July 15, 2025 • 47 mins
Steve Read, retiring after 20 years with the City of Seattle, shares his experience as a materials engineer and insights on leadership, quality management, and cross-agency coordination. He discusses his journey from heavy-equipment operator to materials lab supervisor and the importance of developing communication skills in technical professionals.
Whether you work in construction, engineering, public administration, or simply drive on public roads, this conversation offers valuable perspective on the hidden complexities behind public infrastructure and the dedicated professionals working to ensure it serves the public for generations to come.
Have questions, comments, or want to be a guest on an upcoming episode? Email podcast@aashtoresource.org.
Related information on this and other episodes can be found at aashtoresource.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim (00:03):
Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A.
We're taking time to discussconstruction materials, testing
and inspection with people inthe know.
From exploring testing problemsand solutions to laboratory
best practices and qualitymanagement, we're covering
topics important to you.
Brian (00:18):
Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A.
I'm Brian Johnson and I'm KimSwanson.
Today we have Steven Read fromthe City of Seattle.
Welcome'm Brian Johnson and I'mKim Swanson.
Today we have Stephen Reed fromCity of Seattle.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, brian.
Thank you, kim, good to be here.
Stephen recently attended, wellparticipated, in the technical
exchange that was held inBellevue, washington, in a
(00:39):
public works panel.
So, stephen, how did you enjoybeing a panelist?
Oh, I had a good time.
Steve (00:46):
Um, that goes with you know me just being a big ham.
You know, give me, give me acrowd, so you talk in front of
I'm.
I'm perfectly willing to jumpup and talk in front of it.
I, you know, I don't know whereI got that from.
I, you know, I'm kind of a shyguy a lot of times.
But you know, you, you give mea crowd and I'll, I'll talk to
them all, you know your shynessdidn't come through at all in
(01:11):
the panel discussion and and Iwill I will tell you the reason,
the whole reason.
Brian (01:16):
So originally that panel was not supposed to be public
works.
Originally that was going to bebuilding code discussion and I
was going to get all thesepeople from all the you know the
building code officials fromthat area, you know state, city,
all that.
And then I found out that therewas a big building code meeting
(01:36):
going on that week and so a lotof those people were tied up
and I was like you know what?
There's this guy that I haveemailed and chatted with over
the years in that area, that isa wealth of information and is
not shy about telling me what hethinks about stuff.
And so I reached out to Stephen.
Kim (02:00):
And.
Brian (02:00):
I was so grateful that you were excited about it and
willing to participate, and Iknew you would be a hit in the
panel.
Steve (02:08):
It's just fun.
They're my people.
They're my people.
You know, you can always talkto your people.
Brian (02:14):
Yeah.
Steve (02:15):
And emailing and chatting up with you over the years is
it's.
Brian, what did you do to menow?
Brian (02:22):
Yep, what are you thinking?
What's going on me now?
What are you thinking?
What's going on?
What's going?
Kim (02:27):
on.
Steve (02:28):
Because I've just had an assessment and it's not going
well, brian.
Why is that?
But it's what we've always.
Over the years, we've workedeverything out, you've given me
good information about thethings I need to know, and even,
once in a while, I manage tochange your mind.
And that's keeping an open mindand that's the way it's
supposed to work.
(02:48):
That's, you know, that's whywe're fans, right, that's.
That's.
That's why I said, yes, I'll dowhat you.
Yeah, I'll go do yourconference.
Brian (02:51):
That's fine, because, you know, I I thought it was
worthwhile for you guys, I thinkit was good stuff, it was
enjoyable it was, and we did getsome good feedback from the
session too.
So the reason why I was soeager to get this recording done
this week is because steven isabout to retire on friday and he
has assured me that he meant bysaying the word retire.
(03:14):
He means he's actually going tostep away.
Is that correct?
Steve (03:18):
that is correct, I've it's time to let the young
people have it.
I've had my say um, there'ssome things I'd like to do.
I think you spend more timewith my wife and do a couple of
things I haven't done before.
I'd like to work on the rightside of my brain.
God knows, I have bulked up theleft side for long enough.
The right side is about thesize of a pea and I think I'd
like to get it to at least thesize of a walnut before I go
(03:42):
away.
Do something in the arts, dosomething different, and it's
time.
It's been a long career andit's time.
You know I've put my time inand hopefully I've given what
I've been able to give to theyounger people and let them
carry the torch.
Brian (03:55):
One thing I always hear about in this industry is this
concept that the youngergeneration or the next people
coming in aren't getting theinformation or the training they
need from the older generation,or the next people coming in
aren't getting the informationor the training they need from
the older generation.
Well, they don't typicallyframe it that way.
They typically frame it likeit's the younger generation's
fault for not absorbing all theinformation that they aren't
(04:17):
training them on.
But can you talk to us a littlebit about what your process has
been like, as you've beenlooking into retirement and
thinking, hey, I need to get thenext people ready.
What does that look like to you?
You know?
Steve (04:32):
getting people ready.
I never really thought about myretirement in terms of
educating my people.
You always want to bring yourpeople forward.
That's really important.
First and foremost.
I'm a teacher a teacher, andI'm trying to teach the people
that are with me the things thatI know, and bring my experience
and hard lessons and give thembefore they have to learn them.
(04:52):
I have smart people I work with.
I have smart people that workfor me.
The I has never really beentowards retirement.
It's always been careerdevelopment I think is a better
term for it.
Whether they want to stay inthis business or this office and
move forward or go outside anddo something different, the idea
has always been to make thembetter at what they do and
(05:15):
broaden their knowledge so thatthey can go out and be
successful in anything else theychoose to do.
That's important to me.
That's important to me.
It's something that early in mycareer, nobody thought about.
Earlier in my career, theycertainly didn't really worry
about my career development.
You were labor, you were just ajust a body and to do some
things for us, and when we'redone with you, we're going to
(05:36):
move you on.
I've never felt that way and itit goes back to another
philosophy about, about how youmanage staff.
You know, because if you'rejust in it for the business
purposes and not not interestedin the people you're actually
bringing along, I think you'redoing everybody a disservice.
I mean, I think I think you'redoing the business a disservice.
I think you're certainlyshortchanging the staff.
(05:57):
You're shortchanging yourclients.
You want your people to be asgood as they can be whenever
they can be, and if they chooseto move on from this business,
do something else.
I want them to be successful.
My interns, all the interns I'vehad over my career.
I am very, very, very proud ofmy interns.
I think they've all done well.
I am glad I was able to helpthem if I could.
(06:17):
But that's sort of thephilosophy.
It never really was gettingthem ready for me to retire.
It was always was getting themready for me to retire.
It was always about gettingthem ready for life and getting
them ready to forward theircareer.
That's kind of my take on it,my philosophy about that sort of
subject.
Brian (06:33):
Yeah, that's great.
So you didn't even have tochange anything.
You're just continuing tooperate the way you have.
Steve (06:40):
Right, and the only thing that really changes.
I mean, there's some thingsabout my particular job.
You know how do you pay a bill.
You know who do you call to goget your concrete debris taken
away and recycled, I mean thatsort of thing.
But in fact, the knowledge ittakes to actually do this job
everybody in this office has atsome point in time been our
(07:01):
quality manager, for example hasat some point in time been our
quality manager, for examplethat teaches you a lot about
this job, right?
Everybody in this job managestheir own projects as materials
engineers for the variousprojects we do in the city, so
they know how to work withpeople out in other agencies and
other positions.
They run their own thing.
I'm not a micromanager by anystretch of the imagination.
(07:23):
Delegate, delegate, delegate,delegate.
Let people do what they need todo.
It's their job.
If they need help or backup oradvice, I am always here for
that.
But they get to run their ownlittle businesses and that makes
them qualified to do this thingother than just the nuts and
bolts.
How do I pay a bill?
The simple stuff.
Brian (07:46):
The tasks that come with that job.
Steve (07:50):
Which is a big change over the way when I got this job
.
In fact, the person who wassitting in this chair when I got
here 20 years ago is the motherof one of my senior engineers.
Actually, mary Lee said to mewhen I showed up.
She handed me the keys.
She says my senior engineers,actually.
And Mary Lee said to me when Ishowed up.
She handed me the keys.
She says it's all yours andwalked out the door and the
(08:14):
first thing there were twothings.
One was I had to do aretirement party for the guy who
had actually hired me becausehe was retiring, so that was
going away, and I had to getready for my annual assessment
from AASHTO, from AMRL.
At that point in time, who.
Right, so we learned fastUnfortunately, I'm a fast
learner, you know and thenmanaged the people and all the
(08:36):
other stuff that come with it.
The learning curve was really,really steep and hopefully we've
averted that on this go-aroundand the next guy that actually
sits in this job permanentlywill probably come from one of
this office and will probably bevery well hopefully very well
equipped to do the job.
Brian (08:50):
Yeah, it sounds like your onboarding philosophy has been
shaped by your entry into yourposition.
Steve (08:57):
Yeah, you can say that You've learned.
Brian (09:00):
Sometimes you learn what to do.
Sometimes you learn what not todo.
At times, right Pain is a goodteacher.
Steve (09:07):
Yeah, for sure, if it hurts, you learn, yeah, okay.
Brian (09:11):
So I'm going to ask you a question that I probably can
guess at your answer, but it'sone that comes up a lot in this
industry is how did you get intothis industry?
Steve (09:24):
Oh my God, you got time.
Have we got time?
Brian (09:27):
for this.
Oh, we have time we can editout half of what you say.
Steve (09:33):
So my dad was.
My dad was a truck driver for aconstruction company, right, so
we're gonna go back in historyhere, because there's some
history to this.
Um, so I kind of grew up in theconstruction industry.
Sort of my first job in theindustry was as an oiler on an
asphalt plant.
When I was 18 years old.
I flunked out of college thefirst time.
(09:54):
I needed a job.
That was the first time I wentto college.
Then I got picked up and begana career as a heavy equipment
operator, mostly asphalt paving,but also doing some other stuff
.
I can run a bulldozer with thebest of them, but then you spend
a lot of time on yellow iron,working for people who are not
the greatest, and you're sittingin that seat and you're going.
(10:17):
He's not the brightest guy inthe world, why am I working for
him?
And I went back to college.
My wife and I had met and shewas working at a community
college.
I said maybe I'll go take analgebra class just for fun.
Well, nine years later eightyears later, I should say eight
years later I graduated with aBachelor of Science in Civil
Engineering.
I was 35 years old at thatpoint in time I'm stuck around,
(10:40):
did a master's degree, went towork for a little company called
Pavement Consultants.
I think we were working onairport pavements, because I was
a paving guy.
I wanted to build pavements andthe interesting thing about
working on pavements is that itis all about the kinds of
materials that we do in thisshop.
It's about aggregates, it'sabout soils, it's about asphalt,
(11:02):
it's about concrete.
