December 4, 2024 • 35 mins
In Episode 6 of A Way Forward: Conversations on Mental Health, presented by Beem Credit Union, host Jessica Samuels sits down with Mike Gawliuk, CEO of CMHA Kelowna, to discuss findings from the State of Mental Health in Canada report. They delve into the report’s key insights, the challenges facing mental health care in British Columbia, and the steps needed to address these issues. From the toxic drug crisis to housing affordability, this episode highlights the pressing need for systemic change while exploring innovative approaches that offer hope for the future.
Key Topics Discussed:
- Mental Health in BC:
BC’s attempt to manage mental health care through a specialized ministry, rather than integrating it into the Ministry of Health, has been described as a "seven-year failed experiment." The challenges of this model and its impact on service delivery are unpacked. - Stigma and Discrimination in Mental Health:
BC has the highest rates of stigma and discrimination related to mental health and substance use in Canada. Mike and Jessica explore the potential causes and implications of this troubling statistic. - The Toxic Drug Crisis:
The ongoing opioid epidemic is discussed as a major issue in BC, underscoring the need for urgent action to reduce overdoses and provide support for substance users. - Mental Health Data and Measurement Gaps:
Questions arise about the accuracy and validity of provincial mental health data. Mike explains how data inconsistencies complicate efforts to measure progress and allocate resources effectively. - Innovative Solutions in BC:
The episode highlights programs like the PACT initiative (Peer Assisted Care Teams), which provides non-police responses to mental health crises. Originating in North and West Vancouver, this program has shown promising results and could expand to Kelowna. - Housing and Affordability:
Housing affordability remains a critical issue in BC, with seniors and vulnerable populations increasingly affected. Despite recent investments, more action is needed to address homelessness and ensure affordable housing for all. - National Recommendations:
The report calls for:- Legislating that 12% of provincial health spending be dedicated to mental health and substance use services.
- Eliminating poverty, recognizing its direct connection to mental illness.
- Collecting better data to improve service delivery and outcomes.
Calls to Action:
- Advocacy: Listeners are encouraged to advocate for increased mental health funding and policy changes.
- Support Those Affected: Check in with your friends, family, and those struggling with mental health in your life.
- Read the Report: Access the full State of Mental Health in Canada report here.
**Resources:
https://cmha.ca/what-we-do/policy-research/state-of-mental-health-in-canada/
**General Mental Health Resources:**
If you or someone you know is struggling, CMHA Kelowna's Find Help Now page has a list of emergency and non-emergency resources for individuals of any age. CMHA Kelowna - Find Help Now
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Samuels (00:00):
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to
episode 6 of A Way Forwardpodcast presented by Beam Credit
Union. I'd like to acknowledgetoday that we are on the
traditional ancestral andunceded lands of the Okanagan,
Siilux people. CEO for CMHAKelowna, Mike Golik, joins me
once again. And today we'regoing to talk about a recent
(00:21):
report on the mental health ofCanadians and how since the
pandemic, it has gottensignificantly worse.
Thanks for being here, Mike.Well, the state of mental health
report, the state of mentalhealth in Canada report has been
(00:42):
unveiled and the findings. Imean, I don't mind saying it,
they're troubling. We're goingto get into some of that. First,
I wouldn't mind just taking astep back.
And you explaining to us the thewho, what, why, Why was this
report even done, in the firstplace?
Mike Gawliuk (01:00):
Yeah. For sure. So who, was CMHA National who's
released this report, who, youknow, has a mandate to look at
the federal level of investmentand what's going across Canada.
Part of the why is that, Canadahas signed on to the United
Nations International HumanRights Treaties and, commit to
(01:23):
ensuring that all people inCanada have the right to the
highest attainable standard ofhealth and to nondiscrimination
based on disability. The realityis mental health care is a basic
human right.
Mhmm. What this report reallyunearths is that that's not
(01:45):
being lived up to.
Jessica Samuels (01:47):
Right.
Mike Gawliuk (01:47):
And, ultimately, there's a lot of work that has
to be done in this country toget to that place.
Jessica Samuels (01:53):
Mhmm. So Canada said yes through the United
Nations Human Rights that healthand what's embedded in that is
mental health, cough cough, is ahuman right. Now let's examine
it and it's we're not doing avery good job as a country.
Mike Gawliuk (02:11):
No. I I mean, you know, what the report will will
show and and and willdemonstrate is is just that.
There is no universal mentalhealth care in this country.
And, what that means is, there's2,500,000 people, in Canada that
(02:33):
aren't getting access to therequired help that they need.
That's the equivalent of thepopulation of Saskatchewan and
Manitoba put together.
People's mental health is 3times worse than it was pre
pandemic, which again is asignificant concern. And we're
(02:55):
seeing certainly mental health.38% of indigenous people report
that their mental health is fairto poor. And certainly youth,
which is a population that we'revery familiar with and provide
some support. Unfortunately, 57%of young people aged 18 to 24
(03:17):
have indicated that cost is anobstacle to getting mental
health care.
And and I think as we've talkedthrough other episodes and we
talk about, you know, where canyou turn for help, you know,
we've talked about the fact thatif you've got means, to go and
Right. Pay for a counselor, ifyou're employed and you have a
(03:38):
benefit package, you can accesscare through that. And then or
you're reliant upon the publicsystem, which sometimes is
exceptionally overwhelmed, underunderfunded, obviously. And
that's why in part, we're in thesituation that we're in.
Jessica Samuels (03:57):
Three times worse than before the pandemic.
Was this so was this study donethis year? Was it done in 2024?
Mike Gawliuk (04:05):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (04:06):
So that's really interesting to me because
I feel like if we had done thestudy 2 years ago, I'd be like,
yeah, well, okay, we're still inthe pandemic. And when I say
that I want to talk about thethe physical, you know, like
quarantine, putting on masks,COVID. That's what I mean by in
the pandemic. And so I'dunderstand it. It's interesting
(04:28):
that few years out, I don't knowwhy.
I mean, I don't know when we cansay the pandemic ended, but I
feel like we're not as in-depthwith those symptoms and those
societal restrictions that weput on ourselves. We're not
still in that. We are worse offfrom mental health.
Mike Gawliuk (04:47):
From a mental health standpoint, yeah. That's
certainly what's beingidentified. I think when you
look at it, it comes back tothings that we've we've talked
about. Right? Theintersectionality of a number of
different of issue a number ofdifferent issues that are taking
place within society.
You know, the economicchallenges, the affordability
piece. Right? Mhmm. That'ssomething that we've talked
(05:10):
about is having an impact on onon people's mental health. We've
got a significant issue when itcomes to drug poisoning, and I
think what this report showsthat, BC really is ground 0 for
the drug poisoning crisis withabout 33% of people who have
died in the country, being fromBritish Columbia.
(05:34):
So you take those factors intoplay, you take into the fact
that, you know the issues aroundthe environment, forest fires,
all those pieces, like those areall factors that combine to
cause people to, you know, beimpacted from a mental health
standpoint.
