November 25, 2025 • 22 mins
Get a glimpse inside November’s Virtual Technical Exchange’s Mastering Laboratory Management Panel Discussion. In this episode, we take clips from that session to share insights from industry professionals Zack McKay, Joseph Kerstetter, Kishore Kotha, and Seth Winters.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Welcome to Ashto Resource QA.
We're taking time to discussconstruction materials, testing,
and inspection with people inthe know.
From exploring testing problemsand solutions to laboratory best
practices and qualitymanagement, we're covering
topics important to you.
SPEAKER_03 (00:18):
Appreciate you all joining me today.
This is going to be a paneldiscussion, and I will go over
the rules next.
So I've got four paneliststoday.
They're going to talk aboutdifferent aspects of laboratory
(00:38):
management.
Think that they are the masterof laboratory management.
We're all just practicing whatwe do to get better.
(01:00):
And so a lot of the things thatthey're going to be relating to
you are going to be probablyfamiliar to you.
And you've probably experiencedsome of these things yourselves.
But hopefully together we can uhcome to some understanding and
maybe take some of otherpeople's experiences home with
us.
Uh and then we can all continueto improve together.
(01:23):
So they're going to be sharingtheir experiences, and you are
going to be uh sharing some ofyour experiences, but also
asking questions.
And we'll this this will beactually very similar to the
podcast.
We talked about the podcast, andI thought about it earlier.
If we should just start it likethe podcast and then just have
(01:44):
it out there.
But uh we'll see.
We'll see how it goes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Maybe it'll happen.
It might happen.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
It might happen.
Yeah, we have been known toreuse material.
Uh you don't get over 150episodes without reusing some
material.
But that's okay.
All right.
So here's our panelists.
We've got Zach McKay.
Uh he's a laboratory operationsmanager from Blankenship,
Asphalt Tech and Training.
Uh, he is from Richmond.
(02:09):
Well, he is in Richmond,Kentucky, uh by way of
Mississauga, Ontario, I believe.
Is that right, Zach?
SPEAKER_04 (02:17):
Close, uh Brandon.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
All right.
Close.
Um, next we've got JoeKirstetter.
He's from Tennessee DOT, that isin Nashville.
Uh, he's a laboratory processcontrol team lead.
Then we've got Keyshore Kotha,uh, principal from ECS in
Chantilly, Virginia.
And finally, we have SethWinter, laboratory manager slash
(02:42):
QMS internal auditor fromTerracon in Cheyenne, Wyoming.
So these panelists all have uhdifferent roles and different
experience that they can sharewith you today.
Um and I wanted to ask you guys,well, we'll we'll get into this.
So we have uh different topicsof laboratory management that
we're gonna cover.
(03:04):
And each one of the panelists isgoing to address some of these
things, and then the otherpanelists can chime in, or you
can chime in as an attendee orask some follow-up questions.
Uh so Zach is gonna talk firstabout material sample handling
and preparation.
Take it away, Zach.
SPEAKER_04 (03:23):
All right.
Thanks, Brian.
So a little quick bit about mybackground.
I've got uh about 15 years ofexperience in laboratory
testing, uh, working at theAsphalt Institute and now as
laboratory operations managerwith the BAT lab.
And uh over the years, uhsampling and how we manage those
(03:45):
samples is is is extremelycritical.
Um, one to make sure that wehave good representation of the
material that we're actuallytesting, um, because without
that foundation of a goodrepresentative sample, all your
results uh hinge on on getting arepresentative sample.
(04:05):
So we want to make sure that,you know, obviously uh when we
grab a sample from a stockpileor grab it from the back of a
truck, you know, in asphalt, wedeal uh typically with you know
hot materials.
So we're we're always cognizantabout safety as well.
But um when we're grabbing thosesamples, we want to make sure
(04:26):
that uh we avoid you know anyareas of segregation uh that
we're we're sampling from a goodportion or a good part of the
mix or or aggregate sample aswe're as we're sampling.
So that is uh some of thecritical things, you know, when
we're trying to get arepresentative sample.
(04:47):
Um and and of course, we'realways trying to follow the most
current and up-to-date uhprocedures when it comes to uh
that process, uh whether that'sthrough the ASTM or AFSTO
standards, um, and making surethat our uh uh personnel is also
adequately trained uh and andprepared uh for make for
(05:09):
grabbing those samples and uhwhether it's uh taking it from
the field or taking it from uheven in our own laboratory
process, how we handle thosesamples is is very important
because uh any influence inthose samples can change those
test results.
Um another critical item that uhwe like to adhere to is making
(05:32):
sure we have proper chain ofcustody when we're sampling uh
sort of the the the five W's,who, what, when, where, and why.
