GOOD JOB! Dr. Becky and Salient Reinforcement Effort

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:11):
Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find
the best recipe to brew thesmoothest, coldest, and best
tasting ABA around.
I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio,and join us on our journey as we
look back into the ingredientsto form the best concoction of
ABA on tap.

(00:32):
In this podcast, we will talkabout the history of the ABA
brew, how much to consume toachieve the optimum buzz while
not getting too drunk, and therecommended pairings to bring to
the table.
So without further ado, sitback, relax, and always analyze
responsibly.

SPEAKER_00 (00:56):
All right, all right, man.
Mr.
Dan, welcome back to yet anotherinstallment of ABA on Tap.
This is episode two, season six,my friend.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07):
Man, looking forward.
This is going to be our biggestseason yet.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11):
We've got so many things brewing for you guys out
there that are listening.
We appreciate your loyaltythrough five seasons.
We are seeing the feedback,getting the feedback.
It's exciting.
It's exciting.
So we thank you out there forlistening, for continuing to
listen, for all the feedbackyou're sending, all the show
ideas.

(01:31):
The questions, please keep itcoming.
Again, we've got some reallygood stuff prepared for the rest
of Season 6.
A little shout-out to our newpartner, perhaps?
Absolutely.
Suzanne Jeswick.
Thank you.
Innovationmoon.com if you wantto check out what she does
outside of ABA on Tap.
We are one of many projects thatshe is hoping to improve.

(01:54):
Yeah, thanks.
Already having a nice showmeeting, which you and I do
informally, but she's changingthe whole game for us.
So again, What that means is youguys are gonna get a bunch of
exciting guests, a bunch ofexciting show topics.
She's really gonna clean up ouract and make sure that we're
giving you our best ABA on tap.

SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
Yeah, on the back end.
It's not gonna water it down atall.
We're still very excited.
Speaking of feedback...
Just a shout-out to you, and Ibelieve his name is Anuj from
Feedspot.
Oh, Feedspot.
But you're talking to the numberthree ranked ABA podcast right
now, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Yes, yes, you are listening to, indeed.
We are talking into themicrophones, and you out there
are listening to the numberthree in the top 15 ABA podcast
to check out in 2025.
per the Feedspot website.
We are very grateful to havegotten that news.

(02:54):
We look forward to collaboratingwith Feedspot, whatever that
means in the future.
Suzanne will help us out withthat.
But yeah, but thank you.
Now, we have to take a minute.
We would be remiss if we didn'ttalk about number one and number
two, right?

SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Well, that's by the end of this year with Suzanne,
we got to be at least number oneor number two.
We have done zero marketing overfive years.
We got to beat the behaviorbitches.
And I say that literally becausethat's number two, is the
behavior bitches.
That is not a derogatory term.

SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Now, am I going to have to click that little box
now as we publish this episodewhere it says explicit?
This episode is now explicit.
I was just trying

SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
to promote another podcast,

SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
Mike.
Oh, oh, the behavior bitches.
Yes.
Oh, good.
If Pop Pop is out therelistening, we apologize to Pop
Pop and his mom.
That's really the name of thepodcast.
Really cool, just as an asideabout that particular podcast,
they're not specific to ABAtreatment for autism.

(03:57):
I think they expand their reacha lot more in terms of
applications of appliedbehavior.
So that's exciting.
And if they happen to belistening, number one.
Number two?
Let's do some show swapping.
Let's be on each other's shows.
What do you guys say?
It's time to network.
Time to cast a wide net, man.

(04:18):
This is exciting.
Absolutely.
Speaking of a wide net, what wehave today is a little article
review.
It's an article written by Dr.
Becky Kennedy.
Pretty popular childpsychologist out in the world.
She's been on the Huberman Labpodcast.
Maybe she will make a stop onABA on tap in some future.

(04:40):
Yeah.
So Dr.
Becky Kennedy has been puttingout a lot of cool parenting
advice.
I don't.
I think you've got the title ofher book there.
I don't remember the title ofher book right offhand.
I'm sure we'll come across it ina minute.
Admittedly, I don't know herbook.
I heard her on Huberman Lab.
I've read a few articles.
You got the title?

SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
Yep.
So Dr.
Becky is a child psychologist,the best-selling author of Good
Inside, a practical guide toresilient parenting,
prioritizing connection overcorrection.

SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
Connection over correction.
Man, that is a mantra rightthere.
We could probably expand on thatfor, I don't know, a good hour.
Absolutely.
It's what we'll be doing todayand kind of exploring, I guess.
Well, let's jump right into it.
What is the title of thearticle?
And this has gone, I guess yousay viral these days.

(05:31):
This has gone into nationalpublication.
I've seen this article pop upon, I think the New York Post
picked it up.
I forget what.
website we're looking at it on.
Upworthy.com.
Upworthy.com.
I know that Good ParentingMagazine.
So this got picked upnationally.
I've seen it on differentfronts.
I wonder if the title haschanged because what's the title
that you're reading out there?

SPEAKER_01 (05:52):
Ivy League Expert Shares Why Parents Should Stop

SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
Saying Good

SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
Job and Do This Instead.

SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Okay.
So right there, I'm just goingto say that I think that title
is a complete hook.
And the article doesn't actuallysay what the title implies,
although I do think Dr.
Kennedy is a Harvard grad.
You know, hey, not everybody canget into Stanford.
You know what

SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
I'm saying?
Anyway.
UCSD, I got that public schooleducation.

SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Hey, it's a UC.
I guess it's public, but it'sstill a UC.
It's not just...
public.
It's like San Diego State orsomething.
Anyway.
Shout out to the Ferb.
Hey, shout out to everybody.
Shout out to all the schools.
Listen, this is the way I liketo say it, right?
Come on, we're all reading thesame textbooks, right?
How different can it be?
We're

SPEAKER_01 (06:35):
all punching in the same AI.

SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
We're all punching in the same AI.
We're all reading the sametextbooks.
It just so happens that myprofessors wrote the textbooks
and developed the...
Oh, all right.
I'll get off my high horse.
All right, we got to get back toit.

SPEAKER_01 (06:47):
Because that thing around Mahandran was UCSD.
But we'll go

SPEAKER_00 (06:50):
back to the article.
I'm wearing the Stanford shirttoday, too, my T-shirt here.
So I'm completely enveloped andself-engrossed in my own
self-absorption.
Anyway, Dr.
Becky, I don't think the titleof the article actually says
that, but it's a good hook,right?
Yes.
And that's what we're going tospend time talking about.
And in a more general way, whatwe're talking about here is

(07:11):
reinforcing consequences, right?
The idea of...
Ensuring that what you're doingis a consequence after a desired
behavior or a behavior ofinterest in terms of trying to
promote that class of behaviorongoing, right?
Dr.
Becky makes some interestingpoints that we'll get into that
maybe are outside of our scopebehaviorally.
So when talking about buildingself-confidence and self-esteem,

(07:34):
and again, we won't dismissthose things as much as try to
give it a behavioral feel.
Absolutely.
So Dan, why don't you kick usoff here?
You do a really good job for uskind of reading parts of the
article when we do this, andthen we get to discuss and
digress and go on our tangentsbefore we bring ourselves back.
So why don't you give us alittle snippet to chew on here?

SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Absolutely.
And again, I'm super excited tostart the year off with a with
an article review.
We've had a lot of guests on,which have always been
wonderful, but it's wonderful tojust sit back and riff with you,
Mike, and be able to expand onan article and add it to our
repertoire.

SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Yeah, it's going to be a commodity in the future
here.
We're going to have to enjoythese solo sessions, Dan,
because we're going to have alot of guests in the future.

SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
2025 is going to be pretty booked up.
Very, very excited to have a lotof...
That's what we set out for,honestly.
We set out to have as manyguests as possible.

SPEAKER_00 (08:25):
And what that means, just really quickly before I
keep I keep interrupting you.
What that means is if you'reinterested, you got something to
say, please reach out to us.
Few things are as exciting forus on ABA on tap than when we
open up that email andsomebody's listened to our show
and they're saying, hey, I'vegot something to say.
So we have probably a good twoseasons lined up already

(08:45):
prospectively.
So again, don't be daunted bythat because it doesn't mean
that everybody shows up or thatall the slots are filled.
You got something to say, youwant to be on the podcast,
please do reach out ABA on tapat gmail.com.
All right, Dan, without furtherado.

SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
All right.
And Susan, Suzanne will probablyget back to you.
She's been moderating the email.
So if you get an email back fromSuzanne, she's part of the team
now.
And then, yeah, we will allconnect.
So the first part, when you're aparent, few things feel better
than telling your kids good jobor well done when they complete

(09:20):
an art project, get a good gradeor make their bed correctly.
So what could be wrong with alittle positive reinforcement?
Or it says positive enforcement.
According to Dr.
Becky Kennedy, good job is aconversation ender that can
prevent kids from getting thefull confidence-building
benefits of theiraccomplishments.

SPEAKER_00 (09:38):
Okay, so that's a lot to unpack there very
quickly.
So positive enforcement, youthink that's a typo, or did they
mean positive reinforcement?
That is a good question.
Probably that's what they meant.
Okay.
And again, just to kind of gettechnical here in terms of our
technology would only bepositive reinforcement if good
job actually promotes theemission of that behavior again

(10:02):
right yep uh just to just to gettechnical there um and i the
other thing that it says reallyquickly and i'll pass it to you
dan to see your thoughts is thatit's also important so
reinforcement we deliverreinforcement and delivering
reinforcement per that openingparagraph is reinforcing in and
of itself or reinforcing can be.
And if it is, then that meansyou'll be providing more

(10:24):
reinforcement in the future inresponse to those desired
behaviors.
So I think that's the point Iwant to kind of lay down for
now, see how it develops therest of the show.
Sure.
But for our RBTs, for us asBCBAs, delivering intervention,
delivering reinforcement shouldin and of itself be reinforcing
to us as much as possible.

(10:44):
Sure.
Right.
And that's what I think to makethis point.
As a parent, it feels good to dothat, which is why I'll start
right now.
I don't think she's saying don'tdo it.
She's saying do it a smallpercentage of the time.
Or better yet, expand on whatthat means to have done a good
job.
Mr.
Dan, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
Yeah, I totally agree that from the parenting
perspective, it has to bereinforcing as well for parents
to continue to do it.
So good job certainly is anacknowledgement of something
that was done correctly per theparent's expectation.
So that is useful.
I do remember, I don't know ifyou remember this, Mike, but in

(11:26):
my trainings and especially mytrainings early on in my ABA
field when I was conducting themand actually receiving some of
them, there was a very popular,it was just like a page that 101
ways to praise a client

SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
without saying good job.
Sure, sure.
Well, and it's interestingbecause that sort of started
that discussion.
What that tells me is we've beenafter, in ABA, we've been after
this premise that Dr.
Kennedy presents here for a longtime.
Now, if I remember that list,that list was a bunch of

(12:02):
synonymous variations of goodjob.
Yep.
Which...
would be about one percent ofwhat dr kennedy is saying here
so we're not going to poo-poothat list as much as we're going
to say you're on the right trackthe idea is variation and then
dr kennedy's talking aboutsomething different here she's
saying expand on it now shetalks about asking affirming

(12:24):
questions or questions thatallow the child to zoom in into
I guess their accomplishment?
Am I getting that right?
Dan, help me out here.

SPEAKER_01 (12:32):
Yeah, it says that Dr.
Becky adds that when parents saygood job and leave it at that,
we are teaching them to gaze outfor acceptance from others
instead of gazing in on theprocess they use to accomplish
their task.
By conditioning kids to look toothers for acceptance, whether
it's their parents, teachers, orfuture boss or spouse, we create

(12:56):
a world where they're lookingfor external validation.
This leads to anxiety and makesyou feel very empty and very
fragile and very, very anxious.

SPEAKER_00 (13:05):
Okay, that's a lot.
Let's see, maybe we can getaround to the anxiety part.
We're going to stick to thethings that you and I know how
to best measure observably,right?
So the idea here, let me see.
I'm trying to gather mythoughts.
You got something?

SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
Yeah, it seems like what she's saying, and it makes
sense, is it kind of creates atransactional relationship.

SPEAKER_00 (13:31):
Transactional.
So it's truncated.
There's no ability to developthat interaction.
That's it.
It's here's your product.
Here's your currency.
It's over.

SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Yeah, I've done it for you, right?
And that's how a lot of, I guessa lot of workforce is set up.
And that's why she was saying,or future boss.
is that the boss comes in andtells you to do something and
you do it for them.
I mean, you get paid for it.
So that is one's currency.
That could be the good job isthe money, but it's still done
kind of for the boss and notnecessarily you.

(14:07):
And so it's a transactional kindof thing, right?
Like, good job, you did that,thanks.

SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
So

SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
you're doing it for the other person, not for your
enjoyment.

SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
I hope this isn't too much of a stretch, but an
analogy that we face is, newbusiness owners that we will
continue to face as aba businessowners is sort of the balance
between providing anintervention and then counting
hours of service yeah yeah fairif all you focus is on the hours
then that's your transaction youexactly do the session you

(14:39):
convert your time you get paidsomewhere in that transaction if
you haven't infused qualityintervention.
And that's what Dr.
Becky is talking about here.
She's talking about the qualityof your statement, the quality
of your verbal behavior.
And I say verbal behavior toinclude vocal, meaning you're
saying certain words.
As a parent, maybe you have acertain facial expression on

(15:00):
your face.
Maybe you're also pointing outto the child so that you allow
them to zoom in, but you're alsozooming out to see what other
consequences, collateralconsequences, their behavior had
in terms of an impact on therest of their environment.
So the idea that, yes, you'renot doing this just to please me

(15:20):
as a parent, but guess what?
I am pleased with your behavior.
And why am I pleased?
Because now we're going to be ontime because look at how happy
your little sister is about whatyou did.
And look, your little sister, Imean, again, so now we're to
your point, it's no longertransactional.
Now it's interactional.
Now it's an interaction.

SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it definitely does become arobotic interaction.
A lot of times with the goodjob, I think what it can be
broken down to sometimes is I'masking you to do something.
You did it at the way that Iexpected.
Now I'm saying, good job.
Now do it again.
Now do it again.
Now do it again.
And that becomes kind ofhabitual sometimes.
Um, there runs some issues of,again, motivation.

(16:02):
So oftentimes money, money ismotivating.
Hopefully people are fortunateenough to work in a field where
their actual work and process oftheir work is motivating.
Um, I don't think everybody oreven necessarily a lot of people
are able to do that.
I think a lot of people just go,uh, I don't know.
put a plunger end on a stick andthat's their job.