Those are the things that wereally work on in most of our
labs.
I mean you guys do a lot ofother things, but I mean, for
the kind of places that we do,this, that's the bulk of our
work.
I mean it's a study of thosematerials.
I do that for a decade.
And along comes a buddy of minewho'd worked for me at PCI,
who's working for the citysatellite.
He says, hey, steve, he saysthe best engineering job in the
(11:23):
city just opened up.
You should apply for it.
I said, well, what's that?
He said, well, the materialslab supervisor job just came
open.
Why don't you apply for it?
And I was happy.
Where I was at, I was perfectlyhappy.
I like working on airports, Ilike airplanes, and I dashed off
a cover letter and some resumeI had laying on, mailed it over.
Lo and behold, they hired meand I'm here and I've been here
(11:46):
ever since.
I've been here for the last 20years.
He was right.
This is the best engineeringjob in the city, the city of
Seattle.
If people don't know, we haveour own utilities.
We pipe our own sewage.
We pipe our own drinking water.
We treat our own drinking water.
We sell drinking water.
We treat our own drinking water.
We sell drinking water.
We have our own electriccompany.
We have those guys have fourdams, one of them.
(12:08):
One of them is up in the farnortheast corner of the state.
The dams are pretty.
You should, if you ever get outhere sometime, get a chance to
go up and look at the dams wherethe City Light has their dams.
It's their gorgeous areas.
So I get to work on a lot ofthings.
I work on transportation, Iwork on water, I work in
wastewater, I work on on dams, Iwork on roads, I work on
(12:28):
vertical.
I've worked on everything.
If we've done it in this cityat some point in time, I've
worked on it, and that, for anengineer, is is Nirvana, frankly
, I mean, I don't know a lotabout anything, but I know a
little bit about a lot.
Because of that, you know it'sbeen a great job is that is that
why that was framed.
Brian (12:49):
That way is the best job, yeah, that you could get is
because just the variety and andwhat you get to have an impact
on, yeah exactly, and we talked,and I talked to all departments
.
Steve (13:02):
You know, um, we consult with all departments.
Jeez, I was just out yesterdaywith some.
We redeveloped our waterfrontdown here.
I think we talked a little bitabout that at the thing, right,
it was a huge job, monumentaljob for the city of Seattle, and
the women that run that jobsaid, you know, I said, hey,
steve, we got to go out and havea drink after you know, before
(13:22):
you go.
And so we did last night and wetalked about that.
What made it a good job?
Well, it was jobs like that, itwas the people like that, it
was the people you get to talkto and interact with and your
influence you have on everythingfrom this seat, because
materials engineering affectseverything, whether we're going
to build a park, we're going tobuild a dam, we're going to
build a roadway, we're going tobuild a roadway, we're going to
build you know what choice ofpipe, pipe materials, right,
(13:43):
pipe materials have changed overtime.
How do you rehabilitate?
We've picked up plastic forcrying out loud around here
because we're lining pipes withcured in place plastic pipe so
that we don't have to dig themup and replace them.
Um, I mean all of that stuffand so and so, from from a
person who's just plain curiousand likes is a little bit
gregarious and likes to interactwith people, it's been a great
(14:04):
job in that sense, you know.
So it was yeah, it's, yeah,it's, it's, it's been a great
job.
I mean I haven't moved on.
I mean I stayed here for 20years.
That's not my normal thing.
I moved.
I've had a lot of jobs in mylife.
Actually, when I go back to the10 years I spent, I didn't
think I'd spend 10 years at thePCI.
I spent 10 years because thatwas a pretty.
(14:25):
Working on airports was apretty good job.
But you just your fingers arein everything At some level.
Your fingers are everything.
I answered a phone call today.
Steve, what do we do?
What do we do?
I don't know, but you giveadvice, you know, and people
take your advice, hopefully.
(14:45):
But it's yeah, it's, this hasbeen a.
This has been a good ride.
I've been a really good ride.
Brian (14:51):
Yeah, that's great.
I the the one thing Idefinitely want you to address
more, because before we startedchatting on here in the recorded
part you mentioned somethingthat you're doing there to help
with the help, draw out thegregarious nature in your staff,
because that is an importantpart of development of any
(15:13):
professionals, right Is youcan't just know things, you have
to be able to communicate thosethings that you know, right?
So do you mind just sharing alittle like just what you told
us earlier?
Sure, I mean, that goes, thatgoes.
Steve (15:23):
that was that story we were talking about, about you
know us earlier.
Sure, I mean that goes.
That was that story we weretalking about.
About, you know, back in myconsulting days when I was
working at airports, you know wewere one of the things.
We were small companies soeverybody pitched work.
Right, we had to go and do dogand pony shows in front of you
know.
Sell I mean sell ourselves anengineering firm for projects,
and where I was in I think itwas cleveland, it was one of one
of so one of many I was at andthere was a whole bunch of
(15:46):
principals from some ratherlarge engineering firms standing
around and we were all chattingup and the thing they were
talking about what was thedifference between a staff
engineer, somebody who sits in acubicle and does calculations,
and someone who actually comesout, pitches, work and runs the
company and it comes out ofcommunications.
Can you take your ideas andpresent them in a way that is
coherent and meaningful?
And it was a great point, itwas well taken, it was really
(16:10):
well taken.
So one of the things we like todo, we make people do
presentations, and it's fiveminutes, a five minute thing,
right, you get up and give mefive minutes on any subject.
Today was, for example.
I was with my intern today andshe was doing Muhammad Ali and
this was on the books for awhile.
We hadn't quite gotten to it.
I said are you ready, jamie?
And she says, well, not really.
(16:30):
I said, but I've got my notes.
I said, well, then we'll do itextemporaneously.
You get up and talk, becausethat's an important thing as
well, because when your bosscomes to you and your boss says,
can you tell me about what itis you're doing or where you
need to go, you get up and talkand present that stuff now, not
study and write notes and gopractice like you would do for a
major presentation.
You need to talk now.
(16:50):
That's the sort of thing thatgets you moving up the ladder.
And so we did it.
And the other part of that iswe critique.
When one of us gives a talk,the crowd sits around and says
what is it you did right?
What is it you did right?
What is it you did wrong?
How can you improve?
Because it's important.
If you can't be understood, youcan't go forward.
And if you can present in a waythat is fluid and meaningful
(17:15):
and can engage people, you willmove forward.
That's the kind of people youwant in management.
Seriously, you want inmanagement.
If you're going to particularlyI'm not in public works, we'll
take almost anybody in publicworks.
But if you're out in consultingfor the private side of the
world, for example, you have tobring the personality with you.
You have to bring the thingthat engages people and gets
(17:35):
them thinking you know,believing and understanding what
you say.
Um, and that's what we'retrying to do.
I mean, I want all it's alwaysabout you know.
Brian (17:49):
I agree, Kim.
I've been hogging all thequestions.
Do you want to jump in?
Kim (17:53):
to moving up and succeeding and all of that stuff.
So I loved that story and thatyou instill those skills and
(18:21):
help develop those skills foryour staff.
I love that.
Steve (18:23):
We're all smart people.
That's the thing, right.
We all have chops, we all knowhow to do what we do and we're
really good at it.
But can we bring that forwardand give that to other people
who want to hire us to do thethings that we do?
That's where the rubber meetsthe road in the business world.
Kim (18:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Now, I love just hearing youtalk.
So when you were just like Iwas talking, I'm like I was
learning a lot.
I'm very much enjoying thispart of the conversation.
But since you've been with thecity of Seattle for 20 years,
I'm just curious of, like, whathas been the biggest change that
you've seen from maybe yourfirst few years there to now, as
(19:00):
you're, you know, kind ofwrapping up and getting ready to
go on to your next adventure.
What has been the biggestchange, or most maybe noteworthy
or memorable change, for you?
Steve (19:13):
Wow, that's a that is a really difficult question, and
I'll tell you why.
We're not as old as perhapsBoston.
Right, we're not that old,we're a mere 125 or so years old
.
But we're a mature business.
We've been at this for a while.
We've been building things andmaintaining things and providing
(19:33):
utility services for a while.
So we are kind of bound up intothe way we work and the things
we do.
We don't see big changes.
We're a government.
We don't change very fast atall.
In fact, the SPU, the SeattlePublic Utilities Way, the actual
division I work for it justtakes a lot of process to do
(19:55):
anything.
We love our meetings.
So I don't think there'sanything that really shocks me.
I think one of the things I'venoticed in the city of Seattle
that really, really encouragesme is how women have moved in
the engineering world and theSTEM projects have moved into
leadership positions.
The girls I was with last night, for example, who led and ran
(20:21):
that monstrous project downthere in fact we were talking
about that last night.
It's unusual, because women inengineering or in STEM are plus
or minus 15% right Not very manyand to have the plus or minus
15% right Not very many and tohave the really good, smart
people that I work with in that15% from that 15%, it's pretty
(20:45):
darned amazing.
I think it's really, really,really good.
I think it's something I don'tknow if it's a change, but it's
something that you see that isreally encouraging.
And one of the things that wealso do is make sure we do our
STEM outreach right Our science,technology, engineering and
math outreach, particularly forpeople of color, minorities and
(21:06):
women, to bring them over,because we're shorthanded, we
are really white, we are reallymale, and we need to change that
.
And we need really white, we arereally male, and, and we need
to change that and we need tobring that forward, because
diversity is the answer tosolving a lot of things.
I mean, everybody brings theirown point of view with them, uh,
and the city is good about that, and they have been for 20 plus
years before I got here.
Diversity is is one of thosethings that we're really really,
(21:27):
we really really do in seattle,um, and and it and I can tell
you it works.
I mean, collaborative solutionshere are awesome, because when
you're sitting at a table fullof people who don't all look the
same, they all bring differentperspectives to an issue, and
when you're collaborating, wow,you can come up with some cool
(21:47):
ideas.
It's, you know, anyway, but interms of taking changes, nothing
really huge, but but except foragain like seeing, like seeing
more women come up through theSTEM side of things, engineering
side of things, I think it'sbeen really, really encouraging.
Brian (22:02):
This is a question that was kind of callback to our
panel discussion, that most ofour audience hasn't heard but
the so, so this reference makesno sense to them.
But I did ask you about whatthe challenges of working with
different departments.
You know, you guys are kind ofintegrated in the city of
Seattle where you have publicworks, you have utilities, you
(22:23):
have all these other things thatmaybe some of the other cities
don't have.
But you also are dealing withcounty and state and EPA and FAA
and all of these other entities.
Steve (22:36):
How does this work?
And this monstrous thing calledSound Transit?
So, if you don't know aboutSeattle, we don't have an
integrated mass transit systemhere quite yet, and so we're
building trains, we're buildinga lot of trains, we're building
trains, we're building a lot oftrains.
