December 18, 2024 • 24 mins
In Episode 7 of A Way Forward: Conversations on Mental Health, presented by Beem Credit Union, host Jessica Samuels sits down with CMHA Kelowna CEO, Mike Gawliuk to dive into the topic of loneliness—what it truly means, how it impacts us, and strategies to address it. They explore how loneliness isn’t just about being alone but can also occur within social groups where people feel disconnected. They also discuss its severe physical and mental health consequences, such as heightened risk of heart problems, depression, and even a shortened lifespan.
The episode touches on loneliness in various contexts, including among seniors, Indigenous and LGBTQ+ populations, and the workplace. They also tackle the role of technology in fostering a false sense of connection and the lingering effects of the COVID-19 pandemic on our social lives. Mike emphasizes the importance of addressing loneliness as a societal issue and offers practical solutions, from building real-world connections to organizational strategies for fostering a culture of connection in the workplace.
Key Discussion Points:
- Defining Loneliness:
- Loneliness is more than being alone; it’s an emotional experience tied to unmet needs in relationships.
- People can feel lonely even when surrounded by others if they lack meaningful connections.
- Health Impacts:
- Loneliness has been equated to smoking 15 cigarettes a day in terms of its effect on health.
- Physical consequences include increased blood pressure, heart problems, and a shorter lifespan.
- Mental health risks include anxiety, depression, and a negative impact on overall well-being.
- Groups at Higher Risk:
- Indigenous seniors: Impacted by racism, poverty, and historical oppression.
- LGBTQ+ individuals: More likely to live alone or experience social isolation.
- Workplace environments: Employees may feel lonely despite being physically surrounded by colleagues.
- The Role of Technology:
- Social media and digital interactions can create a perception of connection but often lack depth.
- Comparisons on social media can amplify feelings of isolation and inadequacy.
- Loneliness and the Pandemic:
- COVID-19 amplified loneliness through enforced social isolation.
- The long-term societal impacts are still being studied.
- Workplace Loneliness:
- Returning to the office doesn’t necessarily reduce loneliness.
- Building a culture of connection is essential, including socialization opportunities and understanding employees’ needs.
- Addressing Loneliness Through Connection:
- Strategies for individuals:
- Find community through shared interests or volunteering.
- Reconnect with family and friends beyond digital interactions.
- Strategies for organizations:
- Measure loneliness through surveys to identify and address gaps.
- Foster a culture of connection with meaningful social activities.
- Strategies for individuals:
- Navigating Grief-Related Loneliness:
- Avoid self-imposed expectations about how grief should look.
- Accept support, engage in activities, and avoid prolonged isolation.
- Consider professional counseling for additional support.
Actionable Takeaways:
- For Individuals: Build connections through community activities, shared interests, or volunteering. Avoid relying solely on digital interactions for connection.
- For Organizations: Prioritize creating a workplace culture of connection and measure loneliness among employees to tailor interventions.
- For All: Recognize loneliness as
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Samuels (00:00):
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to
episode 7 of A Way Forwardpodcast presented by Bean Credit
Union. Today's discussion istaking place on the traditional,
ancestral, and unceded lands ofthe Okanagan Sillux people. This
episode, CMHA Kelowna CEO, MikeGolick, joins me, and we talk
about loneliness and how, if itgoes unaddressed, it can lead to
(00:24):
some serious health issues.Thanks for being here, Mike.
I think it's important for usright off the top top to discuss
what is loneliness because it'sactually not just or it's more
than just simply being alone.
Mike Gawliuk (00:44):
Yes. So loneliness, one of the
definitions is an emotionalexperience that means our
current close relationshipsdon't meet our our needs. And so
ultimately, it isn't just aboutbeing alone. It can mean, again,
you've got you're in a you're ina circle, people, and you don't
(01:08):
feel like you fit in. That canbring on a sense of loneliness.
You've got a circle ofconnections where you're not
necessarily getting the supportand the connection that you
want, and that can ultimately,you know, result in in feelings
of loneliness. Mhmm. Through theloss, you know, of a loved one
(01:30):
or or a friend, certainly thatcan bring on loneliness. And
then absolutely, there are caseswhere, a person is alone and and
wants to be with other people,where there's that, emotional
experience of loneliness. So Ithink to to to equate loneliness
(01:50):
with being alone, doesn't do theterm, the justice that that it
needs for people to trulyappreciate and understand it.
Jessica Samuels (01:59):
That's right. And and also to and we'll delve
into some of the significantimpacts that it has in your life
and and how to address them withkind of those different
scenarios you were talkingabout. I did also just read a
really interesting article. Ithink I sent it over to you. It
was quite surprising to me.
I think it was Harvard BusinessReview, talking about loneliness
in the workplace, which I waslike, okay, this is interesting.
(02:23):
And also thank you, HarvardBusiness Review, for your timely
article. But it was interestingto me because I always
associated being aware ofsignificant loneliness for folks
who are isolated, who had lost aloved one or seniors as well,
like folks who had somethingsignificant in their life happen
(02:44):
or didn't have access to largersupport groups. But it seems to
me like we're hearing it more.Is loneliness on the rise or is
it one of those things thatwe're talking about it more so
we're aware of it more?
Mike Gawliuk (02:58):
Well, I I think we're aware of it more, but
certainly, it's it's beenreferenced as as an epidemic.
