ABA Impact and Business Challenges with Derreck Ogden and Josh Nelson Part II

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:11):
Welcome to ABA OnTAS, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to fruit thesmoothest, coldest, and
best-tasting ABA or out.
I'm Dan Lower with MicroBeal andjoin us on our journey as we
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tap.

(00:32):
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
fruit, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07):
So you're in this position as an ABA owner where
none of your SaaS providers arerequired or liable for your data
protection, right?
So when I'm talking to apractice management system, it's
how can I get to my data?
Because I need to make sure I'mmaking copies of that and then
additional copies of that.
So I had a conversation actuallyyesterday with a guy who is

(01:31):
dabbling.
He's brilliant.
He's an engineer, he's inaviation, his wife has an ABA
company that's well run.
It's in a different state fromwhere they live, and they've got
like 40 employees.
So that tells me that they'vebeen around for a while.
They know what they're doing for15, the last 15 years or so.
They don't even have to be inthe same state as their as their
clinic.

(01:51):
So he's actually working on whatI've been saying needs to be the
case for the last few years,which is building your own logic
and your own database into yourexisting tools like Microsoft
365.
Um, my gap and my knowledge iswhat exactly those fields are

(02:12):
and how exactly that data needsto flow to billing, how it needs
to flow to the BCBA and all thatstuff.
So I am completely out of mydepth as far as being the guy
who could design that software.
Um, but one of the strengths ofbuilding your own internal
practice management system isthat you have access to the

(02:36):
data, you have the ability toprogram your own features into
it.
Uh, and the most important thingis you have control over
redundancy and retention becausethat platform is very easily
replicatable.
You can back it up very quickly.
You can set up systems where weliterally have plans where
people are paying us$15 a monthto back up their single-user

(02:59):
Microsoft 365 system.
It's not that expensive, right?
So, and that does the backup,the email encryption, the AI
auto encryption filters thatcatch something that should have
been encrypted when you knowthey make a mistake and somebody
sends something, it says, wait,this has sensitive information,
it we're gonna go ahead andencrypt it, right?
So, you know, that's all ofthat.
So this is really inexpensive asfar as being able to do that

(03:23):
with a Microsoft 365 platformwhere some of your practice
management systems arecompletely closed off and you
can't get to that data.
Um, there's a lot of people whohave moved from one system to
another who still have the oldsystem and still pay for it
because they can't get the dataout.
Yeah, and I think it'sunethical.
That that's how I look at it.
I believe that's an unethicalpractice on a part of the

(03:44):
practice management systems.

SPEAKER_04 (03:45):
That is that is really interesting because all
of our data, I don't even thinkwe back it up.
It's just saved in thosepractice management systems and
never thought about that.
Um we're learning.
I have one more question, if youdon't mind, Mike, because I know
I've been stealing a lot of Miketime here.
Um what are some other commoncompliance issues?
So we've talked about this termcompliance.

(04:06):
Um, what are some other commonthings that you see?
So that redundancy is somethingthat I was not even aware of.
The 25 year for Pennsylvania, 19years for California, something
I was not aware of, and Icertainly should have been.
What are some other commoncompliance issues that you see
ABA practitioners or businessowners running into?

SPEAKER_05 (04:24):
Well, again, they all stem from a lack of
organizational strategy.
You don't need to sit down andwrite policies because HIPAA
requires them.
You need to sit down and writepolicies because your business's
sustainability requires them.
Now, when you're writing thosepolicies, you just want to make
sure that they're compliant withHIPAA.
But one of the biggest things wesee is just nobody has policies
written down.

(04:44):
Um, and this is another weaknessof you know, purchasing kind of
pre-baked stuff where you knowyou just kind of hope it's in
there.
Um, and you know, we ask peoplethe question all the time like,
do you have all your policiesdocumented?
Yes, yes, we've got that.
Okay, where are they?
Oh, they're in our employeehandbook.
Okay, where did that come from?

(05:04):
We got it from XYZ or my my bossat my old place, let me use
theirs.
Okay.
So now we need to dig into theactual policies that HIPAA
specifically requires, right?
And we'll talk about your stateand your county and your exact
business model, whether you'rein home or in school, all that
stuff later.
But we need to establish, youknow, have you written down how

(05:29):
passwords are required to becreated, updated, uh, reset in
your company?
Because HIPAA requires that youhave a password policy.
Uh, have you written down howyou are going to protect data in
your company?
So the stuff that's moving andthe stuff that's just sitting
there.
So it's data in motion, data atrest.
How are you protecting that?
And that's your encryptionpolicy.

(05:50):
You want to encrypt it, scrambleit up so that nobody can use it
unless you authorize them to,uh, and then make sure that when
it's sitting, it's encrypted andwhen it's moving, it's
encrypted.
And this is how important likethat one policy is.
If you have a data breach andsomebody steals all your
information out of Microsoft365, or that you lose your
laptop at the airport, right?

(06:11):
And you have everything on yourlaptop.
If you have that laptopencrypted, you don't even have
to report it.
If there's anything on there,and if you but you have to be
able to prove that you had itencrypted, you have to be able
to prove that it's beenencrypted for you know, you have
to have evidence to show that wedon't need to report this
because it is encrypted, andhere is my proof of that, right?

(06:33):
So that's really the difficultpart of the compliance strategy,
but again, it all comes fromyour organizational strategy,
and you know, we can get thecall, and this is kind of the uh
the same line of evolution fromus being in IT to really diving
into the ABA side to really justa matter of me just kind of

(06:55):
getting really irritated becauseI've seen people in my family
and my friends struggle to findcare.
And I'm like, it's 2018, why thehell is this so hard?
Um, and like kind of digginginto it, and then it just
becoming an obsession uh where Iwant to figure out what these
problems are and start solvingthem and breaking them down.
But you know, along those samelines, we would have uh one of

(07:20):
our one of our prospectiveclients or a client would call
us up and say, Hey, I need afirewall.
Okay, what kind of company areyou?
Well, we're an ABA company.
All right, do you do clinicbased or you know?
Well, we're clinic based.
Okay.
What why do you need thefirewall?
I don't know.
My brother-in-law is in IT, heworks with the Air Force or

(07:41):
something, and he said, I reallyneed to have a firewall for my
security.
Like, okay, what is the firewallsupposed to do?
Can I see your network securitypolicy?
Like, oh, I don't have one, wereally don't.
I mean, this isn't this isn't anarea that I really know anything
about.
Like, okay, that's fine.
Um, do you have your, you know,your your other policies that

(08:02):
lead up to that?
Do you have any policies, right?
And usually it's no.
And and those policies arewhat's coming out of your
organizational strategydevelopment, right?
That's where the that's thesource of those policies, not
going into HIPAA reading thelist and then creating policies
to check off boxes.
Like these are things youactually need to use in your
business.
So where most of the customersthat were coming to us, or most