(16:24):
They do that however manythousand times a day or they put
a wheel on a car and maybe theyreally enjoy the final product
of the car and I absolutely hopethey do.
But the good job just becomeslike, yeah, it becomes very
robotic and very transactionaland doesn't really lead to a lot
of generality either outside ofthat skill because you were
praised on one example of thatskill and And without breaking

(16:49):
down what you're getting praisedfor, reinforcement would say
that if you got reinforced fordoing said skill, you're going
to continue to do that exactbehavior over and over and over
and over again if good job isreinforcing.

SPEAKER_00 (17:03):
In fact, reinforcing.
Well, and that's what we have toask ourselves here, right?
So we assume that good job isreinforcing.
Now, what could be, in allfairness, what could...
What are the reinforcingelements, prospectively
reinforcing elements of goodjob?
There's a semantic meaning,right?
And then there's also a prosodicmeaning, right?

(17:23):
So if you do something good forme and I'm like, hey, Dan, good
job, bro.
That misses a little bit.
That only has a semanticfeeling.
But I'm like, hey, man, goodjob.
Good looking out.
That's a phrase you like to use,which I think has a lot of
meaning.
Beyond good job, good lookingout.
What did I look out for?
But you did this and that.
And you reminded me of thisbefore I...
thought of it and thank you manthe good looking out so i think

(17:46):
that's what we're getting athere is it's not to say don't
say good job i i'm going to goback to my 80 20 rule here try
to make it 10 to 20 percent ofthe time you're saying good job
80 to 90 percent of the time tryto describe that good job now dr
kennedy says something differentthan described so let's talk
about what she says and theni'll talk about why maybe i

(18:06):
agree with what she's saying andthen where I might disagree with
what she's saying, but moreparticular to, say, our RBTs and
the people that provide theintervention that we do.

SPEAKER_01 (18:16):
And just expanding one thing before I get to the
next part that you are askingabout is in order for a good job
to be reinforcing, like yousaid, there has to be some sort
of motivation behind it.
So it can be the reverence tothe person, maybe a child and
the parent.
So maybe that's where it couldbe.
It could be.
hey, we're buddies, so if yousay good job, I want to please
you because we're friends.
But there has to be some sort ofreverence to that person or

(18:38):
desire to please where the goodjob becomes motivating.
Or if your boss says good job,that kind of infers that you are
going to continue to have a joband therefore continue to get
paid.
So there's like comfort in thatas well.
So there has to be reverence,respect, something, some sort of
currency, whether it'sfriendship currency, monetary

(18:59):
currency, something that thatperson that's saying good job to
you is giving you or that youseek out from that person to
make good job reinforcing.

SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
So there's got to be a reinforcement history to begin
with.
which is another reason whyestablishing a good foundation
of what it means when you saygood job might be of value
toward those future 10% to 20%emissions.

SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (19:21):
that makes sense.
It makes total sense.

SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
But it also becomes very truncated in the
interaction.
It becomes very almostegocentric in some way from the
person saying good job, sayingthat my...
My praise of you should bemotivating enough for you to
continue to do that.
You think highly enough of methat me saying good job should

(19:44):
be motivating enough to you.
There's almost like an inferredegocentricity there, isn't
there?

SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
Yeah.
And again, that wouldn't makesense for, say, a younger child.
Yeah.
And then to your greater pointand Dr.
Kennedy's point.
We have to expand on that.
So it's, yes, a child mightstart with wanting to please
their mom.
And then we would want that togeneralize.
We love that word in ABA.
We would want that to generalizeacross that child's environment.
And to your point, not just interms of being ready to please

(20:10):
somebody else, but being readyto feel efficacious enough to
have utility in your environmentsuch that you can zoom in and
go, yeah i did that cool

SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
yeah yeah and i mean like we would even talk about
with the podcast right we'd veryrarely we probably do maybe 10
to 20 percent say hey good jobwith that but we'd probably say
like man you killed it with thatepisode or or that that was
awesome but unless we expand andexpound on what you did that
isn't going to generalize somaybe you did a really nice job
interviewing somebody but ifwe're riffing on a on an article

(20:42):
you can't replicate that toanother one so unless we expand
on what you did a good job ofthat's not really of much
utility and that's what she'sarguing as well

SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
and we're talking about enriching the environment
of good job too right so whetherwe're looking at this from a
language um a languageacquisition uh perspective or uh
you know whether expressive orcommunity or receptive the idea
is that we're creating a moreenriched environment what does
it mean to have done a good jobin terms of your actions, in
terms of how you've impactedyour environment in a way that,

(21:15):
if I'm saying good job, ispresumably positive or impactful
in a useful or utilitarian way.
And yeah, we want that fullenrichment of reinforcement,
right?
The idea that you're getting thefull bag, man.
Hey, and again, I don't know ifDr.
Kennedy is saying you do thisevery time, because this could
be a time constraint, which iswhy, again, I would look at the

(21:36):
10 to 20%.
Once in a while, hey, man, goodjob, really quickly.
And then make sure that whenyou're saying good job, you're
paying attention.
Yes.
Let the person know that you'repaying attention.
You're not just being passiveand dismissive.
Hey, good job, man.
Because if you just say goodjob, you don't have to pay
attention to what it is.
If you're doing what Dr.
Kennedy is asking, now you haveto be an active participant

(21:57):
jointly attending in providingthis reinforcement.

SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
So...
Quick little tangent on thatbecause...
I like it.
I was prompting you.
Yes.
So this actually recently cameup in a discussion that we had
over at Proact, the Moravianstudy.
We've referenced that a lot.
You know the Moravian study.
The communication is 55% bodylanguage, 38% tone, 7%.

(22:21):
Is that UCLA, right?
Yeah, UCLA.
69, I think is when.
there's actually been somerebutts to that, including Bob
Morabian himself saying thatthat's not the point of the
study.
And that the individuals thatwere done, it was a small sample

(22:41):
size, that the point of thestudy and what he showed was
that if what you're sayingdoesn't match your body
language, then people are goingto look at your body language
over then what you're saying.
Now, if everything is matched,then people are really going to
believe you.
But the good job, for example.

(23:01):
So, if you're saying, good job,but your body language is very
dismissive and you're not evenreally paying attention, that is
going to appear fraudulent,which is kind of interpreted as
that 55%.
But it was more a study of...
honesty and fraudulent messagesand how body language goes with
that.
So I think, again, I just wantto reiterate what you said in
that tangent.

(23:22):
Sure, we could say good job, butunless we're showing active and
engaged interest in that, we'regoing to appear fraudulent and
then that's going to carry lessweight down the road because
it's going to seem like I spentso much energy and effort doing
whatever this task is that youreinforced with good job that
you couldn't even spend fiveseconds to sit down and really

(23:43):
talk Well, and I

SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
think you're making a super important point sort of
on the other end of things,right?
So you're looking at it from thechild kind of saying, you didn't
give me enough value orreinforcement value for my task
perhaps.
And then on the parent'sperspective is you need to– we
talk about picking your battles.
Pick your value, right?
If a child did something reallydesirable– it's worth those five

(24:08):
seconds to stop yourself and go,hey, man, I'm paying attention,
right?
Back to the Moravian study,that's fascinating new...
that you mentioned there.
And I mentioned porosityearlier.
I'm thinking back.
I wish I had the reference inmind.
I'll try to find it.
I'm sure you guys out there inlistener land can Google it.