It's by an entity called SoundTransit, which is cities,
counties in the Puget Sound area, all sort of ganged up and
(22:57):
created this thing called SoundTransit.
That's another entity.
The person who is the executivein charge that I was having
drinks with last night, who'sthe executive in charge of the
waterfront redevelopment, whichis almost finished, is now going
to work for the citycoordinating with Sound Transit
(23:18):
at the executive level.
How do we solve all of theseissues?
There's land use issues.
There's permitting Permittingis a huge thing as Sound Transit
wants to build their trainsacross town Construction issues,
outreach, as you sat down lastnight and town Construction
issues outreach to I, just asyou sat down last night and just
(23:39):
outlined.
It's just a whole plethora ofthings that has to be
coordinated with Sound Transitand it's huge.
And you know how.
You know I'm not a very highlevel guy.
I'm kind of a low level guy andof course I work with state
departments.
We work with WSDOT, washingtonState Department of
Transportation, king County, ourcounty folks, and my advice
always was you know, when youhave let the entity be what the
(24:01):
entity has to be, we all haveneeds in our own system.
So if I'm going, if I'm city ofSeattle, I have to work on a
WSDOT system because working onthat project intersects with
theirs.
Wsdot has their requirements.
Let them have theirrequirements.
Their system is what theirsystem is.
Their rules are what theirrules are.
We're not there to change themand we do the same to them.
(24:23):
We're doing something comingoff of one of the floating
bridges by the University ofWashington.
It's a big giant interchangeWSDOT is doing and a lot of it
intersects with the city ofSeattle and we didn't back off
on our rate.
We don't have quite the samespecifications, the same way of
doing things that they do.
We said no, you're going to doit our way.
It was really and if you've gota good coordinator and you
always have to have acoordinator it worked really
(24:44):
well.
That was really smooth.
But we level.
If you're trying to solveissues and you solve them at the
lowest possible level, you'rein the less, fewer turf wars.
People get, particularly as youmove up in the chain, get
fiefdoms.
They have this thing that theyhave and they're the boss of it.
They're going to be the boss ofit.
(25:05):
They're going to have it theirway, which can lead to some
really, really gnarly conflict.
And I think that's why Angie,being as good as she is as an
executive project manager,that's why she got the sound
transit job.
It's because, yes, that's goingto be the high level and, yes,
there are a lot of features, butshe is really good at working
with people and smoothing theway, picking the right people.
That leads to an aside that wewere talking about last night
(25:28):
and this really resonated withme.
Angie Brady is tall and she's'sblonde and she's got blue eyes.
She's really smart.
But she says when I walk into aroom, when I walk into a room
and the room is full of men, shesays what I have to say never
carries weight.
That's what she says.
That's why I hired a guy to dothat for me.
I tell him what I want them tosay.
(25:49):
He goes in that room and saysit and they believe him.
I hate that, but it's managing.
It's managing, yeah, and I saidsmart move, she says.
And she says I don't have aproblem with that, I get the
message across, it gets done.
That's what I'm here for.
It's outcome, not process, andthat really resonated with me.
(26:10):
And again, so how you deal withother agencies is what's that
thing that you have to do to getthe message across.
My thing is I work at thelowest level possible.
I have a lot of friends whomove up the food chain and when
we solve issues, we sit down andwe talk about it and we solve
it.
We don't get all bound up indog wind and try and think about
what is best for everybodyinvolved.
(26:31):
That doesn't always happen asyou move up.
If you have to elevate yourissues, then you're going to get
into those fiefdoms, thosethings where people really dig
their feet in and say I can't,it's just my way, or the highway
and I've been down that roadtoo it's really, unfortunately,
you can't do anything about it.
I'm a public employee, I have aboss.
Brian (26:54):
My boss tells me what to do, I get my marching orders and
I go.
So I like that lesson about thehaving the solving problems on
the lower levels where you canactually get the work done.
You have the people who aredoing the work right.
You understand what thecomplications are getting them
all together.
So nobody's imagining what theother group is might or might
not be thinking too.
That's really important.
I think all of us have at somepoint in our lives experienced
(27:15):
making that mistake of imaginingwhat is going, you know,
anticipating what oh that personmight be interested in that.
Well, just ask them, right,Maybe you get there faster For
sure.
Steve (27:28):
You know for sure.
Just ask.
I mean, it doesn't takeanything to ask the question.
The worst answer you can get isno, and that don't hurt very
bad.
Brian (27:37):
No, it doesn't, and it tells you what you need to know.
Steve (27:40):
Yeah, I mean, god knows, you've told me no enough times,
so you know it didn't hurt memuch.
Brian (27:46):
Yeah.
Well, that was another thing Iwanted to point out.
I find that when I have peoplewho are willing to push back and
when not that I want to inviteevery laboratory in the program
to push back, but when we havethose kind of conversations and
debates about different things,it always leads to something
better, like a betterunderstanding, a better, like a
(28:07):
better relationship.
I now have this relationshipwith you that I wouldn't have if
you were just like yeah, yeah,whatever you say, we'll do this
thing, but I appreciate you andall of your perspectives and
I've learned some things and Ithink it's great and it helps us
all get better.
Steve (28:25):
This is one of the things .
This is a business thing you'redoing.
Brian, right, you're not theonly game in town, right, right,
and to a certain degree you are.
Ryan, right, you're not theonly game in town, right, right,
and to a certain degree you are, but to a certain degree you're
not either.
And so you're running thebusiness, being willing in a
customer service aspect, beingwilling to listen to your
customers, being able to reactto your customers, tell them why
(28:49):
you do things and why it'simportant and why we just did
this thing that you don'tparticularly agree with, but we
think it's necessary for thebetter good that's appreciated.
That's why we stay withAsheville.
That's why I'm willing toengage with you at any point in
time is because I'm heard.
You listen and we get feedbackfrom each other Throughout
business, throughout theconstruction process, throughout
all the things that we do.
That's how we communicate.
(29:10):
That's how we do things.
You have to talk to peoplebecause you're trying to
influence, and communication isa good thing, because if you
don't at least try tocommunicate, how do you know
what you're going to get backout of it?
You can't assume I don't knowwhat you're thinking.
I can't assume what you'rethinking.
I can ask you for certain.
If I ask you, hopefully youtell me the truth.
Not all people do that, buthopefully you'll tell me the
(29:35):
truth.
Um, but, but without, withoutand and communication.
The style of communication isreally, really important, you
know, particularly particularlywhen you think about constant,
the idea of constant improvement, which is something that you
guys are all about for sure.
That's one of the reasons whywe love to have you guys come
around and not at our work andlook at our labs.
The things that we do wasbecause it made us better at the
end of the day, and so how, howyou communicate.
(29:55):
So all, all communication, allcriticism is is constructive.
It's sort of it's okay to sayyou didn't do that the right way
or that was a mistake, it'sokay, but here's how you can
correct it, how's we give it,and don't be punitive about it,
don't, don't, don't make it hurt, just say here's how we can get
better, how we can move forward.
And that's a large part of whatyou guys do as well.
I mean, it's pretty positiveworking with you guys, pretty
(30:16):
positive getting forward, andalways approach, you know, those
visits with the attitude thatthey're here to make us better
at what?
Kim (30:26):
we do.
Steve (30:26):
And that's the way we do it, and I think that's any audit
and we've had this God.
We get audits on federallyfunded or state-funded projects.
We'll send auditors to look atus and how we've done our work,
and the idea is, as long as wekeep the eye going forward is
that their findings are there tomake us better.
We come out better in the longrun, because now you don't get
into fights, you don't getlawsuits from the government,
(30:52):
you don't get fines, you don'tget hurt, you approach it the
right way.
That's what the auditors areabout.
That's what they do.
They want to make you better.
Here's the things that we needyou to do and here's how you can
improve.
We ask those questions as well.
That's the other great thingabout having you guys come
around.
We pick up a new test.
We don't have anybody to gauge.
How are we doing on this test,for example?
(31:14):
Because we don't understand.
We're doing it, we read therules, we look at the YouTubes,
but your assessors come in andthey have seen it.
They've seen it and we will askhow does someone else, what can
we do to get us where we needto be?
And that's helped a lot.
Yeah, we're fans.
(31:35):
We're fans.
Yeah.
Brian (31:36):
Hey, that sounds great to me.
I like hearing that If we cando anything to help people,
we're happy about it.
But I think it's when we getquality-minded people like
yourself involved.
Getting feedback from you isreally valuable.
Getting feedback from somebodywho's doing the bare minimum,
(31:57):
it's not valuable.
And if we have people you knowlike talking about customer
service, I mean, customerservice is important to us.
But when we have people who arenot well-intended, don't want
to get better, if they want towalk to somebody else, we're
happy to see them go andHopefully they change their mind
and come around.
(32:18):
We're not in it to build ourcustomer base to as big as it
can be.
We want the better ones to staywith us.
Steve (32:24):
The reason we come to you guys is because it gives us
credibility, because of the highstandard that you guys provide
and make us work to.
It gives us credibility.
I cannot remember a time whensomeone actually contested a
finding of ours.
I just can't remember it.
And one of the things isbecause at the top of my report
(32:45):
it says AASHTO Resource.
It says we were accredited forthat test by these guys and
that's hard to argue withbecause they can't bring
anything better to the table tosay that you guys did it the
wrong way or your findings arenot valid.
Hopefully we did a good jobBecause you know how those
things work.
Right Errors?
Brian (33:04):
Oh yeah, oh sure.
Steve (33:06):
But nobody argues with it and we get through it, and so
that's why that AASH it's,that's why that actual resource,
not moniker is is really.
You know, it's.
Brian (33:16):
It means a lot in our business yeah I mean I'm sure it
helps, but, like I think, what?
When you're dealing with thosekind of situations, I think it's
more you than it is theaccreditation, because you have
the experience and, like I, youknow, kim is just hanging on
every word.
She's just trusting everythingyou have to say.
So I think that probably yourcommunication is helping a lot
(33:38):
in accepting what you have tosay.
Steve (33:40):
This might get edited out , but there's a saying here on
here we get in compaction beefs,particularly on asphalt, once
in a while, right, and I'venever lost a compaction beef.
The thing is, you know, youtake your nuclear gauges out
until you're in your relativecompaction of the gauge.
You show a subflow thecontractor always and there's
resolution to go cut cores.
(34:01):
That's always a resolution andI say fine, but the way we wrote
the spec was that the engineergets to pick the cores, core
locations.
It's not random.
It is not random.
Oh wow, and we never lose acompaction beef.
Because I will go pick thecores and I am an old asphalt
guy.
My master's degree it wassomething, my thesis had
(34:24):
something to do with asphaltpaving.
I got a clue we never lose, wenever, ever lose.