(08:25):
of the prospects that werecoming to us, were asking us for
things that they weren't evenclose to being ready for.
And I feel like this is where umthe consulting field kind of
gets uh a bad rap.
Um, because when somebody hiresa consultant and says, Here,
come in and do this thing forme, if I'm the IT guy and they
say, Hey, I need a firewall, alot of IT companies will just

(08:48):
say, Oh, that's great.
Let me grab you our list offirewalls and our pricing and
let's sell you a firewall.
I'm gonna send you thepaperwork, you send me the
money, and poof, we got a magicpurple box sitting on your top,
it does nothing, right?
So it's not gonna do anythingfor you, it's not gonna help
you, but it's gonna put money inmy pocket.
So let's get rolling, right?
So that approach from alldifferent angles of consulting

(09:10):
is kind of the problem where ifyou don't have that first
principles reason for why youactually need that firewall, if
you don't have a gap that you'veidentified in your business that
that thingy, that shiny objectis actually going to fill for
you, then I'm not gonna get it.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna getit for you.

(09:30):
You can call another IT guy, youcan do whatever, but like we
need to figure out what youractual strategy is here.
And that 15-minute conversationturns into another hour-long
call where I'm meeting with theowner and saying, All right,
let's let's sit down and figureout what your mission statement
is, what your vision statementis, let's build out what your
financial viability is here.

(09:51):
Let's get those six numbers thatmatter to every ABA company and
start building out theirstrategy.
Where the firewall is like we'rea year from even having that
conversation.
And then now we're having thiscall.
So once that started to happenbetween 25 and 30 times a week,
where we're just doing thestrategy calls, that's where our
course came from.
So we're not parroting the samething over and over again.

(10:14):
But all those policies, gettingback to what you asked, you
know, I can talk about this allday, but the um the source of
your policies, the source ofyour procedures should be coming
out of your internalorganizational strategy.
First, your mission, yourvision, your primary aim, your
strategic objective, thenstructuring the business,

(10:37):
deciding how you're going tohave everything divided up, and
then identifying thoseprocesses, the first of which
being your process to developyour systems and building them.
Um, so when you get tocompliance, when you get to
network security, those types ofthose types of policies should
just flow right out of your chatGPT that you've been training
this whole time.

(10:58):
It's that simple.

SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
So you uh you're alluding to some of these
things.
Uh we can people can remainnameless to to protect the
innocent, but I'm sure you'veyou guys have pulled people out
of some really sticky situationsor some horror stories you've
seen out there.
Can you talk about some ofthose?
Just things that you've walkedinto where it's like, wow, you
guys are in trouble.
This is what we can do to help.

SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
Yeah, there were there were there were actually
two things recently thathappened.
Um, you know, Derek always hasthis thing that he says because
um there like there there'sthere's a common theme as a
business owner that you'll seeis you are responsible.
The software company say you'reresponsible.
Like as a business owner, you'reresponsible for everything.
Um and there are three peoplethat'll get you that'll cause

(11:41):
you to go broke or get youthrown in jail.
And it's your IT IT guy, yourCPA, and your uh your attorney.
Um and so recently, you know, weactually took over the IT for an
ABA company, and they wereselling him like$10,000 worth of
things that he didn't need.
And all he needed to replacethose things was his Microsoft

(12:02):
365 that he was already payingfor.
They wanted to sell him a serverand all the all these things
that he didn't need.
So we go in there and we'relike, you know, you you actually
don't need any of this.
And so he's paying us a fractionof what that that was and all of
that.
So, you know, an IT guy willwill go sell you a magic a magic
box like Derek was talkingabout, and it's not really based

(12:24):
on any policy or any actualrequirement.
The other thing that I just thisis recently happened.
Um I had a I had a a familyfriend that uh has a uh has a a
tutoring service and they wannathey want to add ABA services
into what they're doing becausethey do special education, but
it's not quite ABA, it's notexactly HIPAA, it's just like

(12:45):
they they go into the schoolsand they provide tutoring
services.
So they hire a an a BCBA um andtheir corporate attorney advised
them that as long as they're notaccepting Medicaid or private
insurance, and that it's justlike based on scholarships and
private pay or like like uh youknow out of pocket pay, um they
don't have to be HIPAAcompliant.

(13:07):
And so, like yeah, so so thereare certain things where like
you know, I I would imagine thatbeing an attorney is kind of
like being in the medical field,like it's such a broad uh you
know, uh general area, like youknow, to say I'm in the medical
field is like, well, what part?
Yeah, because you wouldn't go toa brain surgeon if you need
heart surgery, like you're gonnago to a heart surgeon.
So, like, um you know, I Ibasically told this person, I'm

(13:30):
like, you know, don't take thatadvice because like that's gonna
get you uh fined or put in jail.
Because like the reasoning forHIPAA compliance is privacy and
portability.
Like if you're accepting anykind of information um that has
to do with like a like ahealthcare or medical treatment
or therapy, uh you're you'reresponsible to protect it and

(13:51):
also make it portable so thatthat client can take that client
or patient can take thatinformation to another provider
because they have a right tothose those those um uh those
those uh records.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (14:04):
So did you do you guys want to hear my FBI story?

SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_05 (14:09):
You start with FBI, absolutely.
So uh November 2023, we have auh an ABA company that had come
to us and we had done just abasic assessment for them.
We had made somerecommendations, and you know,
budget was tight, they werehaving difficulties, they had a
pre-existing billing issue thathad driven them into a

(14:31):
relationship with a consultant.
That consultant went uh beyondtheir operational consulting and
kind of stepped over their uhstepped out of their lane and um
needed that needed somefinancing, needed some fast
cash.
So they went and got an MCA loanuh for this company.
So now they've got even morefinancial pressure.
And by the time we come in,they've got you know three

(14:53):
locations, like 60, 70employees.
It's a I mean dumpster fire.
I mean, that's that's reallylike the only term for it.
Um what's an MCA loan?
Uh okay.

SPEAKER_04 (15:06):
Oh, sorry.
Didn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_05 (15:07):
MCA loans.
I well, I'm glad you askedbecause this is like another
topic that I constantly harp on.
MCA loans are hard money loanswhere you can get all kinds of
cash in your bank accounttomorrow, and then they have the
ability to auto-deduct on aweekly basis.
It's basically the payday loanscam for businesses.
Um they'll tell you there's zeropercent interest or whatever,

(15:30):
but they're charging yououtlandish fees.
So you'll you'll borrow 100grand and you'll have to pay
back 150 grand in a year.
Uh well, always take away fromMCA loans.
Uh, you're better off putting ona credit card.
Okay.
So um, so they had gottenwrapped up in MCA loan because
this operations person hadstepped over the line and and uh
got them into an area theyshouldn't have gotten into.