(24:29):
But Dr.
Anne Fernald, as somebody who Imentioned the enriched
environments, I had the pleasureof seeing her speak many years
ago.
And she was presenting someresearch on studies of porosity
with maybe toddlers, you know,maybe teenagers, So maybe like
12 months and younger.
And to your point, so now we'retalking about body language,

(24:52):
porosity, and the actual words.
What do you mean by porosity?
Tone.
So it's the differencebetween...
Yeah, I said it earlier, right?
Me going, hey, good job, versus,yeah, good job, man.
There's a difference in themeaning of those two.
Or if I said, oh, yeah, realgood job, man.
Now that's sarcasm, right?
So not that 12-month-oldsunderstand that, but she had

(25:13):
this really interesting studywhere they set up these infant
studies, and they've got theparents, the child sitting on
the parent's lap, and they'vegot this cover so that the child
can't see the parent's face.
And they would put aninteresting object that they
knew the child was going toreach for out in front of the
table, right?
And if the child, they would dothese discordant prosodic cues.

(25:34):
And what I mean by that is theywould start mixing up the
language and the prosody, thesemantics and the prosody.
So the child's reaching for thetoy and a voice would start
going, yes, yes, reach for thattoy.
Reach for that toy now.
Kind of punishing voice, right?
And you would see the childlike, reach and then they would

(25:55):
hear the tone it was like theywere confused because it's
saying yes but the tone issaying no as opposed to the yeah
get the toy sure get the toy uhor the idea that it was no no
don't get that toy at all andyou start seeing to my point is
you start seeing the developmentof semantic language because now
they're using prosody as well asthe meaning of it and they're

(26:16):
like it's so funny to see these12 menthols like confused like
wait what are you telling me yesare you telling me no but to dr
kennedy's So you outlined thesethings inadvertently, but I
think there's at least threecues.
We're talking about tone ofvoice or prosody.
We're talking about your bodylanguage and then the actual
words that you say.
And if those three things cometogether, you could provide the

(26:38):
strongest reinforcementpossible, presumably.
And

SPEAKER_01 (26:41):
that third thing that you said is probably the
only value of that 101 pieces,right?
Is that...
I'm going to spend enough mentalenergy to at least think of a
different word and not justregurgitate the same thing that
I've said, which shows you thatI'm not even willing to put that
much brain power.
I'm just going to regurgitatethe same thing I say over and

(27:03):
over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Right, right.
So to your point, it's almostlike the words are third in line
there.

SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
They

SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
are.
They're an important part.
They're an important variable,but they're, I would argue, I
would agree with you, they'rethe third part.
So the idea that now your bodylanguage, your tone, We could
probably even put more variablesin there in terms of your
intent.
Now your word choice and thenmaybe the words by themselves.

SPEAKER_01 (27:27):
That would be an interesting study.
You should have somebody do itin Chinese to somebody that
doesn't speak to Chinese.
They're going to say good jobquickly in English or they're
going to sit down and engage butspeak Chinese.
The learner has no idea whatChinese is and I don't know the
answer of it but to show whetherthe words or the actual
engagement have more meaning.

SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
That's interesting too because I do know I'm trying
out into unknown land here, butI do know that prosody varies
from language to language.
So what seems harsh to us insome Asiatic languages
specifically is actuallyelation, excitement, happiness.
We talk about that with

SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
cultural bias training.

SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I don't know enough about that, so I won't go on.
I won't continue.
All right, let's talk about whatelse Dr.
Becky has

SPEAKER_01 (28:13):
here.
Instead, Dr.
Becky...
And this goes from where wetalked about the good job and
the increase of anxiety.
Instead, Dr.
Becky suggests that parents leanin and ask their child about the
process that it took to createthat piece of art or clean their
room.
This helps the child developgreater self-confidence and
focus more on their process nexttime they put...

(28:36):
Next time they put their mind toaccomplishing something.
So again, process versus outcomeoriented.
Nice, dude.
She says a great place to startis to ask process questions such
as, oh, how did you come up withthat topic?
Oh, what made it start that way?
Or, oh, what was it like writingthat?
The child psychologist saysinitially it may feel

(28:56):
uncomfortable to ask probingquestions.
Once you get started, it'seasier, Dr.
Becky said.
And yes, it actually focuses onwhat's more in a kid's control.
And then setting up your kids tofeel good about themselves, even
if they're not always getting100, is just a massive
privilege.
That's actually interesting.
And it actually makes them workharder because they're focused

(29:17):
on their effort and processinstead of just the result.
One more paragraph.
Go ahead.
A great way to think about howwe praise children is how we
would like to be treated as...
Actually, no.
That'll be the next one.
The next one.
All right.
So process versus outcomeoriented.

SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
So I love talking about...
Process versus product.
We've talked about that here,right?
ABA can be very product orientedwith good reason.
And what Dr.
Becky here is saying is thatmight be at the expense of the
process.
Now, I'm going to expand on thisand then pass it over to you
because I know you got some goodthings to say.
Particularly at ABA, I might notpush back, but I might present a

(29:56):
variation on the questions,right?
So now what I think Dr.
Becky's saying here is thequestions allow you to
demonstrate that you're payingattention.
The only reason I am weary aboutthe questions is that I think
that ABA intervention is alreadyso question intensive.
We love our interrogatives, andagain, with good reason.
So the only thing I would add tothat paragraph, and I wonder if
Dr.

(30:16):
Becky would agree or disagree,especially if your child
suddenly stops answering yourquestions, because all kids can
sometimes get a little, youknow, hey, how was your day at
school?
It was good.
So now to her point, you wouldwant to ask more probing, more
specific questions.
Now, that doesn't mean that yourchild is going to answer those
questions.
So what do you do when yourchild stops answering?

(30:39):
You go into commenting, right?
Thinking back into yourlinguistic mapping.
I use the example, which you'vealways been very fond of, of
looking at a child paint at aneasel.
You've got a three-year-oldpainting at an easel.
And it would be a lot of ourimmediate habit to go, oh, what
is that, a car?
Oh, it's a house.
what dr becky is saying hereright she's saying ask questions

(31:01):
but what i would shift that intois now oh you're using the red
paint oh you're moving thepaintbrush from left to right oh
now top to bottom oh now you'reusing two brushes so getting
into that comment again the ideathat you can look at your
child's worksheet or their workof art whatever it is you can
ask questions you can makecomments both of those things
now make you pay attention whichhuh Is that one of our functions

(31:26):
of behavior?
You mean you could derivereinforcement from having your
parent pay attention to you andmoreover add some really
attractively prosodic phrasingsabout how well you did and
looking at your process?
I think that's the full packagewe're looking at here is you're
paying attention, you're askingquestions, you're making
comments.
To your point, you're taking thetime to increase the

(31:47):
reinforcement value.

SPEAKER_01 (31:49):
So let me ask you this, Mike, and I totally agree
with what you're saying.
The commenting piece can be sovaluable.
Historically, in Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Oh, that's a fantastic question, sir.
So yes to your latter question.
I think that this is where jointattention is valuable.
And then I would have to say wehave to go back to our simple
technology and affirm theconsequent.
Because yes, you're right.
The commenting, the questions,if...
We have to look at what'sreinforcing.
Just because Dr.
Becky says the questions mightbe reinforcing doesn't mean they

(32:38):
will be.
Now, I'm not saying she's wrongin what she's saying, but she's
giving us an inkling, a hint asto the fact that, hey, don't
just say good job, expand onthat.
And then you're making a damngood point, which is if
expanding on that doesn'tnecessarily prove reinforcing to
your particular learner, thenwhat is your version of it,
right?
So it might mean that instead ofsaying good job, which is nice

(32:59):
and quick and easy, and it's anice time-saving way to...
I'll let you give the examplehere because you can look at a
mom who's super busy and, oh,honey, good job.
I need to go tend to the, youknow, there's a million things
going on in the stove.
And I've got, ooh, that's a bad,that's a no-no.
So dad is at the stove.
You get my point.
You're running around busy.
So you stop and you payattention.

