A Parent's Perspective

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we

(00:23):
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tap.
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.

(00:43):
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.

SPEAKER_05 (00:52):
All right, all right.
Welcome back to anotherinstallment of ABA on Tap.
I am your very grateful co-host,Mike Rubio, along with Daniel
Lowry.
Mr.
Dan, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 (01:03):
Doing great.
Excited for today's episode.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05):
Moving right along with the parenting theme, we've
covered a couple of parentingarticles with some great
pointers, some great food forthought, great discussion, and
now we've got a parent in vivoin our studio here to discuss
her experience with ABAServices.
Dan, maybe you want to give alittle bit of a longer intro.
You were gracious enough to setthis up for us.

(01:26):
I'm very excited about theconversation.
I think we're going to learn alot.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyour thoughts here.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32):
Yeah, well, we are very fortunate and very grateful
to have Jess here joining ustoday.
Somebody that we thought couldgive a good perspective from
kind of the other side of theservice delivery sphere.
You know, we deliver theservices, but it's really hard
for us to see on the other sidekind of what it's like.
And after doing, what, 10 yearsof parent groups, as much as we

(01:54):
can kind of relate the servicesand get parental perspective, I
think we've learned as much fromthem as they've learned from us.
So continuing that trend.
Thank you so much, Jess, forjoining us today.
We're very pleased to have haveyou on board.

SPEAKER_00 (02:06):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 (02:08):
All right.
Well, let's

SPEAKER_05 (02:09):
kick right in.
Let's start at the beginning.
Yes.
So what we really want tocapture today is your parenting
experience from, I guess, yourinitial concerns through the
diagnostic process, through thenacquiring services and receiving
services and getting comfortablewith the idea of not just ABA
services, but perhaps otherservices that you were also

(02:30):
benefiting from.
And then bringing us to thecurrent day, which I think is
very very exciting.
We might be interrupted a littlebit.
We do have live children in thestudio that are occupied.
And we've had this once beforewith my daughter napping as we
recorded.
So if we take a couple pauses orwe hear some nice, pure voices

(02:52):
in the background, we'll dealwith it like parents.
So yeah, let's start from thebeginning.
Tell us a little bit about, fromthe start, what you noticed that
concerned you, what brought youto the idea of, hey, I may need
some help.
Let me have somebody take a lookhere and tell me what's going
on.

SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Okay, so my son's name is Nicholas.
He will be seven in June.
When he was a baby, he washitting all of his milestones.
He was walking at like 10months.
And then right as he got to hisfirst birthday, I just noticed
like he wasn't really interestedin like playing with other
people.
If he had his toys, he wouldalways turn his back to

(03:35):
everybody.
And then I noticed that hewasn't answering to his name.
So...
I waited just a couple weeks andthen kind of was asking other
people and then Other peoplewith kids would say, well, boys
are different.
They learn at a different pacethan girls.
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (03:53):
that is so true.
Yes.
It doesn't stop.

SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Yeah, and with a boy and a girl, I'm seeing it.
But I remember giving it acouple weeks, and then I called
the pediatrician.
So at the time, I didn't knowanything about autism.
I didn't even know what I wasthinking was autism.
So when I had called thepediatrician's office, they
asked me to come in thatafternoon with Nick.
And I thought, I must have saidsomething, because we don't get

(04:17):
same-day appointments ever.
So that was my first thought of,okay, something is going on.
So when we went in there, wespoke with the pediatrician.
She asked if I had ever heard ofthe M chart, which I said no.
We did a series of questions,and Nick was right under the
halfway point.
And I remember the pediatricianhad given me some numbers and

(04:40):
some things to follow up with,and I did not make it out of
that office without cryingbecause I was like, you just
threw this on me like a ton ofbricks, and now I have to do all
these follow-ups.
So that was kind of the startingpoint, and then we started to
receive services.
And then when he got his...
Assessment done.
He was diagnosed actually theday before his second birthday.

SPEAKER_03 (05:03):
So when you say you didn't make it out of the office
crying, was it out ofoverwhelming feeling overwhelmed
about all of the visits that youhad or was it that, oh, wow,
something may be differentactually?
It

SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
was my first thought of, one, something's wrong.
Two, I don't know anything aboutautism other than I know it's a
disability, but I don't knowanything.
And three, how am I going to dothis?
Like, what am I supposed to do?
And then I kind of felt like itwas kind of brought to me a
little not so sincerely oflike...
this is what we're thinking,this is what it could be, and

(05:38):
now you need to follow up withall of these things.
So it was hard from thebeginning, I feel like.

SPEAKER_03 (05:45):
In my parent groups a lot, I'll show the Welcome to
Holland poem, and it just talksabout somebody who planned a
trip to Italy and then goes toHolland, and then that just
difference, and not that it'sbetter or worse, it's just a
different experience.
So it sounds like that's kind ofwhat you're talking about, that
you were expecting one thing,and then it's just like
everything was thrown on you,and it's like, holy crap, what
do I do?
That's a lot.

SPEAKER_05 (06:06):
Do you think there was a different way that
pediatrician could haveapproached it in looking back
now knowing that it was a lotfor you to manage,
understandably so?
Do you look back and understandwhy it had to happen so quickly
or so suddenly?
Or do you think there's adifferent way that pediatricians
might approach it?
If you could do it again...

(06:27):
Would you change it?

SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
I think definitely they have their protocol of they
receive keywords or they receiveinformation of behaviors and
things that people or parentsare telling them.
And for me, I was saying thesethings that describe autism,
which I had never heard of.
So I think, of course, they wentthrough their protocol that day.
But I think delivering the newsto somebody...

(06:49):
it's almost like if you receivelike bad news and you're just
like, oh, I was feeling sick,but now you're telling me I have
cancer, you know, something likewhere I think it should have
been handled maybe a little morewith caution.
just a little nicer, and not so,this is what we're seeing, and
this is what we think it is, andnow you have to do all these
follow-ups, and it wasoverwhelming from the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 (07:12):
Do you feel like it was done too clinically?
Just like, oh, this is what thetest showed, and this is what he
has by, that kind of thing?
I

SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
feel like that's a lot of what it was, and I
understand they have their job,and they see so many people a
day, but...
I don't know.
For me, just trying to take thatinto consideration, I feel like
that should have been done.
But that was the starting point.
And then after that, he had hisassessments.

(07:40):
And then he did receive theservices.
Looking back, I wish it washandled a little bit different,
but the services he receivedwere amazing, and I think the
early intervention really savedhim.
That's

SPEAKER_03 (07:53):
tricky, because even in our field, at the end of the
day, it's a job for us, right?
So it's not our life that isnecessarily changed, but the
client or the patient's life ischanged significantly, and that
definitely should be dealt withthat level of sincerity and
empathy.
I think that's super important.

SPEAKER_05 (08:12):
And it's such a hard balance to strike, I imagine.
You make a good point.
There's a protocol.
They want to do this quickly.
And the more quickly they do it,the more they're going to throw
at a parent who's now concernedabout what they've seen and what
they're being told.
So that's certainly a hardbalance to strike.
Let's rewind a little bit.
You alluded to the subsequentevents.

(08:34):
So you leave the pediatrician'soffice.
There's all these follow-ups.
What happens next after thatinitial visit?

SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
So we did a follow-up with one of the
doctors.
I can't remember her name, butwe just had done a follow-up,
and at 18 months, they wereready to actually diagnose him,
and I was in severe denial, andI was like, not my baby.
He's going to grow out of this.

(09:02):
So they set up anotherappointment for when he was
about to be two, and they didthe diagnosis then.
So...
I think the first probably year,I was crying all the time.
I was sad all the time.
And I was like, how did thishappen to my baby?
It's just, I don't know, a lot.
But I think really the earlyintervention, we got that.

(09:27):
We received the ABA services.
I think he started out aroundfour days a week.
And we had that for a while.
It was four or five.
We had that for a while.
The ABA therapists were amazingwith him and consistent with
him.
So it was a good, I feel,overall experience.

SPEAKER_03 (09:45):
So you mentioned, I hate to bring it back to the
negative piece, but howemotionally draining it was for
you.
I know, Mike, that's one thingthat you're looking at pursuing
is the behavioral pediatricspiece, which we've talked about
on podcast about trying tofigure out if there's some ways
that we can preempt thatdiagnosis because that diagnosis

(10:06):
does carry a lot of weight,which we've talked about.
One thing that I remember ustalking about specifically in
the parent groups, which we'llget to later, but in general was
the level that he was diagnosedat.
I remember specifically, Iforget what level he was, and
you can or cannot talk about itif you want, but it was a more
severe level than you thought hewas, and that was something that
was really traumatizing to you,and I was like, don't worry

(10:27):
about it, but...
I'm not a parent.
So I don't know, Jess, if youwouldn't mind talking a little
bit about that experience.

SPEAKER_00 (10:35):
So at 18 months and at two years old, you don't
develop skills enough to mastera level really of play or
building or, you know, reallydoing any of these levels of
anything.
So when he was 18 months, whenthey did the first assessment
and then when he was two yearsold, it was more of like a play

(10:55):
session for like five hours forhim.
And they put him at like a leveltwo and it was like a borderline
three and I thought this is notright and I remember calling the
doctor back and I was having awhole conversation with her and
she said I remember her askingme what would this change if the
diagnosis on paper was a levelone versus a level two or a

(11:18):
level three and I said because Iknow this is not right and I
know this so she said I Well, wecould leave it at the level that
it's at and the diagnosis thatit's at, and he would still get
the same services as he would ifhe were a level one at two years
old.
So I said, okay, fine.
I know it's not ripe and I'llleave it alone for now, but it's

(11:41):
not right.
And I know that.
So yeah, that was hard.
I

SPEAKER_03 (11:45):
remember that.
And I remember, you know, youbeing really upset.
And I was, my advice was always,you know, it's just somebody's
subjective opinion.
At the end of the day for us,the diagnosis and the level only
gives us an insurance billingcode to be able to take some
financial responsibility off ofyour hand.
So whether he's level one, leveltwo, level three, we're just
going to focus on the behaviors.
But again, I imagine as aparent, Having somebody judge,

(12:08):
for lack of a better term,qualify your child as a certain
thing, yeah, I imagine that'sgot to be kind of tricky,
especially, like you said, Iremember you specifically being
like, he'll do these things athome just because he didn't do
them with this person.
He'll do them, watch, I'll havehim do them right now.
And I imagine that can be whensomebody, a professional, is
judging or classifying yourchild in a way that you feel

(12:30):
like is inaccurate.
That can be a lot.

SPEAKER_05 (12:33):
Well, the generality piece...
That speaks volumes, right?
So I can't tell you how oftenbeing involved in early
intervention, I have thisdiscussion with parents and
saying, look, they look greatand everything that I want to
see here in your home ishappening and you're seeing it
too.
Now they're going to have to gointo some stranger's office with
some stranger.
And if...

(12:55):
they clam up or withdraw at all,then what that person sees is
going to have to reflect thatobservation.
And that clinician then mightend up with what we call a
diagnostic substitution andsaying, maybe I'm not sure if
this child has something, but ifwe don't put this label, if
these professionals don't havethis diagnostic code, then this

(13:15):
child doesn't get services.
And that's very specific to ABA,for sure.
We have to go through that.
So I can imagine that you've gota clinician who's trying to be
super precise, and they'retalking about what they
observed, and then you as theirparent, you're going, no, no,
no, he can do that.
He can do that.
And then luckily, to Dan'spoint, I think that ABA does a
good job of not worrying so muchabout the diagnosis, but the

(13:38):
actual behaviors and the skillsthat need to be acquired to then
make that individual difference.
Sure.
Did you know immediately inseeing the more extensive play
sessions or evaluations, as soonas you started seeing your son
interact or not interact, wereyou pretty sure that you were
going to end up with adiagnosis, or how did that work

(14:00):
out?

SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
Yeah, definitely.
But I was in I'm telling you, Iwas in such denial.
But in the back of my head, I'mlike, I know my kid, you know,
even when my kids were born.
I'm like, I feel like I know mykids.
So in the back of my head, I'mlike, he's going to get there.
But for right now, yeah, forright now, I know.
I mean, I have high hopes for mykids.
So.

(14:20):
I just feel like from point A topoint B, it's usually like a
straight line.
And for Nick, it's kind of azigzag line, but we still get
there.

SPEAKER_03 (14:28):
Nice.
So touching base on that denialpiece, I think our goal is kind
of twofold from this podcast.
One is to just give theopportunity for parents who are
in a similar situation to whatyou are in, the perspective and
also the feelings of, oh, wow,yeah, I kind of feel like that.
And I maybe feel like it'suncertain or...
Hopeless or whatever.

(14:49):
In addition, also get it from aparent perspective, how we can
improve the field of ABA.
It's kind of our two goals onABA on tap.
So for that denial piece, youmentioned you were in denial.
Was there a time where youdidn't want to get services
because you're like, no, mykid's fine?
If I get services, then it'smore of a thing?
Or were you just immediatelygung-ho like, let's get

(15:09):
services?

SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
I think once you get to that point of realization,
like maybe more than threepeople are telling you there's a
problem, then there's probably aproblem.
So for me it was like, okay,we're just going to get on the
horse and go.
That's just what it's going tohave to be.
So I did see changes withinNick, and I feel like it was
kind of like waves of hisbehavior, and I feel like for a

(15:34):
long while we got to a reallygood place.

SPEAKER_03 (15:39):
So you mentioned it was when other people were kind
of bringing it up and kind ofconfirming that piece that you
just kind of stepped in.
I see that with some of thefamilies that we work with where
we do have some family membersthat are in denial, and one
parent's like, okay, well, it iswhat it is.
Let's just get the services, andthe other parent isn't.
How did you actually go aboutgetting ABA?
How did you find out about it?

(16:00):
How did you actually call to getthe assessment?

SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Okay.
Okay.
We got set up, and we startedreceiving the ABA.

(16:26):
I think it was around four daysa week, just because at that
time, Nick's behavior was a realproblem.
Yeah, his tantrums were about 45minutes.
I was going to

SPEAKER_05 (16:36):
say, describe that.
When you say behavior, let'sdescribe that.

SPEAKER_03 (16:39):
Which is crazy, because he's come into this room
about four times, and no onewould have noticed.
Talk about an improvement inbehavior.
Nobody's heard it.
Let's go back to old schoolNick, who everybody would have
known if he interrupted Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
definitely.
His baseline was definitely notin a good place before services.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (17:03):
So did you get your services through Regional Center
or through your insurance?
Do you remember in thebeginning?

SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
Um, I think we had, now it's hard to remember, but I
think we started with regionaland then we went through my
employer.
Gotcha.

SPEAKER_05 (17:18):
Early start first, early intervention

SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
first.
Early intervention.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then he, he like graduatedout of that and then we went, to
my insurance, I believe.

SPEAKER_05 (17:27):
Tell us about that very first day.
You're all set up.
You've been doing all thisgroundwork.
You've been asked the samequestions over and over again
about his sleeping habits andhis eating habits and does he
poo and pee and what color is itand all those things that people
ask you a million things about.
And you finally get to that dayand somebody knocks on your door

(17:50):
because it's home-based service,I imagine, to start.
Tell us your impression.
What do you remember about thatvery first day?
Was there a sense of relief?
Honestly, was there a sense ofgreater complication at first?
Like, holy cow, I can't believethis is going to be happening
now.
Four days a week in my home forthe next however many months.
What were your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
I remember the lady we had who came in.
She was really nice.
She had explained everything.
And it was a lot.
That's funny because it was alot of the same questions.
Does he jump?
Does he run?
Does he do all these things?

SPEAKER_05 (18:26):
Does he hop on one foot?
Does he walk backwards for 10feet?
Because you've been measuringthat as a parent.
You've got your measuring tapeout all the time.

SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Right.
How coordinated is he?
But...
I will say there was a sense ofrelief because I felt like,
okay, you know, maybe we'refinally kind of getting into
like this direction of gettingthese services and then things
will get easier.
And I feel like we really wentto a point of like things were

(18:53):
bad and then people were comingin who, you know, don't, I never
have people come over anyway.
It's just, you know, myself andmy kids.
And then all of a sudden peopleare coming in, they're doing
these assessments, they'rechecking everything out.
And then I saw like a a wave ofbad behavior from Nick.
And I think it was just a changeof, okay, now there's people

(19:13):
here, now they're here for aperiod of time, they wanna come
play, and I don't wanna playwith these people.
I just think it was a whole lotof stuff.
And for a little bit, it becameharder, and then we had a lot of
kicking, we had spitting, we hadbiting going on for a little
bit, and then eventually thingsgot better.

(19:34):
and then we had the waves of upand down a little bit and then
kind of like okay use your wordsto say just a simple no thank
you and that will be fine andthen we'll all stop so I think
getting there was a challengetoo and realizing like once he
started making sounds and thenhe made turn those sounds into
words and then putting thosewords together and he realized

(19:55):
like I can just say no you knowstop like it became easier like
I have I have a voice it finallybecame easier so yeah It was
challenging.

SPEAKER_05 (20:05):
These darn adults, I'm kicking, screaming, and they
just don't get it that I'msaying no.
I've got to say no, right?
Was there ever a point wherebecause it was harder at first
and easier that you were like,no, this isn't going to work?
I mean, what was that balancingpoint or that tipping point
where you saw enough of a changeor you felt enough empowerment
with the service that you said,oh, okay, I get it.

(20:27):
I see why it got worse before itgot better.
I

SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
feel like from the beginning I had done enough of
my due diligence to be like,Like, I'm going to research this
and I'm going to find out, like,if this is your title, what is
your job and what are yousupposed to be doing?
And when you give meinformation, what am I supposed
to know and what am I supposedto read up on?
So by the time we startedservices, I felt like, okay,

(20:51):
it's going to be tough.
I know that.
And it's already hard.
And if I'm going through hellnow and we're going to get over
this, then I'm just going tolook forward to getting over
this, you know, hill of hellwith him right now and then...
So I was optimistic and it washard, but we're in a really good
space now.

SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
Yeah, we call that the extinction burst.
As I'm sure you know now that weactually see that a lot with our
clients as we come in and wemake suggestions or things like
that and the behavior actuallygets worse before it gets
better.
And I can see how that would bereally counterintuitive for a
parent to be like, you'retelling me to do this and I'm
doing this and now it's gettingworse.
You said from your research thathelped you kind of trust the

(21:30):
process.
Was there...
I mean, because you're putting alot of trust into somebody you
don't even know.
Were there times where you werelike, you know what, no, this,
no.
Or did it smooth out quicklyenough where it was much easier?
I

SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
think overall, we had such a great experience that
even if we had a bad day, it wasstill good.
I only remember maybe one personor two people that maybe Nick
didn't totally connect with.
But overall, I feel thatEverything was amazing for him.

SPEAKER_03 (22:05):
Nice.
Do you feel that, so I forgetwhat I was going to ask about
the, oh, do you feel that, soMike, you always talk about ABA
is no way to parent.
So in the beginning, were theresuggestions that were being made
by either the case manager, thetherapist, whatever, that were
just totally counterintuitive tothe way that you would parent or

(22:27):
things where you were like,wait, what?
You want me to do this in thissituation?
Or did it all seem prettyintuitive?

SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
I think it just made sense to me.
I think for myself, I had toreally implement these big
changes in my life becausebefore services, I knew we were
going to get it, but I didn'tknow that I should be doing X
amount of things or doing thingsa certain way for him.
Your kids really do teach youpatience and teach you to kind

(22:55):
of take a step back and be like,okay, this is the 10th time,
but...
We're going to get there.
I

SPEAKER_05 (23:03):
like that.
The kids teach you patience forsure.
Now, whether or not you chooseto learn as a parent, that's a

SPEAKER_03 (23:08):
whole different discussion.
They're going to make you bepatient, right?
Because if you tell them ninetimes and they don't do it,
well, you've got to tell them atenth time, right?

SPEAKER_05 (23:14):
Exactly.
How many times did your mom haveto ask you to pick up your socks
and put them in the hamperbefore you actually did, right?
About 10,000 times.
Yeah.
As you were going through allthese suggestions, you're seeing
that it works.
One thing that I think a lot offamilies run into is now by
extension, whether it's grandmaor aunt or uncle are now like,
no, no, malarkey.

(23:36):
This child's just misbehaving.
This child's just beingdifficult.
Did you face any of that withany of your family members or
friends?
And what's your best advice onmanaging that?
Because that can be hard.
That can be discouraging.

SPEAKER_00 (23:48):
I would say one thing, and I didn't do this
until later, and I feel like wehad so many fights about it but
I will say if your family iswatching your kids or they have
any sort of input or beingaround your kids in their
environment give them theresources as well and let them
speak to also the people who arehelping your kids because I feel

(24:12):
like that can be reallyinsightful it's like you don't
want to hear from the personwho's in your family sometimes
it's better to hear from anoutside person That was, I feel
like, a mistake I made because Iwas like, well, we're going to
do all these things.
I worked at night, so I was homeduring the day when all of these
things were happening.
But then there was those timeswhere if I had a meeting or I
had somewhere to be, I couldn'ttake my kids.

(24:33):
Then it was like, well, and thenyou kind of have, depending, you
know, who's there, maybe thatold school approach of, like,
smack your kid or, you know,spank your kids.
And then that's a whole otherdiscussion.
I do, every now and then,will...
spank my kids and Nick spit inmy face and I did spank him for

(24:54):
that because that's definitelynot okay.
But that's never my first go-towhen I'm handling my kids.

