November 6, 2025 • 37 mins
In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, host Jessica Samuels sits down with Matteo Stewart to explore the unique mental health challenges faced by gay men. Matteo shares his lived experience navigating identity, community, and mental health—from coming out in the 1990s, to the ongoing effects of societal expectations, to finding belonging and resilience later in life.
Together, they unpack what it means to be “out to yourself,” the impact of code-switching, the intersection of trauma and identity, and how political and social climates continue to affect 2SLGBTQIA+ mental health today. Matteo’s honesty about his own journey—including his cancer diagnosis and how community has become his lifeline—offers a moving reminder of the healing power of connection and authenticity.
Key Themes
- Identity & Mental Health: Understanding the mental health impacts of being “out” versus “not out,” and the internal work of self-acceptance.
- Code-Switching & Survival: How changing behaviour to fit in affects emotional well-being, even for those long out of the closet.
- Community & Connection: Why safe spaces and supportive networks are critical for thriving, not just surviving.
- Trauma & Resilience: The lasting mental health effects of discrimination, loss, and societal stigma—and the ways gay men build strength and healing.
- Barriers to Health Care: The inequities gay men face in accessing medical and mental health supports, particularly outside major urban centres.
Resources Mentioned:
https://checkhimout.ca/
https://pflagcanada.ca/
https://gmsh.ca/
https://advocacy-canada.lgbt/
Takeaway:
Matteo reminds us that mental health and identity are deeply intertwined—and that thriving comes from being seen, heard, and supported for who we truly are. Building community, finding purpose, and showing up authentically are not only acts of courage, but acts of healing.
The A Way Forward Podcast: Conversations on Mental Health is proudly presented by Beem Credit Union.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Samuels (00:00):
Today's topic is men's mental health,
(00:02):
specifically gay men and theirmental health. My guest is
Matteo Stewart. He is a threetime international TEDx speaker,
a belonging practitioner, and asenior inclusive leadership
facilitator, just among a fewthings. There is so much to
unpack in this topic, and itstarts at the intersection of
(00:23):
mental health and identity. BeanCredit Union is proud to sponsor
today's episode.
With deep roots in BC and acommitment to your financial
journey, Beam believes wellness,mental and financial starts with
support you can count on.Matteo, I am so grateful for you
being here. Thank you so muchand taking part in this big
(00:45):
topic that we're talking abouttoday. You and I sent a few
emails back and forth aboutthis, and just to make sure that
we had the right focus. And andwe talked a lot about identity.
And you said something veryspecific about identity. And I'm
going to read it because I'mgoing to quote you. And that's
where I want to start. Inrelation to identity, you wrote
(01:08):
the different experiences thatgay men who are open with their
identity versus men who have sexwith men but do not openly
identify as gay. And thatsentence, was like, Yes.
So I need you to speak a bitmore about that.
Matteo Stewart (01:24):
For sure. Yeah. And thank you so much for this
opportunity even just to have aconversation, because I'll be
very honest. I can't speak fromany other lived experience. And
when you think about the queercommunity, the 2SLGBTQIA plus
community, I know that's amouthful, we're really not a
community, we're communities.
Right? And there's so manydifferent intersecting
(01:44):
identities.
Jessica Samuels (01:45):
Which is that mouthful of an acronym. But it's
also born in your own right.
Matteo Stewart (01:49):
But I identify as a gay male, and I'm getting a
bit older now. I've got somegray in my beard. That said, I
have been out since the earlynineties, meaning that I've been
out to myself, I've been out tomy friends and family, I've been
out in my career. And from myunderstanding, you know, when we
(02:09):
think about the communities oryou think about gay men,
especially around health, somany of individuals who might
have a different sexualorientation, whether they are
open and share that with othersor not, is irrelevant when it
comes to the end of the day thatwe're still human beings who
(02:30):
experience health challenges,and mental health is important.
And the experience that I mighthave as an openly gay 50 year
old here in the Okanagan, verydifferent than somebody who is
closeted.
And often those folks are notthe ones that get studied
academically, are not the onesthat get the traditional
(02:52):
support, and often get excludedfrom the support that they
probably do need. And that'swhere my heart breaks. And it
really wasn't until and I don'twant to but we have all this
plethora now of online apps,right, where people who are
looking for sex with men canfind that. But these are
(03:13):
individuals who will not posttheir picture, these are
individuals who will not be outto their wives or to their
girlfriends or to the community,and it breaks to hear that these
are individuals that, like allof us, you know, are suffering
from a variety of differentconditions, whether that's
(03:33):
mental or physical health, andyet they don't have the same
access. Where for me, I thinkprobably because of my, you
know, white male privilege ofbeing out, I can go to my doctor
and just be like, No, I'm a gayman.
And immediately then we can havea conversation about my health.
I've also been diagnosed withleukemia, as well as a tumor
(03:56):
that they found in my shoulder,but I can have a very open
conversation about my health,about my sexual health, with my
health care providers, with myhealth team. But what about and
this is what's really and it'sreally only within the past
couple months that this has cometo heart for me is what about
those individuals that can't beopen because they're not open to
(04:16):
themselves or others? How dothey access the same health
care?
Jessica Samuels (04:19):
And when you talk about health care, what's
unfolded and embedded in that ismental health care. Mental
health is health. Okay, so I'vebeen scribbling notes because we
basically covered the wholepodcast right there, which is
great and gives us lots to workoff. One of the first things I
want to talk about is the firstthing you said is out to
yourself. As a yeah, as astraight cisgender female, that
(04:45):
line out to yourself because andthat really talks about
identity, because certainly wetalk about community and out in
the public, a very importantpart, but out to yourself.
So what is that? What does thatmean? What did that mean for
you?
Matteo Stewart (05:00):
For me, well, it was different. Back in the
1990s, I came out in the 1990s,so things were different than
they maybe are today. That said,maybe things are changing,
right, with the politicallandscape changing as well. But
for me, that meant that I hadthe fear of I could have been
kicked out of the house. I hadthe fear of, if I left, where
would I go?
(05:20):
Who would support me? I didn'thave friends that were openly
gay when I was 17 or 18. Ididn't have that network of
support that I have now. So, forme, I have a network of support.
So, I'm saying I'm having a badday, I've got a husband, I've
got friends and family, I've gotfolks that can be there for me.
And that's where I think that,because I'm out to myself, I can
(05:44):
be truthful and honest about mylived experiences.
Jessica Samuels (05:48):
So is not being out in public the same as not
being out to yourself?
Matteo Stewart (05:52):
Well, it's interesting because I love that
intersection. And I wonder, andagain, I can't speak because I
have been out, but I know when Iwas closeted, the impact that
had on me and on my mentalhealth. And if it's okay, I'm
going share a story. This hit mejust today. I just got from the
gym, just before coming here,and this has been something I've
been going to the gym as part ofmy health journey with my cancer
(06:16):
treatment.
But at the gym, I've been nowaccepted by the gym bros. All
these straight identifying Idon't know, they haven't
disclosed but they're verystraight identifying, straight
acting, if you will. And what Ifound is the moment they started
bringing me into their littlegroup and having conversations,
I started lowering my voice. Istarted I was code switching.
(06:40):
And it wasn't something I wasthinking at the prefrontal
cortex, me thinking about I needto change who I am and adapt.
That was part of my resilience.That was part of my adaptive
strategies in order to survive.Even though you were already
I've been out since thenineties. And
Jessica Samuels (07:01):
for intents and purposes of this conversation in
this example, you were acceptedby these folks at the gym
already. You didn't start withcode switching. The code
switching came after acceptance.
Matteo Stewart (07:11):
Yeah. And so if I'm code switching, what about
others who, because of rhetoric,the political rhetoric out
there, I wonder what impactthat's having on them and on
their mental health?
Jessica Samuels (07:24):
Yeah. I mean, that's my next question. That
erosion, that you know, day inday out erosion of to yourself.
So in those quiet moments, whenyou're with friends or family,
or when you're doing somethingthat many people do work out or
be active in a number of waysand what and that's that
identity piece that we talkedabout. So you're not being true
(07:47):
to who you are, and that takes atoll on your mental health.