(33:20):
So it's a nice one.
So you might consider then,okay, it is good job, good for
me, yes.
And then what am I trying to dois just expand on what the good
job is.
Hey, you finished your painting.
So now your prosody along withyour joint attention, your gaze
shift, your pointing, the ideathat you're paying attention and
providing something moreexpansive, more detail-oriented

(33:41):
than just good job.
Now, back to your very excellentquestion.
It could be that you findyourself and your learner just
wants good job because not as itonly positive reinforcement,
it's negative reinforcement.
It gets you off their back rightaway.
They've pleased you.
They're moving on.
Now they're getting access totheir extrinsic motivator.

(34:01):
But that's the question we'vealways asked here on ABA on Tap.
That balance between extrinsicand intrinsic, and that's what
Dr.
Becky's talking about here.
The more you can find some levelof intrinsic motivation in your
achievement, knowing that you'vealso impacted somebody else in a
way that's been official to themthat's now a sense of
self-efficacy i can do for meand therefore i can do for

(34:22):
others and i think that's whatwe're getting here in this sort
of total rate raise a decenthuman being kind of parenting
advice

SPEAKER_01 (34:29):
yep i really like the the process versus the
outcome piece because at the endof the day potentially process
does control outcome itcertainly does to an extent but
I could work on my basketballskills for the next five years.
I'm not going to be LeBronJames.
So it does to an extent, but itdoesn't always control outcome
because there are certainoutcomes that no matter what

(34:51):
processes I put in place, I'mnot going to be able to achieve.
So it does, I really like thefact that it focuses on that
because it does build thatself-efficacy because like she
said, at the end of the day,that is what we have control
over.
We do have control over theprocesses, how many free throws
I put up, how many wind sprintsI do.
I have control over that and Ican see myself potentially
getting better.

(35:11):
The outcome's kind ofinteresting because also when we
say good job, it's kind ofunclear and I think that's what
she's saying is we're sayinggood job to the outcome, right?
But that's weird because whoknows how we came about.
That dismisses the rest of it.
Who knows, right?

(35:31):
We used to have two dogs, right?
And we would throw the ball out.
One dog would go to the water,get the ball.
The other dog would wait at theshore, steal the ball from the
dog and bring it to us.
If we didn't see that, we wouldcompliment the dog that, brought
it to us right like you don'tknow if you're not observing the
process presumably you might notbe because you're just saying
good job so you're just lookingat the outcome you don't know

(35:53):
how that came about maybe theperson cheated to get the grade
but they got an a we see theygot an a we say good job so i
guess this kind of goes back towhat you're saying too is the
attentiveness in order for us toexpand on our we have to be more
aware of how they came aboutthose affirmations.
So it kind of goes both ways.
It does give more credibility tothe client, but it also makes

(36:17):
sure that we're paying attentionmore.

SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
Man, you just packed up a lot in that, and it's
making me think, and I know I'vecaught your attention over here
with what's sitting on my desk,but what I want to say really
quickly is what Dr.
Kennedy is talking about here, Ithink, is that what we need to
potentiate the idea of chainingaffirmations or shaping and or

(36:40):
differential reinforcement.
Because without speaking toprocess, I don't think there's
any way you can do those things.

SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
That's a good point.
You can differentially reinforcewithout that.

SPEAKER_00 (36:50):
I mean, because otherwise, because you have to
reinforce successiveapproximations to shape, which
means that if all you're doingis focusing on the end product
with good job, you have missedthat entire behavior sequence
towards shaping that new skill.
I didn't think about that when Ifirst went over that article,
but there

SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
you go.
Now, Dan, you got somethingelse?
But there's another bottlethat's brown.

(37:30):
I hope that's not just a greenbottle that's gone bad of magic.

SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
No, Dan.
I am glad you asked, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Yes.
I am fully immersed in magic.
for my mind almost on a dailybasis now, man.
I gotta say, I'm super happy.
So I've talked about magic mindand my flow state, right?
In fact, you see the empty greenbottle, you see the traces at
the bottom.
I'm flowing right now with themagic, my friend.
I've been using it for a coupleof years now.
And this morning I woke up, Igot my coffee brewing, and more

(38:00):
importantly, took a peek in myfridge and saw that beautiful
little green performance shotchilling, waiting for me.
On Friday, I started taking myshot and prep for ABA on tap
today.
Now, perhaps more importantly,my friend, is this little
pinkish-brownish bottle you seehere, which I can't take now
because that's nighttime elixir.

(38:20):
See?
That's Magic Mind Sleep Elixir,and it's magical indeed.
Let me tell you.
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Dan.
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(38:43):
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I'm stoked, man.
So what this begins to defineand build, we talk a lot about
mental health.
We'll be right back.

(39:19):
All right.
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(39:42):
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(40:02):
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(40:22):
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(41:04):
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(41:24):
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Good job.
Thanks, sir.
Let's get back into it.
So.
Talking again.
Oh, good job.
Oh, man, you didn't evenacknowledge my process, dude.

(41:45):
You went straight to theproduct.

SPEAKER_01 (41:47):
Well, you used a whole lot of Stanford words in
that.
I'm not sure.
Again, I just went to UC.
I went to public school.
So those are way over my head.
But I noticed you have beensleeping better.
And

SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
I know you've been raving about it.
Genesine triphosphate.
Yes, I have been raving aboutit.
And I also do the other sleepcocktail that you know about.
The Huberman one?
Yep.
I think after this, I need tocompare the product ingredients.
I do know Althea.
Theanine plays a really goodrole in both mental flow state
and alertness as well assoothing, which points to these

(42:18):
sort of generic physiologicalconstructs, right, that depend
on context, just like good joband porosity, for example.
So you have another snippet toread for us?

SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
I do.
Before I do, anything you wantedto add on my two cents before
the magic mind discussion ormove on?

SPEAKER_00 (42:35):
No, I think we're good there.
Let's see if we can expand,though, on that idea of– So I
ended up with talking about theidea of process and you can't,
you can't differentiate orreinforce or shape unless you're
reinforcing some successiveapproximation toward a final
target, I guess.
Right.
So, so you have to do it.
I mean, what she's saying fitsright into our model of

(42:56):
reinforcement.

SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
And it just depends on what you're trying to teach,
right?
Are you trying to teach you dowhatever you can to come out
with a certain outcome or areyou trying to teach the process
of how to go about said outcomeas well?

SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
So the idea that, um making creme brulee might have
very specific steps that thatyou can't necessarily vary and
then there's the idea that yesyou might arrive at a cake even
though you don't follow theexact recipe yep okay that's
fair i think that's really fairand i would say that an aba
Traditionally, historically, wehave erred on the side of

(43:28):
there's one cake recipe and onecake recipe only.

SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
And one SD.

SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
And one SD only, and only one person that can deliver
the SD.
And what we're talking abouthere is expanding on that model.

SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting because youalways used to say, and this is
long before we've read thisarticle, is you always used to
say, if you're going to say goodjob, tell them good job with
what?
So what did they do a good jobwith?
Elaborate on that.
And then we would notice thatonce...
People started doing that.
The good job started to fade alittle bit.