Why we're you know who'sgrabbing the sample, what are
they grabbing a sample from,what is that material?
Um you know, when, time of day,um uh because as you move
(05:52):
through those materials, thematerials are going to change
from uh whether you're samplingat the quarry from ledge to
ledge, from stockpile tostockpile, um, those kinds of
things.
And then where, you know, areyou sampling it from the
roadway?
Are you sampling it from back ofthe paver?
Are you sampling at theterminal?
Uh, wherever those samplinglocations, it's always important
(06:16):
to know uh that that gooddocumentation.
And then why?
Why is your purpose?
Is it for forensic analysis?
We do a lot of forensic testingwhere pavements have failed, and
we have to understand uh whywe're seeing failures.
And so having uh some of thatreasoning behind it is a good
way of uh making sure that uhthe next person to handle that
(06:38):
sample is well informed.
SPEAKER_03 (06:40):
Yeah, now Zach, do you have any tips?
I mean, when you have a lot ofsamples going on in your lab, uh
how do you keep them organized?
Because there might be ones thatare that are, let's say at a at
an asphalt mixture lab, youmight have ones that are spread
out.
You may have ones that are incontainers in the oven heating
up, you may have ones that arein between, you may have
(07:01):
different technicians working onthem.
How do you keep it all sorted sothat things don't get mixed up?
SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
Yeah, so we have obviously our storage areas um
where we keep all of our bulkaggregates um and as well as a
couple of storage unitsoff-site, but you know, um, you
know, having a having a quant uhmaterial like that uh that takes
up a lot of volume and space, wehave to maintain that.
So we we keep identif properidentification of those uh
(07:26):
through our through our system.
Um but when we are handlingthose samples, uh each sample is
tagged, labeled.
Um we have note cards that weput on every single sample that
goes into the oven, whether it'sthe raw aggregate, the binder
sample, or the the mix thatwe're putting together.
Everything has a trackable ID onit so that we can keep track, as
(07:50):
well as the replicate number.
Um, and and then that allfilters back to our quality, our
our our management system tohandle those samples.
So uh everything is ID'd uh thatthat is in the lab whenever
we're testing samples, and andthat ID tracks back to the
project, um, and and that waywe're not uh losing samples
(08:12):
throughout the process.
SPEAKER_03 (08:13):
Okay, all right.
Well, Zach, thank you very much.
We're gonna move on to Joseph.
Now, Joseph's gonna talk aboutDOT's per perspective on quality
assurance and compliance.
SPEAKER_05 (08:26):
The big thing um that I kind of wanted to talk
about is is kind of that that uhsecond part as well, uh,
maintaining laboratoryaccreditation.
Um it's it's kind of a um uhchicken and egg kind of thing.
We we're told we have to do it.
And we in turn end up tellingprivate labs you've got to do
(08:48):
this.
But in reality, nobody should betelling any of us to do this
because you get way more out ofit than you put in.
It's is hands down the bestthing that we have done over the
years is getting more involvedwith our accrediting body, in
this case, hashto resource andCCRL.
Um, we have learned so much, andeverything that we uh get out of
(09:14):
our accreditation, out oftalking to, coming to
discussions like this, um uhjust having a uh root cause
analysis going through, goingback and forth after an
assessment.
Uh, you learn so much from that.
And that's what we should be,that's the mentality we should
take from accreditation.
We're not doing it because we'vebeen told to.
(09:36):
Uh, we're doing it because we'retrying to make ourselves better.
We are trying to get quality outof our program that in turn
improves the quality of, at theend of the day, our
infrastructure.
Because that's why us DOTs arehere is is to further the
infrastructure of our country.
And that's the reason why werely on on the independent labs,
(09:56):
the contractors, the independentlabs, all of y'all as well.
So just it's just that littlesense of pride in the fact that,
yeah, I'm I'm accredited and I'mdoing it because I want to,
because I want to be better.
Um, with that Justin, I'm gonnastop you for a second.
SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
We I I appreciate you saying that.
We got the same thing out of it.
Um, we we get better at what wedo by having interactions with
the laboratories and finding outwhat experiences you guys have.
Yeah.
Uh so it's nice to hear thatit's reciprocal.
SPEAKER_05 (10:27):
Yeah, yes.
Uh it was a big um, it's a it'sa little bit of a culture
change.
Uh that's something that's bigaround in T Dot right now.
Um, we have an initiative, areorganization going through
called Epic, Empowering People,Influencing Culture.
Uh, that's what myself and myboss, Mike Doran, try to
influence our culture, is just,yeah, we're we're doing this to
(10:48):
make ourselves better.
It's it's that quality part.