And because and I say that youknow that sounds awful, it does
sound, but have faith in ourresults.
If we've been out there andwe've done more testing than
necessary and we've justdetermined that you're
(34:46):
noncompliant, I have great faithin my people and procedure and
equipment because it's beenmaintained, calibrated, the
people are trained, they'retested, we're accredited, we
understand, I have great.
You don't have to prove it tome with cores, we've already
done it, and so I just go out,and you know then we don't lose,
we just don't lose.
I'm not interested in anybodywinning, but we're not going to
(35:10):
lose.
Brian (35:10):
Well, and if somebody really wanted to press you and
take other cores, they couldcertainly do that, but they're
not going to get anywhere, I'msure.
Steve (35:18):
Oh no, because by the rules, this is public works.
By the rules, my lab is the paylab.
So one of the things that'scome along lately is the FHWA
has begun pushing morecontractor quality control
programs onto grants, which is agreat thing.
Now we can have a longconversation about contractor
(35:40):
quality control, but it's agreat thing.
But at the end of the day,there's also quality assurance.
That goes on and that's us.
We're the owner's lab, we'rethe quality assurance lab.
We may not sample at the samerate, but the pay gauge.
This usually comes out ofcompaction Compaction of
proctors usually but the pay labis our lab.
You can do what you're going todo, but if you want to get paid
(36:01):
for it, you better be payingattention to our results, and
that brings the quality controllabs into compliance pretty
quick.
It snaps their heads around andbrings them to the table and
doing good work pretty quick aswell, because they can't be
telling their client thatthey're good when they're not,
and we do.
I mean this is, this is not.
(36:23):
I don't want to.
I don't want to say that we'reall imperious and you know we
don't listen to you or whatyou're doing.
By all means.
We have discussions about thisstuff, we talk about it and we
look at things and but what wefind most cases is that we're
doing it the right way, someoneelse is doing it the wrong way
and that makes a difference inyour test results, and so we,
you know.
So that says we're a little, weare a little bit imperious,
(36:45):
that's just.
That's kind of me too.
Brian (36:46):
So that's all right, it's important work.
You know you're protecting theinvestments and the
infrastructure of the city.
Right, that's pretty bigresponsibility Indeed indeed.
So what has been the mostdifficult part of your job?
You know?
20 years in public works uh it,you know, protecting the
(37:10):
integrity of this infrastructurein seattle, uh what, what's the
biggest challenge, or what'swhat was the?
Steve (37:18):
hardest thing that is.
That is a great question.
I have to.
I, yeah, cause I think my jobhas been great.
Right, it's, every problem isalready solved and I and no one,
no one thing makes your lifemiserable.
I think the thing that, uh,yeah, I.
So the old thing is that whenyou go on a project, there are
(37:39):
there you can have, you can havequality, you can have money and
you can be quality.
Scope, scheduled right, picktwo, pick two right.
That's the old adage and that'spretty close to true.
Scheduled has driven because inpublic sector work there's
always politics right Meaning sowe're going to go into your
(38:01):
neighborhood and we're going todo this thing and we're going to
be done by this date.
If it all goes sideways and thequality isn't there, schedule
tends to jump up and say we haveto be out of here by this date.
We're going to have to acceptsomething less, and I find that
highly annoying.
I always say I'm the qualityguy.
I think my job.
I always say I'm the qualityguy Because this comes a bit
(38:24):
from my background in pavementmanagement on airports, meaning
how long can we make somethinglast?
And it's also an environmentalthing, it's a carbon thing as
well, because the least greenthing we can do is be tearing
things up because we didn'tbuild them well and we have to
replace them earlier thanplanned.
That's not really green, and somy perspective is always from
(38:47):
that standpoint and also thestandpoint of the value for
public money spent is is itgoing to last as long as we
intend it to last?
And sometimes schedules gets inthe way and you don't get to do
the things that you want to dobecause they have to be done
quickly or on schedule.
For me that's a hard pill toswallow because, okay, so it's
going to take a week longer.
(39:09):
That's not politically acceptedand that ripples down through
the construction manager for themanager, people all the way to
the top.
It goes down and up and downand up and it resonates.
I've had some reallyinteresting conversations with
people saying I don't care aboutyour schedule, I don't care, I
don't care, I think the qualityneeds to be this and um, I don't
win all those arguments.
Sometimes I win and we get, weget things right.
(39:30):
Lots of times I'd lose and it'svery hard for me to pill, for
me to swallow.
Brian (39:42):
Um, that's just, that's just the way I'm built, that's
just me.
Yeah, you're made for this, uh,okay, so I don't want to be too
negative.
Let's, let's, uh, and, and I'llsay end.
But maybe kim will have anotherquestion to mix in here too.
But, uh, what has been the mostrewarding part of your job?
Like what?
Was there a certain event or aproject that you see?
(40:02):
No, no, none of that none ofthat.
Steve (40:04):
It is absolutely the people I have worked with,
absolutely the people I haveworked with, um, the people
who've worked for me.
I can't say enough about them,I just can't.
They've been fantastic people,fantastic people to work with.
The people I've worked for,generally speaking, fantastic
people, fantastic people to workwith.
The people I've worked for,generally speaking, have been
fantastic.
The people I work with in otherdepartments have been fantastic
(40:25):
.
I have worked with a lot ofsmart, dedicated, intense,
good-meaning people and that isthe rewarding part, the part
that we are not this is a hardpart of the current political
situation in this country that'sreally hard for me to swallow
is okay.
There's a lot of dead meat in inum government.
Meet the people I know.
(40:47):
Work with the people I know,see how hard they work and and
and what their thought processesare and how they go to work
every day and what they want todo for the people they work for.
Spend the money the right way.
Um, it's, that is.
That is the thing.
It's the people.
It's always the people I mean.
I've done a lot of jobs in mylife.
I've done a lot of great things, really cool things From a
(41:11):
professional standpoint.
Yeah, that's awesome, but atthe end of the day it comes down
to us.
It comes down to Brian and Kim.
It comes down to yeah, it'sjust the people.
I'm really rewarded havingworked with some really smart,
intelligent, nice, well-meaningpeople.
Brian (41:28):
I'm sure a lot of them have the same thing to say about
you over your career.
Steve (41:34):
There might be a few out there.
In fact, I'm disappointed.
Not everybody's going to likeyou, not everybody's going to
hate you.
Brian (41:42):
Steve, thank you so much for your time today and thank
you for engaging with us at theTechnical Exchange and for
always being willing to debatethings with me about standards
and quality, and it's been agreat relationship.
Like I said to you when we werethere, I wish I had gotten to
meet you years ago so we couldhave had more of this going on
(42:04):
over the years.
So I feel like I had a missedopportunity there to get more of
this kind of interaction withyou over the years, but I
appreciate what I had.
Steve (42:13):
There should be a few people like me out there.
I mean, there's characters inthe business.
You know I'm just one of them,you know.
You know I don't know ifengaging you 15 years ago would
have done you any good or not,but I mean, some of your quality
analysts have certainly paidthe price.
You know and Brian, I'll tellyou some of the stuff we talked
about.
You know, because you guys arehere the standards, right, the
(42:35):
standard says this is what we'regoing to look at, and sometimes
that's not quite right, youknow.
I mean there's a couple ofthings I have in mind because,
because standards are written bypeople with PhDs, Sometimes we
don't understand it.
You know, some of the things wedo don't need to be that exact
or that much that that close.
We can get by with somethingyou know, like Platon's being
(42:58):
need to get that flat.
Do you know how hard that is toget, how much it costs you to
get that sort of thing?
And then, does it matter?
And can you show me the datathat says it does matter?
I mean things like that that itwould be nice if that resource
would advocate for us and lookat some of those things and say,
(43:18):
look, here's the argument we'regetting from our people, and
you're on ASTM I know you are,because I already gave you you
know hell about that one youknow kind of advocate for us
down those lines with ASTM andAASHTO on their standards and
say, you know, look, these arethe things that really matter,
these are the things that reallydon't, because you guys
understand as much as we do and,in a lot of cases, more more so
(43:44):
.
Um, but I also understand whereyou're at.
You're in the middle, you'reabsolutely dead square in the
middle and and it's not your jobto advocate for anybody.
Brian (43:49):
But that's kind of that's kind of where I'm at I, I, I
like that and I do think thatthat's been a a good opportunity
for us to to be in the middleand to communicate.
And really that goes back toyour point about being good
communicators.
It's really incumbent upon usto do a good job communicating
with those committees,communicating with our customers
(44:11):
, trying to bring along thiscontinual improvement mindset
and try to make sense of thethings that don't make sense to
people, try to get reasonabletolerances.
That's been that.
That's a journey I've been onthe last several years is try to
talk some sense into somepeople about some of these
requirements.
But you know there's alwaysthat assumption out there that
(44:33):
oh, it must have been importantto be in there in the first
place, and I would say it's justwhat they had when they wrote
the standard.
Steve (44:44):
Exactly, exactly, exactly .
And the other thing when yousit on ASTM committees,
particularly ASTM committees,you can see there's agendas in
those committees.
It's like anything else, it'slike any other body there are
agendas and being able to winnowout the agendas and over my
career, the thing I wish hadworked a little bit for somebody
like Lafarge or Holson orsomebody like that, where I
(45:06):
could attend more ASTM meetingsin person.
Because to really argue out inthe committee some of those
things that I see, my reputationon some of those committees, on
CO9 in particular, is notparticularly good because I will
vote a negative on almostanything.
If I think it's not right, Iwill rescind it.
If they can make the case, Idon't have a problem taking my
(45:28):
word back.
But I will say no and I'll sayshow me why, tell me, why does
this make a difference and howdoes this affect the consumer?
Not just the two peopleinvolved in that transaction,
but how does this affect theconsumer out there, the guy who
doesn't know as much about thesethings as we know.
(45:48):
I lose a lot of those, I win afew, I lose a few.
There you go.
That's all part of the process.
At the end of the day.
I think we're pretty close toright.
We're not exactly, but we'repretty close to right.
We're not exactly, we're prettyclose to right.
Brian (46:03):
We'll keep getting closer , yeah, but all right, well, hey
, thanks again.
Thank you, I appreciate yourtime and happy retirement, yep.
Hope you enjoy exercising theother side of your brain for the
next many, many years.
Steve (46:16):
I am Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Oh good, thank you.
Engaging with you guys isalways fun, so thank you.
Thank you so much for over theyears.
Kim (46:27):
It's been a great ride, man .
Here's your quality quick tipof the day.
A common problem with QMSdocuments and records is that
they're inaccurate.
Be careful not to copy theexamples in R18 verbatim or
borrow information from otherorganizations.
You probably do things at leasta little differently.
You can learn more by going tothe ReUniversity section of our
(46:48):
website and check out the Roadto Developing an Effective QMS
articles for more information onthis topic.