Matteo Stewart (07:50):
It does, yeah. But then so does, you know, me,
and I'll be looking at what'shappening to our neighbors in
the South, the erosion of rightsfor the LGBTQI plus community,
even rhetoric here in Kelownawith local politicians who will
advocate for or introduce billsto pull back the rights and
(08:12):
freedoms. And we have aneighboring province that is
removing rights or looking touse a notwithstanding clause and
the impact that has on folks.And it's interesting because
I've been spending some timewith, because I'm now 50, with a
group of 50 plus gay men. Wemeet every Saturday for coffee,
(08:34):
we have different events, wehave tea dances, and it's great.
But these are individuals thatthey came out before I was even
born, some of them, and to heartheir experiences of what it was
like back when to be gay wascriminalized. There wasn't the
same legal protections. Theylived through the AIDS crisis,
where they lost so many folks.They don't have that same family
(08:57):
experiences. So, yes, they'revery resilient, which is
awesome, but are they thriving?
It's interesting now when I lookat that. Now, when I look at how
they are adapting, many of them,some of them, you know, where
they've been with their partnersfor forty plus years, now their
partner passes away, and how dothey access care services? Or we
(09:17):
have one individual who's nowgone into a care home who had
been out since 1974, but now in2025 has to go back into the
closet in order to survive in anursing home.
Jessica Samuels (09:31):
Right. An individual may have thought that
they were out, they hadcommunity, they had their
support network, and that fallsapart for whatever reason. And
it's almost like starting over.What you're saying is a
fundamentally different era, nomatter how you look at it. I
mean, socioeconomic, politicalclimate notwithstanding, just
(09:52):
the fact that we're talkingnineties or seventies versus
2025, there is a hugediscrepancy in what society
Matteo Stewart (10:01):
is like. It's so true. And it's interesting
because what I'm alsodiscovering, and this is true
for myself, is that many gaymen, when we came out, that was
trauma. And we don't necessarilytalk about the intersection of
trauma and the gay community,but there's a lot. For many of
us, a lot of trauma.
And even though I might think,Oh, I'm fine. I've been out at
(10:22):
work. As soon as I hear aboutsome legislation being passed or
a bill being introduced, thatbrings back new trauma. And I
get re traumatized.
Jessica Samuels (10:34):
So how do you manage?
Matteo Stewart (10:35):
That's just it.
Jessica Samuels (10:36):
After all these years,
Matteo Stewart (10:37):
I'm still struggling with that on a
personal level. When I heard anantique slur at the gym, which I
thought, Oh, here I am being butthat's part of what people say,
locker room talk. That's stilltraumatizing. Where this really
came to head for me, and I'mgoing to share the story if
that's okay, a few years ago, Iwas up for election to join BC
(11:00):
Hockey's Board of Directors, andto me it was awesome. I played
hockey, my grandfather playedfor Detroit back in the 30s and
40s, and so for me, hockey hasbeen a big part of my family.
We grew up with hockey, and Ireally wanted I was part of the
twenty ten Winter Olympics inVancouver where hockey, I mean
that was one of the biggesthighlights for me, biggest
highlight of my career was to beable to say that I worked on the
(11:21):
Olympics at the hockey venue,you know, when we won gold for
the women in the men's. Thatsaid, when I was up for
election, I was really excitedabout, you know, and I'd worked
on several other boards over theyears. But when I went, and it
was down in Penticton at one ofthe convention centers, and I
walked into the conventioncenter, I thought I was fine,
(11:41):
and I had a bit of a panicattack. Literally, I had to take
myself out of the room, went fora walk along the lake, going,
Why am I at my age having thispanic attack now? And I realized
it was bringing up trauma fromback in the 80s, when I was gay
bashed, in the hockey, at thearena, in the locker room.
(12:06):
Now, if I'm impacted like that,and I'm supposed to be the
strong, well adjusted, whatabout others that aren't? What
are we doing to help supportthem? So it's not just about
resilience, but the ability forus as human beings. Because at
the end of the day, whether weidentify as gay or not, we're
still human beings. How do weset the conditions for us to be
(12:26):
able to thrive and not justsurvive?
Jessica Samuels (12:29):
And part of one of those conditions mentioned
earlier was that sense ofcommunity. And what's
interesting to me is in yourstorytelling there, and thank
you for sharing these stories.When I, I guess when I was
thinking about community forthis, I was thinking of
community of the community inthis particular instance would
(12:49):
be gay men. But it seems to melike you just talked about you
have a community at the gym ofstraight acting, straight
identifying individuals, menincluded. So is there a
distinction between those twosenses of community?
Matteo Stewart (13:04):
I think there is. To be honest, for me, one of
the things I love is, now thatI've joined this 50 plus gay
men's meetup group, is we canjust be ourselves. And it's not
that we are gay. It just sohappens that we're surrounded by
other gay men of similar age,similar lived experiences, but
(13:24):
we can just be ourselves. And wedon't have to be labeled the
label is there when we have atea dance, or we're just meeting
up for coffee, or we're goingout for a beer.
But we're just us. It's just us,and it's just a group of people
with, again, some similarinterests, some similar
backgrounds, and we can talkabout the Blue Jays, or we can
(13:48):
talk about hockey, or we cantalk about taking care of our
garden and getting itwinterized. Identity isn't the
driving force. Identity is whywe're there, but it's not the
driving force of theconversation. And so we're
building this community.
And so, some of us go to the gymand we work out, and we share
(14:08):
workout tips. Others don't evengo anywhere near the gym, and
that's okay. But we're stilltogether. And for me, it's a
very different I can be myself,and my guard is now down. I
don't have to think about codeswitching.
I don't have to worry aboutanything. And that, to me, is
probably the ultimate level ofpsychological safety
Jessica Samuels (14:29):
Is that thriving?
Matteo Stewart (14:31):
For me, that would be thriving, versus I have
to be in survival mode, orwhether I'm cognizant that I'm
in survival mode or not, my bodyreacts differently. So when we
talk about mental and physical,they're interchangeable. They're
not two separate things. They'reinterchangeable. I know when I
am thriving, my cortisol levelsare lower.
(14:53):
And it's interesting, because ofmy cancer, I am going constantly
for blood work. And what'sinteresting is when I can see
when I am driving, or now thatI'm part of this community, my
inflammation markers are lower,I'm seeing my blood work is
coming back much more positive.When I have stress at work, when
I have stress in the community,when I have stress outside, and
(15:15):
I don't feel like I have thatsense of community, I see my
blood work change. And it'sinteresting to see that. So now
I wonder, not everyone hasaccess to get their blood work
done every two weeks.
So how do we support those folksthat don't even know how to ask?
(15:36):
For me, I guess I'm problemaware and solution aware, but so
many folks in the gay community,especially for gay men, aren't
necessarily problem aware, andnot necessarily even solution
aware. How do we help them?
Jessica Samuels (15:50):
Right. Well, and that's part of why we do
this podcast, is sharing storieslike yourself and talking about
things that work for youanecdotally on a day to day
basis. We're going go over someresources and things that have
worked. But just also trying tobuild that sense of community
that gay male, older gay male,50 plus gay male community.
(16:12):
That's important.
You said we can be ourselves.And I had a question here about
societal expectations of men andsocietal expectations of
straight and gay men and howthat plays into it. Yeah. I
(16:33):
mean, you talked about not tokeep bringing it up. You talked
about this code switching.
That's also society. I see thatas a societal expectation of
what a man, full stop, like justman. Man's voice is deeper and
his sounds a little like thisbecause this is what you're
supposed to do.
Matteo Stewart (16:49):
How does
Jessica Samuels (16:50):
that impact your discussions around mental
health?
Matteo Stewart (16:52):
Oh, huge. Because again, I'm not allowed
to cry. I'm not allowed to showemotion. When I say not allowed,
that's in my head. Why is thatin my head?
Because of, again, societalexpectations. When I think about
when I'm having a hard day atwork, who do I get to vent to?
Am I allowed to vent? Am Iallowed to even talk about it?
(17:13):
And that's in my head, butthat's where I go, where my
expectation is, is that I can'tshare that struggle.