So, yeah, that's, like, that'sabsolutely a concern. And, and
the the World Health Associationin 2023 called it a pressing
global threat. That's that's howmajor this is. And I think, as
(03:19):
we'll get into it and we speakto it, it's certainly the impact
that loneliness can have on usphysically and, the damaging
effect that it can ultimatelyhave.
And, one one article that I waslooking at is was doing reach
for research for this comparedloneliness to the equivalent
(03:42):
equivalent of smoking 15cigarettes a day.
Jessica Samuels (03:46):
What? Wow. Yeah. Really?
Mike Gawliuk (03:48):
Yeah. This really. And the impact on, the
loneliness impact on someone'sphysical health, from increases
in blood pressure to heartproblems, to certainly mental
health issues like depressionand anxiety and ultimately
death. Like, it is serious andit's a concern.
Jessica Samuels (04:08):
So physiological symptoms in the
moment, in the person at thetime, and then also what I'm
hearing is shortened lifespan?
Mike Gawliuk (04:15):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (04:15):
Oh, gosh. Wow. Okay. Well, good thing we're
talking about it. I mean, andand sorry, like, I and
obviously, it's a serious topic.
But when you put it in thoseterms, you know, we always
relate it to that smokecigarettes a day kind of terms.
I think it really talks aboutthe seriousness, of the
(04:35):
condition. It's not justsomebody's it's not just the
feelings, right? Like,obviously, feeling lonely is how
we describe it. But there's moregoing on in the body if you're
going to have this very physicalreaction.
So we're and we talked aboutseniors, are there other groups
that tend to experienceloneliness? We're all
experiencing or we can allexperience it, but are there
(04:58):
kind of groups that are impactedmore?
Mike Gawliuk (04:59):
Well, in looking at some of the information in
in, preparation for this, oneone group that was identified is
indigenous seniors, and, part ofthat has to do with racism,
potentially marginalization dueto language, poverty, and of
(05:21):
course, negative, historicalexperience, and and the reality
that the oppression ofindigenous peoples, and their
cultures, place people at higherrisk for loneliness.
Jessica Samuels (05:35):
Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk (05:36):
We look at, LGBTQ people, who are at higher risk
for loneliness when compared totheir heterosexual peers.
Certainly, sexual minorities aremore likely to be living alone,
maybe not have children, haveless contact with their family
Jessica Samuels (05:56):
and,
Mike Gawliuk (05:57):
maybe at greater risk of social isolation.
Jessica Samuels (06:01):
Right. I go back to that. You're talking
about the different types ofloneliness and when you said,
well, you're you might be aroundpeople or have the ability to be
around people, but you don'tquite fit in. You don't. You're
not getting that sense ofconnection from the people who
are around you.
And that's what popped up to mewhen you identified those last
two groups. Why does it feellike this is such a paradox? We
(06:27):
are in a time where we aresupposed to be so connected. You
know, I was just I was you wereaway for a week, I was just away
in a different country, in thesouth, and you're still texting
in real time, you're answeringemails in real time when you
can. I'm FaceTiming with my myhusband to show him where I was
(06:48):
staying and the beautifulsunset.
We're supposed to be soconnected, yet you said that
this is being described as anepidemic.
Mike Gawliuk (06:55):
Yeah. Well, and I mean, just prior to this, you
said I just got 28 texts.
Jessica Samuels (07:00):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I did.
I kind of was alarmed.
Mike Gawliuk (07:04):
As an example, you you know, the reality is I think
technology can give us theperception of connectedness.
Mhmm. Right? Versus beingtogether. Mhmm.
Right? I think there's there'salso the reality from from a
(07:25):
loneliness perspective of socialmedia and and, and we had talked
about this, in a previousepisode around the notion of
comparison. Right? And so, youknow, when you're looking at
social media and you're seeingwhoever it is living that
perfect life and, you compareyourself to that. And,
(07:48):
ultimately, when you're makingthe comparison, you're always
comparing what you see to be,you know, the worst parts of you
to the best parts, of of them.
Jessica Samuels (07:58):
Right. So that can kind of force you to isolate
yourself even more. Like, youdon't live up. I I can't
compete. I'm not good enough.
I don't connect with thatparticular group. It it kind of
becomes can become selfperpetuating.
Mike Gawliuk (08:11):
Yeah. Well and and and how many friends can you
have ultimately? I think I thinkone of the things I was reading
about, like, put it in Facebookterms for for every 150 Facebook
friends, that average is 4actual real friends that might
be there for you when you're,when you're in need. Right? So,
(08:33):
yeah, certainly, we've got ourwe've got technology.
We've got it, right in front ofus, and it gives the sense of
connection. But, you know, thereality is real connection is is
way more than that. And sotechnology can contribute
actually to a sense ofloneliness.
Jessica Samuels (08:52):
Right. Not that I wanna blame everything on, you
know, that little thing thathappened in 2020 and 2021 and
2022. But, what do we stillunderstand the effects of COVID
nineteen, and the pandemic havehad on us and how that
contributed to the sense ofloneliness?
Mike Gawliuk (09:12):
I think I I mean, there there is some there's
ongoing research that's takingplace as it pertains to, the
pandemic and loneliness. And,certainly, during the pandemic,
people's experience ofloneliness. I mean, again, when
you're looking at, you know, a apublic health emergency and the
(09:33):
response to that is socialisolation, The reality is you're
gonna you're gonna have someexperience of, of loneliness.