SPEAKER_03 (25:01):
I don't remember which caregiver it was at the
time, but I remember at a parentgroup that we were at, you being
like, yeah, my...
I don't remember who it was.
Told me or suggested or wasjudging the way that I parent
and I imagine that can just beincredibly frustrating to have
other people who are not thereall the time think that like,

(25:21):
and almost like make you feellike, wow, all the time that I'm
doing is wasted on this time.
Oh, you know better?
So it almost devalues all thetime you're spending on the ABA
services and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
Yeah, and you know who is the most opinionated?
The people without kids willtell you all the things you're
doing wrong, and I find ithilarious.
It's so funny to me, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (25:42):
So now fast forwarding until today, and then
we'll fast forward or we'llrewind back and ask more
questions.
You don't strike me as a verymild-mannered individual.
You don't strike me as anidealist.
I told you so, but what's beenyour vindication now with kind
of seeing where your son is atand going back to some of those
family members and maybehearkening back to the, hey,

(26:03):
yeah, I remember when you saidit was just misbehavior.
And again, I think thateverybody's got good intent,
right?
But how that comes out or howyou feel judged can be very
difficult.
So have you had a chance tocircle back?
Have you had any family membersor friends that were maybe
mistaken in their initialassessment come to you and say,
hey, we were wrong?

SPEAKER_03 (26:21):
And Jess is a much better person than I am because
I'm big on the I told you so's.
Go ahead, Jess.

SPEAKER_00 (26:28):
I don't typically say it in those words, but I
have had conversations with myfamily.
I do have two older sisters.
One of them does have kids whoare not on the spectrum, but we
have had conversations aboutNick and his behavior, and I
will always come back to how theearly intervention really, I
feel, saved Nick and even thethe parent stuff, the parent

(26:51):
classes that I was in, I feellike it saved me in a way, too,
because it was so stressfulduring that time.
So, yeah.
I haven't said I told you so inthose words.
That's why

SPEAKER_03 (27:05):
you're a much better person than I am, Jess, because
I would have added...
But you

SPEAKER_05 (27:08):
feel it.
You feel it inside.
That's the important part.
Vindication, right?
How long were you involved indirect services?

SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
Three years.

SPEAKER_05 (27:20):
Three years.
OK.
That's a good progression.
Not too long, not too short.
That's a good amount of time.

SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
You bring up the parent groups.
And I'll circle back to thoselater.
But it's funny you talk aboutthe stress.
And I remember there was a coregroup in your parent group of
three ladies.
And it would kind of rotate eachweek because we would do it
every Friday.
And each week, it was like oneparent was kind of on the verge
of losing their coconuts fromthe kid.
And the other parents would belike, it's OK.
It's OK.
I was there.
And then next week, it would bea different parent that was

(27:48):
ready to Strangle their kid.
It was a great experience.

SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
Stressful, but looking back, we can laugh now.

SPEAKER_03 (27:56):
Absolutely.
And we'll talk about theimportance of parents supporting
other parents, which, again,thank you so much, Jess, for
coming because, again, you'repaying it forward.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (28:06):
Again, we can't mention this enough now.
True testament, there are twolive children in this studio
right now, whether you hear themor not, because that's how
well-behaved they are.
They're occupied.
They're taking care of eachother, maybe tattling on each
other just a little bit, whichis very, very appropriate.

SPEAKER_03 (28:22):
So yeah, we're doing well.
She was concerned that her sonwasn't talking enough, and now
maybe concerned about some ofthe stuff he's saying, right?
You know, care for what you wishfor.

SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
From no speech to possible expletives.
That's a success story, I'mpretty sure.

SPEAKER_03 (28:35):
Absolutely.
You mentioned, Jess, thejudgment that you felt like you
got from non-parents.
I remember I were in dad'sgroups as well, and one of the
dads in my dad's group who has adaughter, I just remember this
story so vividly because he waslike, yeah, they had a townhouse
at the time, and this was beforehe had his daughter.
And he said there was anotherkid on the townhouse across the

(28:57):
street that the kid would justbe, you know, wilding out, for
lack of a better term, just, youknow, throwing tantrums.
And he was like, I just judgedthis parent.
And I was just like, you don'tknow what you're doing let me
come over there and show you andthen when he had his daughter
who ended up being on the ASDspectrum he's like yeah looking
back like I realized I had noidea what I was talking about
and I have so much morecompassion for this parent so

(29:18):
it's it's interesting how muchyou know people that have kids
are able to be morecompassionate for those other
people that have kids whichrelates to our services but
Because a lot of the therapistsand even supervisors, case
managers, don't have kids.
So I think that's an importantthing that It's weird to take
advice about how to raise kidsfrom people that don't have kids

(29:40):
sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 (29:41):
I mean, we could put it in a more negative context,
right?
The idea that misery lovescompany.
I'm not the only one.
Tell us about that, though.
What was that synergy like inthose parent groups with Dan's
description that you're sort oftrading off who's doing well,
who isn't doing well?
How does that work for you?
Is it helpful to hear thatsomebody else is in a similar

(30:02):
struggle?
How helpful is it when you're inthat struggle and suddenly
they're encouraging you andmaybe it feels like it's a
little bit too much pepper, rah,rah, and you're like, hey, come
on now.
I'm going through it.
Let me have it, right?
How does that work?
How helpful is that?

SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
I think having those meetings once a week with the
other moms and then alwayshaving the same moms coming in,
I feel like I developed a prettyamazing relationship with them.
And I feel like we had kidsabout the same ages, so I think
they were only within a couplemonths of each other.
So one, that really helped.

(30:38):
Two, I feel like if my kid waskind of going through something
that was frustrating, then theyhad already...
they had already been goingthrough it, or at some point
we're going to talk about itagain because they're going to
also be going through it.
So I think it all worked.
It worked well.

SPEAKER_05 (30:57):
Sometimes the individual difference, or that
can be a basis for comparisonthat isn't comfortable
sometimes.
Did you ever find yourself inthat spot where it was like, oh,
my kid's not doing that yet?
How do you reconcile that?

SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yeah, I think for me I was always hopeful, like,
okay...
They're all around the sameages, and we're going to get
there.
So I just always felt likethrough therapy and just kind of
like, okay, kid, keep going.
He'll get there.
He'll reach his milestones.
I feel like it's always one dayat a time, and sometimes during

(31:32):
that time for me it was just oneminute at a time because it was
just so stressful, and I feellike just so uncertain at the
time.
So we've come a long way.

UNKNOWN (31:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:41):
Absolutely.
You mentioned that sometimes,too, having your parent or your
family tell you to do something,or you telling your family to do
something, they're just like,nope, which is the whole reason
that we started Dad's Groups,because so many moms would come.
We did parent groups.
We weren't gender-specific orrole-specific, but it would
almost always be moms, as wasthe parent group that you were

(32:02):
in, Jess, and so many of themoms were like, I told my
husband, and they won't listen.
You've got to tell them,because...
I won't listen.
They won't listen if I tellthem.
So I think there's a lot ofother parents that support that
thing that for whatever reason,even in my current relationship,
there's a shutdown.
If I tell...
my girlfriend to do anything,it's just going to automatically

(32:22):
be a no, no matter what happens.
There's just like a shutdownamongst significant others or
things like that aboutimplementing strategies and
things of that nature.

