ABA ADVISORY--Stop Tracking, Start Supervising: With Kamila Iacob and MentraTrack, Part I

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_05 (00:10):
Welcome to ABA on Tac, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on Tac.

(00:32):
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.

SPEAKER_02 (00:50):
Alright, alright.
Welcome back to yet anotherinstallment of ABA on tap.
I am your grateful co-host, MikeRubio, along with Mr.
Dan Lowry.
Mr.
Dan, good to see you, sir.

SPEAKER_06 (01:01):
Good to see you in person with the guest in person.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
It is a first.
It is a first.
We want to uh give our uh ashout out to our colleague Matt
Story for hosting the uh liverecording.
We tend to do a lot of work onZoom because the people we talk
to are far, far away, and todaywe realize that our guest was
local, so why not uh get to tosit uh with her in person and
and have a chat?

(01:24):
Um, you know, every every time Iget to the uh end of my
two-year, my research, there'salways a few units that are kind
of difficult.
And uh that's ethics and thenwhat else?
Supervision.
And I I get the feeling that ourguest today is gonna be able to
provide us a lot of supervisioninsight.
And I'm excited for that becauseit's uh one of those areas that

(01:46):
I think is it's difficult todevelop, difficult to expand on.
You run the risk of kind ofhearing similar themes and
topics all the time.
So super excited to see what weget into.
Uh so without further ado, uh,we'd like to introduce Camila
Yaqub.

(02:08):
All right.
Thank you so much for takingtime out of your weekend.
Lovely Sunday afternoon.
It's beautiful outside.
So we're gonna try to make thisa really intriguing two-hour
conversation and move forwardfrom there.
But thank you for joining us.
Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00 (02:21):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to be here inperson.
Usually, podcasts, like youmentioned, we do it on Zoom.
So it's really great to be herein person.

SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
That's amazing.
We'd like to start with theorigin story.
We find that most of the peoplewe talk to, even if they're
doing something different inapplication, we've all gone
through a similar experience andwe we kind of like to share
that.
Really provides a foundation forthe rest of the conversation.
So tell us what got you startedin ABA from the very beginning,

(02:50):
and then what got you to whereyou are now, and then we can
dive into your current projectsand sort of examine everything
from the beginning uh to the endand in between.

SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
I love that.
I also love hearing people'sorigin story too.
So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 (03:03):
Cool, we'll we'll share some of ours.

SPEAKER_00 (03:05):
Um, well, just like anyone else, I started as a BT.
Um, I was at a psychologyundergrad program, they required
internships.
Some were doing paidinternships, so we're doing
non-paid, and I found one thatwas paid, so I was really
excited about it.

SPEAKER_06 (03:20):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Actually, my husband told me about ABA because he had
done ABA very, very, very longtime ago, and it was very
different back then.
So it was really interesting tohear his story too.
Um, so I was a BT, I worked at aclinic.
I thought it was amazing to workwith children on the spectrum

(03:41):
and find it so rewarding on theskills that they're learning and
being able to work with parents.
I thought that was sointeresting.
There was nothing like it.
I get to meet the parents andthe children.
Um, it was at a clinic, and thenI had some hope home sessions as
well.
Moved on to getting my RBTcertification because the
company really wanted their BTsto be RBT certified.

(04:03):
Sure, sure.
Then from there on, my husbandgot a job in Washington.
It was a great opportunity.
Moved there, continued on as aBT.
And then I knew, I just from thebeginning, I knew I wanted to be
a B C B A.
Like the first day I went intosession.
I'm like, I'm gonna be a BCBA.

unknown (04:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
So it was really exciting to kind of go from the
clinic setting to an all-in-homesessions, which was in
Washington.
Um, started my grad schoolprogram, moved on to the student
analyst role.
That was, I would say, a bigpart of my experience because I
had really, really greatsupervisors and then not so

(04:42):
great supervisors.
Okay.
Um, but the great ones made me abetter clinician, and I'm
forever grateful for that.
Um, during my student analystwork, I really wanted to focus
on parent training, and I wantedto make sure parents really
understood what we were doingwhen we were going into the
home.
And even I remember my BCB, shehad like 20 years of experience

(05:06):
on me.
It was the best compliment I'veever had.
And she told me, Camilla, youwere meant to do parent
training.
Oh, nice.
And I just thought it was sosweet, but in my mind, I thought
this was normal.
I thought this is what everyonedoes when they go into ABA,
right?

SPEAKER_06 (05:22):
One would think, one would think.
Yeah, one would hope.
One would hope.

SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
Yeah.
So I was heavily involvingparents every session, parent
training.
We would do check-ins, quizzes.
I started creating like littlecurriculums.
I got really passionate aboutit.
Um, and then, you know, theystarted telling about staff
training, right?
I think you're ready to trainsome newer BTs as well because
you're doing so great withparent training.

(05:46):
So then they moved me on to umtraining newer BTs.
And in Washington, they don'thave a mid-tier position that
you can really bill for.
Um, so it was under admin andthey let me know it's gonna be
very low pay.
Are you okay with it?
I'm like, of course, this is myexperience.
I need to learn.
Um, but I remember back then alot of student analysts weren't

(06:06):
happy about it, right?
They're like, but I'm doing theexperience and I want to get
paid for it at a higher rate.
Um, and I know in Californiait's a little bit different
because we have the mid-tiermodel here.
So I focused on training newBTs, and then I would always
focus on parent training, and alot of them would come back and
say, I haven't talked aboutparent training with my

(06:27):
supervisor.
That's interesting.
Am I supposed to be doing parenttraining?
So then I felt bad.
Like, oh my gosh, I'm trainingthem something that they haven't
gotten an opportunity to discusswith their supervisor.
So then we realized,specifically in the region that
I was in, it was so small, andwe were just growing and growing
and growing.

(06:47):
I ended up taking on parents whowere on a wait list, and I would
conduct parent training withthem to kind of get them
started.
Best experience ever.
Um, and then I got certified,became a BCBA, um, got thrown
into cases really fast.
My supervisor was like, here yougo.

(07:09):
Here are your cases.
I won't be here to supervise youanymore, but I will be here if
you need me.

SPEAKER_06 (07:16):
So you figure it out now.

SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
Yeah, it was an interesting experience.

SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
You seem to be good at your job.
So now we're gonna do less foryou, throw you right in.
I mean, yeah, yeah, I've seenthe story so many times, and
it's it's interesting becauseyou know, for somebody that
that's interested and dedicatedand really willing to do the
work, you'd think you want toinvest more time in those
younger professionals, but itends up being, you know, the
need it looks like you're good.

(07:40):
Go do your thing, and that meansyou know, we're off.
We're off.

SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Yeah.
And I have a lot to say aboutthat one.
Supervisors only providepositive feedback.
So we can't wait to hear it.
Yeah.
So, you know, and I I thinkthere's also this idea of
because you're certified, you'reokay to be on your own.
But I still think to this day,actually, a lot of newly
certified BCBAs need a lot ofsupport.

SPEAKER_06 (08:05):
They don't think they do, though, because they
know everything.

SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
That's Dan's Nobody knows more than a new BCBA.
That's Dan's favorite joke.
Well, nobody should get paidmore than a brand new BCBA.
That's true.

SPEAKER_07 (08:19):
Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
All right, we digress.

SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
Um, so yeah, I became certified.
And again, I still was taking onthose parents that were on a
wait list, and it was such agreat opportunity for these
families because they had thefoundational knowledge of ABA
and what to expect.
I heavily studied the Rubycurriculum, so I would do the
Ruby curriculum with them, andthen I would also continue that

(08:47):
with them as we would start onsessions too.
And I just I loved parenttraining.
Like I told them if you have adifficult family, I will work
with them because a lot of thetimes it's not you against them.
They're still the expert, right?
This is still their child.
And I didn't have a kid backthen, but I just understood what
it would be like, right?
We're not there 24 hours a day,we're there maybe three hours a

(09:10):
day, if that.
It's a really long session nowthat I think back.

SPEAKER_06 (09:14):
Not for a lot of providers, but I would agree
100%.

SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah, I remember I was doing those three-hour
sessions.
I'm like, oh, it's a workout.

SPEAKER_06 (09:21):
Then I hear people doing five, six-hour sessions,
and I'm like, I have no idea.
I was burnt at three.

SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
I'm doing a lot of BCBA direct these days.
There's a four-hour session thatI have with two siblings.
That like you said, it's aworkout.
After afterwards, I'm I'm tired.
I'm tired.
There's no other way to put it,right?
I'm exhausted mentally, I'mexhausted physically.
They're younger.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Especially when you put in a lot of passion and
excitement.
You're like, that was a workout.

SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Yeah, yeah, I feel it.

SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Um, so then the second piece of that is I my job
is to supervise BTs, right?
So the first thing I would lookat is okay, are they a brand new
BT or are they an experiencedBT?
Because um, yes, my approachwill be different.
However, I still want to makesure that they're competent
enough to run a session and becomfortable to come to me, being

(10:11):
able to run parent trainingsessions because that was
important to me.
As much as I loved having thosemeetings too, I want the BT to
be involved with the parent justas much as I am, because they
are there in the home a lot morethan I am.
So, you know, I've learned a lotabout personality.
So that was a really fun thingfor me to learn is okay, every

(10:34):
person has a specificpersonality that you're going to
learn, right?
And some BTs are very open toworking with clinicians, whether
it was a transfer case or abrand new case.
And some are closed-minded,right?
Or some have very specific waysthat they want to run things.
But I'm not going to take thatagainst them, right?
They might not know or haveenough information to know what

(10:56):
else we can try.
Or just because the other BCBAhas tried this way and it was
probably working for a longperiod of time.
How can I work with this BT, notto just say I'm going to change
your mind?
How can we work together tolet's try this together and see
if that works, right?
So I really love the mentorshippart of supervising BTs and I

(11:19):
was nowhere near ready to signthose supervision agreements.

SPEAKER_07 (11:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
They asked me, they said, they say, can you be my
supervisor?
I want to do my field work.
I said, no, I I want to get myexperience of supervising BTs
first.

SPEAKER_07 (11:31):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
So I waited a little bit until I signed those
contracts just because I wantedto make sure that I felt
confident in even signing thosecontracts and providing them the
mentorship that they needed.
Because when it comes to fieldwork, it's a law.
And I think that's somethingthat a lot of clinicians don't
understand.
Um, they think it's just hoursand meetings.
It's so much more than that,especially for my experience.

(11:55):
Yes, I had an amazing BCBA thatsupported me through my field
work experience.
But then I also had one that waslike, sure, just do that and
I'll sign your hours.
And then we never talked aboutit.
And I had so many questions, andthose questions were not
answered.
So I I was honest with my BTs.
I said, I'm sorry, I think youcan find another supervisor at
this time.
I have, you know, her that shecan sign your hours.

(12:16):
She had like five years ofexperience.
I'm like, she's she's been doingthis, she's you know, she can
sign your contract.
Um, so I waited, and then um wewanted to move back to SoCal
because I miss the sun so much.
Washington was rough.
Yes, it's the gray, it's not somuch the rain, it's it's the
gray.

(12:36):
Yeah, and then yeah, we havesome hard rain days, but it was
it was just rough not havingsun.

SPEAKER_06 (12:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
So we decided to ordered the sun up for you
today.

SPEAKER_06 (12:46):
Yes, thank you.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
So beautiful today.
Um, so we decided to move to SanDiego, love it here.
Um, went into a clinic uh thatdid both in-home and clinic, and
that was one barrier notice atthe clinic was they were not
running parent trainingsessions.
Imagine that.
So that was interesting.
And I was going out of my way tomeet with the parents, and I

(13:12):
remember someone came up to meand said, Why are you meeting
with them outside of the clinic?
They're coming here to pick upthe child, just talk to them
here.
That's not enough for me.
I need like 45 minutes or anhour to review everything.
So sometimes we would split thesessions and go into their
homes, or I would have a videocall chat with them as well.
Um, and then that's where I wasready to sign the supervision

(13:34):
agreement, and I felt confidentthat I'm able to support the
trainees collecting theirfieldwork hours.
So I heavily focused on that,loved it.
It was amazing to just see themgrow.
I had one that I started fromthe beginning that passed their
exam.
So it was really rewarding.
I'm like, I went through thiswith you.
Yep.
Yeah.

(13:54):
And then somewhere in the middleor somewhere really early on.
And the way that I work or theway that my personality is, I
like to be challenged.
I wanted something more.
So I went and took um a clinicaldirector job.
So I transitioned, very bigchange.
I still thought I was very new,right?

(14:16):
I didn't think I was prepared.
However, when I wasinterviewing, I was not
interviewing for the clinicaldirector position.
So it was really interesting.
It was just a VCBA position.

SPEAKER_06 (14:27):
Oh, wow.
Yes.
Okay, but they offered you theclinical director.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Um, and I still love her to this day.
She mentored me the whole time Iwas there in my clinical
director position and justreally believed in me as a
clinician.
And she told me that justbecause I was certified this
year doesn't mean that I don'thave the experience to support
staff or parent training, andthat's something that they were
looking for.
And just something you someonethat was passionate and really

(14:54):
wanting to provide the best carefor children as well.

SPEAKER_06 (14:58):
So that's a lot of it, honestly, like the passion
and the desire.
Like you can teach theeducational skills, but
passion's important.

SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I took that on.
It was hard work for sure.
I learned a lot.
Um, there were things that Inever experienced before,
clients, families.
That's where I really focused onmentorship with trainees.
I oversaw so many trainees,mid-level supervisors, new BTs,

(15:26):
experienced BTs.
I did some of the training, andthen I was focusing on the
parent training at the sametime, and then, you know, all
the other clinical directortasks that you have to do on top
of that.
It's a lot.
Um, so and I loved it, reallypassionate about it.
I really enjoyed it.
Um, but we wanted to start afamily, and um, um at the end of
my maternity leave, you know, Ishe was four months old, and I

(15:50):
looked at her and I was like, Idon't think I can put you to
daycare.
I just I knew I always wanted tobe a mom and I just I loved it
so much.
And my husband and I were tryingto figure out okay, well, maybe
we'll just switch back and forthbetween meetings.
It's not possible with thefour-month-old.

SPEAKER_06 (16:08):
Not as a clinical director.

SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Yeah, and I was working really long hours, like
12 hours some days.
So it was a lot.
Um, so I put in my resignationand I stayed home with her.

SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
They were bummed.

SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
They they were sad, but I was What can we do for
you, Camilla?

SPEAKER_02 (16:25):
What it's a raise.
You need a raise.
If the issue is out, it's alwaysmoney.
Money is the issue.
Money.
Not that not that you're working12 hours a day.
When it sounds like they werepretty uh kind about it.
They weren't making you work 12hours a day.
You wanted to put that with it.

SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
I mean, it was my choice, right?
There's certain days that Ichose, or like if I started my
day later, like when I'm 36weeks pregnant, the last thing I
want to do is an 8 a.m.
meeting.

SPEAKER_07 (16:53):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
I'm like, can we push that to like 9 a.m.?
Um, so during that time, I toldmy husband, you know, I I've
been feeling really inspired.
I'm really, I really want toprovide something for the field.
And he's head of engineering ata visual ed tech company.
Um he's extremely intelligentand I know he can build

(17:16):
something.
He just it's time, right?
So he told me, you know, let'stalk about it, let's see what we
can do.
Um, he knew my passion and hewas like, But I know you, you
probably have a hundred ideas,you don't just have one.
So we narrow down to one.
I said, I want to do somethingwith parent training, but there
will be time for that and itwill happen.

(17:38):
Um and I totally forgot tomention after my clinical
director role, I took on aparenting specialty part-time
job.
I've just kept blabbering on.
But actually, just reallyquickly though, it was at a
mental health company and it wasthe best experience I ever had
when it came to parent trainingbecause these parents had no

(17:58):
experience in ABA, they didn'tknow what ABA was.
A lot of their children werediagnosed with other diagnoses,
not just autism.
It was the best.
Um, we tried to make it work, itwas about two hours a day, uh
part-time remote.
And my husband would watch mytoddler.
Um, and I got harder when shegot older.

(18:18):
She knew I was in the home.

SPEAKER_06 (18:19):
Right.
So they get mobile.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
And at the same time, around Christmas time, we
were developing Mentor Track.
So he told me, I think it's timethat you focus on Mentor Track.
And I, you know, I will continueto support you.
And it was just the bestdecision I ever made because we
created something amazing.
Um, I just had to put that inthere because it's if you're

(18:42):
glad you did think aboutparenting specialty services,
you think of just towards an ABAcompany, right?
But this was such a uniqueexperience, and I I loved it and
I wish I could continue to doit, but it's just not the timing
is not right right now.

SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
When you might think specific to autism, or so you're
you're opening it up a littlebit more, and we like that.
We like to talk about thatstuff.

SPEAKER_06 (19:04):
Yeah, but kids without autism also need support
sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Apparently.
Camilla's gonna tell us allabout that a little bit.
Who knew?
You've given us a ton to unpack,Mr.
Dan.
You've been busy on social mediaover there.
Uh, what kind of questions didyou come up with?

SPEAKER_06 (19:20):
Social media, you mean taking notes?
So I do want to go all the wayback, but before we go all the
way back, you said that umyou're explaining ABA to
parents.
How do you explain ABA toparents?
Like what pretend I'm a parent.
Like, explain ABA to me.
What do you say?

SPEAKER_00 (19:36):
So, one of the things that I focused on is
remove the jargon.

SPEAKER_06 (19:40):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
They they don't care about your terminology just
because you're studying it andyou're learning it right now.
That's the last thing that's agood idea.

SPEAKER_06 (19:46):
But it sounds so fancy.

SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
It does.
And I love it.

SPEAKER_06 (19:49):
You need more syllables.
More syllables.

SPEAKER_00 (19:51):
There was moments where I would say a word, then I
go, you know what?
Let me go back.
Um, let me rephrase that becausethis is what it actually means.
And I think I'm confusing it.
Am I confusing you?
And they would look at me, I'mconfused.

SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
See, now you find it super smart.
I'm gonna say super smartjargon, and then I'm gonna
explain it in a super smart way.
That's awesome.
Won't find that in any book.

SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
To to me, the best way toexplain something to a parent
was to me, rapport is soimportant, but I would use my
husband as an example, likerandom friends.
I would use random examples at agrocery store to apply what I'm
explaining to their child.
They're more likely tounderstand that versus me saying
something from the Cooper book.

SPEAKER_07 (20:36):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (20:36):
Um, so it's a lot of real examples, um, adult
examples, and then being like,okay, now we can kind of change
that into a child example.
Like, do you understand?
Like when I would explainsensory, right?
Because they would say sensoryis just hand flapping and
turning and rocking.
No, it's so much more than that,right?
Um we have other senses.

(20:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (20:58):
Imagine that.

SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
Yes, yes.
So that's how I would explainit.

SPEAKER_06 (21:01):
Okay.
Yeah, that was always achallenge, I feel like we so
Mike and I've been in the fieldfor he was my original
supervisor.
So it's 20 years together.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (21:13):
That's amazing.
I'll enter my this so this fall,I just entered my 29th year, I
guess.
Okay.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:22):
We have a lot of experience.

SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
In or around the field.
Child, child development and uhspecial ed and ABA.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (21:28):
We relate so much to what you're saying.
Um, because the last company,well, the company before the
last one, the last one foughtout that company.
We kind of had free reign um foreight years-ish, somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
Yeah, somewhere in the better part of ten years,
probably.

SPEAKER_06 (21:43):
Yeah.
Um, so we were Mike was directorof early child.
Early child development.
I don't even remember what mytitle was, director of
operations or somewhere in thatlane.
Um, but we created parenttraining curriculum because we
just saw it was so important.
We created parent groups, whichI ran for the better part of
eight years.
It was exciting.

(22:03):
We ran some in person and thenCOVID hit, so it kind of went to
live stream.
Um, but there was just so muchdynamism, and it's so cool to
see parents like in a in a roomand just being able to share
examples and things like that.
Because especially newerparents, they just a lot of
times got a diagnosis.
They've got a child, they a lotof times it's either their first
child or certainly their firstchild with autism.

(22:23):
They don't know if it's quoteunquote normal what their
child's doing.
They just have all thesequestions, and if we hit them
with these big terms, it doesn'thelp anything.
So hearing another parent belike, Yeah, my child used to do
that too, was just so so niceand so empowering for these
parents.
And we did that.
Um, we started dad's groupsbecause usually it was moms, and
they were like, you know, you myhusband needs to hear this, and

(22:44):
I go home and I'd tell him, andhe doesn't listen to me.
So you gotta tell him.
So we would do dad's groups, andthat was that was super cool and
and really enlightening.
And it was it was actuallyreally cool because I mean, we'd
have a lot of military in SanDiego and things like that, and
you would see these these dadsthat were like, you know,
military dads and would been towar and stuff like that would
talk about my child's first IEPwas the hardest thing I've ever

(23:07):
been to.
And it's like, wow, that'sthat's cool.
And hearing it from theirperspective, right?
Because traditionally we wouldjust hear the situations from
the mom perspective, and we'dhear from the dad's perspective,
like, yeah, I just got I wasworking all day and I got home
and I wasn't part of thesession, but my wife's mad at me
because I don't know what to do.
I'm trying to help out.
So I'm just sharing this for youbecause we've been huge into the

(23:28):
parent involvement and wethought it was something that's
been lacking for a long time.
So we really relate to that atour new company.
We have one parent group thatstarted, we do it on Mondays.
Um, it's one of the things thatsome of the parents that knew us
from our previous company wereso excited.
Um expansion is so important.
Um, so many parents, not as muchanymore, but still sometimes

(23:49):
they will call and they'd belike, Well, you know, I've heard
somebody gets 40 hours.
Will you give my kid 40 hours?
And it's like, no, we we won't,but we'll give you as many hours
as you want as the parentbecause you're gonna be with
that kid.
We're gonna be with them acouple hours a day.
You'll be with them a lotlonger.
So it doesn't matter whether wegive them two hours or 12 hours
in a day, you're still gonna bewith them way longer.
Yeah.
So yeah, we've been a hugeproponent, and it's awesome to

(24:11):
hear kind of your journeybecause we really vibe with
that.

SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
I'm gonna date myself here, but I'm from back
in the day where you'd go in forthe intake evaluation, and one
of the questions was Do you havea space in your home that's
isolated so that we can do ourdiscrete trial training?
Meaning we're gonna exclude youfrom the beginning, mom and dad.
Because a lot of it waslogistics, a lot of it was

(24:36):
behavior management.
We've got a young BT, and yeah,if mom and dad are around, it's
gonna be a lot harder to gainthis instructional control idea.

SPEAKER_06 (24:45):
And then they tantrum, and now that's
attention-seeking control.

SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
And that's uh and that must be we're back to the
diagnostic traits as opposed tothe idea that this is a
five-year-old and you're forcingthem to do something, and
they're advocating forthemselves, and you're failing
to reinforce that aspect of it.
So it's come a long way, and I'mI'm happy to see that,
especially given that uh I comefrom more of a developmental
track.
So uh without getting too farinto my background, I did really

(25:10):
well uh early on after undergradas a young professional in this
developmental lab school whereit was idyllic and everything
was built for two to five yearolds and got good at handling
the uh four to five-year-oldboys' behavior, running around
in packs and terrorizing thegirls.
I could get them to sit at snackand listen.
That does that stops at five?

(25:31):
I don't know.
I don't know if it stops atfive.
All I know is it stopped at fivethere.

SPEAKER_03 (25:34):
I don't know if it stops at four.

SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
So so you're speaking for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 (25:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kaylee would say it's still itnever leaves.

SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
So so I had colleagues go, hey, you know,
you you should really look intothat.
You're you're good with uh withbehavior.
And I, you know, took a shiftover to a job at a non-public
school, and it was just a starkcontrast.
It was crazy from environment toenvironment, and being like,
what why is this so sterile?
How come there's no materialsavailable?
Oh, because they throw them.

(26:04):
So you your answer was to removethem completely.
When do they come back?
Never.
Well then how do we ever resolvethe behavioral issue?
So, I mean, again, I'm skippinga lot of details there, and I
think that we just do a lot ofvery restrictive things
sometimes in the name ofbehavior management.
You're talking about somethingmuch more open-ended.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (26:23):
So the one of the first things you said, I think
you said your husband was in ABAbefore you, right?
Uh I think you said it was verydifferent then.
What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Well, the way that he explained data collection to
me um didn't seem like there wasa lot of data collection.
Okay.
Um, and he's five five yearsolder than me.
Yeah.
Um, he told me one of theirsessions was at a basketball
court, which I love,environmental play.
We love that.
Um, being able to have thatfreedom, right?

(26:54):
Not be so restrictive, always inthe home.
I also love community outings,they're the best.
Grocery stores were gonna workon it.
Um, so just the way theyexplained to me, and then
certain like terminology andcertain behavior modification,
um, it just wasn't quite there.
It was just very um loose andflexible.

(27:15):
And when I told him this is whatwe do at the clinic, and he was
like, This is very different,and it's a lot more developed.
Um, and I'm I'm trying to thinkhow long ago that was.
It had to be when he was in highschool, I want to say, or maybe
straight out of high school.
Um, but it was just verydifferent than we were doing
because when I started my BTrole, it was data collection,

(27:38):
very strict, right?
This is what we're gonna do, andum, these are the behaviors
we're going to work on, andthese are the interventions.
And then you have these parents.
He I don't he never did parenttraining.
I don't think he met the parentseither.
Uh it seemed like a verydifferent setting that he was
doing, but they called it ABA.

SPEAKER_07 (27:57):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
It's interesting how that that's uh all evolved,
right?
So I know that um where we firststarted, there was a lot of
teach influence in that ABA.
I think a lot of that's alsobecome pervasive.
So a lot of the the visualicons, things that um I think
have been adapted.
It's not to say that it's notABA or can't be used uh you know
to to uh strengthen acontingency or whatnot, but um

(28:22):
yeah, it's been interesting tosee that throughout our career.
Um and we've become maybe alittle bit more uh so the idea
of structure, I think, issomething we like to talk about.
Which you're mentioning again,going back to our start, right?
We had the uh the huge uh threering uh three-inch uh three-ring
binders that looked likeunderbridged dictionaries, uh
that just had copious amounts ofpapers and and stuff that um, in

(28:46):
my opinion, really detractedfrom the interaction.
So you it was like the uhtexting and driving, right?

SPEAKER_07 (28:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (28:54):
So it's really terrible interaction.
And then yeah, you can go toofar to the other side and you're
not collecting data.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe the uh the middle ground, uh
the the right amount and whatyour opinion is on that.

SPEAKER_00 (29:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So when I was in Washington, I Ihad a BT that was very much
focused on data, and thisdoesn't mean they shouldn't be,
right?
We need data, we need to analyzethe data, right?
But it was at the point where itwas taking away from the
interaction with the child, andI noticed that and I let her
know okay, you tracked yourdata, let's go back and connect

(29:30):
with the child, right?
We need to always be pairing.
Pairing is so important, it'snot something that you just do
at the beginning.
Pairing is constant, same withthe parents as well.
So, the way that I would trainBTs and work with them is yes,
some of them have iPads.
I did pen and paper when I wasin Washington.
It was really hard graphingthat.

SPEAKER_06 (29:51):
Um, we did that for years and then we were
transferred to the Excel sheetfor the report, and man.

SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
And you couldn't connect the dots freehand, had
to be a ruler.
That's true.
It had to be around.
Otherwise, apparently it throwsoff your entire function.

SPEAKER_06 (30:04):
It's like if you don't do 10 trials.

SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
It made no sense to me mathematically, but man, if
you didn't do it, you were introuble.
So negative reinforcement allaround.
I'm doing it.
Get off my back.
Anyway, continue.

SPEAKER_00 (30:18):
Um, so the way that I would work with BTs is my goal
is I don't want this session tobe so, I'm gonna use the word
rigid and structured, right?
There can be some structure.
I want the child to enjoy theirsession.
That's my number one goal.
I want them to be excited to seethe BT.
And sometimes that might not bethe case with the older clients,

(30:40):
right?
They might say, oh, you again.
I'm like, I'm sorry, I know, Iknow you don't want to see me,
but I have some fun games we canplay today, so maybe you'll
forgive me.
But um, for the BT to know howcan we balance the session out
so it's not so rigid.
There's some BTs that are soheavily focused on flashcards,

(31:01):
and they think that they canonly run that program through a
flashcard.
Flashcards are great.
My toddler loves them, and thenthe next day she hates them,
right?
That's normal too.
So I would try to focus on thebalance of can we teach this
another way?
It's not more work, it's morefun.
It's it could feel also morenatural for BTs.

(31:23):
And I had BTs that were verytransparent with me and said,
I've only done flashcards withmy previous supervisor, and we
sit at the table and we do workfor an hour, two hours.
And then the only break that thechild gets is from that table,
but that break, they're not eveninteracting with the BT because
they're working for the break toremove the BT?