And quality is only determinedby the customer.
That's that's who gets todetermine whether a product is
quality or not, is the customer.
It's not us doing the testing orus putting down the roadway.
It's the people who end updriving on it every day.
SPEAKER_03 (11:05):
So um, any any questions for Joseph?
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
I actually had a question.
So no, so this is gonna be likea podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (11:13):
Um, you're gonna steal all the good questions.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
I'm gonna steal all the good questions if no one's
no one's typing it in.
So I'm gonna just go ahead andask.
But I was curious, um, Joseph,about how like if you can give
an example of one of the waysyou are trying to spread that
quality mindset uh and like youwere talking about with
accreditation of how like youwant to do better.
Is there some give a specificexample of things that you've
(11:36):
been doing to try to that haveworked in trying to spearhead
that change and culture shift?
SPEAKER_05 (11:42):
I think I think the big thing is to uh shift focus
away from the idea because theidea existed um when I was
working in a different lab whenI was a technician, that every
time Ash O Resource or C CRLcame out, the assessors are out
were here to find something.
That was the always that wasalways the running mentality of
(12:02):
all the technicians that thathad to go through that was well,
they're gonna find something.
Let's let's give them somethingto find or something like that.
You know, they all had thatmentality of they're out to get
us.
Uh and that, if you can breakthat and turn that into a
they're not out to get you,they're out to make sure that to
make you better.
(12:22):
Uh and you can bring thatin-house too.
Um, if if I'm walking around thelaboratories, I'm not looking
for somebody, and I'm notlooking to get somebody in
trouble.
I'm looking to see where we'reum maybe not doing quite as well
as we could be.
And if we change something, thenagain, that's a uh going in the
direction of the rightdirection.
That's that's uh that qualitymindset.
(12:45):
Um and really that's what shethat that's what I found to be
the most useful thing that thathappened over the last decade
was breaking that mindset ofsomebody's always out to get me
or somebody's always out to getme in trouble.
Um that is not what my positionis, and that's not what you know
accreditation's about.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
So thanks, Joseph.
Next, well, we are gonna go toKeyshore.
So the the the the last two umpanelists kind of are gonna be
approaching these thislaboratory management uh issue
from uh different perspectives.
So Keyshore is very heavy onprocess controls.
(13:27):
So he's gonna talk to us aboutoptimizing workflows and uh some
of the things he's doing as acorporate quality manager and uh
principal with ECS.
Keyshore?
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
Sure.
Thank you, Brian, Kim, and myfellow panels and uh attendees.
Uh uh So again, operationalefficiency, such a kind of broad
term, right?
Uh the goal is, you know, thisis you're trying to maximize
output while minimizingresources, which is such a loose
definition.
(13:57):
You know, in our context, uh,when we say maximizing output,
uh, you know, there are uh thekey, the key quality objectives
must be met, which is, you know,uh as Joseph and Jack mentioned,
you know, the testing must be instrict adherence to the
standards, uh reports arecomplete in compliance with the
(14:18):
reporting requirements, uh, theinternal policies and procedures
are being met within yourcompany, and ultimately the goal
is to deliver the reports to theclient in a timely manner as
promised.
So, you know, uh every lab isunique.
You know, there is kind of noone-size-fits-all type approach
(14:40):
because labs vary by thegeography, the size, the scale,
the scope of service offerings.
So, in a general sense, thereare a handful of factors that
can be implemented to establishsome efficiency.
Uh one is, you know, again, uh,as Brian mentioned, you know, uh
streamlining the workflows.
(15:02):
What I mean by that is you'retrying to standardize the
processes.
And by standardizing processes,it can uh help reduce the errors
and establish consistencyacross, you know.
Let's say uh, you know, forexample, uh the sample
management or the equipmentmanagement or the data
processing, report management,all these systems, the processes
(15:24):
have entails various steps.
You know, it has to happen in asequential manner, you know, of
the preceding step has to be,you know, complete before you
proceed to the next step.
And uh one of the things uh youknow really helped is a little
plug-in for Astro Resources thatuh ECS uh has been uh enrolled
(15:45):
in Astro Resources corporate QMSuh program, which has been a
great catalyst for us.
And we've been participating inthis uh for over six years, and
that has been like a top-downapproach where we were able to
establish uh policies andprocedures because our company
(16:07):
is growing, and uh you know,there's a lot of offices
throughout, you know, throughoutthe whole country.
By uh standardizing thoseprocesses, policies and
procedures, we were able toreally establish again
consistency, which there isimprovements, but we're not
there yet.
So some of the things what wetry to do in our corporate uh QA
(16:30):
team is to, you know, thestandardize uh templates for the
reports, the equipmentcalibration forms, uh, you know,
building systems to enhance theproductivity.
