We dive into life's difficult question “How The Bleep Do I Deal With Aging Parents?" with Dr. Natalie Feinblatt – a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, California who is an expert in trauma and addiction. We explore the financial and emotional toll experienced by both adult children and aging parents, and how trauma and addiction can compound the struggle to connect and cope with the inevitable process of aging and end of life. Drawing from more than 20 years’ experience helping survivors of trauma and addiction heal, Natalie shares her feedback on real situations with aging parents. Moreover, she offers practical advice and resources on how to get help with issues like trauma and addiction.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt is a licensed clinical psychologist who earned her BA in Psychology from UC San Diego, and her MA and PsyD from Pepperdine University. Dr. Feinblatt is currently in private practice and specializes in helping people heal from addictions and trauma. Learn more and contact Dr. Feinblatt at https://drnataliefeinblatt.com. Follow her @healingwithdrnatalie.
Find a therapist on Therapist Finder: PsychologyToday.com
Resources on Healing from Trauma and Addiction:
- The Body Keeps the Score– This book by Bessel van der Kolk explores the effects of trauma on the mind and body, providing valuable insights into healing
- Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving– Pete Walker's book offers guidance for those dealing with complex trauma, helping survivors move toward thriving
- It Didn't Start with You: How Inherited Family Trauma Shapes Who We Are and How to End the Cycle– Mark Wolynn explores the concept of inherited family trauma and offers strategies to break the cycle
- Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents – Lindsay C. Gibson's book provides insights for adult children dealing with emotionally immature parents
- Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, and How It Sabotages Our Lives – Pia Mellody's work focuses on codependency and how it can affect relationships
Addiction Recovery Resources:
- Addiction Recovery Skills Workbook– This workbook offers practical exercises and guidance for individuals on the path to addiction recovery
- SMART Recovery Handbook – SMART Recovery is a science-based approach to addiction recovery, and this handbook provides tools and strategies
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This season we're zoned in onmental wellness as we explore
some of life's biggest, mostimportant questions with
fascinating guests.
Get ready for a colorful,curious exploration of this
thing called life with today'sremarkable guest.
We show up on this planet asvulnerable, dependable creatures
(00:23):
that require the care of ourparents or parental figure to
survive.
As the drum beats on, life asksus to return the favor of
caring for our parents when theyare more dependent and
vulnerable.
It's a circle of life.
At this point in my life, I wantto be there for my mom in her
later years, giving her as muchdignity and care as possible,
(00:47):
without letting that interferewith my own family and career
goals.
On the other hand, I want to beat peace for not being a
caregiver to my dad, who hasbeen marginally involved in my
life since high school.
Landing here was hard.
I had to seek counsel and sortthrough a lot of familial and
societal pressures.
(01:08):
Maybe there's no right answer,just one I have to live with.
We each have to land on what'sright for us when choosing how
to deal with our wonderfullyimperfect aging parents.
Dr Natalie Feinblatt, ourincredible guest is an expert in
trauma and addiction.
She's the kind of qualifiedmental health expert who's tough
(01:30):
enough to address ambivalencearound aging parents, especially
if trauma and addiction isinvolved.
A licensed clinicalpsychologist based in Los
Angeles, California, she earnedher BA in psychology from UC San
Diego and her MA and Psy.
D.
from my beachside alma mater,Pepperdine University.
With 20-plus years experiencein residential, outpatient and
(01:54):
private practice, natalie helpssurvivors of physical, sexual
and relational trauma heal.
I was impressed by herpractical and emotional
intelligence on a popularpodcast about former cult
members, a subspecialty of hertrauma work.
Whether you struggle withtrauma and addiction or grapple
with the prospect of how to copewith evolving family issues,
(02:17):
get ready to dive into theilluminating world of Dr Natalie
Feinblatt as we explore life'selusive question how the f*** do
I deal with my aging parents?
I'm curious to know whatinspired you to say yes to share
your unique perspective onwe're not blowing hot air.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (02:38):
Sure, I mean, as soon as you reached out
to me, I looked into the showand I thought I really like the
looks of the show of you.
I listened to a few episodesand I thought this is an issue
that is coming up more and morewith my clients that are Gen X
millennials, and so I definitelythought that there would be an
(03:00):
audience of people out there whowould benefit from hearing
about this.
Lauren Carlstrom (03:05):
Great.
Well, we're very excited andhonored to have you today.
So thank you for saying yes tothe show, and I think it's
interesting to say you have alot of Gen X and millennial.
Do you happen to have any moresenior clients as well that you
work with?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (03:21):
If I have any clients that are boomers,
they are definitely the youngestboomers that there are.
Mostly my clients are Gen X,millennials and now Gen Z.
Lauren Carlstrom (03:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Have any of your clients.
We can get it, hopefully, intosome of the details a little
later, but are any of yourclients actually coming to you
talking about how it's hard withtheir aging parents right now?
Dr. Natalie Feinblat (03:45):
Definitely .
I work with a lot of folks whohave developmental trauma, so
they experienced emotional abusegrowing up with their families,
and that's typically one of themain reasons that they're
coming to therapy.
And those folks are now havingto deal with their parents
(04:05):
getting older and older andoftentimes starting to
deteriorate in physical ormental health.
Pardon me, I have a cat passingthrough here, so yeah, that's
definitely a topic for quite afew of my clients at this point.
Lauren Carlstrom (04:23):
Yeah, I know it's something that me and my
peer group also is facing andconsidering.
What I thought was.
It's interesting when I givendealing with aging parents is
emotionally difficult.
What I think has compounded itis the financial situation
that's happening.
(04:44):
At least we can speak inAmerica a little more clearly.
We have, I think, the youngergeneration, maybe I'll just say
Gen X and millennials have thisexpectation that their parents
will be leaving some money tothem in the form of an
inheritance or another means.