(15:52):
So we're kind of learning allthis and doing the assessment
and kind of showing them likethis is what you need to be
doing.
Here's your plan of actionmilestones.
And it was all right, we'llwe'll get to this like when we
get past the money thing.
And uh they decided they weregoing to change practice
management systems.
And of course, we don't knowthis.
We do the assessment, we helpthem with a few things, and then
we're out until they get pasttheir financial struggles, and

(16:15):
then uh we're just kind of onthe back burner at that point
until the Monday beforeThanksgiving 2023.
Our help desk gets a phone calland it's from the owner of the
company, and they're in theprocess of moving, and the
practice management systems hadnothing to do with it, but just
for uh the story's sake, they'removing from Rethink to Central

(16:39):
Reach.

SPEAKER_04 (16:39):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (16:40):
So this person had a list of all of the users for
Central Reach, all the users forRethink, had them all in nice
organized spreadsheets withtheir passwords and their
usernames and all that stuff.
They had all kinds of data thatshe was going through and
downloading from Rethink so thatshe can upload it to Central
Reach.
So she had massive amounts ofdata.

(17:00):
And because she only had adesktop computer at work, she
was using her personal laptopwhile she was on her vacation or
holiday for uh Thanksgiving.
So she gets an email from herlawyer, and this is again how
your lawyer can kill yourbusiness.
She gets an email from herlawyer, and the email has her
case number for her pendingdivorce.

(17:23):
Um, or maybe the divorce isalready finalized, but it was a
motion for contempt of court uhbecause her former partner was
not paying alimony.
So it's right down to what isactually going on in her case
with this lawyer.
It has her case number on it,and it's coming from the
lawyer's inbox with a PDFattached for her review.

(17:47):
So she's trying to run this PDFand it won't open, of course,
because it's not really a PDF.
It's just a link that doesbasically what we do when we do
a penetration test, it justdownloads everything off of her
computer and uploads it to thebad guy.
The next thing was that it had aOneDrive link built into it.
So it's saying this file isbeing shared to you for your

(18:08):
review from your lawyer.
It has a OneDrive link there.
So she is the admin of herMicrosoft 365.
She has access to do whatevershe wants, which is a whole
separate issue, but she'slogging in, trying to download
this file from OneDrive now.
So she's putting in herMicrosoft password and her

(18:28):
username, right?
She can't open it, so sheforwards the email to her
business partner and says, Ican't get this file to open.
So the other business partnernow is opening it on her
personal laptop because she's onvacay, right?
Um, they get her email, they gether credentials.
So we don't really hear anythingfrom them until uh Tuesday.

(18:51):
So Tuesday or Wednesday.
So that happened like Sunday,Monday-ish.
And then we hear about it onWednesday.
And the way we hear about it ishey, we had a bunch of emails
that are going out, and wedidn't authorize them.
There's people who don'tactually work for our company,
like the names don't make anysense, but they're all coming
from our domain.

(19:11):
And uh, we get in there, andthousands of emails have gone
out and been delivered, turnedinto a pretty major situation
because we have to contain it.
Um, and then we have to bring ina team to ensure that the bad
guys are out of the system.
Um, takes a special qualifiedperson to be able to go in and
do that, depending on theplatform, depending on the
nature of the breach.

SPEAKER_04 (19:32):
Wow.

SPEAKER_05 (19:33):
Um, and then we need to get cleared, right?

SPEAKER_04 (19:37):
What do you mean you have to get cleared?

SPEAKER_05 (19:39):
We have to get cleared to reopen.
We have to have somebody withwith some expertise to tell us,
like, okay, it's safe to go backin.

SPEAKER_04 (19:46):
Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 (19:47):
Um, and you know, I'm not the guy to do that, but
we have people who do it.
If you're in Google, it's gonnabe one guy.
If you're in Microsoft, it'sgonna be a different guy, right?
So, or a different team.

SPEAKER_00 (19:56):
So to be clear, they they're like data forensics
people that can kind of trackdown like how the bad guy got
in, what information was stolen.
Um, and then there's likeanother expert that needs to go
in and basically like make sureit's all locked down again, and
then they report back to us andlike let us know, like, all
right, we we know how they gotin, we know whose information
was leaked, and it's been takencare of.

(20:17):
Wow.
Now you're safe to go back in.
So, yeah, it's it's a prettycomplex thing.

SPEAKER_04 (20:21):
Well, it sounds like because I know like out here
there have been medical hacksand things like that where
people have actually paidransoms and stuff like that.
But go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 (20:28):
That's yeah, and and and that's what I mean.
That happens a lot.
I think uh ransomware is there'sbeen nine, eight or nine
trillion dollars in ransomwarecollected over the last 15 or so
years.
So if they started their owncountry, they'd be the third
richest country on the planet.
Oh my god.
US, US, China, and thenransomware.

SPEAKER_00 (20:49):
Yeah, back in my hometown in Ohio, Kettery Health
just got got ransomware.
And and but luckily they hadbackups, so they didn't have to
pay it.
But like they were locked downout of their phone system, out
of their practice managementsystem, they were on paper,
paper data for um for like forlike two weeks.
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (21:07):
So the here scripts, uh, which actually is the
medical system I use, it's ahuge one in San Diego.
They got ransomware to the factthat they got locked out of
their own system.
So surgeries, everyone's medicalrecords, they were taking credit
card, like it was locked out,and this is a huge medical
system.
But anyway, sorry, I digress.
I was literally on the edge ofmy seat.
I had to adjust myself.
Can you please get back to youruh the story about so you got

(21:30):
cleared?

SPEAKER_05 (21:31):
Or yeah, yeah, and now now we're well no, we never
got to that point because we'vegot to we've got to bring in a
contractor who is gonna costthese people about 50 grand to
pay this other company to comein and clear us to go back in
and open it up.
And the the owner of the companywas basically like, Well,
listen, like we're$750,000 inthe hole right now from our

(21:53):
billing issue.
We're not able to make payroll,right?
We're we're we've got this MCAloan now that is at this point
about three months old.
So they've got these massiveweekly payments going out to the
MCA.
And she goes, What are myalternatives?
And I said, Well, basically, youcan do the legal thing or the
illegal thing.