And what I hear, as now part ofthis group of older gay men
who've come together, we'veshared that we have the same
concerns of body image, the sameconcerns now of, Do I fit in? My
(17:36):
body is no longer the same as itwas back in 1997, when I was at
clubs and I was all that.
Jessica Samuels (17:43):
Aren't we all in that position?
Matteo Stewart (17:46):
Now, also, where do I find a sense of community?
Where do I go to feel like I canjust be myself or I can be who I
am? The other thing too, whichis really interesting, is this
notion of when you have apartner I've been together,
gosh, don't want to say how manyyears we've been together. We've
(18:06):
married for fourteen years,probably closer to twenty But if
I were to, let's say, cancerwere to take me, my worry and
this is something that mypartner shared is, Then what?
Then what do we do?
It's not like we go back on themarket and we can just easily
pick up. It becomes harder to beable to find that sense of
(18:29):
community and to be able to talkabout things like loss. And loss
not just in terms of a death,but loss in terms of one's
identity. For me, a big part ofmy identity is the work that I
do. But now, as I enter to theage of retirement, it's like,
what is my identity?
What becomes my purpose? I thinkthat's sort of an intersection,
too, when you're talking aboutmental health, is what purpose
(18:52):
do we have? Because we know whenwe look at the data, when people
have a purpose, they thrive.Their health improves, both
mental and physical. So how dowe find that purpose beyond just
whatever our identity is?
And for me, I look at, well,yeah, when my career was over,
(19:13):
what's my identity? Am I alwaysjust a gay man? Or am I a gay
man who also plays hockey? A gayman who gardens, also or what
else I do. So there's thatcomponent as well.
And then for many of us, for me,I'm lucky I have a strong
family, but so many gay men,especially gay men who are older
(19:35):
than me, are estranged fromtheir family, or their families
passed on. So who do they haveto go to when they're having a
bad day? When they need to getpicked up from the hospital
because they've just went, youknow, like, the other day, they
went through radiationtreatment. Who's picking me up
to drive me home after that?Right?
I have that, you know, communitythat folks that can come
(19:57):
together, but so many peopledon't.
Jessica Samuels (19:59):
Are there expectations within, in your
experience, within the gay malecommunity, are the expectations
about talking about mentalhealth different
Matteo Stewart (20:11):
Oh, a 100%. Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (20:13):
In the straight male community?
Matteo Stewart (20:14):
Yeah. And I can't speak for
Jessica Samuels (20:15):
all gay men. Of course not.
Matteo Stewart (20:17):
But for many of us, it's it's it's either you're
out and you're strong or you'reone of those weak closeted
people. And it's an interestingdivide that I don't think it's
talked a lot about.
Jessica Samuels (20:29):
You're weak because you're not out.
Matteo Stewart (20:30):
You're not out. Yeah. You're not out. You're
closeted. Those folks tend toget pushed aside in the
community.
We don't offer the same empathyor support.
Jessica Samuels (20:43):
But it's interesting, the other part of
that is you said out and strong,that implies We're not.
Matteo Stewart (20:49):
That's just it. We're not. I'll be the first to
admit. Seriously, when theyfound a tumour, immediately
wanted to cry. But in front ofmy partner, in front of my
friends, I put on the strongface.
I didn't cry until I was alonein the bathroom. And that
expectation to not be able toaddress one's feelings or to
(21:13):
suppress. Think another thing,too, that's maybe a skill that
gay and lesbian people have, iswe've done, for many of
Jessica Samuels (21:23):
us, for
Matteo Stewart (21:24):
so many years, have been able to either repress
our feelings or compartmentalizeit so that we can survive. And
we're in survival mode all thetime.
Jessica Samuels (21:36):
But we also know you were talking about
what's good for our bodies. Weknow that is also
Matteo Stewart (21:40):
Because not now you're operating where your
amygdala is being triggered, oryou're storing unhealthy
emotions in the body, areimpacting the rest of the whole
health system.
Jessica Samuels (21:52):
Did you have I mean, you talked about specific
incidences, and certainly beingdiagnosed with leukemia is huge
throughout your life, instancesof struggling to manage your
mental health. How did youbalance this juggling act?
Matteo Stewart (22:07):
Here's the thing, and was going to drop it
enough, is the only way thatI've really gotten over it is to
be like, I'm going to struggleand still show up. And for me,
that's been my strategy. Nowthat works for me. That doesn't
work for others. And so somepeople go, Well, aren't you
nervous?
(22:28):
And I'm like, Yeah, I'm nervous.I'm scared. I'm sweating like
buckets, but I'm going to do itanyway. And that's not always a
healthy approach, because I'mnot addressing, but it's not
necessarily the most effectiveway of doing it. But that's what
has worked for me.
Because that's what I had to doas an 18 year old who's coming
to terms with (22:48):
I wasn't interested in my girlfriend I
was interested in her brother.And now what does that mean? And
how do I put that feeling asidein the hurt that came from the
homophobia, from the commentsthat would be left on my
yearbook, or the comments thatwould be made in the hallway at
(23:09):
high school, or the commentsthat would be made by the
principal or the teachers thatwere anti gay. And I just
survived. I went into survivalmode to be able to push that
aside.
Jessica Samuels (23:21):
Right. So if someone who's listening right
now in survival mode and yousaid, I'm going to struggle, but
I'm still going to show up, Ifeel like what I'm hearing is
they've to find their way aroundwhat that
Matteo Stewart (23:32):
looks like. It could be. But is that going to
work for everybody? No. And I'llbe honest, at 50 years old, that
has not been the healthiest.
Because guess what that meant?That meant that I, on a Friday
night, would be smashing a pizzaand a large bag of ketchup or
salt and vinegar chips, and Iwent to food as my solace. And I
(23:53):
was very large. At one point, Iwas over three hundred pounds.
And that wasn't a healthy way todeal with it, but that's what I
did.
Jessica Samuels (24:02):
And sometimes when we talk about managing
mental health, it's the grief orthe struggle being in the
moment, noting, acknowledging,but not sitting in that for too
long. Yeah. And so that soundslike, you know, kind of
oscillate and float in and outof Yeah. We talked about you
(24:27):
mentioned accessing health. Sowhether it's mental health, but
in this instance, let's talkabout physical health care
services across the community asa gay man.
This is another aspect thatdidn't occur to me because
there's also gay men's sexualhealth. There is a thing and
there's actually a resource thatwe'll mention later on that for
(24:48):
that. But then just alsoaccessing health services and
the act of sharing with themedical practitioner that you're
gay.
Matteo Stewart (24:57):
Yeah. Well, it's such a critical thing, right?
And so if I just take a stepback, there's two parts I So
want to ten years ago, when Iwas first diagnosed, it took
months for the team to figureout what was wrong. Leukemia can
be sometimes difficult todiagnose, but because I shared
(25:17):
that I was gay, the initialdoctors, because then I didn't
have a family doctor, I onlyhad, you know, I'd go to the
drop in clinic and be like, Hey,I have night sweats, I am not
feeling good, and I mentionedthat I was gay, so what did they
do? They did HIV tests, they didhepatitis tests, and they kept
saying, But you don't have HIV,you don't have hepatitis, you
don't have any sectortransmitted disease.
(25:40):
Because they were limiting thetesting that they did, because
the assumption was, because Iwas a gay man, it must have been
HIV, or it must have been asexually transmitted disease.
Not that it could be a diseasethat affects any human being.
And it wasn't until mind you, Iwas an advocate for myself, and
I was strongly advocating that,no, something's not right here,
(26:05):
that we finally did someadditional tests. But that was
months. It was almost like sevenmonths before I got And that, to
me, was if I hadn't been thatadvocate, how long would it been
before I started gettingtreatment?
Jessica Samuels (26:17):
Well, advocating. Hey, we've talked
about on this podcast a lot, youknow, advocating for your health
and mental health. I mean, it'sa tough system out there right
now. You know, doctors andnurses and everyone in the
medical system, they're workinghard. But our system needs an
overhaul.