But, in terms of the broadersocietal impact of the pandemic
subsequent Mhmm. That researchis still taking place.
(09:54):
Mhmm. We don't ultimately haveall the answers at this point in
time. So at at a time in a placeback to those that that time,
and I certainly remember thosetimes, Definitely, that was the
case, especially, again, incases where people were maybe
living on their own and and yourconnection point was through the
(10:15):
technology of the rest of it. Wedon't have a good sense, I would
say, at this point in time as tothe, the longer term impacts of
the pandemic as it applies toloneliness, and and other
factors.
Jessica Samuels (10:28):
Right. Exactly. Okay. And that it makes sense on
kind of ongoing. And I think we,you know, we recently talked
about the, report on the stateof mental health in Canada, and
it's getting worse as we getfurther out from the pandemic.
So I, I kind of understand thatpoint you're making about this
is going to be kind of emergingand to be looked at, and the new
(10:48):
areas of loneliness. So thisHarvard Business Review article,
the, I was scrolling on LinkedInand, because, you know, to feel
connected to the world. No, justkidding. And I read, at
QuickGlutz the title, and itsays, we're still lonely at
work. And it caught me and I waslike, ah, this is really
interesting.
And I had all kinds of thoughtsthat were going through my head.
(11:11):
So, what's really interesting tome in this is that is that, you
know, I I do have a full timejob, I am a business owner, we
actually sell office furniture.So we're very embedded in the
understanding of the return tooffice RTO and the WFH work from
home, because obviously thatthat could financially impact
(11:34):
what I do in my day job as abusiness owner. So when I read
this title, that's what I wentto I thought, oh, okay, this is
going to be another articleabout work from home and return
to work and hybrid models andplus plus plus but it really
wasn't that at all. And in fact,it actually points out that,
(11:55):
being in the office was not thecure by itself to loneliness at
work.
And that was kind of like, wait,what? And it kind of goes back
to what you were saying beforeabout being around people. So
being at work, it doesn'tnecessarily solve the problem at
loneliness at work. So why arewe lonely at
Mike Gawliuk (12:15):
work? Well, first of all, thanks for sharing the
article. Yeah. Yeah. Because asa mental health organization,
certainly one of the thingsthat, we we focus significant
energy on is is the the mentalhealth of, of our workforce.
And, and and there's somereminders in there. Right? I
think, again, it breaks it downto, to some of the myths. And,
(12:38):
one of the myths is that, like,loneliness is a is a a personal
problem, not an organizationalproblem.
Jessica Samuels (12:45):
Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk (12:46):
And to your point that by returning to the office
and doing in person work, that'sgoing to be the thing that's
going to make all the differencein the world when when in fact,
that's not the case. Certainly,what the article talks about,
first of all, is is making it apriority. They actually suggest
(13:08):
measuring loneliness in theworkplace to get a sense of what
that looks like and and and andwhat's happening there. And this
term is going to come up againand again and again as we have
our conversations, but they talkabout building a culture of
connection. Right?
And so, you know, buildingsocialization into the rhythm of
(13:32):
work and being able to spendtime together and and have
social activities and maximize,work opportunities to enhance
that sense of connection Mhmm.As some of the strategies that
need to be considered, to helpaddress loneliness in the
(13:56):
workplace.
Jessica Samuels (13:57):
Mhmm. And I can imagine that we would have to go
back to the the reasons why whythe individual is is feeling
lonely in the workplace. I mean,and and to to kind of pile on to
something that you see, like apizza party is not going to
solve a problem for anindividual who's feeling lonely
at work because they don't fitin with their peers. And I'm
(14:17):
overly simplifying, but I wouldjust like folks to have that
takeaway, to say that it's it'snot a staff. A staff party alone
is not gonna solve this.
Mike Gawliuk (14:28):
Yeah. I would suggest, ultimately, and again,
from what I've read and in in myexperience is, like, you've got
to come to a true understandingof what's taking place. Mhmm.
Like, there's all the things youcan do to, you know, tick the
boxes. So, yeah, a pizza partyis is what it is.
Jessica Samuels (14:43):
Yeah.
Mike Gawliuk (14:44):
I think the the opportunity for people to get
together and connect would bewhat's underneath that, and
that's ultimately the case.Right?
Jessica Samuels (14:54):
Right.
Mike Gawliuk (14:55):
But it goes beyond tick boxes and the things that
we think that we should do tohaving really a good
understanding of ourorganizations, having a good
understanding of the peoplewithin our organizations. And
then what are the things thatultimately organizations can do
to support, you know, ultimatelyorganizations can do to support,
you know, building that cultureof connection, providing those
opportunities for for thosethings to happen. You mentioned
that one of the ways to addressthis in the workplace was
(15:17):
measuring it.
Jessica Samuels (15:23):
You know, are are you talking about, like, a
survey or a questionnaire? Like,I know that, CMHA Kelowna does,
the Guarding Minds, I believe,or has in the past. Is it are
you talking about something likethat that measures the
psychological well-being of ofof staff in the workplace?