Thanks for listening to AASHTOResource Q&A.
If you'd like to be a guest orjust submit a question, send us
an email at podcast ataashtoresourceorg, or call Brian
at 240-436-4820.
(47:10):
For other news and relatedcontent, check out AASHTO
Resources social media accountsor go to aashtoresourceorg.
Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A.
We're taking time to discussconstruction materials, testing
and inspection with people inthe know.
From exploring testing problemsand solutions to laboratory
best practices and qualitymanagement, we're covering
topics important to you.
Brian (00:18):
Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A.
I'm Brian Johnson and I'm KimSwanson.
Today we have Steven Read fromthe City of Seattle.
Welcome'm Brian Johnson and I'mKim Swanson.
Today we have Stephen Reed fromCity of Seattle.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, brian.
Thank you, kim, good to be here.
Stephen recently attended, wellparticipated, in the technical
exchange that was held inBellevue, washington, in a
(00:39):
public works panel.
So, stephen, how did you enjoybeing a panelist?
Oh, I had a good time.
Steve (00:46):
Um, that goes with you know me just being a big ham.
You know, give me, give me acrowd, so you talk in front of
I'm.
I'm perfectly willing to jumpup and talk in front of it.
I, you know, I don't know whereI got that from.
I, you know, I'm kind of a shyguy a lot of times.
But you know, you, you give mea crowd and I'll, I'll talk to
them all, you know your shynessdidn't come through at all in
(01:11):
the panel discussion and and Iwill I will tell you the reason,
the whole reason.
Brian (01:16):
So originally that panel was not supposed to be public
works.
Originally that was going to bebuilding code discussion and I
was going to get all thesepeople from all the you know the
building code officials fromthat area, you know state, city,
all that.
And then I found out that therewas a big building code meeting
(01:36):
going on that week and so a lotof those people were tied up
and I was like you know what?
There's this guy that I haveemailed and chatted with over
the years in that area, that isa wealth of information and is
not shy about telling me what hethinks about stuff.
And so I reached out to Stephen.
Kim (02:00):
And.
Brian (02:00):
I was so grateful that you were excited about it and
willing to participate, and Iknew you would be a hit in the
panel.
Steve (02:08):
It's just fun.
They're my people.
They're my people.
You know, you can always talkto your people.
Brian (02:14):
Yeah.
Steve (02:15):
And emailing and chatting up with you over the years is
it's.
Brian, what did you do to menow?
Brian (02:22):
Yep, what are you thinking?
What's going on me now?
What are you thinking?
What's going on?
What's going?
Kim (02:27):
on.
Steve (02:28):
Because I've just had an assessment and it's not going
well, brian.
Why is that?
But it's what we've always.
Over the years, we've workedeverything out, you've given me
good information about thethings I need to know, and even,
once in a while, I manage tochange your mind.
And that's keeping an open mindand that's the way it's
supposed to work.
(02:48):
That's, you know, that's whywe're fans, right, that's.
That's.
That's why I said, yes, I'll dowhat you.
Yeah, I'll go do yourconference.
Brian (02:51):
That's fine, because, you know, I I thought it was
worthwhile for you guys, I thinkit was good stuff, it was
enjoyable it was, and we did getsome good feedback from the
session too.
So the reason why I was soeager to get this recording done
this week is because steven isabout to retire on friday and he
has assured me that he meant bysaying the word retire.
(03:14):
He means he's actually going tostep away.
Is that correct?
Steve (03:18):
that is correct, I've it's time to let the young
people have it.
I've had my say um, there'ssome things I'd like to do.
I think you spend more timewith my wife and do a couple of
things I haven't done before.
I'd like to work on the rightside of my brain.
God knows, I have bulked up theleft side for long enough.
The right side is about thesize of a pea and I think I'd
like to get it to at least thesize of a walnut before I go
(03:42):
away.
Do something in the arts, dosomething different, and it's
time.
It's been a long career andit's time.
You know I've put my time inand hopefully I've given what
I've been able to give to theyounger people and let them
carry the torch.
Brian (03:55):
One thing I always hear about in this industry is this
concept that the youngergeneration or the next people
coming in aren't getting theinformation or the training they
need from the older generation,or the next people coming in
aren't getting the informationor the training they need from
the older generation.
Well, they don't typicallyframe it that way.
They typically frame it likeit's the younger generation's
fault for not absorbing all theinformation that they aren't
(04:17):
training them on.
But can you talk to us a littlebit about what your process has
been like, as you've beenlooking into retirement and
thinking, hey, I need to get thenext people ready.
What does that look like to you?
You know?
Steve (04:32):
getting people ready.
I never really thought about myretirement in terms of
educating my people.
You always want to bring yourpeople forward.
That's really important.
First and foremost.
I'm a teacher a teacher, andI'm trying to teach the people
that are with me the things thatI know, and bring my experience
and hard lessons and give thembefore they have to learn them.
(04:52):
I have smart people I work with.
I have smart people that workfor me.
The I has never really beentowards retirement.
It's always been careerdevelopment I think is a better
term for it.
Whether they want to stay inthis business or this office and
move forward or go outside anddo something different, the idea
has always been to make thembetter at what they do and
(05:15):
broaden their knowledge so thatthey can go out and be
successful in anything else theychoose to do.
That's important to me.
That's important to me.
It's something that early in mycareer, nobody thought about.
Earlier in my career, theycertainly didn't really worry
about my career development.
You were labor, you were just ajust a body and to do some
things for us, and when we'redone with you, we're going to
(05:36):
move you on.
I've never felt that way and itit goes back to another
philosophy about, about how youmanage staff.
You know, because if you'rejust in it for the business
purposes and not not interestedin the people you're actually
bringing along, I think you'redoing everybody a disservice.
I mean, I think I think you'redoing the business a disservice.
I think you're certainlyshortchanging the staff.
(05:57):
You're shortchanging yourclients.
You want your people to be asgood as they can be whenever
they can be, and if they chooseto move on from this business,
do something else.
I want them to be successful.
My interns, all the interns I'vehad over my career.
I am very, very, very proud ofmy interns.
I think they've all done well.
I am glad I was able to helpthem if I could.
(06:17):
But that's sort of thephilosophy.
It never really was gettingthem ready for me to retire.
It was always was getting themready for me to retire.
It was always about gettingthem ready for life and getting
them ready to forward theircareer.
That's kind of my take on it,my philosophy about that sort of
subject.
Brian (06:33):
Yeah, that's great.
So you didn't even have tochange anything.
You're just continuing tooperate the way you have.
Steve (06:40):
Right, and the only thing that really changes.
I mean, there's some thingsabout my particular job.
You know how do you pay a bill.
You know who do you call to goget your concrete debris taken
away and recycled, I mean thatsort of thing.
But in fact, the knowledge ittakes to actually do this job
everybody in this office has atsome point in time been our
(07:01):
quality manager, for example hasat some point in time been our
quality manager, for examplethat teaches you a lot about
this job, right?
Everybody in this job managestheir own projects as materials
engineers for the variousprojects we do in the city, so
they know how to work withpeople out in other agencies and
other positions.
They run their own thing.
I'm not a micromanager by anystretch of the imagination.
(07:23):
Delegate, delegate, delegate,delegate.
Let people do what they need todo.
It's their job.
If they need help or backup oradvice, I am always here for
that.
But they get to run their ownlittle businesses and that makes
them qualified to do this thingother than just the nuts and
bolts.
How do I pay a bill?
The simple stuff.
Brian (07:46):
The tasks that come with that job.
Steve (07:50):
Which is a big change over the way when I got this job
.
In fact, the person who wassitting in this chair when I got
here 20 years ago is the motherof one of my senior engineers.
Actually, mary Lee said to mewhen I showed up.
She handed me the keys.
She says my senior engineers,actually.
And Mary Lee said to me when Ishowed up.
She handed me the keys.
She says it's all yours andwalked out the door and the
(08:14):
first thing there were twothings.
One was I had to do aretirement party for the guy who
had actually hired me becausehe was retiring, so that was
going away, and I had to getready for my annual assessment
from AASHTO, from AMRL.
At that point in time, who.
Right, so we learned fastUnfortunately, I'm a fast
learner, you know and thenmanaged the people and all the
(08:36):
other stuff that come with it.
The learning curve was really,really steep and hopefully we've
averted that on this go-aroundand the next guy that actually
sits in this job permanentlywill probably come from one of
this office and will probably bevery well hopefully very well
equipped to do the job.
Brian (08:50):
Yeah, it sounds like your onboarding philosophy has been
shaped by your entry into yourposition.
Steve (08:57):
Yeah, you can say that You've learned.
Brian (09:00):
Sometimes you learn what to do.
Sometimes you learn what not todo.
At times, right Pain is a goodteacher.
Steve (09:07):
Yeah, for sure, if it hurts, you learn, yeah, okay.
Brian (09:11):
So I'm going to ask you a question that I probably can
guess at your answer, but it'sone that comes up a lot in this
industry is how did you get intothis industry?
Steve (09:24):
Oh my God, you got time.
Have we got time?
Brian (09:27):
for this.
Oh, we have time we can editout half of what you say.
Steve (09:33):
So my dad was.
My dad was a truck driver for aconstruction company, right, so
we're gonna go back in historyhere, because there's some
history to this.
Um, so I kind of grew up in theconstruction industry.
Sort of my first job in theindustry was as an oiler on an
asphalt plant.
When I was 18 years old.
I flunked out of college thefirst time.
(09:54):
I needed a job.
That was the first time I wentto college.
Then I got picked up and begana career as a heavy equipment
operator, mostly asphalt paving,but also doing some other stuff
.
I can run a bulldozer with thebest of them, but then you spend
a lot of time on yellow iron,working for people who are not
the greatest, and you're sittingin that seat and you're going.
(10:17):
He's not the brightest guy inthe world, why am I working for
him?
And I went back to college.
My wife and I had met and shewas working at a community
college.
I said maybe I'll go take analgebra class just for fun.
Well, nine years later eightyears later, I should say eight
years later I graduated with aBachelor of Science in Civil
Engineering.
I was 35 years old at thatpoint in time I'm stuck around,
(10:40):
did a master's degree, went towork for a little company called
Pavement Consultants.
I think we were working onairport pavements, because I was
a paving guy.
I wanted to build pavements andthe interesting thing about
working on pavements is that itis all about the kinds of
materials that we do in thisshop.
It's about aggregates, it'sabout soils, it's about asphalt,
(11:02):
it's about concrete.
Those are the things that wereally work on in most of our
labs.
I mean you guys do a lot ofother things, but I mean, for
the kind of places that we do,this, that's the bulk of our
work.
I mean it's a study of thosematerials.
I do that for a decade.
And along comes a buddy of minewho'd worked for me at PCI,
who's working for the citysatellite.