Jessica Samuels (05:54):
And so would we then assume because some of
these factors were there priorto the pandemic and that, you
know, let's just say 2019 andbefore, but is it the piling on
of the ripple out effects of thepandemic? I mean, certainly we
know the cost of living hasincreased. Kelowna has not been
(06:15):
widely known as a place that isA, affordable or B, easy to get
affordable housing. So is it arethose things worse as well,
which is what's piling on to ourmental health?
Mike Gawliuk (06:27):
Well, yeah. I I mean, I think certainly those
things have, played a part. Imean, we had a we had a major
fire here in 2023. Right?There's no doubt about that and
the impact that that has on, ourcommunities.
The affordability, of housinghas continued to, you know, grow
(06:47):
as time has gone Time has goneon and certainly, wages and
salaries aren't necessarilykeeping up with that. Mhmm.
Right? The the cost ofgroceries, all the things that
we know about, I think are kindof like this. How would I
describe it?
This really, it's got a snowballeffect. Yeah. And, and it's and
(07:12):
it's and it's super concerning.
Jessica Samuels (07:14):
It's a lot. So okay. So let's dig in a little
bit deeper to some of thesethings. So what's interesting is
that this was measured orgrouped together through 24
indicators, this report, andthey were there were 24
indicators and it was groupedtogether in 5 areas. So, so
(07:34):
stigma, discrimination andmistreatment within the health
system, access to services, theoverall population, the mental
health, how they deem to be havetheir mental health.
And this one I kind of savedbecause it's going to lead into
the next. The governmentleadership, the investment that
is being made into mental healthaddiction and substance use.
(07:57):
There's some interesting thingsabout those numbers. So first of
all, talk about the Canadianstat and then we'll drill it
down to what BC looks like.
Mike Gawliuk (08:06):
Yeah. Well, what they found is that through this
study, basically, on average,the provinces are spending 6.3%
of their budgets on mentalhealth and substance use care.
The number needs to be closer to12%.
Jessica Samuels (08:23):
How do they get to the 12 percent? How do we
know that?
Mike Gawliuk (08:25):
They look at they look at population. They look at
prevalence of illness and theymap it out in terms of what that
looks like. Other jurisdictions,certainly when we look across
the world, France is at 15%.Germany's at 11%. We're, again,
on average, not keeping up.
(08:45):
Now one of the pieces that wasas well in the report is that
the number, for BC was unable wewere there wasn't able to come
up with a number. Now thereality around that is simply
that we've had a mental healthmental health and addictions
ministry in the province. We'vehad a health ministry in the
(09:05):
province. Mental health spendingcomes out of the health care
budget. So the ability tomeasure those numbers, taking
the numbers for MMHA doesn'tspeak to the amount of money
that's going out into servicesor anything else because that
ministry was a policy ministry.
(09:26):
It wasn't a funding ministry. Soit's not like, it's not like you
know, there's, wolves beingpulled over people's eyes. It's
the reality of where how thesystem is set up and where that
spending is coming from wasn'treadily available for this
report.
Jessica Samuels (09:46):
Okay. No. No. How I mean, thank you for the
answer and the explanation. Itfeels weird, though, when you're
looking at the report to to toto see that there's there's no
way to pull that data from BC.
And it does. It makes you feellike, okay, wait, what is going
on here? How come we don't havethis information? And then we go
back to all this stuff that youjust talked about, where it's
(10:08):
like, you know, the opioidoverdose crisis, homelessness,
you know, the mental health, youknow, the the numbers, the
indigenous people, the youthpeople thinking, okay. So how
are we gonna start measuringthis?
Because, we've got a problem.
Mike Gawliuk (10:23):
Well, I'd say I'd say certainly we have a problem.
I I think, going back to thatcomment, we've just been through
a provincial election. Mhmm.Certainly, one of the things,
that's happened is that, theMinistry of Mental Health and
Addictions has now folded backinto health. I mean, the reasons
(10:44):
the reasons for that are many.
I mean, ultimately, again, thatthat ministry was a policy
ministry. It was designed toadvocate and bring other
ministries within governmenttogether to to be able to work
collaboratively aroundaddressing mental health. The
(11:04):
fact that, the decision was madeto roll it back into health
would suggest that, ultimately,it didn't have the impact or or
the efficacy that it wasoriginally hoped for or intended
that it would.
Jessica Samuels (11:18):
Right. I was looking at one article from news
outlet and they called it the 7year experiment. Well, they said
failed, but the implication isit was not a success. And that's
what we would kind of glean thatit didn't achieve the results
anywhere near we want it to. Solet's go back to what other
provinces are doing is having itwithin the Ministry of Health in
(11:39):
that same
Mike Gawliuk (11:40):
bucket. And going back to going back to what we've
done historically as well.
Jessica Samuels (11:45):
Okay. So when we look at the stats for B. C.
And some of the other thingsthat just because we're talking
about BC now and and maybe someof the things that weren't
achieved, what are some other BCstats that stood out for you
where we're falling behind?
Mike Gawliuk (12:04):
Well, again, I'd say the big piece is is around
the toxic drug crisis. Right? Iwould reinforce that that
ultimately is something that'svery much BC specific. Mhmm.
It's, and it's something that'sserious and there's something
that we need to to ultimatelydeal with.
One of the other things that wasa concerning perspective was
(12:28):
that, the rates of stigma anddiscrimination, were the highest
in BC, out of Canada, which is,which is cause for concern.
Jessica Samuels (12:40):
Stigma and discrimination as it pertains to
mental health, addiction, andsubstance use? Okay. The highest
in Canada is in BC. Okay.
Mike Gawliuk (12:50):
Interesting. That was that's that's concerning.
Jessica Samuels (12:52):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my next natural question
is why? I I don't know if youhave that answer but
Mike Gawliuk (12:59):
I I don't know if I have that answer. I mean, I
think I can speculate a littlebit. I mean, certainly, what
we've seen in our communities,what we've seen in terms of the
challenges of, you know,decriminalization, substance
use, people that are people thatare unhoused, You know, the
(13:21):
reality is, and I think our mostrecent provincial election
showed us, that there's, thatpeople aren't happy with the way
things are. And so you can seesome of that potentially leading
into that stat. That's that'sone of the, like, the sort of
educated guesses that it wouldmake under the circumstances.
Jessica Samuels (13:44):
Right. So we're talking about some of the issues
that are in B. C. When we talkabout the opioid crisis and the
affordability. You referencingthe recent events in the last
few years, but I just going tobe a bit of a dog with a bone on
this.
And there's some other statsthat are broken out and they
broke out all the stats for allthe provinces so we can see how
Canada fares against otherprovinces and across Canada. But
(14:07):
if we don't have accuratemeasurement for this, for this
province, how do we know thatwhat we did find is accurate?
Was that a circular question?But you know what I mean? Like
on on so explain to me thedifference between what they
(14:28):
couldn't measure and what theydid measure.
Mike Gawliuk (14:31):
Well, what they did measure was a series of
publicly available public healthmeasures. That's how they broke
it down into those fivemeasures. So that's where that
data came from.