(43:59):
People still used it, I'd saymore than 50% of the time.
But instead of saying, you know,just good job, they would say
good job with what?
Like, good job painting theyellow school bus that really
looks like the one outside.
Then people could just fade thegood job.
painting and then wow thatyellow school now they're
commenting like you said earlierso it was kind of like a

(44:20):
three-step process went fromgood job to good job with what
to fading the good job and nowit became a comment

SPEAKER_00 (44:25):
yeah well and what you've delineated there is at
least three ways to do thisknowing that if you're keeping
the good job to 10 to 20 percentagain and i don't think i can't
say this enough the title hookedyou to say don't do this but
what we're saying is don't do itsolely and don't do it the
majority of the time

SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
So what's interesting is you just
explained what I did a good jobof.
You said I did a good jobdelineating it.
Think of how weird that wouldhave been in that interaction if
you would have just said, goodjob.
I would have had no idea what Idid a good job with.

SPEAKER_00 (44:59):
I guess context helps a little bit, but again,
we can't stress it enough.
You're really making a strongerconnection with your child, with
the recipient of saidreinforcement and saying, let me
outline for you all the ways inwhich your behavior had an
impact on your environment in away that maybe you'll do it

(45:22):
again.

SPEAKER_01 (45:22):
Yep.
I mean, your daughter just builta fort, right?
If you were just like, good jobwith the fort.
That's one thing.
I'm sure she'd want to show youa lot of things, and she would
really be interested on what younoticed about the fort.
Man, you

SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
just sparked an idea here.
It's the magic mind.
It is the magic mind kicking inagain.
It's the second wave of magicmind here.
If I were to ask her to take thefort down and she were to give
me the resistance, I wouldprobably engage in the very type
of elaboration that Dr.
Becky is talking about we dowhen we say good job, but we

(45:56):
tend to engage in thatelaboration when we're
correcting or scolding.
That's exactly when We turn itup.
We turn up the volume, right?
So the idea, and I think I'vesaid something similar here on
the show, but the idea is youwant to reinforce your children.
If you're doing it verbally andvocally, you want to do it with
the same fervor and absolutevalue as though you were tearing

(46:18):
into them, right?
Because, damn, we're good attearing into our kids.
The phone goes away.
The phone goes away, man.
You're animated.
You're pointing.
You're gesturing.
Your face is making all sorts ofexpressive countenances.
But we tend to truncate thatmore down to the good job.
So I might say is think of youtearing into your kid because
they really made you angry andyou take the absolute value of

(46:41):
that energy and that fervor andapply it.
in some way, shape, or form.
Maybe don't yell, but in someway, shape, or form to what Dr.
Becky is saying here, which is,man, let your kids know what
aspect of this is a good, what'sgood, what was the job, and what
was good about it.
Can you, maybe that's a goodformula.
Okay, instead of saying goodjob, think to yourself, what was
the job?

(47:02):
Oh, you did the painting.
What was good about it?
Oh, wow, that painting, you puta lot of paint on it.
Ah, you took a lot of time.
That's cool.
Do you like it?
I think it's really bright.
And then she's saying questions,right?
So what else can you ask aboutit?
Are you going to do another oneor maybe later?
You're going to take a breaknow?
So to Dr.
Becky's point now, that's nottransactional.

(47:22):
That's an interaction.
Yep.
That's enriched.

SPEAKER_01 (47:24):
Yep.
So next piece, there's two more.
This is the first one.
A great way to think about howwe praise children is how we
would like to be treated asadults.
Woo! Well...

SPEAKER_00 (47:56):
So I'm going to have to push back on Dr.
Becky here because I think thatwhat you really want from your
boss is the bonus check, andthen they can go.
And to get off your ass.

SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Yeah.
You don't want them to find outhow you fudged the numbers.

SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
Not important.
Did we make revenue?
Did we make more profit?
Give me my bonus check.
So obviously we're beingfacetious, but that's an
excellent point, right?
So yes, as adults, we might.
derive a lot of negativereinforcement from our boss if
he just gives us the bonus checkand goes back to his office good
enough but the idea that you'vegot an enthusiastic charismatic

(48:32):
boss who pulls you in and goeshey you got a couple minutes hey
can uh let's go grab a cup ofcoffee together hey man here's a
bonus check wow you've earnedthis can you tell me a little
bit about what what happenedwhat was the strategy that you
know was it just kind ofhappenstance or did you do
something actively?
And how can I support you indoing that again?

(48:55):
Because, you know, if it's not aone-off, if it wasn't just a
bunch of new clients or whateverthe case is, how do I, how do I
recognize that, that this, thesecondary reinforced this
placeholder, right?
Which is now the bonus checkbecause it represents extra
revenue for the company.
So now I'm sharing with you thatthat's the secondary part.
The primary reinforcement, Iwould argue, and I think that's

(49:16):
what you're nodding your headabout over there feverishly, is
the interaction.
I love the way you pitch that.
It's not just this quicktransaction.
It's got to expand.

SPEAKER_01 (49:27):
That's a great example with the boss.
Because you know at the end ofthe day what the most valuable
resource is?
What's that?
Time.
You can't ever...
You can get more of almost anyother resource.
You can't get more...
More time.
So I heard an interesting,somebody was saying, Warren
Buffett's like 95, I forget howold Warren Buffett is, but he's

(49:50):
an aged gentleman, and he's oneof the wealthiest people in the
world.
And he was like, how many peoplewould trade places with him?
Not a lot, because he probablydoesn't have that much time.
So what you're saying with yourexample is the boss found it
valuable to invest his time tocompliment you and spend with
you.
And good job's the exactopposite of that.

SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
And that's the attention function, right?
That's the attention function.
A lot of times we're talkingabout it on the other side of
the equation, which is yourchild is emitting an undesirable
behavior to you and you'respending a lot of time scolding
and correcting.
And...
On the other end, maybe you'resaying good job whenever.
So there's an imbalance there.

(50:32):
Your child is clearly gettingmuch more attention from you in
those circumstances for theundesired.
So your point fits right.
The idea of time and attention,I think, is very somewhat
synonymous.
They're correlated for sure,right?
So that's an excellent point.
I

SPEAKER_01 (50:47):
mean, it happens with bosses just as well as
parents, right?
I've been in plenty of boardmeetings, and when stuff's not
going well, those are long boardmeetings to figure out exactly
what needs to change.
When stuff is going well, hey,Mike, nice job.
Those are much shorter boardmeetings, right?
So the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 (51:02):
Don't they call them board meetings because they're
boring?

SPEAKER_01 (51:05):
Everybody's bored?
Yeah.
Because they're nailingeverybody to the board.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:11):
It's a bunch of people just talking about
revenue and no other process.
That's why they're boring.

SPEAKER_01 (51:16):
Well, that's, I mean, that's something and we
won't need to spend too muchtime on that, but that's an
example, right?
We see this all the time invarious board meetings that I've
been on.
They look at the outcome anddon't look at the process and
wonder how certain outcome Soyou're

SPEAKER_00 (51:38):
saying that your prospective impact or influence
on your child's behavior willimprove?
by paying more attention to whatthey're doing, such that when
you say good job, you know whatthe good job was?
Wow, Mr.
Dan, that's revolutionary, man.
You're right, you're right,because the more informed you

(51:59):
are, the more of an influenceyou're gonna be able to have on
those successive approximationsas you work toward shaping some
behavior.
And we're always looking at thisfrom the singular, linear, I
know I say this all the time.
What I like that we're talkingabout here that this article's
making us talk about are all thecorrelated, we talk about
domains, for example, right?
And it's hard for us toconceptualize the...