(22:14):
And she said, Well, oh, and thisis what they did.
So the the this email originatedfrom their family attorney,
right?
And when the email went to her,it came from his office.
His office was hacked, right?
Oh man.
So she calls him back and says,Hey, I've got this IT guy, the

(22:37):
cybersecurity guy is telling meI gotta do this whole response
that you need to do yourresponse.
It's gonna be like 50 grand onmy end, you need to do one too,
and whatever.
You know what the lawyer said?

unknown (22:46):
Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_05 (22:47):
You don't have to do any of that stuff.
We don't have to do any of that,we don't need to do any of that.
Just just move on with yourlife, right?
And this lawyer, when they whenthey when he said this, when I
saw the email that he had sent,um, because she's showing me,
like, hey, listen, I'm I've gotyou know my lawyer here telling
me not to mess with this.
I'm like, this is a divorcelawyer, this is not a data

(23:09):
security lawyer, right?
Um, but when um, but theydecided, like, hey, listen,
we're just gonna kind of sweepit under the rug and move on.
They did send out emails toeverybody that they knew had
gotten an email saying, hey,don't click on this.
Um, and then I'd said, well,listen, we have to file reports
with the OCR, we have to file areport with IC3, like we have to

(23:31):
put these reports in place whereat least you're not like
covering it up, right?
Which that's a felony.
Failure to report a felony is afelony.
And I forget what the guy's nameis, but a former CIO of Uber um
just got five years probation acouple years ago for not
reporting the same kind of abreach at Uber, right?

(23:53):
And they kind of made an exampleout of them, but like this is
something where you're gonnahave this falling around,
following you around for therest of your life.
Um, so I said we have to file areport on OCR, uh the Office of
Civil Rights for your HIPAAstuff.
We have to file the reports alsowith the Florida Um Department
of Health, and then we need tofile the report with law
enforcement, which would be theFBI IC3 division.

(24:15):
So we're in, we work with theFBI.
Um, so we're part of InfraGuard,which is kind of a rare thing
for IT companies to be involvedin, but we're kind of the
feedback from the private sectorto kind of help them with what's
going on, like you know, bootson the boots on the ground.
So we submitted it, um, it wentthrough their channels.
And usually, if you're gonnasubmit any kind of crime, like

(24:38):
if you're in San Diego,California, if you submit
something to the FBI for like, Ijust got ripped off for$500,000,
you're gonna submit the reportonline and no agent's ever even
gonna see that, right?
There's not a law enforcementperson that's ever gonna put
their eyes on that report, mostlikely.
If you file a report that says,um, I've had three million

(25:02):
dollars stolen from me, thenit's gonna get cycled through
and somebody's gonna look at it.
That doesn't mean they're gonnacall you or investigate or do
anything like that.
Um, but there are certain redflags, like if PHI was exposed,
or if you know it's activelyexposed, or if you don't send a
you know forensic report with itsaying these are the findings,

(25:22):
or uh, you know, explain whatyou're gonna do to you know have
a proper response, then thoseare the things that start to
develop into an investigation.
Um, so we didn't hear anythingback until I get a phone call on
my cell phone.
Um, and the uh the gentlemansays, Hi, this is uh agent
Travis Jones from the FBI WestPalm Beach Field Office.

(25:44):
And I said, Oh, how are you, Mr.
Jones?
Agent Jones, nice to meet you.
And um, and I and he says, I'mat your office and I'd like to
meet with you.
I'm like, okay.
So I'm running errands, I'mbeing CEO when you know 10, 20%
of my time.
So I'm in flip-flops drivingaround in my 1985 Jeep
scrambler, like I'm not preparedfor a meeting with the FBI.

(26:07):
Um, but uh I immediately, ofcourse, like, okay, I'll meet
you at our head headquarters.
They were there waiting for me.
Um, and you know, basically whathe wants to know is who what,
when, where, and why, right?
Like you have to explaineverything to me.
So when the FBI walked into theoffice, I basically said,
Listen, I like we alwaysparticipate, we're in
InfraGuard, we work with the FBIall the time.

(26:30):
But this client contracted us todo work for them.
We have a non-disclosureagreement.
I can't tell you anythingwithout their consent, right?
So he said, No problem, waithere.
Don't leave.
And then he went over to theirfacility, had them sign a
consent form, uh, basicallygiving me permission to do it,

(26:51):
and then came back.
And we, you know, went throughall the stuff, you know,
download all the reports fromyou know what we had, uh, which
was limited because we're not,you know, in the DFIR business,
but we did have, you know, someinformation that we had found
and screenshots that we hadtaken, and you know, the the
statements that we had made, wehad evidence for that, right?

(27:11):
And um the way it all turned outis I don't know.
It's still an ongoing thing.
Um, the victim pool from thedown, the downstream victim
pool, they call it.
So from all the people that gotemails that that they had sent
out uh after they got hacked,that's all still kind of active.
Um, since then, now that I havea now that I have a an agent

(27:34):
that I can talk to all the timein combination with our
Infragard thing.
I talk to Agent Jones all thetime about stuff, but it's you
know, I can't really askanything about the case or the
investigation.
But you know, this is a businessthat's already in trouble.
This is a business that'salready going down a road where
you know one bad decision leadsto another.
Um, I know that they havereduced from three locations
down to one.

(27:54):
It's in turmoil.
I mean, it's just it's just abad situation, but it all comes
back to organizational strategy.
Yeah, they would not have beenreliant on that consultant to
fix those problems in the firstplace.
They would have understood thattheir billing was in trouble
before it got to be a$750,000problem, right?

(28:15):
They would have caught it whenit was a$50,000 problem.
Like it's knowing these things,and every single one of their
issues came from the fact thatit was that they just didn't
have any organizationalstrategy.
That's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
Wow.
Wow.
What a mess.
That that's uh that's anightmare.
That's a nightmare.

SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
Yeah, and there's likely jail time involved with a
situation like that.

SPEAKER_04 (28:37):
Um it you bring up billing, which is interesting
because um I have a lot of, Ifeel like it's uh six degrees of
Kevin Spacey out out here inCalifornia, because I've trained
so many people, I've I'm prettyintegrated, at least into the
Southern California ABA realm.
So when we decided it was timeto open up our company, um, I
had a lot of people that I couldreach out to and a lot of good

(28:58):
relationships and a lot ofpeople who shared really uh
useful things that were verybeneficial in opening up a
company.
And and the billing one wasinteresting because there were
more than one uh there was morethan one person who started
their own company that was like,yeah, I started and I provided
services and I was billing and Ididn't get paid for like six

(29:18):
months because I didn't realizeI was doing it wrong.
And then like, you know, asunfortunately, knock on wood.
Um, we haven't run into thatissue, but you just keep
bringing that up about 750k ofbag billing for that one
situation, and that seems to besomething that's very prevalent.

SPEAKER_05 (29:35):
Yeah, and it's something uh our our outreach
team talks to several hundredcompanies every week, and out of
those companies, you know, theones that have started within a
year, well, the the ones thathave given up within their first
year of business is somewherearound 40 or 50 of them.
So you you talk to a fewhundred, and there's a few dozen

(29:56):
in there that are um that arejust giving up, and and the
biggest.
Thing is the number one reasonis cash flow.
It's a dead stop, you can't getpast it, you're not prepared for
it, and the only cure is a timemachine, right?
Sure.
Um, so like you're in thatposition for reasons that you
can't change once you're in theposition.