Mike Gawliuk (15:39):
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, that's what that's
ultimately what I'm talkingabout. And and the the use of a
anonymized survey to get a senseof what that looks like then
allows organizations ultimatelyand what we would look to do to
then, see what we're doing well,seeing what ultimately people
need, and then moving forwardwith trying to implement some of
(16:02):
those things. Right?
Jessica Samuels (16:03):
Right. Yeah. So solutions for loneliness in the
workplace. Let's let's keepgoing forward with solutions
here and let's have a littlediscussion about individuals who
are experiencing loneliness dueto loss of a loved one or a
significant figure in theirlives. You know, grief, grief is
a complex issue.
(16:24):
And so how, what are somesuggested ways that perhaps
folks can manage theirloneliness due to that?
Mike Gawliuk (16:32):
Yeah. Certainly grief and loss that we've
touched on. I I mean, I thinkthat's a very, very human
experience. Right? Mhmm.
One of the things that they say,first thing is that, don't
should all over yourself. Mhmm.The reality is grief is going to
look different for, everyperson. And so not to put
(16:55):
expectations, on your grief andthink about how you should and
should not feel. You caneverybody's grief is unique,
ultimately, and how each personapproaches grief will differ.
Mhmm. Certainly, some of theother pieces is letting others
(17:17):
that offer to help and support,allowing people into your world
and and allowing that to happen.Mhmm. Finding and giving your
yourself things to do, whateverthat might look like. And that
goes hand in hand in hand with,avoiding isolation.
(17:41):
So maybe tending maybe the lastthing you're gonna wanna do is
attend a social event oranything like that. That tends
to build on itself. Right? It bebecomes a self fulfilling
prophecy. So some of thesuggestions are, like, when
there's an opportunity for asocial connection, If it's a
social event, that piece, go,but maybe you drive drive
(18:06):
yourself to the event and and,you know, you're there for a bit
and then leave.
But certainly, socializing,trying to build connections,
engaging is are some of the waysthat that people can deal with
grief. And I mean, ultimately,depending on, the level of grief
(18:27):
and, how people are managing,certainly, there would recommend
and encourage, you know,counseling as well to help
support people through that.
Jessica Samuels (18:38):
Right. Right. Because if if if your loneliness
feeling lonely due to grief,part of it would be managing the
grief component of it. Andhopefully the loneliness would
would come alongside that aswell. And and, you know, it's
hard to offer suggestions tofolks for, you know, in
(19:00):
different perspectives of of whythey perhaps might be feeling
lonely.
I mean, I don't know. I've neverhad an well, I shouldn't say
that. I was gonna say I've neverhad an experience that I that I
didn't feel like I I fit in,that I wasn't able to kind of
readily manage within a shortamount of time. But, you know,
when we talk about people whoare feeling lonely because they
(19:20):
don't fit in or they don't havethat supporting connections,
ultimately, yes, it sounds likebuilding the connections and the
support is the way to go. But Iwould imagine that part of the
reason why that is absent intheir life is that they do not
know how to go about doing it.
Mike Gawliuk (19:36):
Sure. I mean, ultimately, that's that's that's
highly likely that they don'tknow how to go about doing it.
Mhmm. I one of the things thatwas talked about in terms of,
addressing that is a,understanding the reasons why
you feel lonely. When we talkabout social connection, one of
(19:57):
the one of the terms that wasused was to to be strategic.
So everybody's got their owninterests. Right? So whether or
not, you know, you're intosports or another activity, like
using that interest to thenpotentially, build connections.
(20:19):
So maybe you join a maybe youjoin a sports league, something
like that. Things that alignwith ultimately what you enjoy
and what you like.
It can be little steps. Right?So again, in where there's a
close connection that you have,even if you have a decent
(20:41):
connections with your with yourfamily, trying to reach out, on
a more regular basis. And thatmight mean picking up the phone
and having a phone call versus,again, sending a text message or
getting lost in the world of thethe make believe connection
(21:01):
sometimes that technology canbe. And sometimes, and and
certainly what's encouraged aswell is to, get involved in your
community, the potential ofvolunteering.
Right? So for example, and itsounds simple, but, you know, if
(21:24):
you're an animal lover, there'smaybe opportunities to go and
volunteer at a place like theSPCA, something along those
lines. Getting to know yourneighbors can be one way, to
just sort of to start to crackthat door open a little bit.
Jessica Samuels (21:42):
Like so much of what we talk about here on Mike,
this is a complex issue, Andthere's no easy thing that is
going to solve it. But it'ssomething that we have to pay
attention to, or else we willhave some very serious health
ramifications and mental healthramifications. So ultimately,
when it comes to loneliness,what is your suggestion? How how
(22:02):
do we as individuals address itand how we can how can we
support others in our life whowe may think, might be
experiencing this?
Mike Gawliuk (22:13):
I mean, I think the big message, is that human
beings are hardwired forconnection.
Jessica Samuels (22:20):
Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk (22:20):
They're hardwired for, social activity. And, you
know, in thinking about that, itit comes back to this thing,
about the notion of communityand connection and how important
(22:42):
that is in terms of addressingloneliness, how important that
is overall in addressing mentalhealth. And, earlier this week,
I was at a at a session, at aconference I attended, and there
was a gentleman there by thename of, Guy Felicella. And he's
(23:07):
fairly well known in the in theprovince and in Canada as
someone who has struggled withsubstance use, spent 20 years on
the downtown east side, is opento telling a story around the
number of overdoses, involvementwith the criminal justice
(23:27):
system, what it was like to be,unhoused. And for him, what made
the difference and the term thathe used is that ultimately when
it comes to, people, humanconnection can change direction
(23:49):
And ultimately, that's part ofthe way forward.