So oftentimes as an individualadvocating for your health, it's
(26:40):
kind of how we have to rollthese days. Has been my
experience and experience ofmany people that I talk to. I
again, I didn't think about thatabout the opposite. So I was
thinking about not being out tothe doctor. You're talking about
being out and making
Matteo Stewart (26:58):
go the opposite direction. But here's the thing,
too, that often doesn't getdiscussed, especially and again,
this is the intersection ofmental health and physical
health because, again, they'reso interconnected is, for many
people in the gay community,there are resources like
medications like PrEP that couldreally help help prevent, you
know, not just get exposed toHIV or AIDS, but to also be, you
(27:24):
know, some preventativemedicine. However, here in the
Okanagan, if you're inVancouver, you're in Toronto,
you're in Calgary, access tomedication like PrEP is very
easy to get. Know, you go have aconversation with your doctor,
you can get prescribed on it,and you can go. Here in the
Okanagan?
Not every doctor will do that.And then if you want, guess
(27:45):
where it comes from? It has tobe shipped from Vancouver. And
not every pharmacy will fillthat prescription here because
of folks' views on, what theywould say, enabling the gay
lifestyle, if you will. And soit becomes much harder.
So, if you have a physician thatyou're not out to, or you have a
(28:07):
physician that you do come outto, it's so hard to get a family
doctor, how do you then get onPrEP? Or how do you get access
to this? Which can be, what thedata tells us, in terms of very
beneficial for of course,there's all things like safe sex
practices, are still veryimportant, still the fact that
(28:29):
we have a potential veryeffective the data is very clear
potentially very effectivesolution, or at least part of a
solution. And yet, gay men can'taccess that equitably here in
the Okanagan as compared toother communities in Canada.
Jessica Samuels (28:47):
So, so that I am clear, You're talking about a
widely medically acceptedmedication. Correct. It's not,
you know, it's legal, it'sproven and widely practiced in
many medical facilities in termsof writing these prescriptions.
(29:11):
And you're saying that not onlyis it not accessible here in
Kelowna, we have to you wouldhave to get it from Vancouver.
But some doctors and somepharmacies just will refuse.
Matteo Stewart (29:23):
So in fact, one of the things, one of the groups
that I was going to mention,like Kim and Advocacy Canada,
will tell you, here's thedoctors that we recommend,
here's the pharmacies that we'llfill, and that list, when you
look at the overall list ofpharmacies in the Okanagan, it's
quite small. Mind you, there arenow online options which you can
(29:43):
go to, but then I always wonder,you know, if you're going to an
online option, you're not havingthe same conversation with an
online as you would with yourprimary care physician. And so
that's where now I worry about,you know, that intersection of,
Does your primary care physicianor your care team fully know and
understand your entire livedexperience and your entire lived
(30:06):
history? Because then, now, whenyou start talking about, Well,
I'm having mental health issues,or I might be on other
medication, so many folks,because it's not, you know, if I
was to be admitted to InteriorHealth, they would have access
to the medications that havebeen prescribed to me. But if I
had to get PrEP outside, guesswhat?
That's not going to show up whenI go to emerge, and I'm
(30:29):
unresponsive. And if I can'ttell them that I'm on PrEP, they
wouldn't have access to thatbecause that's not being
administered through thatsystem. And so, we run that risk
as well of the medical team,your care team, not having an
understanding that gay man'sfull care that they're
(30:51):
receiving.
Jessica Samuels (30:51):
Right. Yeah. That holistic care. Everything
that an individual needs thatperhaps individuals like myself
wouldn't wouldn't think aboutthat.
Matteo Stewart (31:00):
Yeah,
Jessica Samuels (31:00):
right. I wouldn't think about it wouldn't
occur to me that a pharmacywould not. Are they allowed to
do that? Not fill aprescription. Yeah, yeah.
Gosh, we got so many things totalk about. So much to talk
about. I want to how like let'sjust briefly before we wrap up,
(31:20):
you you have a cancer diagnosis.And so really talking about that
mind body connection. How areyou managing to keep yourself
healthy physically and mentally?
Matteo Stewart (31:31):
So what I'm finding is I'm lifting things.
So what I love, folks atInterior Health, great folks
that are there, my care team'samazing. But when I leave, I'm
on my own. I drive myself homeand now how I'm managing is I'm
really hyper focused on what Ieat. So now, cutting down sugar.
(31:53):
So I'm focused, I've got thatlaser focus, if you will. But
now I'm also moving things. Soat the gym, my favorite thing is
the sled push and pull. So mytrainer's got me, you know, just
lifting heavy things. And whatI'm finding is when I do that,
I've got the headset on, I'm inthe zone, As the blood's going,
as I'm doing, to me, I'm findinggreat solace in that.
(32:15):
But then the best solace hasbeen, after I'm done, the
conversations that I have. Theguys there at the gym, they go,
Yo, Jim Santa, you know, I'veAnd got this the lady who works
behind the smoothie bar, she'salways like, Are you going to
get your usual today? Andthere's just this camaraderie.
And then tomorrow morning, sotomorrow, well, wherever the
(32:39):
people are watching, buttomorrow for me will be
Saturday. At 09:00, I'm going gomeet a group sometimes we have
40, older gay men, and I'musually the youngest one there,
so I feel fabulous.
But what I love is we just haveconversations, and it's nothing
to do with being gay. It's justus just having a coffee
together, coming together, andwatching folks get their they
(33:00):
light up when they see you. AndI light up when I see them. To
me, that is something that Ilook forward to. And then we
have a gay curling league, orit's a mixed league of gender
non specific individuals whoidentify as part of the
community or supporters andallies.
And I don't even curl, to behonest. I have to be careful. So
(33:24):
I sit upstairs with a couple ofthe other folks, and we cheer
everybody on. Then everyone,once they're done, comes
upstairs and we just have thissense of community. And again,
we're not talking about beinggay, we're just talking about
But it's a safe space for us.
I don't have to worry aboutsomebody making some homophobic
comment or a racist comment. Wecan just sit there, be
(33:47):
ourselves, and not have to codeswitch or mask who we are. We're
genuinely excited to see eachother. To me, there's no better
feeling than that. It's the samewhen every time I go see my
parents, see my mom, know, thatbig hug.
That kind of community, whereeverybody gives you a hug,
(34:08):
everyone's really excited, andwhen they ask you, How are you
doing? They ask, How are youdoing? Right? And that to me,
having that And so if we hadthat more available, or if we
had folks where they had a senseof community and a sense of
purpose, something to lookforward to, Would that help
(34:28):
impact folks' mental health?It's not going be the cure all,
but could that be?
I'd rather do that than takeanother I'm done with taking
medication now I'd rather focuson healthy eating, healthy
living, and stuff that makes apositive impact.
Jessica Samuels (34:46):
Powerful words. Thank you. And so folks who are
listening desperately want that,it's not that they don't believe
it's not going to help them.They just don't know how to get
started. We talked aboutresources.
You mentioned check him out orhim. Yes, check him out. Ca.
PFLAGCanada, GMSH, which is gaymen's sexual health. Ca.
(35:12):
What are some other ways thatcan support holistically and
overall gay men that work foryou?
Matteo Stewart (35:19):
One of the things I would recommend is get
off the apps. Or you can be onthem, but have a group of folks.
Have some folks to meet. So foranyone who might be interested,
Advocacy Canada, which does alot of great work to support the
2SLGBTQI plus communities, hassome great events for the trans
and supporting the transcommunity. We also have some
(35:39):
really great meetups for gaymen.
We have a coffee meetup. There'sa bunch of tea dances that
happen once a month. I love thetea dance because as I'm getting
older, I don't want to go to theclub anymore. The tea dance is
great because it's like, in theafternoon, I'm home by six. And
it's great.
And it's over. It's greatbecause then I don't have to
worry about going to the club.And then we do, like in the
(36:01):
summer, have barbecues where wejust come together, and it's
just a really great sense ofcommunity. And our unifying
factor is, yes, we mightidentify as part of the gay
community, but that's only onepart of our many intersecting
identities. And we can just beour true authentic selves, as we
whatever we're going to talkabout.