Jessica Samuels (14:42):
Okay.
Mike Gawliuk (14:43):
Of course, I can understand your your query as it
were about if we can't say howmuch money has actually been
spent or what percentage hasbeen spent in British Columbia,
then then how is the other datavalid? Mhmm. I mean, this is
this is data that is isconsistent across the study and
publicly available nationally.Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (15:06):
Right. And so some of these other things that
I'm noticing for this provinceas you you mentioned, the
perceived mental health here inBC is is slightly worse or the
percentage is slightly higher.However you want to express that
is poor or fair. Substanceabuse, as we noted, rates of
hospitalization due to selfharm. This this is significantly
(15:28):
higher than the nationalaverage.
So what I have is that in BC,75% versus 65%. Again, this is
an indication, I think,oftentimes, you and I have
talked about and we've talkedabout on this this podcast about
that early intervention andprevention piece. Like, what
what does that tell what doesthat stat lead you to, I don't
(15:53):
want to say assume, but lead youto understand about the people
who are struggling and the pointin time in which they have to
get help.
Mike Gawliuk (16:02):
Well, I I mean, we've talked about this before
and certainly we know that, asignificant percentage of,
mental health mental illnessesshow up in young people under
the age of 25. So you cancertainly read some of that into
it. Mhmm. I would think that,certainly what it shows again is
(16:24):
that the need for a system thatinvests in early intervention,
prevention, treatment, isabsolutely necessary in order to
make those numbers move. And,again, what the overall report
(16:48):
is saying is that there needs tobe more investment in this and
that's at the federal governmentlevel.
Right. Right? And what CMHA isis calling for ultimately is to
set that into law. So ultimatelythen that 12% of funding that
(17:10):
goes to the province must bespent specifically on mental
health and substance useresources and programs.
Jessica Samuels (17:17):
So writing the 12% spend into law or just
increased resources andspending?
Mike Gawliuk (17:23):
No, writing that in
Jessica Samuels (17:25):
Writing it.
Mike Gawliuk (17:25):
So that provinces are specifically held to that
number and to use it,specifically towards mental
health and substance use. Right.Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (17:33):
One of the other interesting factors about
this is the availability andaccess to mental health.
Certainly, we talk about anoverwhelmed system when we're in
a well populated, somewhat urbanarea known as the central
Okanagan. When we look at thenorthern communities and
specifically indigenouscommunities, when you said 38%,
(17:54):
I think off the top of peoples,Indigenous peoples are reporting
that their mental health is partof fair. Is this part and parcel
to the location? Is thisIndigenous folks in northern
communities?
Is this indigenous folks thatare spread across the country
and in all communities?
Mike Gawliuk (18:11):
Well, I I I think certainly what the what the
report speaks to is, certainlyin the north and in in rural
communities, you know, theaccess to services is just
simply not there like it wouldbe in larger urban centers. So,
I mean, that's that's onereality is is, you know, the
(18:34):
ability to get help, isn't isn'tavailable, which obviously is
going to create some challenges.There's no doubt about it. When
it comes to, indigenous people,there's a whole lot more that's
wrapped up in that. Right?
And it goes far beyond whetherthere's access to treatment, but
(18:57):
it's access to culturally safeand culturally competent care.
And that's that needs to beworked on as well.
Jessica Samuels (19:10):
Right. Is this something that is called out
within? So, okay, so let's movethis a little bit forward is
that in the report there aresome recommendations. Let's go
over some of the recommendationsin kind of what they like to
see. So you said obviously that12% spend written into law and
provinces held accountable.
What are some of the otherthings that recommendations that
(19:32):
were made?
Mike Gawliuk (19:35):
So those were 2. One gets back to the social
development or socialdeterminants of health. It comes
back to poverty and it comesback to the fact that people
that are living in poverty aremore likely to struggle with
mental illness. And so, one ofthe one of the calls to
government is to eliminatepoverty, which is a big ask
(19:58):
Yeah. Ultimately.
And that, the other ask is tocollect more and better data to
improve the mental health healthcare system and the mental
health of Canadians.
Jessica Samuels (20:09):
Sound like very robust, recommendations and
broad recommendations. I canonly imagine that the devil will
be in the details for this, andI'm sure this will kind of, eke
and emerge its way out as thisgets delved into, hopefully
delved into, as as we gofurther. So, one thing do we
know I guess, are we sittinghere waiting for a response from
(20:31):
the government? Or, I mean, it'sthe interesting thing with these
reports. So you have theNational Mental Health
Organization saying, this is notgood enough.
We need to do better, And theymake recommendations. And then
it's like, okay, now what?
Mike Gawliuk (20:47):
Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (20:48):
So now we wait. We what do we do?
Mike Gawliuk (20:51):
Well, I think now, we continue to spread the word.
Right? We we need, more peopleto understand this information,
understand this data, you know,to to advocate to government,
for these changes and thatresources be added to the mix. I
think that's one one part that,anybody, ultimately can do.
(21:16):
Right?
This is about advocacy. This isabout making sure that that that
that voice is loud and it'sunderstood that something needs
to happen. Mhmm. Certainly, whatwe've seen, provincially is when
CMHA has taken on advocacyinitiatives and it's come into
(21:42):
elections that many of thosehave been taken up in and by
government. And I think thereport you know, points to a few
of the bright spots.
And some of those bright spotsare the direct result of
advocacy, certainly at aprovincial level. You know, a
(22:04):
few examples listed in thereport are sort of the crisis
carry form that's taken place.And in British Columbia, CMHA
launched and is is in theprocess of growing the PACT
program, which is a crisisresponse team made up of
(22:27):
civilian responders. So a mentalhealth professional teamed with
a peer supporter, and that cameout of the concerns that there
needed to be a differentresponse when it came to crisis
that didn't necessarily need toinvolve, the legal authorities.
It launched in North and WestVan and is now, spread to a
(22:47):
number of other communities inthe province.
Yeah. That's, that's one of thehighlights that this report
brings forward. There's other,there's other examples in
different provinces acrossCanada as well but BC and CMHA
in particular, BC division ledthe way in bringing that
forward.
Jessica Samuels (23:06):
Right. So when you say, love, like law
enforcement officials, we'retalking about the difference be
be between having police respondto incidences that are clearly
related to or due to a mentalhealth crisis and really kind of
changing how that's being done.So, you know, it's it's it's a
(23:26):
highlight. It's a it's aspotlight that was outlined in
this report. It must be showingthat this is doing well in in
North Van and Vancouver.
Mike Gawliuk (23:35):
Yeah. So it it originated in North and West
Vancouver and it spread to anumber of other communities.
It's showing a significantdifference. Right? The dynamic
that changes when it's a trainedmental health professional, and
a and a and a peer supportworker who understands what's
going on, are more likely tohave an effective response,
(23:58):
within that.
So it's definitely somethingthat, got off the ground and
because of the outcomes withthat program has has begun to
grown throughout the province.Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (24:09):
Is this something then that we would
hope? Would you like to do thishere in Kelowna? And
specifically would CMHA Kelownalike to do this?