Jessica Samuels (23:53):
Wow. Powerful statement to think we will leave
it there. We do have a number ofresources I know that that you
pulled from and I pulled from inorder to have this discussion.
We're gonna list them on thewebsite on the Away Forward
podcast page presented by BeamCredit Union, because what's
going to be right for people,the human connection, but in
what shape or form that comesin, it's going to be different
(24:15):
for each individual. So we'llmake sure that we get those on
the page and hopefully, somefolks can really find a way
forward in that regard.
Mike, thank you so much forjoining me.
Mike Gawliuk (24:24):
Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (24:26):
Beam Credit Union is proud to be a part of
communities all across B. C.With over 50 branches and
insurance offices dedicated tosupporting your financial
journey. Beam understandsfinancial wellness means
something different to everyone,and they're here to help you
achieve your unique goals.Whether you're saving for the
future, planning your next bigstep or just looking for peace
(24:46):
of mind, Beam Credit Union is byyour side.
GFCU Savings, Gulf and Fraser,Interior Savings and North Peace
Savings are trade names of BeamCredit Union.
Hello. I'm Jessica Samuels, and welcome to
episode 7 of A Way Forwardpodcast presented by Bean Credit
Union. Today's discussion istaking place on the traditional,
ancestral, and unceded lands ofthe Okanagan Sillux people. This
episode, CMHA Kelowna CEO, MikeGolick, joins me, and we talk
about loneliness and how, if itgoes unaddressed, it can lead to
(00:24):
some serious health issues.Thanks for being here, Mike.
I think it's important for usright off the top top to discuss
what is loneliness because it'sactually not just or it's more
than just simply being alone.
Mike Gawliuk (00:44):
Yes. So loneliness, one of the
definitions is an emotionalexperience that means our
current close relationshipsdon't meet our our needs. And so
ultimately, it isn't just aboutbeing alone. It can mean, again,
you've got you're in a you're ina circle, people, and you don't
(01:08):
feel like you fit in. That canbring on a sense of loneliness.
You've got a circle ofconnections where you're not
necessarily getting the supportand the connection that you
want, and that can ultimately,you know, result in in feelings
of loneliness. Mhmm. Through theloss, you know, of a loved one
(01:30):
or or a friend, certainly thatcan bring on loneliness. And
then absolutely, there are caseswhere, a person is alone and and
wants to be with other people,where there's that, emotional
experience of loneliness. So Ithink to to to equate loneliness
(01:50):
with being alone, doesn't do theterm, the justice that that it
needs for people to trulyappreciate and understand it.
Jessica Samuels (01:59):
That's right. And and also to and we'll delve
into some of the significantimpacts that it has in your life
and and how to address them withkind of those different
scenarios you were talkingabout. I did also just read a
really interesting article. Ithink I sent it over to you. It
was quite surprising to me.
I think it was Harvard BusinessReview, talking about loneliness
in the workplace, which I waslike, okay, this is interesting.
(02:23):
And also thank you, HarvardBusiness Review, for your timely
article. But it was interestingto me because I always
associated being aware ofsignificant loneliness for folks
who are isolated, who had lost aloved one or seniors as well,
like folks who had somethingsignificant in their life happen
(02:44):
or didn't have access to largersupport groups. But it seems to
me like we're hearing it more.Is loneliness on the rise or is
it one of those things thatwe're talking about it more so
we're aware of it more?
Mike Gawliuk (02:58):
Well, I I think we're aware of it more, but
certainly, it's it's beenreferenced as as an epidemic.
So, yeah, that's, like, that'sabsolutely a concern. And, and
the the World Health Associationin 2023 called it a pressing
global threat. That's that's howmajor this is. And I think, as
(03:19):
we'll get into it and we speakto it, it's certainly the impact
that loneliness can have on usphysically and, the damaging
effect that it can ultimatelyhave.
And, one one article that I waslooking at is was doing reach
for research for this comparedloneliness to the equivalent
(03:42):
equivalent of smoking 15cigarettes a day.
Jessica Samuels (03:46):
What? Wow. Yeah. Really?
Mike Gawliuk (03:48):
Yeah. This really. And the impact on, the
loneliness impact on someone'sphysical health, from increases
in blood pressure to heartproblems, to certainly mental
health issues like depressionand anxiety and ultimately
death. Like, it is serious andit's a concern.
Jessica Samuels (04:08):
So physiological symptoms in the
moment, in the person at thetime, and then also what I'm
hearing is shortened lifespan?
Mike Gawliuk (04:15):
Yes.
Jessica Samuels (04:15):
Oh, gosh. Wow. Okay. Well, good thing we're
talking about it. I mean, andand sorry, like, I and
obviously, it's a serious topic.
But when you put it in thoseterms, you know, we always
relate it to that smokecigarettes a day kind of terms.
I think it really talks aboutthe seriousness, of the
(04:35):
condition. It's not justsomebody's it's not just the
feelings, right? Like,obviously, feeling lonely is how
we describe it. But there's moregoing on in the body if you're
going to have this very physicalreaction.