Whether we're talking aboutfootball, we're talking about
(36:21):
hockey, or we're talking aboutgardening, it doesn't matter. We
can just be ourselves and havethat shine in our eyes. And
that, to me, is probably themost powerful thing that's
really gotten me through thedarkest days.
Jessica Samuels (36:36):
Matteo, thank you so much.
Matteo Stewart (36:38):
Oh, thank you.
Jessica Samuels (36:39):
Big discussion. We went over a few resources
there. At the end, we'll havethe links to those on the A Way
Forward podcast page atcmhaclona.org. If you have any
questions or comments about thistopic or any other topic, please
feel free to email me atawayforwardcmhakolana dot org.
Until then, please do take goodcare.
(37:01):
This episode is supported byBeam Credit Union. With deep
roots in BC and a commitment toyour financial journey, Bean
proudly backs mental healthconversations that help build
stronger, healthier communities.
Today's topic is men's mental health,
(00:02):
specifically gay men and theirmental health. My guest is
Matteo Stewart. He is a threetime international TEDx speaker,
a belonging practitioner, and asenior inclusive leadership
facilitator, just among a fewthings. There is so much to
unpack in this topic, and itstarts at the intersection of
(00:23):
mental health and identity. BeanCredit Union is proud to sponsor
today's episode.
With deep roots in BC and acommitment to your financial
journey, Beam believes wellness,mental and financial starts with
support you can count on.Matteo, I am so grateful for you
being here. Thank you so muchand taking part in this big
(00:45):
topic that we're talking abouttoday. You and I sent a few
emails back and forth aboutthis, and just to make sure that
we had the right focus. And andwe talked a lot about identity.
And you said something veryspecific about identity. And I'm
going to read it because I'mgoing to quote you. And that's
where I want to start. Inrelation to identity, you wrote
(01:08):
the different experiences thatgay men who are open with their
identity versus men who have sexwith men but do not openly
identify as gay. And thatsentence, was like, Yes.
So I need you to speak a bitmore about that.
Matteo Stewart (01:24):
For sure. Yeah. And thank you so much for this
opportunity even just to have aconversation, because I'll be
very honest. I can't speak fromany other lived experience. And
when you think about the queercommunity, the 2SLGBTQIA plus
community, I know that's amouthful, we're really not a
community, we're communities.
Right? And there's so manydifferent intersecting
(01:44):
identities.
Jessica Samuels (01:45):
Which is that mouthful of an acronym. But it's
also born in your own right.
Matteo Stewart (01:49):
But I identify as a gay male, and I'm getting a
bit older now. I've got somegray in my beard. That said, I
have been out since the earlynineties, meaning that I've been
out to myself, I've been out tomy friends and family, I've been
out in my career. And from myunderstanding, you know, when we
(02:09):
think about the communities oryou think about gay men,
especially around health, somany of individuals who might
have a different sexualorientation, whether they are
open and share that with othersor not, is irrelevant when it
comes to the end of the day thatwe're still human beings who
(02:30):
experience health challenges,and mental health is important.
And the experience that I mighthave as an openly gay 50 year
old here in the Okanagan, verydifferent than somebody who is
closeted.
And often those folks are notthe ones that get studied
academically, are not the onesthat get the traditional
(02:52):
support, and often get excludedfrom the support that they
probably do need. And that'swhere my heart breaks. And it
really wasn't until and I don'twant to but we have all this
plethora now of online apps,right, where people who are
looking for sex with men canfind that. But these are
(03:13):
individuals who will not posttheir picture, these are
individuals who will not be outto their wives or to their
girlfriends or to the community,and it breaks to hear that these
are individuals that, like allof us, you know, are suffering
from a variety of differentconditions, whether that's
(03:33):
mental or physical health, andyet they don't have the same
access. Where for me, I thinkprobably because of my, you
know, white male privilege ofbeing out, I can go to my doctor
and just be like, No, I'm a gayman.
And immediately then we can havea conversation about my health.
I've also been diagnosed withleukemia, as well as a tumor
(03:56):
that they found in my shoulder,but I can have a very open
conversation about my health,about my sexual health, with my
health care providers, with myhealth team. But what about and
this is what's really and it'sreally only within the past
couple months that this has cometo heart for me is what about
those individuals that can't beopen because they're not open to
(04:16):
themselves or others? How dothey access the same health
care?
Jessica Samuels (04:19):
And when you talk about health care, what's
unfolded and embedded in that ismental health care. Mental
health is health. Okay, so I'vebeen scribbling notes because we
basically covered the wholepodcast right there, which is
great and gives us lots to workoff. One of the first things I
want to talk about is the firstthing you said is out to
yourself. As a yeah, as astraight cisgender female, that
(04:45):
line out to yourself because andthat really talks about
identity, because certainly wetalk about community and out in
the public, a very importantpart, but out to yourself.
So what is that? What does thatmean? What did that mean for
you?
Matteo Stewart (05:00):
For me, well, it was different. Back in the
1990s, I came out in the 1990s,so things were different than
they maybe are today. That said,maybe things are changing,
right, with the politicallandscape changing as well. But
for me, that meant that I hadthe fear of I could have been
kicked out of the house. I hadthe fear of, if I left, where
would I go?
(05:20):
Who would support me? I didn'thave friends that were openly
gay when I was 17 or 18. Ididn't have that network of
support that I have now. So, forme, I have a network of support.
So, I'm saying I'm having a badday, I've got a husband, I've
got friends and family, I've gotfolks that can be there for me.
And that's where I think that,because I'm out to myself, I can
(05:44):
be truthful and honest about mylived experiences.
Jessica Samuels (05:48):
So is not being out in public the same as not
being out to yourself?
Matteo Stewart (05:52):
Well, it's interesting because I love that
intersection. And I wonder, andagain, I can't speak because I
have been out, but I know when Iwas closeted, the impact that
had on me and on my mentalhealth. And if it's okay, I'm
going share a story. This hit mejust today. I just got from the
gym, just before coming here,and this has been something I've
been going to the gym as part ofmy health journey with my cancer
(06:16):
treatment.
But at the gym, I've been nowaccepted by the gym bros. All
these straight identifying Idon't know, they haven't
disclosed but they're verystraight identifying, straight
acting, if you will. And what Ifound is the moment they started
bringing me into their littlegroup and having conversations,
I started lowering my voice. Istarted I was code switching.
(06:40):
And it wasn't something I wasthinking at the prefrontal
cortex, me thinking about I needto change who I am and adapt.
That was part of my resilience.That was part of my adaptive
strategies in order to survive.Even though you were already
I've been out since thenineties. And
Jessica Samuels (07:01):
for intents and purposes of this conversation in
this example, you were acceptedby these folks at the gym
already. You didn't start withcode switching. The code
switching came after acceptance.
Matteo Stewart (07:11):
Yeah. And so if I'm code switching, what about
others who, because of rhetoric,the political rhetoric out
there, I wonder what impactthat's having on them and on
their mental health?
Jessica Samuels (07:24):
Yeah. I mean, that's my next question. That
erosion, that you know, day inday out erosion of to yourself.
So in those quiet moments, whenyou're with friends or family,
or when you're doing somethingthat many people do work out or
be active in a number of waysand what and that's that
identity piece that we talkedabout. So you're not being true
(07:47):
to who you are, and that takes atoll on your mental health.
Matteo Stewart (07:50):
It does, yeah. But then so does, you know, me,
and I'll be looking at what'shappening to our neighbors in
the South, the erosion of rightsfor the LGBTQI plus community,
even rhetoric here in Kelownawith local politicians who will
advocate for or introduce billsto pull back the rights and
(08:12):
freedoms. And we have aneighboring province that is
removing rights or looking touse a notwithstanding clause and
the impact that has on folks.And it's interesting because
I've been spending some timewith, because I'm now 50, with a
group of 50 plus gay men. Wemeet every Saturday for coffee,
(08:34):
we have different events, wehave tea dances, and it's great.
But these are individuals thatthey came out before I was even
born, some of them, and to heartheir experiences of what it was
like back when to be gay wascriminalized. There wasn't the
same legal protections. Theylived through the AIDS crisis,
where they lost so many folks.They don't have that same family
(08:57):
experiences. So, yes, they'revery resilient, which is
awesome, but are they thriving?