Mike Gawliuk (24:18):
So, I mean, certainly I've as have a number
of other organizations been partof the Kelowna Public Safety
Plan. There's a specific actionitem towards a civilian crisis
response team and there havebeen ongoing conversations
around how, we're going to beable to bring PACT to Kelowna.
(24:39):
Would CMHA, be interested inplaying a role in that? 100% in
partnership, with themunicipality along with our
other service delivery partners.We we have a keen interest in
that and I would suggest basedon what we know in our
community, a significant need inthis community for that service.
(25:01):
Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (25:02):
Right. One of the other spotlights that came
through this this pockets ofinnovation is what they're
calling it in the report is,another one of those is the
housing investment. So CMHAColon is a housing provider,
significant housing provider,both supportive and affordable
housing, different types ofhousing in this community. And
(25:24):
up to this point, here's anexample of of of our province
actually doing a lot in thisarea. And please correct me if
I'm wrong.
But then recently, the budgetshave shown that it's not
necessarily going to there's notgoing to be any extra spend in
this area. Now now fact check meon that, but we've got that and
(25:47):
then we've got the call fromCMHA National to say we have to
end poverty, we have to endhomelessness when we've got
provinces already doing it.Know, this feels like it's gonna
be a long way off to achieve.
Mike Gawliuk (25:59):
Well, I think I I mean, certainly provincially,
there's been significantinvestments into housing, which
includes affordable housing. Itit includes support of, housing.
It's included, investment intothe rental protection fund,
which is a fund that allowsnonprofits to acquire older
(26:19):
properties that are at risk of,renoviction and redevelopment
and to be able to keep themaffordable and then potentially
redevelop them themselves. Sothere's there's been a lot of
investment in to housing.There's certainly been a lot of
legislative changes as wellaround housing, to ensure that
more of it can get built.
Certainly knowing that, that's alot of can get built. Certainly
(26:42):
knowing that that was a key partof the most recent election, the
commitment to continue to moveforward in building affordable
housing and I just returned fromthe BC Nonprofit Housing
Association, annual conference.Certainly, it's it's about
putting the the the foot on thegas, not on the brakes. And not
(27:06):
only recognizing the need, butthe many different ways that
housing can get built and helpto address some of those
affordability issues.
Jessica Samuels (27:16):
To put you under the spot once again. So if
we have a province that hasspent significant dollars and
paid attention and advocacytowards, addressing the
homelessness and affordablehousing issue in our province,
and yet we are still so far offthe mark, What's the case to
continue along this course,understanding that we need more,
(27:42):
but are we getting there? Are wemaking a difference? Are we
making a dent in what we havedone so far?
Mike Gawliuk (27:47):
Yeah. Well, I mean, the reality of the
situation is this this thisdidn't just happen one night.
Mhmm. Right? Like, one day allof a sudden these these housing
issues showed up.
Right? And it and it does goback to the federal government
and getting out of the businessof affordable housing. So the
(28:09):
reality is that across thecountry part of it is that we're
playing catch up ultimately forfor all those years where there
wasn't investment. Right? Mhmm.
And so to suggest that, youknow, what's been done over the
course of the last few years isgoing to be, sufficient, and
(28:32):
adequate to help get us to theplace where we need to be,
certainly isn't the case. Thereneeds to be more as more
projects come online and youstart to see these elements.
Certainly, we'll see adifference. The reality is that,
(28:52):
non market housing, which isultimately going to be
subsidized through government isabsolutely essential. The
private market can't build tothe same level of non market
that non profits can.
And so the reality is there'sgoing to be a need for those
funds to allow for affordablehousing for people that are in
(29:17):
deep need to be able to have aroof over their head.
Jessica Samuels (29:20):
I go back to the comment you made earlier
about the snowball effect.There's also the, I often think
of it as as the things we aredoing today are addressing the
issues of the day today. Asthings continue to be more
unaffordable, that issue isgoing to snowball in terms of
and it's going to fall out inthe housing affordability. We've
(29:43):
talked about this many times. Sothe state of the number of folks
who can afford their homes todaywould clearly it's different
than it was a couple of yearsago and might be different than
a couple of years from now.
And then you have other folkswho need, you have seniors with
fixed income. We have an agentpopulation here. So that's
always interesting to me aswell. I was playing a little
devil's advocate there thatfolks are talking about a
(30:05):
situation. It's not a staticissue.
This issue is changing due tofactors that have nothing to do
with housing. Right? But housingis one of the effects it all.
Mike Gawliuk (30:19):
For sure. I mean, at the same conference the BC
seniors advocate spoke andreally spoke to the reality of,
you know, some of the some ofthe income levels for seniors in
this province and it's scary.Like, the ability for some
seniors to be able to afford aroof over their head. We're I
(30:43):
mean, what it feels for like thefirst time, at least in my
experience, you know, we'reactually seeing seniors falling
into homelessness because theycan't afford to have the roof
over their head. That's that'sconcerning.
Right? And it's a function ofall of these other factors that
(31:04):
intersect and, and pile up onone another. And it's why one
simple solution to all of theseissues does not exist.
Ultimately, we're dealing withcomplex challenges, and we need
(31:24):
to look at investment that isnot just about this is the
answer. Mhmm.
Realistically, this is theanswer. This is the answer. Some
of that is the answer. And thensome of the answers, we don't
yet know. Mhmm.
But I can tell you anytime whenthere's just the silver bullet,
this is the thing that's goingto fix it all. Mhmm. We usually
(31:48):
end up and find ourselves alittle bit disappointed. Mhmm.
So, that investment and thisincludes mental health, it's
it's an investment in all ofthose areas.
Like I said, prevention, earlyintervention, treatment,
certainly community mentalhealth services like those that
are delivered by CMHA,absolutely essential in order to
(32:12):
continue to move things forward.Because if we don't, I'm
concerned about what this reportcould look like 2, 4, 6, 8 years
from now. It's, it's essential.
Jessica Samuels (32:28):
Yeah. I was going to ask you as we wrap up
here. So so we've talked aboutkind of the facts, the stat
facts, the white paper facts ofwhat this shows As a human, as
the, you know, the head of CMHAKelowna, someone who's been in
this sector for so long, how doyou feel when you read this? You
(32:49):
see that headline like mentalhealth is substantially worse
than It's not surprising like Imean you can just take a look
around,
Mike Gawliuk (33:06):
you can you can have a chat with your friends
like people people ultimatelyare struggling. That being said
again these pockets ofinnovation or pockets of hope
allow us to have some optimismthat actually there are things
(33:27):
that can be done, that there aredifferent things that can be put
in place that do have an impact.Certainly for me, if I felt like
there was no way forward, wellwe certainly wouldn't have this
podcast ultimately. Yeah. Andand and and certainly, I
(33:47):
wouldn't be here.
Mhmm. This is this is why we dothe work that we do. This is why
CMHA is not only a servicedelivery organization, but
certainly an advocacyorganization as well because, we
want to and we need to influencechange in order for people to
(34:09):
get the help that they need.