Uh, you know, it has been agreat help.
We've been making some greatprogress.
So if there are any firms outthere, you know, I strongly do
(16:51):
encourage to participate in theAstral Resources QMS corporate
QMS program.
SPEAKER_03 (16:57):
Well, thank you so much, Keyshore, for sharing your
experience.
And it was insightful despitewhat you think.
Um next, so we talked aboutoperational efficiency.
We're gonna get into some of thepersonnel management here with
uh Seth Winter.
Uh so Seth, uh please talk to usabout leadership and staff
development.
SPEAKER_02 (17:17):
Absolutely.
I'm the type I'm gonna go bulletby bullet, and that's how I like
things organized.
I don't free your range all overthe place.
Um, I would say that in thebeginning, it does come down to
recruiting because you do needthe staff to do the job, and you
need the staff before youdetermine who is the quality
staff.
From recruiting for the lab, andI'm just gonna say this from my
(17:40):
experience, being in the labfrom all the other places I've
worked, there is never more amelange of individual
personality types, skill sets,and attitudes that vary so much,
but come together for onespecific goal, whether it's
quality-based, which you hope itis, or strictly free market
(18:01):
business based.
Either way, there's seldom twolike personalities in a lab is
one thing I've noticed betweenthis and auditing our other
offices.
I typically find that withrecruiting, it's kind of a
three-tier type of approach.
Direct recruiting by putting thejob out there and seeing if
(18:22):
you're gonna cast a wide net toget someone in.
Um kind of the second one wouldbe kind of gauging the skill
sets of individuals we've hiredfor, say, something else,
primarily field.
And the third is just dumb luck.
Um, I have some guys working inmy lab right now that were field
guys.
(18:42):
And for a number of situationsand circumstances, they ended up
uh being participants in the labwith me before I was their
manager.
We worked alongside.
And I was fortunate and gotlucky because uh each one of
those individuals that came infrom that aspect of it um
brought a very unique uh skillset into the lab that benefited
(19:06):
the whole.
So as it currently stands, I'vegot three full-time staff
members.
Two of those were intakes fromour field division due to
circumstance.
One was a direct recruit.
We stole him as a QC managerfrom one of our primary
suppliers.
I'm not sure how they feel aboutus now, but it is what it is.
It's all fair.
So for me, recruiting that isthe big one is uh the methods of
(19:30):
recruiting for the lab vary asmuch as the type of people you
have in the lab.
Um, just because it's not a onesize fits all in any way, shape,
or form when it comes to laboperations.
As far as training and skilldevelopment, uh what I first
like to see anyone coming in umthat has no experience is
(19:51):
starting them out on the basics,developing their acumen, their
attention to detail, and then uhexposing them to greater and
greater and greater things.
I am of the opinion thatregardless of your staff size, I
would rather have uh four guystrained in everything, that
redundancy, two is one, one isnone, than have one guy at the
(20:14):
top with everything, one guybelow that's just a little less,
and then two guys that have thebare minimum.
Um, unfortunately for me, myguys, they're always eager to
learn more and more and more.
And developing that skill setisn't just about teaching uh
newer and newer things.
It's also uh identifying theskill sets they had before, like
(20:34):
let's say they came from anotherlab or a producer or something
in quality control.
Uh you see how they're doingthings and you either praise how
they've been doing it or younotice subtle intricacies in how
they're doing it that might falloutside of uh what the test
procedure should be and notbeing afraid to speak up to
that.
(20:55):
Um, for someone that has noexperience whatsoever, it's
developing their mindset andskill level while also
eliminating their personalprejudices.
I can personally say people I'veworked with in the lab, they
read documentations from sayAshto.
And, you know, my background iscriminal justice.
So I'm used to reading verylong, detailed items, whereas
(21:18):
other people look at things fromAshto, C CRL, things like that,
and they end up having thismindset of, well, I don't
understand this or well, I don'tagree with this.
But then it's, you know,teaching them why it is so
important.
Um, so that's one of those onesis every individual has a
different need for training andskill set development.
(21:39):
Again, uh, nothing is uniform.
Quality is the thing that'suniform at the end of the day.
That is the one main goal.
Uh gotta branch out and be ableto meet people on their
individual skill sets as theyare in the best way to develop
them.
SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
Thank you guys so much.
Uh, appreciate your time and andattention to detail.
Thanks, everybody.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (22:04):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
Thanks for listening to Ashto Resource QA.
If you'd like to be a guest orjust submit a question, send us
an email at podcast atashtoresource.org.
Or call Brian at 240-436-4820.