It's interesting now when I lookat that. Now, when I look at how
they are adapting, many of them,some of them, you know, where
they've been with their partnersfor forty plus years, now their
partner passes away, and how dothey access care services? Or we
(09:17):
have one individual who's nowgone into a care home who had
been out since 1974, but now in2025 has to go back into the
closet in order to survive in anursing home.
Jessica Samuels (09:31):
Right. An individual may have thought that
they were out, they hadcommunity, they had their
support network, and that fallsapart for whatever reason. And
it's almost like starting over.What you're saying is a
fundamentally different era, nomatter how you look at it. I
mean, socioeconomic, politicalclimate notwithstanding, just
(09:52):
the fact that we're talkingnineties or seventies versus
2025, there is a hugediscrepancy in what society
Matteo Stewart (10:01):
is like. It's so true. And it's interesting
because what I'm alsodiscovering, and this is true
for myself, is that many gaymen, when we came out, that was
trauma. And we don't necessarilytalk about the intersection of
trauma and the gay community,but there's a lot. For many of
us, a lot of trauma.
And even though I might think,Oh, I'm fine. I've been out at
(10:22):
work. As soon as I hear aboutsome legislation being passed or
a bill being introduced, thatbrings back new trauma. And I
get re traumatized.
Jessica Samuels (10:34):
So how do you manage?
Matteo Stewart (10:35):
That's just it.
Jessica Samuels (10:36):
After all these years,
Matteo Stewart (10:37):
I'm still struggling with that on a
personal level. When I heard anantique slur at the gym, which I
thought, Oh, here I am being butthat's part of what people say,
locker room talk. That's stilltraumatizing. Where this really
came to head for me, and I'mgoing to share the story if
that's okay, a few years ago, Iwas up for election to join BC
(11:00):
Hockey's Board of Directors, andto me it was awesome. I played
hockey, my grandfather playedfor Detroit back in the 30s and
40s, and so for me, hockey hasbeen a big part of my family.
We grew up with hockey, and Ireally wanted I was part of the
twenty ten Winter Olympics inVancouver where hockey, I mean
that was one of the biggesthighlights for me, biggest
highlight of my career was to beable to say that I worked on the
(11:21):
Olympics at the hockey venue,you know, when we won gold for
the women in the men's. Thatsaid, when I was up for
election, I was really excitedabout, you know, and I'd worked
on several other boards over theyears. But when I went, and it
was down in Penticton at one ofthe convention centers, and I
walked into the conventioncenter, I thought I was fine,
(11:41):
and I had a bit of a panicattack. Literally, I had to take
myself out of the room, went fora walk along the lake, going,
Why am I at my age having thispanic attack now? And I realized
it was bringing up trauma fromback in the 80s, when I was gay
bashed, in the hockey, at thearena, in the locker room.
(12:06):
Now, if I'm impacted like that,and I'm supposed to be the
strong, well adjusted, whatabout others that aren't? What
are we doing to help supportthem? So it's not just about
resilience, but the ability forus as human beings. Because at
the end of the day, whether weidentify as gay or not, we're
still human beings. How do weset the conditions for us to be
(12:26):
able to thrive and not justsurvive?
Jessica Samuels (12:29):
And part of one of those conditions mentioned
earlier was that sense ofcommunity. And what's
interesting to me is in yourstorytelling there, and thank
you for sharing these stories.When I, I guess when I was
thinking about community forthis, I was thinking of
community of the community inthis particular instance would
(12:49):
be gay men. But it seems to melike you just talked about you
have a community at the gym ofstraight acting, straight
identifying individuals, menincluded. So is there a
distinction between those twosenses of community?
Matteo Stewart (13:04):
I think there is. To be honest, for me, one of
the things I love is, now thatI've joined this 50 plus gay
men's meetup group, is we canjust be ourselves. And it's not
that we are gay. It just sohappens that we're surrounded by
other gay men of similar age,similar lived experiences, but
(13:24):
we can just be ourselves. And wedon't have to be labeled the
label is there when we have atea dance, or we're just meeting
up for coffee, or we're goingout for a beer.
But we're just us. It's just us,and it's just a group of people
with, again, some similarinterests, some similar
backgrounds, and we can talkabout the Blue Jays, or we can
(13:48):
talk about hockey, or we cantalk about taking care of our
garden and getting itwinterized. Identity isn't the
driving force. Identity is whywe're there, but it's not the
driving force of theconversation. And so we're
building this community.
And so, some of us go to the gymand we work out, and we share
(14:08):
workout tips. Others don't evengo anywhere near the gym, and
that's okay. But we're stilltogether. And for me, it's a
very different I can be myself,and my guard is now down. I
don't have to think about codeswitching.
I don't have to worry aboutanything. And that, to me, is
probably the ultimate level ofpsychological safety
Jessica Samuels (14:29):
Is that thriving?
Matteo Stewart (14:31):
For me, that would be thriving, versus I have
to be in survival mode, orwhether I'm cognizant that I'm
in survival mode or not, my bodyreacts differently. So when we
talk about mental and physical,they're interchangeable. They're
not two separate things. They'reinterchangeable. I know when I
am thriving, my cortisol levelsare lower.
(14:53):
And it's interesting, because ofmy cancer, I am going constantly
for blood work. And what'sinteresting is when I can see
when I am driving, or now thatI'm part of this community, my
inflammation markers are lower,I'm seeing my blood work is
coming back much more positive.When I have stress at work, when
I have stress in the community,when I have stress outside, and
(15:15):
I don't feel like I have thatsense of community, I see my
blood work change. And it'sinteresting to see that. So now
I wonder, not everyone hasaccess to get their blood work
done every two weeks.
So how do we support those folksthat don't even know how to ask?
(15:36):
For me, I guess I'm problemaware and solution aware, but so
many folks in the gay community,especially for gay men, aren't
necessarily problem aware, andnot necessarily even solution
aware. How do we help them?
Jessica Samuels (15:50):
Right. Well, and that's part of why we do
this podcast, is sharing storieslike yourself and talking about
things that work for youanecdotally on a day to day
basis. We're going go over someresources and things that have
worked. But just also trying tobuild that sense of community
that gay male, older gay male,50 plus gay male community.
(16:12):
That's important.
You said we can be ourselves.And I had a question here about
societal expectations of men andsocietal expectations of
straight and gay men and howthat plays into it. Yeah. I
(16:33):
mean, you talked about not tokeep bringing it up. You talked
about this code switching.
That's also society. I see thatas a societal expectation of
what a man, full stop, like justman. Man's voice is deeper and
his sounds a little like thisbecause this is what you're
supposed to do.
Matteo Stewart (16:49):
How does
Jessica Samuels (16:50):
that impact your discussions around mental
health?
Matteo Stewart (16:52):
Oh, huge. Because again, I'm not allowed
to cry. I'm not allowed to showemotion. When I say not allowed,
that's in my head. Why is thatin my head?
Because of, again, societalexpectations. When I think about
when I'm having a hard day atwork, who do I get to vent to?
Am I allowed to vent? Am Iallowed to even talk about it?
(17:13):
And that's in my head, butthat's where I go, where my
expectation is, is that I can'tshare that struggle.
And what I hear, as now part ofthis group of older gay men
who've come together, we'veshared that we have the same
concerns of body image, the sameconcerns now of, Do I fit in? My
(17:36):
body is no longer the same as itwas back in 1997, when I was at
clubs and I was all that.
Jessica Samuels (17:43):
Aren't we all in that position?
Matteo Stewart (17:46):
Now, also, where do I find a sense of community?
Where do I go to feel like I canjust be myself or I can be who I
am? The other thing too, whichis really interesting, is this
notion of when you have apartner I've been together,
gosh, don't want to say how manyyears we've been together. We've
(18:06):
married for fourteen years,probably closer to twenty But if
I were to, let's say, cancerwere to take me, my worry and
this is something that mypartner shared is, Then what?
Then what do we do?