(05:04):
But the research really doesn'tsupport that for a few factors.
One of the reasons is that theydidn't plan for it.
In fact, 40% of Americans don'tthink they have enough assets
to create a well and only 32% ofAmericans actually have a well,
(05:24):
which is a decline fromprevious years.
On top of just not planning forit, there may not be enough
left, and that is because ofthings like inflation, monetary
inflation, as well as thedebasement of the dollar that's
happening.
Third factor is the high cost oflong-term health care, and that
(05:48):
can crack or crush a nest egg.
I was researching this inpreparation and I found that
40-hour-week home health aid orassisted living facility the
average monthly cost is $4,600,which is $55,000 plus a year and
(06:09):
a private room in a nursinghome.
The average monthly cost is$9,000, which is over $100,000 a
year.
So when we are thinking abouthow our parents are something or
some entity we have to face anddeal with.
It's not just the emotionalburden and it's the same economy
that us younger people we don'teven really have the income,
(06:32):
most of us, to buy our own homelike our parents did.
So financial factor in this, Ithink, is something to
acknowledge and consider as wereally look at this issue.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (06:42):
But I'm more interested in talking with
you in the emotional and mentalstress of this Sure sure, sure,
yeah, well, and I think, just totie the emotional and mental
stress into the financial stuff,something that comes up often
with the people that I work withis also that there is a lack of
(07:07):
clarity and a lack ofcommunication with their parents
around the state planning whattheir assets are, and that adult
children will often feel likethey can't ask those questions
of their boomer parents becausethey will be met with all sorts
of potential negativity aroundthat that they're not supposed
(07:32):
to talk about that stuff ortheir parents don't want them to
know specifics for whateverreasons, and that in and of
itself can be stressful to feellike you don't have maybe the
information that you need andthe people who have it aren't
really willing to give it to you.
Lauren Carlstrom (07:49):
Have you had any success with ways to
approach the boomer parent thatmaybe is not wanting to share
that kind of financialinformation?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (07:58):
Yeah, I mean I think the people that
I've worked with who've had somesuccess in that have made it.
When they do try to bring it upwith their parents, they will
do their best to explain to theparent that they are asking
these questions for the sake oftheir parent, not because
they're nosy or they'rewondering about their
(08:18):
inheritance or they're trying totake money.
It's none of those things.
That they are just trying toplan ahead so that their parents
can get the best care that theypossibly can toward the end of
their lives and that they don'tblow through a bunch of money
and then have nothing left inthe long term.
(08:39):
That tends to be the mostsuccessful approach, but it can
still be tough because you canstill run into parents who are
like it'll be fine, just trustme, you don't need to know the
specifics, and it's like well,if you get into a physical or
mental state in your old agewhere you're not able to handle
(09:02):
this stuff, like somebody has tohave this information right.
Lauren Carlstrom (09:06):
Yeah, yeah, compounds the relationship
issues that are already there,yep.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (09:14):
Very much so.
Yeah, because it's also acommunication issue.
It's less like what is thecommunication about and more
like why can't we communicateabout this?
Lauren Carlstrom (09:25):
And I would imagine trust is a very major
factor as well when you talkabout it.
Yeah, and I think that's where,if we are to talk to our aging
parents about how we can givethem the most autonomy as
possible and dignity, while alsoknowing that we might actually
(09:49):
have a few things that will inour knowledge base or access and
ability that can help them.
I mean, I think to do that firstwe have to look at some of the
relationship right Before we canget to the financial part.
We have to talk about some ofthe emotional, mental and
relational aspects of therelationship to get there,
(10:10):
because where your money is,there your heart is also, and I
think that if our parents aregoing to let the money go in a
way so they can have the carethat they want to need, they're
going to have to have theirtrust in their heart, being what
their kids are saying to them.
So, yeah, well, that's prettyawesome.
(10:31):
I do know you have quite anextensive experience in
counseling people with traumaand addiction, so before we go
into, hopefully, some casestudies where we can talk about
people Gen X and millennials whoare dealing with these issues
in real life, would you bewilling to share all about what
(10:53):
trauma and addiction is, how yousee it in your work and also
what pulled you into it, becauseI always love hearing the story
.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (11:01):
Yeah, sure, I mean, I first got into
addiction treatment beforetrauma and that was pretty much
just the result of being ontrack to be in school, to be a
psychologist and having to workwith a bunch of different
populations Because, wisely,they want you to try out of
(11:25):
several different things inorder to decide what you're most
interested in.
Do you want to work with peoplewho have mood disorders like
depression or bipolar disorder?
Do you want to work withanxiety, things like panic
disorder, ocd?
Do you want to work inaddiction treatment, which is
what I fell into?
Because we don't.
(11:47):
This is something I was justtalking to somebody about
earlier today is that not everymental health professional has
experience working with everysingle issue, and sometimes
folks will think, oh well, Ihave this problem, I'll just
find a therapist and get sometherapy and it's like OK, but
what is the issue?
And you need to find atherapist who specializes in
(12:10):
that Because, for example, withaddiction, not every therapist
has much experience treatingaddiction and if you go and see
somebody who doesn't and that'syour main problem you're going
to run into some issues.
Lauren Carlstrom (12:26):
Yeah, you won't get the help you need,
right?
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (12:29):
Exactly.
Hopefully, if that's the case,the person you're seeing will
say I don't specialize in that.
Let me find you someone whodoes, instead of trying to just
figure it out.
So when I was in school, Ispent a couple of years working
in different addiction treatmentfacilities, because I'm here in
(12:51):
LA, there's a million of them.
It's a very easy place to getsome training and I just liked
it.
I was like this is a populationof people I can work with.
I a lot of people find addictionto be difficult to work with.
I mean, yeah, it's challenging,but not in a way that I don't
like.