For other news and relatedcontent, check out Ashtoe
Resources social media accountsor go to Ashto Resource dot org.
Welcome to Ashto Resource QA.
We're taking time to discussconstruction materials, testing,
and inspection with people inthe know.
From exploring testing problemsand solutions to laboratory best
practices and qualitymanagement, we're covering
topics important to you.
SPEAKER_03 (00:18):
Appreciate you all joining me today.
This is going to be a paneldiscussion, and I will go over
the rules next.
So I've got four paneliststoday.
They're going to talk aboutdifferent aspects of laboratory
(00:38):
management.
Think that they are the masterof laboratory management.
We're all just practicing whatwe do to get better.
(01:00):
And so a lot of the things thatthey're going to be relating to
you are going to be probablyfamiliar to you.
And you've probably experiencedsome of these things yourselves.
But hopefully together we can uhcome to some understanding and
maybe take some of otherpeople's experiences home with
us.
Uh and then we can all continueto improve together.
(01:23):
So they're going to be sharingtheir experiences, and you are
going to be uh sharing some ofyour experiences, but also
asking questions.
And we'll this this will beactually very similar to the
podcast.
We talked about the podcast, andI thought about it earlier.
If we should just start it likethe podcast and then just have
(01:44):
it out there.
But uh we'll see.
We'll see how it goes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
Maybe it'll happen.
It might happen.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
It might happen.
Yeah, we have been known toreuse material.
Uh you don't get over 150episodes without reusing some
material.
But that's okay.
All right.
So here's our panelists.
We've got Zach McKay.
Uh he's a laboratory operationsmanager from Blankenship,
Asphalt Tech and Training.
Uh, he is from Richmond.
(02:09):
Well, he is in Richmond,Kentucky, uh by way of
Mississauga, Ontario, I believe.
Is that right, Zach?
SPEAKER_04 (02:17):
Close, uh Brandon.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
All right.
Close.
Um, next we've got JoeKirstetter.
He's from Tennessee DOT, that isin Nashville.
Uh, he's a laboratory processcontrol team lead.
Then we've got Keyshore Kotha,uh, principal from ECS in
Chantilly, Virginia.
And finally, we have SethWinter, laboratory manager slash
(02:42):
QMS internal auditor fromTerracon in Cheyenne, Wyoming.
So these panelists all have uhdifferent roles and different
experience that they can sharewith you today.
Um and I wanted to ask you guys,well, we'll we'll get into this.
So we have uh different topicsof laboratory management that
we're gonna cover.
(03:04):
And each one of the panelists isgoing to address some of these
things, and then the otherpanelists can chime in, or you
can chime in as an attendee orask some follow-up questions.
Uh so Zach is gonna talk firstabout material sample handling
and preparation.
Take it away, Zach.
SPEAKER_04 (03:23):
All right.
Thanks, Brian.
So a little quick bit about mybackground.
I've got uh about 15 years ofexperience in laboratory
testing, uh, working at theAsphalt Institute and now as
laboratory operations managerwith the BAT lab.
And uh over the years, uhsampling and how we manage those
(03:45):
samples is is is extremelycritical.
Um, one to make sure that wehave good representation of the
material that we're actuallytesting, um, because without
that foundation of a goodrepresentative sample, all your
results uh hinge on on getting arepresentative sample.
(04:05):
So we want to make sure that,you know, obviously uh when we
grab a sample from a stockpileor grab it from the back of a
truck, you know, in asphalt, wedeal uh typically with you know
hot materials.
So we're we're always cognizantabout safety as well.
But um when we're grabbing thosesamples, we want to make sure
(04:26):
that uh we avoid you know anyareas of segregation uh that
we're we're sampling from a goodportion or a good part of the
mix or or aggregate sample aswe're as we're sampling.
So that is uh some of thecritical things, you know, when
we're trying to get arepresentative sample.
(04:47):
Um and and of course, we'realways trying to follow the most
current and up-to-date uhprocedures when it comes to uh
that process, uh whether that'sthrough the ASTM or AFSTO
standards, um, and making surethat our uh uh personnel is also
adequately trained uh and andprepared uh for make for
(05:09):
grabbing those samples and uhwhether it's uh taking it from
the field or taking it from uheven in our own laboratory
process, how we handle thosesamples is is very important
because uh any influence inthose samples can change those
test results.
Um another critical item that uhwe like to adhere to is making
(05:32):
sure we have proper chain ofcustody when we're sampling uh
sort of the the the five W's,who, what, when, where, and why.
Why we're you know who'sgrabbing the sample, what are
they grabbing a sample from,what is that material?
