither this specific team or
things like it?
David McCarthy (22:49):
The other disciplines? Yeah. I don't
believe they do.
Jessica Samuels (22:53):
Really?
David McCarthy (22:53):
Not like ours.
Jessica Samuels (22:55):
So what do mean like formalized?
David McCarthy (22:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't. But I can't say for
certain, but I've never heard ofthem having something like we
have. Having said that, I cantell you that most of the major
centers and even some groups ofpaid on calls, will have a CISM
(23:18):
team for the department.
Jessica Samuels (23:19):
For the fire department? Yeah. Right. Okay.
And across other municipalitiesas well.
West Kelowna?
David McCarthy (23:24):
West Kelowna has one for sure. Everybody down on
the coast has one. Kamloops hasone.
Jessica Samuels (23:29):
Okay. So like, it, do you think it's a
provincial? Like, I guess Iwanna know what the origins of
this are. Is this a provincialinitiative? Is this a national
initiative?
David McCarthy (23:40):
I would say it was probably both, but we were
driven by the provincial.
Jessica Samuels (23:44):
Okay.
David McCarthy (23:44):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And they're a huge
support, huge support, hugeresource. It's really, again,
because we're all in the sameunion and we're all one big
happy family.
So we share and we help out.Very often, but once in a while
(24:06):
when something nasty happens, ifit affects enough of their
department, we'll send peoplefrom our team to help them.
Jessica Samuels (24:15):
That family aspect you were talking
David McCarthy (24:18):
about We spend a lot of time with the guys from
people from West Kelowna, golf,hockey, camping. There's lots of
inter department stuff that goeson. So we're pretty close with
West Kelowna Fire Department.
Jessica Samuels (24:36):
How do you think the integration of the
CISM team has changed, the, theway that, traumatic or nasty
incidences like you talked aboutit and how, the mental health
toll, the impact of the mentalhealth toll on the members. How
do you think that has managedthat over the decades?
David McCarthy (24:58):
Well, again, we're always evolving and trying
to make ourselves better. Butfrom when I started, it's a
complete 01/1980 from where wewere to where we are now. And
trying to continue to downplaythe stigma is always our biggest
(25:21):
challenge, but it's gettingbetter because we're gonna start
educating the officers goingthrough their officer courses.
So it becomes just a normal partof their day and they won't
think about it. Some of us olderguys, again, when we came on,
there was nothing.
(25:43):
So that's kind of what we knew.But now everybody that's
becoming an officer will havethe education at least enough to
recognize when I need a call orsomeone from the team needs a
call or something like that sothat this call doesn't just go
(26:05):
by the wayside. Gone are thedays of the captain turning
around and asking the guys inthe back seat if they're okay
and they say yes and then that'sdone because it takes twenty
four hours for your brain toprocess what's going on. So
that's not an accuraterepresentation of their mental
health.
Jessica Samuels (26:21):
Right. So they may turn around and say you're
okay. Or is everyone okay inthat moment, but they'll ask and
and again.
David McCarthy (26:29):
Well, I'm hoping but before, when I was younger,
when I was just starting out,that was the end of the
conversation. Are you good?Yeah, we're good. Okay, good
enough. And then let's justforget about it.
But now we know. And again, it'sprovincial, it's national,
mental health shouldn't be asecret anymore. Know, society's
(26:50):
changed. It's so much hardernowadays than it was when I was
younger too. And it's just afact of life for most people.
Jessica Samuels (26:58):
Right. Yeah. How do you know the program's
working? Like how do you, youknow, as you assess where next
to go with elements of theprogram? You do surveys?
Do you talk to the members? Likehow is that measured?
David McCarthy (27:15):
Well, there's always word-of-mouth that gets
around, but I would measure itby days lost to mental illness
injuries. Okay.
Jessica Samuels (27:26):
Yeah. And that number has changed then?
David McCarthy (27:29):
It's getting lower.
Jessica Samuels (27:30):
Yeah. I mean, guess the challenge with that as
well, though, is you'd have tobe careful because you spoke
before about stigma. So ifyou're measuring it by days
lost, you would hope that it'sjust not that they're not
talking about it. True. Yeah.
Yeah.
David McCarthy (27:46):
Yeah. But I'm aware of the people that are,
you know, and some people justneed to take a knee, depending
on what's going on in theirworld, aging parents, divorce,
whatever the case may be.Sometimes people just need to
take a knee for a bit. Andthat's okay because when you're
(28:10):
dealing with the events we dealwith, you pretty much have to be
present. And if your mind'ssomewhere else because of
something going on in your life,then you're not doing yourself
or anyone else on the truck afavor.
And I think that's pretty clearto them, which is good. I mean,
even if the days lost due tomental health injuries doesn't
change, but people are comingforward rather than suffering
(28:34):
with it, that's a victory.
Jessica Samuels (28:36):
Totally agree. Do you have any advice for
friends or loved ones or familymembers of first responder? You
mentioned earlier about tryingto get back to your normal as
soon as possible, or even ifyou're someone whose truck has
been browned you're going hometo family. In your time and how
(28:59):
you work with your family, sometips?
David McCarthy (29:04):
Just about how to get back to normal?
Jessica Samuels (29:06):
How to support you or a loved one who is a
first responder?
David McCarthy (29:12):
Yeah, well, funny you mentioned that we're
actually getting an eventorganized for the November 1 for
our significant others so thatthey get an introduction to the
fire department culture. Again,some of the new recruits have
past training or have been partof other departments. Others
(29:34):
haven't. So we're going toinvite their families, their
significant others to an eventwhere we talk about the types of
stressors they're going to gothrough, the possible side
effects of that. Then we'regoing to go through, like I did
briefly here, the resources wehave available as a team.
(29:55):
And then we're going to have theCanadian Mental Health
Association go through thatcomputer program that she's
developed and how easy it is forthem to seek help. Sometimes
they suffer too. You can see achange in your spouse or in your
(30:18):
partner or whatever it doesaffect you and kids don't really
understand. So we're goingthrough a whole bunch of
resources that are available,not only for adults, but for
children as well. Because themore stable the home is, the
better it is for us.
Jessica Samuels (30:35):
Right. And twenty five years on the job.
How are you doing? I wouldimagine that while you're still
on the job, it's still a work inprogress.
David McCarthy (30:46):
Yeah, it is. Yeah, always. And again, there's
some places where I drive bywhere I get taken back to calls
that were particularlyunsettling. But through talking
to them, like I said, thebiggest thing is for first
responders of any discipline tofind a counselor to talk to. And
(31:07):
the earlier the better.
I tell that to all the recruits.Go find one now because it might
take you two years and you maynot need it now, but you need to
develop the relationship.Because sooner or later you
will.
Jessica Samuels (31:20):
David, thank you so much for the chat, and
thank you so much for your workthat you do in the community and
making sure that we are allsafe.
David McCarthy (31:27):
Thank you very much for having me.
Jessica Samuels (31:29):
We will provide some additional resources based
conversation. You can find thoseon the A Way Forward podcast
page at cmhacolona.org. And ifyou have any questions about
this topic, an interview, or anyother one, can always email me
directly atawayforwardcmhacolona dot org.
In the meantime, please do takegood care. This episode is
(31:53):
supported by Beam Credit Union.
With deep roots in BC and acommitment to your financial
journey, Beam proudly backsmental health conversations that
help build stronger, healthiercommunities.
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