(30:17):
So um that's kind of a majorthing.
And then the other one is justgeneral burnout.
I had that conversation onEaster Sunday.
I'm, you know, we often get youknow direct messages on
Facebook, and I'm terrible atkeeping up with them.
So if you need to get a hold ofme, send me an email.
Don't message me on Facebook.
But this one day I was actuallypaying attention and um got the
alert.

(30:38):
And the the question was, I Ihave a ABA company, I want to
sell it.
I said, Okay, just tell me alittle bit about your company.
She starts getting into thefinancial stuff, and um uh I
can't remember how manyemployees she had, but she was
doing a little over four milliondollars a year in revenue, and
uh she was running a 34% margin.

(31:03):
Impressive and and I asked herlike three times.
I'm like, is that your netprofit?
Yes, thirty, thirty-four,thirty, thirty-three point
something, basicallythirty-four.

SPEAKER_06 (31:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (31:14):
I'm like, okay, um tell me why you want to sell.
Well, I I hate my life.
This is a disaster.
This business is takingeverything over.
I'm getting some certificationand the uh the organizational
behavior, um, or the behavior,LBM, yeah, the organizational
stuff, right?
She's like, I'm getting thiscertification that getting out

(31:34):
of this.
And then you know, she'sstarting to describe the the
reasons that are the the herbusiness is you know driving her
into the grave.
And um, and I said, Well, theseare all things that you're gonna
have to fix before you sell thebusiness, right?
Like you might have EBITA that'sthere and you have a good profit
margin, but if somebody has tosell their soul to own the

(31:55):
business, like this is notsomething that's gonna be uh
very appealing to uh a you knowa small business owner.
Yeah, and she said, All right,well, what am I gonna need to
get done?
Like, what do I need to do?
And I said, Well, basically justpretend that you're starting up
a new business.
Start from the beginning, buildit from scratch, and then start

(32:15):
transitioning your businessmodel into that new business
model that you've built based onwhat your actual goals are and
everything.
And then her next question wasHave you ever heard of somebody
just giving their company tosomeone else?
Oh, wow, where he doesn't wantto even sell it at this point,
like she wants out so badly,like her life has been like

(32:36):
she's she's been so abused byher own company that that she
just wants out and she doesn'tcare how I think that happened
with our last company, actually,but go ahead.
Yeah, and and then and this ismore common than people think,
and I think it just has to dowith a lot of the misconceptions
and the the the misguidedreasoning for getting into the

(32:56):
business.
Um, I think I was able to stopthat from happening in one
example where we were on a callwith a nice lady in uh up in the
northeast United States, andshe's a BCBA, and she said, I
want to start my own company.
I just want to talk to you guysbefore I do this.
I want to do the free foundationcourse and kind of start getting
my ducks in a row.
And I said, Okay, my firstquestion is always, why do you

(33:18):
want to start your own ABAcompany?
And uh she said, Well, when I'mbilling out for what whichever
the CPT code was that she hadmentioned, she's like, I know
that that's the code that I billthe most most of.
And when I bill it, I'm gettingpaid about$50 to$52 an hour for

(33:38):
my time.
And she goes, but I also happento know that the company is
getting paid$90 to$95 for thatsame unit.
And she goes, So I figured I'lljust start my own company and
then I'll be able to keep the$95instead of the$52.
And I said, That is great logic,like it makes sense on the

(34:00):
surface, right?
Like you just broke it down, butwe need to go a few layers
deeper.
We need to get down to firstprinciples, right?
So, and and we in about 10minutes figured out that she was
gonna end up keeping about$35 ofthat 95 after all of her
overhead running it on our own.
And I said, listen, you want tomake$150,000 a year.

(34:21):
That's great.
This is how you do it, right?
Then we we're just kind ofrunning through a couple
simulations.
You're gonna need, you know,between 18 and 21 RVTs out on
the road, you're gonna have tohave this many billable hours
every month.
You want to keep it below thismany so that you're not, you
know, burning out youremployees.
This is how much backup staffyou're gonna need to support
that frontline.

(34:41):
And she said, There is no way inhell I'm gonna start a business
and run a company with 25people.
I don't want to do that.
Like, I'm not ready for that.
I don't want to do that.
I have no desire for it.
And I said, Yes, ma'am, thankyou.
Have a nice day.
That's it.
Like, that's all you needed toknow.
Like, we just stopped that phonecall five years from now where
they're just saying, I just wantout.
Like, this is awful.

(35:02):
Like, my life is out, right?
Um, but you know, I also I alsotold her, I'm like, give it a
few years, you know, you mightthink differently about it,
right?
And take it slow.
And you know, business ownershipis not for everybody, but uh,
even if it is for you, you stillhave to do it right, or it will
become uh it will become anightmare.

SPEAKER_04 (35:23):
Yeah, yeah, I I agree.
And I think that's the the coolthing with with us and our
company is that we are all veryaligned clinically, and that's
the the biggest thing that umyou know brought us together is
we were just really dissatisfiedwith the way that ABA was being
practiced.
That's honestly why we startedthe podcast is because there's
that huge anti-ABA movement, andwe just wanted to delve into is

(35:46):
it the field, is it the way thatit's practiced, or is it people
that are misunderstanding?
And then years of doing thispodcast, we were like, wow,
we're kind of the places thatwe're working are the people
that we're complaining about onthe podcast.
And we've been uh, you know,multiple, and we actually
honestly, you you mentioned the34% margin.

(36:06):
For many years, we workedtogether um at a company that
might have had the best rate.
I would the bet we had acapitated contract that probably
had the best rates in thecountry.
Um and we were able to offerguaranteed hours to all of our
staff, and it was and andcapitated was because it was a
psychiatric company.
Um, we basically got paid on thefront end.

(36:27):
It wasn't a fee-for-servicemodel.
And it was just amazing, but wedid it ethically and we kept our
hours low.
Um and we just had this reallyidyllic situation, and then from
there, our parent company reallymessed that up.
You talk about billing and anddata, it's it's very uh very
interesting.
They messed that up.
We got sold to another companythat sold to another company
that basically just gave us awayfor free.

(36:50):
Um and we just got thisindoctrination into the real ABA
world and kind of what it'slike.
And we were like, well, we justI think we need to start our own
company if we want it to be likewe want it to be, because values
aren't don't seem to be alignedwith any of the corporate ABA
structures that we're workingfor and we're hearing about in

(37:10):
the actual like direct servicedelivery field.
I don't know if that was evenreally relevant to anything, but
you made me think about it whenyou were talking about the
values and not just doing it forthe money.

SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
So we so we we've we've done um nearly 1,500
orientations through the uhthrough the Facebook group where
we've basically like with ABAowners or business leaders or
people who are thinking aboutstarting their ABA business, we
get on a call with them, justkind of ask them like what are
what challenges are you facing?
Um and uh one of the commonthings that I hear about like
why they want to start theirbusiness is exactly what you

(37:43):
said.
Like they want to do ABA theirway, um, because wherever they
were working, uh they they theydidn't agree with it.
Um so that that it's so what yousaid is really common.
And then the billing thing islike a really common challenge
that we hear too.
So it's it's like it's like youknow, the the the way that ABA
is done, uh billing and uh andstaffing and recruiting is like

(38:04):
the the kind of and marketinglike are kind of like the top
things that I hear uh when whenI'm asking, like, hey, what are
you struggling with?
And then they they that's howthat's how we've gathered this
information.

SPEAKER_04 (38:14):
Yeah, that's um I want to come back to something
you actually said um earlier.
You said the the six metrics I Imight but trade her a little
bit.
Uh you said it kind of inpassing very quickly.
Um, but you said the six metricsof ABA fiscal success or
something like that, Derek.

SPEAKER_05 (38:31):
Oh yeah, so uh so we don't we don't get that deep.
Don't expect me to get uh getinto your uh your your hype your
financial analysis here, but butwhat are those so when we're
talking about um there's a partof the foundation course that's
called the financial hypothesis,right?
Okay, so this is your educatedguess.

(38:52):
This is where and this is whereit's free.
We want people to get in and dothis course when they're
thinking about starting acompany because it stops things
like they're getting 95, I'mgetting 55, I want the whole 95.
It cuts that logic out becausewe go through a little bit of
the financial logic.
So six numbers.
One comes, I'm gonna try toremember all these off the top
of my head.

(39:12):
One comes from your primary aim.
So we develop your mission, yourvision, your primary aim.
Your primary aim is all aboutyou, the business owner.
And if you have partners,everybody needs to write their
own primary aim and then cometogether so everybody knows the
others.
That way we know what all theinputs and outputs are on each
partner's part, right?

(39:33):
One partner might say, I want toinvest a half a million dollars
and not work.
The other partners need to knowthat.
And they also need to know thatthey expect a 10% return in two
years.
Like this is importantinformation to talk about,
right?
So this is the primary aim part.
So your personal income on anannual basis is part of your
primary aim.
So that's the first number inthe financial hypothesis.

(39:55):
Um, I'll see if I remember therest of them.
Your lowest payer for 97153,whatever your worst case
scenario is, there, your highestcost hourly for your uh
frontline employees.
So whatever you're gonna have topay a frontline RBT at the most,
plus 25%, right?

(40:16):
Um, and the difference betweenthose two numbers is what we use
to kind of calculate how manyhours you're gonna need to build
for.
Because we want worst casescenario.
We don't want, you know, it likerather than spending uh two
weeks pulling together all thenumbers and figuring out
averages and doing all thesecomplex calculations, let's grab
this in 45 minutes, run itthrough a quick calculator

(40:36):
process in our chat GPT enginethat we're building, and let it
spit the numbers back outthrough to you and run through
some you know hypotheticalscenarios.
So our average our so what wewant to make, how much we're
gonna get paid, how much we'regonna have to pay out to get
paid that at the most, um, howmuch our frontline employees are

(40:57):
gonna cost us on a monthly basiswith their fixed cost, uh, and
then a few others, right?
So this is basically justpicking out these, you know,
five, six different numbers thatyou're gonna need to figure out
how many employees am I gonnahave to have on the road?
Uh, what is my life gonna looklike?
How am I gonna have to supportthat?
Because you know, when thatfoundation course wraps up, you

(41:19):
kind of have an idea of how bigyour company is going to need to
be for you to get out of it whatyou want out of it.
And you're gonna have these kindof foundational statements made.
That's why we call itfoundation, right?
So you're gonna have all ofthat, and then the next step is
to get into the structurecourse, right?
So actually structuring thebusiness how it needs to be to

(41:40):
achieve the strategic objectivethat you're aiming at from the
previous course.
So you mentioned before, likeyou couldn't really find a
corporate structure that matchedwith your values, and I've heard
that exact statement umpteentimes, right?
So, and that's valid.
But the question is, does itmatch with your structure now?

(42:01):
And usually people say, Yeah,you know, pretty close, like,
okay, can you tell me what yourstructure is?
And then everything falls apartbecause the structure's in their
mind, they kind of have thisidea of you know how things kind
of should flow, but really allof the know-how in the business,
all the logic is in a few oneperson's head, or best case

(42:23):
scenario, a few people's heads,those rock star employees that
you have out there, and that'sthe problem.
Like, show me on paper how yourstructure aligns with your
values.
You've shown me what your valuesare, now show me your structure.
And really, it's simple.
If anybody's watching this,these are exercises that you can
do on your own.

(42:43):
You know, you can you can takeany of the big private equity
companies or any company on theFortune 500, right?
Just pick you know, GeneralElectric or DuPont, any of these
companies, and you look at theirorg chart.
All of the roles that are inyour business exist for one

(43:03):
purpose and one purpose alone.
The only first principlesjustification for a role to
exist is to be accountable forand have ownership of.
Earlier I was saying ownershipisn't all about stock, you know,
a stock in the company.
Having ownership of a process,meaning you're you have a
medical billing process andthere's SOPs and checklists and

(43:27):
KPIs that are built into thatprocess once it's properly
documented.
Well, now somebody needs to beresponsible for it.
And it's a role, it's not aperson, it's just a role.
And that role is your medicalbilling specialist, right?
That only reason your medicalbilling specialist exists or
needs to exist in yourorganization is because the

(43:47):
medical billing process exists,right?
So that's where your roles comefrom.
Also, the that second row ofyour org chart, the vice
president of this or thedirector of that, or chief chief
whatever officer, right?
Those are your functional areas.
So what are the functional areasof your business that you need
to cover?
And that's where you start instructure, right?

(44:08):
Building out, you know, wefinance, marketing, uh, clinical
operations, clinical model andoutcome, right?
Dividing the business up intothat.
And that's what we do instructure, and then we break
those up into processes.
And then in systems, each ofthose processes starts to get
developed out, uh, and you havethis kind of constant
evolutionary loop whereeverything is always getting

(44:29):
updated.
And I think that goes back towhat you were asking about with,
you know, like kind of what doesthat mean?
Like, how do you do it?
Um, or you know, what are thespecific examples?
You know, if you've alreadydecided how you're going to
handle something on a Saturdaymorning, six months before you

(44:50):
started running your company,uh, and your bathrobe and your
slippers, and you're just onyour laptop at your kitchen
table drinking a cup of coffee.
There's nothing crazy going onin your life, you're not
distracted, you're notemotional, you're just putting
down this is the way thingsshould be.
You've already decided howyou're going to do things in
that state.