SPEAKER_06 (31:41):
Isn't that weird?
You talked about data, right?
So historically, the way ABAsessions would work, right, is
we would run our programs andthen we would take data while
they're on a break.
So we then just remove ourselvesfrom all the fun stuff.
Or the we present the not stufffun stuff, and then we take the
data and then they do the funstuff.

SPEAKER_02 (31:58):
It's so motivation is only extrinsic, motivation is
only tangible.
There's no way our interactioncould have been motivating after
a set of promos.
It's called rapport.

SPEAKER_07 (32:09):
Is that what rap rapport?

SPEAKER_06 (32:12):
Is that what we call it?
Or with flashcards, wedeconstruct their whole
environment and then we put itinto flashcards.
It's like we can't we can't playin the environment.
We gotta take the picture of thecar and put it on a flashcard.
Oh, and then they can identifythe flashcard, but not an actual
car.
I like um you use the wordstructured, both of you did, but
you've kind of changed yourterminology.
Um, I think, and it's been apretty effective uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
Yeah.
We talk about um adult directedversus child directed.
Uh and I that resonates with me.
And I think it it creates aconversation for that dance.
Um I I'm very keen on earlyintervention, even
pre-diagnostic.
Uh so for me, coming from adevelopmental background, that
child-directed play-basedorientation is key.

(32:56):
Um there's almost no other wayto start, in my opinion.
And then the idea that once youdo that enough, guess what
happens if you are respectfullyin a child's space over time and
talking to them and showing themstuff?
One day you're gonna show up andthey're gonna get right next to
you, and then that's your cue.
Now you might be able to directsomething that you've planned.
I like the way you described ittoo.

(33:17):
It's not just that you come inthere completely willy-nilly,
but there's a certain um, Iguess, ego you have to put aside
when you've overly structuredyour session and you get there,
and a four or five, you know,four or five-year-old,
six-year-old completelysabotages it as they're built to
do, whether they have autisticautism or not, that's what young
kids are supposed to do.

(33:38):
Oh, this is your plan.
Let me try to completely mess itup and then let's see what you
do in response.

SPEAKER_04 (33:43):
And Mike has a four-year-old of his own.

SPEAKER_02 (33:45):
Yeah, I do.
I do have I have I have 19, 16,and 4.
So I've yeah, I had to have thewhat do you say then?
I had to have the four-year-oldto bring up my chops.
I was getting a little rusty.
So I had to get another child tomake sure I could I could stay
honest with my chops.
But no, I I I like that, andit's hard to teach that um to
RBTs, for example.

(34:05):
That's difficult.
A lot of them will say it's alot harder.
And it's like, well, you eitherput in all the thought process
on the front end and thenrealize that you're gonna have
to improvise a little bit, ormaybe get overly authoritarian
in your session, and then you'rehaving behaviors that may or may
not be related to the actualchild.
They might be telling you no onsomething and you're just not
listening because your plan isso nicely structured.

(34:27):
And then on the other end, youyou can be ready when they're
not interested in 50 things youbrought.
What's 51?
You're gonna have to come upwith something, right?
In order to get back into tobuild that rapport, to let them
know that you acknowledge theirnegation.
Oh, you're not you you're sayingno.
I'm gonna listen, I'm backingup.
That's part of rapport too.
I'm gonna I'm gonna payattention to what you're saying.

(34:49):
Yeah, and then I'm gonna expressinterest in what you're doing,
and then maybe I have to figureout how that stimulus fits into
my plan in terms of these goalsthat I have to take data on.

SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
Be a little more creative.

SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
It's and and I can see where it's a little more
difficult.
Yeah.
What I like about the uh moreopen-ended child directed piece
um and some of the techniquesthat we've um you know taken
from other brilliant people, uh,is how much we've created a
situation where the BT is forcedto pay attention.
So things like contingentimitation, we're gonna do what

(35:23):
the child's doing within reasonand respectfully.
We're gonna linguistically mapwhat's happening in the
environment and what we'redoing.
And those two things serve onepurpose.
I don't want you to take data onthat because you're the one
that's throwing out thebehavior.
But you can't contingentlyimitate or linguistically map
without paying full attention tothat child and their surrounding

(35:43):
environment.
And it works.
Again, you now you thecreativity maybe comes a little
more easily because youunderstand what makes them tick,
what they don't want to do.
Uh, you get to learn whateverybody else has forced them
to do.
That's right.
I was working with a uh a childjust this past week, and uh the
concern was um getting, youknow, uh through challenges with

(36:04):
homework or academic tasks,right?
And we were doing just fine, andthe parent walks in, and
immediately the child shuts downand she starts offering very
rightfully so, very logically,offering correction and all
these grammatical rules, and youknow, telling me, you know, you
were supposed to make him readthat sentence before he had to
do.
And it's like, he was actuallyanswering the questions, okay,

(36:26):
and now he's shutting down.
And I, you know, had aconversation with that parent
saying, You're not doinganything wrong.
However, is he doing what youwould expect him to do after you
put forth your help?
Well, no, he just withdraws.
Okay, so who needs to changehere?
He wasn't doing that with me.
It's not to say that I was doingeverything perfectly, or we all

(36:48):
were also lacking thereinforcement history.
But that's what we're seeinghere is you showed up and it was
like, oh no.
And I think a lot of it, too,without being able to quantify
it, the child was just afraid tolet uh to see their parents'
disappointment.
So that was part of theirfrustration.
I could see immediately whereshe corrected him, and he was
like, Oh, like I didn't want youto correct me, and then let me
try again quickly.

(37:08):
And oh, I got it wrong again.
So you just saw this decline.
It was like, okay, yes, he'sgonna change his behavior, but
guess who gets to change itfirst?

SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
There's history, but yeah, yeah.
That's a hard one for parents.

SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Yeah, he was doing so well for you, and then I came
in.
I know, weird, right?
I I wonder what it was.
Let me do a quick analysis here.
That's a mighty you.
And again, the great mom, greatresponsive parent.
Not, you know, you look at thewhole scene, and it would be
easy to go, wow, that child hasdiscipline problems.

(37:43):
I don't know.
Maybe, I don't know, maybe yes,maybe no, but they were
responding differently just twominutes ago, and now we've got
this reinforcement history thatkicked right in.
Yeah.
And there we go.
I mean, you you get to deal withthis stuff all the time.
How how do you you know talk toa parent who immediately says,
Oh, you're saying it's my fault?

(38:05):
Right?
I'm sure you've heard thatbefore.
Oh, wait, you're saying I but mychild's the one that has the
diagnosis and the behaviorissues, they need to change.
You're saying that that's theparent?