So the more experience you getin something, the more likely
(13:16):
you are to get hired in otherplaces for treatment of that.
So I just kind of kept workingat one addiction treatment
center after another and I thinkthat's the best way to get.
Honestly, the reason that Icame to specialize in trauma as
well is that, in my opinion, youcan't really specialize in
(13:36):
treating addiction without alsobecoming a specialist in trauma,
because when you look at theoverlap between those two groups
of people, it's huge.
I've worked with very, very fewpeople who have an addiction,
who had no sort of trauma intheir history and who weren't
(13:58):
self-medicating forpost-traumatic stress with their
addiction.
I've definitely come to workwith plenty of folks who have
trauma and post-traumatic stresswith no addiction, but my work
in that absolutely sprang out ofmy work in addiction.
Lauren Carlstrom (14:16):
Yeah, Do you think I have a couple of
questions of my own curiosity.
Do you think addiction issometimes treated without
addressing underlying issues oftrauma?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (14:30):
Yeah, it definitely can be.
I think that's becoming lessand less of an issue.
I mean, at least in the majoraddiction treatment kind of
hotspots like Los Angeles andFlorida and bigger cities like
San Francisco, new York, mostaddiction treatment facilities
(14:54):
will have some degree of traumatreatment available in them as
well.
I think where we run intoproblems and this opens a whole
discussion about the state ofhealthcare and mental healthcare
in the United States but Ithink where you run into issues
is at treatment facilities.
(15:14):
Addiction treatment facilitiesthat are largely a network with
insurance companies or takeMedicare and Medicaid.
Those places will often kind ofgive like bare bones addiction
treatment which won't involve alot of assistance for trauma or
(15:36):
any other co-occurring mentalhealth issues.
I think overall, healing fromtrauma is continuing to work its
way into addiction treatment,at least in North America.
Lauren Carlstrom (15:56):
Okay, okay.
Well, I'd love for you to sharewith us how to look at trauma.
Maybe you can kind of define oruse some examples of real
trauma that you see.
I do have the also.
There's this last question onthis topic.
If we clear up the trauma, doessometimes the addiction get
cleared up?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (16:18):
Well, I'll answer that first and then
I'll go back to just kind ofdefining trauma.
But in terms of if somebody isaddiction sprang out of as a way
to self-medicate awaypost-traumatic stress, yeah, if
(16:38):
you are able to heal some ofthat post-traumatic stress, the
addiction can definitely fall bythe wayside.
However, if somebody'saddiction has gotten to the
point that they are maybe itstarted as a way to
self-medicate for post-traumaticstress but then eventually they
(16:59):
developed a seriousphysiological dependence on
drugs or alcohol that can kindof become its own thing as well
Then it's like okay, yes, wedefinitely need to treat the
underlying trauma here, but wealso need to focus on sobriety
and addiction recovery, becauseonce you're physically dependent
on things, that can makegetting off of them and cravings
(17:22):
to use again really intense, sothat that can be tricky.
And then, in terms of trauma,trauma is.
Defining trauma is challenging.
There's lots of differentdefinitions out there.
There's kind of the officialAmerican Psychiatric Association
.
It's anything that you eitherexperience or witness that
(17:50):
threatens your life or you thinkis going to threaten your life,
that you might die from it.
I think myself and probablymany other trauma specialists
think that that's a bit toonarrow of a definition.
I think it's really anything,in my opinion, that causes your
(18:12):
nervous system to engage in atrauma response we kind of talk
about the 4Fs If it throws yournervous system into fight,
flight, freeze or fawn and your-.
Lauren Carlstrom (18:28):
I'm sorry, is fawn is the last word?
Or fun.
Fawn?
F-a-w-n, F-A-W-N.
I just wanted to make sure Iwas hearing it correctly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (18:38):
And fawning is essentially a trauma
response that involves complyingwith whatever is going on in
order to try to make it stop.
Lauren Carlstrom (18:50):
I had not heard that before.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (18:51):
Certainly fight or flight, but not really
, oh yeah so there's fight,flight and freeze, which most
people are familiar with.
Fight meaning you becomeaggressive, Flight meaning you
try to run away.
Freeze meaning you freeze inplace and then fawn is when you
kind of just go along withwhatever the situation is as a
(19:13):
means to survive and get throughto the other side of it, and
that is definitely a valid andlegitimate trauma response.
But any sort of extremelystressful life circumstance that
causes you to respond in thoseways could certainly be
considered trauma.
Lauren Carlstrom (19:34):
Okay, and a couple examples of trauma that
happened?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (19:41):
Sure.
I mean the classic one thateverybody thinks of is being an
active military combat right,but people don't realize that it
goes far, far, far beyond that.
It is being physically abusedor assaulted, verbal abuse,
emotional abuse and childhoodbeing sexually abused as a child
(20:03):
or sexually assaulted as anadult.
Things like domestic violence,natural disasters, mass
shootings and many other typesof things.
Lauren Carlstrom (20:18):
We've spoken before about covert and overt
abuse and how they're.
I don't want to quote you, butessentially they're the same
impact they can be on certainpeople, especially children.
Now I would imagine there arepeople who would challenge that
and or who would say that yourtrauma isn't really trauma.
(20:42):
How can we confront and addressthat nonsense?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (20:51):
I would be willing to bet that anybody
who would say something likethat either is a perpetrator of
covert abuse and doesn't want tolook at it, or has been the
victim of covert abuse anddoesn't want to look at it
because that would be scary forthem to consider.
Just to clarify, when we'retalking about overt versus
(21:17):
covert sexual abuse,specifically of children overt
is what we all consider when anadult physically lays their
hands on a child and doessomething sexual to them, but
covert sexual abuse of childrennobody ever has to touch anybody
(21:39):
.
It can be things like havingreally sexually inappropriate
explicit conversations withchildren.