(45:11):
That's the best state to makethose decisions in.
So go through your functionalareas, structure the business,
decide how you're going to dothings in that state of mind.
Because once the bad thing orthe problem already happens,
once that impact is alreadycoming through from that risk,
it's too late to do a good job,right?
You can do an okay job, you cansurvive it, but it's too late to

(45:34):
handle the problem because it'salready here.
Um, so that bad Apple employeethat's spreading rumors or
gossiping or just, you know,polluting your company culture,
or that rock star employee who'sabout to leave.
Yeah, when they walk out thedoor, you should have already on
a Saturday morning, years ago,established how that whole

(45:54):
process is going to work.
And you know what?
Your next step when that happensis to give the person a hug,
congratulate them, and say, Allright, what is the last day of
work?
That's your last day of work.
We need to make sure thateverybody knows we're all
meeting at Chili's or whereverfor your going away party.
Like that's how things shouldwork when your rock star
employee leaves.
And it happens.

(46:15):
We had uh a kind of a uh majordiscussion a couple of weeks ago
in the Odyssey was somebody madethe statement that um happy
employees don't leave.
When in fact they do.
And I actually have an exampleof that in the foundation course
where we changed the name of theperson, but it's kind of about

(46:36):
uh it's about a scenario that Ihelped someone deal with where
Michael owns an ABA company,Judy is his clinical director,
and she's just she's awesome,right?
And she handles a lot of stuff,but all the systems are in her
head, and they were family, um,still are, and she worked for
him for almost 15 years.

(46:58):
And the problem happened thatJudy is a single mom.
Uh, her son graduates from highschool, and they're in Texas
working for Michael at his ABAcompany, and she's just a rock
star employee, right?
And never had a reason to leave,never had an argument.
Thanksgiving's Christmasestogether.
I mean, they were tight.
Uh, but when Judy's son getsaccepted to the Air Force

(47:20):
Academy in Colorado Springs,she's gone.
She's gone.
And, you know, 60% of Michael'ssystems for his business walk
right out the door with her,even giving a month notice, even
having the little go-away party,and everything's gonna be fine.
And things continue to operate,like nothing fell apart, nobody

(47:44):
really got hurt except forMichael, because now he's in,
you know, he he he's now goingfrom a you know, 50, 60 hour
work week to like he's not goinghome on the on the weekend,
right?
Like he's he's gonna be thereall weekend catching up, and
he's gonna take some hits in hispocketbook on the billing side
because she was overseeing that.
Um, and that is the structureloop, those recurring problems

(48:08):
that keep coming up.
Every time something happens,the impact is high.
The likelihood of those happenhappenings remain high.
The business isn't making anyprogress forward.
You feel like you're justsurviving this circumstance and
you're getting through it again.
And I believe it's a it's amisconception to say, you know,
this is business ownership.

(48:30):
This is how it is.
Like, just deal with it becauseit sucks about 95% of the time,
right?
Like you're it's tough, right?
Yeah, you've got all theseresponsibilities now.
It's like being an adult on a10x level, right?
Like it's because you're becauseyou're adulting for a bunch of
other adults, also, right?

(48:50):
Um, and and it's hard, but itdoes not have to be a dumpster
fire, it doesn't have to takeover your entire life.
It's supposed to be difficult,it's supposed to be a struggle.
That's why so many people don'tdo it.
Um, but you can build it in away that it's manageable, that
you will still like your life,that people will still like you.
You can do an excellent job atclinical care at scale, uh, and

(49:15):
you can be consistent at scale.
Yeah, I truly believe I've seenit happen.

SPEAKER_01 (49:21):
And and uh from the very beginning, you were
absolutely right.
None of this was covered in myuh BCBA program, my
certification program.
Not one bit.
Have you guys been approached byany programs?
Have you been able to lend thisinformation kind of in a general
uh workshop to uh folks that areabout to take their test?
I I think that there's it'sinteresting in our field.

(49:43):
You can have 20 years ofexperience and sort of hit this
cap as a BCBA, and then you havesomebody that just passed their
test and comes in, you know,five grand under you.
And I think it's frustrating forpeople and they don't understand
a lot of these things that arefeeding into that uh, you know,
in into those scales.
Uh have you guys been approachedby anybody to add this to

(50:03):
anybody's coursework or have youoffered it to people that are
that are going throughcandidacy?

SPEAKER_05 (50:09):
Yeah, and just anybody who's listening to this
podcast, if there's somethingthat you think we could
contribute to, something thatyou think you can you could
contribute to our community, uhwe'll work with anybody.
It's it's whatever it takes tomove the needle in the industry
toward clinical ownership-ledindustry.
Like that's what we're goingfor.
And you know, our goal is tohave a thousand people in the

(50:31):
Odyssey within three years.
Uh, we we don't want it to be amonster group.
Uh, we already have one ofthose.
But the Odyssey, what we'retrying to get is the top three
to five spots on the top 10 mosthighly rated.
And I don't know exactly howwe're gonna measure this, but
with the top 10 best ABAcompanies in the country, we

(50:52):
want to have three of those fiveyears from now.
Well, we want three of thosespots to be our Odyssey members.
Like that's my goal.
And I don't really care how weget there.
So if people, you know, anybodywho has, you know, some kind of
contribution or an idea orsomething they want to work on,
I'll give you an example ofthis.
We've been working on slowlybecause it's not one of our top

(51:14):
priorities, but we wanted tobuild a tool where people can
find the therapists in theirarea and identify what kind of
insurance they take, what kindof uh services they provide.
And a lot of people have talkedabout this.
And what we've done to grow ourgroup and and to really build
our outreach and build ourprograms so that number one,

(51:37):
people know who we are, andnumber two, they know what we
do.
Like from there, everything elsekind of falls into place.
We've built like kind of a crazyAI system.
Like we have a couple of serversin the cloud, we have a
full-time person who just doesnothing but all of our data
management aggregation.
It's all AI-based and Pythonscripts and databases, and it's
pretty wild, right?