SPEAKER_00 (38:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:16):
Talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (38:18):
It's a hard one.
And you know, I had parents cryduring parent training sessions,
and I had parents straight upask me, like, so is this my
fault?
Right.
And I'm not gonna go and say,Yes, this is your fault.

unknown (38:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (38:33):
Um, I'm like, okay, I how do I explain this in a
professional way?
But I also need to be empathetictoo, right?
To their situation.
So the way that I haveconversations with families,
it's I I haven't seen a lot ofclinicians do this, and I
heavily focused on training thisto my trainees, is you need to
be transparent, honest, kind,but you can still be firm, kind

(38:56):
but firm, right?
And that's some of theapproaches that I took when I
did parenting specialty coursesas well.
Um, we don't need to yell togive an instruction, it's just
as effective if we go thereeye-level, eye to eye, and
calmly repeat that instruction,right?
And a lot of parents don't knowthat.
So, with families, when theyeither disagree with a parent
training intervention or theyfeel like they've done something

(39:21):
wrong, I focus on what can we donext.
Let's not focus on the momentright now, especially when
they're frustrated.
Well, first I want to make surethey're calm down and I
highlight the positives thattheir child has done, right?
And I explain the science behindit in a normal way where they
can understand, right?
The history of reinforcement,um, the way that the dad has

(39:45):
responded, the way that mom hasresponded, right?
And then focusing on yes, wehave data to support that when
he does this and you respondthis way, this is what happens.
We come back and we look at thedata in the best way possible
where the parent understands.
And sometimes I had parents thatsay your data is not correct,
right?
So then you have to have adifferent conversation outside

(40:08):
of that, and it's almost like atwo-hour meeting because now you
have a parent who doesn'tbelieve your data, right?
And that's a hard one.
And that's okay.
I think there are some parentsthat don't want to change their
own behavior, and that's notsomething I can do, right?
That's really hard.
Um, I try and I do my best, andI'm so proud of the ones where I
have been able to help supportchange their behavior so that

(40:29):
they're able to better supporttheir child, but there are some
parents that I haven't been ableto because they would come back
and say, I'm not doing that.
I'm going to continue usingtimeout.
This is what we do, right?
And this works.
And then I always come back tothe behavior is continuing to
happen.
Right.
Has it been successful?

(40:49):
Let's talk about that a littlebit more.
Um, so you know, again, beingvery calm, passionate,
respectful, I always come backto it.
Is your child?
You are the expert.
I'm not here sitting telling youwhat to do.
I'm here to help you and supportyou.
I want to work together, right?
Can we try this for two weeks,one month, three months, and

(41:11):
then come back?
And if it's still not working,we will re-evaluate and we will
look into something else.
We will look at the data, wewill be here.
Just because I tell them to runan intervention doesn't mean
that they will agree to do it ordoes not mean that they're happy
to do it.
I've had some parents that say,I guess I could do that, but I'm
not really happy to do it, butthen we're not gonna do it.

(41:34):
Right.
I it needs to feel not justnatural, but I mean it's so
unnatural for some parents to docertain things, right?
And they're like, I've neverdone this before.
And I always come back to in ABAparent training, it's not just
parent training and ABA.
I think of it as so much more.

SPEAKER_07 (41:50):
Sure.

SPEAKER_00 (41:50):
And that's what I loved about the position that I
did uh at the mental healthcompany, is it was amazing.
It was all telehealth.
Like to see the parentsgraduate.
I never met the kid ever.
They worked with a therapist, anLMFT.
I collaborate with the LMFT onceor twice a week.
Okay, it was amazing.
I got so much insight.

(42:12):
It was beautiful.
And I got to understand, youknow, if they had depressive
symptoms, my interventionchanges, right?
Because I have to stay within myscope and follow my ethics and
make sure that I'm doing thingscorrectly.
We had clients that weresuicidal, so interventions were
very different and modified.
And for parents to come back andsay, I wish I knew more about

(42:34):
like just being a parent becausethat's what they ended up
learning too, right?
I know that was a very longanswer to your question, but
that's great.

SPEAKER_06 (42:43):
That was great.
You covered a lot of ground.
Yeah.
We actually changed uh so weused to call it parent training
when we first did it, and wechanged it to parent education.
Um that was a good idea.
Parent education and ABA almostspecifically.
Yeah, parent ABA education,yeah.
Because I mean, I I'm not aparent and I would run a lot of
these courses, and who am I totrain anybody on how to be a
parent?

SPEAKER_02 (43:01):
Um the way you would put it too in the beginning,
right?
Like, hey, you're it becauseusually the the kid was in group
and then the parent would dropthem off and they would come sit
with us, and it was like, Youryour kid made it here.
They're dressed, they've eaten,they've maybe brushed their
teeth a few times this week.
We don't need to train you onthat.
You know how to be a parent.
Your child is safe and sound.

SPEAKER_07 (43:21):
Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:22):
You're saying there's some behaviors that
create challenges for you, yourchild, perhaps your family.
Maybe some of those areexhibited in schools.
And I think it was a veryimportant distinction.
Um as you were talking, onething that that resonated with
me is we're always we're alwaysunder this impression that
something's wrong and needs toget fixed.

(43:42):
Yeah.
And I think that that that isnot entirely untrue.
However, if you lead with that,it might cause a lot more
frustration.
I in the way you were um talkingabout addressing parents and and
sort of the empowerment processyou go with them, uh, it it just
made me think, you know, so muchof the interventions that um we
offer parents sometimes wantthem to be hacks.

(44:04):
And we can do that, and but ifall you're doing are behavioral
change hacks, you're not gonnaget through the actual process.
And again, that's what you'retalking about is what I'm
telling you to do may not changethe behavior in that moment.
It may not lead to the desiredbehavior in that moment.
I'm asking you to put it forth.
It makes me think of I'mcurrently doing some PT for a

(44:26):
torn rotator, and it's very uhanalogous.
I was talking to my physicaltherapist, and she was like,
Yeah, if you don't do the work,it's not gonna get better.
And if you do a little bit ofthe work, you'll notice a little
bit of improvement.
Uh, and hopefully that's enoughto make you propel forward, or
it might hurt and be sore enoughthat then you don't do it.
And I was like, that's exactlywhat I have to do with clients
and parents, right?

(44:46):
Because we want this magic wand,we want this trick, but that's
not what it is.
And I think a lot of um the ABAthat I was exposed to early on
was a lot about just making thecrying stop.
And I think we've learned somuch more about that.
And it's not to say that youwant the crying to endure, but
the idea that you're just gonnaflip a switch and make it stop,
that's not not the case.

(45:08):
Not the case.

SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
I've I've told parents, this is my favorite
thing to say.
My job is to not make your childstop crying, they will always
cry.

SPEAKER_06 (45:17):
Sure.
There's a there's a quote thatwe um that we put in our
project.
We're doing a proje for parents,and uh one of the quotes is your
job isn't to make the child nothave a tantrum, it's for you to
not have a tantrum while they'rehaving a tantrum.

SPEAKER_00 (45:30):
Yes.
Reaction.
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (45:32):
Let's uh let's uh I'm gonna have to skip into this
just because you mentioned thatI I like to say here on the show
and everywhere else, and to theparent I was talking to last
week, these things I'm tellingyou, I can preach them all day
long.
And then I have to go home to myfour-year-old.
Um, share with us a little bitabout that.
So the staying calm.

(45:54):
You it's a great idea.
It's it's perfect in theory,it's exactly what we're supposed
to do.
And then you go have to go hometo your your child.
What's what's your success rate?
How does that work for you?

SPEAKER_06 (46:05):
How much better did nobody's perfect child make you
a parent training?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I would say it definitely mademe more passionate, if not.
I I don't know how else toexplain, but when I had my
daughter and I was doing theparenting specialty um position,
I would always use examples withmy daughter, and that always
helps during parent training,right?
And she's so little too, andthey're like, well, it's not
like she can do much, but it'sso much beyond of just behavior

(46:33):
management, right?
A lot of the work that I focusedon, I think you pointed this out
a little bit, is connection isso important between a parent
and a child relationship.
And that's something that umunfortunately I didn't see in
some of the sessions, whether Iwas in a clinical director
position, the parentingspecialty position, and the
parent would mention, I don'treally play with them because

(46:54):
they don't ask me to play withthem.
And, you know, a lot of thetimes we figure out there's no
one-on-one time with your child.
And we have these, you know, Iwould start with, let's start
with five minutes a day.
And then I the parent comesback, oh my gosh, it was
amazing.
It was so great.
And I'm like, okay, great, let'sdo 10 minutes.
You're doing great.
Move on to 10 minutes, and thenwe get up to 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_06 (47:16):
But don't you have to do five minutes across 10
sessions before you can move on?
Oh, what?