It can be showing pornographyto children.
It can be getting naked and orengaging in sexual acts in front
of a child things along thoselines.
(22:01):
In terms of trying to confrontor push back on people who say,
well, the covert stuff isn't asbad as the overt stuff because
nobody actually laid their handson you.
I would counter that by sayingtalk to some people who have
survived covert sexual abuse andsee the impact that it has had
(22:25):
on their psyche and their sexualdevelopment as a teenager and
an adult, because you're goingto see people who are struggling
with pretty much the exact samethings that people who were
overtly sexually abused strugglewith on a regular basis.
I think that people want to putthings in like tidy little
(22:51):
boxes, like, well, this is whatsexual abuse is and that's what
it's not, and it's like well, Ithink we have to broaden our
perspectives about sex doesn'tjust mean flesh touching flesh.
It can be psychological innature.
When children are exposed toreally inappropriate things that
(23:14):
will leave a lasting scar ontheir psyche.
Lauren Carlstrom (23:17):
Yeah, well, thank you for saying that.
It's really hard and importantstuff.
Yeah, we need to know.
Thinking about that.
Power abuse, right, like sex isreally sexual abuse, is power
abuse?
Yeah, and as I'm thinking aboutsome, the parental role that a
(23:39):
child, especially in child abuse, you must, as a therapist
working with survivors ofphysical, emotional and sexual
abuse, you must somehow come tofill a part of that parent role
as you work with a client.
Is that correct?
Like in a good way, not like inthe where they can't think of
(23:59):
the term, right, but it's wherethey like replace you as that,
but they they might.
But there's a form of that,that bonding that happens in
therapy, correct?
Yeah, and that can be.
I just want to like, kind of,as we talk about the trauma
issues and how we care for ouraging parents, how can that
(24:19):
healing relationship with atherapist help a child, a
child's survivor, help deal withtheir own issues, to eventually
like deal with all therelationships that they work
with?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (24:31):
Sure.
So there's a lot of different,you know terms we can utilize
here, but you know, what I'llsay is is one of the theories
about why therapy is helpful isthat it is a corrective
emotional experience.
So the idea is that, you know,at least in our society, there
(24:52):
is kind of a bit of a hierarchy,with the therapist as the
professional and the client askind of the lay person, and the
idea is that, you know, throughthis healthy relationship with a
therapist, that can be acorrective emotional experience
(25:14):
for a person who maybe has, youknow, going far back as their,
their childhood with theirparents, had really difficult
relationships with people in aposition of authority and I'm
putting quotation marks aroundthat because parents definitely
have authority over their kids.
I mean, a therapist is in theprofessional authority position,
but it's not quite the same,you know.
(25:36):
No, my clients don't have to dowhat I say or whatever, right,
but a way that I know that itcan be helpful and this is an
example that you know I've seenplayed out many times is that
when a client let's say that Ido something and this happens
with every therapist let's saythat I do something that
(25:59):
inadvertently, you know, bothersmy client, hurts their feelings
.
You know something like that andthey're able to bring it up to
me and talk to me about it,right, and whereas maybe they've
never been able to do that withtheir parents or possibly
(26:20):
anybody else.
That will be a correctiveexperience for them, because
even if we disagree I mean mostof the time that this happens I
am just apologetic and then weexplore what it means.
But we can, they can bring thatup in our relationship and
(26:41):
maybe have a difficultconversation about it, one that
ultimately like is healthy andgoes well, and that we're able
to move on from right.
And being able to do that withyour therapist can then lead to
you being able to do that inother relationships also,
(27:01):
potentially with your agingparents.
And I'm not saying that justbecause you bring something up
with your therapist and itultimately goes well means that
you're going to bring somethingup with your aging parent and
it's going to go?
Lauren Carlstrom (27:12):
well, probably not, is what you're actually
saying.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (27:16):
You may not know, well, yeah but it will
go well for the client becausethey will have the experience of
speaking up for themselves andalso knowing that, even if the
response they get back isn'tgreat, they're going to, they're
going to survive and they'llmake it through.
Lauren Carlstrom (27:34):
Yeah, empowering, it's about taking
your personal power.
Yeah, I love that.
That's great.
Well, I have talked to twopeople in my world who gave me
their permission to give ananonymous synopsis of their
current real life situation withtheir aging parents and I'm
(27:56):
going to share with ourlisteners.
I gave you a little preview asto what it is I want to share
with you.
They allowed them to pick theirown names.
So the first one is redIndividual is in their 40s.
There's a book by Lindsay CGibson, I think so.
In her book there's a couple ofsurveys that I pulled from and
(28:19):
there's one survey about theemotional like how well kind of
their childhood was growing up.
So this individual, red scoredlow, like so had a healthy sort
of growing up.
Three out of 15 so he has or shehas no issues working on
recovery or trauma.
The parents have their ownsavings for health care, so the
(28:42):
financial issue is an a burden.
This person reports that thework considerations for themself
is a concern because they can'tgo into work if they're needing
to take care of their parentswho live four and a half hours
away and they resist talkingabout care and of life moving
(29:02):
out of the house.
The parents do.
They and the kids keephammering them to move or find
someone who can help them withsome caregiving in some way, and
the dad is not being open aboutthe medication and
prescriptions that just in casehe forgets, or the mom needs
something that the kids want toknow.
So that's that situation.
(29:23):
What advice, what life tipswould you give red?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (29:30):
Yeah, I mean, this is this.
This is a situation that hasits its pluses and minuses.
Right, it is great to know thatthe parents do have savings for
health care.
That's a big load off.
But I can see how this could befrustrating for red in terms of
(29:53):
, you know, trying to nail themdown on.
You know, are you guys going tomove closer?
Are you going to go into asenior living community and then
even trying to get you know thespecifics of the medication
from them and feeling like theydon't even want to give that up?