SPEAKER_05 (32:32):
What do you think made the change for your family?
So a lot of times, even as maybeprofessionals, we might
inadvertently make the mistakethat everybody's going to
implement the strategy the sameway.
And what we end up seeing isthat you know, I mean, I've
actually, I've gotten a lotbetter.
I feel like looking at, youknow, family and saying, hey,
mom, you're going to do it thisway.
Dad, you're going to do it thisway.

(32:53):
Grandma, you're going to try todo it this way because you know
that, you know, what do I know?
I'm some guy that isn't agrandparent yet.
So, you know, I have troublewith grandparents because
they're set in their ways alittle bit more.
Do you, was it ultimatelyreplicating what you were doing
that worked for your family?
Did they find their own groove?

(33:13):
What do you think worked forthem finally to go, oh, okay, we
understand what's happening andnow we can fit into the
situation as opposed to be sortof countering sometimes or being
oppositional?

SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
I feel like it was initially really frustrating for
my family because Nick'sbehaviors were so bad at the
time.
But I also think...
I kind of had the advantagebecause when I was working night
shift, my kids were sleepingwhen I left, so there was only
another adult there sleepingwith them, and then I would be
back home, so they didn't reallyknow I was gone in a way.

(33:46):
So I feel like during the worstof the worst, I kind of had Nick
all the time, and I was the onetaking him to all of his
therapy.
And I feel like at that pointwhere things have kind of
settled is when my family hasstepped in more.
So although it is frustratingfor them, he's more mellow now,
and they can kind of get like alittle bit more stern with him
and that that's kind of whatworks for Nick and they don't

(34:09):
they don't implement so manythings I mean um in regards to
like the the ABA sessions theyweren't as involved at that
point um so I think now it'sjust being a little bit more
stern and you know kind of thatworks for Nick

SPEAKER_03 (34:25):
so with that how much would you say was them
understanding the strategiesthat you wanted them to
implement when they werewatching your son versus you
coming to grips with the factof, you know what, they might
not do it the way I want to doit.
I'm just going to tolerate itbecause in the beginning, you
know, a lot of parents are like,well, this is what they said in
ABA and everybody has to do it,which ideally would be the case.

(34:47):
But like Mike said, and you'vekind of alluded to that might
not happen.
So how much would you say is youbeing more patient and how much
would you say is them changingwhat they do?

SPEAKER_00 (34:56):
I would say definitely if there's one, a
lack of understanding and a lackof resources or just that
knowledge for the family,they're going to feel like,
well, who are you to tell mewhat I should be doing?
You know, this is your kid andthese are your sessions.
You do those things and I'llkind of do my own thing.
And I feel like that old schoolstyle of like having your

(35:17):
parents around and helping,they're not interested.
You know, when I would try togive my mom a schedule or be
like, this is what we're doing.
She's like, okay.
And I know damn well they're notfollowing a schedule.
They're not doing that.
I think it's harder for...
It's not

SPEAKER_03 (35:32):
part of the grandparents' job description
anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (35:34):
Exactly.
I think that's what it is.
I feel like people who are maybeless involved, but they're
around, I feel like it's not...
At least in my experience, it'smore of like, we'll be here and
we'll play with him, but that'snot my thing either.
That was kind of my experience.

SPEAKER_03 (35:54):
One thing that you mentioned...
you mentioned a little bitearlier, was that one kind of,
we would call it pivotalbehavior, but breakthrough was
when Nick was able to say no.
And other...
Did you want to say no?
You want to say

SPEAKER_05 (36:09):
no?

SPEAKER_03 (36:11):
Yes.
Yes or no?
Almost a guest appearance.
Yes, we have a guest appearancehere.
You

SPEAKER_05 (36:19):
want

SPEAKER_03 (36:19):
to talk?

UNKNOWN (36:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
Oh, he said no.
Perfect.

SPEAKER_05 (36:25):
There you go.

SPEAKER_03 (36:26):
Okay.
Historically, and this issomething that we've always
prided ourselves on, is theassent piece or acknowledging.
Historically, ABA was verycompliance-oriented in that if a
kid says no and we give aninstruction, well, we've got to
follow through with theinstruction because we gave the
instruction.
Or something that, you know,Mike, we've always talked about

(36:46):
for a while and something we'rea huge proponent of is if the
individual says no...
And we're going to honor thatno.
I guess two questions that Ihave for you, Jess.
One is, did you ever have themore compliance-based ABA where
it was like, no, we say you haveto do it?
And then, well, that's the firstquestion, and then I'll get to
the second one.

SPEAKER_00 (37:04):
I think for me, I really appreciated the fact that
there was always an option.
So when we had the ABA therapistcome, I feel like it was a
little more relaxed in the senseof like, well, if you say no, I
can still give you an option orI can just provide you with an
option.
So if we're getting dressed, Ican hold up two pairs of pants

(37:24):
and you can choose.
And that's actually the stylethat I have for Nick.
And that's what he chose.
I had a pair of jeans for himset to go today and he chose his
pajamas, which...
I don't like it, but I'm notgoing to argue with it.
As long as you're decent, youlook okay when we're going out,
who cares if you're in yourpajamas?
You didn't show

SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
him the dress code for the podcast?
Our very strict tuxedo dresscode only, Jess?

SPEAKER_05 (37:50):
We have to capture this moment here.
I need to rewind this.
This is like a highlight moment.
Here's a parent saying...
I gave him choice of pants.
He picked the pajama pants.
We went with it.
That's ABA

SPEAKER_03 (38:02):
success right there.
You had to do that with yourdaughter and was it the princess
costume or whatever?

SPEAKER_05 (38:07):
Yes, exactly.
So you come to the point whereit's like, okay, he's wearing
pants.
Yes, and it's not the pants Iwant him to wear, but the pants
are on.

SPEAKER_03 (38:16):
Pick your battles kind of thing, right?
Pick your battles, yeah.
I remember that.
That was just getting him towear any pants was a battle.

SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
And I love the button up and he wore it.
not put a button up on anymore,and I'm like...

SPEAKER_05 (38:30):
What do you think you spared yourself in terms of
not forcing the issue in thosemoments?
Because it would be veryreasonable for any parent to
say, no, I'm telling you, you'renot wearing your pajamas outside
of this house, and then suddenlyyou're tied up and arguing with
a three-year-old.
Exactly,

SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
and that's the reason why.
If it's not that serious, I'mjust not going to worry about
it.
If I'm asking you to take abath, and you took a bath, and
you're clean...
then who cares if you're wearingthe red pants or the blue pants,
like I don't really careactually.
So as long as you're dressed andwe're okay to go out, I'm not
going to stand here for 20minutes and try to tell you to

(39:08):
do this.
And now we're running latebecause we had a fight about a
pair of pants.
Like just saying it, I feel likejust sounds silly.
So I don't really care thatmuch.
Well, it

SPEAKER_03 (39:17):
always sounds silly when you step outside yourself,
right?
But when you're in the moment,and this is even as an RBT, like
we said these contingencies,right?
These first thens.
Remember, I've talked aboutwaiting an hour and a half for a
kid to eat a strawberry.
Seems ridiculous now when I saythat.
But when you're in the moment,you're like, no, I've said this
and they have to follow through,right?
It's...
It's something to alwaysconsider, to always be in the

(39:41):
best mental state.
So transitioning to that realquickly.
That was nicely done, sir.
What do you do, Mike, to alwaysstay in the best mental state?
And something that our friendJess, who...
probably operated for, what,three years on three hours of
sleep a day, may have wellbenefited from.
I

SPEAKER_05 (39:57):
don't know if this is magical enough to help your
mind work with insufficientsleep.
However, I do want to talk abouta little routine that I've
adapted for over a year now.
I'm really glad to have foundthem and that they found us.
But as a parent, things get verybusy.
Things get very tense.
You've got work.