SPEAKER_02 (47:23):
Percent correct, right?
80 80% across the cross.

SPEAKER_06 (47:25):
It's got to be 80% across three people.
You can't move on before you doit.

SPEAKER_02 (47:28):
Two environments.

SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
Very specific.
Oh no, now we failed theprogram.

SPEAKER_02 (47:33):
Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (47:34):
Now we can't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
Now the RBT doesn't know how to run this.
This is so well planned, nobodyknows how to execute it.

SPEAKER_00 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, so I I definitely thinkhaving her is and it's amazing
because there's certainsituations.
I mean, she's tantruming rightnow, I'll be honest.
Right.
She has her tantrum.
No, right now she's sleeping.

SPEAKER_02 (47:59):
Your spidey sense.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:01):
She might tantrum when she wakes up.

SPEAKER_02 (48:02):
My four-year-old might be throwing a tantrum
right now.

SPEAKER_00 (48:06):
Um, and the like even when I would take read rant
I read a lot of like parentingbooks and stuff and podcasts.
I love listening to podcasts.
And I always come back to, Idon't want the child to learn
something from yelling orpunishment, right?
And that's what a lot of parentscome to me too, is they say,

(48:26):
Well, they did this and I'm nothappy with it and I'm so
disappointed, so I sent them totheir room.
That's what they wanted.
They wanted to go to their roomwhen we, you know, determine
later on that's what happened,right?
Um, so with her, the biggestthing I try to remember is I
need to stay calm and I need tostay present, right?
She cannot communicate to meright now.

(48:47):
She has phrases that she'ssaying and it's great, but can
she communicate when she'sreally upset and frustrated?
No, she's crying.
She does this thing where shedrops to the ground and does
like the Superman, and then shelooks up to see if I'm looking,
and I'm there.
I'm making sure she's safe andshe's okay.

SPEAKER_06 (49:05):
Um the Superman.

SPEAKER_00 (49:07):
It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (49:09):
That's when you flail your arms and legs at the
same time on the cape when shedoes Superman.

SPEAKER_06 (49:13):
That was you could have put a towel on her.

SPEAKER_02 (49:19):
In the moment interventions here on ABA on
tap.
What do you do when your childtantrums and throws his books on
the floor and flails dummy down?
Give him a cape.
Give him a cape.

SPEAKER_00 (49:28):
Watch me send you a picture of like your interview.

SPEAKER_06 (49:31):
Please do, please do.

SPEAKER_00 (49:32):
Um, so I I remember that, and I, you know, I think
about I I'm not gonna ignorecertain behaviors just because
she's misbehaving, and I'm quotequoting, right?
She's not misbehaving, she'struly having a hard time.
Like with Legos, for example.
We were doing Legos, she doeslike the huge Legos, it's so
exciting.
She can stack them and play withthem.

(49:53):
But um, there was a piece that Iwas taking apart, and she got
really frustrated.
And I'm like, I'm so sorry, thatwas completely my fault.
Versus, I think of situationswhen I was a BT and my
supervisor would tell me, Oh no,now remove the token because he
cried because you did this, butit was my fault.

SPEAKER_06 (50:13):
Well, they need to say, I want Lego.
It has to be those three wordsbefore you can stop ignoring
them.

SPEAKER_02 (50:20):
Well, the Lego would have to be a separate icon, you
put it onto the center strip.

SPEAKER_06 (50:25):
Correct.

SPEAKER_02 (50:25):
And it can't be can I have Lego.

SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
And we can't accept pointing either.
Nope.
Apparently.

SPEAKER_02 (50:30):
Not if you're running PEX.
No.
No, you can't.
Your data will be skewed.
Yeah.
We get a little facetious herewith the old school ABA.
Yeah.
No, for just a just a tiny bit.
Yeah.
Um, I I really want to highlightthe importance of what you're
saying with she's truly having ahard time versus misbehaving.

(50:51):
Um, I don't know if there'sanything else you can lend.
I mean, uh that's such a hardconcept to try and um
understand, to relay to parents,the idea that you talk about
this very well.
Crying as communication.
Now, crying is a stimulus that'sgonna alert us instinctively as
parents that there might besomething wrong that we have to

(51:11):
fix.
Child might be in danger, whichyou know, without these larger
foreheads, maybe that would bethe case every time.
But now we can work ourselves upinto that frenzy.
Socially, we can look at it asmisbehavior or a lack of
discipline, and you're sayingthe child's truly just
expressing what they feel inthat moment, that's the way it

(51:33):
sounds, and you gotta work to doit.

SPEAKER_00 (51:35):
Yeah, is that yeah, yeah.
And I I have that's a hardbargain to sell.

SPEAKER_02 (51:39):
That's not easy to sell.

SPEAKER_00 (51:40):
Oh, it is.
And I mean, I had BTs that wouldsay, but you're reinforcing it.

SPEAKER_02 (51:45):
Ooh, right?

SPEAKER_00 (51:47):
I'm a BCBA and the BT is telling me that.
I'm like, but they truly wanttheir mom.
It's like a three-year-old.
They're saying, I want mom.
So we're just going to say no tomom.
And this is before I even had akid, too.

SPEAKER_02 (52:00):
What a great quandary, right?
Do I do I reinforce thecommunication or do I punish the
tone?
Is what the BT is saying there.
And logically, anybody who'ssticking to discipline is gonna
say, Well, you punish that tone.
And it doesn't matter if whatthe words they said were
appropriate.
They screamed when they saidthey said it the wrong way.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:21):
Yeah.
I always tell parents, we'llwork on the tone later, like
when I would work withteenagers.
I like that.
Um, and even when I was doingremote, one of the moms told me,
like, she did it, but she rolledher eyes and walked away and
told me she was gonna go to herroom.
I'm like, that's amazing.
We we worked on this, we talkedabout this.
Her room is her safe space.

(52:42):
Did she do what you asked her todo?
And we also worked on the waymom delivered instruction.
Mom did amazing.
I was so proud of her.
I'm like, I wish I was there.
And then I was like, but did shedo it?
She said, Yes, but she rolledher eyes.
We'll work on the rolling eyeslater.
And then I have thisconversation about she's a
teenager.
It's going to happen.
I roll my eyes and I'm an adult.

(53:03):
You can't ask me to not roll myeyes in certain situations.
It's going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 (53:08):
Look, mom, you probably said something pretty
ridiculous as far as yourteenager was concerned.
You may not think it wasridiculous.
Yeah, we did.
And that's okay.
Yeah.
My I've got one at home with a16-year-old, and I I'm the
worst.
I am I can't say anything funnyor accurate.

SPEAKER_00 (53:27):
So no jokes.

SPEAKER_02 (53:28):
I don't know what I'm talking about.
I can make the jokes, she's justnot gonna laugh.

SPEAKER_00 (53:32):
Oh I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 (53:34):
Oh no, uh, no, there it is.

SPEAKER_07 (53:38):
I was like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 (53:42):
Um, so so basically Camila's saying, let's reinforce
eye rolling, is what she'ssaying.
It's it's okay if your teenageis eye-roll.
It's such a hard thing toexplain to people.
Um, because we the the generalmantra of discipline is
punishment.
I'm gonna raise my voice, I'mgonna yell at you, I'm gonna
threaten to take something away.