I think that you know if they'rein a position where because I
(30:20):
know that in California thereare certain areas that are kind
of like health care deserts,where, like one that I know, for
example, I will go into how butis kind of in like the San Luis
and so and surrounding areas inlike central California, is
(30:42):
that for some reason, there'sjust not a lot of doctors up
there, not a lot of specialistsand not a lot of caregivers, and
so even if, just becausesomebody has the money for
health care, well, if there's no, there's not enough caregivers
to hire to come and take care ofparents in their home, but
(31:02):
that's not a great situation tobe in, right?
So if they're in a place where,okay, we can afford health care,
when the time comes there willbe people to hire to come and
help at the house, it's like,okay, well, if that, even though
that's a more expensive optionthan going to live somewhere, if
(31:22):
the parents can afford that andthat is what they prefer, Okay,
you can't make them chooseotherwise in most cases.
But if we're dealing with, likeyou know, if mom and dad start
to kind of become incapacitatedand there's really not much in
the way of caregivers to hire,what do we do?
This could be.
(31:45):
You know, time is of theessence in terms of trying to
have a conversation where youknow, as unpleasant as it can be
, to try to, you know, not letmom and dad change the subject
or get up and leave, or whateverit is, and, again, really try
to frame it as we are doing thisfor your safety and protection,
(32:09):
right, Because I know you wantto think that you're going to be
able to take care of yourselfuntil the day that you
peacefully pass away in yoursleep or whatever this ideal
scenario is, but none of us knowif it's going to happen like
that.
Lauren Carlstrom (32:26):
Yes, yeah.
It almost seems like the childin that case has the
responsibility of helping theirparents accept end of life.
I mean, isn't that ultimatelywhat we are facing when we talk
to our parents about how theywant to manage their latter day
care?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (32:45):
Yeah, yeah, Absolutely.
I mean we.
I think we're makingimprovements, but we are
historically not a society thatlike handles I mean, like
American, North American whiteculture is, we don't handle end
of life and death very well,right, it's just we're quite
(33:07):
ages and it's just like peopleget old and then I get they die
and that's all we need to thinkabout and it's like, well, no,
it's actually a little bit morecomplicated and nuanced than
that.
Lauren Carlstrom (33:16):
Yeah, and I think that's why it actually
this episode and issue isimportant, because it is
societally and culturally.
We're suppressing it.
We focus on beauty and youthand what can keep us alive,
right, like the last thing wewant to think about is how we're
not going to be here one day.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
(33:39):
Well, we have one more reallife example from my world.
Anonymous, this person chosethe name, chad Thundercock, so
I'm respecting that.
It was a dare as well to saythat this individuals in their
fifties.
They were a five out of 15.
(34:00):
So a little bit more maybestruggle as a child at home, but
still pretty, pretty healthygrowing up.
No issues that they're workingon for recovery or addiction or
trauma recovery.
Parents have means for and apolicy for long term care.
As a child, mom was moreemotionally available than dad
(34:25):
and currently Chad ThunderThundercock every day is cooking
meals, doing the shopping,preparing everything for the
parents, and his or her concernsare, if the parent falls, he's
doing all the chores.
Just really, the complaint forthe child is the huge emotional
(34:47):
polar drain that it isconstantly a burden on Chad
Thundercock's mind and evenafraid to travel and also,
similarly, like red, is tryingto find someone to care for them
and to have the parents acceptthat care for them.
How can we help ChadThundercock?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (35:09):
Well, I would say, you know Chad is at a
little bit of an advantage andthat they are already there,
kind of performing some of thetasks that a caregiver would
perform.
Why I think that might be anadvantage is that you know, if
Chad is able to go in there anddo these things, hopefully there
(35:29):
would be some space to, youknow, swap out a caregiver for
that, and I understand that that.
You know Chad is saying thattheir parents resist this help
and it's like okay, well, thisis, this is where you might, you
know, have to hear your parentsout and validate their feelings
(35:53):
and then also say I understandthat this is hard for you guys.
The caregiver will be comingtomorrow for two hours to help
you, right, like you know, if,if you continue to acquiesce to,
to what they're asking, thenyou know, then it's going to be
Chad that is doing this all thetime.
(36:14):
However, if they, you know,start trying to maybe do it half
time and then bring in andsomebody else is another
caregiver to do that half time,you know the parents might have
resistance to it and be unhappyabout it, but, you know, is what
it is like.
They can, they can deal withthat, that's okay.
It's not not the end of theworld, and this has got to be a
(36:38):
tough situation, given that thedad has Parkinson's and the mom
has, you know, memory issues andthings like that.
You know, one thing that I knowfrom what you told me about
this is that and let me know ifI'm reading this correctly that
you know, mom, they don't reallyhave much of a social life.
(36:59):
Oh, yes, the mom does want asocial life, correct, yeah, yeah
, so I mean that is a greatselling point for entering, you
know, a senior community is thatthey can have independent or
semi-independent living and, atthe same time, all of a sudden
(37:20):
be thrown into a whatever sizecommunity of people who are
meeting in various clubs andplaying games and you know
meeting, for you know craftingor whatever it is Like.
It's just like you don't haveto do anything, just show up at
the right place and time andthere's your social support.
Lauren Carlstrom (37:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's really sage advice and
interesting things for both ourreal but anonymous people to
think about, so and all of us.
So thank you for that.
It does show me, too, how theimportance of the brains, of
clinical advice, can be reallyhelpful in these things, like
(38:01):
not necessarily something afriend might suggest, yeah, yeah
, so I think that is importantto point out.
Well now, as you are an expertin healing from trauma and
addiction, natalie, I'd love itif you could perhaps share from
your own life and work, maybe,how a more severe case of
(38:24):
emotional immaturity and all ofthose things play in it could be
on the parents who have theissues of trauma and addiction,
or emotional immaturity, or thechildren.