He says, hey, steve, he saysthe best engineering job in the
(11:23):
city just opened up.
You should apply for it.
I said, well, what's that?
He said, well, the materialslab supervisor job just came
open.
Why don't you apply for it?
And I was happy.
Where I was at, I was perfectlyhappy.
I like working on airports, Ilike airplanes, and I dashed off
a cover letter and some resumeI had laying on, mailed it over.
Lo and behold, they hired meand I'm here and I've been here
(11:46):
ever since.
I've been here for the last 20years.
He was right.
This is the best engineeringjob in the city, the city of
Seattle.
If people don't know, we haveour own utilities.
We pipe our own sewage.
We pipe our own drinking water.
We treat our own drinking water.
We sell drinking water.
We treat our own drinking water.
We sell drinking water.
We have our own electriccompany.
We have those guys have fourdams, one of them.
(12:08):
One of them is up in the farnortheast corner of the state.
The dams are pretty.
You should, if you ever get outhere sometime, get a chance to
go up and look at the dams wherethe City Light has their dams.
It's their gorgeous areas.
So I get to work on a lot ofthings.
I work on transportation, Iwork on water, I work in
wastewater, I work on on dams, Iwork on roads, I work on
(12:28):
vertical.
I've worked on everything.
If we've done it in this cityat some point in time, I've
worked on it, and that, for anengineer, is is Nirvana, frankly
, I mean, I don't know a lotabout anything, but I know a
little bit about a lot.
Because of that, you know it'sbeen a great job is that is that
why that was framed.
Brian (12:49):
That way is the best job, yeah, that you could get is
because just the variety and andwhat you get to have an impact
on, yeah exactly, and we talked,and I talked to all departments
.
Steve (13:02):
You know, um, we consult with all departments.
Jeez, I was just out yesterdaywith some.
We redeveloped our waterfrontdown here.
I think we talked a little bitabout that at the thing, right,
it was a huge job, monumentaljob for the city of Seattle, and
the women that run that jobsaid, you know, I said, hey,
steve, we got to go out and havea drink after you know, before
(13:22):
you go.
And so we did last night and wetalked about that.
What made it a good job?
Well, it was jobs like that, itwas the people like that, it
was the people you get to talkto and interact with and your
influence you have on everythingfrom this seat, because
materials engineering affectseverything, whether we're going
to build a park, we're going tobuild a dam, we're going to
build a roadway, we're going tobuild a roadway, we're going to
build you know what choice ofpipe, pipe materials, right,
(13:43):
pipe materials have changed overtime.
How do you rehabilitate?
We've picked up plastic forcrying out loud around here
because we're lining pipes withcured in place plastic pipe so
that we don't have to dig themup and replace them.
Um, I mean all of that stuffand so and so, from from a
person who's just plain curiousand likes is a little bit
gregarious and likes to interactwith people, it's been a great
(14:04):
job in that sense, you know.
So it was yeah, it's, yeah,it's, it's, it's been a great
job.
I mean I haven't moved on.
I mean I stayed here for 20years.
That's not my normal thing.
I moved.
I've had a lot of jobs in mylife.
Actually, when I go back to the10 years I spent, I didn't
think I'd spend 10 years at thePCI.
I spent 10 years because thatwas a pretty.
(14:25):
Working on airports was apretty good job.
But you just your fingers arein everything At some level.
Your fingers are everything.
I answered a phone call today.
Steve, what do we do?
What do we do?
I don't know, but you giveadvice, you know, and people
take your advice, hopefully.
(14:45):
But it's yeah, it's, this hasbeen a.
This has been a good ride.
I've been a really good ride.
Brian (14:51):
Yeah, that's great.
I the the one thing Idefinitely want you to address
more, because before we startedchatting on here in the recorded
part you mentioned somethingthat you're doing there to help
with the help, draw out thegregarious nature in your staff,
because that is an importantpart of development of any
(15:13):
professionals, right Is youcan't just know things, you have
to be able to communicate thosethings that you know, right?
So do you mind just sharing alittle like just what you told
us earlier?
Sure, I mean, that goes, thatgoes.
Steve (15:23):
that was that story we were talking about, about you
know us earlier.
Sure, I mean that goes.
That was that story we weretalking about.
About, you know, back in myconsulting days when I was
working at airports, you know wewere one of the things.
We were small companies soeverybody pitched work.
Right, we had to go and do dogand pony shows in front of you
know.
Sell I mean sell ourselves anengineering firm for projects,
and where I was in I think itwas cleveland, it was one of one
of so one of many I was at andthere was a whole bunch of
(15:46):
principals from some ratherlarge engineering firms standing
around and we were all chattingup and the thing they were
talking about what was thedifference between a staff
engineer, somebody who sits in acubicle and does calculations,
and someone who actually comesout, pitches, work and runs the
company and it comes out ofcommunications.
Can you take your ideas andpresent them in a way that is
coherent and meaningful?
And it was a great point, itwas well taken, it was really
(16:10):
well taken.
So one of the things we like todo, we make people do
presentations, and it's fiveminutes, a five minute thing,
right, you get up and give mefive minutes on any subject.
Today was, for example.
I was with my intern today andshe was doing Muhammad Ali and
this was on the books for awhile.
We hadn't quite gotten to it.
I said are you ready, jamie?
And she says, well, not really.
(16:30):
I said, but I've got my notes.
I said, well, then we'll do itextemporaneously.
You get up and talk, becausethat's an important thing as
well, because when your bosscomes to you and your boss says,
can you tell me about what itis you're doing or where you
need to go, you get up and talkand present that stuff now, not
study and write notes and gopractice like you would do for a
major presentation.
You need to talk now.
(16:50):
That's the sort of thing thatgets you moving up the ladder.
And so we did it.
And the other part of that iswe critique.
When one of us gives a talk,the crowd sits around and says
what is it you did right?
What is it you did right?
What is it you did wrong?
How can you improve?
Because it's important.
If you can't be understood, youcan't go forward.
And if you can present in a waythat is fluid and meaningful
(17:15):
and can engage people, you willmove forward.
That's the kind of people youwant in management.
Seriously, you want inmanagement.
If you're going to particularlyI'm not in public works, we'll
take almost anybody in publicworks.
But if you're out in consultingfor the private side of the
world, for example, you have tobring the personality with you.
You have to bring the thingthat engages people and gets
(17:35):
them thinking you know,believing and understanding what
you say.
Um, and that's what we'retrying to do.
I mean, I want all it's alwaysabout you know.
Brian (17:49):
I agree, Kim.
I've been hogging all thequestions.
Do you want to jump in?
Kim (17:53):
to moving up and succeeding and all of that stuff.
So I loved that story and thatyou instill those skills and
(18:21):
help develop those skills foryour staff.
I love that.
Steve (18:23):
We're all smart people.
That's the thing, right.
We all have chops, we all knowhow to do what we do and we're
really good at it.
But can we bring that forwardand give that to other people
who want to hire us to do thethings that we do?
That's where the rubber meetsthe road in the business world.
Kim (18:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Now, I love just hearing youtalk.
So when you were just like Iwas talking, I'm like I was
learning a lot.
I'm very much enjoying thispart of the conversation.
But since you've been with thecity of Seattle for 20 years,
I'm just curious of, like, whathas been the biggest change that
you've seen from maybe yourfirst few years there to now, as
(19:00):
you're, you know, kind ofwrapping up and getting ready to
go on to your next adventure.
What has been the biggestchange, or most maybe noteworthy
or memorable change, for you?
Steve (19:13):
Wow, that's a that is a really difficult question, and
I'll tell you why.
We're not as old as perhapsBoston.
Right, we're not that old,we're a mere 125 or so years old
.
But we're a mature business.
We've been at this for a while.
We've been building things andmaintaining things and providing
(19:33):
utility services for a while.
So we are kind of bound up intothe way we work and the things
we do.
We don't see big changes.
We're a government.
We don't change very fast atall.
In fact, the SPU, the SeattlePublic Utilities Way, the actual
division I work for it justtakes a lot of process to do
(19:55):
anything.
We love our meetings.
So I don't think there'sanything that really shocks me.
I think one of the things I'venoticed in the city of Seattle
that really, really encouragesme is how women have moved in
the engineering world and theSTEM projects have moved into
leadership positions.
The girls I was with last night, for example, who led and ran
(20:21):
that monstrous project downthere in fact we were talking
about that last night.
It's unusual, because women inengineering or in STEM are plus
or minus 15% right Not very manyand to have the plus or minus
15% right Not very many and tohave the really good, smart
people that I work with in that15% from that 15%, it's pretty
(20:45):
darned amazing.
I think it's really, really,really good.
I think it's something I don'tknow if it's a change, but it's
something that you see that isreally encouraging.
And one of the things that wealso do is make sure we do our
STEM outreach right Our science,technology, engineering and
math outreach, particularly forpeople of color, minorities and
(21:06):
women, to bring them over,because we're shorthanded, we
are really white, we are reallymale, and we need to change that
.
And we need really white, we arereally male, and, and we need
to change that and we need tobring that forward, because
diversity is the answer tosolving a lot of things.
I mean, everybody brings theirown point of view with them, uh,
and the city is good about that, and they have been for 20 plus
years before I got here.
Diversity is is one of thosethings that we're really really,
(21:27):
we really really do in seattle,um, and and it and I can tell
you it works.
I mean, collaborative solutionshere are awesome, because when
you're sitting at a table fullof people who don't all look the
same, they all bring differentperspectives to an issue, and
when you're collaborating, wow,you can come up with some cool
(21:47):
ideas.
It's, you know, anyway, but interms of taking changes, nothing
really huge, but but except foragain like seeing, like seeing
more women come up through theSTEM side of things, engineering
side of things, I think it'sbeen really, really encouraging.
Brian (22:02):
This is a question that was kind of callback to our
panel discussion, that most ofour audience hasn't heard but
the so, so this reference makesno sense to them.
But I did ask you about whatthe challenges of working with
different departments.
You know, you guys are kind ofintegrated in the city of
Seattle where you have publicworks, you have utilities, you
(22:23):
have all these other things thatmaybe some of the other cities
don't have.
But you also are dealing withcounty and state and EPA and FAA
and all of these other entities.
Steve (22:36):
How does this work?
And this monstrous thing calledSound Transit?
So, if you don't know aboutSeattle, we don't have an
integrated mass transit systemhere quite yet, and so we're
building trains, we're buildinga lot of trains, we're building
trains, we're building a lot oftrains.
It's by an entity called SoundTransit, which is cities,
counties in the Puget Sound area, all sort of ganged up and
(22:57):
created this thing called SoundTransit.
That's another entity.
The person who is the executivein charge that I was having
drinks with last night, who'sthe executive in charge of the
waterfront redevelopment, whichis almost finished, is now going
to work for the citycoordinating with Sound Transit
(23:18):
at the executive level.