(40:17):
You've got drop-off, pickup,transportation.
You've got projects.
that you're doing alongside.
Here we are sitting on a Sundayafternoon doing a little bit of
extra work along with eachother, and that can be very,
very mentally draining.
So the idea that you might needsomething in addition to your
cup of coffee to keep youenergized, to keep you in a good
mental flow state, that's wherethis comes in.

(40:39):
So what I'm talking about isMagic Mind.
And what I like to talk aboutwith Magic Mind are the very
simple ingredients, even thoughthey may not be simple to
pronounce.
Oh, man.
So I'm going to tap into myfriend Dan here.
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And Dan, you're gonna tell uswhat, Frisfatidylserine does.

SPEAKER_03 (40:58):
One more time, what was that one?

SPEAKER_05 (40:59):
Frisfatidylserine.

SPEAKER_03 (41:01):
Well, that's a fatty substance that protects the
nerve cells in your brain andenables them to communicate with
each other.
So it's a really good thing toinclude as people age a little
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SPEAKER_05 (41:18):
All right, so what if I throw something like
citicoline at you?
What are you going to tell meabout that?

SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
With citicoline, what citicoline does is that's
more designed to help thenrepair cells, improve retinal
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SPEAKER_05 (41:32):
Wow.
And then you throw in somethingfor energy like ceremonial
matcha.

SPEAKER_03 (41:36):
And that's more to protect against heart disease by
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All right.

SPEAKER_05 (41:43):
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(42:04):
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(42:25):
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SPEAKER_03 (42:36):
Right, getting back to it.
So as a parent who's beenthrough the whole rigmarole, for
lack of a better term, in termsof that empowerment piece, you
said that you felt like it jivedwell with your kids, honoring no
and things like that.
Is there anything, let's sayyou're talking to Jess of, what,
five years ago when they firststarted to get therapy, or just

(42:58):
a parent who's just got thediagnosis and now starting ABA,
any kind of suggestions or wordsto the wise you would give in
terms of, things to look out forwhen your therapist or case
managers are asking you to dothings or things to look for?
I

SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
would say one, it's hard, it's stressful, and it's
scary, but trust the process andalso trust the people around you
because In my experience, theydo have your kid's best interest
and also the well-being of theirsuccess and what their plans and

(43:35):
their bigger picture is.
So I would just say just havetrust and just keep your faith
because in the moment and whenit's happening, it's really hard
and it's really sad.
I was telling you I was cryingall the time.
I was sad all the time.
I was like...
I really just didn't know what Iwas going to do.
And then to start out with a kidwho just wasn't talking and he

(43:59):
was completely mute, it's scary.
You wonder, is my kid going todrive?
Are they going to go to school?
And actually, Nick, at thispoint, he's mainstreaming.
So it's amazing.
Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 (44:13):
Yeah, that's so amazing.
And I think one thing that youwere really effective at and
that benefited you is you alwayskind of stood your ground and
advocated for yourself.
You were kind of mama bearRight.
So you're like, OK, I'll takethese suggestions, but I'm also
going to let you know if I don'tagree with them.
And I think I just want to,again, reiterate that as a non
parent.
But my suggestion to all parentsis make sure at the end of the

(44:34):
day, it's your kid and you'readvocating for yourself what
works for you.
So trusting the process, butnot, you know.
just trusting it blindly, makingsure that, like you said, just
you did the research, but you'realso advocating what works well
for you as well.
Because you always, you would dothat.
I remember we had a lot ofdiscussions.
If you're like, yeah, I don'tthink that's going to work.
And then we found a way to makeit work, rather than you just
being like, yeah, you know what,I'll try it, knowing that you

(44:56):
couldn't try it.

SPEAKER_05 (44:57):
One thing we often talk about is, so we talk about
ABA as specific to autismspectrum disorder.
And then we can talk about ABA.
You alluded to it earlier interms of behavior in general and
sort of parenting skills.
Do you think you benefited fromservices or that your daughter
actually also benefited fromservices despite the fact that
she wasn't the direct recipient?

(45:19):
Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Yeah.
I know Elijah is my daughter.
She's nine.
I know that for her, the wholething is frustrating because she
is typically developing.
And I think for her, it's kindof like...
well, if you say we're going todo these things, why can't we
just do it?
For her, getting from point A topoint B, like I said earlier,

(45:41):
it's a straight line.
And for Nick, it's a bunch ofzigzags.
We're going to get there.
It's just going to take sometime.
So for Elijah, it was reallyfrustrating.
And even now, she'll try to helphim, and she gets frustrated.
So I think to implement thoseservices for other kids in the
household is beneficial foreverybody because they
understand it's harder for thiskid But we also, we have to kind

(46:04):
of all work together and reallyjust get to the bigger, the goal
there.

SPEAKER_03 (46:10):
That's tricky because we always say, you know,
ASD isn't an individualdiagnosis, it's a family
diagnosis and it affectseveryone.
You've talked about how itstressed you out and Elijah as
well.
Elijah has a lot of personalityand I imagine, you know, as
being one parent, the primarycaregiver, there's only one of
you to go around and a lot oftimes what happens is all the
therapists, everybody's there tosee Nick and I'm sure that, you

(46:34):
know, Elijah did a lot of, say,attention-seeking behaviors and
stuff like that where she's likewell I want attention I'm over
here right I want a lot of theattention and I'm sure that
created a lot of frustrations soI don't even know exactly what
my question is but that's mythought process and kind of
living it vicariously is howwould you recommend for families

(46:57):
to prioritize or to make surethat they're mindful of everyone
else in the situation inaddition to the child that has
autism

SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
Um, I feel like from the beginning, like I made it
pretty clear, like I do havethese two kids and we need to
kind of, I know Nick is the one,as you said with the diagnosis,
but implement things for bothkids and really let them
understand because when Elijahwas four or five years old, she
just didn't know that somebodywas coming over to play with

(47:25):
Nick.
She felt like, why can't I playor why can't I be a part of
this?
You know?
So just having her understandthat and just kind of putting it
in like kid terms, I think, um,was helpful also like Elijah and
I people might judge but we goon dates you know I'll keep her
home I don't know who would

SPEAKER_03 (47:45):
judge

SPEAKER_00 (47:45):
that I'll keep her home like one day a week from
school and we'll go do what shewants so she just had a birthday
we went and I don't like sushibut we went to a sushi
restaurant she wanted to get hernails done we got her nails done
she wanted to go buy an outfitso there's like little things
I'll do for her to like let herknow like hey It's not all about
him and it's not all about you,but we can take our time

(48:07):
together and we can spend thattime together.
And it's just, we call it ourgirls day and we'll go out.
And we have a good time.