Jessica Samuels (34:10):
Well, I'm I'm grateful for your hope and the
innovation that goes on at CMHAclone and all the CMHAs and the
organizations in our city.There's a lot of organizations
that are just in there doingthis gritty, gritty work. And
when you when you see reportslike this and and I hope that
that folks would understand, yousee reports like that, you, you
(34:32):
wouldn't kind of fall prey to,to my devil's advocate moment
that I had a few moments ago andrecognize this is, there's no
easy button as a good friend ofours like, likes to say,
especially when it comes to
Mike Gawliuk (34:42):
this. Absolutely.
Jessica Samuels (34:43):
Thank you for that. Thank you to our sponsors,
Bean Credit Union, forsponsoring this podcast so that
we can have these discussionsand
Mike Gawliuk (34:50):
show
Jessica Samuels (34:51):
people that there really is a way forward.
We covered a ton of data.There's a ton of data we didn't
cover, and we're gonna put thefull, state of mental health, in
Canada report on the CMHAkalona.org website. Thank you so
much, Mike.
Mike Gawliuk (35:05):
Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (35:06):
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Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to
episode 6 of A Way Forwardpodcast presented by Beam Credit
Union. I'd like to acknowledgetoday that we are on the
traditional ancestral andunceded lands of the Okanagan,
Siilux people. CEO for CMHAKelowna, Mike Golik, joins me
once again. And today we'regoing to talk about a recent
(00:21):
report on the mental health ofCanadians and how since the
pandemic, it has gottensignificantly worse.
Thanks for being here, Mike.Well, the state of mental health
report, the state of mentalhealth in Canada report has been
(00:42):
unveiled and the findings. Imean, I don't mind saying it,
they're troubling. We're goingto get into some of that. First,
I wouldn't mind just taking astep back.
And you explaining to us the thewho, what, why, Why was this
report even done, in the firstplace?
Mike Gawliuk (01:00):
Yeah. For sure. So who, was CMHA National who's
released this report, who, youknow, has a mandate to look at
the federal level of investmentand what's going across Canada.
Part of the why is that, Canadahas signed on to the United
Nations International HumanRights Treaties and, commit to
(01:23):
ensuring that all people inCanada have the right to the
highest attainable standard ofhealth and to nondiscrimination
based on disability. The realityis mental health care is a basic
human right.
Mhmm. What this report reallyunearths is that that's not
(01:45):
being lived up to.
Jessica Samuels (01:47):
Right.
Mike Gawliuk (01:47):
And, ultimately, there's a lot of work that has
to be done in this country toget to that place.
Jessica Samuels (01:53):
Mhmm. So Canada said yes through the United
Nations Human Rights that healthand what's embedded in that is
mental health, cough cough, is ahuman right. Now let's examine
it and it's we're not doing avery good job as a country.
Mike Gawliuk (02:11):
No. I I mean, you know, what the report will will
show and and and willdemonstrate is is just that.
There is no universal mentalhealth care in this country.
And, what that means is, there's2,500,000 people, in Canada that
(02:33):
aren't getting access to therequired help that they need.
That's the equivalent of thepopulation of Saskatchewan and
Manitoba put together.
People's mental health is 3times worse than it was pre
pandemic, which again is asignificant concern. And we're
(02:55):
seeing certainly mental health.38% of indigenous people report
that their mental health is fairto poor. And certainly youth,
which is a population that we'revery familiar with and provide
some support. Unfortunately, 57%of young people aged 18 to 24
(03:17):
have indicated that cost is anobstacle to getting mental
health care.
And and I think as we've talkedthrough other episodes and we
talk about, you know, where canyou turn for help, you know,
we've talked about the fact thatif you've got means, to go and
Right. Pay for a counselor, ifyou're employed and you have a
(03:38):
benefit package, you can accesscare through that. And then or
you're reliant upon the publicsystem, which sometimes is
exceptionally overwhelmed, underunderfunded, obviously. And
that's why in part, we're in thesituation that we're in.
Jessica Samuels (03:57):
Three times worse than before the pandemic.
Was this so was this study donethis year? Was it done in 2024?
Mike Gawliuk (04:05):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (04:06):
So that's really interesting to me because
I feel like if we had done thestudy 2 years ago, I'd be like,
yeah, well, okay, we're still inthe pandemic. And when I say
that I want to talk about thethe physical, you know, like
quarantine, putting on masks,COVID. That's what I mean by in
the pandemic. And so I'dunderstand it. It's interesting
(04:28):
that few years out, I don't knowwhy.
I mean, I don't know when we cansay the pandemic ended, but I
feel like we're not as in-depthwith those symptoms and those
societal restrictions that weput on ourselves. We're not
still in that. We are worse offfrom mental health.
Mike Gawliuk (04:47):
From a mental health standpoint, yeah. That's
certainly what's beingidentified. I think when you
look at it, it comes back tothings that we've we've talked
about. Right? Theintersectionality of a number of
different of issue a number ofdifferent issues that are taking
place within society.
You know, the economicchallenges, the affordability
piece. Right? Mhmm. That'ssomething that we've talked
(05:10):
about is having an impact on onon people's mental health. We've
got a significant issue when itcomes to drug poisoning, and I
think what this report showsthat, BC really is ground 0 for
the drug poisoning crisis withabout 33% of people who have
died in the country, being fromBritish Columbia.
(05:34):
So you take those factors intoplay, you take into the fact
that, you know the issues aroundthe environment, forest fires,
all those pieces, like those areall factors that combine to
cause people to, you know, beimpacted from a mental health
standpoint.
Jessica Samuels (05:54):
And so would we then assume because some of
these factors were there priorto the pandemic and that, you
know, let's just say 2019 andbefore, but is it the piling on
of the ripple out effects of thepandemic? I mean, certainly we
know the cost of living hasincreased. Kelowna has not been
(06:15):
widely known as a place that isA, affordable or B, easy to get
affordable housing. So is it arethose things worse as well,
which is what's piling on to ourmental health?
Mike Gawliuk (06:27):
Well, yeah. I I mean, I think certainly those
things have, played a part. Imean, we had a we had a major
fire here in 2023. Right?There's no doubt about that and
the impact that that has on, ourcommunities.
The affordability, of housinghas continued to, you know, grow
(06:47):
as time has gone Time has goneon and certainly, wages and
salaries aren't necessarilykeeping up with that. Mhmm.
Right? The the cost ofgroceries, all the things that
we know about, I think are kindof like this. How would I
describe it?
This really, it's got a snowballeffect. Yeah. And, and it's and
(07:12):
it's and it's super concerning.
Jessica Samuels (07:14):
It's a lot. So okay. So let's dig in a little
bit deeper to some of thesethings. So what's interesting is
that this was measured orgrouped together through 24
indicators, this report, andthey were there were 24
indicators and it was groupedtogether in 5 areas. So, so
(07:34):
stigma, discrimination andmistreatment within the health
system, access to services, theoverall population, the mental
health, how they deem to be havetheir mental health.
And this one I kind of savedbecause it's going to lead into
the next. The governmentleadership, the investment that
is being made into mental healthaddiction and substance use.