How do we solve all of theseissues?
There's land use issues.
There's permitting Permittingis a huge thing as Sound Transit
wants to build their trainsacross town Construction issues,
outreach, as you sat down lastnight and town Construction
issues outreach to I, just asyou sat down last night and just
(23:39):
outlined.
It's just a whole plethora ofthings that has to be
coordinated with Sound Transitand it's huge.
And you know how.
You know I'm not a very highlevel guy.
I'm kind of a low level guy andof course I work with state
departments.
We work with WSDOT, washingtonState Department of
Transportation, king County, ourcounty folks, and my advice
always was you know, when youhave let the entity be what the
(24:01):
entity has to be, we all haveneeds in our own system.
So if I'm going, if I'm city ofSeattle, I have to work on a
WSDOT system because working onthat project intersects with
theirs.
Wsdot has their requirements.
Let them have theirrequirements.
Their system is what theirsystem is.
Their rules are what theirrules are.
We're not there to change themand we do the same to them.
(24:23):
We're doing something comingoff of one of the floating
bridges by the University ofWashington.
It's a big giant interchangeWSDOT is doing and a lot of it
intersects with the city ofSeattle and we didn't back off
on our rate.
We don't have quite the samespecifications, the same way of
doing things that they do.
We said no, you're going to doit our way.
It was really and if you've gota good coordinator and you
always have to have acoordinator it worked really
(24:44):
well.
That was really smooth.
But we level.
If you're trying to solveissues and you solve them at the
lowest possible level, you'rein the less, fewer turf wars.
People get, particularly as youmove up in the chain, get
fiefdoms.
They have this thing that theyhave and they're the boss of it.
They're going to be the boss ofit.
(25:05):
They're going to have it theirway, which can lead to some
really, really gnarly conflict.
And I think that's why Angie,being as good as she is as an
executive project manager,that's why she got the sound
transit job.
It's because, yes, that's goingto be the high level and, yes,
there are a lot of features, butshe is really good at working
with people and smoothing theway, picking the right people.
That leads to an aside that wewere talking about last night
(25:28):
and this really resonated withme.
Angie Brady is tall and she's'sblonde and she's got blue eyes.
She's really smart.
But she says when I walk into aroom, when I walk into a room
and the room is full of men, shesays what I have to say never
carries weight.
That's what she says.
That's why I hired a guy to dothat for me.
I tell him what I want them tosay.
(25:49):
He goes in that room and saysit and they believe him.
I hate that, but it's managing.
It's managing, yeah, and I saidsmart move, she says.
And she says I don't have aproblem with that, I get the
message across, it gets done.
That's what I'm here for.
It's outcome, not process, andthat really resonated with me.
(26:10):
And again, so how you deal withother agencies is what's that
thing that you have to do to getthe message across.
My thing is I work at thelowest level possible.
I have a lot of friends whomove up the food chain and when
we solve issues, we sit down andwe talk about it and we solve
it.
We don't get all bound up indog wind and try and think about
what is best for everybodyinvolved.
(26:31):
That doesn't always happen asyou move up.
If you have to elevate yourissues, then you're going to get
into those fiefdoms, thosethings where people really dig
their feet in and say I can't,it's just my way, or the highway
and I've been down that roadtoo it's really, unfortunately,
you can't do anything about it.
I'm a public employee, I have aboss.
Brian (26:54):
My boss tells me what to do, I get my marching orders and
I go.
So I like that lesson about thehaving the solving problems on
the lower levels where you canactually get the work done.
You have the people who aredoing the work right.
You understand what thecomplications are getting them
all together.
So nobody's imagining what theother group is might or might
not be thinking too.
That's really important.
I think all of us have at somepoint in our lives experienced
(27:15):
making that mistake of imaginingwhat is going, you know,
anticipating what oh that personmight be interested in that.
Well, just ask them, right,Maybe you get there faster For
sure.
Steve (27:28):
You know for sure.
Just ask.
I mean, it doesn't takeanything to ask the question.
The worst answer you can get isno, and that don't hurt very
bad.
Brian (27:37):
No, it doesn't, and it tells you what you need to know.
Steve (27:40):
Yeah, I mean, god knows, you've told me no enough times,
so you know it didn't hurt memuch.
Brian (27:46):
Yeah.
Well, that was another thing Iwanted to point out.
I find that when I have peoplewho are willing to push back and
when not that I want to inviteevery laboratory in the program
to push back, but when we havethose kind of conversations and
debates about different things,it always leads to something
better, like a betterunderstanding, a better, like a
(28:07):
better relationship.
I now have this relationshipwith you that I wouldn't have if
you were just like yeah, yeah,whatever you say, we'll do this
thing, but I appreciate you andall of your perspectives and
I've learned some things and Ithink it's great and it helps us
all get better.
Steve (28:25):
This is one of the things .
This is a business thing you'redoing.
Brian, right, you're not theonly game in town, right, right,
and to a certain degree you are.
Ryan, right, you're not theonly game in town, right, right,
and to a certain degree you are, but to a certain degree you're
not either.
And so you're running thebusiness, being willing in a
customer service aspect, beingwilling to listen to your
customers, being able to reactto your customers, tell them why
(28:49):
you do things and why it'simportant and why we just did
this thing that you don'tparticularly agree with, but we
think it's necessary for thebetter good that's appreciated.
That's why we stay withAsheville.
That's why I'm willing toengage with you at any point in
time is because I'm heard.
You listen and we get feedbackfrom each other Throughout
business, throughout theconstruction process, throughout
all the things that we do.
That's how we communicate.
(29:10):
That's how we do things.
You have to talk to peoplebecause you're trying to
influence, and communication isa good thing, because if you
don't at least try tocommunicate, how do you know
what you're going to get backout of it?
You can't assume I don't knowwhat you're thinking.
I can't assume what you'rethinking.
I can ask you for certain.
If I ask you, hopefully youtell me the truth.
Not all people do that, buthopefully you'll tell me the
(29:35):
truth.
Um, but, but without, withoutand and communication.
The style of communication isreally, really important, you
know, particularly particularlywhen you think about constant,
the idea of constant improvement, which is something that you
guys are all about for sure.
That's one of the reasons whywe love to have you guys come
around and not at our work andlook at our labs.
The things that we do wasbecause it made us better at the
end of the day, and so how, howyou communicate.
(29:55):
So all, all communication, allcriticism is is constructive.
It's sort of it's okay to sayyou didn't do that the right way
or that was a mistake, it'sokay, but here's how you can
correct it, how's we give it,and don't be punitive about it,
don't, don't, don't make it hurt, just say here's how we can get
better, how we can move forward.
And that's a large part of whatyou guys do as well.
I mean, it's pretty positiveworking with you guys, pretty
(30:16):
positive getting forward, andalways approach, you know, those
visits with the attitude thatthey're here to make us better
at what?
Kim (30:26):
we do.
Steve (30:26):
And that's the way we do it, and I think that's any audit
and we've had this God.
We get audits on federallyfunded or state-funded projects.
We'll send auditors to look atus and how we've done our work,
and the idea is, as long as wekeep the eye going forward is
that their findings are there tomake us better.
We come out better in the longrun, because now you don't get
into fights, you don't getlawsuits from the government,
(30:52):
you don't get fines, you don'tget hurt, you approach it the
right way.
That's what the auditors areabout.
That's what they do.
They want to make you better.
Here's the things that we needyou to do and here's how you can
improve.
We ask those questions as well.
That's the other great thingabout having you guys come
around.
We pick up a new test.
We don't have anybody to gauge.
How are we doing on this test,for example?
(31:14):
Because we don't understand.
We're doing it, we read therules, we look at the YouTubes,
but your assessors come in andthey have seen it.
They've seen it and we will askhow does someone else, what can
we do to get us where we needto be?
And that's helped a lot.
Yeah, we're fans.
(31:35):
We're fans.
Yeah.
Brian (31:36):
Hey, that sounds great to me.
I like hearing that If we cando anything to help people,
we're happy about it.
But I think it's when we getquality-minded people like
yourself involved.
Getting feedback from you isreally valuable.
Getting feedback from somebodywho's doing the bare minimum,
(31:57):
it's not valuable.
And if we have people you knowlike talking about customer
service, I mean, customerservice is important to us.
But when we have people who arenot well-intended, don't want
to get better, if they want towalk to somebody else, we're
happy to see them go andHopefully they change their mind
and come around.
(32:18):
We're not in it to build ourcustomer base to as big as it
can be.
We want the better ones to staywith us.
Steve (32:24):
The reason we come to you guys is because it gives us
credibility, because of the highstandard that you guys provide
and make us work to.
It gives us credibility.
I cannot remember a time whensomeone actually contested a
finding of ours.
I just can't remember it.
And one of the things isbecause at the top of my report
(32:45):
it says AASHTO Resource.
It says we were accredited forthat test by these guys and
that's hard to argue withbecause they can't bring
anything better to the table tosay that you guys did it the
wrong way or your findings arenot valid.
Hopefully we did a good jobBecause you know how those
things work.
Right Errors?
Brian (33:04):
Oh yeah, oh sure.
Steve (33:06):
But nobody argues with it and we get through it, and so
that's why that AASH it's,that's why that actual resource,
not moniker is is really.
You know, it's.
Brian (33:16):
It means a lot in our business yeah I mean I'm sure it
helps, but, like I think, what?
When you're dealing with thosekind of situations, I think it's
more you than it is theaccreditation, because you have
the experience and, like I, youknow, kim is just hanging on
every word.
She's just trusting everythingyou have to say.
So I think that probably yourcommunication is helping a lot
(33:38):
in accepting what you have tosay.
Steve (33:40):
This might get edited out , but there's a saying here on
here we get in compaction beefs,particularly on asphalt, once
in a while, right, and I'venever lost a compaction beef.
The thing is, you know, youtake your nuclear gauges out
until you're in your relativecompaction of the gauge.
You show a subflow thecontractor always and there's
resolution to go cut cores.
(34:01):
That's always a resolution andI say fine, but the way we wrote
the spec was that the engineergets to pick the cores, core
locations.
It's not random.
It is not random.
Oh wow, and we never lose acompaction beef.
Because I will go pick thecores and I am an old asphalt
guy.
My master's degree it wassomething, my thesis had
(34:24):
something to do with asphaltpaving.
I got a clue we never lose, wenever, ever lose.
And because and I say that youknow that sounds awful, it does
sound, but have faith in ourresults.
If we've been out there andwe've done more testing than
necessary and we've justdetermined that you're
(34:46):
noncompliant, I have great faithin my people and procedure and
equipment because it's beenmaintained, calibrated, the
people are trained, they'retested, we're accredited, we
understand, I have great.