(54:02):
And and we, you know, we comealong with this great
reinforcement uh sure you knowplatform, and that that's hard.
That's hard.
I think as a parent, and youmight begin to feel this you
give an instruction once, twice,three times, and your child
defies you.
And there's a there's there's apersonal feel to that.

(54:24):
Why you little you can I'm theone that's in charge here.
Now you come in and you'reteaching parents, you gotta put
that aside.
Easier said than done.
Any tricks you've got for that,any good phrasing you've got for
that.
What have you learned foryourself about that in terms of
like, did you really just turnaway from me and your how old's

(54:46):
your child?

SPEAKER_00 (54:46):
She's 17 months.
Oh, there's plenty of sex.
No, so much.

SPEAKER_02 (54:50):
Oh, she's she's in the no phase.

SPEAKER_00 (54:52):
That's what it started so early.
It started at 15 months, and I'mlike, That is early.
Is this normal?
And I'm like Googling too.
I'm like, I know about childdevelopment, but this is like a
lot.
You're saying no a lot.
That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 (55:03):
That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
Oh, yeah.
She started with the shakinghead no, which I'm like, yeah,
great.
We we worked a lot on signlanguage, and then she started
saying no at 15 months, and Iwas like, Does she know what
she's saying no to?
And then it kept going, and nowit's a lot of no, like it's even
like I'm playing with her and Icould no, I haven't even done
anything yet.

(55:24):
Um, I I do give her choices.
No.
Like, okay, and then sometimesI'll ask her, like, hey, do you
want this snack?
No.
Like, okay, well, these are thesnacks I have for you.
And I'm really big on like, I'mnot gonna keep offering you more
and more snacks.
I gave you choices, and this iswhat I'm going to offer you at
this time.
But she she's okay, she getsthrough it.
Um it's interesting becausethere's certain things that I

(55:49):
think of like, oh, this is soABA, but it's not, it's such a
normal thing to do, right?

SPEAKER_02 (55:55):
I love that because you're right.
You you are noticing acontingency that you're putting
forth.
Yeah, so it's very true.

SPEAKER_00 (56:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:03):
And then I like the other side of it too.
Like even with behavioralchallenges, being able to
explain to parents, um, thisisn't, I'm not a diagnostician,
this isn't necessarily theautism.
This is just yourfive-year-olds.
Now, there may be languagedelays, communication
difficulties that exacerbatethis.
I understand that.

(56:23):
However, and it's hard to teasethat apart.
This this is normal.
All five-year-olds will tantrumat least once a day between one
and five minutes per theliterature, right?
Yeah, this is normal.
Well, and in our case, but theyhave autism.
So normalcy within the autisticdiagnosis behaviorally, that's a

(56:44):
hard sell for parents sometimes.
I gotta do a little quick uhdisclosure here, a story with my
four-year-old.
Um, we go do the groceryshopping every Saturday morning,
and it's always a uh discussion.
So, yes, you're gonna be able tobuy a toy today.
No, today is not a toy day.
Okay.
We're getting closer.
It's fall now.

(57:05):
We can start pitching theholidays.
Oh, put that on your list.

SPEAKER_00 (57:09):
Okay.
So yesterday, take a picture.

SPEAKER_02 (57:11):
Oh, save our favorite right now.
I didn't I didn't have a wecould only take a picture in our
minds when I was young.
Now you can actually take apicture.
Um, so yesterday was a uh we'regonna go to the do the grocery
shopping, and then we're goingto the mall to pick up some of
mom's jewelry, um, and there'sstuff there that you're gonna

(57:31):
want.
So you're gonna have to choose.
If you buy something at thegrocery store, there's a lot of
conditions here, then there'snothing to buy at the mall,
right?
It's a four-year-old, so shedecided to get something in the
moment at the grocery store.
It's exciting, it's right there.
Something she'd been waitingfor.
We made it clear.
Okay, good.
Now that means when we go to themall, of course, four-year-old,

(57:53):
you're gonna stick to the deal.
You're not gonna want somethingelse, of course, right?
Prefrontal cortex.
We we've I've primed herbehaviorally.
So of course, this is you didthe first thing.
Now we're ready.
Yep.
I did the conditionals.
You bought this, you can't buythat, right?
Of course, it's gonna workbeautifully.
Camila said it would during ourparent training session.
So it's not gonna go wrong.

(58:14):
The child's not gonna explodeand cry all the way out of the
mall after we know.
So that's what she did.

SPEAKER_06 (58:21):
Of course.

SPEAKER_02 (58:21):
So right, two B C BA parents and a school
psychologist.
Of course.
She's gonna be she's gonnabehave perfectly, right?
As I'm sure as we walked out ofthe mall, every parent in that
mall was like, well, look atthat bratty child who's probably
used to getting whatever shewants all the time.
See how it's hitting the egoalready?
So we were driving in the carback home, and this resonated
with me with what you weresaying, and I started getting a

(58:44):
little bit upset.
It's it's I don't want to hearthe smoke alarm, right?
That's that's the uh example Iuse.
That's the smoke alarm, and I'mfanning it, and it won't go off.
And I'm really frustratedbecause I don't want to hear
that sound anymore.
And then she started saying, butI really want it, and you're
driving away, and some otherkid's gonna buy it.
And in that moment, I was like,wow, that's a that's really sad.

(59:10):
Like, I get it, I get it.
Now, it it didn't completelymake my irritation go away, but
at least I had enough empathy tonot raise my voice, yell back,
all the things that I can tellparents all day long.
But in that moment, I had toremember, and it was it was me
listening to the words.
I didn't like the sounds she wasmaking, and I usually tell her

(59:32):
that those sounds are roughright now, you're okay.
And then she was like, you know,she started communicating with
the words, and I was like, okay,kids.

SPEAKER_00 (59:39):
You connect.
I see.
Oh, look at that connectionbefore correction.

SPEAKER_02 (59:44):
Connection before correction.
That's a we're gonna run withthat one.
Yep.
You've published that one yet?
You gotta copyright that sucker.
That's got a TikTok videowritten all over it.
Are you kidding?
That's gonna go viral.

unknown (59:56):
What are we doing?

SPEAKER_02 (59:58):
No, that's fantastic.
Yeah, I you.
I think it's really important toembrace those things.
And again, I I talk about the80-20 rule, right?
Or 90 10.
I think that there's gonna be amargin of error where you get to
show your kids that I too haveemotions and I lose my cool.
But you know, if you're goingover that 20% mark, maybe you

(01:00:18):
need to reconsider and and pullback on some things.
And my teenagers have taught mea lot about that as of late.
The the pullback, the I reallywant more time with you.
You guys are moving in differentdirections.
I've raised you to beindependent, and now I'm trying
to stifle your independence andgetting mad when you tell me
you're gonna go do somethingelse.
That doesn't make any sense.

(01:00:39):
But without you know, sittingback and using that
introspection, yeah, you you youmight fail the connection.
And the connection might notmean time together all the time.
It means in that instance, inthat circumstance.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:52):
Over time, build the relationship and trust will
come.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:56):
Yeah, it's hard.
And I will end with that chucklebecause this concludes part one
of our interview with CamilaJakob.
Please do return for part twoand always analyze responsibly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:13):
ABA on tap is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.

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