Yeah, what do you have to shareabout that?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (38:37):
Well, I can, you know, I can kind of
make an amalgam of a fewdifferent.
You know people that I'veworked with in this position
where you know the one or bothof the parents you know has an
addiction or post traumaticstress that they are clearly
struggling with.
Even if they won't, you know,specify that that's what their
(39:00):
problem is.
And you know that they'veraised an adult child who you
know has their own posttraumatic stress as a result of
being raised by.
You know two people with theseparticular issues who maybe
didn't engage in a lot of helpfor those issues.
They kind of stay stuck in, youknow, stasis as opposed to
(39:25):
moving forward in recovery.
And you know I can think of of.
You know a particular personthat I've worked with where they
very much want to be there fortheir parents and help them, but
they are also torn becausetheir history with their parents
(39:45):
is incredibly loaded andtriggering and their parents
really don't want to take anyaccountability for anything that
has happened in the past thatmight make the relationship
difficult and triggering.
And you know, just recentlyI've, you know, dealt with some
clients who who knows how longit'll last for, but they've
(40:07):
decided that they have to go nocontact with one or both of
their older parents becausetheir parents just, you know,
are too combative or continue tobe too verbally or emotionally
abusive for them to feel okaymaintaining the relationship.
And you know, that's definitelykind of the extreme end of the
(40:31):
spectrum.
But there are plenty of peoplethat get there, unfortunately.
And it's really difficultbecause on the one hand, in
spite of everything that'shappened, the adult child still
feels very concerned for theirparents.
They know that their parentsdon't have great planning for
what is ahead and that theirparents are only going to
(40:54):
continue to become at least morephysically disabled because we
all do as we age, but if notmore, you know, mental health
stuff as well but that they feellike, for their own well being
and safety, that they have tomake that kind of extreme choice
(41:14):
for some period of time.
And it can be difficult becausesometimes families will become
so used to an adult child beingthe one who is dealing with this
one or two difficult parents,that when the adult child
finally says, no, I'm not goingto be dealing with this anymore,
(41:37):
that it's quite a shock forsome of the extended family to
be like, oh, we might have todeal with these people.
Yeah, and you know, sometimesit gets pushed to that degree.
Lauren Carlstrom (41:53):
Yeah, when we had chatted earlier, natalie,
you had said that it's aboutbeing safe, like if you're not
feeling safe with your adultaging parent in the situation,
that's a time and sign that youneed to pull back.
Do you want to, could you?
That really struck me before.
Could we talk a bit?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (42:12):
Yeah, I mean, if you are dealing with
you know aging parents who, whenyou interact with them,
continue to verbally,emotionally, possibly even
physically abuse you.
That is not a safe situation.
Like even a person who has beenthrough tons of therapy, you
(42:37):
know, has all these copingskills right, Like that doesn't
change the fact that being inthe presence of someone who has
been abusive towards you sinceyou were very little, if they're
abusive to you in the presentday, is going to be emotionally
damaging.
Like maybe not as emotionallydamaging as if you were three
(42:58):
years old, right, but like it'sstill not okay.
And if a person has gotten tothe point where they feel like
they can kind of put a wall upand not feel most of the effects
of that, okay, fine.
There's still going to be plentyof people who will reach a
limit with that and will feellike their mental health is in
(43:24):
danger when they are interactingwith an abusive parent.
And nobody wants to get to thepoint of going no contact with a
parent.
I've worked with plenty ofpeople who have gone both ways,
who have decided to maintainsome degree of a relationship
(43:45):
with an aging parent and peoplewho have decided to stop having
a relationship with an agingparent.
There's no one right way.
It's highly specific to thesituation, but I think anybody
who gets pushed to that point itis their last resort Nobody
wants that.
Lauren Carlstrom (44:07):
Very, very tough and think about also the
experience from a senior whosechild is being abusive, Like
elder abuse is something that issomewhat talked about but not
enough.
How then does trauma andaddiction, I mean, does that
fuel a lot of what you think isrelated to elder abuse or not
(44:31):
much?
Is there any research or notexperience you have on that?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (44:36):
Yeah, I mean, luckily, I have not worked
with a ton of people, you know,the, the how do I say this?
The, going back to that termpopulations, the populations of
people that I tend to see in myprivate practice tend to be more
victims or survivors of abuseas opposed to perpetrators of
(45:00):
abuse, which that's just my ownpersonal preference.
There are people who want towork with folks who struggle
with abusive behaviors and theyfind that that's their
population of people, and if so,great, it's not my population.
But does that happen Absolutely?
I mean, there are plenty ofcases of, you know, aging
(45:26):
parents who are, you know, alargely healthy or at least
neutral people who, through lifecircumstances, have an adult
child who maybe struggles with,you know, a serious addiction, a
serious mental health issuethat they're not getting help
for, that perhaps leads them tobe abusive toward their aging
(45:49):
parents.
You know, one thing that I findreally unfortunate and I'm only
going to speak for Californiahere, because that's where I am
is that in cases of child abuse,you know, when it gets reported
(46:09):
to the police and to, you know,the Children of the Department
of Children and Family Services,you know things can be done to
step in and say, ok, we have toremove this parent or we have to
remove this child, and we youknow everybody has to do what we
say to try to fix thissituation.
My experience in California thusfar has been that there are far
(46:31):
fewer protections for seniorsthan there are for children.
My experience through myclients so far is that obviously
, if somebody is being abusiveand it can be proved to be
abusive toward a dependent adult, there can be some legal
(46:52):
recourse for that.
But if you know adultprotective services gets
involved in a situation andperhaps that that aging parent
is scared to tell the truth andthey lie and say that everything
is fine and that they don'twant any help, case closed,
(47:13):
which is definitely not the casewith children, right, if a
child says everything's fine,the police don't go.