You don't have to prove it tome with cores, we've already
done it, and so I just go out,and you know then we don't lose,
we just don't lose.
I'm not interested in anybodywinning, but we're not going to
(35:10):
lose.
Brian (35:10):
Well, and if somebody really wanted to press you and
take other cores, they couldcertainly do that, but they're
not going to get anywhere, I'msure.
Steve (35:18):
Oh no, because by the rules, this is public works.
By the rules, my lab is the paylab.
So one of the things that'scome along lately is the FHWA
has begun pushing morecontractor quality control
programs onto grants, which is agreat thing.
Now we can have a longconversation about contractor
(35:40):
quality control, but it's agreat thing.
But at the end of the day,there's also quality assurance.
That goes on and that's us.
We're the owner's lab, we'rethe quality assurance lab.
We may not sample at the samerate, but the pay gauge.
This usually comes out ofcompaction Compaction of
proctors usually but the pay labis our lab.
You can do what you're going todo, but if you want to get paid
(36:01):
for it, you better be payingattention to our results, and
that brings the quality controllabs into compliance pretty
quick.
It snaps their heads around andbrings them to the table and
doing good work pretty quick aswell, because they can't be
telling their client thatthey're good when they're not,
and we do.
I mean this is, this is not.
(36:23):
I don't want to.
I don't want to say that we'reall imperious and you know we
don't listen to you or whatyou're doing.
By all means.
We have discussions about thisstuff, we talk about it and we
look at things and but what wefind most cases is that we're
doing it the right way, someoneelse is doing it the wrong way
and that makes a difference inyour test results, and so we,
you know.
So that says we're a little, weare a little bit imperious,
(36:45):
that's just.
That's kind of me too.
Brian (36:46):
So that's all right, it's important work.
You know you're protecting theinvestments and the
infrastructure of the city.
Right, that's pretty bigresponsibility Indeed indeed.
So what has been the mostdifficult part of your job?
You know?
20 years in public works uh it,you know, protecting the
(37:10):
integrity of this infrastructurein seattle, uh what, what's the
biggest challenge, or what'swhat was the?
Steve (37:18):
hardest thing that is.
That is a great question.
I have to.
I, yeah, cause I think my jobhas been great.
Right, it's, every problem isalready solved and I and no one,
no one thing makes your lifemiserable.
I think the thing that, uh,yeah, I.
So the old thing is that whenyou go on a project, there are
(37:39):
there you can have, you can havequality, you can have money and
you can be quality.
Scope, scheduled right, picktwo, pick two right.
That's the old adage and that'spretty close to true.
Scheduled has driven because inpublic sector work there's
always politics right Meaning sowe're going to go into your
(38:01):
neighborhood and we're going todo this thing and we're going to
be done by this date.
If it all goes sideways and thequality isn't there, schedule
tends to jump up and say we haveto be out of here by this date.
We're going to have to acceptsomething less, and I find that
highly annoying.
I always say I'm the qualityguy.
I think my job.
I always say I'm the qualityguy Because this comes a bit
(38:24):
from my background in pavementmanagement on airports, meaning
how long can we make somethinglast?
And it's also an environmentalthing, it's a carbon thing as
well, because the least greenthing we can do is be tearing
things up because we didn'tbuild them well and we have to
replace them earlier thanplanned.
That's not really green, and somy perspective is always from
(38:47):
that standpoint and also thestandpoint of the value for
public money spent is is itgoing to last as long as we
intend it to last?
And sometimes schedules gets inthe way and you don't get to do
the things that you want to dobecause they have to be done
quickly or on schedule.
For me that's a hard pill toswallow because, okay, so it's
going to take a week longer.
(39:09):
That's not politically acceptedand that ripples down through
the construction manager for themanager, people all the way to
the top.
It goes down and up and downand up and it resonates.
I've had some reallyinteresting conversations with
people saying I don't care aboutyour schedule, I don't care, I
don't care, I think the qualityneeds to be this and um, I don't
win all those arguments.
Sometimes I win and we get, weget things right.
(39:30):
Lots of times I'd lose and it'svery hard for me to pill, for
me to swallow.
Brian (39:42):
Um, that's just, that's just the way I'm built, that's
just me.
Yeah, you're made for this, uh,okay, so I don't want to be too
negative.
Let's, let's, uh, and, and I'llsay end.
But maybe kim will have anotherquestion to mix in here too.
But, uh, what has been the mostrewarding part of your job?
Like what?
Was there a certain event or aproject that you see?
(40:02):
No, no, none of that none ofthat.
Steve (40:04):
It is absolutely the people I have worked with,
absolutely the people I haveworked with, um, the people
who've worked for me.
I can't say enough about them,I just can't.
They've been fantastic people,fantastic people to work with.
The people I've worked for,generally speaking, fantastic
people, fantastic people to workwith.
The people I've worked for,generally speaking, have been
fantastic.
The people I work with in otherdepartments have been fantastic
(40:25):
.
I have worked with a lot ofsmart, dedicated, intense,
good-meaning people and that isthe rewarding part, the part
that we are not this is a hardpart of the current political
situation in this country that'sreally hard for me to swallow
is okay.
There's a lot of dead meat in inum government.
Meet the people I know.
(40:47):
Work with the people I know,see how hard they work and and
and what their thought processesare and how they go to work
every day and what they want todo for the people they work for.
Spend the money the right way.
Um, it's, that is.
That is the thing.
It's the people.
It's always the people I mean.
I've done a lot of jobs in mylife.
I've done a lot of great things, really cool things From a
(41:11):
professional standpoint.
Yeah, that's awesome, but atthe end of the day it comes down
to us.
It comes down to Brian and Kim.
It comes down to yeah, it'sjust the people.
I'm really rewarded havingworked with some really smart,
intelligent, nice, well-meaningpeople.
Brian (41:28):
I'm sure a lot of them have the same thing to say about
you over your career.
Steve (41:34):
There might be a few out there.
In fact, I'm disappointed.
Not everybody's going to likeyou, not everybody's going to
hate you.
Brian (41:42):
Steve, thank you so much for your time today and thank
you for engaging with us at theTechnical Exchange and for
always being willing to debatethings with me about standards
and quality, and it's been agreat relationship.
Like I said to you when we werethere, I wish I had gotten to
meet you years ago so we couldhave had more of this going on
(42:04):
over the years.
So I feel like I had a missedopportunity there to get more of
this kind of interaction withyou over the years, but I
appreciate what I had.
Steve (42:13):
There should be a few people like me out there.
I mean, there's characters inthe business.
You know I'm just one of them,you know.
You know I don't know ifengaging you 15 years ago would
have done you any good or not,but I mean, some of your quality
analysts have certainly paidthe price.
You know and Brian, I'll tellyou some of the stuff we talked
about.
You know, because you guys arehere the standards, right, the
(42:35):
standard says this is what we'regoing to look at, and sometimes
that's not quite right, youknow.
I mean there's a couple ofthings I have in mind because,
because standards are written bypeople with PhDs, Sometimes we
don't understand it.
You know, some of the things wedo don't need to be that exact
or that much that that close.
We can get by with somethingyou know, like Platon's being
(42:58):
need to get that flat.
Do you know how hard that is toget, how much it costs you to
get that sort of thing?
And then, does it matter?
And can you show me the datathat says it does matter?
I mean things like that that itwould be nice if that resource
would advocate for us and lookat some of those things and say,
(43:18):
look, here's the argument we'regetting from our people, and
you're on ASTM I know you are,because I already gave you you
know hell about that one youknow kind of advocate for us
down those lines with ASTM andAASHTO on their standards and
say, you know, look, these arethe things that really matter,
these are the things that reallydon't, because you guys
understand as much as we do and,in a lot of cases, more more so
(43:44):
.
Um, but I also understand whereyou're at.
You're in the middle, you'reabsolutely dead square in the
middle and and it's not your jobto advocate for anybody.
Brian (43:49):
But that's kind of that's kind of where I'm at I, I, I
like that and I do think thatthat's been a a good opportunity
for us to to be in the middleand to communicate.
And really that goes back toyour point about being good
communicators.
It's really incumbent upon usto do a good job communicating
with those committees,communicating with our customers
(44:11):
, trying to bring along thiscontinual improvement mindset
and try to make sense of thethings that don't make sense to
people, try to get reasonabletolerances.
That's been that.
That's a journey I've been onthe last several years is try to
talk some sense into somepeople about some of these
requirements.
But you know there's alwaysthat assumption out there that
(44:33):
oh, it must have been importantto be in there in the first
place, and I would say it's justwhat they had when they wrote
the standard.
Steve (44:44):
Exactly, exactly, exactly .
And the other thing when yousit on ASTM committees,
particularly ASTM committees,you can see there's agendas in
those committees.
It's like anything else, it'slike any other body there are
agendas and being able to winnowout the agendas and over my
career, the thing I wish hadworked a little bit for somebody
like Lafarge or Holson orsomebody like that, where I
(45:06):
could attend more ASTM meetingsin person.
Because to really argue out inthe committee some of those
things that I see, my reputationon some of those committees, on
CO9 in particular, is notparticularly good because I will
vote a negative on almostanything.
If I think it's not right, Iwill rescind it.
If they can make the case, Idon't have a problem taking my
(45:28):
word back.
But I will say no and I'll sayshow me why, tell me, why does
this make a difference and howdoes this affect the consumer?
Not just the two peopleinvolved in that transaction,
but how does this affect theconsumer out there, the guy who
doesn't know as much about thesethings as we know.
(45:48):
I lose a lot of those, I win afew, I lose a few.
There you go.
That's all part of the process.
At the end of the day.
I think we're pretty close toright.
We're not exactly, but we'repretty close to right.
We're not exactly, we're prettyclose to right.
Brian (46:03):
We'll keep getting closer , yeah, but all right, well, hey
, thanks again.
Thank you, I appreciate yourtime and happy retirement, yep.
Hope you enjoy exercising theother side of your brain for the
next many, many years.
Steve (46:16):
I am Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Oh good, thank you.
Engaging with you guys isalways fun, so thank you.
Thank you so much for over theyears.
Kim (46:27):
It's been a great ride, man .
Here's your quality quick tipof the day.
A common problem with QMSdocuments and records is that
they're inaccurate.
Be careful not to copy theexamples in R18 verbatim or
borrow information from otherorganizations.
You probably do things at leasta little differently.
You can learn more by going tothe ReUniversity section of our
(46:48):
website and check out the Roadto Developing an Effective QMS
articles for more information onthis topic.
Thanks for listening to AASHTOResource Q&A.
If you'd like to be a guest orjust submit a question, send us
an email at podcast ataashtoresourceorg, or call Brian
at 240-436-4820.
(47:10):
For other news and relatedcontent, check out AASHTO
Resources social media accountsor go to aashtoresourceorg.
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