So we're and we talked aboutseniors, are there other groups
that tend to experienceloneliness? We're all
experiencing or we can allexperience it, but are there
(04:58):
kind of groups that are impactedmore?
Mike Gawliuk (04:59):
Well, in looking at some of the information in
in, preparation for this, oneone group that was identified is
indigenous seniors, and, part ofthat has to do with racism,
potentially marginalization dueto language, poverty, and of
(05:21):
course, negative, historicalexperience, and and the reality
that the oppression ofindigenous peoples, and their
cultures, place people at higherrisk for loneliness.
Jessica Samuels (05:35):
Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk (05:36):
We look at, LGBTQ people, who are at higher risk
for loneliness when compared totheir heterosexual peers.
Certainly, sexual minorities aremore likely to be living alone,
maybe not have children, haveless contact with their family
Jessica Samuels (05:56):
and,
Mike Gawliuk (05:57):
maybe at greater risk of social isolation.
Jessica Samuels (06:01):
Right. I go back to that. You're talking
about the different types ofloneliness and when you said,
well, you're you might be aroundpeople or have the ability to be
around people, but you don'tquite fit in. You don't. You're
not getting that sense ofconnection from the people who
are around you.
And that's what popped up to mewhen you identified those last
two groups. Why does it feellike this is such a paradox? We
(06:27):
are in a time where we aresupposed to be so connected. You
know, I was just I was you wereaway for a week, I was just away
in a different country, in thesouth, and you're still texting
in real time, you're answeringemails in real time when you
can. I'm FaceTiming with my myhusband to show him where I was
(06:48):
staying and the beautifulsunset.
We're supposed to be soconnected, yet you said that
this is being described as anepidemic.
Mike Gawliuk (06:55):
Yeah. Well, and I mean, just prior to this, you
said I just got 28 texts.
Jessica Samuels (07:00):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I did.
I kind of was alarmed.
Mike Gawliuk (07:04):
As an example, you you know, the reality is I think
technology can give us theperception of connectedness.
Mhmm. Right? Versus beingtogether. Mhmm.
Right? I think there's there'salso the reality from from a
(07:25):
loneliness perspective of socialmedia and and, and we had talked
about this, in a previousepisode around the notion of
comparison. Right? And so, youknow, when you're looking at
social media and you're seeingwhoever it is living that
perfect life and, you compareyourself to that. And,
(07:48):
ultimately, when you're makingthe comparison, you're always
comparing what you see to be,you know, the worst parts of you
to the best parts, of of them.
Jessica Samuels (07:58):
Right. So that can kind of force you to isolate
yourself even more. Like, youdon't live up. I I can't
compete. I'm not good enough.
I don't connect with thatparticular group. It it kind of
becomes can become selfperpetuating.
Mike Gawliuk (08:11):
Yeah. Well and and and how many friends can you
have ultimately? I think I thinkone of the things I was reading
about, like, put it in Facebookterms for for every 150 Facebook
friends, that average is 4actual real friends that might
be there for you when you're,when you're in need. Right? So,
(08:33):
yeah, certainly, we've got ourwe've got technology.
We've got it, right in front ofus, and it gives the sense of
connection. But, you know, thereality is real connection is is
way more than that. And sotechnology can contribute
actually to a sense ofloneliness.
Jessica Samuels (08:52):
Right. Not that I wanna blame everything on, you
know, that little thing thathappened in 2020 and 2021 and
2022. But, what do we stillunderstand the effects of COVID
nineteen, and the pandemic havehad on us and how that
contributed to the sense ofloneliness?
Mike Gawliuk (09:12):
I think I I mean, there there is some there's
ongoing research that's takingplace as it pertains to, the
pandemic and loneliness. And,certainly, during the pandemic,
people's experience ofloneliness. I mean, again, when
you're looking at, you know, a apublic health emergency and the
(09:33):
response to that is socialisolation, The reality is you're
gonna you're gonna have someexperience of, of loneliness.
But, in terms of the broadersocietal impact of the pandemic
subsequent Mhmm. That researchis still taking place.
(09:54):
Mhmm. We don't ultimately haveall the answers at this point in
time. So at at a time in a placeback to those that that time,
and I certainly remember thosetimes, Definitely, that was the
case, especially, again, incases where people were maybe
living on their own and and yourconnection point was through the
(10:15):
technology of the rest of it. Wedon't have a good sense, I would
say, at this point in time as tothe, the longer term impacts of
the pandemic as it applies toloneliness, and and other
factors.
Jessica Samuels (10:28):
Right. Exactly. Okay. And that it makes sense on
kind of ongoing. And I think we,you know, we recently talked
about the, report on the stateof mental health in Canada, and
it's getting worse as we getfurther out from the pandemic.
So I, I kind of understand thatpoint you're making about this
is going to be kind of emergingand to be looked at, and the new
(10:48):
areas of loneliness. So thisHarvard Business Review article,
the, I was scrolling on LinkedInand, because, you know, to feel
connected to the world. No, justkidding. And I read, at
QuickGlutz the title, and itsays, we're still lonely at
work. And it caught me and I waslike, ah, this is really
interesting.
And I had all kinds of thoughtsthat were going through my head.