SPEAKER_03 (48:14):
That's so awesome.
That's so important, too,because otherwise that's going
to manifest in ways that aregoing to impact your sanity a
lot more.
And I know there's been plentyof times where her behavior has
been more concerning than Nick'sbehavior, right?
And driving you crazy.
It's not the ASD thing.
It's just a kid thing.

SPEAKER_05 (48:29):
I was going to say just what an amazing parenting
advice you're lending there interms of just striking that
balance.
And certainly when your child isreceiving services, because that
can be very overwhelming.
There is a great deal of focus.
And I think when we get it rightis when we realize that there's
one person with a diagnosis, butan entire dynamic or family
dynamic that has to receive theservices.

(48:50):
So I imagine that with yourservices at some point, it was a
little bit more inclusive.
I know that having been doingthis for a long time, at the
very start of my ABA career, itwas a lot about exclusion.
It was a lot about isolation andtraining these skills.

SPEAKER_03 (49:05):
Mom can't be there.
Definitely sister can't bethere.
No,

SPEAKER_05 (49:07):
because we didn't want to deal with all the
excessive behavior, and thatallowed us to deal with that a
little bit better, which which Ithink is very erroneous.
We won't get into that now.
But I imagine then with Nick'sprogress, then the services were
able to become more inclusive.
So suddenly both of your kidsand you and the staff are
playing in one situation.
How did that feel to realize youwere at that level?

(49:29):
How does it change the scope ofservices?
Yeah, give us your impression onthat.

SPEAKER_00 (49:34):
It just showed just the steps forward we took
because one, it made me feelgood that people were like,
okay, this is a job here andwe're here to do this with Nick,
but we can sit down in colorwith Elijah as well or have her
kind of be involved in it.
So that was the one thing Ialways appreciated about it is
just kind of letting everybodyknow and it was just kind of

(49:56):
okay from the beginning, which Ifelt was good.
Two, I feel like...
if it would have just been aone-on-one with Nick and then
kind of getting out of servicesand then he's with Elijah.
For me, I feel like that wouldhave been...
it would have felt differentjust because Nick was receiving
this, like, really structuredkind of play and services, and

(50:18):
then Elijah's coming in, and shedidn't need it, but I just, I
don't know.
It just was like a, it feelslike it would have been
different.
I don't know.
You're trying to articulate thatbetter, but...

SPEAKER_05 (50:29):
That's tough.
That's confusing.

SPEAKER_00 (50:32):
But overall, I mean, I think Nick had, it was all a
really good experience, so,yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (50:41):
You mentioned that you prioritized Elijah at times
where you didn't have to be withNick, whether he was at school
or something.
You went on your dates or yourhangouts or stuff like that.
One thing that I was a bigproponent of, and I was kind of
on you about the best that Icould be, because if anybody has
a lot on their plate, you talkabout a single caregiver with
two kids who also works andprovides and has to take their

(51:02):
kid to ABA therapy.
Again, I joke, but...
Remember, you're talking aboutgetting, what, three hours of
sleep a night.
You would come into parent grouplike, I was lucky to get three
hours of sleep a night.
But one thing I was always on,to the best that I could be, was
like, take care of yourself.
Prioritize, whether it's gettingrespite, some sort of
babysitter, something like that.
Remember, finally, you were ableto take a trip to Temecula,

(51:25):
which you were like, oh, my god,that was amazing.
I don't know if you found waysto do that better.
As you've continued to eitherchange your work schedule or
things like that.
But a lot of parents, you know,they'll put themselves aside for
their kids, which makes a wholelot of sense.
But at the end of the day, ifyou don't have any sanity left,
like you can't give any to thekids.

(51:46):
So can you speak to that at allabout the importance of taking
care of yourself?
I guess in the beginning of Iknow it's super difficult for
you.
So.
I don't even know how you wereable to find any time for
yourself.
And I haven't talked to you in awhile, so maybe you still don't.
I don't know.
Hopefully you do.
And how you were able to findsome time for yourself,
hopefully, or go about that.

SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
So I will say that's 1,000% correct, because you will
put your kids first, and you'llgo out looking like hell, but
you're like, my kids are cool.
They're set.
Dare we

SPEAKER_03 (52:17):
say you'll go out wearing pajama pants?

SPEAKER_00 (52:20):
I still wouldn't do it, but I will say...
Just acknowledging that and thentaking the steps to really,
really take, you know, even anhour for yourself is so
important because when I startedto go and do things on my own, I
was like, I really needed that.
Like, I just needed to havethat.
So my good friend Ty and I, herand I will go and do, like, a

(52:42):
happy hour and we try to go,like, at least twice a month.
And...
It's good.
My work schedule has changed.
I am not on nights anymore as ofJanuary of this year.
Good for you.
So, yeah, it's good.
I have learned to take time formyself.

SPEAKER_03 (52:58):
Do you feel like...
So we talked about the parentgroups.
Can you speak to that at all?
You brought that up in terms ofstress relief and things like
that.
How do you think that thatplayed into...
your service delivery in termsof, you know, Nick got his
therapy, both individual and inhis groups.

(53:19):
How integral or not integral doyou think that the parent groups
were into your ability toimplement the services?

SPEAKER_00 (53:25):
I will say hands down the parents group on top of
receiving the services wasamazing.
And I still like think back tothat and I'm like, it was just
so impactful to be sitting inthe same room with people who
are like, I have either dealtwith that or I know I'm going to
deal with that.
So let's talk about it now andkind of navigate through and see

(53:47):
like, okay, maybe our kids arearound the same age.
How did you navigate throughthese issues?
Or what will I do when maybe mykid is going through it or I've
already been through it and thisis what I have done?

SPEAKER_03 (53:59):
So with the parent groups piece too, as we've
talked about, your kids are kindof going to do what they're
going to do.
But a lot of times it's like howwe respond to it and how much it
takes out of us in thatsituation.
And I do feel like, and again,I'll just revisit it, but you
did talk on it earlier about howone week one parent would be

(54:19):
stressed and the next week theother parent would be stressed.
And maybe hearing it fromanother parent of like, yeah,
man, like last week my kidwasn't doing this.
I thought my kid went to thebathroom and all this sudden
they regressed or my kid hit hissister or brother or something
like that um was there any diddid that part help so not even
in terms of your kids behaviorbut helping you be able to kind

(54:40):
of reflect on your perspectiveof their behavior if that makes
sense

SPEAKER_00 (54:43):
Yeah, and I think one of the hot topics then, too,
was the whole potty training.
Yes, it was.
We all had a boy.
We all had boys.
And I think that was kind of aconsistent topic because it took
them a long time, you know, forall of us to potty train our
boys.
And we're going through

SPEAKER_03 (55:01):
it at the same time,

SPEAKER_00 (55:02):
too.
Yeah.
So I think kind of having thatand I think it's just the
understanding and then everybodybeing able to even offer just–
their own experience ofeverything, how they navigate
through, and then even providingeach other with resources I
thought was so beneficial aswell, and what really works for
those families and how they kindof overcome things.

(55:27):
Okay, go to a different

SPEAKER_05 (55:31):
one.
Folks, I'm not sure if you heardthat here, but we're still live
and, again, have two children inthe studio.
We're doing well.
They're managing however theycan.
Are we good?
We're good to keep going?
To keep rolling?
Okay.
And, again, we're glad toconverse as long as people are
comfortable or have time sort ofin trying to guide us toward a
certain wrap-up and not askingthe most final question here.