(52:21):
I guess, a multivariateapproach.
Another Stanford word.
Because of our three-partcontingency, we're always
looking at more of a univariate,meaning we're looking at one SD,
one behavior, one consequence.
What we're talking about here ismany possible SDs, many possible
behaviors toward a slew ofexpanded consequences.

(52:41):
Yep.
That's what we're after.

SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
And the multivariate's such a good
point, too, because if good jobis working, it's all based on
the premise, again, that there'sreverence or you're wanting to
please that person.
So if that person says good job,and again, I'm just kind of
reiterating something I saidearlier, you probably did 50,
100, 1000 things before theysaid good job.
So now it's on you as thelearner to try to infer what you

(53:05):
did a good job of, maybe it'sthe product, or what part of the
process you did a good job of.
Whereas if somebody can specifythe process you did a good job
of, that will be much moreeasily repeatable.

SPEAKER_00 (53:15):
Yeah, yeah.
And so you mentioned earlier,too, or I think you were talking
about it, I might have alludedto it, as a parent, as a
teacher, it might be verydifficult to always see the
entire process.
So in that sense, now...
that's where Dr.
Becky's questions come in,right?
That's where they're valuable.
Or the idea that you didn't seethe whole process.

(53:37):
You don't have any questions ortime to ask questions.
Now, how can you just expand onthe good job by letting the
child know what level, and thenback to your point, that yes,
maybe part of it is pleasing me.
Let me tell you how that made itwork out better for me or for
some other aspect of yourenvironment, or better yet, how

(53:57):
what you just did made it workout really well for our family.
Yes.
Okay.
So maybe that's where Dr.
Becky talks about theself-confidence, the lack of
anxiety that maybe you're alittle confused or vague as to
maybe you did something wrong.
Your parents frustrated.
I took a little too long to putmy shoes on as we're going to
church.
I'm reaching here.

(54:17):
But the idea is that maybethat's what she's talking about.
There's a certainty in I did.
I did for me, and I can do it,and I did, and it had an impact
on my family versus the vagaryof I didn't get a good job, now
I'm being scolded, now I'm notreally sure what I did right or
wrong.
So I don't know if that's whatshe's pointing to, but I would
love to learn more about that.
Hint, hint, in case Dr.

(54:38):
Becky wants to help out asmaller but well-known
third-ranked ABA podcast.
So anyway, we'd love to have heron the show in case anybody out
there is listening and wants tomake the hookup.

SPEAKER_01 (54:49):
Well, you brought up two points.
One is...
Good job tends to be very topdown versus bottom up.
It's just what is the processthat was done?
And think about that in ABA,right?
I remember doing DTT with colorsand spending months and months
and months.
And somebody might not besuccessful.
And unless we're looking at theprocess, we're just looking at

(55:09):
the outcome.
And we're saying this persondoesn't know red.
So what I'm going to do as thetherapist is I'm going to...
basically uh violate einstein'sdefinition of insanity i am
going to continue to do the sameexact thing over and over and
over again with the same processuntil you say red but what is
the where is this falling apartwhere in the process is it

(55:31):
falling apart is it theattending is it the fact that
they don't have the vocalizationis it the fact that they're not
able they might be colorblinddid we ever think about that um
there's seldom I literallydidn't think about that until
right now.
I

SPEAKER_00 (55:44):
actually have one experience with that, which I
won't get into.
But to your point, it wasworking the process as opposed
to just sitting there going, oh,this kid can't learn his colors.
I think we were playing with thebilliards balls.
And I forget how we came uponit, but it's like, hey...
I don't think he can detectcolor.
But to your point, unless youpay attention to your process,

(56:08):
you might make a falseattribution or conclusion about
that child's learning ability.

SPEAKER_01 (56:11):
Yep.
I was playing pickleball with mybuddy yesterday.
And he's colorblind.
And he was saying that hebrought somebody to play.
And I was like, oh, the guy withthe blue shirt?
And he was like, yeah, I don'tknow which guy has a blue shirt.
Because he's colorblind, right?
Interesting.
So let me read the last twoparagraphs.
And then we can riff on that.

(56:33):
Dr.
Becky also uses the example ofvisiting someone's house who
recently redecorated.
I go, oh, I love your house.
Good job.
It's actually a conversationender, Dr.
Becky said.
But instead, if I said, how didyou pick the color of the wall
on that couch?
You would, okay, well, let metell you and let me show you my
Pinterest board or whatever itwas.

(56:53):
And even if I never said goodjob, I bet you would feel more
lit up inside and almost betterthan if I just ended the
conversation that same way.
Ultimately, instillingconfidence in children is more
about acknowledging the resultsof their actions, and it's more
about asking them to explaintheir processes, curiosity, and
effort.
We can instill resilience andconfidence by asking questions

(57:15):
and allowing them to expresstheir deeper connection in the
work.
There's nothing wrong withpraising a good job.
So that's, I guess, what you'resaying.
But the real confidence buildingcomes with meaningful
conversation and how they madeit happen.
The second to last paragraphreally hit home with me because
it would...
It would be really awkward ifyou redecorated your house and I

(57:37):
came over and I was like, goodjob, Mike.
We would never do that.
That's so weird.
But we do that all the time withkids.
Just good job, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 (57:46):
You said I did a good job with my car when you
came in.
It looked clean.

SPEAKER_01 (57:50):
I said you did a good job with the misting.
Misting.
Product placement.
Shout out to Elite Finish WashMist.

SPEAKER_00 (57:59):
They want a piece of the action.
I'm great testimonials on theproduct for sure.
Let me see.
Let me gather my thoughts here.
I went on a tangent there.
But...
Recap for me here.
You were saying so.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So it's the difference betweenetiquette or meaningful, again,

(58:21):
interaction to go back to thepoint you met initially.
If I come into your home, itcould be customary for me to
say, oh, you have a lovely home.
Okay, good enough.
I was nice.
I was polite.
We're done.
Maybe I don't like your home.
And I'm saying that to be nice.
Okay.
Maybe I don't like your home,but I need to be courteous.
Right.
And there's a certain etiquettethat we're upholding.

(58:43):
So the idea that now I can say,hey, you know, thank you for
inviting us.
And then you find one aspect ofthe home that you find
interesting.
That's what we're after here isthere's a there's a.
There's an aspect of beinggenuine or sincerity that we're
after here.
I know that we don't talk aboutthose words a lot in ABA, but
that's what we're after here.
There's a quality to thequantitative, the measurable

(59:07):
interaction.
There's a quality to it.
The things we call etiquette,the things that we call little
white lies, right?
So maybe I don't like your home,but I'm not going to tell you
that.
I'm not going to make you feelabout it unless we're in some
sort of spat or dispute.
But the idea that I can presentmyself as a conscious,
observing, you know,well-intended individual with my

(59:28):
words is kind of what you'remodeling for your kids here too
is inquisitiveness,observational skills, etiquette,
plain etiquette, right?
The idea that, yeah, I talkedabout this in a parent group
recently with regard to theholidays and there was a mom
saying, yeah, how do you teachyour kids to just be grateful
for a gift as opposed to openingit up and realizing that they