It's not like we go back on themarket and we can just easily
pick up. It becomes harder to beable to find that sense of
(18:29):
community and to be able to talkabout things like loss. And loss
not just in terms of a death,but loss in terms of one's
identity. For me, a big part ofmy identity is the work that I
do. But now, as I enter to theage of retirement, it's like,
what is my identity?
What becomes my purpose? I thinkthat's sort of an intersection,
too, when you're talking aboutmental health, is what purpose
(18:52):
do we have? Because we know whenwe look at the data, when people
have a purpose, they thrive.Their health improves, both
mental and physical. So how dowe find that purpose beyond just
whatever our identity is?
And for me, I look at, well,yeah, when my career was over,
(19:13):
what's my identity? Am I alwaysjust a gay man? Or am I a gay
man who also plays hockey? A gayman who gardens, also or what
else I do. So there's thatcomponent as well.
And then for many of us, for me,I'm lucky I have a strong
family, but so many gay men,especially gay men who are older
(19:35):
than me, are estranged fromtheir family, or their families
passed on. So who do they haveto go to when they're having a
bad day? When they need to getpicked up from the hospital
because they've just went, youknow, like, the other day, they
went through radiationtreatment. Who's picking me up
to drive me home after that?Right?
I have that, you know, communitythat folks that can come
(19:57):
together, but so many peopledon't.
Jessica Samuels (19:59):
Are there expectations within, in your
experience, within the gay malecommunity, are the expectations
about talking about mentalhealth different
Matteo Stewart (20:11):
Oh, a 100%. Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (20:13):
In the straight male community?
Matteo Stewart (20:14):
Yeah. And I can't speak for
Jessica Samuels (20:15):
all gay men. Of course not.
Matteo Stewart (20:17):
But for many of us, it's it's it's either you're
out and you're strong or you'reone of those weak closeted
people. And it's an interestingdivide that I don't think it's
talked a lot about.
Jessica Samuels (20:29):
You're weak because you're not out.
Matteo Stewart (20:30):
You're not out. Yeah. You're not out. You're
closeted. Those folks tend toget pushed aside in the
community.
We don't offer the same empathyor support.
Jessica Samuels (20:43):
But it's interesting, the other part of
that is you said out and strong,that implies We're not.
Matteo Stewart (20:49):
That's just it. We're not. I'll be the first to
admit. Seriously, when theyfound a tumour, immediately
wanted to cry. But in front ofmy partner, in front of my
friends, I put on the strongface.
I didn't cry until I was alonein the bathroom. And that
expectation to not be able toaddress one's feelings or to
(21:13):
suppress. Think another thing,too, that's maybe a skill that
gay and lesbian people have, iswe've done, for many of
Jessica Samuels (21:23):
us, for
Matteo Stewart (21:24):
so many years, have been able to either repress
our feelings or compartmentalizeit so that we can survive. And
we're in survival mode all thetime.
Jessica Samuels (21:36):
But we also know you were talking about
what's good for our bodies. Weknow that is also
Matteo Stewart (21:40):
Because not now you're operating where your
amygdala is being triggered, oryou're storing unhealthy
emotions in the body, areimpacting the rest of the whole
health system.
Jessica Samuels (21:52):
Did you have I mean, you talked about specific
incidences, and certainly beingdiagnosed with leukemia is huge
throughout your life, instancesof struggling to manage your
mental health. How did youbalance this juggling act?
Matteo Stewart (22:07):
Here's the thing, and was going to drop it
enough, is the only way thatI've really gotten over it is to
be like, I'm going to struggleand still show up. And for me,
that's been my strategy. Nowthat works for me. That doesn't
work for others. And so somepeople go, Well, aren't you
nervous?
(22:28):
And I'm like, Yeah, I'm nervous.I'm scared. I'm sweating like
buckets, but I'm going to do itanyway. And that's not always a
healthy approach, because I'mnot addressing, but it's not
necessarily the most effectiveway of doing it. But that's what
has worked for me.
Because that's what I had to doas an 18 year old who's coming
to terms with (22:48):
I wasn't interested in my girlfriend I
was interested in her brother.And now what does that mean? And
how do I put that feeling asidein the hurt that came from the
homophobia, from the commentsthat would be left on my
yearbook, or the comments thatwould be made in the hallway at
(23:09):
high school, or the commentsthat would be made by the
principal or the teachers thatwere anti gay. And I just
survived. I went into survivalmode to be able to push that
aside.
Jessica Samuels (23:21):
Right. So if someone who's listening right
now in survival mode and yousaid, I'm going to struggle, but
I'm still going to show up, Ifeel like what I'm hearing is
they've to find their way aroundwhat that
Matteo Stewart (23:32):
looks like. It could be. But is that going to
work for everybody? No. And I'llbe honest, at 50 years old, that
has not been the healthiest.
Because guess what that meant?That meant that I, on a Friday
night, would be smashing a pizzaand a large bag of ketchup or
salt and vinegar chips, and Iwent to food as my solace. And I
(23:53):
was very large. At one point, Iwas over three hundred pounds.
And that wasn't a healthy way todeal with it, but that's what I
did.
Jessica Samuels (24:02):
And sometimes when we talk about managing
mental health, it's the grief orthe struggle being in the
moment, noting, acknowledging,but not sitting in that for too
long. Yeah. And so that soundslike, you know, kind of
oscillate and float in and outof Yeah. We talked about you
(24:27):
mentioned accessing health. Sowhether it's mental health, but
in this instance, let's talkabout physical health care
services across the community asa gay man.
This is another aspect thatdidn't occur to me because
there's also gay men's sexualhealth. There is a thing and
there's actually a resource thatwe'll mention later on that for
(24:48):
that. But then just alsoaccessing health services and
the act of sharing with themedical practitioner that you're
gay.
Matteo Stewart (24:57):
Yeah. Well, it's such a critical thing, right?
And so if I just take a stepback, there's two parts I So
want to ten years ago, when Iwas first diagnosed, it took
months for the team to figureout what was wrong. Leukemia can
be sometimes difficult todiagnose, but because I shared
(25:17):
that I was gay, the initialdoctors, because then I didn't
have a family doctor, I onlyhad, you know, I'd go to the
drop in clinic and be like, Hey,I have night sweats, I am not
feeling good, and I mentionedthat I was gay, so what did they
do? They did HIV tests, they didhepatitis tests, and they kept
saying, But you don't have HIV,you don't have hepatitis, you
don't have any sectortransmitted disease.
(25:40):
Because they were limiting thetesting that they did, because
the assumption was, because Iwas a gay man, it must have been
HIV, or it must have been asexually transmitted disease.
Not that it could be a diseasethat affects any human being.
And it wasn't until mind you, Iwas an advocate for myself, and
I was strongly advocating that,no, something's not right here,
(26:05):
that we finally did someadditional tests. But that was
months. It was almost like sevenmonths before I got And that, to
me, was if I hadn't been thatadvocate, how long would it been
before I started gettingtreatment?
Jessica Samuels (26:17):
Well, advocating. Hey, we've talked
about on this podcast a lot, youknow, advocating for your health
and mental health. I mean, it'sa tough system out there right
now. You know, doctors andnurses and everyone in the
medical system, they're workinghard. But our system needs an
overhaul.
So oftentimes as an individualadvocating for your health, it's
(26:40):
kind of how we have to rollthese days. Has been my
experience and experience ofmany people that I talk to. I
again, I didn't think about thatabout the opposite. So I was
thinking about not being out tothe doctor. You're talking about
being out and making
Matteo Stewart (26:58):
go the opposite direction. But here's the thing,
too, that often doesn't getdiscussed, especially and again,
this is the intersection ofmental health and physical
health because, again, they'reso interconnected is, for many
people in the gay community,there are resources like
medications like PrEP that couldreally help help prevent, you
know, not just get exposed toHIV or AIDS, but to also be, you
(27:24):
know, some preventativemedicine. However, here in the
Okanagan, if you're inVancouver, you're in Toronto,
you're in Calgary, access tomedication like PrEP is very
easy to get. Know, you go have aconversation with your doctor,
you can get prescribed on it,and you can go. Here in the
Okanagan?