(55:54):
But given your experience ingeneral and thinking about
everything you've been throughand where you are now, And more
importantly, understanding howdaunting and scary this might
have been at the beginning.
If you were talking to a momthat just left the
pediatrician's office and wasjust told about the MCHAT and

(56:14):
all the follow-ups she's goingto have to do, what would be
your best advice?
What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 (56:19):
My best advice would be just take a deep breath.
Having an understanding that,yes, this is very scary, but
also getting the right resourcesand getting involved with people
who have an understanding andpeople who have kind of taken
this course already and havekind of seen that light of

(56:41):
things.
you know the behaviors andthings will change and it does
get worse with the behaviors butoverall and especially I feel
really fortunate that I saw thesigns early enough and kind of
had that whole conversation atfirst because The early
intervention, I feel, reallysaved my son and his development

(57:01):
and how he learns now.
I would also say there is nobetter advocate than you as the
parent.
So always speak up for yourkids.
If people don't like you becauseyou don't have the same opinion,
it doesn't matter.
You're doing it for your kid.
And just always, you know, drivein with, you know...
What is the goal and what are wetrying to accomplish here and

(57:25):
how are we going to do it?
And always, you know, if you'vereached that goal, set a new
goal and just always keep goingwith it.

SPEAKER_03 (57:32):
That's an important, I think I could even say growth
that I saw in the groups that wehad that lasted probably a
couple of years.
that not caring what otherpeople thought, because in the
beginning, it's that judgmentof, do other people care?
Am I responding right?
Like, if I do this out inpublic, then at the end, it was
like, no, I'm going to do what Ithink is best as the parent, and
at the end of the day, I'm theone that has to answer to it.
I don't have to answer to anyrandom stranger or anybody who's

(57:54):
judging me.

SPEAKER_00 (57:55):
And actually, I would say that I would feel
really embarrassed, or I wouldfeel like, oh, this person's
looking at me, and they'rejudging me as a parent, but you
don't understand the diagnosisthat my kid has, and that we've
kind of been going through this.
So for me, initially, I was likeI don't like to go out because
people will pass I know they'regoing to pass judgment because I
know my kid is going to act upbut now it's like okay we're

(58:16):
going to we're just going totake a time out in Target and if
it takes us 10 minutes I don'tcare you can look at me you can
give me a dirty look at thispoint it's no sweat off my back
I honestly don't care that muchso yeah we've made progress

SPEAKER_03 (58:31):
absolutely I do have one other question that I wanted
to kind of revisit againsomething that we talked about a
while ago but I believe Nickcame to our social groups before
he went to any school right soit was the first time you
dropped him off can you talkabout because I believe that was
one of the gradual separationsthat we actually trialed with

(58:52):
your son and a couple of otherclients because historically
right it would be like drop yourkid off and then run out the
door and we'll shut the door andthen the kid will scream and
then So can you talk about kindof that experience about
basically dropping your kid offfor the first time and what that
was like?

SPEAKER_00 (59:06):
I will say knowing he had the diagnosis and we did
treat it like school, kind ofknowing like, okay, he might
have days where he doesn't wantto be here or he wants to come
back with me.
It was nice to know that thestaff were so understanding of
that because I know like, youknow, I would come up and then
kind of say bye to him andleave.

(59:26):
And it was a transition for him.
The only person he ever hung outwith was me and Elijah.
So I feel like it was atransition but...
I feel like it was a goodtransition.
It was fun for him.
He didn't go to school at firstand then get kicked out because
of his bad behavior.
It was a fun experience for him.
So I think the transition to gointo real school made it easier

(59:47):
for him.

SPEAKER_05 (59:47):
All right.
So we've covered a lot of groundtoday.
Jess, we want to thank you foryour time.
I think we're pushing theenvelope here.
So they've been very wellbehaved.
But it might be time for theadults to wise up and realize
it's time to wrap up and wind itdown.
But to end, we have added twovery special guests here to our

(01:00:08):
crew that are now sitting andattentive.
No?
No?
Wait.
Not him.
Not him?
Remember, you want to hold themicrophone right to your mouth,
right?
So Nick can say something if hewants.
Elijah, you can say something ifyou want.
So I'll ask you a question,which is tell us a little bit
about what you remember whenyour brother was really little
and then all the skills he'spicked up up until now.

(01:00:30):
What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:31):
I think...
He kind of grew halfway.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:36):
He kind of grew halfway?
Yeah.
Well, halfway is better thannothing, right?
Yeah.
Okay, good.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:41):
Can he do anything now that he didn't used to be
able to do?
Oh,

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:45):
yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:45):
Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:46):
He's a rough player now.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:47):
He's a rough player now?
Giving you a run for your money.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:51):
He used to be a little softy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:53):
Yeah.
We call that self-advocacy then,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:56):
Awareness.
And...
He's kind of the opposite of mebecause he's a cheap person and
I'm the expensive person here.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:05):
Your mom's okay with that?
Yes.
And he smiled when you saidthat.
Yeah.
So sure, Nick.
Nick, do you want to tell ussomething?
You want to take the microphoneand tell us something?
What do you want to say?
You want to say hi?
Hi.
Oh, okay, you don't want to saythat.
You made a nice sound, though.
That's okay.
That's all right.
Yeah, well, Mr.

(01:01:25):
Dan, thank you, Elijah, for yourinsights.
Again, thank you, Jess and Nick,for your time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:30):
Wait, wait, can I add one more thing?
Yes, you can add one more thing.
So when he was little, he usedto be a crybaby.
A

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:37):
crybaby, and now?

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:38):
And now?
Did he learn other ways insteadof crying?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:41):
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:42):
Okay.
Telling you how he feels?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:44):
Yeah, and he used to be a softie, but now...

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:48):
Softie means physical and when he tells you,
Elijah, stop doing that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:52):
I would just still continue.
Like, no, because, like, forexample, if I'm chewing gum and
he tells me to stop chewing gumin my room, I'm not going to
stop because it's my room,basically.
He doesn't own

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:03):
my room.
It sounds like you two arecommunicating just fine.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:08):
Yeah.
All

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:09):
right.
Well, it's been a veryinvigorating experience.
You got more.
You got more.
Keep going.
One more thing.
One more thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:14):
And sometimes we kind of get along, but most of
the time we fight during theday.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:19):
Well, that sounds very regular.
That sounds very regular.
That sounds about

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:22):
right.
Sometimes we have to beseparated because my mom can't
handle it.
Sometimes we drive her crazy.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:28):
She seems to be doing okay.
All right.
She does better than I would.
Thank you,

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:33):
Elijah.
Later, can I say something else?

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:37):
We're done for now, but we'll play later.
Thank you, Elijah.
Well, anything else to wrap up,Mr.
Dan?

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:42):
No, no.
I think that's a great...
Jess, thank you so much.
It's been an absolute pleasureto have your perspective.
Maybe we can have you on again.
But yeah, just hearing it from aparent, I'm sure so many parents
will glean a lot from it.
So thank you so much for yourperspective, Jess.
It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:57):
All right.
You can say one more thing,Elijah, but you have to repeat
after me, okay?
It's our closing line.
Are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:02):
Okay, sounds good.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:03):
What we say is always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:07):
Always analyze

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:09):
responsibly.
Cheers.
ABA on Tap is recorded live andunfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.

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