(07:57):
There's some interesting thingsabout those numbers. So first of
all, talk about the Canadianstat and then we'll drill it
down to what BC looks like.
Mike Gawliuk (08:06):
Yeah. Well, what they found is that through this
study, basically, on average,the provinces are spending 6.3%
of their budgets on mentalhealth and substance use care.
The number needs to be closer to12%.
Jessica Samuels (08:23):
How do they get to the 12 percent? How do we
know that?
Mike Gawliuk (08:25):
They look at they look at population. They look at
prevalence of illness and theymap it out in terms of what that
looks like. Other jurisdictions,certainly when we look across
the world, France is at 15%.Germany's at 11%. We're, again,
on average, not keeping up.
(08:45):
Now one of the pieces that wasas well in the report is that
the number, for BC was unable wewere there wasn't able to come
up with a number. Now thereality around that is simply
that we've had a mental healthmental health and addictions
ministry in the province. We'vehad a health ministry in the
(09:05):
province. Mental health spendingcomes out of the health care
budget. So the ability tomeasure those numbers, taking
the numbers for MMHA doesn'tspeak to the amount of money
that's going out into servicesor anything else because that
ministry was a policy ministry.
(09:26):
It wasn't a funding ministry. Soit's not like, it's not like you
know, there's, wolves beingpulled over people's eyes. It's
the reality of where how thesystem is set up and where that
spending is coming from wasn'treadily available for this
report.
Jessica Samuels (09:46):
Okay. No. No. How I mean, thank you for the
answer and the explanation. Itfeels weird, though, when you're
looking at the report to to toto see that there's there's no
way to pull that data from BC.
And it does. It makes you feellike, okay, wait, what is going
on here? How come we don't havethis information? And then we go
back to all this stuff that youjust talked about, where it's
(10:08):
like, you know, the opioidoverdose crisis, homelessness,
you know, the mental health, youknow, the the numbers, the
indigenous people, the youthpeople thinking, okay. So how
are we gonna start measuringthis?
Because, we've got a problem.
Mike Gawliuk (10:23):
Well, I'd say I'd say certainly we have a problem.
I I think, going back to thatcomment, we've just been through
a provincial election. Mhmm.Certainly, one of the things,
that's happened is that, theMinistry of Mental Health and
Addictions has now folded backinto health. I mean, the reasons
(10:44):
the reasons for that are many.
I mean, ultimately, again, thatthat ministry was a policy
ministry. It was designed toadvocate and bring other
ministries within governmenttogether to to be able to work
collaboratively aroundaddressing mental health. The
(11:04):
fact that, the decision was madeto roll it back into health
would suggest that, ultimately,it didn't have the impact or or
the efficacy that it wasoriginally hoped for or intended
that it would.
Jessica Samuels (11:18):
Right. I was looking at one article from news
outlet and they called it the 7year experiment. Well, they said
failed, but the implication isit was not a success. And that's
what we would kind of glean thatit didn't achieve the results
anywhere near we want it to. Solet's go back to what other
provinces are doing is having itwithin the Ministry of Health in
(11:39):
that same
Mike Gawliuk (11:40):
bucket. And going back to going back to what we've
done historically as well.
Jessica Samuels (11:45):
Okay. So when we look at the stats for B. C.
And some of the other thingsthat just because we're talking
about BC now and and maybe someof the things that weren't
achieved, what are some other BCstats that stood out for you
where we're falling behind?
Mike Gawliuk (12:04):
Well, again, I'd say the big piece is is around
the toxic drug crisis. Right? Iwould reinforce that that
ultimately is something that'svery much BC specific. Mhmm.
It's, and it's something that'sserious and there's something
that we need to to ultimatelydeal with.
One of the other things that wasa concerning perspective was
(12:28):
that, the rates of stigma anddiscrimination, were the highest
in BC, out of Canada, which is,which is cause for concern.
Jessica Samuels (12:40):
Stigma and discrimination as it pertains to
mental health, addiction, andsubstance use? Okay. The highest
in Canada is in BC. Okay.
Mike Gawliuk (12:50):
Interesting. That was that's that's concerning.
Jessica Samuels (12:52):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my next natural question
is why? I I don't know if youhave that answer but
Mike Gawliuk (12:59):
I I don't know if I have that answer. I mean, I
think I can speculate a littlebit. I mean, certainly, what
we've seen in our communities,what we've seen in terms of the
challenges of, you know,decriminalization, substance
use, people that are people thatare unhoused, You know, the
(13:21):
reality is, and I think our mostrecent provincial election
showed us, that there's, thatpeople aren't happy with the way
things are. And so you can seesome of that potentially leading
into that stat. That's that'sone of the, like, the sort of
educated guesses that it wouldmake under the circumstances.
Jessica Samuels (13:44):
Right. So we're talking about some of the issues
that are in B. C. When we talkabout the opioid crisis and the
affordability. You referencingthe recent events in the last
few years, but I just going tobe a bit of a dog with a bone on
this.
And there's some other statsthat are broken out and they
broke out all the stats for allthe provinces so we can see how
Canada fares against otherprovinces and across Canada. But
(14:07):
if we don't have accuratemeasurement for this, for this
province, how do we know thatwhat we did find is accurate?
Was that a circular question?But you know what I mean? Like
on on so explain to me thedifference between what they
(14:28):
couldn't measure and what theydid measure.
Mike Gawliuk (14:31):
Well, what they did measure was a series of
publicly available public healthmeasures. That's how they broke
it down into those fivemeasures. So that's where that
data came from.
Jessica Samuels (14:42):
Okay.
Mike Gawliuk (14:43):
Of course, I can understand your your query as it
were about if we can't say howmuch money has actually been
spent or what percentage hasbeen spent in British Columbia,
then then how is the other datavalid? Mhmm. I mean, this is
this is data that is isconsistent across the study and
publicly available nationally.Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (15:06):
Right. And so some of these other things that
I'm noticing for this provinceas you you mentioned, the
perceived mental health here inBC is is slightly worse or the
percentage is slightly higher.However you want to express that
is poor or fair. Substanceabuse, as we noted, rates of
hospitalization due to selfharm. This this is significantly
(15:28):
higher than the nationalaverage.
So what I have is that in BC,75% versus 65%. Again, this is
an indication, I think,oftentimes, you and I have
talked about and we've talkedabout on this this podcast about
that early intervention andprevention piece. Like, what
what does that tell what doesthat stat lead you to, I don't
(15:53):
want to say assume, but lead youto understand about the people
who are struggling and the pointin time in which they have to
get help.
Mike Gawliuk (16:02):
Well, I I mean, we've talked about this before
and certainly we know that, asignificant percentage of,
mental health mental illnessesshow up in young people under
the age of 25. So you cancertainly read some of that into
it. Mhmm. I would think that,certainly what it shows again is
(16:24):
that the need for a system thatinvests in early intervention,
prevention, treatment, isabsolutely necessary in order to
make those numbers move. And,again, what the overall report
(16:48):
is saying is that there needs tobe more investment in this and
that's at the federal governmentlevel.