Um you know, when, time of day,um uh because as you move
(05:52):
through those materials, thematerials are going to change
from uh whether you're samplingat the quarry from ledge to
ledge, from stockpile tostockpile, um, those kinds of
things.
And then where, you know, areyou sampling it from the
roadway?
Are you sampling it from back ofthe paver?
Are you sampling at theterminal?
Uh, wherever those samplinglocations, it's always important
(06:16):
to know uh that that gooddocumentation.
And then why?
Why is your purpose?
Is it for forensic analysis?
We do a lot of forensic testingwhere pavements have failed, and
we have to understand uh whywe're seeing failures.
And so having uh some of thatreasoning behind it is a good
way of uh making sure that uhthe next person to handle that
(06:38):
sample is well informed.
SPEAKER_03 (06:40):
Yeah, now Zach, do you have any tips?
I mean, when you have a lot ofsamples going on in your lab, uh
how do you keep them organized?
Because there might be ones thatare that are, let's say at a at
an asphalt mixture lab, youmight have ones that are spread
out.
You may have ones that are incontainers in the oven heating
up, you may have ones that arein between, you may have
(07:01):
different technicians working onthem.
How do you keep it all sorted sothat things don't get mixed up?
SPEAKER_04 (07:06):
Yeah, so we have obviously our storage areas um
where we keep all of our bulkaggregates um and as well as a
couple of storage unitsoff-site, but you know, um, you
know, having a having a quant uhmaterial like that uh that takes
up a lot of volume and space, wehave to maintain that.
So we we keep identif properidentification of those uh
(07:26):
through our through our system.
Um but when we are handlingthose samples, uh each sample is
tagged, labeled.
Um we have note cards that weput on every single sample that
goes into the oven, whether it'sthe raw aggregate, the binder
sample, or the the mix thatwe're putting together.
Everything has a trackable ID onit so that we can keep track, as
(07:50):
well as the replicate number.
Um, and and then that allfilters back to our quality, our
our our management system tohandle those samples.
So uh everything is ID'd uh thatthat is in the lab whenever
we're testing samples, and andthat ID tracks back to the
project, um, and and that waywe're not uh losing samples
(08:12):
throughout the process.
SPEAKER_03 (08:13):
Okay, all right.
Well, Zach, thank you very much.
We're gonna move on to Joseph.
Now, Joseph's gonna talk aboutDOT's per perspective on quality
assurance and compliance.
SPEAKER_05 (08:26):
The big thing um that I kind of wanted to talk
about is is kind of that that uhsecond part as well, uh,
maintaining laboratoryaccreditation.
Um it's it's kind of a um uhchicken and egg kind of thing.
We we're told we have to do it.
And we in turn end up tellingprivate labs you've got to do
(08:48):
this.
But in reality, nobody should betelling any of us to do this
because you get way more out ofit than you put in.
It's is hands down the bestthing that we have done over the
years is getting more involvedwith our accrediting body, in
this case, hashto resource andCCRL.
Um, we have learned so much, andeverything that we uh get out of
(09:14):
our accreditation, out oftalking to, coming to
discussions like this, um uhjust having a uh root cause
analysis going through, goingback and forth after an
assessment.
Uh, you learn so much from that.
And that's what we should be,that's the mentality we should
take from accreditation.
We're not doing it because we'vebeen told to.
(09:36):
Uh, we're doing it because we'retrying to make ourselves better.
We are trying to get quality outof our program that in turn
improves the quality of, at theend of the day, our
infrastructure.
Because that's why us DOTs arehere is is to further the
infrastructure of our country.
And that's the reason why werely on on the independent labs,
(09:56):
the contractors, the independentlabs, all of y'all as well.
So just it's just that littlesense of pride in the fact that,
yeah, I'm I'm accredited and I'mdoing it because I want to,
because I want to be better.
Um, with that Justin, I'm gonnastop you for a second.
SPEAKER_03 (10:12):
We I I appreciate you saying that.
We got the same thing out of it.
Um, we we get better at what wedo by having interactions with
the laboratories and finding outwhat experiences you guys have.
Yeah.
Uh so it's nice to hear thatit's reciprocal.
SPEAKER_05 (10:27):
Yeah, yes.
Uh it was a big um, it's a it'sa little bit of a culture
change.
Uh that's something that's bigaround in T Dot right now.
Um, we have an initiative, areorganization going through
called Epic, Empowering People,Influencing Culture.
Uh, that's what myself and myboss, Mike Doran, try to
influence our culture, is just,yeah, we're we're doing this to
(10:48):
make ourselves better.
It's it's that quality part.
And quality is only determinedby the customer.
That's that's who gets todetermine whether a product is
quality or not, is the customer.