(11:11):
So, what's really interesting tome in this is that is that, you
know, I I do have a full timejob, I am a business owner, we
actually sell office furniture.So we're very embedded in the
understanding of the return tooffice RTO and the WFH work from
home, because obviously thatthat could financially impact
(11:34):
what I do in my day job as abusiness owner. So when I read
this title, that's what I wentto I thought, oh, okay, this is
going to be another articleabout work from home and return
to work and hybrid models andplus plus plus but it really
wasn't that at all. And in fact,it actually points out that,
(11:55):
being in the office was not thecure by itself to loneliness at
work.
And that was kind of like, wait,what? And it kind of goes back
to what you were saying beforeabout being around people. So
being at work, it doesn'tnecessarily solve the problem at
loneliness at work. So why arewe lonely at
Mike Gawliuk (12:15):
work? Well, first of all, thanks for sharing the
article. Yeah. Yeah. Because asa mental health organization,
certainly one of the thingsthat, we we focus significant
energy on is is the the mentalhealth of, of our workforce.
And, and and there's somereminders in there. Right? I
think, again, it breaks it downto, to some of the myths. And,
(12:38):
one of the myths is that, like,loneliness is a is a a personal
problem, not an organizationalproblem.
Jessica Samuels (12:45):
Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk (12:46):
And to your point that by returning to the office
and doing in person work, that'sgoing to be the thing that's
going to make all the differencein the world when when in fact,
that's not the case. Certainly,what the article talks about,
first of all, is is making it apriority. They actually suggest
(13:08):
measuring loneliness in theworkplace to get a sense of what
that looks like and and and andwhat's happening there. And this
term is going to come up againand again and again as we have
our conversations, but they talkabout building a culture of
connection. Right?
And so, you know, buildingsocialization into the rhythm of
(13:32):
work and being able to spendtime together and and have
social activities and maximize,work opportunities to enhance
that sense of connection Mhmm.As some of the strategies that
need to be considered, to helpaddress loneliness in the
(13:56):
workplace.
Jessica Samuels (13:57):
Mhmm. And I can imagine that we would have to go
back to the the reasons why whythe individual is is feeling
lonely in the workplace. I mean,and and to to kind of pile on to
something that you see, like apizza party is not going to
solve a problem for anindividual who's feeling lonely
at work because they don't fitin with their peers. And I'm
(14:17):
overly simplifying, but I wouldjust like folks to have that
takeaway, to say that it's it'snot a staff. A staff party alone
is not gonna solve this.
Mike Gawliuk (14:28):
Yeah. I would suggest, ultimately, and again,
from what I've read and in in myexperience is, like, you've got
to come to a true understandingof what's taking place. Mhmm.
Like, there's all the things youcan do to, you know, tick the
boxes. So, yeah, a pizza partyis is what it is.
Jessica Samuels (14:43):
Yeah.
Mike Gawliuk (14:44):
I think the the opportunity for people to get
together and connect would bewhat's underneath that, and
that's ultimately the case.Right?
Jessica Samuels (14:54):
Right.
Mike Gawliuk (14:55):
But it goes beyond tick boxes and the things that
we think that we should do tohaving really a good
understanding of ourorganizations, having a good
understanding of the peoplewithin our organizations. And
then what are the things thatultimately organizations can do
to support, you know, ultimatelyorganizations can do to support,
you know, building that cultureof connection, providing those
opportunities for for thosethings to happen. You mentioned
that one of the ways to addressthis in the workplace was
(15:17):
measuring it.
Jessica Samuels (15:23):
You know, are are you talking about, like, a
survey or a questionnaire? Like,I know that, CMHA Kelowna does,
the Guarding Minds, I believe,or has in the past. Is it are
you talking about something likethat that measures the
psychological well-being of ofof staff in the workplace?
Mike Gawliuk (15:39):
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, that's what that's
ultimately what I'm talkingabout. And and the the use of a
anonymized survey to get a senseof what that looks like then
allows organizations ultimatelyand what we would look to do to
then, see what we're doing well,seeing what ultimately people
need, and then moving forwardwith trying to implement some of
(16:02):
those things. Right?
Jessica Samuels (16:03):
Right. Yeah. So solutions for loneliness in the
workplace. Let's let's keepgoing forward with solutions
here and let's have a littlediscussion about individuals who
are experiencing loneliness dueto loss of a loved one or a
significant figure in theirlives. You know, grief, grief is
a complex issue.
(16:24):
And so how, what are somesuggested ways that perhaps
folks can manage theirloneliness due to that?
Mike Gawliuk (16:32):
Yeah. Certainly grief and loss that we've
touched on. I I mean, I thinkthat's a very, very human
experience. Right? Mhmm.
One of the things that they say,first thing is that, don't
should all over yourself. Mhmm.The reality is grief is going to
look different for, everyperson. And so not to put
(16:55):
expectations, on your grief andthink about how you should and
should not feel. You caneverybody's grief is unique,
ultimately, and how each personapproaches grief will differ.
Mhmm. Certainly, some of theother pieces is letting others
(17:17):
that offer to help and support,allowing people into your world
and and allowing that to happen.Mhmm. Finding and giving your
yourself things to do, whateverthat might look like. And that
goes hand in hand in hand with,avoiding isolation.