Right. Right? And what CMHA isis calling for ultimately is to
set that into law. So ultimatelythen that 12% of funding that
(17:10):
goes to the province must bespent specifically on mental
health and substance useresources and programs.
Jessica Samuels (17:17):
So writing the 12% spend into law or just
increased resources andspending?
Mike Gawliuk (17:23):
No, writing that in
Jessica Samuels (17:25):
Writing it.
Mike Gawliuk (17:25):
So that provinces are specifically held to that
number and to use it,specifically towards mental
health and substance use. Right.Yeah.
Jessica Samuels (17:33):
One of the other interesting factors about
this is the availability andaccess to mental health.
Certainly, we talk about anoverwhelmed system when we're in
a well populated, somewhat urbanarea known as the central
Okanagan. When we look at thenorthern communities and
specifically indigenouscommunities, when you said 38%,
(17:54):
I think off the top of peoples,Indigenous peoples are reporting
that their mental health is partof fair. Is this part and parcel
to the location? Is thisIndigenous folks in northern
communities?
Is this indigenous folks thatare spread across the country
and in all communities?
Mike Gawliuk (18:11):
Well, I I I think certainly what the what the
report speaks to is, certainlyin the north and in in rural
communities, you know, theaccess to services is just
simply not there like it wouldbe in larger urban centers. So,
I mean, that's that's onereality is is, you know, the
(18:34):
ability to get help, isn't isn'tavailable, which obviously is
going to create some challenges.There's no doubt about it. When
it comes to, indigenous people,there's a whole lot more that's
wrapped up in that. Right?
And it goes far beyond whetherthere's access to treatment, but
(18:57):
it's access to culturally safeand culturally competent care.
And that's that needs to beworked on as well.
Jessica Samuels (19:10):
Right. Is this something that is called out
within? So, okay, so let's movethis a little bit forward is
that in the report there aresome recommendations. Let's go
over some of the recommendationsin kind of what they like to
see. So you said obviously that12% spend written into law and
provinces held accountable.
What are some of the otherthings that recommendations that
(19:32):
were made?
Mike Gawliuk (19:35):
So those were 2. One gets back to the social
development or socialdeterminants of health. It comes
back to poverty and it comesback to the fact that people
that are living in poverty aremore likely to struggle with
mental illness. And so, one ofthe one of the calls to
government is to eliminatepoverty, which is a big ask
(19:58):
Yeah. Ultimately.
And that, the other ask is tocollect more and better data to
improve the mental health healthcare system and the mental
health of Canadians.
Jessica Samuels (20:09):
Sound like very robust, recommendations and
broad recommendations. I canonly imagine that the devil will
be in the details for this, andI'm sure this will kind of, eke
and emerge its way out as thisgets delved into, hopefully
delved into, as as we gofurther. So, one thing do we
know I guess, are we sittinghere waiting for a response from
(20:31):
the government? Or, I mean, it'sthe interesting thing with these
reports. So you have theNational Mental Health
Organization saying, this is notgood enough.
We need to do better, And theymake recommendations. And then
it's like, okay, now what?
Mike Gawliuk (20:47):
Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (20:48):
So now we wait. We what do we do?
Mike Gawliuk (20:51):
Well, I think now, we continue to spread the word.
Right? We we need, more peopleto understand this information,
understand this data, you know,to to advocate to government,
for these changes and thatresources be added to the mix. I
think that's one one part that,anybody, ultimately can do.
(21:16):
Right?
This is about advocacy. This isabout making sure that that that
that voice is loud and it'sunderstood that something needs
to happen. Mhmm. Certainly, whatwe've seen, provincially is when
CMHA has taken on advocacyinitiatives and it's come into
(21:42):
elections that many of thosehave been taken up in and by
government. And I think thereport you know, points to a few
of the bright spots.
And some of those bright spotsare the direct result of
advocacy, certainly at aprovincial level. You know, a
(22:04):
few examples listed in thereport are sort of the crisis
carry form that's taken place.And in British Columbia, CMHA
launched and is is in theprocess of growing the PACT
program, which is a crisisresponse team made up of
(22:27):
civilian responders. So a mentalhealth professional teamed with
a peer supporter, and that cameout of the concerns that there
needed to be a differentresponse when it came to crisis
that didn't necessarily need toinvolve, the legal authorities.
It launched in North and WestVan and is now, spread to a
(22:47):
number of other communities inthe province.
Yeah. That's, that's one of thehighlights that this report
brings forward. There's other,there's other examples in
different provinces acrossCanada as well but BC and CMHA
in particular, BC division ledthe way in bringing that
forward.
Jessica Samuels (23:06):
Right. So when you say, love, like law
enforcement officials, we'retalking about the difference be
be between having police respondto incidences that are clearly
related to or due to a mentalhealth crisis and really kind of
changing how that's being done.So, you know, it's it's it's a
(23:26):
highlight. It's a it's aspotlight that was outlined in
this report. It must be showingthat this is doing well in in
North Van and Vancouver.
Mike Gawliuk (23:35):
Yeah. So it it originated in North and West
Vancouver and it spread to anumber of other communities.
It's showing a significantdifference. Right? The dynamic
that changes when it's a trainedmental health professional, and
a and a and a peer supportworker who understands what's
going on, are more likely tohave an effective response,
(23:58):
within that.
So it's definitely somethingthat, got off the ground and
because of the outcomes withthat program has has begun to
grown throughout the province.Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (24:09):
Is this something then that we would
hope? Would you like to do thishere in Kelowna? And
specifically would CMHA Kelownalike to do this?
Mike Gawliuk (24:18):
So, I mean, certainly I've as have a number
of other organizations been partof the Kelowna Public Safety
Plan. There's a specific actionitem towards a civilian crisis
response team and there havebeen ongoing conversations
around how, we're going to beable to bring PACT to Kelowna.
(24:39):
Would CMHA, be interested inplaying a role in that? 100% in
partnership, with themunicipality along with our
other service delivery partners.We we have a keen interest in
that and I would suggest basedon what we know in our
community, a significant need inthis community for that service.
(25:01):
Mhmm.
Jessica Samuels (25:02):
Right. One of the other spotlights that came
through this this pockets ofinnovation is what they're
calling it in the report is,another one of those is the
housing investment. So CMHAColon is a housing provider,
significant housing provider,both supportive and affordable
housing, different types ofhousing in this community. And
(25:24):
up to this point, here's anexample of of of our province
actually doing a lot in thisarea. And please correct me if
I'm wrong.
But then recently, the budgetshave shown that it's not
necessarily going to there's notgoing to be any extra spend in
this area. Now now fact check meon that, but we've got that and
(25:47):
then we've got the call fromCMHA National to say we have to
end poverty, we have to endhomelessness when we've got
provinces already doing it.Know, this feels like it's gonna
be a long way off to achieve.
Mike Gawliuk (25:59):
Well, I think I I mean, certainly provincially,
there's been significantinvestments into housing, which
includes affordable housing. Itit includes support of, housing.