Ok, well, let us know if youhave any trouble.
Right, like there's aninvestigation, right.
My experience has unfortunatelybeen that that is not the case
with elderly people and thatabuse can be perpetrated a lot
(47:36):
more than you know parents ofyoung children are ever able to
get away with.
Lauren Carlstrom (47:43):
Yeah, I wish there was more we could do right
about getting, protecting andadvocating for seniors as they
grow older.
I think the one thing is whatyou're doing is helping people
heal who do have trauma and dowant to face the issue of how to
grapple with the issue of agingparents.
A couple treatment options thatI know that you are I don't
(48:09):
know if you say licensed in orcertified in, but EDMR and brain
spotting I think I have doneand know what EDMR is.
I think I know what that is.
I'd love for you to explainthat one and why it's used.
And then also brain spotting Ihad not heard of but until I
read more about you and yourwork and what that is, and so I
(48:32):
thought that was awesome too,especially in light of video and
doing everything kind of in ouronline world now.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (48:39):
So if you would, so EMDR is a type of
trauma treatment that's beenaround for 20, 30 years, at this
point, I think, all told andessentially it involves EMDR
stands for eye movement,desensitization and reprocessing
, which is why we call it EMDR,because that is a mouthful.
(49:03):
So it was originally done witheye movements, as the name would
suggest, but we've come tounderstand that it can be done
with any sort of stimulation itcan be eye movements, auditory
or tactile.
Essentially it is a type oftrauma treatment that involves
alternating left and rightstimulation pardon me while
(49:26):
working through trauma in aspecific kind of way following a
certain protocol, and there's alot of evidence to show that it
helps reducer, eliminatesymptoms of post traumatic
stress, which can be great.
It involves picking specifictargets, so things that have
happened to you in the past,using the right, left
(49:47):
stimulation to lead you throughthoughts, feelings, memories,
physical sensations literallyanything can come up during that
and then kind of debriefingwith the therapist about it and
using that as a way to reprocesswhat you have been through in
(50:08):
such a way that it doesn't causesymptoms of post traumatic
stress anymore.
Lauren Carlstrom (50:14):
And then the neural level.
What's happening in the brain?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (50:19):
Great question.
So at this point in time, thereis a ton of empirical evidence
to show that EMDR reducessymptoms.
Why?
We are still working on that.
We don't know exactly why theright left stimulation does this
.
Maybe we'll get answers one day.
They're working on figuring itout.
(50:41):
Maybe the right leftstimulation causes the
information to go back and forthbetween the right and left
hemispheres of the brain, butwhy?
That helps reduce posttraumatic stress.
So it's kind of in the sameboat as psychedelics.
Lauren Carlstrom (50:59):
maybe how that helps certain types of trauma,
we don't know, but we know itworks.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (51:05):
There's way more empirical, and I say
this as somebody who also doesketamine-assisted psychotherapy,
so I am not talking about this.
Lauren Carlstrom (51:11):
Oh, you do that.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (51:12):
Yeah.
So I'm not by any meansknocking that, but at this point
in time there is more empiricalevidence to back up EMDR than
there is psychedelics.
But that's I'm sure that willchange in time.
Lauren Carlstrom (51:23):
Yeah, yeah, okay and great.
So brain spotting Sure.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (51:30):
So brain spotting.
The idea is that where you seeaffects how you feel, and that
certain eye positions can betied into kind of unlocking
trauma in the subcortex, whichis instead of that's not where
your thoughts are, that's wherekind of your emotions and your
physical sensations are, and sothe idea is that you're able to
(51:52):
identify eye positions thatcorrespond to trauma, process
the emotions and physicalsensations that come up when
you're holding that eye position.
That will help reprocess traumaon all levels instead of just
the thinking level.
Lauren Carlstrom (52:07):
Can you give an example of that?
So like I turn my eye to acertain, like I literally look
down the lower left corner andhold it there?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (52:14):
No, so the way that it's done.
Lauren Carlstrom (52:16):
Yeah, are you going to do it to me right now?
This is great.
No, oh, okay.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (52:21):
But I'm just kind of showing you.
So I've got my little pointerright and my little pointer, let
me see, here, is in the centerof the screen right, and so I
would ask you to think about aspecific trauma that you've been
through, and then we would movethe pointer very, very slowly
in a variety of directions andyou would let me know if you
feel any emotional upset comingup.
(52:44):
Let's say it's like right hereyou feel something.
Okay, so then we would kind ofplay with going up and down, if
it increased or decreased, andthen we'd find a place where
you'd feel the maximum amount ofemotion around it.
Then we would hold that eyeposition for however long it
takes for you to kind of feelall of the physical and
(53:06):
emotional things that are tiedto that, before we would then do
some things to kind of helpmake sure there's nothing left
there.
Lauren Carlstrom (53:15):
And true or false, because that's why I
wanted to ask you about EDMR.
Yeah, I said that right.
Okay, so you don't have to talkabout your issues.
In brain spotting I could say Ihave an issue, I don't want to
tell you what it is.
I'm going to pay you for thesession, but we're just going to
do the mascara pointy thingthat you just showed, right.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (53:34):
Yes, yep, you do not have to.
The important thing is that you, as the client, know what's
going on.
I don't have to know.
Lauren Carlstrom (53:42):
And that is as effective as EDMR.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (53:48):
I don't know that there's as much
research again on brain spottingas there is on EMDR, but I mean
, there's not one thing thatworks for everybody, because
otherwise we'd all be doing that, right, okay.
So for some people it's EMDRthat will help them process,
(54:09):
finish processing some trauma.
For some people it's brainspotting.
Lauren Carlstrom (54:14):
Any other besides ketamine assisted
therapy, which I know a littlebit about as well, but not
enough to facilitate.