(17:41):
So maybe tending maybe the lastthing you're gonna wanna do is
attend a social event oranything like that. That tends
to build on itself. Right? It bebecomes a self fulfilling
prophecy. So some of thesuggestions are, like, when
there's an opportunity for asocial connection, If it's a
social event, that piece, go,but maybe you drive drive
(18:06):
yourself to the event and and,you know, you're there for a bit
and then leave.
But certainly, socializing,trying to build connections,
engaging is are some of the waysthat that people can deal with
grief. And I mean, ultimately,depending on, the level of grief
(18:27):
and, how people are managing,certainly, there would recommend
and encourage, you know,counseling as well to help
support people through that.
Jessica Samuels (18:38):
Right. Right. Because if if if your loneliness
feeling lonely due to grief,part of it would be managing the
grief component of it. Andhopefully the loneliness would
would come alongside that aswell. And and, you know, it's
hard to offer suggestions tofolks for, you know, in
(19:00):
different perspectives of of whythey perhaps might be feeling
lonely.
I mean, I don't know. I've neverhad an well, I shouldn't say
that. I was gonna say I've neverhad an experience that I that I
didn't feel like I I fit in,that I wasn't able to kind of
readily manage within a shortamount of time. But, you know,
when we talk about people whoare feeling lonely because they
(19:20):
don't fit in or they don't havethat supporting connections,
ultimately, yes, it sounds likebuilding the connections and the
support is the way to go. But Iwould imagine that part of the
reason why that is absent intheir life is that they do not
know how to go about doing it.
Mike Gawliuk (19:36):
Sure. I mean, ultimately, that's that's that's
highly likely that they don'tknow how to go about doing it.
Mhmm. I one of the things thatwas talked about in terms of,
addressing that is a,understanding the reasons why
you feel lonely. When we talkabout social connection, one of
(19:57):
the one of the terms that wasused was to to be strategic.
So everybody's got their owninterests. Right? So whether or
not, you know, you're intosports or another activity, like
using that interest to thenpotentially, build connections.
(20:19):
So maybe you join a maybe youjoin a sports league, something
like that. Things that alignwith ultimately what you enjoy
and what you like.
It can be little steps. Right?So again, in where there's a
close connection that you have,even if you have a decent
(20:41):
connections with your with yourfamily, trying to reach out, on
a more regular basis. And thatmight mean picking up the phone
and having a phone call versus,again, sending a text message or
getting lost in the world of thethe make believe connection
(21:01):
sometimes that technology canbe. And sometimes, and and
certainly what's encouraged aswell is to, get involved in your
community, the potential ofvolunteering.
Right? So for example, and itsounds simple, but, you know, if
(21:24):
you're an animal lover, there'smaybe opportunities to go and
volunteer at a place like theSPCA, something along those
lines. Getting to know yourneighbors can be one way, to
just sort of to start to crackthat door open a little bit.
Jessica Samuels (21:42):
Like so much of what we talk about here on Mike,
this is a complex issue, Andthere's no easy thing that is
going to solve it. But it'ssomething that we have to pay
attention to, or else we willhave some very serious health
ramifications and mental healthramifications. So ultimately,
when it comes to loneliness,what is your suggestion? How how
(22:02):
do we as individuals address itand how we can how can we
support others in our life whowe may think, might be
experiencing this?
Mike Gawliuk (22:13):
I mean, I think the big message, is that human
beings are hardwired forconnection.
Jessica Samuels (22:20):
Mhmm.
Mike Gawliuk (22:20):
They're hardwired for, social activity. And, you
know, in thinking about that, itit comes back to this thing,
about the notion of communityand connection and how important
(22:42):
that is in terms of addressingloneliness, how important that
is overall in addressing mentalhealth. And, earlier this week,
I was at a at a session, at aconference I attended, and there
was a gentleman there by thename of, Guy Felicella. And he's
(23:07):
fairly well known in the in theprovince and in Canada as
someone who has struggled withsubstance use, spent 20 years on
the downtown east side, is opento telling a story around the
number of overdoses, involvementwith the criminal justice
(23:27):
system, what it was like to be,unhoused. And for him, what made
the difference and the term thathe used is that ultimately when
it comes to, people, humanconnection can change direction
(23:49):
And ultimately, that's part ofthe way forward.
Jessica Samuels (23:53):
Wow. Powerful statement to think we will leave
it there. We do have a number ofresources I know that that you
pulled from and I pulled from inorder to have this discussion.
We're gonna list them on thewebsite on the Away Forward
podcast page presented by BeamCredit Union, because what's
going to be right for people,the human connection, but in
what shape or form that comesin, it's going to be different
(24:15):
for each individual. So we'llmake sure that we get those on
the page and hopefully, somefolks can really find a way
forward in that regard.
Mike, thank you so much forjoining me.
Mike Gawliuk (24:24):
Thank you.
Jessica Samuels (24:26):
Beam Credit Union is proud to be a part of
communities all across B. C.With over 50 branches and
insurance offices dedicated tosupporting your financial
journey. Beam understandsfinancial wellness means
something different to everyone,and they're here to help you
achieve your unique goals.Whether you're saving for the
future, planning your next bigstep or just looking for peace
(24:46):
of mind, Beam Credit Union is byyour side.
GFCU Savings, Gulf and Fraser,Interior Savings and North Peace
Savings are trade names of BeamCredit Union.
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