(59:50):
don't like what they got andthen saying that to the person,
right?
And what's the answer there?
A little bit of description andwhite lies.
Yeah, we're teaching ourchildren to say, oh, you realize
you didn't really like this, andthen you're considering the
other person, and then you'reexpanding on the, thank you,
good job giving me a gift.
What does that mean?
It's a lot of theory of mind.
Yes, it is.
And again, ultimately, we'reteaching deception in that very

(01:00:13):
polite interaction, right?
So all of these things, I think,are modeled and encapsulated
within ourselves.
It's one example of what Dr.
Becky's saying.
By doing this, we're modeling alot of those things toward
greater learning.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:26):
See, the problem with what you just said, though,
is if you give too many of thewhite lies, then you still get
the crappy sweater from grandmaevery Christmas for like 15
years because you weren't honestto say that the sweater is crap
and you want

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:40):
something else.
That is an excellent point.
And going back to the articlehere, pointing back to the
article, that's where you haveto say, Grandma, this is not a
good job.
So that's Dr.
Becky's follow-up article.
Dr.
Becky, if you're out there, weneed the follow-up.
Part two of this article, whichis when to say not a good job.
For example, Dan, when yourgrandmother gives you the ugly

(01:01:03):
sweater year after year.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:04):
So you brought up a good point, and Dr.
Becky talks about that in thearticle.
So you said the lovely house.
If I come over and I say...
Mike, you have a lovely house.
What's your response probablygoing to be?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:16):
Oh, thank you, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:17):
Conversation ended.
Right, that's it.
Right?
That is a conversation ender.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:20):
Yeah.
No, it is.
And it's telling me that maybeyou don't want to ask anything
about it.
Right now, I could go on andsay, oh, well, thank you.
You know, we've been here aboutfive years.
Now that's weird.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, now I'm talkingabout myself without you having
asked.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:32):
Exactly.
And now that's weird because bymy statement, it infers that I
don't really care that much.
So now if you're going to expandon it, now that's almost
inconsider of me because if Icared that much, I would have
been more specific with mypraise.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:47):
Or you could be even more awkward and be like, oh,
you have a lovely home.
Oh, yeah?
What part of it do you think islovely?
Yeah, absolutely.
But that becomes weird.
Yeah, we're going to pretend ourkids are asking us that in this
example.
Hey, good job.
Oh, yeah?
Tell me about that.
What's the good job?
That's kind of what Dr.
Becky is saying.
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:05):
Fair enough.
So one last final point.
And it came up actually when Ihad my, during the prep, I had
my girlfriend read the article.
Yeah.
My girlfriend is, she was aprincipal.
Now she's back in the preschoolclassroom.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:17):
I'm going to have to offer a correction here.
She's not your girlfriend.
Registered.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:21):
RDP.
Registered domestic partner.
Thank you.
My RDP.
As you were, sir.
She read the article and she waslike, yeah, that makes sense.
However, it's not alwayspossible.
You know, she has, I don't know,10 kids or or classroom or
something like that, she doesn'tnecessarily have the ability for
each kid to sit down and do allof that because they have a lot

(01:02:41):
of kids.
So she's like, yeah, sometimes Ijust have to say good job and
keep it moving.
What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:46):
Yeah.
Again, I think we alluded tothat a little bit.
I made my little faux pas aboutputting the mother in the
kitchen and I quickly correctedto put the father in there.
I think that's a very legitimatepoint.
What I would say, and I wonderwhat Dr.
Becky would say, but what Iwould say is you can find a
trunk.
So 10 to 20% of the time, Youcan say good job because if
you're 80 to 90 percent of thetime expanding on it, then

(01:03:07):
you're not running into thepitfall that I think Dr.
Becky's talking about.
I think Kaylee, your registereddomestic partner, makes an
excellent point.
And that's to say that you couldalso maybe revisit it later,
depending on your students levelof understanding or level of
engagement.
The idea that you might say,hey, you finished your painting.
Good job.
And then later circle back andgo, hey, come here.

(01:03:30):
Tell me, why did you use thispaint here?
Why did you use this color here?
Oh, I see that you mixed themthere.
So you can do it.
And I think that's an excellentpoint in the sense that it makes
it a very practical feel to thissuggestion or this premise now.
Yes.
We are rushing through life, allof us.
And as parents, you're oftenjuggling 10, 12 things at a

(01:03:50):
time.
So the idea that you mightinterpret this article as saying
you're going to take this time,you're going to sit down, you're
going to talk to your child.
Yeah, that's crazy.
No, I'm running around.
Yeah, we're back to that ratioof 10% to 20% of the time.
Sure.
Use good job.
And then if you can 80% of thetime go back and revisit it or
expand in the moment, I thinkthat you'll see the improvement

(01:04:14):
in the outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:15):
That makes a lot of sense.
I might alter.
So I think the 80-20, 90-10definitely makes a lot of sense
for a parent.
Maybe it's a teacher.
Maybe it's 50-50.
Maybe...
50-50.
But the question is, you've gotto make time.
Make it happen.
Make it happen.
Maybe it's 80-20 the other way.
But nobody remembers.
When you think about theteachers that were meaningful
for you, nobody remembers theteachers that just said, good

(01:04:37):
job.
You remember the teachers thatspent some time, connected with
you, and explained things to youin a way that resonated.
And even if that's 20% of thetime, they still showed that
they cared enough about you as astudent that they were going to
invest their time into yourfuture success?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:53):
Maybe a mental note, right?
As a teacher or parent, as aprofessional, the idea that I'm
a little tied up right now.
I made sure that I at leastlooked over at you made some eye
contact so that you know I wasspeaking to you, I said good
job, and then I make a mentalnote that I've made one good
job, I should circle back atsome point and expand on that or
find a different opportunity toexpand on a good job with that

(01:05:15):
child.
Back to your 50-50 point ofevery time you say good job, you
make a mental note to yourselfand say, hey, I'm going to
circle back to that kid, thatmight be the way to do it.
Man.
The hour goes quickly.
We're getting ready for longerepisodes.
We're not sure how we're goingto handle that.
Nice, succinct one today.
Thank you, Dr.
Becky Kennedy, for an excellentarticle.
You're welcome to come on ourshow anytime you like.

(01:05:41):
Go ahead, Dan.
What were

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:41):
you going to say?
Again, we have many, many guestslined up.
People that are interested inbecoming guests, again, abaontap
at gmail.com.
Please reach out to us.
We are very, very excited aboutwhat 2025 is going to be.
Yep,

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:56):
and can't thank Suzanne Jeswick enough.
Thank you for her newpartnership in ABA on Tap.
She is going to propel the showa little further.
We're now a

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:06):
business.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:07):
We're incorporated.
We're now an official business.
Exciting.
That makes two for us, right?
Yes.
We've got to send an ABA on Tap.
That's exciting, man.
So you guys out there, stayfaithful.
Continue to analyze responsibly.
Oh, I might get ahead of myselfthere.
I need some closing points here,Dan.

(01:06:27):
Help me out.
I like the way you ended thatslash good job.
Oh, good job?
What was the good job?
So we spent some time talkingabout reinforcing consequences
today.
Continue to vary thosereinforcing consequences as much
as you can, which means you'respending time paying attention
to what the job is your child isdoing that may end up being a

(01:06:50):
good job.
And if you do that, you knowwhat you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:53):
Analyzing responsibly.
Cheers, brother.
See

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:58):
ya.
ABA on Tap is recorded live andunfiltered.
We're done for today.
You don't have to go home, butyou can't stay here.
See you next time.

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