It's not us doing the testing orus putting down the roadway.
It's the people who end updriving on it every day.
SPEAKER_03 (11:05):
So um, any any questions for Joseph?
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
I actually had a question.
So no, so this is gonna be likea podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (11:13):
Um, you're gonna steal all the good questions.
SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
I'm gonna steal all the good questions if no one's
no one's typing it in.
So I'm gonna just go ahead andask.
But I was curious, um, Joseph,about how like if you can give
an example of one of the waysyou are trying to spread that
quality mindset uh and like youwere talking about with
accreditation of how like youwant to do better.
Is there some give a specificexample of things that you've
(11:36):
been doing to try to that haveworked in trying to spearhead
that change and culture shift?
SPEAKER_05 (11:42):
I think I think the big thing is to uh shift focus
away from the idea because theidea existed um when I was
working in a different lab whenI was a technician, that every
time Ash O Resource or C CRLcame out, the assessors are out
were here to find something.
That was the always that wasalways the running mentality of
(12:02):
all the technicians that thathad to go through that was well,
they're gonna find something.
Let's let's give them somethingto find or something like that.
You know, they all had thatmentality of they're out to get
us.
Uh and that, if you can breakthat and turn that into a
they're not out to get you,they're out to make sure that to
make you better.
(12:22):
Uh and you can bring thatin-house too.
Um, if if I'm walking around thelaboratories, I'm not looking
for somebody, and I'm notlooking to get somebody in
trouble.
I'm looking to see where we'reum maybe not doing quite as well
as we could be.
And if we change something, thenagain, that's a uh going in the
direction of the rightdirection.
That's that's uh that qualitymindset.
(12:45):
Um and really that's what shethat that's what I found to be
the most useful thing that thathappened over the last decade
was breaking that mindset ofsomebody's always out to get me
or somebody's always out to getme in trouble.
Um that is not what my positionis, and that's not what you know
accreditation's about.
SPEAKER_03 (13:05):
So thanks, Joseph.
Next, well, we are gonna go toKeyshore.
So the the the the last two umpanelists kind of are gonna be
approaching these thislaboratory management uh issue
from uh different perspectives.
So Keyshore is very heavy onprocess controls.
(13:27):
So he's gonna talk to us aboutoptimizing workflows and uh some
of the things he's doing as acorporate quality manager and uh
principal with ECS.
Keyshore?
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
Sure.
Thank you, Brian, Kim, and myfellow panels and uh attendees.
Uh uh So again, operationalefficiency, such a kind of broad
term, right?
Uh the goal is, you know, thisis you're trying to maximize
output while minimizingresources, which is such a loose
definition.
(13:57):
You know, in our context, uh,when we say maximizing output,
uh, you know, there are uh thekey, the key quality objectives
must be met, which is, you know,uh as Joseph and Jack mentioned,
you know, the testing must be instrict adherence to the
standards, uh reports arecomplete in compliance with the
(14:18):
reporting requirements, uh, theinternal policies and procedures
are being met within yourcompany, and ultimately the goal
is to deliver the reports to theclient in a timely manner as
promised.
So, you know, uh every lab isunique.
You know, there is kind of noone-size-fits-all type approach
(14:40):
because labs vary by thegeography, the size, the scale,
the scope of service offerings.
So, in a general sense, thereare a handful of factors that
can be implemented to establishsome efficiency.
Uh one is, you know, again, uh,as Brian mentioned, you know, uh
streamlining the workflows.
(15:02):
What I mean by that is you'retrying to standardize the
processes.
And by standardizing processes,it can uh help reduce the errors
and establish consistencyacross, you know.
Let's say uh, you know, forexample, uh the sample
management or the equipmentmanagement or the data
processing, report management,all these systems, the processes
(15:24):
have entails various steps.
You know, it has to happen in asequential manner, you know, of
the preceding step has to be,you know, complete before you
proceed to the next step.
And uh one of the things uh youknow really helped is a little
plug-in for Astro Resources thatuh ECS uh has been uh enrolled
(15:45):
in Astro Resources corporate QMSuh program, which has been a
great catalyst for us.
And we've been participating inthis uh for over six years, and
that has been like a top-downapproach where we were able to
establish uh policies andprocedures because our company
(16:07):
is growing, and uh you know,there's a lot of offices
throughout, you know, throughoutthe whole country.
By uh standardizing thoseprocesses, policies and
procedures, we were able toreally establish again
consistency, which there isimprovements, but we're not
there yet.
So some of the things what wetry to do in our corporate uh QA
(16:30):
team is to, you know, thestandardize uh templates for the
reports, the equipmentcalibration forms, uh, you know,
building systems to enhance theproductivity.