Do you want to share any othermodalities of treatment that you
find particularly helpful?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (54:28):
Sure, I mean definitely ketamine
assisted psychotherapy I havestarted.
I got a little bit of trainingin internal family systems,
which is a whole other modelthat I think is really great and
can be extremely helpful.
I also do cognitive behavioraltherapy, acceptance and
commitment therapy.
(54:48):
If you're in the field longenough, you get trained in a lot
of different stuff, but that'sall the stuff that I do the most
of.
Lauren Carlstrom (54:57):
How do you know when someone's ready for
some help to face their owntrauma and addiction issues and
or helping their aging parentsdeal with those issues?
How do you know you're ready?
And then, what are some ways toget help with those things?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (55:13):
You or they are ready, when you're
willing to look outside yourselffor assistance when you know
that you can't figure it all outon your own.
Maybe that doesn't mean therapy, maybe that's reading books,
listening to podcasts, watchingvideos, going to a retreat, I
don't know, but anything that'snot just originating from you.
(55:36):
I would say the best ways to goabout getting help if you can
afford therapy either throughyour insurance or out of paying
out of pocket.
Individual therapy is greatbecause it's one-on-one,
tailored to you.
I would suggest going to thePsychology Today Therapist
(55:58):
Finder.
Just Google that PsychologyToday Therapist Finder.
There's alsoInclusiveTherapistcom.
Those are a couple of, I think,the biggest or best directories
to utilize online.
If you're looking for somebodywho takes your insurance, you
can go through a company, againonline, like Headway or Alma.
(56:21):
That can be much easier thantrying to find somebody through
your insurance company.
If therapy is not an affordableoption for you, or just not for
whatever reason, it's not anoption, start researching online
(56:41):
.
Find books, find podcasts, findvideos.
I know that it's important toverify the information that
you're looking at.
If somebody is presenting somemiraculous cure for a
psychological problem, requestbackup, be like how do we know
this?
What does the research sayDon't just take people's word
(57:06):
for it, but look and see what'sout there with a discerning eye,
it's hard to find a goodtherapist.
Lauren Carlstrom (57:15):
I think that you've suggested looking for 10,
because ultimately then you endup with someone, maybe at the
end.
What's your process for?
Actually, if you can gettherapy, you want therapy.
How do you suggest we gothrough the process of finding a
therapist that will fit us?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (57:33):
Again, it really depends on if you're
looking through your insuranceor not, because they're kind of
different pathways.
I would say something that youshould do, whether you're
private paying or lookingthrough insurance, is reach out
to five to 10 people, becauseyou're not going to hear back
(57:54):
from everybody.
If you just reach out to twopeople and never hear back from
them, you might end updiscouraged and think that you
can't find a therapist, when thereality is you just need to
reach out to a lot of people inorder to hear back from folks.
Lauren Carlstrom (58:09):
You had said there are some low-fee clinics
for $20, $30 that might be inyour area, that maybe you don't
have the most experienced people, but it's something.
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (58:21):
I would suggest looking for, Googling
low-fee therapy and then thename of your city or the name of
your state, because you can dovideo therapy throughout your
state and see what kind ofclinics come up.
Yes, typically there are peoplewho can offer services at a
(58:50):
very low cost Low-fee but it canbe tough to find.
You really have to perseverethrough the search.
Lauren Carlstrom (59:01):
Yes, like life , natalie, we've also put
together, you've put together,and I'm going to share, a list
of other resources that peoplecan find online and some
websites and books that dealwith both addiction recovery and
resources for healing on traumaand addiction.
(59:21):
Thank you for that.
Thank you for sharing all thatwith our listeners, since I did
originally find you on a cultpodcast talking about that
subspecialty of your expertise,and I've learned from a previous
episode that we did with RickAllen Ross, who is an expert in
(59:45):
cults too.
He shared that when we'revulnerable, that's another time
that cults can take advantage ofpeople.
You had mentioned groups like asupport group or anything you
can find for a resource, but aword of caution you want to
offer people about how to avoidsome of the red flags of cults
(01:00:08):
if you're vulnerable and lookingfor help.
Dr. Natalie Feinblat (01:00:11):
Absolutely , regardless of what kind of
help you are getting therapy,support group, literally
anything.
I would look up three things.
I would look up Steve Hasson'scult criteria.
He's got something called theByte Model B-I-T-E.
I would look up MargaretSinger's cult criteria and I
(01:00:34):
would look up Robert Lifton'scult criteria.
I would have those handy andkeep track of if any person or
group that you are involvingyourself with meets a number of
those criteria, because if itdoes time to look for help
elsewhere.
Lauren Carlstrom (01:00:54):
Awesome, very sage advice.
Natalie, it's been a profoundhonor having you here today.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it Thankyou?
Yeah, it's been really great.
How are your parents, by theway?
Dr. Natalie Feinblatt (01:01:11):
Let's put it this way they are aging
boomers.
All of us get into thisprofession for a reason.
It's usually because we havecomplicated backgrounds and have
had struggles of our own.
Just leave it at that and youcan use your imagination.
Lauren Carlstrom (01:01:26):
That's good.
Well, thank you for sharingabout trauma, addiction recovery
and how we can care for ouraging parents and for all the
color that you bring to ourworld.
Thank you, thanks for listening.
Do us a solid and smash thatsubscribe, share and five star
rating button or link for theshow.
(01:01:48):
That way, more people canelevate their mental wellness as
they explore some of life'sbiggest, most important
questions with remarkable andfascinating guests.
Oxygen Plus powers.
this episode of We're NotBlowing Hot, Air Nice Guy
Creative Services is ourproducer.
Leslie Blennerhassett isdesigner.
I'm Lauren Carlstrom,concepting and host.
(01:02:10):
Arlene Appelbaum is editor.
Thank you, valued listener.
Keep breathing easy sotogether, we can color our world
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