(51:58):
Starts with the MPI, but thenenriches it far beyond what
information is in the MPIdatabase.
But um we I met with a personwho is farther down the road of
developing a tool to do what wewere working on.
And we were kind of doing it outof the out of the the rationale

(52:20):
was there's a gap here, and wehave the data, like we know
where where to find thesepeople, like we have the
information on where they are.
So, how can we make thatavailable to the parents that
are looking for them orguardians that are looking for
them?
So that's kind of the approachthat we had come from.
Uh, but we're not BCBAs.
We don't really know when wetalk to somebody when they say,
Oh, we've got great clinicalquality, like we don't really

(52:41):
know that, right?
Like we're not in a place toreally vet someone.
We're not really in a place tovet someone as to whether they
know uh the the billing side ofit really well.
So our vetting process is, youknow, we'll do a live stream, we
put them in front of 10,000 someodd people, and they can vet
them and tell us if they suck,right?
So um, you know, that's kind ofour process with this, but it's

(53:02):
more difficult to do that whenwe're talking about, you know,
uh verifying or validating acertain provider for a guardian
to feel more comfortable withthem.
So this person we talked to hasall that figured out.
They have the the front end ofit figured out.
And I said, Well, here, let meshow you our site.
And she pulled it up and shewent, Oh no, you guys are doing

(53:25):
the same thing I'm doing.
Like we're we're competitors.
And I said, Well, maybe we wouldhave been, but not anymore.
I said, Because I can tell youright now, I'm the CEO, I can
decide what we're gonna do andwhat we're not gonna do.
So we're gonna stop this becauseyou're doing a better job in an
area we can't really succeed in.
Uh, we'll give you the data.
Like, we'll we'll give you theback end, like we'll figure
something out.

(53:46):
We don't know exactly how we'regonna do it, but I don't want
your money, I don't want any ofthat.
We'll just set you up and makesure that you have all the
information that you need toconnect the right people, right?
And she was kind of again, a lotof people are skeptical of us
when they first start talking tous because we tell them we'll
get on the phone with you, we'llhelp you do this for free.
Like, why?
Like, well, we'll show you.

(54:06):
We'll show you why.
You get on the call, we'll do itfor you for free.
We'll help you through thisproblem, we'll talk to you about
it.
And you know, she was kind of inthat skeptical place too, but
you know, we'll get past that.
But I just want to make it clearthat if somebody has something
that they're working on and yourprocess maybe works better for a
different learning style thanours does.

(54:27):
We have coaches that have theirown coaching programs that are
doing very similar material toours, they're teaching on our
platform, we're teaching ontheir platform because it's it's
different approaches, right?
Everybody has their own specialway of doing things.
And if something, if we're thebest fit, great.
If another coaching program oranother course is the best fit,

(54:49):
great.
And we don't charge money forthat crap.
Like if you want to come on andteach a course, just teach the
course, right?
So we don't charge for going outand teaching elsewhere or doing
podcasts or any of that stuff.
We just want to help in the bestway we can.

SPEAKER_04 (55:03):
I love that.
What's that?
It's a rising tide raises allboats, right?
Like that's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (55:09):
Well, we really uh like like we mentioned at the
start, it was easy for us totalk for two hours.
It is it is uh you know breezedby.
We truly appreciate uh yourethic, gentlemen, uh and your
interest in helping uh BCBAs andhelping people in the ABA
industry.
We agree the uh the services areso necessary to hear about six

(55:31):
to eight month waiting lists, tohear about all the pitfalls that
uh people are facing, uhsomebody like myself that just
wants to do the clinicalpractice, but there's so much
behind it that needs to be inorder for me to do my best.
That's where I appreciate mypartner here and all our
business partners.
And again, everything you'respeaking about is so important.
Uh we're so glad that you'redisseminating the information in

(55:52):
the community and that you'vetaken an interest in in uh ABA
so that uh you can help theseclinicians that sometimes come
in it with little to no businessacumen.
And again, there's a goodintent, but without a strong
business model or a strongfoundation, as you've discussed,
uh it can make it veryimpossible, it can make it very
cumbersome and and challenging.
So uh anything else, you guys,uh please, if you want to uh

(56:14):
plug websites or anything elsethat you want to tell people
about where to find you uh incase they could use your help if
you could provide thatinformation.

SPEAKER_05 (56:22):
Absolutely.
And and you know, again, thereason that we're here, the
reason we're the reason we doour live streams is streams is
because people show up to them.
The reason we do our Odysseycalls is because people show up
and we hammer out problems fortwo hours, right?
Like and the reason we do thesecourses is because we put one up
and 300 people jump in and dothe course and it helps them.
So, like as long as we can be ofassistance and we're doing

(56:44):
something that's actually beingyou know uh helpful, um, you
guys are doing what weappreciate is getting done,
right?
Actually being there to supportour uh our community and make
our world a better place.
So we're just not good at thatside of things.
So we just want to support youguys and make sure that you have
what you need to get out thereand get that side of it done.

(57:05):
Uh anything you need, uh you canlearn all about our program at
abaimpact.com.
Uh if you have any questions orum but want to you know book a
call and talk to us.
We're busy, but we haveavailability on our schedule.
So we can get you a booking linkand you can pick out a time that
works for you.
Just drop an email to info atabaimpact.com.

(57:27):
Uh, if you want to learn aboutour IT services and our
compliance stuff, that's on uh WO M P C A V dot com.
Um, so that's our IT company.
But you know, really the biggestthing is making sure that your
business is going to besuccessful.
You're covered in all theseareas, not just your compliance,
not just your your technology.
But you know there's a lot ofshortcuts you can take by

(57:50):
getting with our team and nothaving to experiment with your
business and figure out whatworks because we've talked to
thousands of you guys.
We've we've heard the same fewdozen problems hundreds of
times, and we know kind of thethe easy way to get there.
So it's not that you know we'rewe're extremely intelligent,
it's just that we have a hugesample size that we've closely

(58:10):
inspected.
So anything we can do to helpyou and your your ABA therapy
business move forward, we'rewe're down for the ride.
Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 (58:17):
We appreciate your time uh today, gentlemen.
Uh Mr.
Josh Nelson and Mr.
Derek Ogden.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for takingtwo hours to speak to us.
We hope that our listeners uhtake advantage of the resources
that you offer.
I'd like to give a quick any anyother closing words, Josh?
Anything else you want to addbefore we uh end today?
No, thanks for having us.

(58:37):
Well, thank you.
Thank you again, Mr.
Dan.
No, now I forever hold yourpeace.

SPEAKER_04 (58:41):
I really appreciate the time.
Thank you, gentlemen, so much.
I have a strong feeling thatwe'll probably be reaching out
to you all on outside of the ABAon tap side, just for the
company side.
That wasn't my expectation.
But um, I think we I learned somuch and my brain is spinning
right now, um, just thinkingabout things, and then I think
that we can help um you knowdisseminate your message because

(59:04):
we are certainly on the same lotwavelengths, but also I think we
can learn from you both uh as weventure into the the ABA world
company ownership as well.

SPEAKER_01 (59:13):
So thank you so much.
I really, really, reallyappreciate it.
I'd like to do a quick synopsishere before our tagline and
we'll take a a few gems that youguys lent us.
So if it's a problem, there's asolution.
So find it, apply firstprinciples, and always analyze
responsibly.
Cheers, gentlemen.
Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_02 (59:32):
ABA on facts is recorded live and unfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.

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