Uh, you know, it has been agreat help.
We've been making some greatprogress.
So if there are any firms outthere, you know, I strongly do
(16:51):
encourage to participate in theAstral Resources QMS corporate
QMS program.
SPEAKER_03 (16:57):
Well, thank you so much, Keyshore, for sharing your
experience.
And it was insightful despitewhat you think.
Um next, so we talked aboutoperational efficiency.
We're gonna get into some of thepersonnel management here with
uh Seth Winter.
Uh so Seth, uh please talk to usabout leadership and staff
development.
SPEAKER_02 (17:17):
Absolutely.
I'm the type I'm gonna go bulletby bullet, and that's how I like
things organized.
I don't free your range all overthe place.
Um, I would say that in thebeginning, it does come down to
recruiting because you do needthe staff to do the job, and you
need the staff before youdetermine who is the quality
staff.
From recruiting for the lab, andI'm just gonna say this from my
(17:40):
experience, being in the labfrom all the other places I've
worked, there is never more amelange of individual
personality types, skill sets,and attitudes that vary so much,
but come together for onespecific goal, whether it's
quality-based, which you hope itis, or strictly free market
(18:01):
business based.
Either way, there's seldom twolike personalities in a lab is
one thing I've noticed betweenthis and auditing our other
offices.
I typically find that withrecruiting, it's kind of a
three-tier type of approach.
Direct recruiting by putting thejob out there and seeing if
(18:22):
you're gonna cast a wide net toget someone in.
Um kind of the second one wouldbe kind of gauging the skill
sets of individuals we've hiredfor, say, something else,
primarily field.
And the third is just dumb luck.
Um, I have some guys working inmy lab right now that were field
guys.
(18:42):
And for a number of situationsand circumstances, they ended up
uh being participants in the labwith me before I was their
manager.
We worked alongside.
And I was fortunate and gotlucky because uh each one of
those individuals that came infrom that aspect of it um
brought a very unique uh skillset into the lab that benefited
(19:06):
the whole.
So as it currently stands, I'vegot three full-time staff
members.
Two of those were intakes fromour field division due to
circumstance.
One was a direct recruit.
We stole him as a QC managerfrom one of our primary
suppliers.
I'm not sure how they feel aboutus now, but it is what it is.
It's all fair.
So for me, recruiting that isthe big one is uh the methods of
(19:30):
recruiting for the lab vary asmuch as the type of people you
have in the lab.
Um, just because it's not a onesize fits all in any way, shape,
or form when it comes to laboperations.
As far as training and skilldevelopment, uh what I first
like to see anyone coming in umthat has no experience is
(19:51):
starting them out on the basics,developing their acumen, their
attention to detail, and then uhexposing them to greater and
greater and greater things.
I am of the opinion thatregardless of your staff size, I
would rather have uh four guystrained in everything, that
redundancy, two is one, one isnone, than have one guy at the
(20:14):
top with everything, one guybelow that's just a little less,
and then two guys that have thebare minimum.
Um, unfortunately for me, myguys, they're always eager to
learn more and more and more.
And developing that skill setisn't just about teaching uh
newer and newer things.
It's also uh identifying theskill sets they had before, like
(20:34):
let's say they came from anotherlab or a producer or something
in quality control.
Uh you see how they're doingthings and you either praise how
they've been doing it or younotice subtle intricacies in how
they're doing it that might falloutside of uh what the test
procedure should be and notbeing afraid to speak up to
that.
(20:55):
Um, for someone that has noexperience whatsoever, it's
developing their mindset andskill level while also
eliminating their personalprejudices.
I can personally say people I'veworked with in the lab, they
read documentations from sayAshto.
And, you know, my background iscriminal justice.
So I'm used to reading verylong, detailed items, whereas
(21:18):
other people look at things fromAshto, C CRL, things like that,
and they end up having thismindset of, well, I don't
understand this or well, I don'tagree with this.
But then it's, you know,teaching them why it is so
important.
Um, so that's one of those onesis every individual has a
different need for training andskill set development.
(21:39):
Again, uh, nothing is uniform.
Quality is the thing that'suniform at the end of the day.
That is the one main goal.
Uh gotta branch out and be ableto meet people on their
individual skill sets as theyare in the best way to develop
them.
SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
Thank you guys so much.
Uh, appreciate your time and andattention to detail.
Thanks, everybody.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (22:04):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
Thanks for listening to Ashto Resource QA.
If you'd like to be a guest orjust submit a question, send us
an email at podcast atashtoresource.org.
Or call Brian at 240-436-4820.
For other news and relatedcontent, check out Ashtoe
Resources social media accountsor go to Ashto Resource dot org.
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