It's included, investment intothe rental protection fund,
which is a fund that allowsnonprofits to acquire older
(26:19):
properties that are at risk of,renoviction and redevelopment
and to be able to keep themaffordable and then potentially
redevelop them themselves. Sothere's there's been a lot of
investment in to housing.There's certainly been a lot of
legislative changes as wellaround housing, to ensure that
more of it can get built.
Certainly knowing that, that's alot of can get built. Certainly
(26:42):
knowing that that was a key partof the most recent election, the
commitment to continue to moveforward in building affordable
housing and I just returned fromthe BC Nonprofit Housing
Association, annual conference.Certainly, it's it's about
putting the the the foot on thegas, not on the brakes. And not
(27:06):
only recognizing the need, butthe many different ways that
housing can get built and helpto address some of those
affordability issues.
Jessica Samuels (27:16):
To put you under the spot once again. So if
we have a province that hasspent significant dollars and
paid attention and advocacytowards, addressing the
homelessness and affordablehousing issue in our province,
and yet we are still so far offthe mark, What's the case to
continue along this course,understanding that we need more,
(27:42):
but are we getting there? Are wemaking a difference? Are we
making a dent in what we havedone so far?
Mike Gawliuk (27:47):
Yeah. Well, I mean, the reality of the
situation is this this thisdidn't just happen one night.
Mhmm. Right? Like, one day allof a sudden these these housing
issues showed up.
Right? And it and it does goback to the federal government
and getting out of the businessof affordable housing. So the
(28:09):
reality is that across thecountry part of it is that we're
playing catch up ultimately forfor all those years where there
wasn't investment. Right? Mhmm.
And so to suggest that, youknow, what's been done over the
course of the last few years isgoing to be, sufficient, and
(28:32):
adequate to help get us to theplace where we need to be,
certainly isn't the case. Thereneeds to be more as more
projects come online and youstart to see these elements.
Certainly, we'll see adifference. The reality is that,
(28:52):
non market housing, which isultimately going to be
subsidized through government isabsolutely essential. The
private market can't build tothe same level of non market
that non profits can.
And so the reality is there'sgoing to be a need for those
funds to allow for affordablehousing for people that are in
(29:17):
deep need to be able to have aroof over their head.
Jessica Samuels (29:20):
I go back to the comment you made earlier
about the snowball effect.There's also the, I often think
of it as as the things we aredoing today are addressing the
issues of the day today. Asthings continue to be more
unaffordable, that issue isgoing to snowball in terms of
and it's going to fall out inthe housing affordability. We've
(29:43):
talked about this many times. Sothe state of the number of folks
who can afford their homes todaywould clearly it's different
than it was a couple of yearsago and might be different than
a couple of years from now.
And then you have other folkswho need, you have seniors with
fixed income. We have an agentpopulation here. So that's
always interesting to me aswell. I was playing a little
devil's advocate there thatfolks are talking about a
(30:05):
situation. It's not a staticissue.
This issue is changing due tofactors that have nothing to do
with housing. Right? But housingis one of the effects it all.
Mike Gawliuk (30:19):
For sure. I mean, at the same conference the BC
seniors advocate spoke andreally spoke to the reality of,
you know, some of the some ofthe income levels for seniors in
this province and it's scary.Like, the ability for some
seniors to be able to afford aroof over their head. We're I
(30:43):
mean, what it feels for like thefirst time, at least in my
experience, you know, we'reactually seeing seniors falling
into homelessness because theycan't afford to have the roof
over their head. That's that'sconcerning.
Right? And it's a function ofall of these other factors that
(31:04):
intersect and, and pile up onone another. And it's why one
simple solution to all of theseissues does not exist.
Ultimately, we're dealing withcomplex challenges, and we need
(31:24):
to look at investment that isnot just about this is the
answer. Mhmm.
Realistically, this is theanswer. This is the answer. Some
of that is the answer. And thensome of the answers, we don't
yet know. Mhmm.
But I can tell you anytime whenthere's just the silver bullet,
this is the thing that's goingto fix it all. Mhmm. We usually
(31:48):
end up and find ourselves alittle bit disappointed. Mhmm.
So, that investment and thisincludes mental health, it's
it's an investment in all ofthose areas.
Like I said, prevention, earlyintervention, treatment,
certainly community mentalhealth services like those that
are delivered by CMHA,absolutely essential in order to
(32:12):
continue to move things forward.Because if we don't, I'm
concerned about what this reportcould look like 2, 4, 6, 8 years
from now. It's, it's essential.
Jessica Samuels (32:28):
Yeah. I was going to ask you as we wrap up
here. So so we've talked aboutkind of the facts, the stat
facts, the white paper facts ofwhat this shows As a human, as
the, you know, the head of CMHAKelowna, someone who's been in
this sector for so long, how doyou feel when you read this? You
(32:49):
see that headline like mentalhealth is substantially worse
than It's not surprising like Imean you can just take a look
around,
Mike Gawliuk (33:06):
you can you can have a chat with your friends
like people people ultimatelyare struggling. That being said
again these pockets ofinnovation or pockets of hope
allow us to have some optimismthat actually there are things
(33:27):
that can be done, that there aredifferent things that can be put
in place that do have an impact.Certainly for me, if I felt like
there was no way forward, wellwe certainly wouldn't have this
podcast ultimately. Yeah. Andand and and certainly, I
(33:47):
wouldn't be here.
Mhmm. This is this is why we dothe work that we do. This is why
CMHA is not only a servicedelivery organization, but
certainly an advocacyorganization as well because, we
want to and we need to influencechange in order for people to
(34:09):
get the help that they need.
Jessica Samuels (34:10):
Well, I'm I'm grateful for your hope and the
innovation that goes on at CMHAclone and all the CMHAs and the
organizations in our city.There's a lot of organizations
that are just in there doingthis gritty, gritty work. And
when you when you see reportslike this and and I hope that
that folks would understand, yousee reports like that, you, you
(34:32):
wouldn't kind of fall prey to,to my devil's advocate moment
that I had a few moments ago andrecognize this is, there's no
easy button as a good friend ofours like, likes to say,
especially when it comes to
Mike Gawliuk (34:42):
this. Absolutely.
Jessica Samuels (34:43):
Thank you for that. Thank you to our sponsors,
Bean Credit Union, forsponsoring this podcast so that
we can have these discussionsand
Mike Gawliuk (34:50):
show
Jessica Samuels (34:51):
people that there really is a way forward.
We covered a ton of data.There's a ton of data we didn't
cover, and we're gonna put thefull, state of mental health, in
Canada report on the CMHAkalona.org website. Thank you so
much, Mike.
Mike Gawliuk (35:05):
Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (35:06):
Beam Credit Union is proud to be a part of
communities all across BC withover 50 branches and insurance
offices dedicated to supportingyour financial journey. Beam
understands financial wellnessmeans something different to
everyone, and they're here tohelp you achieve your unique
goals. Whether you're saving forthe future, planning your next
big step or just looking forpeace of mind, Beam Credit Union
(35:29):
is by your side. GFCU Savings,Gulf and Fraser, Interior
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Union.
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