Not every doctor will do that.And then if you want, guess
(27:45):
where it comes from? It has tobe shipped from Vancouver. And
not every pharmacy will fillthat prescription here because
of folks' views on, what theywould say, enabling the gay
lifestyle, if you will. And soit becomes much harder.
So, if you have a physician thatyou're not out to, or you have a
(28:07):
physician that you do come outto, it's so hard to get a family
doctor, how do you then get onPrEP? Or how do you get access
to this? Which can be, what thedata tells us, in terms of very
beneficial for of course,there's all things like safe sex
practices, are still veryimportant, still the fact that
(28:29):
we have a potential veryeffective the data is very clear
potentially very effectivesolution, or at least part of a
solution. And yet, gay men can'taccess that equitably here in
the Okanagan as compared toother communities in Canada.
Jessica Samuels (28:47):
So, so that I am clear, You're talking about a
widely medically acceptedmedication. Correct. It's not,
you know, it's legal, it'sproven and widely practiced in
many medical facilities in termsof writing these prescriptions.
(29:11):
And you're saying that not onlyis it not accessible here in
Kelowna, we have to you wouldhave to get it from Vancouver.
But some doctors and somepharmacies just will refuse.
Matteo Stewart (29:23):
So in fact, one of the things, one of the groups
that I was going to mention,like Kim and Advocacy Canada,
will tell you, here's thedoctors that we recommend,
here's the pharmacies that we'llfill, and that list, when you
look at the overall list ofpharmacies in the Okanagan, it's
quite small. Mind you, there arenow online options which you can
(29:43):
go to, but then I always wonder,you know, if you're going to an
online option, you're not havingthe same conversation with an
online as you would with yourprimary care physician. And so
that's where now I worry about,you know, that intersection of,
Does your primary care physicianor your care team fully know and
understand your entire livedexperience and your entire lived
(30:06):
history? Because then, now, whenyou start talking about, Well,
I'm having mental health issues,or I might be on other
medication, so many folks,because it's not, you know, if I
was to be admitted to InteriorHealth, they would have access
to the medications that havebeen prescribed to me. But if I
had to get PrEP outside, guesswhat?
That's not going to show up whenI go to emerge, and I'm
(30:29):
unresponsive. And if I can'ttell them that I'm on PrEP, they
wouldn't have access to thatbecause that's not being
administered through thatsystem. And so, we run that risk
as well of the medical team,your care team, not having an
understanding that gay man'sfull care that they're
(30:51):
receiving.
Jessica Samuels (30:51):
Right. Yeah. That holistic care. Everything
that an individual needs thatperhaps individuals like myself
wouldn't wouldn't think aboutthat.
Matteo Stewart (31:00):
Yeah,
Jessica Samuels (31:00):
right. I wouldn't think about it wouldn't
occur to me that a pharmacywould not. Are they allowed to
do that? Not fill aprescription. Yeah, yeah.
Gosh, we got so many things totalk about. So much to talk
about. I want to how like let'sjust briefly before we wrap up,
(31:20):
you you have a cancer diagnosis.And so really talking about that
mind body connection. How areyou managing to keep yourself
healthy physically and mentally?
Matteo Stewart (31:31):
So what I'm finding is I'm lifting things.
So what I love, folks atInterior Health, great folks
that are there, my care team'samazing. But when I leave, I'm
on my own. I drive myself homeand now how I'm managing is I'm
really hyper focused on what Ieat. So now, cutting down sugar.
(31:53):
So I'm focused, I've got thatlaser focus, if you will. But
now I'm also moving things. Soat the gym, my favorite thing is
the sled push and pull. So mytrainer's got me, you know, just
lifting heavy things. And whatI'm finding is when I do that,
I've got the headset on, I'm inthe zone, As the blood's going,
as I'm doing, to me, I'm findinggreat solace in that.
(32:15):
But then the best solace hasbeen, after I'm done, the
conversations that I have. Theguys there at the gym, they go,
Yo, Jim Santa, you know, I'veAnd got this the lady who works
behind the smoothie bar, she'salways like, Are you going to
get your usual today? Andthere's just this camaraderie.
And then tomorrow morning, sotomorrow, well, wherever the
(32:39):
people are watching, buttomorrow for me will be
Saturday. At 09:00, I'm going gomeet a group sometimes we have
40, older gay men, and I'musually the youngest one there,
so I feel fabulous.
But what I love is we just haveconversations, and it's nothing
to do with being gay. It's justus just having a coffee
together, coming together, andwatching folks get their they
(33:00):
light up when they see you. AndI light up when I see them. To
me, that is something that Ilook forward to. And then we
have a gay curling league, orit's a mixed league of gender
non specific individuals whoidentify as part of the
community or supporters andallies.
And I don't even curl, to behonest. I have to be careful. So
(33:24):
I sit upstairs with a couple ofthe other folks, and we cheer
everybody on. Then everyone,once they're done, comes
upstairs and we just have thissense of community. And again,
we're not talking about beinggay, we're just talking about
But it's a safe space for us.
I don't have to worry aboutsomebody making some homophobic
comment or a racist comment. Wecan just sit there, be
(33:47):
ourselves, and not have to codeswitch or mask who we are. We're
genuinely excited to see eachother. To me, there's no better
feeling than that. It's the samewhen every time I go see my
parents, see my mom, know, thatbig hug.
That kind of community, whereeverybody gives you a hug,
(34:08):
everyone's really excited, andwhen they ask you, How are you
doing? They ask, How are youdoing? Right? And that to me,
having that And so if we hadthat more available, or if we
had folks where they had a senseof community and a sense of
purpose, something to lookforward to, Would that help
(34:28):
impact folks' mental health?It's not going be the cure all,
but could that be?
I'd rather do that than takeanother I'm done with taking
medication now I'd rather focuson healthy eating, healthy
living, and stuff that makes apositive impact.
Jessica Samuels (34:46):
Powerful words. Thank you. And so folks who are
listening desperately want that,it's not that they don't believe
it's not going to help them.They just don't know how to get
started. We talked aboutresources.
You mentioned check him out orhim. Yes, check him out. Ca.
PFLAGCanada, GMSH, which is gaymen's sexual health. Ca.
(35:12):
What are some other ways thatcan support holistically and
overall gay men that work foryou?
Matteo Stewart (35:19):
One of the things I would recommend is get
off the apps. Or you can be onthem, but have a group of folks.
Have some folks to meet. So foranyone who might be interested,
Advocacy Canada, which does alot of great work to support the
2SLGBTQI plus communities, hassome great events for the trans
and supporting the transcommunity. We also have some
(35:39):
really great meetups for gaymen.
We have a coffee meetup. There'sa bunch of tea dances that
happen once a month. I love thetea dance because as I'm getting
older, I don't want to go to theclub anymore. The tea dance is
great because it's like, in theafternoon, I'm home by six. And
it's great.
And it's over. It's greatbecause then I don't have to
worry about going to the club.And then we do, like in the
(36:01):
summer, have barbecues where wejust come together, and it's
just a really great sense ofcommunity. And our unifying
factor is, yes, we mightidentify as part of the gay
community, but that's only onepart of our many intersecting
identities. And we can just beour true authentic selves, as we
whatever we're going to talkabout.
Whether we're talking aboutfootball, we're talking about
(36:21):
hockey, or we're talking aboutgardening, it doesn't matter. We
can just be ourselves and havethat shine in our eyes. And
that, to me, is probably themost powerful thing that's
really gotten me through thedarkest days.
Jessica Samuels (36:36):
Matteo, thank you so much.
Matteo Stewart (36:38):
Oh, thank you.
Jessica Samuels (36:39):
Big discussion. We went over a few resources
there. At the end, we'll havethe links to those on the A Way
Forward podcast page atcmhaclona.org. If you have any
questions or comments about thistopic or any other topic, please
feel free to email me atawayforwardcmhakolana dot org.
Until then, please do take goodcare.
(37:01):
This episode is supported byBeam Credit Union. With deep
roots in BC and a commitment toyour financial journey, Bean
proudly backs mental healthconversations that help build
stronger, healthier communities.
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